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Sabers only. Who wins?

Kenobi in a good fight.

Yeah I'm siding with Kenobi here.

Kenobi.

This should be a long impressive battle I'd go Kenobi, but not easily.

Probably not easily, but he is more skilled and his feats are more impressive to me than Ulic's in terms of the force.

I'd say all the available evidence paints a far greater picture of Ulic Qel-Droma but I'd probably get accused of trolling or told "no". Apparently stalemating one of the truly most powerful Sith ever in Exar Kun, or holding off notable Jedi while being cut off from the Force, just aren't on the same level as hanging with the likes of Savage Opress (I think? still haven't seen much of the cartoon) or Ventress.

Originally posted by appletonia
I'd say all the available evidence paints a far greater picture of Ulic Qel-Droma but I'd probably get accused of trolling or told "no". Apparently stalemating one of the truly most powerful Sith ever in Exar Kun
To be fair, that was before Kun got his pimpsaber.


Originally posted by appletonia
just aren't on the same level as hanging with the likes of Savage Opress (I think? still haven't seen much of the cartoon) or Ventress.
What about hanging with the likes of pre-suit Darth Vader or fending off Darth Maul and Savage Opress at the same time?

Kun was an inverter of double bladed saber - unrefined style.

Maul was a master of double bladed saber - the style refined for thousands years, also, lightsaber design improved.
Kenobi fending off Maul + Opress >>>> than anything Kun can bring.

or holding off notable Jedi while being cut off from the Force, just aren't on the same level as hanging with the likes of Savage Opress (I think? still haven't seen much of the cartoon) or Ventress.

Characters that are severed from the Force are considered void in the Force, they cannot be sensed by other Jedi and their moves cannot be anticipated. If anything that notable Jedi was at disadvantage, not Uliq.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kun was an inverter of double bladed saber - unrefined style.

Maul was a master of double bladed saber - the style refined for thousands years, also, lightsaber design improved. I see you haven't bothered reading about how saberstaffs came to prominence or where Maul got almost all of his inspiration from.

Kun was highly refined as even those like Plagueis consider Kun to be the guy when a saberstaff becomes relevant.

Maul is not > Kun by any means if that is what you are suggesting, Kun practically laughed at the dueling abilities of post-DE Luke.

Also Kun thoroughly bossed Vodo twice and Vodo is noted as one of the foremost form V masters and one of the best Guardians of all time.

Kun was never replicated in his mastery of Niman, nor was his personal use of the saberstaff replicated either, he was an all-time great and a natural prodigy.

I'd also like to know why you think saberstaff combat became more refined when it's stated outright that Kun remained one of the best of all time and that he got the design for the Saberstaff from a Sith holocron hundreds of thousands of years old.

Back on-topic however, I don't see Ulic being superior to pre-suit Vader in any manner so there is no reason for me to believe he'd enjoy a better fate than Vader did in similar circumstances.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
To be fair, that was before Kun got his pimpsaber.

Kun was an incredibly powerful Force User and exceptional duelist, saberstaff or otherwise. The fact that he was able to create his own style of combat is also a reflection of his general familiarity and creativity with a lightsaber, which is a skill that's transferrable regardless of whether or not he uses that weapon. The people that Obi-Wan can contend with are nowhere near his level in either lightsaber skill or Force ability.

I should also note that Ulic was badly injured during that fight and thus at a disadvantage.



I have yet to read the ROTS novel but from what I hear, the Anakin that faced Obi-Wan was a conflicted mess, and had been dominating the fight up until the tactical error that saw him defeated. That's not mentioning the unique way they match up due to their master/student relationship and how they new each other as well as they knew themselves, which can often lead to unpredictable outcomes. I'm not convinced that their fight puts Obi-Wan on Anakin's level but rather than it shows how the two specifically match up under a specific set of circumstances.

Either way I would not put pre-suit Vader anywhere near Exar Kun as a duelist. He's never come close to reaching the heights Exar has with the Force, nor has he displayed the technical brilliance with a lightsaber Kun had at that point. Ditto with Maul and Opress, individually or together.

Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma outclass anyone from the movies with a lightsaber imo (and I don't personally consider Obi-Wan a top tier duelist from that era regardless). One's the creator of a lightsaber style/weapon and one of the most godly Force Users ever, the other was able to compete with notable Jedi even after having his Force sensitivity stripped form him, and they're both practically equals. I don't think Yoda or Mace Windu are on their level, much less Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kun was an inverter of double bladed saber - unrefined style.

Except for the fact that it was stated to be superior to the existing 7 lightsaber forms.



The creator of a form of combat will have a far more intimate familiarity with it than the standard master.



The lightsaber forms had already existed for thousands of years by that point, and there is little evidence to suggest that they progressed much further beyond that point.



Maul and Opress are relative pipsqueaks next to the likes of Exar or Ulic.



What on earth are you on about?? It was his ability to use the Force that was taken away from him, not his presence in the Force.

Originally posted by appletonia
Except for the fact that it was stated to be superior to the existing 7 lightsaber forms.
Could you provide evidence or a quote for this please?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Could you provide evidence or a quote for this please?

That I cannot.

Originally posted by appletonia
That I cannot.
Then you can hopefully understand if I do not take your word on this, seeing as I have never heard this claim made by anybody else prior to this.

Sure, but it's hardly crucial to my argument. The fact that he was able to create a form that enabled him to defeat a centuries old battlemaster at all, is either a reflection of the fact that he was so ingenious that he was able to create a great form of combat, or so damn good that he was able to defeat a centuries old battlemaster with an innefectual form of combat. Either scenario depicts him as being pretty godly with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by appletonia
Sure, but it's hardly crucial to my argument. The fact that he was able to create a form that enabled him to defeat a centuries old battlemaster at all, is either a reflection of the fact that he was so ingenious that he was able to create a great form of combat, or so damn good that he was able to defeat a centuries old battlemaster with an innefectual form of combat. Either scenario depicts him as being pretty godly with a lightsaber.
I don't think Kun created a form of lightsaber combat. He innovated Niman.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I see you haven't bothered reading about how saberstaffs came to prominence or where Maul got almost all of his inspiration from.

Kun was highly refined as even those like Plagueis consider Kun to be the guy when a saberstaff becomes relevant.

Maul is not > Kun by any means if that is what you are suggesting, Kun practically laughed at the dueling abilities of post-DE Luke.

Also Kun thoroughly bossed Vodo twice and Vodo is noted as one of the foremost form V masters and one of the best Guardians of all time.

Kun was never replicated in his mastery of Niman, nor was his personal use of the saberstaff replicated either, he was an all-time great and a natural prodigy.

I'd also like to know why you think saberstaff combat became more refined when it's stated outright that Kun remained one of the best of all time and that he got the design for the Saberstaff from a Sith holocron hundreds of thousands of years old.

Back on-topic however, I don't see Ulic being superior to pre-suit Vader in any manner so there is no reason for me to believe he'd enjoy a better fate than Vader did in similar circumstances.

Vodo never dealt with saber stuff. Unknown style and lack of knowledge how to defend against it played against him. Prove he was unparalled in mastery of Niman. He invented it. The style was refined since.

How is post-DE Luke relevant? They never dueled.


That's absolute bullshit.

"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" - Mace Windu.


At that point saber staff style did not existed. It puts at disadvantage anyone who first time fought practitioner of saberstaff.


Good luck proving it.


He was severed from the Force. It means he is void in the Force

"Fencing with Callista challenged Luke as well, because in any other foe, he could use the Force to sense emotional states, to detect subtle changes that foreshadowed impending moves, unexpected attacks, vicious tricks. But Callista was a disconcerting blank to him, an empty spot-which made her a worthy opponent. Although she could not sense his moves or his plans, he couldn't detect hers either." - Darksaber.

Callista was severed from the Force. But not completely, she could use Force again through darkside. Still Luke could not anticipate her.

Well that disproves it...

