Darth Vader vs. Darth Zannah

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King Joker
Which Sith Lord would win in a battle to the death?

Zannah as of DoE

Vader as of RotJ

Setting: Endor

carthage
Vader SLAUGHTERHOUSE

Emperordmb
Zannah with difficulty. Vader has too many emotional problems and inner demons to successfully fend off her illusions.

Trocity
Siding with the Chosen One.

Nalaniel
Zannah.

Sinious
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Vader has too many emotional problems and inner demons to successfully fend off her illusions.

Thats what I thought too. I personally am not sure who is stronger though.

King Joker
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah with difficulty. Vader has too many emotional problems and inner demons to successfully fend off her illusions.

thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by carthage
Vader SLAUGHTERHOUSE
thumb up Spite thread.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nalaniel
Zannah.

carthage
Vader can ragdoll her with TK. Hes an infinitely better duelist, he's far more skilled, he's faster, and his feats are superior across the board. Her illusions apart from affecting Bane (on a nexus), have only affected fodder. Vader DESTROYS her whether its a saber duel or a force battle. Call me when Zannah can collapse cathedrals, crush tie fighters mid flight, telekinetically rip out massive trees, or blow a massive hole in a durasteel door. Zannah would lose to any high tier whether its Revan, Caedus, or Vader

ares834
Vader.

WildBantha88
Vader is a better duelist but it will take time for him to penetrate her defenses. Vader is a more skilled and powerful Tker but Zannah has a lot of magnitude behind her TK so I don't think Vader will be able to just go Force Choke, GG. Zannahs illusions will either have 1 of two effects on Vader, they will break him completely by making him remosful for what he did to padme or else they will make him go super rage monster because Zannah used Padme against him, yeno kinda like the time that he was being plagued by visions of Padme and Vader died and willed himself back to life because he was pissed as ****. Then he blew a guy up and survived for days underground.

Yea if Zannahs illusions don't work she is ****ed.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by carthage
Vader SLAUGHTERHOUSE

AncientPower
Vader as of ROTJ was far more mentally stable than pre-TFU Vader was.

Without Luke Skywalker in the mix, Zannah hasn't got s**t on him mentally.

That being said, that is the only way she could win this fight.

carthage
Which is useless as she had to gather energy to use her illusions as she did when she was getting beaten down by Sarro. It cannot be emphasized enough that he only time Zannahs illusions have worked were on force nexuses, beyond that theyve only affected fodder non force sensitives. Vader would either overpower her (He is stronger than Bane), or he can opt to toss her around with his TK. Zannahs got nothing

NewGuy01
Yeah, the fight would probably be similar on her end to her fight with Bane initially--except this time her opponent is even stronger and more precise. As displayed in her fight with Sarro, she really can't apply her mind-affecting sorceries whilst being driven to her heels, and attempts could honestly be interrupted via Vader's immensely superior TK.

That being said, Vader's inexperience with Sorcery may prove a disadvantage were she able to apply it against him. Vader likely takes a solid majority, but Zannah can reap some wins.

carthage
As if she has the strength to actually capitalize on the (massively off chance) of her illusions working, Vader has taken lightsaber hits before and he can far more easily just ragdoll her than her somehow withstanding his onslaught and prepping herself to use her spells.

He'd pound her into dust.

ares834
You guys are severally underestimating Zannah. She was only partially getting her ass handed to her by Bane before pulling out her (nexus) desu ex machina powers. And don't forgot the time she defended herself against the firestorm. Sure, she may have done it sub-consciously and never performed a force feat on a similar level again but it shows her power damnit!

carthage
Her "Firestorm" feat was a showing of her raw force ability, there is no evidence she can replicate that feat. She isn't in Vader's league at all. She might be in the league of folk like Agen Kolar or Quinlan Vos, but she isn't on the same tier as the great Sith lords.

ares834
stick out tongue

Perhaps I should have added a smilie to make it more clear I was being facetious.

carthage
ily2

ares834
http://media.tumblr.com/98002a3363f016e1a25758a6482d1d68/tumblr_inline_mh0myxpEu71qaigcg.gif

Nargaroth
Vader, but it's not necessarily a stomp, and concerning Zannah's ability to mind rape other people, Vader has easily replicated that feat on a Force sensitive as well:

"Vader stepped closer to him. "I think you will. In fact, I know you will. You are brave; your record makes that clear. You do not fear death." He raised his left hand, index finger slightly extended, as if making a point. "But there are far worse things than mere death ...". And before Nick realized what was going on, the Dark Lord was somehow inside his head, a dark shadow interrupting the flow of his thoughts. The shadow seemed to expand...Nick screamed, and fell into a blackness even more perfect than the eyes of Darth Vader.

He could tell that Rostu had seen or heard something that had nearly stunned him into a vegetative state. Rhinann shuddered, trying not to think about what horrors Vader had imparted to the human. Whatever they had been, they had left him in such shock that the forcecuffs he was wearing seemed almost superfluous. His mind felt like it had been punched full of holes-holes that let conscious thoughts drain from it as fast as they popped into existence."

--Taken from Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight.

The only difference between Vader and Zannah in this regard is that he uses regular TP, while she uses sorcery.

This happened early in his career as a Sith Lord, and he was holding back. The version in this thread is ROTJ Vader, who is certainly a better telepath compared to his early post-Mustafar incarnation so I really doubt it's gonna work on him. And even assuming it would work, Zannah's illusion might only enrage Vader, and in that case, she's dead.

Regardless, Vader wouldn't give her the time to prepare her illusions due to his considerably superior duelling skill, and he could very well duel her and use TK at the same time to avoid that.

Not to mention that, when duelling, he tends to use his powers more often compared to Bane.

Duelling wise, Zannah might be able to defend herself for enough time to avoid a total stomp thanks to her mastery of Soresu, but she'll be overwhelmed eventually.

Nephthys
Kinda makes me wonder why Vader never tried that mindrape on Leia.

Oh and obviously no, Vader doesn't compare at mind stuff.

DarthAnt66
Nah, Vader compares.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kinda makes me wonder why Vader never tried that mindrape on Leia.

Oh and obviously no, Vader doesn't compare at mind stuff.

Because Vader was tring to drain knowledge form her, which is a totally different application of TP, and Leia was stated to have a level of control comparable to that of a Jedi. Not to mention that Vader didn't want to risk destroying the information he sought.

I think he is comparable or equal to her, considering that he easily broke through the mental barriers of Luke, who is also a powerful telepath.

Regardless, he is certainly better than Bane TP wise, and I still honestly don't think Zannah's illusions would work.

Nephthys
Ah, that explains it.

Lol, no. Zannah is much better than Vader.

Bane casually resisted Kaan's mental influence though, and he was dominating hundreds of Sith at once with his mind. Yet Zannah still brought him to his knees with her attack.

DarthAnt66
More like Zannah was send flying backwards from the burst of energy Bane released against it. erm

Nephthys
Which happened after he'd started convulsing on the ground and swinging at illusionary monsters.

DarthAnt66
Then he resists the illusions and due to Zannah's lack of foresight, is sent flying backwards after Bane unleashes an attack.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Regardless, he is certainly better than Bane TP wise, and I still honestly don't think Zannah's illusions would work.
Bane mindraped the Holocron of Andeddu and made off with its greatest secret. And as we learned in Legacy, Andeddu's Holocron actually contains his spirit. So Bane had to hold off the Holocron's efforts to resist him with unwavering constant concentration for several hours while at the same time multitasking with something a thousand times more difficult then slicing a computer network. Do not challenge Bane's willpower.

Nephthys
Haha, those books are such Bane wank material. Drew loves his Gary Sues.

DarthAnt66
The mercenaries and Sirak beg to differ.

ares834
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane mindraped the Holocron of Andeddu and made off with its greatest secret. And as we learned in Legacy, Andeddu's Holocron actually contains his spirit. So Bane had to hold off the Holocron's efforts to resist him with unwavering constant concentration for several hours while at the same time multitasking with something a thousand times more difficult then slicing a computer network. Do not challenge Bane's willpower.

