Sidious and Vitiate vs Caedus, Plageuis, and Bane (Force fight)

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WildBantha88
Everyone has a lightsaber to block lightning

Each in there prime

Who wins who dies?

ares834
Team 1.

Emperordmb
I'm siding with team two.

Nephthys
Team 2.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm siding with team two. Same.

Vitiate wank is strong but he isn't stronger than any one on team 2 so that leaves Sidious dealing with 2. Even DE sids dealing with any combination of them is in a tight spot

NewGuy01
With the Force? I'd argue that Vitiate is at least slightly stronger than anyone on Team 2.

Nephthys
But it's 3 against 2.

Sinious
Originally posted by NewGuy01
With the Force? I'd argue that Vitiate is at least slightly stronger than anyone on Team 2.

thumb up


I'm siding team 1 here confidently.

ares834
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm siding with team two.

How? Sids can drop a force storm on them... Recall that it took the combined power of Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin to cause him to lose control. I doubt team 2 has enough raw power to do so. And, even if they do have the necessary "oomph" to pull it off, Vitiate can fry their asses while they are singing Cumbia.

Emperordmb
I didn't think of DE Sidious when I made that post... hmmm

Nephthys
Caedus, Plagueis and Bane could probably form a force shield strong enough to weather a Force Storm togther. And good luck to Vitiate attacking them with a wormhole in the room.

Sinious
How? Vitiate's FLS can give all the time Sidious needs to perfectly charge for such an attack like that and they can't deal with Vitty-Siddy's combined force attacks.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Caedus, Plagueis and Bane could probably form a force shield strong enough to weather a Force Storm togther. And good luck to Vitiate attacking them with a wormhole in the room.

Consideirng we've never seen anyone defend against force storm in such a way, I doubt it.

carthage
Why is Bane even here? Every fighter here moves faster than a raindrop (maybe not Vitiate) he would get GODSTOMPED by either guy on team 1. He is useless

Emperordmb
Originally posted by carthage
Why is Bane even here? Every fighter here moves faster than a raindrop (maybe not Vitiate) he would get GODSTOMPED by either guy on team 1. He is useless
Bane's faster than Grievous.

He strikes at over ten times a second with one blade, while Grievous only strikes five times a second with one blade.

carthage
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane's faster than Grievous.

He strikes at over ten times a second with one blade, while Grievous only strikes five times a second with one blade.

On a nexus thumb up . Also that isnt helping Bane considering Palpatine is many tiers ahead of Grievous in speed. Bane gets blitzed or ragdolled

FreshestSlice
Team 1.

carthage
Assuming it DE Palpatine Team 1

AncientPower
Caedus > Vitiate (even with prep)
Bane & Plagueis > Sidious

Marco1907
Plagueis is the game changer. Team 2.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Same.

Vitiate wank is strong but he isn't stronger than any one on team 2 so that leaves Sidious dealing with 2. Even DE sids dealing with any combination of them is in a tight spot

Originally posted by NewGuy01
With the Force? I'd argue that Vitiate is at least slightly stronger than anyone on Team 2.

Sinious
Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus > Vitiate (even with prep)

laughing laughing laughing

Tell me, how is Caedus superior to planet annihilating, Dark Council one-shotting, jedi strike team(extremely powerful) dominating and easily mindraping strong individuals like Revan and Malak?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by ares834
Consideirng we've never seen anyone defend against force storm in such a way, I doubt it.


True, plus it was a light side technique that Luke and Leia used, which diminished Palp's connection to the dark side, causing him to lose control of his power. Neither on team two can surround Sidious with pure light side energy.

Also, do you think Caedus's last performance against Luke was a result of Luke's inconsistency or because Caedus is just that good? I mean, Caudus has some impressive feats, but out side of their fight, Luke's feats are quite solidly above Caedus's, not to mention Luke had manhandled him with the force prior (though some argue that was due to Caudus being caught by surprise).

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, do you think Caedus's last performance against Luke was a result of Luke's inconsistency or because Caedus is just that good? I mean, Caudus has some impressive feats, but out side of their fight, Luke's feats are quite solidly above Caedus's, not to mention Luke had manhandled him with the force prior (though some argue that was due to Caudus being caught by surprise).


Ares, NewGuy, Skillz? Anyone?

Emperordmb
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's possible that once you reach a certain level of power with the light, getting pissed off unbalances you more than it helps you. This is just a theory though.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's possible that once you reach a certain level of power with the light, getting pissed off unbalances you more than it helps you. This is just a theory though.


That could be the case, but that's not always the case. It depends on the circumstance really, and how well a light sider uses his focused rage. Windu is a master of using his rage, and Anakin, as a light sider, used it to easily kill Dooku. Kenobi, as a padawan, used his rage to momentarily boost his performance against Maul.

