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The master of Makashi and apprentice to two of the most powerful Jedi and Sith Vs The powerful apprentice of the Sith'ari himself"

Lightsabers.

Force Powers.

All-Out.

Rules: Best argument(s) wins. Remember quantity doesn't equal quality, a lot of people can say Cin Drallig "Slaughterhouse" or "LOLSTOMPS" Sidious, but we all know that isn't true.


Note: I'm interested in hearing your opinions and am open to any opinions that might differ from mine. However i ask that we keep it civilized please, insults and lowballing of characters are not going to help you or your argument.


Who wins this?

Reported for spite (hate to see Zannah lose another versus).

Zannah gets stomped

She's less skilled on a massive scale (she's only beaten a featless Half trained Jedi knight) and she only beat Bane by utilizing a nexus.

Tyranus has defeated Tholme, Sora Bulq, Mace Windu, Quinlan Vos, Anakin Skywalker, Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, General Grievous, Obi Wan Kenobi, fought evenly with Yoda in AOTC, and is considered among the greatest Sith lords and Jedi knights ever produced

He outclasses Zannah in TK, speed, force ability, and would lolstomp her in a fight

Perhaps sabers only would have been more even.

She doesn't have the saber feats to compare.

There would be more discussion to be had.

In terms of sabers Dooku simply lacks a way to get through Zannah's defense. He doesn't have Bane's strength or speed or anything that would pose a threat to her defensive wall. You can't get through her defense through footwork or positioning or precision, the hallmarks of Makashi. His only way through would be to replicate Bane's strategy and force her back into unfavorable ground, but as I said he lacks the attributes to press her enough to make her retreat. And as an old man he will tire well before her, despite his forms efficiency. He's been shown to be out of breath after duels on multiple occasions as I recall, reinforcing this point.

In terms of the Force Dooku also lacks a way to threaten Zannah. His TK and lightning are no issues for her. Bane is superior in terms of lightning and at least equal to Dooku in TK and he failed to bring those powers to bare against her in any significant fashion. Meanwhile Zannah has her sorcery, something Dooku has been troubled with when faced with Talzin. Most notably though, Dooku lacks feats for mental resistance, so Zannah should be more than capable of taking him down with her mental spells.

All out, Zannah would handle Dooku as she planned to do to Bane. Forming her defensive wall she will build up her power while he spends himself against her and unleash an unstoppable mental assault that he will fall to.

Lmao he had no problem getting through Kenobi's defense whether through superior footwork or using the force. He also had enough strength to boot Ventress back with a single kick, you don't have to be a huge douche like Bane to kick her and send her back:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3937399-a1r1s.gif

Cool story that you think he can't get through her defense when again he had no problem smashing through Bulq's, Kenobi's, and Anakin's whether through sabers or using his TK. Bane blasted her back with a force scream, she has no feats in defense in her prime to suggest she can't get hurled back by a TK wave.





When he was fighting Anakin ROTS and Kenobi ROTS, and gradually getting beaten down by a duo of infinitely superior duelists to Zannah Anakin and Obi Wan



Bane's TK feats in DOE are pathetic and lightning is not an issue, she can just absorb it with a saber. In terms of TK Dooku's force abilities have been the end for Kenobi, Bulq, and others. Also Zannah requires prep time for her sorcery and can't just use them on whim when being pressed (which Dooku is capable of doing)

-Rule of Two

Given that Dooku is faster, stronger, more skilled, and has superior TK feats to Zannah she won't have a chance to prep her spells. Sarro has no strength feats to compare to Tyranus (whose kicked Ventress across a room, kiced Obi wan down stairs, and held a bladelock with Kenobi and Vader) both of whom have broken durasteel/smashed droids. There is no basis for your claim that he can't break through her defenses when he's done it to Kenobi/Bulq/Vos/Ventress






Nope. Nice scripting the fight though bro. Bane is slower, less skilled, and has inferior force feats to Dooku. He won't give her enough time to prep because he doesn't need to bear down on her, he just needs to ragdoll her like he did to Kenobi

Carthage, I put you on ignore because you were being tiresome. So I can't read that reply of yours, don't bother.

You don't bother because you're an inferior debater.

But again I accept your concession. How many arguments have you lost from Stark, to Ant, to Sidious, to Tempest, and Nargaroth?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Carthage, I put you on ignore because you were being tiresome. So I can't read that reply of yours, don't bother.

Neph, thank you for actually following the rules and for being the only cool-headed person discussing this without trying to troll and lowball characters. I appreciate that.

Zannah is weak.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Neph, thank you for actually following the rules and for being the only cool-headed person discussing this without trying to troll and lowball characters. I appreciate that.

No problem. I'm open to non-trollish counter-arguments.

No?



Why not, exactly? Dooku's footwork and precision worked well enough against Obi-Wan.



Why's that? His own approach should be more effective against clumsy ol' Zannah.



Not necessarily.



This is true, which is why Zannah poses a very real threat to Dooku. Should be noted that Talzin is more powerful a sorceress than she, though.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Neph, thank you for actually following the rules and for being the only cool-headed person discussing this without trying to troll and lowball characters. I appreciate that.

He refused to respond to an argument i,e he conceded. I was very cool, Neph is just a terrible debater and doesn't go by feats so much as his own worthless opinion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No problem. I'm open to non-trollish counter-arguments.

Just like you are with Ant

So much hate for Zannah in this thread.

Its because she is a weak character and a horrible excuse for a Dark lord of the Sith.

She doesn't deserve to be counted among the greats of the Sith

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No?

No. But in the interest of not starting up the Bane speed argument again, why don't we just agree they're equal. It's not as if Bane's speed was actually relevant against Zannah, who caught his blows easily regardless. So I probably shouldn't have mentioned it I think.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why not, exactly? Dooku's footwork and precision worked well enough against Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan and Zannah's defensive styles are very different. Obi-Wan uses standard lightsaber deflection to create a very flexible, crisp defense. But that allows his opponents to get in close and get around his blade with superior speed, positioning etc. Zannah's defensive wall wouldn't let Dooku *watches Obi-Wan fights*..... engage in a saberlock, kick her, catch her off-guard with the Force or really allow any of Dooku's standard attacks to be effective. You can't get around it with footwork or positioning since he can't actually get her blade out of position or create an opening. The position is a 2 meter wide circle, the opening doesn't exist.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why's that? His own approach should be more effective against clumsy ol' Zannah.