Yeah, it's not like Vader's hasn't willed himself to survive fatal injuries or anything...

carthage
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane mindraped the Holocron of Andeddu and made off with its greatest secret. And as we learned in Legacy, Andeddu's Holocron actually contains his spirit. So Bane had to hold off the Holocron's efforts to resist him with unwavering constant concentration for several hours while at the same time multitasking with something a thousand times more difficult then slicing a computer network. Do not challenge Bane's willpower.

Which has more to do with Karpashy's stupid inconsistent writing/lack of knowledge of the SW universe than any actual consistent showing for Bane thumb up. He also failed in mastering the essence transfer technique, which you conveniently left out when he failed to fully possess Zannah

Emperordmb
Originally posted by carthage
Which has more to do with Karpashy's stupid inconsistent writing/lack of knowledge of the SW universe than any actual consistent showing for Bane thumb up.
Not really, Bane undeniably completely mindraped a holocron that was later confirmed to actually house Andeddu's spirit. Not to mention the fact that Bane has some insanely impressive and consistent mental showings.

Not really sure what makes this feat invalid other than the fact that you don't like it.


Originally posted by carthage
He also failed in mastering the essence transfer technique, which you conveniently left out when he failed to fully possess Zannah
You mean when he successfully initiated the ritual immediately after being exposed to insane amounts of pain far transcending any pain he's ever felt before? The fact that Zannah wasn't possessed by him is more a mental feat for Zannah considering Bane's own extraordinary mental strength has already been pretty much established.

Nargaroth
You mean when he successfully initiated the ritual immediately after being exposed to insane amounts of pain far transcending any pain he's ever felt before? The fact that Zannah wasn't possessed by him is more a mental feat for Zannah considering Bane's own extraordinary mental strength has already been pretty much established.

Unfortunately, he didn't. Bane just drained knowledge from the Holocron, and certainly not with ease, not to mention that Andeddu has no TP feats, and I see no reason to believe otherwise.

IMHO, Vader draining knowledge from Luke (whose TP feats include dominating the mind of an officer from the other side of a facility and probing the minds/emotions of many people at once) with little effort and in a short time is more impressive.

Regardless, Vader wins due to being able to duel Zannah, and bombard her with objects at the same time, which would distract her, preventing her from using her sorcery.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by carthage
Which has more to do with Karpashy's stupid inconsistent writing/lack of knowledge of the SW universe than any actual consistent showing for Bane thumb up. He also failed in mastering the essence transfer technique, which you conveniently left out when he failed to fully possess Zannah

As far as im aware, Karpashyn has only made one bad book and I have read most of his books. And his knowledge of SW is ten fold yours. But that's not hard to do seeing as how ignorant you are.

Emperordmb
Tenfold is a bit of an understatement.

red8
Originally posted by carthage
Vader can ragdoll her with TK. Hes an infinitely better duelist, he's far more skilled, he's faster, and his feats are superior across the board. Her illusions apart from affecting Bane (on a nexus), have only affected fodder. Vader DESTROYS her whether its a saber duel or a force battle. Call me when Zannah can collapse cathedrals, crush tie fighters mid flight, telekinetically rip out massive trees, or blow a massive hole in a durasteel door. Zannah would lose to any high tier whether its Revan, Caedus, or Vader

LOL

The Sith masters of the Rule of Two era > Vader, Dooku, or Revan



Not really a fair analysis since we only see Zannah use her illusions like 3 times.

Zannah was still a young apprentice when she faced Sarro. She was on a Nexus, but Sarro was roided-up on battle meditation.

Set Harth was a fallen Jedi and was definitely force sensitive. Zannah's sorcery left him in a coma for several days.

Zannah was forced to use a weaker illusion on Bane because of the injuries that she suffered. Bane was also completely prepared for her illusion.



Bane, knowing that Zannah would one day use sorcery against him, studied it to defend himself. Despite all of this, he still struggled with Zannah's illusion:



Bane was able to resist and he used what seemed like Force Lightning to knock Zannah back, but despite her injuries, she quickly regained her balance.



Bane and Sarro were both physical powerhouses and Zannah did fine against them in sabers.

She was still very inexperienced at dueling when she fought Sarro, yet she was smart enough to keep Johun alive. Even when she went one-on-one with Sarro, she still managed to hold him off for a while.

When she faced Bane, Bane was at first very aggressive. He tried to overpower her with brute force, but Zannah was able to hold him off. When he realized that he couldn't just power through her defenses, he switched to using more precision.



Zannah was doing just fine against Bane until she tripped on the graves.
Vader isn't bringing anything to the table that Zannah hasn't dealt with.



Zannah is prodigy in TK. As a little girl with no training at all, she was killing Jedi and tearing off limbs. Vader isn't going to be TKing her.


One final thing, Bane was emotionally much more stable than Anakin or Vader ever were. Zannah's illusions would crush Vader.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by red8
LOL

The Sith masters of the Rule of Two era > Vader, Dooku, or Revan



Not really a fair analysis since we only see Zannah use her illusions like 3 times.

Zannah was still a young apprentice when she faced Sarro. She was on a Nexus, but Sarro was roided-up on battle meditation.

Set Harth was a fallen Jedi and was definitely force sensitive. Zannah's sorcery left him in a coma for several days.

Zannah was forced to use a weaker illusion on Bane because of the injuries that she suffered. Bane was also completely prepared for her illusion.



Bane, knowing that Zannah would one day use sorcery against him, studied it to defend himself. Despite all of this, he still struggled with Zannah's illusion:



Bane was able to resist and he used what seemed like Force Lightning to knock Zannah back, but despite her injuries, she quickly regained her balance.



Bane and Sarro were both physical powerhouses and Zannah did fine against them in sabers.

She was still very inexperienced at dueling when she fought Sarro, yet she was smart enough to keep Johun alive. Even when she went one-on-one with Sarro, she still managed to hold him off for a while.

When she faced Bane, Bane was at first very aggressive. He tried to overpower her with brute force, but Zannah was able to hold him off. When he realized that he couldn't just power through her defenses, he switched to using more precision.



Zannah was doing just fine against Bane until she tripped on the graves.
Vader isn't bringing anything to the table that Zannah hasn't dealt with.



Zannah is prodigy in TK. As a little girl with no training at all, she was killing Jedi and tearing off limbs. Vader isn't going to be TKing her.


One final thing, Bane was emotionally much more stable than Anakin or Vader ever were. Zannah's illusions would crush Vader.

1. Vader's TK is above Zannah's by at least a decent degree. Dooku could likely beat her due to being even more skilled than Vader, and because Soresu seems to be weak against Makashi, though I'm not sure about that.

2. Vader also mind raped Force sensitives only once, 20+ years before ROTJ, and while not even attempting to incapacitate Nick Rostu (he had a task for him, so he wouldn't do that). But fair enough, I won't necessarily claim that he is equal to Zannah , though I did it before. However, it could also be argued that Bane was somewhat weakened in that fight.

3. Bane's preparation has no meaning in this context, considering that, by his own word, defense against sorcery based TP is a matter of willpower:


That didn't mean he was unprepared, however. Dark side sorcery was
complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and
even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had
done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only
real counter was the victim's strength of will.


Regular TP , instead, is defended against mainly via mental barriers, at least in its more aggressive applications which means that you can't mentally rape a superior or equal Force user with it.

4.Vader could arguably do that as well.

5.Vader is likely even better than them, and his strenght feats include shattering crystalline pillars while gravely wounded, crushing a stormtrooper's heads, and supporting the weight of a dozen men.

He is also considerably better than them duelling wise, not to the point that he would instantly stomp Zannah, but she stands no chance to last in a duel against him for a long time.

