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Force sabers all out

The death stick addict takes it

Skywalker

The Cade definitely defeats him.

Kas'im pretty easily. Defends anything Cade can throw at him with the Force, and destroys him in a lightsaber battle.

Originally posted by appletonia
Kas'im pretty easily. Defends anything Cade can throw at him with the Force, and destroys him in a lightsaber battle.

Hah, now that's silly. Cade's force power is very high, and Cade's saber skill is pretty well up there too.


Skywalker was able to put up a good fight against Reborn Krayt, and Krayt's solidly above Kas'im.

Krayt isn't above Kas'im as far as blades are concerned.

Indeed. Kas'im has the far superior resume when it comes to lightsaber ability between him and Krayt, and Bane at the time of his fight with Kas'im was probably already more powerful than any version of Krayt and he wasn't able to overpower Kas'im with the Force. In fact I'd argue that Kas'im would have a very good chance of beating Krayt in an all out battle, let alone Noob Skywalker.

Really? Because once he becomes Krayt he never loses a saber fight, he at least holds some edge against everyone he fights. He's also been involved in much more fights. I mean, Kas'im is good, but Krayt's record is really quite impressive itself.

Even as A'Sharad he was skilled enough to be a serious threat to Obi-wan.

And, of course, his force power dwarfs Kas'im's.



Bane killed Kas'im thanks to the force. And no, Bane, especially this early, is certainly not stronger than Krayt.



I rate Kas'im higher than several others do here... but no, Kas'im's outmatched.



Don't know Cade, do you? Has completed Jedi and Sith training, been in fights with numerous masters who in turn have both saber and force feats, and he's killed many sith warriors. Heck, for several months he literally worked as a bounty hunter specializing in killing Sith (the Hutts were paying a lot for Sith lightsabers).

By the time he's taking on Reborn Krayt, he's a fully trained, very experienced fighter who's been involved in a war with the sith for over a year.

Cade. Even without Dark Transfer.

I think this is where we ultimately disagree. Kas'im isn't merely good, he's a borderline transcendental lightsaber technician. I'd argue the difference in lightsaber skill between he and Krayt is larger than the difference between them in the Force, and either way I'm not convinced Krayt would even be able to overpower him in that area anyway.



Bane by that point is already extremely impressive. His destruction of the temple alone is probably superior to any offensive application of the Force we've ever seen from Krayt, and months later he's capable of absorbing and channeling Force Lightning across the entire planet (and would have been able to destroy the planet). He's also blitzed talented Force Users by this point, created a storm of Force Lightning that was large enough to engulf an entire assembly hall about an hour after learning to use Force Lightning at all, has dominated powerful Force Users "as if their Force defences weren't even there", practically laughed at Kaan's attempt to mentally influence him. Krayt's resume really isn't all that impressive in all honesty.

I thought Bane went to Ruusan a few days after he killed Kas'im, not months?

I thought it might have been a bit longer by the time they carried out that ritual specifically, but it probably was merely days. Still, I'm open to the possibilty Bane might still have gone through a power boost between his duel with Kas'im and the ritual. Sith usually reach new levels of clarity in their understanding of the darkside after big milestones such as killing their masters.

Keep in mind Krayt was dominant in an era with a lot of fully trained Jedi and Sith (one of the points of PoD was a *lot* of the Jedi and Sith of the time were undertrained, Kas'im being one of the rare strong ones), as well as even his Jedi form being one of the better duelists in the order during the Clone Wars... a time known for it's exceptional light saber skills.


I'm not saying that Kas'im's not awesome at sabers, it's just that Krayt's rather awesome too. He started out as a blade technician before delving into the secrets of the force.


As for force strength, both Luke Skywalker and Caedus felt he was very strong, and then when he was reborn his power substantially increased. Krayt also achieved a technique on control of life and death to a level no-one had before.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Krayt isn't above Kas'im as far as blades are concerned.

Yeah he is. Who has Kas'im actually beaten that puts him above Krayt. Krayt has fought Abeloth, Celeste Morne, Cade Skywalker, Darth Wyyrlok, and speedblitz 4 Imperial Knights simultaneously.

Kas'im has never beaten anyone.

Originally posted by carthage
Yeah he is.

Cade.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind Krayt was dominant in an era with a lot of fully trained Jedi and Sith (one of the points of PoD was a *lot* of the Jedi and Sith of the time were undertrained, Kas'im being one of the rare strong ones),

There's a lot that you can say about the BOD, but that it was a weak order when it came to conventional Sith on Jedi warfare is not one of them.