Why not what? Why not do that? Because he can't push her back.

And Zannah isn't clumsy.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not necessarily.



AT ANY RATE, Dooku isn't superior to Bane to any significant extent that would allow him to overpower Zannah in any way.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is true, which is why Zannah poses a very real threat to Dooku. Should be noted that Talzin is more powerful a sorceress than she, though.

Nah. Talzin is overrated imo.

In the end, even if Dooku can get around her defense, it would take considerable time and effort on his part. And Zannah can build up and unleash her sorcery before he can do that.

Zannah gets stomped.

Don't type Neph can't respond to arguments unless you use your own thoughts as opposed to feats.

Especially when he makes intelligent posts like this that he will never back up with anything but his own opinion

Originally posted by Nephthys

But that allows his opponents to get in close and get around his blade with superior speed, positioning etc. Zannah's defensive wall wouldn't let Dooku *watches Obi-Wan fights*..... engage in a saberlock, kick her, catch her off-guard with the Force or really allow any of Dooku's standard attacks to be effective.

Bane was on her in an instant, his lightsaber slashing viciously, his heavy boots kicking and stomping at her prone body. Zannah thrashed and twisted on the ground, her lightsaber flailing desperately to parry Bane's blade. She felt a sharp crack as the toe of his boot caught her in the ribs, but she rolled with the impact and managed to end up back on her feet.

So while I agree Zannah won't be taken out by any kicks, it's not like she isn't vulnerable. Her sorcery also takes away from her defense so it's not as if she can do both at the same time. Either way, Dooku should be able to resist them, unless for some reason you doubt his will. Finally, while she's preparing this, she can't pay attention to anything else, which Dooku can use to his advantage. All in all, I'm not seeing the impregnable defense you're seeing. From his lightsaber, sure, but Dooku has more at his disposal.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Bane was on her in an instant, his lightsaber slashing viciously, his heavy
boots kicking and stomping at her prone body. Zannah thrashed and
twisted on the ground, her lightsaber flailing desperately to parry Bane's
blade. She felt a sharp crack as the toe of his boot caught her in the ribs,
but she rolled with the impact and managed to end up back on her feet.

So while I agree Zannah won't be taken out by any kicks, it's not like she isn't vulnerable.

That happened after she'd tripped.

Like I said, Dooku doesn't have a way to replicate those circumstances.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Her sorcery also takes away from her defense so it's not as if she can do both at the same time.

She can just jump away like she did against Bane. If a duelist as aggressive as Bane couldn't prevent a wounded Zannah from using sorcery, Dooku won't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Either way, Dooku should be able to resist them, unless for some reason you doubt his will.

Dooku has no showings indicating he can resist her attack. And he lacks the pain resistance Bane has, that let him resist the attack despite it making his head feel like it was being cut apart by a million burning knives.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Finally, while she's preparing this, she can't pay attention to anything else, which Dooku can use to his advantage.

Lol, nah. This is never said to be the case.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All in all, I'm not seeing the impregnable defense you're seeing. From his lightsaber, sure, but Dooku has more at his disposal.

None of which will effect Zannah.

I'm going with Zannah. Dooku hasn't shown enough willpower or mental fortitude to suggest he could resist them.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm going with Zannah. Dooku hasn't shown enough willpower or mental fortitude to suggest he could resist them.

Ane Zannah has shown nothing that indicates she does t get ragdolled, she needs time to prep he illusions as shown by when she got pounded by Sarro and Bane. Also Dooku has no fears or anything Zannah to work off of , i,e the burden of proof is on you to suggest how they'd affect him when they've only worked on fodder and Bane only when he relented on his assault

Originally posted by Nephthys
That happened after she'd tripped.

Like I said, Dooku doesn't have a way to replicate those circumstances.

She tripped because she couldn't pay attention. Her using Illusions means she can't focus on anything but that and Dooku. I don't see why Dooku couldn't use that to his advantage. She was barely holding Bane before that.


That's because Bane let up on his attack instead of dodging, more stupidity on Bane's part than skill on Zannah's.


Except pain resistance has nothing to do with resisting Sith sorcery. The strength of the opponent's will does.


Why do you think she tripped in the first place? She was too focused on Bane's attacks and her illusions.


Because?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She tripped because she couldn't pay attention. Her using Illusions means she can't focus on anything but that and Dooku. I don't see why Dooku couldn't use that to his advantage. She was barely holding Bane before that.

Wrong. She could pay attention, Bane just tricked her. And I don;t see how Dooku could use that to his advantage. Unlike Bane, he can't make her retreat. So he can't really utilise the environment to his benefit.


Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because Bane let up on his attack instead of dodging, more stupidity on Bane's part than skill on Zannah's.

No, its because Zannah counter-attacked to prevent him from pursuing her. Bane anticipated that and didn't. He was wary enough of her even wounded not to push his advantage.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except pain resistance has nothing to do with resisting Sith sorcery. The strength of the opponent's will does.

And try summoning the will to resist while writhing in agony. He sure didn't look like he was capable of resisting when he was screaming like a ***** from Talzin's attack.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why do you think she tripped in the first place? She was too focused on Bane's attacks and her illusions.

Maybe, but you're seriously exaggerating by saying she can't pay attention to anything else. Bane just tricked her into thinking he was herding her towards the shuttle, only to change directions and force her back over the graves.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because?

I already said, his TK and lightning aren't powerful enough to be a threat to her.

Does Dooku even have any feats of willpower worth noting?

No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrong. She could pay attention, Bane just tricked her. And I don;t see how Dooku could use that to his advantage. Unlike Bane, he can't make her retreat. So he can't really utilise the environment to his benefit.