6. Except that duelling wise, he is much better than anyone she has ever faced, and he has mastered a hybrid Djem So style that borrows elements from all combat techniques, which would probaly surprise her.

7. Ragdoll her? No, probably not, but considering that he has Force gripped the Starkiller clone (you know, the same guy who disintegrated half of a 300 mt ship while maintaining a Force shield) years before his prime, I'd doubt that.

And even if I disregarded this example I could argue that Vader performed his best telekinetic feats years or even decades before ROTJ.

Concerning Vader's psychological issues, you don't have to be emotionally stable to have a strong will, so he should be able to resist

The Merchant
Vader-sama takes this.

carthage
Where do you post Nargaroth? Comicvine?

Nargaroth
Yes.

carthage
I see

Nargaroth
Why did you ask?

carthage
You're posting style is superior to the "debaters" here thas why. If you dont mind me asking, who are you on the Vine?

Emperordmb
Hey Carthage, we don't like you, and you evidently don't like us, so why don't you leave here and go to Comicvine so we can all be at peace.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Hey Carthage, we don't like you, and you evidently don't like us, so why don't you leave here and go to Comicvine so we can all be at peace.


Emperordumb, you just fear him and his arguments against Bane.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That'd be all too easy, Emperor. Every action must be as difficult and strenuous as possible.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Emperordumb, you just fear him and his arguments against Bane.
Fear and aggravation are two completely different things. Oh yeah, I don't have 2 middle names BTW.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That'd be all too easy, Emperor. Every action must be as difficult and strenuous as possible.
Such is the nature of trolls... such is the nature of Carthage.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Hey Carthage, we don't like you, and you evidently don't like us, so why don't you leave here and go to Comicvine so we can all be at peace.

thumb up

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Emperordumb, you just fear him and his arguments against Bane.

So we're stooping down to the level of 4th graders now? okay how about...hmm

Sidi-Ass 66? Yeah i feel like an imbecile by pulling such a childish insult. i mean geez, talk about how the mighty have fallen. once perhaps you were a respected intellectual and now you have gone so low, that you defend a troll and become one yourself. keep hiding behind that whole "defending him because TOR wank" speech not buying it, you're clearly trying to goad people and as such you yourself are a troll. oh how the not-so mighty have fallen.

SIDIOUS 66
Shut up. You fear him.

And you make no damn sense.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Such is the nature of trolls... such is the nature of Carthage.

No. Carthage is the physical avatar of our Lord Nihilus, so that he may appear as one of the PT era, but in reality he is preparing for our master's arrival. To destroy us suddenly, and without us noticing.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Shut up. You fear him.
I do not fear him nor should I.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And you make no damn sense.
What?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I could easily solve this conundrum you two appear to have. But that wouldn't be fun, would it?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
thumb up



So we're stooping down to the level of 4th graders now? okay how about...hmm

Sidi-Ass 66? Yeah i feel like an imbecile by pulling such a childish insult. i mean geez, talk about how the mighty have fallen. once perhaps you were a respected intellectual and now you have gone so low, that you defend a troll and become one yourself. keep hiding behind that whole "defending him because TOR wank" speech not buying it, you're clearly trying to goad people and as such you yourself are a troll. oh how the not-so mighty have fallen.


I'm glad that you at least considered me mighty and that you respected me, while I barely noticed you.

Emperor is constantly on my case for someone calling someone out on BS or for defending my son, so I'm giving him the attention he craves from me. Get over it the insult wasn't directed at you.

Nephthys
So mad.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm glad that you at least considered me mighty and that you respected me, while I barely noticed you.

Emperor is constantly on my case for someone calling someone out on BS or for defending my son, so I'm giving him the attention he craves from me. Get over it the insult wasn't directed at you.
http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/54119125.jpg

appletonia
Why do you keep on calling carthage your son, Sids?? Like, it's really delightfully bizarre lol.

carthage
Everyone calm down and look at the semi nude picture of Neph in the Yoda thread

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Emperordmb
What?


That's what I said.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's what I said.
I have no idea what you are referring to when you say I make no damn sense.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Nephthys
So mad.

His infatuation with his own ego, and by extension that of Lord Sidious, sparks him to the depths of madness.

It also lets me take notes on how to enhance mine. http://r14.imgfast.net/users/1415/38/33/54/smiles/512814154.png

appletonia
Originally posted by carthage
Everyone calm down and look at the semi nude picture of Neph in the Yoda thread

And listen to some sweet tunes, am i right?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I have no idea what you are referring to when you say I make no damn sense.


Then I suggest you go back and look at your first response to me in this thread and my second response to you in this thread.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Then I suggest you go back and look at your first response to me in this thread and my second response to you in this thread.
What the fact that you failed to realize that there is no U in my initials?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
http://r14.imgfast.net/users/1415/38/33/54/smiles/2174090790.gif

He doesn't know that the "dmb" in your name is a set of initials, Emperor. Therefore he didn't get your "two middle names" part.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
http://r14.imgfast.net/users/1415/38/33/54/smiles/2174090790.gif

He doesn't know that the "dmb" in your name is a set of initials, Emperor. Therefore he didn't get your "two middle names" part.
Eh... he didn't understand something, so I had to explain it to him.

I do the same thing all the time with his son.

My hope here is that, unlike his son, he will actually understand what I am trying to explain to him.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh... he didn't understand something, so I had to explain it to him.

I do the same thing all the time with his son.

My hope here is that, unlike his son, he will actually understand what I am trying to explain to him.

Oh, he understands. A great, many, things.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm glad that you at least considered me mighty and that you respected me, while I barely noticed you.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2ksf19WPO1r4oap7o1_500.gif

And don't kid yourself Mr. Internet tough guy #3. i don't respect or admire you - don't insult me by implying that, i don't respect fools, whelps, imbeciles or trolls.
Hopefully you can - at the very least, understand that.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2ksf19WPO1r4oap7o1_500.gif

And don't kid yourself Mr. Internet tough guy #3. i don't respect or admire you - don't insult me by implying that, i don't respect fools, whelps, imbeciles or trolls.
Hopefully you can - at the very least, understand that.
thumb up

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2ksf19WPO1r4oap7o1_500.gif

And don't kid yourself Mr. Internet tough guy #3. i don't respect or admire you - don't insult me by implying that, i don't respect fools, whelps, imbeciles or trolls.
Hopefully you can - at the very least, understand that.
#brapsfired

King Joker
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2ksf19WPO1r4oap7o1_500.gif

And don't kid yourself Mr. Internet tough guy #3. i don't respect or admire you - don't insult me by implying that, i don't respect fools, whelps, imbeciles or trolls.
Hopefully you can - at the very least, understand that.

Amazing GIF, Xtasy.

DarthAnt66
Let's all laugh at S66 while he cries and runs away.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Let's all laugh at S66 while he cries and runs away.
Sounds like a plan. thumb up

carthage
Im already crying

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
No, Carthage. Do not cry. Do not run. You are the conduit through which the Lords Sidious and Nihilus channel their power. Allow them to destroy your enemies atop a pile of blood and meat.

carthage
Does this mean I can hang out with cool kids like Sinus and Emperordmb?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
No. Destroy them. Unleash the power of the dark masters within yourself. DEW IT!

DarthAnt66
You sound mad gay right now tbh.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The plan is working. Good.

carthage
Ant arent you married to a dude?

Sinious
Originally posted by carthage
Does this mean I can hang out with cool kids like Sinus and Emperordmb?

Sinious*

And no.

carthage
Its Sinus and yes.

red8
Originally posted by Nargaroth
1. Vader's TK is above Zannah's by at least a decent degree.

I'll concede that Zannah is largely an unknown and that Vader has better feats. I'm not convinced that Vader's TK is above Zannah's by "a decent degree" though.



Bane and Zannah are both technically skilled duelists. Bane trained under the battlemaster Kas'im and was later able to out-duel him until Kas'im switched to a form that Bane was unfamiliar with. Bane tried to use multiple forms against Zannah and tried to use tactics that she was unfamiliar with. Despite this, she held her own against him and he was unable to penetrate her defenses until she tripped on the graves.

