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Scotland voting later this week to vote for their independence of Britain. Interested to see what happens, many think its gonna happen.

It's all pretty even or slightly in favor of independence depending on what poll you look at.

I am Scottish myself but living in England and it will be again if it goes through as there looks to be fees that are introduced to cross the border. Which is annoying as I go there to visit family often.

Salmond has a good idea by wanting to control his own country and stuff (like removing the bedroom tax) among other things. But it's whether he will actually be able to make Scotland a sustainable country without making these sweeping statements.

The UK will still exist, it will just be smaller in terms of land and population.

This will be one of the costliest divorces in history.

I read from a Scotsman that my American jimmies should be rustled over the UK and how it has treated Scotland because of 1 major issue:

They taxed Scotland, without Scotland's say-so. This amounted to "Taxation without Representation."

I do not know the details on this. Like, did Scotland not have anyone present in parliament when these taxes were decided upon? I cannot believe that is true. There's just no way that a country as large and populous as Scotland would have no representation in parliament.

Scotland has full parliamentary representation. What your commentator meant was that there have been times where the MPs in Scotland didn't want the taxes but were outvoted by the majority in the UK as a whole.

It is therefore a poor argument from your Scotsman for several reasons:

1. The comparison is poor. The pre-US Colonies weren't saying "We want representation so we can not be taxed", they were saying "If we are going to be taxed, we deserve representation." Scotland has what the colonies were asking for- they have a voice in the running of the UK, and indeed Scotland is the main reason the Tories don't win every election. Scotland is actively making a difference.

2. You can't join a democratic voting system and then complain that you have to follow laws that the House voted for. That's kinda how the system works. Any part of a nation will be, very often, subject to laws that do not benefit that particular region- whilst also being subject to laws that DO benefit them and not others.

3. In any case, Scotland has been given (and will be given if it stays) increasing control over its own taxation.

-

The bigger deal is that Scotland believes it gets a poor deal from the current constitutional arrangements; that's really where the argument is.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I read from a Scotsman that my American jimmies should be rustled over the UK and how it has treated Scotland because of 1 major issue:

They taxed Scotland, without Scotland's say-so. This amounted to "Taxation without Representation."

I do not know the details on this. Like, did Scotland not have anyone present in parliament when these taxes were decided upon? I cannot believe that is true. There's just no way that a country as large and populous as Scotland would have no representation in parliament.

There are 59 seats in the House of Commons for Scots and 6 of them are held by the SNP (the party Salmond is involved with)

Unless this was longer ago. But to be honest now I think both sides will now be bringing up every little detail to throw a knife in the others back.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Scotland has full parliamentary representation. What your commentator meant was that there have been times where the MPs in Scotland didn't want the taxes but were outvoted by the majority in the UK as a whole.

It is therefore a poor argument from your Scotsman for several reasons:

1. The comparison is poor. The pre-US Colonies weren't saying "We want representation so we can not be taxed", they were saying "If we are going to be taxed, we deserve representation." Scotland has what the colonies were asking for.

2. You can't join a democratic voting system and then complain that you have to follow laws that the House voted for. That's kinda how the system works.

3. In any case, Scotland has been given (and will be given if it stays) increasing control over its own taxation.

-

The bigger deal is that Scotland believes it gets a poor deal from the current constitutional arrangements; that's really where the argument is.

Yep, to be honest the problem is Salmond has been making these sweeping statements about we only have one chance in a lifetime and we will make this country successful. But it will be so much different when/if he gets independence.

I think voting No and going with a Devo-Max could be better.

IMO we should be should be looking for greater unity, not separation.

Still looking out for the One Earth future.

Likewise- I think the long-term trend should be about moving together, rather than apart. I also think Scotland benefits more than it loss from the Union anyway; a lot of this is really about hating the Tories, but getting independence for that reason won't actually benefit people much in the long term.

Lewis Grassic Gibbon- whose works about Scotland ironically were used by Scottish nationalists as part of their platform, despite Lewis being pretty much the complete opposite of a nationalist- summed it up well:

"What a curse on the world are small nations."

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Scotland has full parliamentary representation. What your commentator meant was that there have been times where the MPs in Scotland didn't want the taxes but were outvoted by the majority in the UK as a whole.

It is therefore a poor argument from your Scotsman for several reasons:

1. The comparison is poor. The pre-US Colonies weren't saying "We want representation so we can not be taxed", they were saying "If we are going to be taxed, we deserve representation." Scotland has what the colonies were asking for- they have a voice in the running of the UK, and indeed Scotland is the main reason the Tories don't win every election. Scotland is actively making a difference.

2. You can't join a democratic voting system and then complain that you have to follow laws that the House voted for. That's kinda how the system works. Any part of a nation will be, very often, subject to laws that do not benefit that particular region- whilst also being subject to laws that DO benefit them and not others.

