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*The Young Jedi fall into a traphole and land in Krayt's temple

Force, sabers, all out

Lightsabers only:

Neither Crado or Tott are likely to last more than the moment they step into lightsaber range. Krayt's demonstrated that he's not a foe where tossing in two moderately skilled warriors does much.

Sylvar and Cay, on the other hand, have some real skill. Between the two of them, they can likely make him at least put some work into it, but I don't think they can handle his strength in the end.


Force only, only Tott Doneeta has shown much force defense, the others are in a bad position. Not as good performance as the dueling section.


All-out, the team's in trouble.

Good to know Krayt's exemption to the Q Doctrine of Numbers Win Fights is still in full effect.

While I agree that Krayt takes this pretty solidly, the guys on team 2 are realistically a good level above the IKs that Krayt tore through. It's made pretty clear that they were all among the most talented Jedi of their generation.

True.

But Reborn Krayt is also a good level above the Krayt that took out those IK's. So a blitz is possible.

I don't disagree that Krayt takes it, I'm just gently ribbing Q for his affection for the heterochromic bastard.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True.

But Reborn Krayt is also a good level above the Krayt that took out those IK's. So a blitz is possible.

It hasn't been established that it was a speed blitz, and armored up Krayt has some advantages over Reborn Krayt that would help with lightsaber combat, so there's a possibility that Reborn Krayt would be less effective in saber combat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Good to know Krayt's exemption to the Q Doctrine of Numbers Win Fights is still in full effect.

Please, numbers *matter* is what I argue. Not that they always win. How strong the numbers are in comparison to each other factor in a lot.

And the numbers definitely do matter here- namely, the numbers named Cay and Sylvar, who are the ones good enough to keep up. It's just that the level of Crado, who's much below Sylvar, and Tott, who's only taken droids and Naddist Cultists (and more of a force-specialist than a blade-specialist), would need more quantity to be telling.



Palpatine'd win too. Caedus. Etc.. But Sylvar and Cay together can definitely make even top tier foes work for it in sabers.




Cay and Sylvar, yes, definitely.

Sylvar was definitely well above her mate, who was completely in awe of Exar's abilities while Sylvar was good enough to cut Exar's face and take on Ulic. Tott too seemed to view Sylvar's skills as clearly above her own.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't disagree that Krayt takes it, I'm just gently ribbing Q for his affection for the heterochromic bastard.

No need to explain yourself to me honey, I understood what you were doing and wholeheartedly support it.

Originally posted by Q99
Please, numbers *matter* is what I argue. Not that they always win. How strong the numbers are in comparison to each other factor in a lot.

And the numbers definitely do matter here- namely, the numbers named Cay and Sylvar, who are the ones good enough to keep up. It's just that the level of Crado, who's much below Sylvar, and Tott, who's only taken droids and Naddist Cultists (and more of a force-specialist than a blade-specialist), would need more quantity to be telling.



Palpatine'd win too. Caedus. Etc.. But Sylvar and Cay together can definitely make even top tier foes work for it in sabers.

Suuuure.

Yea, those 'ribbing' me obviously haven't payed attention how I count numbers in other cases where foes are involved

Originally posted by appletonia
It hasn't been established that it was a speed blitz,

I'm not sure how you could count it as anything but!



Speed shouldn't be one of them. Less weight and more strength in the force, and generally better health, should normally translate into more speed. Plus, hey, gained shatterpoints.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, those 'ribbing' me obviously haven't payed attention how I count numbers in other cases where foes are involved

Nah, you silly goose, those 'ribbing' you just notice certain trends with you: like how Maul and Savage were apparently pressing Sidious in the extreme when the consensus of observers and actual authorities (Filoni?) indicates otherwise but Krayt can moonwalk through half a dozen Force users at any given time.

It's like you like Krayt or something. mmm

Refer to the thread where we were discussing this 99.

Q is a goose??

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you silly goose, those 'ribbing' you just notice certain trends with you: like how Maul and Savage were apparently pressing Sidious in the extreme when the consensus of observers and actual authorities (Filoni?) indicates otherwise but Krayt can moonwalk through half a dozen Force users at any given time.

It's like you like Krayt or something.

One, they weren't pressing Sidious in the extreme, but they were holding their own in the saber portion (and just the saber portion) when working together (and just when working together). Which is very much what the show pictured.

You know, like I'm saying Cay and Sylar will do.

While, meanwhile, less powerful foes can and do just die quick against Sids. You know, like I'm saying Crado and Tott will (and Kolar and Tiin are IMO above Crado and Tott).



It's like you don't even notice I'm rating two things similarly if Krayt happens to be involved in one ^^ Hmmmmmm

Your silence tells me all I need to know, Q.