It says she didn't notice because of her defence against Bane and her using her illusions. Yes Bane caused her to change directions, that really doesn't change the point. I don't see how Dooku isn't comparable to Bane in sabers to do the same.


Bane anticipated she was going to attack and stopped, however, Zannah stabbed forward "like a spear," something Dooku has been shown to dodge from superior duelists.


Talzin's magic > Zannah's illusions. The only thing I see comparable is her Tendrils, and she needed a nexus to use those. It's not a fair comparison.


Considering the lack of environmental, sure, but it still leaves Zannah open because she has to split her energy between gathering. She has to focus on Dooku and her Illusions; I don't see how she'll anticipates Dooku's TK.

I already get why his Lightning won't be a threat, as Zannah sho's no problem with Banes. But as far as his TK and speed are concerned, I'm still not convinced. Especially considering the point above.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It says she didn't notice because of her defence against Bane and her using her illusions. Yes Bane caused her to change directions, that really doesn't change the point. I don't see how Dooku isn't comparable to Bane in sabers to do the same.

Dooku doesn't have a random, unpredictable style where he changes his angle of attack constantly or whatever. In fact, Makashi is very fencing based. With a focus on simple movement back and forth along a clear line of attack and defense. Zannah didn't notice the graves because Bane made her reposition herself while retreating. Dooku won't make her retreat so whatever.

And Bane is superior to Dooku as a duelist.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Bane anticipated she was going to attack and stopped, however, Zannah stabbed forward "like a spear," something Dooku has been shown to dodge from superior duelists.

Good for him. I don't care. If Bane didn't feel comfortable with pursuing, Dooku shouldn't. Bane is much more aggressive and Zannah was wounded. Yet he didn't pursue her. Dooku isn't going to press the attack on a healthy Zannah with his calm, elegant style.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Talzin's magic > Zannah's illusions. The only thing I see comparable is her Tendrils, and she needed a nexus to use those. It's not a fair comparison.

Its not a question of whose magic is superior. Dooku has shown that he's susceptible to pain. Which Zannah mental attack causes a lot of.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering the lack of environmental, sure, but it still leaves Zannah open because she has to split her energy between gathering. She has to focus on Dooku and her Illusions; I don't see how she'll anticipates Dooku's TK.

Well she has precognition.

And she has... eyes. She might not see a grave behind her, but that doesn't mean she can't see Dooku raise a hand to use TK.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I already get why his Lightning won't be a threat, as Zannah sho's no problem with Banes. But as far as his TK and speed are concerned, I'm still not convinced. Especially considering the point above.

Theres no reason Dooku should press her with TK. And with speed, Bane has superior or equal speed to Dooku, yet Zannah caught his attacks "easily".

Sure.



Again with the whole wall thing. You do know that's not the entirety of Zannah's lightsaber technique, right? If it were, she'd basically be shit.




Why not?



Why not?



I seem to recall Bane took up such a strategy in their fight, and it seemed effective enough.



Why do you infer that Bane's method is the only option? It seems to me that Dooku's approach would work rather well here.



Accept it, bro.



Sounds good.



Agreed. She's still a better Sorceress than Zannah, though.

Dooku doesn't need Bane's attack style to beat her. Bane's "Attack" style wasn't even enough to gain him a victory over his apprentice, whereas, the Count has defeated opponents that are more skilled than either Bane or Zannah. Zannah's tripping over the grave is a result of her own stupidity and lack of tactical awareness, i,e the same thing that nearly cost her the duel (she would've died) had there not be a nexus handy. Also he doesn't need to "make her retreat" he can just dominate her with TK.



Why do you keep scripting the fight? How is Dooku's attacking style relevant to how Bane achieved it? Zannah can't generate offense against Dooku so the ball is squarely in his court on how he goes about it, and when he does go on the offense he sent Ventress flying, ragdolled Kenobi, and sent Bulq flying with FL. Dooku has gone on the offense and the other duelist lost, Zannah has struggled with Sarro and Bane. Dooku is more skilled than either of them



Not relevant to the fact that there is no evidence Zannah's illusions/spells will work on him




Yeah her precognition that was so great it allowed Sarro to pound her, allowed her to trip over a grave, have her ribs broken, and failed in helping her prevent Bane from attempting essence transfer on her.




Prove all of that.

Why is it relevant if this is a fight that takes place on neutral ground? Zannah has no way to gather darkside power for her tendrils, and Dooku is faster and his TK can press Zannah (as it has to Ventress, Vos, Kenobi) to where she can't gather power.




Like she jumped away from Bane after he blasted her with a force scream, was sent flying by a TK wave, after she was knocked back by a kick. Dooku is just as aggressive as Bane, he just doesn't need to focus on power attacks as he can easily just take out Zannah with TK.




Zannah has no showings indicating she can summon her illusions/spells at will while being pressed and or hit with TK. Dooku is faster than Zannah and attacks from all angles as opposed to Bane who is predictably nothing but power attacks.



Her defense isn't even close to impregnable, she allowed a kick to send her back from Bane who is much slower than Bane. Dooku has sent Ventress and Kenobi flying and can easily do the same to Zannah

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku doesn't have a random, unpredictable style where he changes his angle of attack constantly or whatever. In fact, Makashi is very fencing based. With a focus on simple movement back and forth along a clear line of attack and defense. Zannah didn't notice the graves because Bane made her reposition herself while retreating. Dooku won't make her retreat so whatever.

Why not? You don't need a random, unpredictable style to pressure Zannah. She seemed to have enough trouble keeping up with Bane's speed and strength during their duel, and while I accept that Bane is stronger than Dooku, at least in style,

Is very debatable. Dooku has kept up with Anakin and Obi-Wan and called them among the best saberist he's ever met, as did Windu, and whether you think they perform well or not, they are the go to duo of the Order for a reason.


By your own words, they don't fight in the same style. Zannah wasn't pressed because she was wounded, she was wounded because she was pressed. Fighting the way Dooku does, he would have no problem taking advantage of the situation. You caring or not has no impact on this.