Bane and Zannah are also very fast and have better force feats (than Dooku).



Are you basing this off of Dooku's performance against Kenobi?

Either way, Bane first tried to overpower Zannah with his brute strength and aggressiveness. I would assume he was using Djem-So at this point.

When he realized that he could not break her defenses like that, he switched to using more precision. The description of his new tactics sounded a lot like Makashi. That didn't work either.

Then Bane tried to be random and unpredictable and tried to use tactics that Zannah was unfamiliar with. This could have been more Djem-so and Makashi, or it could have been something like Niman or Juyo. This didn't work either. She held her own until she tripped on the grave.



I only know Nick from Shatterpoint, but I don't remember him being all that impressive. Admittingly, Sett Harth isn't all that impressive either, but at least he had some Jedi training. Zannah was casually owning Harth.



People who argue this usually use the points that Bane is older and had been drugged and tortured.

Bane may have been older, but he was also much more skilled. He also moved much faster than Zannah had ever seen him move.

Earlier in DoE, Bane was upset because he thought Zannah was waiting for him to become old and weak. Once he got to Ambria though, Bane did not seem to have any qualms about dueling Zannah for the mantle.

Judging by the description of how Bane performed during the battle, I do not think the torture and drugging bothered Bane at this point. Bane is just that tough.



If you ready yourself for an attack, your willpower to resist it is stronger than if you're caught by surprise. Zannah also did not use a fully powered illusion on him.



Bane was a comparable force user and yet Zannah's (weakened) illusions still had a profound effect on him. When a younger Zannah fought the battle-meditated Sarro, I would imagine he was at a minimum comparable to Zannah in force power at the time.



I don't think he'd do any better against her illusions than Bane did. In fact, I think he would do worse.



Vader is physically even stronger than either of them. My point is that Zannah has experience against and can do just fine handling raw strength that is magnitudes beyond her own.



Vader is definitely better than Sarro, but I don't see him being above Bane.



As stated earlier, Zannah handled Bane's surprises just fine. Bane also used multiple forms against her.



As stated earlier, I conceded that Vader has better feats.



It wasn't just Bane's willpower, Bane had overcome his fears. Fear is why the Jedi council was hesitant about training Anakin. Fear is what ultimately caused Anakin to lose his wife and fall to the Darkside. And after he met Luke, there was conflict. To me, it seems like Zannah's sorcery would be quite effective against him.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by King Joker
Amazing GIF, Xtasy.

Lol, gotta love TLoK and their .gif worthy moments wink

carthage
Pt I



Not sure what's so funny here, Bane is technically a product of the Banite sith line. He is also more powerful than any of the Sith pre-Tenebrous as they lack feats to compare.







Set Harth is a half trained Jedi knight who is fodder compared to anyone Vader fought



Source for her using a weaker illusion? She had a nexus to draw upon in Ambria that made her spells/tendrils more powerful than they were when she used them on non force sensitives. She doesn't have them in this fight.



Again she drew upon the Ambrian nexus for that, if she fought Bane on neutral ground she'd have the same difficulties gathering the energy while she was getting beaten down by Bane. Vader is faster and stronger and as this is on neutral ground, she won't have the chance to prep she'll get pulverized.



He knocked her back with his martial attacks not the force iirc.



That's cool. Vader is more powerful than Bane, and is far more powerful than fodder like Sarro. Bane's only notable strength feat is lifting a durasteel door which Vader has replicated:





Not sure what's unfair here none of the Jedi are particularly noteworthy, and Zannah still had an advantage in the nexus whereas the Jedi would've been hampered by the darkside energy if Karpashyn knew how to write. Regardless, Sarro is featless and Zannah only "beat" him because Johun ****ed up the rhythm of battle. Vader is considerably more powerful than Johun, and its noted that Zannah required time to prep her illusions in order to use them.










Vader doesn't use FL and his TK is immeasurably more powerful than Bane's, he can just ragdoll her whereas he had trouble overpowering her completely and with his force abilities





http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3919134-2169209508-21391.jpg

He's supported the weight of a dozen stormtroopers

-
Source: "Galaxy Of Fear: Army Of Terror"

Vader has hurled a droid halfway across a lab while still injured from his duel on Mustafar



Vader has smashed a crystal pillar while injured

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3919133-7319964808-21391.jpg

carthage
PT II Telekinetic/str showings



Vader has also smashed the armored helmet of a Stormtrooper with ease.


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3997377-star+wars+014-012.jpg

To summarize, Sarro is nowhere near as powerful as Vader, and Vader's showings eclipse Bane' in quality and quantity. Vader can easily overpower Zannah.



He's bring superior strength, superior speed, and superior skill. Nothing Zannah has ever dealt with in terms of feats.



Zannah's best feats with TK are blowing up her cousins hand, snapping a neck, and that's really it. Those were all feats that she accomplished as a child, and she never replicated them as they were more indications of her raw power int he force. Vader's TK feats may as well be in another universe when compared to Zannah's crappy showings


Vader lifts and hurls a Y wing

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914815-1111021904-32568.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914816-1678885890-32568.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914817-2429128559-32568.jpg

Vader collapses a cathedral


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3916125-5671586869-39148.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3916126-9345749116-39148.jpg

Vader has crushed a TIE fighter in mid-flight

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914866-2345742593-32568.jpg

He's hurled a Stone table at Starkiller with enough force to destroy pillars and knock him back



-The Force Unleashed

He's hurled Missiles



-The Force Unleashed

carthage
He's thrown destroyed platforms and cloning tubes at him



-The Force unleashed 2

He's shattered Aluminum Densecris, which was thought 'unbreakable'



-Death Star

He's crushed a droid more massive than himself

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914892-3931071268-32568.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914894-5131970584-32568.jpg

He's blown through ****ing durasteel

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914897-7490859768-32569.jpg

Here he sends a man flying along with debris

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3926393-2867280763-33344.jpg

He's hurled a Massive boulder than killed multiple people

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914905-0383933390-32569.jpg

With a casual wrist move he uproots a tree and kills a massive creature

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914929-9082178269-33627.jpg

He's sent thirty people airborne

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914942-7695568615-33344.jpg

Vader collapses a massive tree

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3977266-7857445424-37000.jpg

Vader hurls a ship

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3919626-9487786661-21391.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3919629-2103616723-21391.jpg

He's also collapsed ceilings, hurled other massive beasts with a flick of his wrist, choked out Starkiller, etc. Vader is so far above Zannah in telekinesis I'm amazed you're even challenging the point. Vader has more than enough requisite power to choke Zannah out, ragdoll her, or oneshot her in any fashion before she can reaxt

Vader is also faster, more durable, and more powerful in the force than Zannah is. Her illusions won't affect him, as he can simply overpower and kill her with TK.

Zannah has only beaten Set Harth. Vader has defeated Luke Skywalker ESB, Sha Koon, Dark Woman, beaten a Darth Maul doppelganger, beaten Roan Shryne, Defeated 5 Jedi while barely adjusting to his suit, beaten Celeste Morne, fought evenly with Old Ben Kenobi.

I can post more feats, but I'd be wasting my time really. Vader is demonstrably above Zannah and sits among the most powerful Sith.

The Merchant
Yeah Vader's TK feats shows overall he's way stronger than Zannah in force power. His Lightsaber skills is also above hers, since he fused the 7 forms to make his own deadly form. I don't see how Zannah can contend besides her Sith Sorcery, which is nifty and all but I think Vader would just crush her before she can pull anything off.

carthage
Vader's TK is only surpassed by his grandson (Caedus), The Emperor, and Darth Plagueis. Zannah is thoroughly outclassed as a swordsman, as for her sorcery she struggled to use her spells when Sarro and Bane were on her pounding her. Vader is faster and more powerful than her, she won't get a chance at all.

carthage
Bane has no dueling feats aside from fighting evenly with Darth Zannah and beating a featless trainee Sirrak. His victory over Kas'im was entirely circumstantial due to drawing on the Lehon nexus to collapse the temple, and he was losing the saber portion of the duel. Vader would lolstomp Kas'im, and has infinitely superior dueling feats to either of them.