However, I'm not interested in your opinion, considering that you think Grievous using more than just two hands for his overall speed suggests that he is slower than Bane, and that it even matters in a vs debate.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That could be the case, but that's not always the case. It depends on the circumstance really, and how well a light sider uses his focused rage. Windu is a master of using his rage, and Anakin, as a light sider, used it to easily kill Dooku. Kenobi, as a padawan, used his rage to momentarily boost his performance against Maul.
Well Windu specifically created and mastered a method of channeling his own inner darkness, and while Anakin was a powerful lightsider, I don't know I'd consider him that strongly light side aligned. Kenobi as a padawan used his rage to his advantage, but as a Councilor it unbalanced him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, I'm not interested in your opinion, considering that you think Grievous using more than just two hands for his overall speed suggests that he is slower than Bane, and that it even matters in a vs debate.
You asked for "anyone" to give their opinion, I gave my opinion. No need to be a dick about it.

Nephthys
But thats completely true though, Sidious66. Grievous attacking 20 times a second should be unquestionably split between his 4 arms. And it definitely does matter since it means Grievous' striking speed is not 20 times a second, its 5 times a second with 4 weapons, allowing Obi-Wan to not be overwhelmed by his speed and instead handle his attacks through avoidance and efficiency, without even needing to match him in speed.

King Joker
Originally posted by Emperordmb



You asked for "anyone" to give their opinion, I gave my opinion. No need to be a dick about it.

thumb up

Emperordmb
That whole Grievous speed thing was me attempting to address a logical fallacy of Carthage's. Carthage considers the rainstorm feat "pathetic" because of the speed of an individual raindrop. To him that's all that mattered. Not even taking into account the fact that there would've been around a thousand raindrops coming his way per second. All that mattered to Carthage was that an individual raindrop was slower than an individual blasterbolt. So, by that logic, Bane is superior to Grievous because Bane's individual blade is moving faster than any of Grievous's blades.

Nephthys
Yes, which is the entire point. There is a fundamental difference between one saber attacking 20 a second and four lightsabers attacking 20 times a second. That 1 lightsaber would have to move 4 times as fast as any one of those 4 sabers to equal the number of attacks per second. Which is why the 1 lightsaber is so much more deadly, because it is moving so much faster than those sabers and is so much harder to intercept.

Trocity
Team 1.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well Windu specifically created and mastered a method of channeling his own inner darkness, and while Anakin was a powerful lightsider, I don't know I'd consider him that strongly light side aligned. Kenobi as a padawan used his rage to his advantage, but as a Councilor it unbalanced him.


And Windu notes that it requires powerful jedi with exceptional mastery to master it, which contradicts your notion that reaching a certain level of power in the light side would hinder ones performance when getting angry.

So basically you're suggesting that padawan Obi Wan could use his rage effectively, whereas master Kenobi couldn't? That makes sense. Wait no, actually it doesn't, considering that Filoni implied that he was somewhat angry after witnessing Unduli's death, which boosted his performance against the Maul bros.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
You asked for "anyone" to give their opinion, I gave my opinion. No need to be a dick about it.


You got me there. Now you know, though.

Don't complain about me being a dick when you make remarks about me being a fan of Sidious. You have no room to talk, considering how you have a history of over exaggerating Bane's feats and blowing them out of proportion.



Originally posted by Nephthys
But thats completely true though, Sidious66. Grievous attacking 20 times a second should be unquestionably split between his 4 arms. And it definitely does matter since it means Grievous' striking speed is not 20 times a second, its 5 times a second with 4 weapons, allowing Obi-Wan to not be overwhelmed by his speed and instead handle his attacks through avoidance and efficiency, without even needing to match him in speed.


It doesn't matter. Grievous has 4 arms, and using all 4 arms gives him the ability to strike over 20 times a second. It's like saying Boba Fett wouldn't be as dangerous without his gear set. In a vs match we consider it considering that's what he's equipped with. Grievous is equipped with 4 arms.

Actually striking 20 times with 4 arms from different angles, is what gave Obi Wan trouble. It wasn't solely on account of Grievous just striking 20 times a second. Grievous's 4 arms is an advantage for him.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Emperordmb
That whole Grievous speed thing was me attempting to address a logical fallacy of Carthage's. Carthage considers the rainstorm feat "pathetic" because of the speed of an individual raindrop. To him that's all that mattered. Not even taking into account the fact that there would've been around a thousand raindrops coming his way per second. All that mattered to Carthage was that an individual raindrop was slower than an individual blasterbolt. So, by that logic, Bane is superior to Grievous because Bane's individual blade is moving faster than any of Grievous's blades.


Cart doesn't think too highly of Bane. Get over it. For someone who considers him a troll, you value his opinion far too much.

King Joker
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wait no, actually it doesn't, considering that Filoni implied that he was somewhat angry after witnessing Unduli's death, which boosted his performance against the Maul bros.





*Gallia's

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by King Joker
*Gallia's


Thanks.

DarthAnt66
Dumbass.

NewGuy01
Yeah, it's likely a power in the same category as the Wall of Light.



Caedus is just that good. In addition, Luke is not the combatant that he's made out to be.



What feats are you referring to, specifically?