That goes for you as well my padawan slutty twilek companion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you silly goose, those 'ribbing' you just notice certain trends with you: like how Maul and Savage were apparently pressing Sidious in the extreme when the consensus of observers and actual authorities (Filoni?) indicates otherwise but Krayt can moonwalk through half a dozen Force users at any given time.

It's like you like Krayt or something. mmm

Your presence has been requested in the other thread, Temp.

Originally posted by appletonia
Your silence tells me all I need to know, Q.

I just posed a couple good sized posts in response, I do not think you know what silence is!

I like how you don't actually have a response to 'hey, notice how this is exactly how I rate other characters.'


Hm, more examples. Orbalisk Bane's another who'd rapid reduce it to two foes.


If Krayt fought the quartet that Sidious did in the office, he likely wouldn't be able to blitz Tiin and Kolar *quite* as well, but he could likely take them down pretty fast like he did Morghan, but that'd give Fisto and Windu more time to act, and they'd be in better position to support each other. Fisto'd still likely go down, but last several times longer, and thus he'd be more tired when it came to him vs Windu, so the outcome there would be more clear...

Originally posted by Q99
One, they weren't pressing Sidious in the extreme, but they were holding their own in the saber portion (and just the saber portion) when working together (and just when working together). Which is very much what the show pictured.

You know, like I'm saying Cay and Sylar will do.

While, meanwhile, less powerful foes can and do just die quick against Sids. You know, like I'm saying Crado and Tott will (and Kolar and Tiin are IMO above Crado and Tott).



It's like you don't even notice I'm rating two things similarly if Krayt happens to be involved in one ^^ Hmmmmmm

Suuuuure

Just noticing the trend with you, bro. Not judging. Just observing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Suuuuure

Just noticing the trend with you, bro. Not judging. Just observing.

I tend to speak up with Krayt... but then again, I do so in other cases as well.


I'm noticing a trend that people tend to overlook that I make similar arguments on people from lots of eras, and act like I do it only in one. 'Not judging, just observing,'

I wonder if he could blitz Kolar.

Originally posted by appletonia
Refer to the thread where we were discussing this 99.

I was referring to this Q.

Originally posted by Q99
I tend to speak up with Krayt... but then again, I do so in other cases as well.


I'm noticing a trend that people tend to overlook that I make similar arguments on people from lots of eras, and act like I do it only in one. 'Not judging, just observing,'

Speaking up for Krayt isn't a problem, brohan. It's just funny how numbers tend to be of negligible import when Krayt or another Legacy involved. Like, Krayt can moonwalk through Force users of any number, but a Sith Lord who is stronger, smarter, more powerful, more skilled, more knowledgeable, more successful, more important, and just plain ol' better than Krayt in all ways including (I'm told) sexual technique and experience {I am referring, of course, to Palpatine, from whose shadow Krayt shall never escape does this bother you?} is pushed to the brink by two. Your approach is kinda goofy, that's all.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm noticing a trend that people tend to overlook that I make similar arguments on people from lots of eras, and act like I do it only in one. 'Not judging, just observing,'

Only dicks do that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Speaking up for Krayt isn't a problem, brohan. It's just funny how numbers tend to be of negligible import when Krayt or another Legacy involved. Like, Krayt can moonwalk through Force users of any number, but a Sith Lord who is stronger, smarter, more powerful, more skilled, more knowledgeable, more successful, more important, and just plain ol' better than Krayt in all ways including (I'm told) sexual technique and experience {I am referring, of course, to Palpatine, from whose shadow Krayt shall never escape does this bother you?} is pushed to the brink by two. Your approach is kinda goofy, that's all.

TBF, Maul and Savage are twice as dangerous as this team with half the numbers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TBF, Maul and Savage are twice as dangerous as this team with half the numbers.

Let's see what Q has to say about that. Also, a moment of silence is in order to ruminate over how breathtakingly gay is the name 'Savage Opress'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TBF, Maul and Savage are twice as dangerous as this team with half the numbers.

Nah the teams are about even.

These guys are pretty unproven in terms of ability, bro.

Yeah but they still outnumber them 2 to 1. I'd say 4 nameless extremely high level Jedi Knights would probably be equal to Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by appletonia
I was referring to this Q.


Ah yes, 'the' thread where 'we' are discussing 'this'. How very specific and helpful. Considering this is the thread on the front page where we're discussing Krayt and numbers, I'm not sure what you're talking about.



Except, as mentioned, I am also quite consistent on having the quality of said numbers also matter, as do how many numbers. Numbers always factor in, but how much depends on both sides.