Everyone's susceptible to pain. But using the argument that because Talzin is able to cause Dooku pain, so should Zannah is unsound simply because of Talzin's place in herself. She's much more powerful and thus would not be a good baseline to judge where Dooku's pain threshold is. Regardless, it's doubtful that Dooku would even let Zannah get to this point. He wouldn't need to stop attacking, and Zannah would not have her opening.

She could hardly anticipate Bane's movements.

How would she have enough to prepare for Dooku's TK while constantly defending herself? This is assuming that Zannah can even defend against it, whereas in the case of Bane she clearly couldn't.

Zannah was pressed the entire duel is one of the better suited styles to prop her defense. Regardless, I'm not seeing the reason Zannah shouldn't be pressed by Dooku with the Force, when Bane was able to even when she held the advantage in their earlier confrontation.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure.

Cool.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again with the whole wall thing. You do know that's not the entirety of Zannah's lightsaber technique, right? If it were, she'd basically be shit.

I'm aware, but it is the main component of her style.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why not?

Her style involves deflecting the opponents lightsaber with her spinning. Theres no opportunity to engage in a saberlock.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why not?

Unlike Obi-Wan, Zannah has good force defenses.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I seem to recall Bane took up such a strategy in their fight, and it seemed effective enough.

As I said, Makashi is built around creating a line and advancing and retreating along that line with minimal movement, according to the Jedi Path. He's not going to be running around Zannah like Bane was and doing so would just tire him out quicker.

And that's not what I meant about footwork and positioning. Makashi is built around unbalancing an opponent, positioning yourself for maximum effectiveness and attacking at their weakest point. That's not the same as circling around and rapidly changing the direction you're attacking from.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why do you infer that Bane's method is the only option? It seems to me that Dooku's approach would work rather well here.

In what way? He lacks strength, unpredictability or much of anything that could push her back. And theres no specific terrain here for him to use.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sounds good.

Thanks for not pushing that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Agreed. She's still a better Sorceress than Zannah, though.

Nah. Zannah has one of the most vast collections of Sith Sorcery ever at her fingertips, despite how Krapyshan tried to write it as much mental attacks, and massive amounts of Force power.

Sha'Gi>Zannah.

Sha`Gi is underrated. If Grievous had of fought him straight up instead of crushing him when he wasn't prepared, he might have lost.

Sha'Gi is like my favorite ****ing character ever.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why not? You don't need a random, unpredictable style to pressure Zannah. She seemed to have enough trouble keeping up with Bane's speed and strength during their duel, and while I accept that Bane is stronger than Dooku, at least in style,

Not really. She only had some problems with his strength when he did heavy 2-handed strikes, but was still able to recover fast with no loss of advantage. And she had no issues at all with his speed even before she starts up her main defense.

I feel like you wanted to say more though, lol. But you've given me no reason to think she'd have issues with his offense.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Is very debatable. Dooku has kept up with Anakin and Obi-Wan and called them among the best saberist he's ever met, as did Windu, and whether you think they perform well or not, they are the go to duo of the Order for a reason.

And Bane's speed and strength is insane and he's vastly underrated as a technical duelist. He's faster and stronger than Dooku and is more powerful than him. And power plays a big role in lightsaber duels.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
By your own words, they don't fight in the same style. Zannah wasn't pressed because she was wounded, she was wounded because she was pressed. Fighting the way Dooku does, he would have no problem taking advantage of the situation. You caring or not has no impact on this.

No, she wasn't pressed. Just because she was retreating doesn't mean she was being overpowered or anything. Theres nothing in the text that supports the idea that Bane was beating her at that point.

What situation, Zannah putting space between them? Dooku has never had an issue with letting this occur or aggressively pursued an opponent. If Zannah jumps away, Dooku isn't going to rush after her right into a counter-attack. He's smarter and calmer than that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Everyone's susceptible to pain. But using the argument that because Talzin is able to cause Dooku pain, so should Zannah is unsound simply because of Talzin's place in herself. She's much more powerful and thus would not be a good baseline to judge where Dooku's pain threshold is. Regardless, it's doubtful that Dooku would even let Zannah get to this point. He wouldn't need to stop attacking, and Zannah would not have her opening.

I'm not making the argument that because Talzin caused him pain Zannah will. I'm saying that her attack causes extreme pain, and Dooku has proven that when hit by painful attacks he does nothing more than writhe around on the floor. Its not something to do with power. Both attacks are unquestionably very painful and I see no reason why Dooku will react differently to Zannah's attack than he did to Talzin's.

Lol, Dooku isn't good enough press Zannah so hard that she can't get away.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She could hardly anticipate Bane's movements.

Blatantly untrue.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How would she have enough to prepare for Dooku's TK while constantly defending herself? This is assuming that Zannah can even defend against it, whereas in the case of Bane she clearly couldn't.

Well she wouldn't be defending herself from his lightsaber if he's attacking her with the Force, would she? She'd just defend against the Force. And lolwut? She very much could defend herself against Bane. Do you have any idea what you're talking about here?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah was pressed the entire duel is one of the better suited styles to prop her defense. Regardless, I'm not seeing the reason Zannah shouldn't be pressed by Dooku with the Force, when Bane was able to even when she held the advantage in their earlier confrontation.

No she wasn't and no Bane didn't. You've clearly no even read the damn fight, lmao.

Freshest and NewGuy are winning.

What an unbiased verdict.

I agree with Ant on this one. Zannah gets taken to the curb and forced to swallow Dooku's load.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
forced to swallow Dooku's load.

dat image.

This thread seems to be a real bastion of enlightenment, class and objectivity.

Why do you hate Dooku, man?

Well he is a racist murderer.

that's like your opinion man

Isn't that more like his opinion, man?

no

Dooku is too awesome for opinions.

Sidious one-shots Zannah via his mere presence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. She only had some problems with his strength when he did heavy 2-handed strikes, but was still able to recover fast with no loss of advantage. And she had no issues at all with his speed even before she starts up her main defense.