Generally I tend to advocate that it's far more difficult to break a telekinetic grip than to prevent/block it. Just look at the Maul/Sidious scenario.



thumb up



thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It doesn't matter. Grievous has 4 arms, and using all 4 arms gives him the ability to strike over 20 times a second. It's like saying Boba Fett wouldn't be as dangerous without his gear set. In a vs match we consider it considering that's what he's equipped with. Grievous is equipped with 4 arms.

Actually striking 20 times with 4 arms from different angles, is what gave Obi Wan trouble. It wasn't solely on account of Grievous just striking 20 times a second. Grievous's 4 arms is an advantage for him.

It does matter, because it decreases the speed of Grievous' individual strikes as I explained above. To strike 20 times per sec with a single saber you need to move significantly faster than 4 sabers striking just as many times. It's the difference between dodging 4 tennis balls going 25 mph and 1 tennis ball going 100 mph. Added together they make up the same speed, but the one is actually many times faster than the four. This isn't anything about gear, its about the perception of a feat and speed. Grievous doesn't have 20 strikes per second speed, he has 5 strikes per second speed and 4 arms. This does affect his performance in threads, because its much easier to defend against 4 attacks than 1 attack thats 4 times as fast as any of those attacks.

I'm not saying it's not an advantage. It is. All I'm saying is that peoples perceptions of Grievous' speed based on the 20 strikes per second feat are off. People are taking it as indicative of his speed without considering that that number was split between 4 arms. Despite what I said at the start though, GG isn't being diminished, its just that people were making him look more impressive than he actually is.

And Obi-Wan was able to defend against all of Grievous' sabers with just one of his, while only being as fast or slower than any one of GG's arms. Its hardly an insurmountable advantage.

Arhael

Emperordmb
Wasn't Qreph heavily amped?

Arhael

FreshestSlice
Where in that quote does it show how amped Luke was?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dumbass.


No, the dumbass would be the one who thought that bringing up a vague quote was using my own logic against me when I was actually using mostly feats as the source of my arguments. You confirmed that you don't even know what logic is.

The dumbass would also be the one who lets people over the web force him to do their bidding, and then telling the whole story to someone they claim to want to start "war" with. Speaking of which, when was Intrepid supposed to destroy me? laughing out loud


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus is just that good. In addition, Luke is not the combatant that he's made out to be.


If Caedus is that good then I'd say team two takes this. However, since you and I don't agree on certain things, then I may be convinced other wise.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
What feats are you referring to, specifically?


Black hole manipulation, destroying and rebuilding Vader's castle with TK, resisting a force push from Unuthul who was channeling the force energy of , toppling an AT walker, throwing a large statue, ragdolling a group of Palpatine's dark side adepts, IIRC (though, I didn't find them that impressive, so...), destroying a group of droids with the wave of his hands, moving ships (though Caedus has too), tanking/absorbing fire power capable of destroying entire buildings etc.


Has Caedus shown anything to suggest that he is on par with Luke power-wise? I mean, I know Luke is inconsistent, but his best showings are at least consistent enough to put him at the top.

I know Caedus had that feat against the Vong, which was considered to be the most powerful manifestation of the force in history according to The Sith vs Jedi, but it was a one time thing.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Generally I tend to advocate that it's far more difficult to break a telekinetic grip than to prevent/block it. Just look at the Maul/Sidious scenario.


I disagree unless they are very close in power (which is basically what I'm asking), but even then, we hardly see two equals gripping each other around even when a force attack is successfully landed. Yoda to Sidious, for example, I doubt that Yoda could've kept Sidious down, because it requires more effort and power to keep your opponent down when they are fighting to repulse your effort than just merely knocking them off balance. Usually when we see grip being utilized, it's a sign of dominance, which is why we very rarely see less power individuals being able to grip their opponent unless under certain circumstances. We do, however, see less power individuals successfully tagging their superiors with the force quite often.




Originally posted by Nephthys
It does matter, because it decreases the speed of Grievous' individual strikes as I explained above. To strike 20 times per sec with a single saber you need to move significantly faster than 4 sabers striking just as many times. It's the difference between dodging 4 tennis balls going 25 mph and 1 tennis ball going 100 mph. Added together they make up the same speed, but the one is actually many times faster than the four. This isn't anything about gear, its about the perception of a feat and speed. Grievous doesn't have 20 strikes per second speed, he has 5 strikes per second speed and 4 arms. This does affect his performance in threads, because its much easier to defend against 4 attacks than 1 attack thats 4 times as fast as any of those attacks.

I'm not saying it's not an advantage. It is. All I'm saying is that peoples perceptions of Grievous' speed based on the 20 strikes per second feat are off. People are taking it as indicative of his speed without considering that that number was split between 4 arms. Despite what I said at the start though, GG isn't being diminished, its just that people were making him look more impressive than he actually is.

And Obi-Wan was able to defend against all of Grievous' sabers with just one of his, while only being as fast or slower than any one of GG's arms. Its hardly an insurmountable advantage.