Lolnope. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914756-0620353765-32566.jpg

He's killed Roan Lands faster than Ferus Olin could perceive



Source: "Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon"

He's moved his saber faster than the eye could travel



Source: "Splinter Of The Mind's Eye"

He's moved his saber fast enough to form a blue blur



Source: "Splinter Of The Mind's Eye"

He's fought invisibly fast, in a blur, etc.

He's also appeared fast enough as to appear as though he materialized from thin air

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3984121-6627198025-39826.jpg

Zannah and Bane have Zero speed feats to compare to Vader. Bane couldn't even react fast enough to deflect every slow moving water drop in his "rain feat", and Zannah has no notable speed feats at all.

Nephthys
None of those TK feats are significantly more powerful than Zannah's capabilities. Bane wasn't above her and she smashed him into a wall despite him charging up his power. And saying Vader is faster than her is laughable. Don't buy into Carthage's BS guys, he's utterly worthless.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by carthage
Its Sinus and yes.

I'm afraid you don't even know what a sinus is.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by red8
I'll concede that Zannah is largely an unknown and that Vader has better feats. I'm not convinced that Vader's TK is above Zannah's by "a decent degree" though.

It certainly is. Vader's feats from decades before ROTJ exceed Zannah's feats as a child, not to mention that, in her case, they seem to be more showings of potential than power, not unlike Mortis Anakin's feats.

By DOE or even ROT she would most likely have achieved that potential (meaning that she could willingly replicate them), but it's still not enough to put her on a comparable level to Vader, who has also performed his best TK showings years or even decades before ROTJ.

Originally posted by red8
Bane and Zannah are both technically skilled duelists. Bane trained under the battlemaster Kas'im and was later able to out-duel him until Kas'im switched to a form that Bane was unfamiliar with. Bane tried to use multiple forms against Zannah and tried to use tactics that she was unfamiliar with. Despite this, she held her own against him and he was unable to penetrate her defenses until she tripped on the graves.

Of course they are, and that's why I said that Zannah wouldn't be instantly stomped (Bane also wouldn't). It's not just about switching forms. Vader's style borrows elements from all forms, while Zannah uses classical Soresu. Regardless, Vader is just much more skilled than them, especially as of ROTJ, and Bane's inability to break through her defenses doesn't mean that Vader couldn't.

Originally posted by red8
Bane and Zannah are also very fast and have better force feats (than Dooku).

Agreed (at least in Bane's case, but I'm not sure about Zannah), though Dooku's superiority in duelling skill is considerably more gaping than is theirs in Force Power. And given the fact that, in most cases, skill with the lightsaber is more important than power, unless there is a really huge difference between two opponents, I still think that Dooku could win a majority against them, but this is off topic.



Originally posted by red8
Are you basing this off of Dooku's performance against Kenobi?

Either way, Bane first tried to overpower Zannah with his brute strength and aggressiveness. I would assume he was using Djem-So at this point.

When he realized that he could not break her defenses like that, he switched to using more precision. The description of his new tactics sounded a lot like Makashi. That didn't work either.

Then Bane tried to be random and unpredictable and tried to use tactics that Zannah was unfamiliar with. This could have been more Djem-so and Makashi, or it could have been something like Niman or Juyo. This didn't work either. She held her own until she tripped on the grave.

As I said, I'm not sure about that, but no, I wasn't talking about Dooku's performance against Obi-wan, as the former was unable to penetrate the latter's defenses anyways.


Originally posted by red8
I only know Nick from Shatterpoint, but I don't remember him being all that impressive. Admittingly, Sett Harth isn't all that impressive either, but at least he had some Jedi training. Zannah was casually owning Harth.

I never stated that Nick is impressive, only that he is a Force sensitive, which would automatically give him mental defenses against TP. The difference is that Zannah was in her prime, while Vader was far from it, and they were both holding back, but Zannah's application should still be superior due to being able to affect Bane's mind.




Originally posted by red8
People who argue this usually use the points that Bane is older and had been drugged and tortured.

Bane may have been older, but he was also much more skilled. He also moved much faster than Zannah had ever seen him move.

Earlier in DoE, Bane was upset because he thought Zannah was waiting for him to become old and weak. Once he got to Ambria though, Bane did not seem to have any qualms about dueling Zannah for the mantle.

Judging by the description of how Bane performed during the battle, I do not think the torture and drugging bothered Bane at this point. Bane is just that tough.

I just read the battle again, and no, he wasn't weakened and there is no indication of it in the battle, so I think I'll concede this point.



Originally posted by red8
If you ready yourself for an attack, your willpower to resist it is stronger than if you're caught by surprise. Zannah also did not use a fully powered illusion on him.

Bane was a comparable force user and yet Zannah's (weakened) illusions still had a profound effect on him. When a younger Zannah fought the battle-meditated Sarro, I would imagine he was at a minimum comparable to Zannah in force power at the time.

I don't think he'd do any better against her illusions than Bane did. In fact, I think he would do worse.

Sorcery based TP is not defended against by being comparable in power, unlike regular TP, but by having enough strenght of will. Which indicates that your opponent's power doen't have that much value.

And Sarro was also affected by that nexus, so he was both amped and weakened and most likely in a neutral state during that battle, considering that these two elements would cancel out. This means that Zannah was amped to a greater degree.

You might also take into account the fact that Vader can willingly concentrate on his rage for up to 2 minutes in Shadows Of The Empire to heal himself:

"Vader took a deep breath, blew it out, then took another. The energies of the dark side filled him, and he could once again breathe as a normal man did. He focused his anger. It was not right that he be crippled, that he couldn't do this all the time. It was... not... right! The healing energies held. As long as he could maintain his indignation, his lungs and breathing passages stayed open and clear. He fed the fires of his rage with the unfairness of a galaxy that would not let him be whole. Still the healing energies held. He fought the sense of relief he felt. Fought it and kept his anger pure. And still they held. Almost two minutes now. A new record."

Now, this is a healng feat, but to me it suggests that Zannah's illusions might only enrage him, allowing him to resist and push her back. After all, Force Rage is one of the most important assets in Vader's arsenal, moreso than Bane, who seems to be more controlled in this regard.

Furthermore, in the Lost Command, Saro's illusions mostly pissed Vader off, and he was certainly much more troubled than he was in ROTJ (disregarding his battle against Luke).

Originally posted by red8
Vader is physically even stronger than either of them. My point is that Zannah has experience against and can do just fine handling raw strength that is magnitudes beyond her own.

I never claimed that she wouldn't handle Vader well because of strenght, but because of the latter's skill.

Originally posted by red8
Vader is definitely better than Sarro, but I don't see him being above Bane.

Vader is certainly much better than Bane duelling wise. Contending with Darth Maul, one of the most skilled duellists in Sith history by both accolades and feats (though Vader nearly lost, to be fair), beating groups of Jedi before even getting used to his armor, beating the Dark Woman, easily defeating multiple Jedi on Kashykk atc. are all feats that far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done.

And this is without considering the fact that he became far more skilled between ANH and ROTJ. Keeping in mind that all of the above mentioned feats were performed before and up to ANH.

There are also several accolades that support this point, like being identified as incredibly skilled, being one of the best duellists of all time (though this could be ambiguous) and being stated as an unparalleled duellist.


Originally posted by red8
It wasn't just Bane's willpower, Bane had overcome his fears. Fear is why the Jedi council was hesitant about training Anakin. Fear is what ultimately caused Anakin to lose his wife and fall to the Darkside. And after he met Luke, there was conflict. To me, it seems like Zannah's sorcery would be quite effective against him.