No issues at all? Really? The entire duel talks about Zannah being surprised by Banes speed, or how she "somehow" deflected his his blows. She didn't die, sure, but to say she had no issues is an exaggeration.

In sabers? Probably not. I know the meaning of the word "impenetrable." But the fact is Zannah would probably have to keep the utmost concentration when blocking every attack from Dooku. That's a struggle.

I agree, Bane's stronger than Dooku. I do not think he's faster or more powerful

It says she was being being driven to give ground. I don't know what that means to you, but that doesn't sound like something she did of choice. At that point, Zannah used that fact to her advantage, but it was not something she wanted to do before.

When has Dooku not closed the distance before? Just because he's calm and collected, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't pursue and opponent.

"I'm not making the argument that because Talzin caused him pain Zannah will. But both cause pain, so Zannah's attack will make him react the same."

Zannah used her illusions after Bane stopped pursuing her. As I don't think Dooku would, that's irrelevant. He'd close the distance first. The idea that because Bane stopped attacking, Dooku would doesn't seem right to me.

"Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground."


She would have to split her attention between illusions and shields. Just as with her defense, this shield would be less effective.

I'm not talking about their final duel.

"She was less than a meter away, her blade already slashing in for the killing blow, when she felt all the hair on the back of her neck rise. A shimmering purple cocoon of dark side energy enveloped Bane, a fragile shell holding back a storm of pure power. She tried to pull back but it was too late. As her blade bit into the cocoon the energy was released in a sudden burst that sent both of them flying backward. Bane slammed hard into the wall against his back and crumpled to the ground. Zannah was tossed ten meters farther, landing hard on the
stone floor."



As if you and Ant haven't had debates about Zannah enough for me to read the fight several times over.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No issues at all? Really? The entire duel talks about Zannah being surprised by Banes speed, or how she "somehow" deflected his his blows. She didn't die, sure, but to say she had no issues is an exaggeration.

So is saying she had trouble with his speed. She was surprised because he'd held back and was faster than she'd seen him as previously. And she only said she'd somehow managed to survive his initial onslaught when she tired to take him on with conventional swordplay, instead of her trademark defense. She was able to block all of his attacks even when on the ground, with broken ribs and recovering from that assualt. If she is slower than him, it obviously isn't to that great an extent, else she couldn't have managed to successfully defend against him in those conditions.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In sabers? Probably not. I know the meaning of the word "impenetrable." But the fact is Zannah would probably have to keep the utmost concentration when blocking every attack from Dooku. That's a struggle.

Nah. Dooku's offense isn't that great.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I agree, Bane's stronger than Dooku. I do not think he's faster or more powerful.

Well I don't particularly want to start up the speed debate. But his feats sure do indicate he is. Moving fast enough to appear to wield a dozen lightsabers to a powerful Sith is massively impressive and he's even faster in DoE.

As to power, Bane's power was "near infinite". excellent

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It says she was being being driven to give ground. I don't know what that means to you, but that doesn't sound like something she did of choice. At that point, Zannah used that fact to her advantage, but it was not something she wanted to do before.

Zannah is a defensive fighter. When defending you need to give ground even if you're not being pressed. The text specifically notes Zannah continuing to retreat to maintain a safe distance while only having to deal with some token strikes. Heck, Dooku gives ground in all his fights with Anakin, does that mean he's always losing?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
When has Dooku not closed the distance before? Just because he's calm and collected, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't pursue and opponent.

Well these the AotC fights where Obi-Wan and Anakin both put space between them during the fight and he leisurely strolls up to them. Or in the CW movie when he force pwns Anakin and taunts him instead of continuing the attack. Or in that duel where Anakin chokes him, he pushes Anakin back with the force and then lets him recover instead of attacking twice.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"I'm not making the argument that because Talzin caused him pain Zannah will. But both cause pain, so Zannah's attack will make him react the same."

Whats so wrong with that? Zannah's spell causing pain isn't reliant on Talzin's spell causing him pain. I'm only using Talzin's attack as an indication of how he'll react to the pain Zannah's spell is known to cause.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah used her illusions after Bane stopped pursuing her. As I don't think Dooku would, that's irrelevant. He'd close the distance first. The idea that because Bane stopped attacking, Dooku would doesn't seem right to me.

Bane is a much more aggressive duelist than Dooku, and Zannah was wounded at the time. Why would Dooku pursue a healthy Zannah when a more aggressive fighter didn't pursue a wounded Zannah?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground."

Lol. I thought you meant something else. That's not his actual attacks it's his tactics, she was still able to block everything fine. Bane changing his tactics at random moments doesn't have anything to do with precognition. Besides, Bane had developed a specifically unpredictable, random style. Dooku's isn't unpredictable, it's archaic Makashi.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She would have to split her attention between illusions and shields. Just as with her defense, this shield would be less effective.

Except she's not actually using her illusions at the time, so she doesn't need to split her attention between defending from TK and using them. She even states in the text that she can just switch to totally focusing on defense if Bane had started to seriously press her.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not talking about their final duel.

"She was less than a meter away, her blade already slashing in for the killing blow, when she felt all the hair on the back of her neck rise. A shimmering purple cocoon of dark side energy enveloped Bane, a fragile shell holding back a storm of pure power. She tried to pull back but it was too late. As her blade bit into the cocoon the energy was released in a sudden burst that sent both of them flying backward. Bane slammed hard into the wall against his back and crumpled to the ground. Zannah was tossed ten meters farther, landing hard on the
stone floor."

That's not an attack, it was a desperation move from Bane to prevent himself from dying. Bane was attacking her with the Force in the whole fight, which she casually dealt with or dodged. So don't try to use that as proof that Dooku can take her off guard with a basic force push.

Freshest continues to win. Neph is losing in every point.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Freshest continues to win. Neph is losing in every point.

Ant, you're on carthage's side here. And that's terrible.

Come back to the Light. We can help you!