Mace Windu was not simply making a statement about what is better between the creator of a form and the master of a form, but specifically what was greater between "the creator of a killing form" and "the master of the classic form" in a philosophical discussion about the nature of their chosen forms. The point he was making was that the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu were more dependent on their forms due to the fact that they answered specific weaknesses that they possessed, whereas Obi-Wan possessed no weaknesses that he would need to rely on a form to answer. This was also a discussion tailored around a hypothetical battle against Grievous, and Mace Windu was saying that due to the nature of Grievous's ability to mimic an opponent's form, the simplicity of Soresu was such that Grievous's ability to mimic it wouldn't be quite as effective, and what made Obi-Wan so perfectly suited for Grievous was that his understated ability with Soresu transcended the functional complexity of any form in that particular scenario. Nice try though.

A learner of something will never be more familiar with its workings than the person who created it (provided he did so knowingly, and hasn't forgotten aspects of it); at best you can equal the creator's familiarity but that entails attaining nothing short of perfection and is certainly nothing the standard master can be said to possess.



That's is incorrect, the weapon absolutely existed. Exar Kun simply developed a variant saberstaff and his own unique form of combat.



That's what all the evidence points to. While Maul and Opress perform street level telekinesis Exar Kun has been able to use the Force to dominate thousands of individuals at once, and Ulic was able to remain competetive with him in a fight.



Which is clearly a different condition to the one Ulic faced, as you yourself note that she could still use the darkside. What you're describing, being invisible in the Force but at the same time being able to use the darkside, is not at all similar to what happened to Ulic. It's made pretty clear that losing your connection to the Force doesn't make you invisible in it.

Kun did not create Niman though.

If he even used Niman, it was before he created his saberstaff form, with his regular lightsaber.

Kenobi. Qel-droma for the most part defeated a bunch of chumps like Warb Null. So what if he staelmated Kun? Kun's best feat is beating Vodo-siosk Baas, who's great but I wouldn't hold a candle to someone who's THE master of Soresu, defeated Grivous, etc.

Originally posted by appletonia
If he even used Niman, it was before he created his saberstaff form, with his regular lightsaber.
Prove that that's a different form. It may just be his own personalized fighting style rather than a separate form on its own, it may just be an innovated version of Niman.

It's stated somewhere in a sourcebook that he invented his own style of combat from scratch.

Even if that is the case, I don't see how that is relevant considering that nobody tried to directly copy Kun's style, ergo nobody practices Kun's style in that case for the creator>practitioner viewpoint to be applicable here.

I meant that comparatively speaking, the creator would have a greater familiarity with his form than the standard master would with his form.

I would assume that a style gets more and more refined throughout the years, it's actually said in Arca Jeth's profile that later on Lightsaber forms get better and have better users throughout the ages of the Jedi order.

But at a certain point you'd have to expect diminishing return, and I think after thousands of years or refinement I'm not sure you can expect much further progression.

Kun would destroy Kenobi with his force abilities, as duelists though they are on the same tier at least.

Originally posted by appletonia
But at a certain point you'd have to expect diminishing return, and I think after thousands of years or refinement I'm not sure you can expect much further progression.
The invention of Vaapad is an example.

Was Vaapad definitely a progression in technical swordplay (and I'd argue if anything that would be the exception that proves the rule)?

Well Form VII is the penultimus of saber forms, and Vaapad is the complete Form VII.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vodo never dealt with saber stuff. Unknown style and lack of knowledge how to defend against it played against him. Prove he was unparalled in mastery of Niman. He invented it. The style was refined since.

How is post-DE Luke relevant? They never dueled.
Vodo used a staff himself it just wasn't a lightsaber, nice lowball attempt though.

Also he defeated him earlier with Jar'kai(a very well known technique) as a Padawan...

Because no one except Krayt ever displayed skill even close, the Niman poster-boy as seen in FOUR sourcebooks is Exar Kun.

Because he watched him duel others and called his skill 'quaint'.

Originally posted by appletonia
Well that disproves it...