3. In any case, Scotland has been given (and will be given if it stays) increasing control over its own taxation.

-

The bigger deal is that Scotland believes it gets a poor deal from the current constitutional arrangements; that's really where the argument is.


That makes a whole lot more sense. Some of the pro-independence Scottish are using quite a bit of hyperbole to try and win favor to their arguments. Fibbing to ignorant Yanks is clearly one of those ways.

I should note that it wasn't Jaden who told me the stuff about taxes.

I literally don't understand why there's so much fervor for this in Scotland now.

I mean...isn't Europe (with exceptions like Catolonia) past that petty bullshit?

Britain has their main nuclear sub missile base in Scotland, and Scotland is declaring themselves a nuclear free country. I wonder whats gonna happen.

The independence push has always had its ups and downs.

Basically, it goes through cycles. It just so happens that more want it now than ever before based on the events that led up to the current state of affairs.


For many years, during a lull on the independence push, many Scots just stewed in simmering anger and spite towards the UK. I say this because even during the down times when there is not nearly as much support for Independence, many Scots can be worked up into a frenzy over this discussion with a single sentence.


Now, that pot is boiling. If this vote fails, then perhaps someone will turn down the heat and the pot will start to simmer, again...until someone makes it boil.

Edit - I enjoy the fact that "One_Angry_Scot" is posting in this thread. cheers

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Britain has their main nuclear sub missile base in Scotland, and Scotland is declaring themselves a nuclear free country. I wonder whats gonna happen.

Yeah Trident is based in Scotland. One risk is they could lose tons of jobs by moving it.

The thing is they are a nuclear free country anyway. It's property of England but Salmond uses the fact that it's in Scotland to imply he owns it in a way.

It's not like were under risk of being invaded for possessing WMD's.

the closest thing we have got to a WMD is a p***ed up Glaswegian throwing a rotten Haggis at you.

That can do damage.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Yeah Trident is based in Scotland. One risk is they could lose tons of jobs by moving it.

The thing is they are a nuclear free country anyway. It's property of England but Salmond uses the fact that it's in Scotland to imply he owns it in a way.

It's not like were under risk of being invaded for possessing WMD's.

the closest thing we have got to a WMD is a p***ed up Glaswegian throwing a rotten Haggis at you.

That can do damage.

Very true, as Rob said the divorce is going to be very costly.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The independence push has always had its ups and downs.

Basically, it goes through cycles. It just so happens that more want it now than ever before based on the events that led up to the current state of affairs.


For many years, during a lull on the independence push, many Scots just stewed in simmering anger and spite towards the UK. I say this because even during the down times when there is not nearly as much support for Independence, many Scots can be worked up into a frenzy over this discussion with a single sentence.


Now, that pot is boiling. If this vote fails, then perhaps someone will turn down the heat and the pot will start to simmer, again...until someone makes it boil.

Edit - I enjoy the fact that "One_Angry_Scot" is posting in this thread. cheers
Well, I think it would be more accurate to say that for the first time when it had real traction the UK government is putting it to a vote.

Obviously the Scots were pretty keen on independence for most of the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period.

Yeah, and I like that he sounds more like One_Fair_And_Balanced_Scot right now.

Looks like its not happening, UK is staying United.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Looks like its not happening, UK is staying United.

And for the best I reckon. A lot of Salmonds argument has been base don a pipe dream.

It's gonna be so close.

Its a good thing its not happening.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Its a good thing its not happening.

I mean we won't know properly until about 6:30 AM UK time but polls suggest the No vote is ahead by a slight margin.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I mean we won't know properly until about 6:30 AM UK time but polls suggest the No vote is ahead by a slight margin.

Yup by like 6 votes I think.

Still too early to call, but unless the Yes camp wins just about every one of the remaining counts (by 10-20% in every case) then Scotland will stay in the UK.

In the end, not as close as predicted- the early yougov poll pretty much got it right; 55% to 45% percent in favour of saying in the UK. Looks like the undecided crowd pretty much went for staying in on the day.

Too much uncertainty with the Yes future, whereas the No camp had promised further devolution and local autonomy in Scotland if they voted No.

This is the best result for everyone in the UK and Europe.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Too much uncertainty with the Yes future, whereas the No camp had promised further devolution and local autonomy in Scotland if they voted No.

This is the best result for everyone in the UK and Europe.

Very much so.

Safe to say I am not One_Angry_Scot this time round.

More of a One_Happy_Scot.

Glad the right choice was made.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Too much uncertainty with the Yes future, whereas the No camp had promised further devolution and local autonomy in Scotland if they voted No.

This is the best result for everyone in the UK and Europe.

Except maybe the Scottish, but they can always leave the UK next time around.

Originally posted by Bentley
Except maybe the Scottish, but they can always leave the UK next time around.

That'll be ages till another referendum is even spoken of.

YOU SHALL NOT PASS SCOTLAND!

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
That'll be ages till another referendum is even spoken of.

With a 40%+ of yes? One can only hope.