I really doubt she would be able to use them, however. Against Bane, she was pressed enough that she had to take her time to recover after Bane was put under the illusions.

Against Vader, she would be in far greater trouble due to skill disparity, which would give Vader more time than Bane to face the illusions. Regardless, Vader can draw on his rage willingly to handle Zannah's sorcery.

And this would be the case only IF she managed to use her illusions against him, which is unlikely to happen, because Vader can duel her and at the same time throw debris at her from all directions without gesturing like he did against Roan Shryne, or summon winds via Alter Environment for further distraction.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Vader is certainly much better than Bane duelling wise. Contending with Darth Maul, one of the most skilled duellists in Sith history by both accolades and feats (though Vader nearly lost, to be fair), beating groups of Jedi before even getting used to his armor, beating the Dark Woman, easily defeating multiple Jedi on Kashykk atc. are all feats that far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done.

And this is without considering the fact that he became far more skilled between ANH and ROTJ. Keeping in mind that all of the above mentioned feats were performed before and up to ANH.

There are also several accolades that support this point, like being identified as incredibly skilled, being one of the best duellists of all time (though this could be ambiguous) and being stated as an unparalleled duellist.

I don't think you're giving Bane his fair shake here while giving Vader some undeserved props. Vader basically lost to Maul and none of the other stuff you mentioned "far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done". Beating a bunch of fodder Jedi isn't that impressive. Bane also fought with one of, if not the most skilled Sith in history and would have defeated him outright were it not for Kas'im having engineered a weakness into his training. And Bane fought off a BM-enhanced Raskta Lsu, who was also unbelievably skilled.

Bane is also quite a bit faster and more agile than Vader is and is phenomenally skilled in his own right in basically all forms. Frankly, Bane would defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel quite handily.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think you're giving Bane his fair shake here while giving Vader some undeserved props. Vader basically lost to Maul and none of the other stuff you mentioned "far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done". Beating a bunch of fodder Jedi isn't that impressive. Bane also fought with one of, if not the most skilled Sith in history and would have defeated him outright were it not for Kas'im having engineered a weakness into his training. And Bane fought off a BM-enhanced Raskta Lsu, who was also unbelievably skilled.

Bane is also quite a bit faster and more agile than Vader is and is phenomenally skilled in his own right in basically all forms. Frankly, Bane would defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel quite handily.

He didn't lose to Maul, and all I said is that he contended with him for a long time, and NEARLY lost, which is true, and Maul himself is a far superior duellist than Zannah and Bane, especially the former, by both feats and accolades.

And if you're referring to Kas'im, lol, you're basically telling me that he is one of the best just because Bane said so. That's nothing but his point of view, and he has no knowledge on other duellists of previous eras, especially Exar Kun, who would stomp Kas'im.

Maul, on the other hand was identified as one of the most skilled by objective, out of universe sources.

Vader improved a lot in skill after his duel with Maul, therefore he is more skilled than Bane by an even greater degree, so how the latter would be able able to even last against ROTJ Vader is honestly beyond me. Am I saying that he would be utterly stomped? No, but he isn't even close in this regard either.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nargaroth
He didn't lose to Maul, and all I said is that he contended with him for a long time, and NEARLY lost, which is true, and Maul himself is a far superior duellist than Zannah and Bane, especially the former, by both feats and accolades.

And if you're referring to Kas'im, lol, you're basically telling me that he is one of the best just because Bane said so. That's nothing but his point of view, and he has no knowledge on other duellists of previous eras, especially Exar Kun, who would stomp Kas'im.

Maul, on the other hand was identified as one of the most skilled by objective, out of universe sources.

Vader improved a lot in skill after his duel with Maul, therefore he is more skilled than Bane by an even greater degree, so how the latter would be able able to even last against ROTJ Vader is honestly beyond me. Am I saying that he would be utterly stomped? No, but he isn't even close in this regard either.

And I didn't say he lost to Maul, I said he basically lost to Maul. Maul disarmed him and had him on his knees while preparing for the killing stroke. And LMAO at Maul being a superior duelist to Bane and Zannah. Both would handle him rather easily.

No, I'm not telling you that. I said that he was one of the best and didn't elaborate on it. I will now though. I'm not saying he is one of the best because Bane said so. He is one of the best because he completely mastered all the lightsaber forms and stretched his mastery to utter perfection with decades of obsessive refinement. He also invented many of the sequences and techniques taught in the academy. Kas'im's lightsaber skill cannot be questioned, his mastery of lightsaber combat was described as being more complete than that of nearly anyone else in the mythos. Only his lack of exceptional power in the Force prevents him from being a true titan.

I don't care if Maul was. Being one of the most skilled matters very little, since basically every notable combatant discussed on these boards qualifies for that description.

Ridiculous. Bane is more powerful and significantly faster and more agile. He'd beat Vader with perhaps some effort. The fact that Vader improved his skill matters very little, he simply cannot compete for very long against a being of Bane's caliber. That Bane is also an exceptional duelist only cements his victory. The idea that Vader is far above Bane in lightsaber combat is utterly laughable, no offense. And you're ignoring the fact that Bane also improved his ability after his fight with Kas'im. So Vader refining his skill isn't exactly something unique to him.

BTW you were wrong earlier, power is more important than skill.

Arhael
They would beat someone who went toe to toe with Sidious rather easily? laughing

appletonia
@ Neph:

thumb up



And even then Kas'im's hardly weak; I'd certainly argue that he's solidly more powerful than Maul.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
They would beat someone who went toe to toe with Sidious rather easily? laughing

Yes. Sidious was playing with him, bro.

Arhael
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Sidious was playing with him, bro.
Good luck proving it.

appletonia
Originally posted by Arhael
Good luck proving it.

How about you start providing evidence for your claims buddy.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
Good luck proving it.

Well the fact that he beat him in the first second then allowed he and his brother to compete while laughing his ass off sure indicates it. As does Sidious pushing back Maul in a saberlock with one hand while pushing his brother back with his left hand and chuckling.

Do you think Obi-Wan or Ventress could compete with Sidious? They can't and they're both on Maul's level.

Arhael
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well the fact that he beat him in the first second then allowed he and his brother to compete while laughing his ass off sure indicates it. As does Sidious pushing back Maul in a saberlock with one hand while pushing his brother back with his left hand and chuckling.

Do you think Obi-Wan or Ventress could compete with Sidious? They can't and they're both on Maul's level.
Burden of proof is still on you. Sidious did the same to Yoda at beginning and allowed him to recover, doesn't mean he was playing with Yoda after.


I have nothing to prove here. Maul is shown fighting Sidious evenly at the end - it is self evident. Nephthys dismissed it with an assumption.

ares834
Originally posted by carthage
Vader's TK is only surpassed by his grandson (Caedus), The Emperor, and Darth Plagueis. Zannah is thoroughly outclassed as a swordsman, as for her sorcery she struggled to use her spells when Sarro and Bane were on her pounding her. Vader is faster and more powerful than her, she won't get a chance at all.

thumb up

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Nephthys
And I didn't say he lost to Maul, I said he basically lost to Maul. Maul disarmed him and had him on his knees while preparing for the killing stroke. And LMAO at Maul being a superior duelist to Bane and Zannah. Both would handle him rather easily.

Then it certainly won't be a problem to show me feats from Bane and Zannah that escalate them to Maul's tier, right?. Did they defeat duellists on Qui Gon's level (who was also stated by objective sources as one of the most skilled duellists in the Jedi Order's history)? No. Did they contend with someone as skilled as TCW Obi-Wan? No.