Mace Windu was not simply making a statement about what is better between the creator of a form and the master of a form, but specifically what was greater between "the creator of a killing form" and "the master of the classic form" in a philosophical discussion about the nature of their chosen forms. The point he was making was that the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu were more dependent on their forms due to the fact that they answered specific weaknesses that they possessed, whereas Obi-Wan possessed no weaknesses that he would need to rely on a form to answer. This was also a discussion tailored around a hypothetical battle against Grievous, and Mace Windu was saying that due to the nature of Grievous's ability to mimic an opponent's form, the simplicity of Soresu was such that Grievous's ability to mimic it wouldn't be quite as effective, and what made Obi-Wan so perfectly suited for Grievous was that his understated ability with Soresu transcended the functional complexity of any form in that particular scenario. Nice try though.

A learner of something will never be more familiar with its workings than the person who created it (provided he did so knowingly, and hasn't forgotten aspects of it); at best you can equal the creator's familiarity but that entails attaining nothing short of perfection and is certainly nothing the standard master can be said to possess.

Any martial art evolves after being introduced. Claiming that inventor of a style will be better than all future practitioners that learned evolved/refined version of the same style is absurd.


He did not invent a form. He just learned to fight with saber staff, which is nothing extraordinary.


That does not prove anything. Sidious did all sort of things that Luke/Mace/Yoda couldn't dream off, doesn't mean he is better than them.


No, she couldn't be invisible in the Force and use darkside at the same time. She was absent in the Force. Darkside was breaking Force severing and at that point Luke could sense her.

It is virtually impossible for a non-sensitive to keep up with a notable Force user in combat. Mandalorians that use lots of dirty tricks and gadgets don't count. There is no way for Uliq being able to fight evenly a Force user, unless that user couldn't sense him as well.

And if you imply that the "notable jedi" could sense Uliq in the Force, you indirectly label him a moron for simply not rag-dolling Uliq around like Desann did to Kyle Katarn.


Nice try. Vodo's stick does not compare to saber stuff. Kun was getting outmatched until he switched to double-bladed saber.

And if defeating Vodo is such an impressive feat, fine. Kenobi easily counters it with far more impressive feats against Opress/Maul and Anakin.

Originally posted by Arhael
Any martial art evolves after being introduced. Claiming that inventor of a style will be better than all future practitioners that learned evolved/refined version of the same style is absurd.

My point was that creating a form is indivative of a comparatively greater understanding of that form (as it was when he created it) then simply mastering a form (as it was when he mastered it). Whether the forms substantially progressed is a seperate issue but you have not provided a particularly compelling argument that they did, whereas the simple fact that they had existed for thousands of years, in times of both war and peace, would suggest that there wasn't exctly all that much room for improvement. There were also no major changes to the manner in which Jedi/Sith operated or the technological or martial capabilities of their adversaries in future generations, so there's nothing to suggest that the forms would have had to have been substantially adapted to changes in the times.

As it stands, Exar Kun was the creator of a form that was stated to be superior to the existing lightsaber forms at the time, and Maul was simply the master of a form that you haven't exactly established was noticeably more advanced than the forms of Exar's time.



That is quite incorrect, he did.



This isn't a simple matter of there being qualitative differences in the things they respectively have done or can do, it's a matter of Exar simply performing at a quantifiably higher level than they have and repeatedly doing things that are quite unprecedented where they never do anything particularly outside the norm. Whether it comes to brilliance with a lightsaber or the scale of their powers, Exar Kun vastly outstrips them.



Either way it sounds like a different technique/condition, as the Sever Force ability has been well documented and it's made very clear that it is simply their ability to use the Force that is diminished.



There are numerous occasions where a notable Force User is bested in combat by a non-Force User without the use of tricks or gadgets or extreme circumstances; refer to a young Malak getting bested by a Mandalorian in a conventional duel in the KOTOR comics as an example. It's never been established that even notably powerful (but not extraordinarily powerful) Jedi/Sith can easily overwhelm a non-Force User with speed alone. It's an advantage but not necessarily a determining one. Technique can make up the difference.