Yes, knowledge of Sith magic, rituals, and other esoteric darkside abilities and teachings were largely lost. Yes, their approach of trying to defeat the Jedi through conventional warfare was not working. Yes, the darkside is at its most pure when concentrated among a select few rather than legions. Yes, towards the end of the war, they were taking on virtually anyone that could possibly fight, whether they were random fodder soldiers or barely trained Force Using children. And yes, in comparison to Bane, most of the order were pretty weak. It's also true that Bane was very critical of his contemporaries and greatly admired the Sith of old, but it's hardly unheard of for people to glorify past generations and be unfairly critical of the reality they are faced with.

When such a large focus of the book is on the above, it's easy to fall into the trap of just assuming that they suck, but the idea that they were poorly trained lightsaber practitioners is not compatible with everything we know about their resources or methodology. They lived in a time where their raison d'etre was to engage Jedi in deadly combat, it had been that way for hundreds of years and would have been reflected in their training, hierarchy, survivability and experience.

And also, where your argument for Krayt seems to be based almost entirely on his relative position within his order/era, the argument for Kas'im is based largely on absolute feats, so the order that he was a part of is mostly irrelevant. Sure, it's impressive that he was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else in the order, but what's most impressive about Kas'im is the extent to which he is documented to have mastered the lightsaber, which is to a level far greater than anybody else can be said to attain. He mastered every single lightsaber form and for every single style of weapon in a matter of years, spent decades perfecting his skills, invented his own system by which the Sith academy learned the forms and sparred with one another, and would continue to practice obsessively long after he already practically fully mastered everything. It's suggested that he wasn't just the best lightsaber user of his time, but possibly the best ever.

The argument that you've provided for Krayt does not paint a picture of him particularly standing out in the grand scheme of things. There's always going to be someone who's fairly dominant in their era. He does not come across as transcendental in the way that Kas'im does, and that's the primary difference between the two.



You're clearly reaching here. There was virtually nothing particularly special or notable about him during his Jedi years.

That the Clone Wars was a time known for exceptional light saber skills is KMC SWVF fanon. The truth is that the time leading up to the Clone Wars was a time of relative peace that saw the underutilisation of the kinds of techniques and abilities that were specifically made for Jedi on Sith warfare (classic example being the rarity of Makashi). The Clone Wars itself was a war that saw hardly any engagements being Jedi and Dark Jedi/Sith.



The point is that Kas'im is many scales of awesome above Krayt.



It's an interesting skill, I'll grant him that, but he needs to lay a hand on Kas'im for it to work in the first place, and either way that he was able to defend himself against a supercharged attacl from a version of Bane that has superior feats to Krayt suggests that he would do the same to Krayt.

Edit - I can however see different scenarios where Krayt might be able to defeat him, but either way I don't see how Cade has a chance.

Just for the record, Reborn Krayt would take Kas'im rather easily. Sorry apple, it's the truth.

When Bane couldn't even in the area he would have the biggest advantage?

Maybe not easily in lightsaber combat. But solidly. At Krayt's weakest he was still able to blitz 4 Imperial Knights at once. He got considerably more powerful since then, and wasn't dying anymore. All out with the Force in play, Krayt would win comfortably.

Actually, you can say that. Remember how the academy students were stronger than most of the lords?

And very few of the members had skill in force abilities.

There were some exceptions, but that's part of what made Bane so dominant, he had what they were lacking.


Compare to Krayt, who not only has a whole range of offensive options, but has a lot of defensive powers too. He can bare-hand block force lightning, something only about a half-dozen force users ever do.

Saber ability is one of the few areas where I'd say the BoD can compete, and even then, it's not *better* than the Clone War or other eras known for their sword skill.




Krayt's relative position is based on both absolute feats and feats in comparison to people with their own absolute feats. And heck, we're talking Cade here in the versus itself- Cade has multiple huge absolutely feats.

Saber skill, btw, largely does have to be done by relative-to-each-other. There's no objective judgement of skill, just comparisons to others.

Force, you can look at who's-thrown-bigger-with-TK and such, or 'who can do this particular thing at all,' but sabers is largely a matter of who you're fighting (for individuals), or how many you're fighting.

And do you think relative position doesn't matter when the reference points include Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, Cade Skywalker, etc.?



Not by feats he's not.

He may have gotten more powerful but he no longer had the advantages of the vonduun crab armor (pretty much orbalisk lite), so I'd argue Reborn Krayt was no longer as deadly a lightsaber duelist as he had been earlier.

And you really can't prove that he blitzed them at once, the comic book panels are open to interpretation on the exact manner in which he defeated them. It's strongly indicated that he did so pretty quickly and viciously, but I don't think we can just start throwing the word blitz around when there's no real proof that that's actually what occurred.

Let's also remember that these were basically 4 no-name Knights. Bane was able to blitz someone who was actually notably powerful in Sirak with laughable ease at a time long before his duel with Kas'im. In fact, around the time that he blitzed Sirak, Kas'im was able to physically outwork him in their sparring sessions.