There are people, high sith and such, against who one or two minor people don't add much because they have *demonstrably* killed even master level people really really fast. Krayt has had two masters come at his back and kill them without looking, so, yea, you need more than two random masters to serve as a proper aid.

And then I gave you, what, four examples of other sith who could do that in the thread? So it's not like this is a legacy only thing. Like I said, you're only complaining about it when it crossover over Legacy, not when I do it for every era, like I do.


Also this is largely dealing with the top legacy people, Krayt and Cade and Wyyrlok are not average, they're the best of their time, and what best-of-their-time do not require more numbers to put down than normal? Put Wolf Sazen or Treis Sinde against two fighters like this, and the minor ones can't be cut down so fast and will certainly matter more.

One of the thing I do is explain my reasoning and when I say why I think a fight pans out a certain way, I often provide examples of similar fights where things did pan out that way in-universe. This is not stuff that applies to just any one era.




Originally posted by Nephthys
TBF, Maul and Savage are twice as dangerous as this team with half the numbers.

I disagree, Cay was only a bit behind his brother with a saber, and Ulic was a very very very good duelist. And Sylvar, as mentioned, is one of the few actually able to wound Exar.



Hm, though while this squad would give the bros a fight, the minor ones could at least contribute some when the gap isn't that bad, there is a point that the two weaker ones here just die too fast against a high sith lord. Maul and Opress are definitely a better challenge than just Sylvar and Cay (for one obvious thing, they have strong force as well while those two are saber-only), which this fight will rapidly be. I wouldn't say *twice* as dangerous but... one point five times as dangerous?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
including (I'm told) sexual technique and experience

Originally posted by appletonia
Yeah but they still outnumber them 2 to 1. I'd say 4 nameless extremely high level Jedi Knights would probably be equal to Maul and Savage.


Two high level Jedi Knights. The other two aren't as impressive.


If you had, say, two Sylvars and two Cays, I'd say they'd have a very good chance of winning in sabers (though would be lacking in force, so that's a vulnerability, but in sabers only they'd have the edge).

Originally posted by Q99
Ah yes, 'the' thread where 'we' are discussing 'this'. How very specific and helpful. Considering this is the thread on the front page where we're discussing Krayt and numbers, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Hehe you know exactly what I'm talking about. The thread where you posted the scan, is that more helpful?

Originally posted by Q99
Two high level Jedi Knights. The other two aren't as impressive.

It's heavily indicated that they were all extremely talented Jedi Knights. They were routinely hand picked for the most important missions, passed on to the most renowned masters for training, and the ones that turned to the darkside were some of Exar's top enforcers. Alltogether it paints a picture of them being very talented, high level Knights.

Actually, I totally misspoke Nephthys. Sylvar and Cay alone probably aren't too far off from the duo if at all; add in Crado and Doneeta and this foursome are solidly above the duo.

Originally posted by Q99
I disagree, Cay was only a bit behind his brother with a saber, and Ulic was a very very very good duelist. And Sylvar, as mentioned, is one of the few actually able to wound Exar.

Proof that Cay was near Ulic? Sylvar wounding apprentice Kun proves she's pretty powerful. But not Maul or Savage powerful or in their weight class.

Originally posted by appletonia
Hehe you know exactly what I'm talking about. The thread where you posted the scan, is that more helpful?


Actually, no, I post scans in lots of threads, and there's still no active thread matching your description, nor does 'I posted scans in it' say anything about what you're trying to say here.


Look, I take it that you don't actually have anything here on this bit? Just vaguely hinting at my arguments without anything solid?

I've provided arguments in this thread, this one right hear. Plenty of examples of what I think and my views. If you're trying to say I think something other than what I've said here, then, well, you're off, plain and simple.




It was extremely obviously that Crado was a shadow of his mate's skill, at best.


Of Vodo's students, it went Exar > Sylvar >> Crado.

And Doneeta simply hasn't shown that much with a blade, and my impression was *his* impression was that Sylvar was a good deal stronger than him.


People can be noteworthy and generally solid without being at a level where they're much use against a high level sith lord. Only two of these four are really renowned *duelists*.








When they dueled it was a fight.




The big difference being in force. The two from the Tales era are strong duelists, but they don't have Maul or Savage's strength in the force.

I'd say Sylvar's stronger than, say, Adi Galli, for example.

Originally posted by Q99
When they dueled it was a fight.

Ahsoka vs GG was a fight too. I don't think Ulic was going all out.

Originally posted by Q99
The big difference being in force. The two from the Tales era are strong duelists, but they don't have Maul or Savage's strength in the force.