Me, Tempest, Carthage, Freshest, and NewGuy vs you.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Me, Tempest, Carthage, Freshest, and NewGuy vs you.

Every time someone agrees with carthage a baby unicorn cries.

http://taleoftwowastelands.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-87-1378872147.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Every time someone agrees with carthage a baby unicorn cries.

This is actually true.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
snip

Posting offensive or gory images is against the rrrrrrules, Ant. Reported.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Freshest continues to win. Neph is losing in every point.

http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/you-were-the-chosen-one.jpg

It was said you would destroy the trolls not join them.

All joking aside. Dooku doesn't really have any mental resistance feats of note - or at all for that matter. He could fall prey to her mental assault. Dueling wise, I'm going with Dooku but it's not by a large margin. Just my opinion.

unless Dooku has a mental feat that we're not aware of, i think Zannah can take this.



Nephthys is supported by me and Emperordmb to a certain extent i believe.(insert witty remark from a user here)

Also Carthage isn't much of a credible or reliable debater dude. This is the same guy that yells nexus for everything Bane has done and low balls him at every turn. He also thinks that Kolar > Malgus. Saesee Tiin > Kas'im. The list is long dude.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Posting offensive or gory images is against the rrrrrrules, Ant. Reported.

Dew it.

NewGuy>You.
Tempest>Dmb.
Freshest>Neph.
Me>Humanity.

Dude, I actually ****ing reported you. That shit isn't funny or cool.

The "gore" was that of paint, not real blood. It didn't break any rules, and only offended Bronies. It's considered art. Is horror now banned from these boards?

Wow.

Hey, you ever think you get into so many fights with people because you're a ****ing *******?

I didn't break any rules. Otherwise, stuff like "Death Troopers" wouldn't be allowed to be discussed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
NewGuy>You.
Tempest>Dmb.
Freshest>Neph.
Me>Humanity.

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/04/Good-Job-GIF.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow.

Hey, you ever think you get into so many fights with people because you're a ****ing *******?

Lol, don't bother yourself with that Nephthys.

On a side note, i'm curious to see what the last word was. lol

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/you-were-the-chosen-one.jpg

It was said you would destroy the trolls not join them.


I am not a troll. I am a troll/baiter hybrid. There is a huge difference.

Mental resistance doesn't really help you with Illusions. Strength of will does.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I am not a troll. I am a troll/baiter hybrid. There is a huge difference.

LOL, at least you're honest, in anycase it was a joke. and I wasn't referring to you, Tempest or NewGuy01.http://r28.imgfast.net/users/2811/36/97/52/smiles/2182237274.gif



Alright, call it what you want, mental fortitude etc etc... his strength of will didn't really help him against Talzin's sorcery

lol if someone says "Nexus feat" i will laugh so hard.

Talzin is stronger than Zannah. Talzin also doesn't use Sith Sorcery.

As demonstrated in her battle against Sarro Xaj, intense mental strength is not necessarily a requirement to defeat Zannah--Though it certainly helps.



What's your point?



That's not at all unreasonable, you have a better deck to draw from with him.



Damn straight.



He's aware.



Talzin's powers aren't even related to the mind, so I'm not sure what it has to do with Dooku's mental fortitude.

Zannah wins this.

Bane tried to use a powerful and aggressive style against Zannah first and she had no trouble with it.

Bane then changed to a style that focused on precision and poking through defenses. You know, a style that sounds quite similar to Dooku's. She had no trouble with this either.

Bane finally had to resort to random and unpredictable strikes against Zannah. Zannah did just fine against this until she tripped over a grave.

I don't see Zannah having any trouble defending against Dooku. Zannah was a prodigy with TK, so Dooku isn't going to be ragdolling her. Dooku's lightning is less impressive than Bane's, so that won't help him either.

Dooku's mental resistance/strength of will has been broken by Talzin. I'm not sure if Zannah can replicate this, but Dooku will struggle against her sorcery just like Bane did.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As demonstrated in her battle against Sarro Xaj, intense mental strength is not necessarily a requirement to defeat Zannah--Though it certainly helps.

EDIT: Scratch that. I ****ed up. My bad



What was DarthAnt's? Was pointing out that he was being supported by, You, tempest, Carthage( ) and freshest necessary or in anyway relevant to the debate? The Answer: No. Why not ask you're friend what his point was in saying that instead of me?



You're not seriously suggesting or implying that Saesee is on Kas'im's level are you?



*shrugs*
Not like it's much of a victory, considering my knowledge of SW is limited. Still, far be it from me to stop you, go ahead and gloat/celebrate/whatever.



That's a surprise.



So doesn't this further support the argument that the count has no Mental resistance feats or Anything that shows Mental fortitude?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
But was he being amped with BM wouldn't this greatly increase both his combat performance and his mental fortitude/Mental Resistance.


Zannah was also a young and inexperienced apprentice at this point.

Originally posted by red8
Zannah was also a young and inexperienced apprentice at this point.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llppxbp57K1qi0llto1_400.gif

I can't believe i forgot about that. Thank You red8!

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy

So doesn't this further support the argument that the count has no Mental resistance feats or Anything that shows Mental fortitude?
Seriously: That didn't mean he was unprepared, however. Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will.

It's not like mind domination where being powerful enough repels it. Unless you're going to argue that Dooku somehow lacks will, I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.

He lacks Bane's willpower...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He lacks Bane's willpower...
Go on. This is the Dooku that stood up after being used as a suit and after being ravaged by Talzin's magic. How does he lack Bane's willpower?

Dooku takes it it, albeit it with extreme difficulty.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Go on. This is the Dooku that stood up after being used as a suit and after being ravaged by Talzin's magic. How does he lack Bane's willpower?
Well for starters he was used as a suit by Talzin in the first place...

And Bane's own feats of willpower outstrip that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Seriously: Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will.

It's not like mind domination where being powerful enough repels it. Unless you're going to argue that Dooku somehow lacks will, I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.