You seem to be ignoring the massive technical disparity between the two, coupled with the fact that Kas'im is actually a very powerful Force User himself.

As I said, I can see scenarios where Krayt might be able to overwhelm him with the Force, or land a hand on him and kill him that way, and hell, maybe 1 in 10 times he'd win the saber duel. But I can also easily envision a scenario where Kas'im defend against his Force attacks and comfortably defeats him in a lightsaber battle

Originally posted by Q99
Actually, you can say that. Remember how the academy students were stronger than most of the lords?

If you take a pessimistic Sith Lord speaking in a moment of passion fully at his word, and besides, the point was that the academy students were students in name only. It's made very clear that the students were extremely well trained warriors.



I don't know how you can be all that sure of this. For the most part we don't really see how good or bad they are with darkside abilities, it's not really all that heavily explored.



I think sources differ on how special this really is. In the Bane books you have people like Farfalla (who's very powerful but hardly a titan) using a basic Force Shield to block lightning. Bane, mere days after his duel with Kas'im, absorbs Force Lightning through multiple areas of his body during the ritual on Ruusan, including his back and head.



Well it's good that we can at least agree on that, though I will say that I see no reason to think that the CW era can compete. It's made pretty clear that the emphasis of that order was not on Jedi/Sith warfare.



Sure but you can keep on teacing those absolute feats through the relative series and nothing ever approaches Kas'im's command of the lightsaber.



Nothing on Kas'im's level.



The extent to which you master a form is something that can be judged on its own terms. You could of course also start arguing that the BOD had lower standards for "mastering" something, but absoltuely nothing suggests that (all available evidence would suggest the opposite).



Obi-Wan Kenobi destroyed him when they fought. I know it was a long time ago, but I don't think you can guage much out of that fight. I haven't read the FOTJ series but it seems to be the case that Luke did the majority of the work in the fight against Abeloth, and that there was no real comparison made between them in lightsaber ability. Cade is hardly the most well trained or experienced of Skywalkers, and has done little to impress me. I certainly wouldn't put him anywhere near POD Bane.

Who of note did he defeat exactly? Compare that to Kas'im who defeated Bane and actually, never lost a saber battle either.

Originally posted by appletonia
He may have gotten more powerful but he no longer had the advantages of the vonduun crab armor (pretty much orbalisk lite), so I'd argue Reborn Krayt was no longer as deadly a lightsaber duelist as he had been earlier.

Except the Vong armor crippled and was killing him. Sure it was good for protection, but it was weakening him overall. Without it affecting his health and with his increased power, I can't see why he wouldn't be a more effective swordsman. Defensively weaker, yes, but offensively he would be quicker and more physically powerful.

Originally posted by appletonia
And you really can't prove that he blitzed them at once, the comic book panels are open to interpretation on the exact manner in which he defeated them. It's strongly indicated that he did so pretty quickly and viciously, but I don't think we can just start throwing the word blitz around when there's no real proof that that's actually what occurred.

I'm finding it hard to find the exact panel, but as I recall it looked like he killed them in either a few swings or instantly. Either way, it looked to have occurred just as fast as Sidious' blitz in RotS.

Originally posted by appletonia
Let's also remember that these were basically 4 no-name Knights. Bane was able to blitz someone who was actually notably powerful in Sirak with laughable ease at a time long before his duel with Kas'im. In fact, around the time that he blitzed Sirak, Kas'im was able to physically outwork him in their sparring sessions.

They weren't no-name Knights, they were the bodyguards for the Emperor. And any Imperial Knight is highly trained as if they were a Jedi Master.

Originally posted by appletonia
You seem to be ignoring the massive technical disparity between the two, coupled with the fact that Kas'im is actually a very powerful Force User himself.

As I said, I can see scenarios where Krayt might be able to overwhelm him with the Force, or land a hand on him and kill him that way, and hell, maybe 1 in 10 times he'd win the saber duel. But I can also easily envision a scenario where Kas'im defend against his Force attacks and comfortably defeats him in a lightsaber battle

Except Krayt is much more powerful than Kas'im. And Bane was defeating Kas'im through simply being more powerful, not more technically skilled. Kas'im won't be able to keep up with Krayts raw power and speed.

Krayt and Cade utterly outclass Kas'im as a Force User though. Cade blocked an explosion that leveled an Imperial Base while at the heart of it. Before his prime. Krayt was so powerful he made Jacen shit his britches and fought Abeloth side by side with Luke who considered him a possible rival for the Throne of Balance.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except the Vong armor crippled and was killing him. Sure it was good for protection, but it was weakening him overall. Without it affecting his health and with his increased power, I can't see why he wouldn't be a more effective swordsman. Defensively weaker, yes, but offensively he would be quicker and more physically powerful.