I'd say Sylvar's stronger than, say, Adi Galli, for example.

Hmm. I guess. With that feat of creating shockwaves heard for kilometers, its likely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ahsoka vs GG was a fight too. I don't think Ulic was going all out.


Ulic did end up killing him.

And iirc under Arca, their master did give both brothers props. Both of them seemed to be at the top of the crop of Jedi students.

Originally posted by Q99
Actually, no, I post scans in lots of threads, and there's still no active thread matching your description, nor does 'I posted scans in it' say anything about what you're trying to say here.

You post the scan of Krayt's fight with the IKs in a lot of threads recently?

I might as well post the link if you're going to be so dishonest about the whole thing: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14881460&highlight=userid%3A147436#post14881460



The difference was certainly bigger between Exar and Sylvar than it was Sylvar and Crado, and I agree that Sylvar was clearly established to be superior to Crado, but that doesn't mean that she was completely out of his league.



Sure but I would maintain that the IKs were not on the level of any of the Jedi on team 2, and by extension that Krayt has not shown that he can completely tear through guys on this level, let alone an arguably inferior version when it comes to ligthsaber combat.

Originally posted by appletonia


You post the scan of Krayt's fight with the IKs in a lot of threads recently?

I might as well post the link if you're going to be so dishonest about the whole thing: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14881460&highlight=userid%3A147436#post14881460


One, yes, I've done it in several threads, it comes up fairly often. Two, you didn't specify which scans, which widens the array of threads. Three, you failed to say why it's relevant- and even with the link it's not really clear the point you're trying to make.


Communicating badly on your part is not dishonesty on my part.

Here's a tip: Instead of trying to imply things about me, say what you mean.





Eh, Sylvar didn't have too much problem with Crado when they clashed.

To put it one way, Exar's a bit above council level. Sylvar's mid council or so.

Crado's high master, a useful pawn, reasonably skilled, but one of his primary uses was his blind loyalty, and not shown to council level.

Tott, may be low council level, but he's also primarily a forcer and didn't get in any real duels, just beat some non-force using foes and no-one emphasized his dueling skills either.




It's established that Imperial Knights don't *use* chumps, and Morghan Fel is of the Fel family and a personal bodyguard. These were people where it was viewed as possible that they might've fought their way out of the entire room full of sith.

And even their leader is disarmed in the first shot.




An unarmored, stronger-in-the-force version *with* shatterpoints and not sick.

You can argue maybe less muscle (but it's not like they're different arms, so not likely), and certainly less armor so hits'll do more (not that he was the 'take shots to make shots' type to begin with, I think Abeloth was the only one to score melee hits on him during his armored time), but being stronger in the force itself helps in saber combat, before getting into the bonus that is shatterpoints.

Plus, now he can use Dark Transfer with grabs and the like.


So while you could arguably say he's weaker in melee, there's also a solid argument that he's stronger, and even if one views him as weaker in melee due to losing the armor, it's purely a defense decrease, his speed should be the same or higher, and his ability to hit will have gone up thanks to gaining shatterpoint.


And hey, Exar could tear through Crado and Tott fairly easily himself.

Originally posted by Q99


One, yes, I've done it in several threads, it comes up fairly often.

More than once in the last month?



Didn't think I needed to...



I'd say it was fairly obvious seeing as I quite clearly established that it's pretty unclear that it was a speed feat at all in that thread, and that was what was being disputed in this thread.



Sure.



Spell things out for you in the future, got it.



Not sure I agree with using "council level" as some kind of measuring stick for their prowess, especially when it seems being placed on the council isn't directly attributed to prowess in battle or strength with the Force. And I don't think you've provided a particularly good case for the Jedi meeting your arbitrary labels for them.



It's all relative; they were a huge organisation and a large number of their ranks, by definition, will be largely unspectacular. Are we given the impression that they assigned their best members to tasks such as acting as the Emperor's personal bodyguards? Isn't this (personal bodyguard of important figure) often a task for non-Force Sensitives even?

The Jedi in the second team are given the same treatment the most talented and powerful Jedi at the time were given.



Proof that his sickness directly affected him in combat (beyond being the reason behind his power decrease, if it partially did that)?

Proof that he only gained shatterpoint afterwards?



You seem to be understating the advantage that having lightsaber resistant armor provides, and are we given any indication about the manner in which he fought in lightsaber combat in the first, besides the few scans we're shown? Seems you're being a bit presumptious in claiming that he wouldn't have fought in that manner with the armor.



Obviously a very risky move in saber combat.



Which can translate into an offence decrease as I explained in the other thread.



Sure but you can't prove that he took the IKs down via a speed blitz as you would like to claim.