And surely Sylvar would be able to use this blitz worthy speed, whether she could sense Ulic or not? Jedi rely on their ability to sense things in the Force, but it doesn't make them blind to their other senses.



Or maybe an enraged animalistic warrior would simply rather have beaten him down in a more pysically intimate manner that a lightsaber duel allows? Or numerous other reasons?

Originally posted by appletonia
As it stands, Exar Kun was the creator of a form that was stated to be superior to the existing lightsaber forms at the time

Where?

Originally posted by appletonia
Whether it comes to brilliance with a lightsaber or the scale of their powers, Exar Kun vastly outstrips them.

Proof?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where?

That I do not know or I would have provided it.



Scale of powers? Freezing the senate, draining the Massassi, energy blasts the size of small houses that can disintegrate metal.

Originally posted by appletonia
That I do not know or I would have provided it.

So should we assume facts not in evidence as a general practice now or only when it concerns characters/eras that the general public doesn't care about (e.g. Exar Kun, Bane, and all your favorite characters)?

Originally posted by appletonia
Scale of powers? Freezing the senate, draining the Massassi, energy blasts the size of small houses that can disintegrate metal.

And brilliance with a lightsaber?

The facts are in evidence, I just don't know where the evidence is! It's up to you whether you believe me or not, it was somebody called Advent at some other forum that I first recall bringing it up (and at the time I did verify it for myself from some sourcebook or another).

But as I said to dmb, whether it was superior to the forms or not, he was still able to use it to dominate a centuries old battlemaster, which is either a reflection of the fact that he was capable of creating a very advanced form, or was just that damn good that he was able to use an ineffectual form to dominate a centuries old battlemaster (in which case you can only imagine how good he would have been when he fought Ulic and used a credible form).

Either way, stalemating even an injured Ulic Qel-droma, or netting multiple wins against that same centuries old battlemaster while still a padawan (years before the comics he appears in), suggest that his talent/ability vastly outstrips the likes of Maul's.

Originally posted by appletonia
The facts are in evidence, I just don't know where the evidence is! It's up to you whether you believe me or not, it was somebody called Advent at some other forum that I first recall bringing it up (and at the time I did verify it for myself from some sourcebook or another).

You don't seem like a particularly trustworthy fellow. There's something shifty about you.


But as I said to dmb, whether it was superior to the forms or not, he was still able to use it to dominate a centuries old battlemaster, which is either a reflection of the fact that he was capable of creating a very advanced form, or was just that damn good that he was able to use an ineffectual form to dominate a centuries old battlemaster (in which case you can only imagine how good he would have been when he fought Ulic and used a credible form).

Or perhaps that "centuries old battlemaster" just wasn't that good in the grand scheme of things? Or perhaps a reflection of superior Force talent and not necessarily a product of prodigious technical aptitude?



Maul is accredited as high end master of multiple forms and is consistently referred to as one of the most skilled warriors in Sith history. In light of that, your assertions that stalemating Qel-Droma makes one vastly superior to Maul seem pretty empty, especially when there's little to nothing by way of evidence to suggest that that's actually the case.

I don't know whoever gave you that impression, but whoever it was, do not believe her lies.



The likelihood is that a notable and ancient battlemaster is going to be an exceptional duelist; being able to dominate somebody of that stature with an inadequate style is a remarkably impressive feat. And yes, of course it's a demonstration of Force talent rather than technical skill if that is what actually happened, and it's a remarkable display of ability either way.



But let's remind ourselves that we know that Maul is a high end master of multiple forms simply because we know that he is a practitioner of Juyo; the focus is not on Maul but the Juyo form itself, and while it does make it seem like Juyo is a relatively advanced form, by no means does anything indicate that it's some kind of spectacular accomplishment to be able to meet the requirements to start learning the form. Do we have any real evidence that being a high end master of multiple forms is all that great in the grand scheme of things, in the face of pretty much nothing suggesting that it was really all that rare or notable for a Jedi to start practising Juyo?