20 strike per second is 20 strikes per second whether it's coming from 1 saber or 4. The only difference is, as far as defense goes, it's harder to defend against 20 attacks that are literally coming at you from different angles than just one. Having 4 different arms gives Grievous the advantage of attacking 20 strikes a second in more angles, however, the amount of strikes per second remains the same.

Your tennis ball analogy makes no sense. If all four balls are coming at you 25mph it doesn't make the traveling speed any different nor would it add up to 100mph considering the traveling speed between each ball would still be the same. That's why you don't see cops pulling over 4 cars and telling them that he added 25 times 4 and that means that they were going over the speed limit. Now I couldn't calculate the striking speed between each of Grievous's arms, but I do know that the speed and rapidity between each strike equals out to 20 strikes per second. That's all we need to know, and knowing that the strikes are coming from different angles, common sense dictates that I would be harder to defend against.

DarthAnt66
Sidious and PT dies. Bane and NSW wins. Neph won the debate with S66 since he conceded. He PMed Neph earlier saying he did.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sidious and PT dies. Bane and NSW wins. Neph won the debate with S66 since he conceded. He PMed Neph earlier saying he did.


You're dismissed Ant.

I was hoping for some harsh insults from you, such as I'm so ugly the world hates me, etc

NewGuy01
Kyp has manipulated Dorvin Basals as well, you know.



I don't recall him rebuilding it.



Caedus has casually moved a 40x20 meter ship, this isn't outside the range of his abilities.



He just knocked it over.



Never happened. He pushed Sedriss, once.



Caedus has stopped B-Wings mid-flight.



Caedus has deflected torrents of turbolaser fire with his hands. That's easily enough to destroy cathedrals, much less ordinary buildings.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Sinious
laughing laughing laughing

Tell me, how is Caedus superior to planet annihilating, Dark Council one-shotting, jedi strike team(extremely powerful) dominating and easily mindraping strong individuals like Revan and Malak?

I have seen this debate had before and Caedus wins every single time.

Caedus could stop the mind-rape of Luke himself.

His moment of oneness was stronger than anyone else's

He could sever Ben from the Force and restore it at will.

He could block any bonds with his family members.

Emit illusions so complex and realistic that he can even allow the victim's own imagination to drive it.

He ROFLSTOMPED Kyle Katarn and co. like literal ragdolls and nearly killed him when he(Caedus) wasn't even interested.

His Battle Meditation was so strong that he was practically single-handedly responsible for keeping his fleet together whilst fighting on his own flagship.

His battle-meld was so powerful that he became the center of over a dozen Jedi simultaneously and kept the group together.

He tanked a lightsaber blade through the stomach and the loss of his fore-arm and was still nearly killing Jaina Solo, the Sword of the Jedi herself whilst being heavily distracted with the thought of his wife and daughter's death.

I can go on and on and on and on..

Take away Vitiate's rituals and prep... then compare them, it's not even close.

FreshestSlice
There might be a problem in comparing Caedus' power to Vitiate's prep if you take the prep away.

Sinious
Originally posted by AncientPower
I have seen this debate had before and Caedus wins every single time.

Caedus could stop the mind-rape of Luke himself.






Luke himself? Vitiate is known to be a master of mind-raping. Even the attempt of mind-dominating Vitiate would be a laughable cause even for the likes of Luke. You pride Caedus by him not being dominated by a powerful character where Vitiate is prided by dominating other powerful characters.




LMAO Then Caedus would probably beat the Ones too since that seems to be what determines this.

Vitiate could make people immortal as he wished and by exposing only a fraction of his true darkness, he could turn powerful sith lords mad. His mere presence was enough to make most tremble.

The Emperor has mastered the force so well that he could transfer his entity into other bodies without losing power. He had an entire cult devoted to him and he could telepathically talk to every single member of it casually without even focusing. In fact, he could simultaneously talk to several people through the force no matter how far they are.



Vitiate's was so capable with his sorcery that he tricked and then dominated 8000 sith lords to participate in a ritual where he became immortal and annihilated an entire planet. The planet became a wound in the force and powerful beings like Nyriss and Surik had trouble remaining on its surface. He right after that became the most powerful sith lord ever lived which means he was above the likes of Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos etc. He spent 1300 years after that constantly draining on other force users and discovering new techniques and powers within the dark side of the force.

He became so powerful that he was able to annihilate an entire dark council. He one-shot them as it wasn't even a fight at all. A dark council consists of the best sith lords among thousands of powerful sith. Even their weaker members hold great power in their hands and more high tier members consist of people like Darth Nox, Jadus, Marr, Baras, Nyriss etc.

Revan was the champion of the order even in his youth and he has gained a lot of knowledge and multiplied his power as a sith lord. He became even more powerful in KOTOR and much more powerful in the novel when he was "reborn". Even than, after he managed to reflect one of Vitaite's single-handedly/carelessly sent force attacks(The Emperor didnt even feel in danger at this point), Emperor felt he had to take this more seriously and he summoned a lightning enough to break Reborn Revan's defenses instantly and fry him to a point where he would die if he wasn't attended by a medic.