Sure it wasn't just Dark Transfer?

Q99 is crushing appletonia.

Originally posted by appletonia
More than once in the last month?

Quite possibly? I'm really not sure.

Dancing around conversations instead of actually saying what you mean to say always leaves room for other people not reading your mind.



Oh, but that's a bollocks argument.

The attackers are literally dying in the same attack motion. While comic speed can be hard to precisely judge, when it's all drawn as part of the same motion.

In *both* versions of the event!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081006014414/starwars/images/9/9f/Imperial_Knights_Slained.JPG

(This one seems to imply that three of the knights have been struck down while Mohgran is giving the call to attack)


In the other thread, you didn't establish that it's a 'pretty unclear speed feat,' you questioned it, but questioning is not establishing, and the data's about as clear as a comic can get. When someone's drawn cutting down three people in one motion... then, yea, things are happening fast.


So, no wonder I didn't know what you were talking about.




Would you? Good communication is appreciated




It's not a universal by any means, but I use it as a descriptor because most of the *combat* focused members usually fall into that band.






They have no more than 60 members at a time, sometimes as low as 12, and are specifically promoted only when they reach a certain level of mastery.

We have seen two newbie members, Marasiah Fel and Jao Assim, perform at Master level. Azlyn Rae, a full Jedi, underwent additional training before she became one.


They do have trainees that are unspectacular, to be sure, we see a big group of them used in a mission (note there: trainees are considered fully combat capable. They're basically the equivalent of padawan), but you are not called an Imperial Knight until you've reached that level of power.



The Imperial Knights are the Emperor's guard and representatives, personal agents of his will. As well, this batch specifically was his personal guard lead by his cousin, chief of his bodyguards.





Considering the Emperor is a powerful master himself and those most likely to actually stand a chance at assassinating him are sith lords, and this group specifically went in with the hopes of turning the trap on the Sith and taking down a number of sith and then maybe escaping?

No, not really.





After that killing of knights? He needed to sit down for awhile.

I mean, how much seems to vary, it didn't bother him too much during Vector and that was an extended combat, but fighting the implants is clearly a tiring thing.





"You see them, don't you Skywalker -- red lines of fire -- the shatterpoints of your own tenuous existence. I needed to experience death to understand how you did it..." -Darth Krayt, in the process of killing Cade with dark transfer.




Oh, I won't deny that, you can argue that that advantage cancels out the rest and you'd have a solid argument.

It, however, doesn't make him any faster.

He will still be physically capable of swinging the blade at equal or higher speed when he is reborn and his force ability is greater.




Three battles, the third one an extended battle against multiple foes.

At the least, it didn't come up often enough to appear in those.


It seems you're a bit presumptious in assuming he does normally fight in a way that we haven't seen. I'm sure he can, and maybe in some circumstances does, but at the least he has not chose to in the battles we've seen.




Not really, once he starts the target's pretty much helpless.

And he's good at melee combat, got a couple good smacks in against Kenobi in his youth.




You can provide no evidence indicating that's the case, and the visuals indicate otherwise.

If one side has evidence and visuals, and the other side merely has doubting those visuals, the former fairly well wins the argument unless and until the other side can provide actual counter-evidence, not simply doubt.




Shatterpoint is a prerequisite of dark transfer. Dark transfer doesn't aid in hitting, but shatterpoint does.

Originally posted by Q99
Quite possibly? I'm really not sure.

Dancing around conversations instead of actually saying what you mean to say always leaves room for other people not reading your mind.

Seems you're basically quite forgetful.

I will remember this for the future and not make references to pertinent threads that occurred practically a week ago.



Well okay, now that you provided the other scan (something I asked for in the other thread if you recall) it does seem to make your interpretation of him taking down all three at once seem far more likely. So good job, however you can hardly blame me for going off of the one scan I was presented with.

That being said, to quote myself from the other thread:

"Even if that was your interpretation, it doesn't mean he neccessarily blitzed them. The Knights may have landed hits on his back, in which case they would have been ineffectual and left the knights open to a swift counterattack. He may have just tore through their defences with sheer strength. He may have landed a few very well placed or timed shots, or there may have even been very brief exchanges. Or he may have even overwhelmed them with speed, but that doesn't necessarily entail blitz worthy speed."



It was clearly established whether you want to believe it or not. I pointed out that it was still very ambiguous exactly how he pulled off the feat, and by extension you cannot claim that it was definitely a speed feat (or a blitz). You have absoltuely no argument if you wish to claim that the panel adequately establishes that he achieved the feat through sheer speed.



Which is still inadequate.



That he cut them down all simultaneously does not mean he did so in a manner that entailed superior speed.