I still say it's arguable. Sure, becoming more powerful is going to make him stronger and faster etc. but having lightsaber resistant armor is an absolutely massive advantage. It's a huge defensive advantage that translates into an offensive advantage; just look at how much more Bane for example can open up his offense when he doesn't have to worry about protecting himself as much, and he can do thigns like parry with an arm and then strike with a saber, or even openly grapple people in a way you wouldn't be able to if you were vulnerable.



I don't have them right now but I did the last time I was arguing this and it was definitely a little vague and open to interpretation. It's entirely possible he just walked through their attacks (due to the armor) and simply overwhelmed them physically.



Still hardly notable. Nothing compared to Sirak, who was thought by some to be a candidate for the Sith'ari, and head and shoulders above the rest of the academy (aside from Bane), who were soon afterwards declared to be master level.



So was Bane.



It was through superior power but also because he'd perfectly memorised all of Kas'im's moves and knew them as well as he knew his own. Krayt's not going to have that advantage.

And I don't think you can equate Bane's physical advantage to Krayt's. Even among the truly most powerful Force Users ever, Bane is notably fast and an absolute giant.



Cade really doesn't. It's not exactly like Kas'im is lacking in feats of great defensive application of the Force.

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b497/sierlean/KraytvsKnights1.jpg

He swung both his sabers at the same time, and three knights fell.

Morghan took two swings- one to disarm, one to impale.

And the scene was shown twice, the other time just in one panel with the same thing happening while Morghan was ordering 'protector your emperor!'.


There's some cases when comic panels are open to interpretation, where stuff seems to happen between panels, but not so much in this one. They died fast, and except for Morghan don't get a chance to do anything.



Originally posted by psmith81992
Who of note did he defeat exactly? Compare that to Kas'im who defeated Bane and actually, never lost a saber battle either.

Cade Skywalker twice- even the final encounter, Cade only got a shot on him because Krayt chose to show him a vision and bring him through death rather than simply kill him.

Darth Wyyrlok, who in turned killed the legendary sith Darth Andeddu, and killed the darkside members of his malevolence cult.

Morghan Fel, the Emperor's cousin and chief of his bodyguard, as well as three other Imperial Knights, who attacked him from all sides. Imperial Knights stay in training a lot longer than Jedi and only get the title when they reach master level- we've in fact seen two junior full Knights perform at master level (Marasiah Fel, Jao Assim), so it's not just talk either. There's a reason why the order's size caps at around 60 or so. The original plan was for the four knights to fight their way out from an entire room full of sith.


Abeloth, one of the most powerful force entities of all time, who he tag-teamed with Luke Skywalker.


A ship full of Yuuzhan Vong, while unarmed.


There was also the time when he beat up Anakin Skywalker with a gaffi stick...


Aurra Sing, bounty hunter and killer of multiple Jedi masters (she once faced Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time and almost killed Qui-Gon were it not for Kenobi providing a distraction. She then kicked both of them and escaped).


Oh, I'm sure I'm probably forgetting something, but, you know, just this and that across the years ^^





They still aren't as big as being utterly unharmed at the center of a giant explosion from a self-destructing base!

Cade's also thrown a space-ship as a weapon, and he out-forces Talon who in turn shows quite powerful TK by normal standards.


Kas'im has good feats. He's one of the stand-outs of his time. They are still not as good.

Do you have the scans for the other depiction of the fight?

When a comicbook's involved, it's pretty much always open to interpretation. There's really no way of proving that he struck down all three simultaneously. The manner in which the background disappears creates much more of a stylized (rather than literal) depiction of the battle making the passage of time and specific engagements of the battle far less discernible. I already said that it makes it look very quick and ferocious, but saying much more than that is blatantly reaching.



Even if that was your interpretation, it doesn't mean he neccessarily blitzed them. The Knights may have landed hits on his back, in which case they would have been ineffectual and left the knights open to a swift counterattack. He may have just tore through their defences with sheer strength. He may have landed a few very well placed or timed shots, or there may have even been very brief exchanges. Or he may have even overwhelmed them with speed, but that doesn't necessarily entail blitz worthy speed.



It's not like Cade's having to protect himself from the entire volume of the explosion, just like Kas'im isn't having to protect himself from the entire temple destroying Force Wave. It's only the portion that approximately encompasses their body, so I'd argue that Kas'im's feat is superior.

Young inexperienced Skywalkers being able to unconsciously tap into great reserves of power that they don't usually have access to is also a pretty common theme. A young, untrained Zannah was able to defend herself and an entire colony of Bouncers from something far more destructive, but I wouldn't argue she can access that power whenever she wants. Is this Cade's regular level of power?

At best, I think you can argue that Cade's marginally more powerful than Kas'im, not vastly like Krayt might be. And of course, most importantly, the difference in technical ability with a lightsaber between the two is absolutely colossal.