You can go on and on about many characters. The problem is the information that you are sharing is irrelevant since most of the things you're listing here isnt even near what Vitiate has achieved.



Even than, Vitiate takes this but:

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There might be a problem in comparing Caedus' power to Vitiate's prep if you take the prep away.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kyp has manipulated Dorvin Basals as well, you know.


And Kyp's a power house, and was once thought of as having greater force potential than Luke. Regardless of whether or not that feat is consistent with his other feats, I'm not sure what Kyp's feat has to do with Caedus.

As far as TK is concerned it's beyond anything Jacen has done, along with resisting the force push from the combined power of , and tearing down Vader's castle, which I'm more than sure was done very casually. I'll get back to you about the rebuilding it part, unless you have the passage?




Originally posted by NewGuy01
He just knocked it over.


I recall him lifting it and moving it quite a distance.

Regardless, feats like this, along with his toppling of the walker, are his minor feats, which I'm sure Caedus is capable of which is why I mention his manipulation of a ship. I was just listing random consistent good showings from Luke. Even his minor ones that I listed were done way before his prime and don't contradict his higher end ones in his prime.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Never happened. He pushed Sedriss, once.


I'm pretty sure he force pushed about 2 or 3 when he first arrived on Byss.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus has stopped B-Wings mid-flight.


That's the feat I was referring to.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus has deflected torrents of turbolaser fire with his hands. That's easily enough to destroy cathedrals, much less ordinary buildings.


Ordinary buildings is an understatement. Regardless, you just proved that Caedus is more than capable of handling Vitiate if he's capable of absorbing such fire power, so I'm not sure what puts Vitiate ahead of him combat-wise.

The biggest threat against team 2 would be Sidious's force storm, but since Caedus and Plaguies are fast enough to keep up with Sidious I'm not sure he would be able to distance himself in order to produce one. Then again, I don't see them leaping around in just a force contest, so team 1 might take it solely on account of Sidious storm.

Nephthys
Luke has dominated Jacen with TK twice. Its not really arguable that Jacen is his rival in that area.

Arhael
Jacen Force pushed Luke into vines.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke has dominated Jacen with TK twice. Its not really arguable that Jacen is his rival in that area.


Didn't Luke have help the other time or wasn't it context specific? Do you have the passage?

Nephthys
No, Luke force pushed Jacen into vines.

"Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green."

Jacen did blindside Luke by tossing some vines at him, but only because Luke was expecting lightning.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't Luke have help the other time or wasn't it context specific? Do you have the passage?

There was that time when he pinned Jacen to his chair rather effortlessly and there was that other time when Luke started wreaking Jacens ship with TK. Jacen tries to block him and Luke rebukes him so hard Jacen shatters his collarbone.

I can find the passages but I'd rather not, I can never recall which books in LotF these feats come from.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
There was that time when he pinned Jacen to his chair rather effortlessly and there was that other time when Luke started wreaking Jacens ship with TK. Jacen tries to block him and Luke rebukes him so hard Jacen shatters his collarbone.

I can find the passages but I'd rather not, I can never recall which books in LotF these feats come from.


Yeah the one when Luke wrecks the ship, I thought it was context specific or Luke had help unaware to Jacen.

No, you just don't want to help me out because you hate me. stick out tongue

Nephthys
No. Jacen explicitly freaks out about "just how much power Luke had."

Don't underestimate how lazy I am.

SIDIOUS 66
Then what the hell am I talking about?

Nephthys
I dunno. Luke never needed help to humiliate Jacen. There was also the time he made Jacen look like a lunatic with an illusionary fleet only Jacen could see. And when he tricked Jacen into thinking he was dead and specifically hid his force presence from Jacen alone. And I think he screwed with him a lot in the Jaina fight as well.

ares834
Yep. He cast an illusion on Jaina making her look like Luke (at least towards Caedus).

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
20 strike per second is 20 strikes per second whether it's coming from 1 saber or 4.

True.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only difference is, as far as defense goes, it's harder to defend against 20 attacks that are literally coming at you from different angles than just one.

Not true. The other difference is that you'd need to move 1 saber four times as fast as you'd need to move 4 sabers to create 20 strikes a second. Another example:

One person uses 1 hand to push 20 buttons in 10 seconds. The other uses both hands to accomplish the same (assuming perfect ambidexterity). The end result is the same amount of buttons pushed BUT the first guy had to move twice as fast to accomplish the same result with half the number of hands. Get it?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Having 4 different arms gives Grievous the advantage of attacking 20 strikes a second in more angles, however, the amount of strikes per second remains the same.

But the speed of each individual strike goes down by 75%. You're right that attacking from multiple angles is an advantage though. It's just not nearly as big of an advantage as moving 4 times as fast.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your tennis ball analogy makes no sense. If all four balls are coming at you 25mph it doesn't make the traveling speed any different nor would it add up to 100mph considering the traveling speed between each ball would still be the same. That's why you don't see cops pulling over 4 cars and telling them that he added 25 times 4 and that means that they were going over the speed limit. Now I couldn't calculate the striking speed between each of Grievous's arms, but I do know that the speed and rapidity between each strike equals out to 20 strikes per second. That's all we need to know, and knowing that the strikes are coming from different angles, common sense dictates that I would be harder to defend against.