Also can we be sure that being a high end master of multiple forms was a technical requirement for learning Juyo, or simply a practical requirement that the Jedi Order followed? If it's the latter, we can't really say for sure that Maul was a high end master of multiple forms as he obviously wasn't obligated to follow Jedi conventions.



As a forum we deal almost exclusively with the most skilled or powerful individuals ever. There's still however a pretty massive variance among that group, and Maul based on all available evidence is right at the lower end of it.



Please, Ulic has quite easily the greatest demonstration of technical ability we've ever seen from a Jedi or Sith. Being able to compete with a Jedi in a conventional duel without access to superhuman abilities (let alone having had those abilities and then losing them, and not even being in your physical prime or in a position to regularly train) is something that's almost unheard of and the domain of the few truly most skilled warriors in the Galaxy. In Ulic what we have is quite simply the unique union of one of the most powerful Force Users ever (possibly top 30ish?) with one of the most skilled warriors in the grand scheme of things (not limited to just Force Users, which take up a very tiny, insignificant portion of the galactic population). He's quite possibly the single greatest duelist the Jedi or Sith have ever produced.

Originally posted by appletonia
I don't know whoever gave you that impression, but whoever it was, do not believe her lies.

It's the winning combination of beady eyes and pedophilic mustache.

Originally posted by appletonia
The likelihood is that a notable and ancient battlemaster is going to be an exceptional duelist; being able to dominate somebody of that stature with an inadequate style is a remarkably impressive feat. And yes, of course it's a demonstration of Force talent rather than technical skill if that is what actually happened, and it's a remarkable display of ability either way.

As is often the case with poor Vodo vis a vis other characters is that I'm expected by certain debaters to give the featless wonder the benefit of an extraordinary doubt whereas characters who actually are consistently referred to as exceptional duelists (i.e. Maul, in this case) are received by those same debaters with disproportionate skepticism.

In other words, I'm not feeling particularly generous and your defense hinges on a series of chasm-wide assumptions I'm disinclined to leap.

Originally posted by appletonia
But let's remind ourselves that we know that Maul is a high end master of multiple forms simply because we know that he is a practitioner of Juyo; the focus is not on Maul but the Juyo form itself, and while it does make it seem like Juyo is a relatively advanced form, by no means does anything indicate that it's some kind of spectacular accomplishment to be able to meet the requirements to start learning the form. Do we have any real evidence that being a high end master of multiple forms is all that great in the grand scheme of things, in the face of pretty much nothing suggesting that it was really all that rare or notable for a Jedi to start practising Juyo?

We have more evidence to suggest that than, say, Ulic Qel-Droma being a comparable or superior technicial vis a vis Maul.

Originally posted by appletonia
Also can we be sure that being a high end master of multiple forms was a technical requirement for learning Juyo, or simply a practical requirement that the Jedi Order followed? If it's the latter, we can't really say for sure that Maul was a high end master of multiple forms as he obviously wasn't obligated to follow Jedi conventions.

Do we have reason to believe otherwise?

Originally posted by appletonia
As a forum we deal almost exclusively with the most skilled or powerful individuals ever. There's still however a pretty massive variance among that group, and Maul based on all available evidence is right at the lower end of it.

Based on all available evidence, Ulic doesn't qualify for that bracket at all.

Originally posted by appletonia
Please, Ulic has quite easily the greatest demonstration of technical ability we've ever seen from a Jedi or Sith. Being able to compete with a Jedi in a conventional duel without access to superhuman abilities (let alone having had those abilities and then losing them, and not even being in your physical prime or in a position to regularly train) is something that's almost unheard of and the domain of the few truly most skilled warriors in the Galaxy. In Ulic what we have is quite simply the unique union of one of the most powerful Force Users ever (possibly top 30ish?) with one of the most skilled warriors in the grand scheme of things (not limited to just Force Users, which take up a very tiny, insignificant portion of the galactic population). He's quite possibly the single greatest duelist the Jedi or Sith have ever produced.

Perhaps the Jedi in question is as overrated as Vodo? Seems to be a recurring theme for that era.