Either way you haven't really made a good case for the Jedi being in any way unextraordinary. Some of them may have been lacking in feats but every indicator we have is that they were valued as some of the most promising Jedi Knights of the era.



I never claimed that they were terrible, I'm sure they were easily master level, but the fact remains that even if there were only 40 IKs, and these IKs were simply average among that group, in a Galaxy where you have the most powerful Force Sensitive individuals being sought out by the Jedi (and Sith?) as well (who presumably were much more adept at finding powerful Force Sensitive individuals) this doesn't paint a picture of them necessarily standing out in the grand scheme of things. You also have to consider that however well trained these IKs were, they were a relatively new organisation; what access to Jedi teachings did they have? How can we be sure IK philosophy and methodology would have produced the best combatants?

((that Azlyn Rae went through additional training to become an IK doesn't necessarily mean that the training was more advanced, but simply different.))

Didn't they also only consider recruiting Force Sensitives that displayed loyalty to the Empire in the first place? I can't imagine they would have had the most deep talent pool compared to the Jedi.

You haven't established that the IKs that would be tasked with protecting the Emperor would have necessarily had to have been stand out IKs; perhaps they were just the standard IKs, and they were deemed adequate to the task, along with all the other layers of security in place? Being a personal bodyguard ties an individual up when they could be used for other missions; how can you be so sure that the stand out IKs weren't deployed on more dynamic missions?

At the end of the day you have no precedent that suggests that these IKs were treated as being in any way special in the grand scheme of the things, whereas with the Jedi Knights in team 2 we have (given the exact same treatment as Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Ulic Qel-Droma), which is what this ultimately boils down to.



You'll need more than the fact that he was his cousin to establish they stood out in any real way.

Question: how many people have we seen Krayt go up against that he didn't just tear through? Just Cade and Wyyrlock? Who have we seen go up against them etc? Anything that would lead us to believe that there was anyone in that era who wasn't completely elite but still wouldn't be fodder to Krayt?



Did they even consider the Sith a credible threat at the time?



Ah, I see, they hoped they would be able to. I guess that proves everything.



That still doesn't establish that it would have slowed him down in combat, but rather that he just felt the effects of it moreso afterwards.



In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu notes that practically any Jedi can see shatterpoints, and what made him special was the ease at which they came to him. What Krayt is describing is something he was only able to learn at all after being able to experience death.

By the sounds of things, this ability, what Cade and Krayt can do, is something else entirely: either these different kinds of shatterpoints that deal specifically with life and death (would make sense that he would then be able to see them after crossing the threshhold of life and death) or the Dark Transfer technique specifically. You're clearly reaching in claiming that this would have functioned in the same way to Mace Windu's talent in lightsaber combat.

When Cade first talks about this ability, doesn't he make it very clear that it is specifically a life/death thing that he sees?



Doesn't matter; you cannot prove that taking down the IKs was entirely a feat of speed, and that the armor didn't factor in at all.



I'd hardly say I was being presumptious in expecting Krayt to make a sound tactical decision. It makes no sense to assume that he wouldn't take advantage of something as useful as lightsaber resistant armor or that it wouldn't shape the manner in which he fought.



Has to be able to touch them first, which is a great way to get your hand sliced off.



The visuals, now that you've provided both scans, indicate that he took them down simultaneously. They don't particularly suggest whether it was or wasn't achieved through superior speed either way.

That's not how the burden of proof works. You are the one wishing to make a definitive interpretation from the comic and to that end it's your responsibility to be able to prove it. My claim is that it's inconclusive, and to that end all I need to do is cast doubt.



Alright but that doesn't answer my question. Was it both that he later learned, or just Dark Transfer?

Q, according to the wookieepedia page, there was a difference between regular IKs and Master IKs?? And it seems that becoming the Emperor's bodyguard was standard practice for an IK that had passed their trials.

Where is it stated they never had any more than 60 IKs at a time?

Is there anything that indicates these Iks were in any way spectacular?

I acknowledge that it's an impressive feat, but you seem to be trying to turn it into something more than it should be, which is a very good feat against fodder opponents.

So as I'm beginning to understand it, the IKs were a very young order with relatively undeveloped methods of training and a somewhat crude philosophy (was clearly not derived from an understanding of the Force but as a function of the Empire), that only recruited individuals that were loyal to the Empire (did they even recruit children?) in a Galaxy where the Jedi Knights searched endlessly for the most powerful and most numerous potent Force Sensitives using methods they'd refined over thousands of years (and the Sith as well?).

I wouldn't be particularly shocked if the IKs were the very weakest order of Force Sensitives we've ever come across to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia.