You're just being pedantic. There was nothing wrong with my comparison. 4 objects add up to being as fast as 1 object (strikes per second = mph) but that 1 object was still objectively moving faster than those 4 objects were.

I should specify btw that I don't even consider the 20 strikes a second thing canon so conceding here won't make Bane or whoever 4 times as fast as GG in my books. So no need to worry about that, I'm just explaining the reasoning.

Stigma
I's leaning towards team 2.

Assuming this is Orbalisk Bane his battle with Vitiate will take a while.

Plagueis/Caedus duo should be able to put down even DE Sidious. Come to think about it this duo could wreck havoc among any Jedi/Sith.

carthage
This is weakling DOE Bane I believe, but yeah even as bad as Bane is he can probably hold off Vitiate.

I'm still not sure for this one, DE Palpatine can mindrape Plagueis or drain either of them. Can he even really die actually assuming he can just use essence transfer and go into Caedus or Plagueis and lolstomp the team.

Stigma
Yeah, with DoE Bane Vitiate has a clear edge.

On the othe hand, I'm not sure that Palpatine will be able to use mindrape on Plagueis or Cadeus in the midst of a batlle. On the other, other hand, Luke was able to sucessfully fool Caedus so a superior telapath like Sids should be able to, I guess.

When it comes to essence transfer, I really dunno. Would be creepy though.

carthage
Well essence transfer can probably only be used in a break iirc, even Weakling Bane had to wait in a lull in combat to try and (fail) to use it against Zannah.

It might be different for Sidious who is immeasurably more powerful than failure Bane. Sidious is also more powerful than either of them in the force, this one is tough.

Stigma
True, Sidious has them beat in force power and mastery and Force Storm just might be the game changer here.

On the other hand, it's hard for me to imagine that Caedus and Plagueis duo would be unable to beat him, especially as I place them as top Sith Lords #2 and #3.

One thing that's certain is that Bane dies stick out tongue

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stigma
Yeah, with DoE Bane Vitiate has a clear edge..

Its every character in their prime. So if you think Bane's prime is RoT.....

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ah wait, this is Orbalisk Bane?

Team 2 then, most likely.

S_W_LeGenD
Orbalisks are vulnerable to Sith powers such as Force lightning.

Team 1 is going to make heavy use of Force powers in this confrontation, inclusion of Emperor Vitiate ensures this combat strategy. Therefore, orbalisks are a big disadvantage for Darth Bane in this confrontation.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Sinious *snip*
Because I don't want to debate this a third time, i will just point out to the culmination of an argument between a SWTOR user and LeGenD, in which LeGenD lost:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6603433&postcount=414

All of that Caedus did without a nexus and with minimal prep, almost everything Vitiate has done has been with prep and/or a nexus and/or a ritual.

Caedus needs to be recognized for being absolutely a power house in his own right, but as usual he gets over looked, just like Krayt.

Emperordmb
Pointing out LeGenD's failures as an argument against SWTOR peeps is a low blow. Not even the SWTOR supporters on here take him seriously. Because, unlike PT wankers, SWTOR wankers don't endorse and support the most ridiculous member of their flock.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Pointing out LeGenD's failures as an argument against SWTOR peeps is a low blow. Not even the SWTOR supporters on here take him seriously.

I didn't mean it as an argument for or against SWTOR users whatsoever, I quit that forum too long ago, however they do have a pretty un-biased set of regulars that I lurk the debates of every now and then.

What I more meant was that even LeGenD(who seems to be the resident TOR expert) couldn't put Vitiate over Caedus in a genuine well rounded debate.

Call me lazy but I'm tired of arguing who is most powerful in 'x'.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Pointing out LeGenD's failures as an argument against SWTOR peeps is a low blow. Not even the SWTOR supporters on here take him seriously. Because, unlike PT wankers, SWTOR wankers don't endorse and support the most ridiculous member of their flock.

They actually did support LeGenD most of the time until (relatively) recently. Something has changed. :no2:

Emperordmb
Originally posted by NewGuy01
They actually did support LeGenD most of the time until (relatively) recently. Something has changed. :no2:
Perhaps it was LeGenD's fervent arguing that Vitiate>Ones of Mortis, Skotia≥Dooku, and Thanaton>>>>Bane and Sidious in lightning.

And that smiley doesn't work here.

Sinious
Originally posted by AncientPower
Because I don't want to debate this a third time, i will just point out to the culmination of an argument between a SWTOR user and LeGenD, in which LeGenD lost:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6603433&postcount=414

All of that Caedus did without a nexus and with minimal prep, almost everything Vitiate has done has been with prep and/or a nexus and/or a ritual.

Caedus needs to be recognized for being absolutely a power house in his own right, but as usual he gets over looked, just like Krayt.

Yeah right, Im not gonna spend my time reading that. If you have arguments present them and if not, Im fine with Vitiate remaining above Caedus.