And the fact that Maul was giving the killing strike doesn't change that Vader contended with him for a long time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm not telling you that. I said that he was one of the best and didn't elaborate on it. I will now though. I'm not saying he is one of the best because Bane said so. He is one of the best because he completely mastered all the lightsaber forms and stretched his mastery to utter perfection with decades of obsessive refinement. He also invented many of the sequences and techniques taught in the academy. Kas'im's lightsaber skill cannot be questioned, his mastery of lightsaber combat was described as being more complete than that of nearly anyone else in the mythos. Only his lack of exceptional power in the Force prevents him from being a true titan.

There are several examples of duellists who mastered all, or almost all lightsaber forms and were defeated/challenged by people who had mastered only one.

Dooku defeated Sora Bulq while also duelling Tholme, yet the Count concentrated mainly on mastery of Makashi. He also was stated to be an equal with Mace and a peer to Yoda, who had mastered all forms. Anakin defeated Cin Drallig, who had mastered almost all the lightsaber forms, and was the battlemaster. Having mastered many forms means much less than skill and feats, and some of these people probably aren't even top 20 when it comes to skill.

Not only that, but Maul mastered Juyo, which requires a high-level mastery of multiple forms, while Bane mastered Djem-So and was only proficient in Soresu, so I can very well use this argument against you.

Origin
ally posted by Nephthys
I don't care if Maul was. Being one of the most skilled matters very little, since basically every notable combatant discussed on these boards qualifies for that description.

It doesn't change the fact that Maul has this accolade and the feats to support it, while most others don't. You're also not considering the fact that Maul's accolade likely also includes many duellists from after Bane's time (which is still the ROTE era anyways)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ridiculous. Bane is more powerful and significantly faster and more agile. He'd beat Vader with perhaps some effort. The fact that Vader improved his skill matters very little, he simply cannot compete for very long against a being of Bane's caliber. That Bane is also an exceptional duelist only cements his victory. The idea that Vader is far above Bane in lightsaber combat is utterly laughable, no offense. And you're ignoring the fact that Bane also improved his ability after his fight with Kas'im. So Vader refining his skill isn't exactly something unique to him.

BTW you were wrong earlier, power is more important than skill.

Dooku is an equal with Mace, and is faster than him (disregarding the gargantuan amplification the latter had aginst Palpatine), yet he is his equal, not superior, and strenght and speed aren't that important, unless there is a huge difference between two opponents.

I have yet to see what makes Bane so much faster than Vader, who has moved so fast that he seemed to teleport, speedblitzed Jedi while still getting used to his suit, displayed good agility on multiple occasions, moved his lightsaber as a blur, etc. Thhe difference is not gaping at all.

The fact that Vader VASTLY improved in skill matters more than Bane being implied to have improved, while Vader's improvement was stated and shown by sources. And you have to prove that he VASTLY advanced in duelling skill after POD, or at least after ROT.

However, considering that he had his Obalisk armor and relied on it to protect himself from lightsaber strikes I wouldn't say that his in skill advancement was huge.

He improved after ROT by an unspecified margin, which you haven't proven anyways. And while he was shown training in lightsaber combat in DOE, this alone doesn't constitute evidence that his improvement was considerable, and certainly not to the degree you make it out to be.

And you haven't proven that he is comparable to Maul in skill, let alone far better. The fact that you find it laughable is worthless, and the only ridiculous notion is that you really think that Bane and Zannah are better than Maul despite providing no evidence for it.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Arhael
They would beat someone who went toe to toe with Sidious rather easily? laughing



Shut up, Arhael.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Then it certainly won't be a problem to show me feats from Bane and Zannah that escalate them to Maul's tier, right?. Did they defeat duellists on Qui Gon's level (who was also stated by objective sources as one of the most skilled duellists in the Jedi Order's history)? No. Did they contend with someone as skilled as TCW Obi-Wan? No.

And the fact that Maul was giving the killing strike doesn't change that Vader contended with him for a long time.

I've already provided details for Bane facing 2 duelists on those guys levels. Although going just on who they've defeated is stupid. We need to look at other factors to determine their ability. Bane's speed is on another level from Vader and Mauls, they won't be able to beat someone that much faster than them. I'll provide the feats later when discussing speed. Not to mention that his natural talent with a blade is above theirs.

It does change the fact that he basically lost though.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
There are several examples of duellists who mastered all, or almost all lightsaber forms and were defeated/challenged by people who had mastered only one.

Dooku defeated Sora Bulq while also duelling Tholme, yet the Count concentrated mainly on mastery of Makashi. He also was stated to be an equal with Mace and a peer to Yoda, who had mastered all forms. Anakin defeated Cin Drallig, who had mastered almost all the lightsaber forms, and was the battlemaster. Having mastered many forms means much less than skill and feats, and some of these people probably aren't even top 20 when it comes to skill.

Not only that, but Maul mastered Juyo, which requires a high-level mastery of multiple forms, while Bane mastered Djem-So and was only proficient in Soresu, so I can very well use this argument against you.

I didn't say that he merely mastered all of them though, I said he mastered them all then spent decades perfecting every sequence and move from all of them. That's a level of technical skill that's above most everyone in the mythos, including Vader and Maul. Do I seriously need to explain to you why knowing every single form inside and out is indicative of amazing skill?

Dooku specialised in Makashi and achieved great things with it. But Kas'im specialised in every form. He perfected his skill with all of them. And most of the examples of masters of all forms losing to single form practioners its because they're outmatched in power of other attributes, such that raw skill isn't what decides the fight. Anakin didn't beat Drallig by being more skilled than him, he beat the shit out of him by just being plain better than him.

Ok, cool story bro. Nice to know that every Juyo practicioner is better than Bane merely by the the fact that they use it. Oh, except Kas'im of course.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
It doesn't change the fact that Maul has this accolade and the feats to support it, while most others don't. You're also not considering the fact that Maul's accolade likely also includes many duellists from after Bane's time (which is still the ROTE era anyways)

The accolade or the feats to support it? Pretty much anyone can be said to be one of the most skilled in history with some notable feats. It's an incredibly vague and mostly worthless accolade. And of course I'm considering that. Maul being "one of" the best doesn't make him better than any of the duelists from Bane's era. It doesn't make him better than anyone who could be reasonable argued as being "one of" the best of all time.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Dooku is an equal with Mace, and is faster than him (disregarding the gargantuan amplification the latter had aginst Palpatine), yet he is his equal, not superior, and strenght and speed aren't that important, unless there is a huge difference between two opponents.

I don't recall anything indicating Dooku is faster than Mace. Speed and strength are very important aspects. Speed most of all of course. If you cannot keep up with your opponents movements then all the skill in the world can't help you. Even if it's not by much, outpacing your opponents gives you a considerable edge. If anything it's skill that doesn't matter much between two opponents. Its like chess, at a certain level you know exactly what your opponent is doing and how to react to it. Battles become decided by something different.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
I have yet to see what makes Bane so much faster than Vader, who has moved so fast that he seemed to teleport, speedblitzed Jedi while still getting used to his suit, displayed good agility on multiple occasions, moved his lightsaber as a blur, etc. Thhe difference is not gaping at all.

Bane moved faster than a room of Sith, including Kas'im, could perceive and was attacking 10 times a second in PoD. By RoT he was fast enough that he appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers at once to Zannah, who is a very powerful and fast Sith in her own right and would have speedblitzed Raskta and Farfalla were it not for the BM. By DoE he was stated to be even faster than he was previously by Zannah and was fast enough to block every drop of rain from hitting him in a thunder storm, a feat he'd considered impossible in previous books.

Vader moving faster than the eye can see and moving his lightsaber in a blur are frankly fodder level feats. Johun Othone has those feats. And the Jedi Vader blitzed were wounded Agricultural Corps. Utter fodder. His agility isn't bad, but still well below what a real Jedi or Sith is capable of. Even as an acolyte Bane could do a standing backflip.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
The fact that Vader VASTLY improved in skill matters more than Bane being implied to have improved, while Vader's improvement was stated and shown by sources. And you have to prove that he VASTLY advanced in duelling skill after POD, or at least after ROT.