Does the count have anything that resembles something as a "Strength of Will" feat? like is there anything that showed he has great Strength of will?

that's a genuine question. I'm curious.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Go on. This is the Dooku that stood up after being used as a suit and after being ravaged by Talzin's magic. How does he lack Bane's willpower?

Dooku was crawling on the ground and struggled to get up and ordered grevious to attack dathomir immediately afterwords and in SOD he was on the ground knocked out. he didn't get up immediately after words.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well for starters he was used as a suit by Talzin in the first place...

And Bane's own feats of willpower outstrip that.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy

Dooku was crawling on the ground and struggled to get up and ordered grevious to attack dathomir immediately afterwords and in SOD he was on the ground knocked out. he didn't get up immediately after words.
Strength of will means that you have the will to do something. That's like saying because someone gets stabbed, they don't have strength of will because they don't bounce back immediately.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well for starters he was used as a suit by Talzin in the first place...

And Bane's own feats of willpower outstrip that.
Bane never encountered anyone comparable to Talzin in sorcery. Considering what she's done with it, and the fact that it has nothing to do with willpower, it;s not surprising Dooku would be overwhelmed by it. I doubt Bane wouldn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Bane never encountered anyone comparable to Talzin in sorcery. Considering what she's done with it, and the fact that it has nothing to do with willpower, it;s not surprising Dooku would be overwhelmed by it. I doubt Bane wouldn't.
It's too bad that Dooku doesn't have any showings of willpower that compare to Bane's...


And I beg to differ. What has Talzin done with mind based sorcery that's any more impressive than Zannah?

He rarely has one.



Absolutely. Prove me wrong.



You don't understand.



Yep.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
It's too bad that Dooku doesn't have any showings of willpower that compare to Bane's...

And why don't they?

Talzin didn't use mind based sorcery at all. She tortured Dooku and took control of his body.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And why don't they?
Because they aren't as impressive, it's as simple as that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice Talzin didn't use mind based sorcery at all. She tortured Dooku and took control of his body.
There's your answer right there.

Regardless, you are suggesting that Talzin's "superiority with sorcery" means something in this context, even though she lacks the feats to compare with Zannah in Zannah's particular area of expertise, the effects of which are being debated here.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He rarely has one.

Unsurprising.



He lacks feats, simple as that. But, this isn't the place for a debate about Tiin > Kas'im. Let's refrain from straying from the the topic at hand.



I couldn't care less, really.



Not sure if serious or....

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Regardless, you are suggesting that Talzin's "superiority with sorcery" means something in this context, even though she lacks the feats to compare with Zannah in Zannah's particular area of expertise, the effects of which are being debated here.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Because they aren't as impressive, it's as simple as that.

No it really isn't. If you can't tell me why something Bane did is more impressive than something Dooku did besides, "Because it is," you're being circular.

Not really. Taking control of someone's body is not the same as taking control of someone's mind. And as only Sith Sorcery has been stated to be defended against by will, not Talzin's, this is irrelevant.

Zannah doesn't have feats that compare with Talzin's sorcery, not the other way around, but that matters none because they don't even practice the same type of sorcery and they aren't related in affect.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No it really isn't. If you can't tell me why something Bane did is more impressive than something Dooku did besides, "Because it is," you're being circular.

Bane walked around in constant agony for 10 years while operating normally, he laughed off Kaan's mental influence (and Kaan was dominating the BoD into following him), he managed to resist Zannahs mental attack that sent lesser minds into coma's instantly and he managed to perform the essence transfer while dealing with pain that utterly eclipsed anything he'd ever felt. I'd say that in terms of will Bane is the best in the mythos, if it wasn't true that Zannah defeated him in a direct contest of wills.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane walked around in constant agony for 10 years while operating normally,

I'm not sure how that proves Bane has more will, just that he has will, but that was never in question.

Resisting someone who can dominate no names into their service doesn't mean anything. Nihilus made people bow at his feet by his mere presence, but I wouldn't say that everyone in KotOR II has more will than Dooku.

But it didn't on anyone notable, and even on Tython, it created the same effect as it did on Bane. Its not like the Bane didn't see the creatures and didn't attack them.

Pain powers Bane's abilities, and many characters in the mythos use pain to become stronger and accomplish more. Zash does the same thing wounded as well, yet her will comes nowhere near close to Bane's.

Sion>

Bane's will is overrated.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not sure how that proves Bane has more will, just that he has will, but that was never in question.

Uh, what? Of course that proves Bane has more will than Dooku. When has Dooku demonstrated that level of mental fortitude? He was writhing around like a b*tch when Talzin caused him pain.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Resisting someone who can dominate no names into their service doesn't mean anything. Nihilus made people bow at his feet by his mere presence, but I wouldn't say that everyone in KotOR II has more will than Dooku.

Lmao, wtf are you smoking? Kaan was dominating the minds of dozens, maybe hundreds of Sith Lords at a time. He had enough influence to pull everyone out of the Force Storm ritual too. And when he tried to influence Bane's mind Bane had to stop himself from laughing at the attempt.

And whats up with that comparison? That doesn't really have any relevance to anything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
But it didn't on anyone notable, and even on Tython, it created the same effect as it did on Bane. Its not like the Bane didn't see the creatures and didn't attack them.

You mean notable like Dooku, who has absolutely **** all in the way of mental resistance or will feats?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Pain powers Bane's abilities, and many characters in the mythos use pain to become stronger and accomplish more. Zash does the same thing wounded as well, yet her will comes nowhere near close to Bane's.

No it doesn't, not always. The pain was so immense that Bane almost went into shock.

"The material of his clothes melted away as if it had been splashed with acid. A chunk of flesh beneath simply dissolved, and Bane screamed in agony.

Once, orbalisks had fused themselves to his body with a burning chemical compound so intense it had nearly driven him mad. Ten years ago they had been removed when Bane's flesh had been literally cooked by a concentrated blast of his own violet lightning. During her interrogation, Serra had pumped him full of a drug that had felt like it was eating him alive from the inside. But the excruciating pain he felt from the mere touch of the dark side tendril was unlike anything Bane had ever experienced before.