Iirc he has accolades calling him among the best of the era, but yeah he has no feats other than accolades. I'd like to think of him as skilled but he went down fast against Exar. He moved his saberstaff rapidly enough to break duracreet though!

That is quite incorrect, he did.

I will point you to wookiepedia for the start. Kun did not invent Niman.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI:_Niman


You are impressed with Kun's rituals, I understand. Doesn't prove he is superior in power or skill. There are sorcerer Sith, there are warrior Sith, neither is superior. Palpatine as of RotS hasn't done anything of note whatsoever, still the most powerful Sith to ever live.

Regardless, Tempest pretty much did the job done.


Whatever way it sounds. Fighting a notable Jedi doesn't put Uliq on level with Kenobi.


State those numerous occasions, I am not aware of any.
Padawan Malak hardly qualifies for a notable Force user as he is still Padawan and Mandalorians use Beskar armor - invulnerable to lightsaber. Which issue was it?


Blitz worthy speed is a metaphorical myth. It's all about precognition and precision of movement. Otherwise Jedi would just blitz Yuzhan Vong with no problem. But that's off topic.

Didn't say anything abut Niman.

As I said, it's not about the arbitrary differences between sorcerers and warriors. It's that Exar has demonstrated the ability to dominate individuals or cause physical damage on a far greater scale, and has demonstrated things of a far more unprecedented nature (they weren't rituals btw). Maul and Opress perform things on a much lower scale, things that have been replicated by numerous people, and that have been vastly outstripped by numerous people. They in no way stand out as powerful Force Users.

ROTS Sidious is not the most powerful Sith to have ever lived; he's a relative chump next to the likes of Exar Kun. DE Sidious is a candidate for most powerful Sith Lord of all time, not ROTS.

Concession accepted.

So you're arguing precognition and not speed? You might think that it should be impossible for a non-Force User to be able to challenge someone with precognitive abilities in a conventional fight, but the fact remains that canon as a whole disagrees with you. For a G-Canon example, refer to Obi-Wan's battle with Jango Fett in AOTC when they engage in a fist fight for a short period; Jango is at times able to block Obi-Wan's blows and land some of his own. If precog was the be all end all as you seem to believe, that wouldn't have been possible.

You ranked Kao Cen Darach above Maul based on the one trailer he was in and said Ulic and SF Malak individually are better than the first 4 combatants they faced in their gauntlet ( 2 of which were Dooku and Vader )

I believe nothing you say.

Is it not possible that Maul, Dooku and Vader are just really weak?

Originally posted by appletonia
As I said, it's not about the arbitrary differences between sorcerers and warriors. It's that Exar has demonstrated the ability to dominate individuals or cause physical damage on a far greater scale, and has demonstrated things of a far more unprecedented nature (they weren't rituals btw).

Proof?

Originally posted by appletonia
Maul and Opress perform things on a much lower scale, things that have been replicated by numerous people, and that have been vastly outstripped by numerous people. They in no way stand out as powerful Force Users.

Proof?

Originally posted by appletonia
ROTS Sidious is not the most powerful Sith to have ever lived; he's a relative chump next to the likes of Exar Kun.

Proof?

Originally posted by appletonia
Is it not possible that Maul, Dooku and Vader are just really weak?

They each have far more going for them by way of feats and accolades than do the likes of Qel-Droma.

Ulic > Maul imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ulic > Maul imo.

Ulic would have stalemated Exar Kun in a fight that would have lasted hours while injured if it hadn't been interrupted (a fight in which Exar Kun would have presumably overpowered Ulic with the Force if he could have), and from the perspective of Aleema there was presumably no substantial difference in the darkside energies they were giving off as she was blown away by both of them. Plus, he was also more powerful than Nomi Sunrider who's one of the most powerful Jedi of all time. He's > all three bro.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They each have far more going for them by way of feats and accolades than do the likes of Qel-Droma.

prove it whore

Originally posted by appletonia
Ulic would have stalemated Exar Kun in a fight that would have lasted hours while injured if it hadn't been interrupted (a fight in which Exar Kun would have presumably overpowered Ulic with the Force if he could have), and from the perspective of Aleema there was presumably no substantial difference in the darkside energies they were giving off as she was blown away by both of them. Plus, he was also more powerful than Nomi Sunrider who's one of the most powerful Jedi of all time. He's > all three bro.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140324041430/p__/protagonist/images/d/dd/Saitama_OK.jpg

Originally posted by appletonia
Didn't say anything abut Niman.