You can make references, but in those cases, you need to actually make the reference. Remember, you didn't even make the reference to what you were talking about. You vague hinted at 'the other thread,' which literally covers every other thread in the forum.


Posted by appletonia
So as I'm beginning to understand it, the IKs were a very young order with relatively undeveloped methods of training and a somewhat crude philosophy (was clearly not derived from an understanding of the Force but as a function of the Empire),


They were an order that'd been around generations at that point and had a good portion of Jedi defectors. Their founder was Jaina Solo.

They had a loyalty to the Emperor but aside from that their training was based on the Jedi ways and was by no means immature.

You can't make up stuff about an order to downplay it.




That 'only' makes up a noticeable percent of the galactic population ^^

We don't know at what time recruiting started.





We've seen repeatedly them stand alongside and against highly trained Jedi and Sith masters.

They're a small order, but as I said, every member is held to a high standard before they get the job.

Frankly they'd slaughter many of the smaller orders we've seen.





There's a minor difference between those who're senior Knights, 'masters,' and the rest, but it's not a big one.

Even ones not given the title have shown to perform on Jedi Master level.

Jao Assim helped push over a several-hundred-foot dish with a force push and he's a junior member.




The legacy campaign guide, and also the entire order is deployed at the end of Legacy II against a small army of sith.





By Imperial Knight standards? Perhaps not, but again, Imperial Knights must be at what we'd call Jedi Master level before they even get the title, and they're all combat focused. And that's just for three of the four.

The three who came at Krayt from the sides and behind were trusted enough to do the job- and again, there was hope they'd be able to fight their way through a room of ranking sith, so they were certainly trusted to be solid in combat.

Their leader, Mohgran, was a Fel, the family line is known for it's high force potential. He had ancestors named 'Luke' and 'Anakin' and he was given a special job among the Imperial Knights.




The point is that Imperial Knights are all master level- They are never treated as fodder in any other circumstance, it takes someone of Krayt's level to brush them aside.





The one scan you were presented with also showed three of them being cut down in one motion.

So I can blame you, if you have one scan and it contradicts your conclusion, then that's a problem on your end.

Requiring two in order to admit you're off when even the first one (which is simply a more detailed version of this one) disagrees with you is bad work.



Your argument is three people dying in a single set of attacks that takes less time than a sentence and where the people were clearly unable to block the first attacks isn't a speed thing.

Wherein, in *both* scans, the motions of Krayt's lightsabers and body is obviously depicted.


Your conclusion didn't appear to be based on any evidence whatsoever.



Insisting something is inadequate by ignoring presented data is simply not a good argument.



So you are suggesting that cutting down three Master level combatants in one moment is something done slowly? That is just ridiculous.




It paints them as small but elite. Considering we're talking individual quality that's what's relevant to the question at hand.





One, Jaina Solo Fel. Kinda a big Jedi name. Had access to the best Jedi teachings. Again, a recent Jedi Recruit, Azlyn Rae, even though her Jedi training was complete got additional training on top of that when joining them.


Two, we've seen their combatants in action. Antares Draco leaves piles of Sith bodies in his wake and clashes with the Sith Hands, members of Krayt's Inner Circle, and Ganner Krieg does as well. Jao Assim has huge force feats and solid saber work and he's a junior method. Treis Sinde, Azlyn Rae... basically they're demonstrated to be strong combatants.

The main IKnights in Legacy show themselves to be strong combatants on screen.





He's also fought Abeloth, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and Aurra Sing as well. Though he was weaker in those days.


Even the first time he fought Cade, he flat-out overpowered him and drove him to his knees quickly, so if one isn't completely elite, they are pretty much dead.




They considered them a massive threat and this a possible suicide mission, where there was merely a *chance* at any of them escaping. The Jedi Temple had just been crushed by the Sith.

They were in fact guarding a decoy Emperor, because their job was to buy the Emperor time to get away.





Oh, they can do shatterpoints on any wounds, inanimate objects, etc..

They can see it at an extent to see life and death, but it's clearly the same general ability as Mace.


Mind you, simply greatly increasing someone's ability to see shatterpoints will still make them a more effective combatant in general.




Why would armor grant speed to begin with?


I'm noticing a common thread in your arguments: You express doubt at something, and believe that stands in for proof.

You need to support your arguments with evidence. Merely doubt itself says nothing, if there is nothing supporting the doubt, then your argument is hollow.


We have no evidence supporting your doubt. We do have reason to believe otherwise, factors that we know increase abilities that are present without the armor.





It could be he would, but most of the time it doesn't come up, and it still wouldn't increase speed.