Oneness
In an all-out fight Vititiate would lose to fricken RotS Anakin.

But in a raw Force battle Nihilus is worth one hundred Yodas, and Vitiate is even more powerful. You could have like an army of Darth Plageuis-level Sith and in a raw force battle, no sabers, Vitiate would kill them all in .3 seconds.

In a saber+force battle team 2 decimates.

Oneness
Tactics and physical stats + lightsaber skill are highly underestimated here.

The Nightsisters were the modern day Sith species of the OT series - they were Gods compared to Sidious or Yoda in Force power and knowledge yet Mace Windu could slay the best of them.

Selenial
Originally posted by NewGuy01
They actually did support LeGenD most of the time until (relatively) recently. Something has changed. :no2:

About the time of my arrival believe it or not.

Seeing as me joining this forum was entirely a personal conquest against LeGenD... Makes sense.

Nephthys
He sure does have a way with people, don't he?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
They actually did support LeGenD most of the time until (relatively) recently. Something has changed. :no2:

thumb up

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because I don't want to debate this a third time, i will just point out to the culmination of an argument between a SWTOR user and LeGenD, in which LeGenD lost:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6603433&postcount=414

All of that Caedus did without a nexus and with minimal prep, almost everything Vitiate has done has been with prep and/or a nexus and/or a ritual.

Caedus needs to be recognized for being absolutely a power house in his own right, but as usual he gets over looked, just like Krayt.


Don't waist your time with Sinious. I've already exposed him of his bias, and he's as bad as LeGenD. In another thread he told me he doesn't use Vitiate's off-screen or prep feats in mid-combat, then when he has nothing else to cling to, those are the feats he harps on.

Just leave it.

Sinious
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
thumb up




Don't waist your time with Sinious. I've already exposed him of his bias, and he's as bad as LeGenD. In another thread he told me he doesn't use Vitiate's off-screen or prep feats in mid-combat, then when he has nothing else to cling to, those are the feats he harps on.

Just leave it.

Again, you exposed only how stupid you are.

You ignore legit posts and feats when you're out of answers and then pretend that you've proven something about the character you so childishly underrate. Great job buddy. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Oneness
Even Marka Ragnos purportedly possessed a greater range of capabilities than Caedus: just from what we've seen.

Vitiate was a scholar, and employed a far greater intuitive depth of arcane and ritualistic practices than Marka Ragnos, the Nightsisters, and even Plagueis and Sidious. Vitiate was capable of warping the space time continuum like DE Sidious, capable of corrupting life on a galactic scale like Plagueis - he was more prodigious in all ethereal abilities than any other Sith; and he absorbed as much energy as the anomalous Darth Nihilus in his time.

Sidious, Anakin Solo, Plageuis, and Bane were all prodigies of ethereal elements of the Force in their own way (although Sidious not so much if you exclude DE in which he had to become insane in order to get these ethereal powers down after his death). Sidious was by far the greatest of all these Sith Lords in that he was more cunning, and clever - and in combat his powers were far more applicable than were those of Caedus or Vitiate; plus his deductive genius would have made him more than capable of slaying Vitiate one on one.

Oneness
Sidious would most likely be defeated by either Bane or Plagueis due to their styles of combat, especially Plagueis as he was slightly more powerful in the Force. Although he'd defeat the likes of Zannah who stalemated Bane, it's a bit more complicated than ABC logic.

Sidious would defeat Vader by a hair's breadth, Mace Windu was more than a threat for him although he'd defeat Windu more than not - and Yoda's chances for victory against Sidious is surprisingly slim. More surprising is that Yoda'd defeat Plagueis more than not.

I'd hate to admit bias to my set but Maulkiller'd potentially be the most dominant combatant in the mythos overall. Although there're many who'd win most rounds against him due to their specific styles; none come to mind actually.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Oneness
In an all-out fight Vititiate would lose to fricken RotS Anakin.

erm

Originally posted by Oneness
But in a raw Force battle Nihilus is worth one hundred Yodas,

http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

Originally posted by Oneness
and Vitiate is even more powerful.

thumb down

Sinious
Skills is such a party pooper.

Oneness
Originally posted by Sinious
Skills is such a party pooper. All of them have skills.

It's a matter of where they're applicable and where they're not applicable.

One can't apply the ability to scrape up a planet's crust to direct combat because Sidious would die as well...

One can't apply an uncontrolled and untamed amount of telekinesis, Force lightning, mind control, and precognition to a battle here and now as well as someone who has these powers, albeit to a lesser degree, perfectly honed and at the battle-ready.

Oneness
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
erm Hero of Tython.

Sinious
Originally posted by Oneness
All of them have skills.

It's a matter of where they're applicable and where they're not applicable.

One can't apply the ability to scrape up a planet's crust to direct combat because Sidious would die as well...

One can't apply an uncontrollable and untamed amount telekinesis, shadow clones, Force lightning, an immense ability to enslave minds and see into the future to a battle here and now as opposed to someone who has these powers to a lesser degree perfectly honed and at the battle-ready.