In that case, please, share the name of that mysterious form you are speaking of. I am sure everyone is curious to know.


Mother Talzin restructured Maul's brain and used sorcery to make mechanical legs. Raised undead. Formed in-penetrable barrier and summoned lightning that could insta destroy war machines. Nearly killed Dooku over light years distance. Turned herself into mist, which even the Ones weren't capable of. Did all sort of other unprecedented things I can't be bothered to dig up.

Yet, still could not defeat Windu, who has no comparable feats and pretty much haven't done anything unprecedented to that point. In the same sense nothing puts Exar Kun above Maul or Opress.

Haha. RotS Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith to ever live. DE Sidious just knows more Sorcery and Force Storm, that doesn't mean that he is more powerful at that point, than in RotS.

"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful sith lord in history" - The new essential chronology.

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned." -DESB page 109

As you can see Yoda faced the most powerful Sith in history during RotS. In DE Sidious did not become most powerful, he was most powerful since RotS.


Yes, Jango could block attacks and hit back, thanks for agreeing that there is no such thing as enhanced Force speed. Factors to consider:

1. Jango is unarmed combat expert, Kenobi is not.
2. Kenobi would still outskill and knock Jango out but Jango happened to wear armor, so he shrugged off all the punches sustained.

In case with Uliq. Both him and the other Jedi are trained in lightsaber combat, there is no major skill difference between them. The only logical reason Jedi couldn't win is that he couldn't anticipate him. The only logical reason he engaged in lightsaber combat is that he couldn't use Force against him.

Originally posted by Arhael
there is no such thing as enhanced Force speed.

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Originally posted by Nephthys
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Lol. That's running. It's like Force jumping horizontally. I was talking at attack speed. Jedi/Sith fight at the same speed as normal human, otherwise, all those fights between Force and non-sensitives wouldn't make any sense.

If they can move their legs super fast then why can't they move their arms and the rest of their bodies super fast? Them fighting normal people is explainable as peak human/alien capabilities being faster in Star Wars than they are in real life. It's like in comic books. A real person could never dodge a sniper bullet after its been fired, but normal, unenhanced people can do that in comics. A real person could never match a Jedi's speed. But in Star Wars all bets are off. Because it's fictional.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If they can move their legs super fast then why can't they move their arms and the rest of their bodies super fast? Them fighting normal people is explainable as peak human/alien capabilities being faster in Star Wars than they are in real life. It's like in comic books. A real person could never dodge a sniper bullet after its been fired, but normal, unenhanced people can do that in comics. A real person could never match a Jedi's speed. But in Star Wars all bets are off. Because it's fictional.
Pre Visla, Jango Fett, Yuuzhan Vong and many other characters demonstrated that Jedi are not really faster in actual combat.

Force users evade blaster fire or put up a block before it is shot.
In comics it is more practical to show someone fire first, then image of a Jedi dodging it.

Here is another example with Opress before he became Force sensitive:
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I meant comics as in Batman, bro.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jedi/Sith fight at the same speed as normal human

Lol. No.

Kenobi in a tough fight.

so's your Mom

#burn

As for the speed argument, SW characters are not insanely fast they have super speed but not at high levels like Quicksilver or Flash. They are like Spiderman - Iron Fist super fast, they can blitz regular trained soldiers, but someone like very experienced and very highly trained peak soldiers (example : Wolverine or Black Panther etc.) can tag them for a while. Like Pre Vizsla, Jango Fett, Boba Fett etc.

So they can speedblitz, and even Ahsoka has some speedblitz feats ;

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