However, considering that he had his Obalisk armor and relied on it to protect himself from lightsaber strikes I wouldn't say that his in skill advancement was huge.

He improved after ROT by an unspecified margin, which you haven't proven anyways. And while he was shown training in lightsaber combat in DOE, this alone doesn't constitute evidence that his improvement was considerable, and certainly not to the degree you make it out to be.

And you haven't proven that he is comparable to Maul in skill, let alone far better. The fact that you find it laughable is worthless, and the only ridiculous notion is that you really think that Bane and Zannah are better than Maul despite providing no evidence for it.

Bane still has an insane learning and improvement rate as established in PoD, where he learned every form and hundreds of thousands of moves and sequences in a scant few months time. With the decades between PoD and DoE coupled with his constant duels with Zannah and refinement of his lightsaber skills, it's obvious his improvement would be considerable baring that in mind.

And I believe you're overstating Vader's improvement. He was still only stalemating a barely trained Luke.

carthage
Originally posted by Nephthys
None of those TK feats are significantly more powerful than Zannah's capabilities. Bane wasn't above her and she smashed him into a wall despite him charging up his power. And saying Vader is faster than her is laughable. Don't buy into Carthage's BS guys, he's utterly worthless.

Except that you didn't actually post anything Zannah has done that surpasses Vader's feats. As usual I prove you wrong.

carthage
This was a pre-prime Vader and Vader still stabbed and killed him ending the fight i,e a victory for Vader. Also Maul is a superior duelist considering Bane has never beaten anyone without Orbalisks or a nexus that you've provided apart from Sirak.



Lolnope Kas'im has no objective accolades or feats other than Bane's ignorant and unsubstantiated opinion. That's a lot of bs and fellatio you typed just to hide the fact again you can't provide a single feat for Kas'im that puts him above anyone Vader has fought.



So now you're ignoring an accolade because you think it applies to everyone that's cute. Show me one accolade for any TOR sith that was applied to them calling them among the "most skilled Sith in history". You can't because your pulling your own thoughts of your ass



So much of your opinion and so little substantive posting supporting it. Bane lost to Fohargh, lost to Sirrak, got his ass kicked by Mercenaries, was losing against Kas'im, and died to his apprentice. That's a great record Neph thumb up. He only won a fight against featless Jedi because he had orbalisks, and you've never refuted my claim Bane has never won a fight based on his own skill without an amp/nexus



And Bane and Zannah are inferior to Maul, Dooku, and Vader in that regard thumb up

carthage
You tried to pass of Orbalisks Bane's speed as representative of DOE Bane's speed when its not. Doe Bane's sole speed feat was miserably slow i,e swatting at raindrops in his backyard by forming his lightsaber as a shield. He was slow enough that he had to do evasive manuevers to evade them, and even then they went past his defense. Please tell me how that makes him faster than Vader, especially when he's moved fast enough to teleport, fight invisibly fast, and materialize out of thin air. Bane's speed in Orbalisks doesn't matter, fodder Sith assassins still fought evenly with him and Zannah even held her own momentarily. Also lol @ anyone Bane fought being above the Maul clone, again without orbalisks Bane has never actually beaten anyone.



And for all of that supposed "Technical mastery" you keep harping on, why did he fail so miserably in closing a victory on a trainee in spite of:

A. Nexus
B. "Superior" technical training
C. Holding back his knowledge of Jar Kai.

If Kas'im was as proficient with his skill as you Banetards are going on, he performed miserably as his trainee still held himself well enough to where he had be deceitful and he still lost. Kas'im's skill has also never earned him a victory in any battle, and his only claim to faim is Bane's opinion (which you admitted to not questioning) like the loyal lapdog you are. Vader's dueling ability has been described of as unparalleled:



Source: "Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide"

What source of confirmation can we draw on Kas'im's skill apart from the unwarranted opinion of a Sith trainee? None. Case closed, really.



Your opinion of it doesn't make it less true, sorry. Maul is confirmed by cannon as one of the most skilled, and Kas'im has nothing other than Trainee Bane's opinion. Maul has fought evenly with Mace Windu, beaten Obi Wan Kenobi, beaten Anoon Bondara, beaten Qui Gon Jinn, Beaten Savage Opress, beaten Bruu Jun Fan, Beaten Aayla Secura, beaten General Grievous, destroyed the entire Black Sun gang.

Who has Kas'im or trainee Bane beaten than stands comparable to Mauls victories/fights? ZERO Kthx Neph



All of his speed feats prior to DOE where when he was either amped by a nexus (Lehon, and Korriban) or amped by Orbalisks. Stop trying to pass off nexus speed as actually representative of Bane's speed. The only two definitive speed feats for Bane as we know he is truly capable of, is blast deflection and his laughable "rain feat" where as I've shown he isn't even fast enough to avoid all of the rain drops. Bane is one of the slowest fighters in the mythos, no other force sensitive has actually failed that miserably in a show of speed as to not even successfully deflect water droplets en masse




Except that I posted feats for Vader where he moved fast enough to appear to teleport and materialize out of thin air? This is above anything Zannah or Bane have shown. I think i've proven my case really



His sparring matches/training sequences apart from the opening part of DOE occur offpanel and aren't indicative of skill tool. Instead of going off on speculative bullshit, why don't you actually post kills Bane has made without a nexus/orbalisks to substantiate the idea that Bane is more skilled than Maul/Vader all who have killed individuals without an amp or nexus. Zannah is also a joke as a lightsaber combatant



Cannon confirms he increased in skill between ANH/ESB, i,e a source superseding your worthless fanboy opinion


Source: "Insider #62"

Luke's ability to hold his own with an individual who has defeated notable Jedi like Obi Wan, Dark Woman, and a Maul clone are superior feats to anything Bane or Zannah have done.

carthage
Originally posted by appletonia
@ Neph:

thumb up



And even then Kas'im's hardly weak; I'd certainly argue that he's solidly more powerful than Maul.

Maul would ragdoll and murderstomp Kas'im

appletonia
Originally posted by carthage
Maul would ragdoll and murderstomp Kas'im

What is the nature of your relationship with Sidious 66 my son?

carthage
He is a good poster, but he is not my natural father.

At least not to my knowledge blink

Nephthys
It amuses me to think of the time it took you to write that response that I'm not going to read.

carthage
Your concession is accepted.
I've seen you humiliated by Intrepid, myself, Tempest, Ant, Sidious, and Stark more times that I can count.

Nephthys
How can I concede to someone I was never actually arguing with?

Keep wasting time carthage. You're never going to be anything more than an insect to me.

carthage
You concede because you again fail miserably to bring any evidence to support your claims other than your opinion and as usual no feats. Nargaroth is beating you like a dead horse.

Nephthys
I'll bring up evidence for the guy I'm actually talking to. Not his helper monkey.

carthage
You haven't brought any "evidence" to support your claim other than your opinion. Just give up dude go watch anime or something.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
It amuses me to think of the time it took you to write that response that I'm not going to read.

You should read it bro. He's taking you to the curb. excellent

Nephthys
Are you literally just a cheerleader these days or what?

carthage
I think he's retired from owning you in debates.

The_Tempest
It may or may not have just been a simple joke, man. Why are you so angry? erm

Also, I was kicking your ass directly in a thread not even 4 hours ago so I'm not sure why you'd say something like that other than, of course, the fact that you're angry.

Stigma
Welcome Nargaroth. It's refreshing to see someone with great debating skills like yours here at SWVF. Keep it up. thumb up

Indeed, I see that you and carthage stomp the SWTOR maniacs. Good. Goooood.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you literally just a cheerleader these days or what?
I think his d1ck got sore after humping you in the A-hole for years now.

Which reminds me, I think we did a little debate about Nihilus and Vitiate? I'm sorry I never responded but, frankly, 1. I come here only when I have time, 2. I don't care that much, 3. I'm lazy nowadays and 4. I will crush you beneth my heel in other debates, so it's all good cool

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