I was talking about SupremeSkillz smile

Oneness
Originally posted by Sinious
I was talking about SupremeSkillz smile #Maulkiller

That's what you get when you cross someone who's undergone the most intense level of combat training in the mythos, been cut in half at the torso, and electrocuted half to death with someone else who's undergone just as thorough a regimen, been impaled at the torso, and electrocuted to death.

Vitiate could amp Maulkiller, and provide telepathic and elemental support the likes of which has never been seen, to an unbeatable combat level if they were a duo.

Sinious
huh

Dude I was talking about the member who just posted under you whose name is XSUPREMEXSKILLZ.

Oneness
Originally posted by Sinious
huh

Dude I was talking about the member who just posted under you whose name is XSUPREMEXSKILLZ. Dude, I'm ****ing drunk-nerding out on sw laughing

Sinious
doctor

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Because I don't want to debate this a third time, i will just point out to the culmination of an argument between a SWTOR user and LeGenD, in which LeGenD lost:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6603433&postcount=414

All of that Caedus did without a nexus and with minimal prep, almost everything Vitiate has done has been with prep and/or a nexus and/or a ritual.

Caedus needs to be recognized for being absolutely a power house in his own right, but as usual he gets over looked, just like Krayt.
I disengaged from that debate due to lack of interest, not due to lack of arguments.

I have created a detailed profile about Emperor Vitiate here: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/

After the aforementioned effort, I leave the analysis part on other members.

My observation is that fellow member Beniboybling overlooks some aspects/information about Emperor Vitiate in his comparative analysis of the characters. He might have some explanation for his selectivity but it leaves room for arguments.

Originally posted by AncientPower
What I more meant was that even LeGenD(who seems to be the resident TOR expert) couldn't put Vitiate over Caedus in a genuine well rounded debate.
See above

Originally posted by AncientPower
Call me lazy but I'm tired of arguing who is most powerful in 'x'.
I have life besides discussing Star Wars. I have noticed that some of my responses have fueled resentment against me from some members, therefore, I have decided to not participate in "MOST POWERFUL" topics and minimize my participation in "VERSUS" topics.

I, honestly, don't care about rankings in Star Wars anymore. Whether Emperor Vitiate ranks # 1 or # 5, I don't care. However, I continue to believe that Emperor Vitiate is among the TOP TIER heavy-weights of the mythos and this belief is endorsed in Legends continuity officially, and that he is capable of defeating any Jedi or Sith under right circumstances (hopefully, people won't have an issue with "right circumstances" point at-least). But a consensus on "rankings" aspect of Star Wars is highly unlikely realistically due to difference of opinions among fans of the mythos.

I feel inclined to employ my real-life maturity in the discussions about Star Wars as well, lesson learned from past experiences. I don't want people hating me/harbor grudge against me for my views about fictional topics that have no value in life. Peace.

Selenial
Originally posted by AncientPower
Because I don't want to debate this a third time, i will just point out to the culmination of an argument between a SWTOR user and LeGenD, in which LeGenD lost:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6603433&postcount=414

All of that Caedus did without a nexus and with minimal prep, almost everything Vitiate has done has been with prep and/or a nexus and/or a ritual.

Caedus needs to be recognized for being absolutely a power house in his own right, but as usual he gets over looked, just like Krayt.

We warned you. You were playing with powers beyond your comprehension and we warned you.

Where before he was but lurking, thou hast re-summoned him unto this plane and there will be death. There will be consequences.

You will pay for this.

Sinious
Oh so now its a force fight? Team 1 with less difficulty then.

NewGuy01
It always was a force fight.

Sinious
Seriously?

Either no one told me, or no one knew. confused

Selenial
It's in the title..... ._.

Trocity
Originally posted by Oneness
Even Marka Ragnos purportedly possessed a greater range of capabilities than Caedus: just from what we've seen.

???

Sinious
Originally posted by Selenial
It's in the title..... ._.

It was a joke...

Nalaniel
Originally posted by Trocity
???

Originally posted by Oneness
Dude, I'm ****ing drunk-nerding out on sw laughing

I hope I could help.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Oneness
Dude, I'm ****ing drunk-nerding out on sw laughing
Happens to the best of us.

Arhael
The best indication that Luke and Caedus have comparable TK is feat of holding b-wing in place.


"He grabbed the vessel in the Force and held it in place, then opened fire with his laser cannons. The startled B-wing pilot applied more power, trying to break free. Luke drew on the Force more heavily to counter the maneuvering thrusters, and all of the energy flowing through his body began to make his skin nettle.
...
Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above."

Holding b-wing made Luke's skin nettle, here is why:
"During the past year, he and Jacen had been had been working on overload techniques , so he know could endure the pain and fatigue almost indefinitely. His body would pay a steep price, aging a year in a matter of minutes, but he knew he would not collapse"

Based on that it can be concluded that holding b-wing during flight in space took tremendous effort that required Luke to use that overloading technique. Yet, Jacen had no problem replicating it as well and that's before he became more powerful as Caedus.

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