The damage was far from life threatening, but it nearly sent Bane into shock. He fell hard to the ground, his jaw slack and his eyes rolling back into his head. His mind was reeling from the brief contact. The pain radiated through every nerve in his body, but what he felt went far beyond any mere physical sensation. It was not the raw heat of the dark side but rather the empty chill of the void itself spreading through him. It touched every synapse in his mind, it clawed at the core of his spirit. In that instant he tasted utter annihilation, and felt the true horror of absolute nothingness.

Somehow he managed to stay conscious, and when the next tentacle coiled in he was able to scramble to his feet and roll out of the way."

Yeah, he really used that to accomplish more.

And all that was just from brushing a tentacle. Before he uses the essence transfer one tentacle dissolves his arm off and he was still able to focus enough to use the ritual.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sion>

Bane's will is overrated.

Meh, maybe.

Riiight, or maybe you're just transparently lowballing. Just face it, Dooku loses.

Bane's will is amongst the strongest, but I'm not sure Id hand him the number one spot.

Yeah, I wouldn't.

Because Zannah > him. excellent

I wouldn't say Zannah's will is better then Bane's, if that's what your saying.

Though, Revan Reborn and Darth Revan also have highly impressive mental resistance feats in the mythos.
One was capable of stalemating Vitiate for 300 years, the other was capable of making himself immune to the affects of Malachor V.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Though, Revan Reborn and Darth Revan also have highly impressive mental resistance feats in the mythos.
One was capable of stalemating Vitiate for 300 years,

While drawing on Meetra's Power for 300 years....

That's feat was only accomplished because he had help from Meetra.

No. Revan drew on Meetra's power to counter the draining, not to battle Vitiate's mental war. The mental war he did alone in his mind.

As far as I know Revan was also weakened by a dark side nexus during those 300 years, but I'm not sure.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Revan drew on Meetra's power to counter the draining, not to battle Vitiate's mental war. The mental war he did alone in his mind.

That's bull and you know it.

"Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."
- Star Wars: Revan

Edit. How about adding that to your respect thread.

He could accomplish the mental feat itself. She allowed Revan to feed off her power because otherwise Revan would grow weak and die from Force Drain.

Originally posted by Nephthys
*snip for how your opinions overrides everything and every quote posted so far*

Even if I wanted to admit Bane is better than Dooku, which I'm not, Zannah isn't on Bane's level, which seems to be what your argument revolves around. Her illusions are the only thing that even let her compete, and even they required a shit ton of time and energy, nexus or otherwise, to use. She barely approaches him in sabers, let alone in the Force, where he's constantly overpowering her.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He could accomplish the mental feat itself. She allowed Revan to feed off her power because otherwise Revan would grow weak and die from Force Drain.

Dude, now you're just ignoring the text, it clearly states she's allowing it for him to continue his fight with the emperor

"Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."

She was helping him to resist the Emperor dude. don't ignore it, not like it makes Revan any less impressive, she just helped him.

No. It has been accepted and believed since the creation of the novel that Meetra aided Revan in the Force Drain part, not the mental war.
You are not understanding the text correctly. Meetra helped Revan "continue his never-ending mental war" by making the Force Drain out of the equation.
Otherwise, Revan would have weakened/died eventually and the Emperor would have won. Meetra allowed Revan to continually be at full/close to full power.

The text clearly says that whenever Revan "grew weak" she allowed him to feed of her, "refreshing and restoring him," not empowering him. Seriously.

It directly says she strengthened his resolve too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It directly says she strengthened his resolve too.
Of course. Revan is being constantly weakened every second by the Emperor's drain. He requires Meetra's strength to keep it at his full power. He was never empowered however.

Yes. When it grew weak. Then he was RESTORED. Unless that word has a different meaning your country, I think it's pretty clear what it means.

Oh, was the Emperor draining his resolve too?

Or was it what the text actually says, that she strengthened his resolve?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, was the Emperor draining his resolve too?

Or was it what the text actually says, that she strengthened his resolve?
The Emperor was draining his power, aka everything about it. His resolve would obviously be decreased as well. Note how Revan never drew on Meetra until he grew "weak."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. It has been accepted and believed since the creation of the novel that Meetra aided Revan in the Force Drain part, not the mental war.
You are not understanding the text correctly. Meetra helped Revan "continue his never-ending mental war" by making the Force Drain out of the equation.
Otherwise, Revan would have weakened/died eventually and the Emperor would have won. Meetra allowed Revan to continually be at full/close to full power.

Yeah, were it not for her, he never would have succeeded in resisting vitiate for as long as he did. ergo, She did in fact help him resist the emperor. He would not have survived for so long without her.

We already know that, but you were implying something different. Glad you concede and agree now though.
You were stating that if Drain was not a factor, Revan would also lose, which is false.
Revan had to draw on Meetra due to the drain, not because he was losing the mental war.

Ant, I'd like to ask you a Revan-centric question.

K?

The prevailing theory is that Revan only attracts fanboys because it enables fat losers with crippling self-esteem issues to live out a grotesque wish fulfillment of a Gary Stu/polymath lifestyle.

What is the source of your particular interest in this 'character'?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What is the source of your particular interest in this 'character'?
His mask is cool.

goddammit

I didn't play the game until way after my fascination with Revan began. I would say most people who like him is because his godly appearance.

No, but for real. Why do you like this guy?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
His mask is cool.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The prevailing theory is that Revan only attracts fanboys because it enables fat losers with crippling self-esteem issues to live out a grotesque wish fulfillment of a Gary Stu/polymath lifestyle.

What is the source of your particular interest in this 'character'?

Revan wasn't even a Gary Stu until Kotor 2 though. Until then he was more "not as shitty a person as Malak." I guess it was a rush to learn you'd been secretly playing as a badass Sith Lord, but eh?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, but for real. Why do you like this guy?
He gives hope to nerds everywhere, that if you remain a virgin until 38, you can still bang someone half your age with shitty one liners and sexual harassment.