Q99 is horrible at noticing when people troll him lmfao

Originally posted by Q99
You can make references, but in those cases, you need to actually make the reference. Remember, you didn't even make the reference to what you were talking about. You vague hinted at 'the other thread,' which literally covers every other thread in the forum.

An explanation for how it qualifies as a hint but not a reference, please.

You being incredibly forgetful isn't a reason for me to stop making casual references to things when 99% of the time people understand exactly what I'm saying.

It's not my exact words that are important here but the context in which they were stated. We were disagreeing about something very specific that we had been having a discussion on in another thread barely a week before. I'm always going to assume that anybody I've engaged in a debate with will have the most basic recollection of our prior interactions.



A few generations is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things when we're dealing with thousand year old organisations.



Jaina Solo was neither a great scholar nor a great weapons master, and the other Jedi defectors seem to be completely unextraordinary. Based on the evidence you've given, it doesn't appear to have a great lineage from the Jedi Order at all.



Their philosophy regarding the Force was extremely immature in the sense that it wasn't shaped by spiritual ideals but political ones.

You can't really say that they were exactly like the Jedi except for their loyalty to the Empire as if that's a tiny difference when it completely shaped their philosophy from the ground up.



The point is that it's an additional limitation on who they could recruit that other Orders don't possess. Fewer recruits = thinner talent pool.



1. You can forgive me if I don't take you at your word at this point, given you flat out stated that simply being promoted to a Knight was the highest rank you could receive in the Order.

2. Clearly if the IKs that Krayt slaughtered didn't even possess the highest rank in the Order, and their role in protecting the Emperor, as described on the wookiepedia page, was completely standard for any fully trained IK, then we have no reason to believe these IKs were at all notable.



To what extent did he provide assistance in this?



Could I get a quote?



You seem to place a rather large amount of faith in what they were trusted, or hoped to do (which IIRC was to simply slow them down, and I don't believe they knew how many Sith were coming).

That they were descended from the Skywalkers is speculation, and having a Skywalker basically act as fodder to the main villain of the story is hardly consistent with the spirit of the franchise. "Hey guys, we're going to make a real big deal about this guy being one of the last remaining Skywalkers and one of the Jedi's last remaining hopes. Here's his dad, who dies in a blaze of glory and who's death povides a huge turning point for the story. Here's another Skywalker, but we're going to make him nameless and have him mercilessly slaughtered and make his death practically meaningless." Are you sure nothing about that sounds not quite right?

Not to mention that clearly the manner in which Force potential passes on from one generation to the next is extremely unpredictable.



The point, which you completely missed, is that having two scans depict the same thing lends credence to a more literal interpretation of the artwork. Having just one scan instead completely changes that.



Something happening quickly =/= something achieved through superior speed.

You seem to be making a basic equivocational error here. The battle itself could have been quick without the action being quick. Cutting down 4 IKs in a few seconds is certainly indicative of a quick battle. But making, say, a dozen strikes in a few second, absolutely isn't indicative of quick combat speed (by Force user standards that's pretty tame). Yet the former can absolutely be achieved by the latter.

How about reading this again and maybe addressing it this time:

"Even if that was your interpretation, it doesn't mean he neccessarily blitzed them. The Knights may have landed hits on his back, in which case they would have been ineffectual and left the knights open to a swift counterattack. He may have just tore through their defences with sheer strength. He may have landed a few very well placed or timed shots, or there may have even been very brief exchanges. Or he may have even overwhelmed them with speed, but that doesn't necessarily entail blitz worthy speed."



The point is that it makes for a more shallow talent pool, which will reduce the number of their ranks at every level and make for a less competetive environment.



Was she allowed to just hand over Jedi artifacts and such, or could she only spread the Jedi's teachings by personally introducing that knowledge to the Order? Because big name or not, she was neither portrayed as a great scholar or a great weapons master.



Again:

((that Azlyn Rae went through additional training to become an IK doesn't necessarily mean that the training was more advanced, but simply different.))

You seem to be trying this tactic where you ignore the counters I make to your points and then just repeat them constantly.



Are these standard members or stand out members? I like that you try and judge the entire Order by the feats of some of the Order's best, yet you won't extend that same courtesy to, say, the BoD and it having members such as Bane, Kas'im and Kaox Krul.



But did they have the time and opportunity to gather some of their best numbers onto the job? This all ultimately boils down to the fact that you really can't prove that these IKs were in any way notable. The Jedi in team 2 very clearly are. Based on all available evidece, Krayt isn't just tearing through any of them.



You're not really addressing my argument at all at this moment.



Did I said it would? I'm arguing that he didn't necessarily achieve the feat through superior speed at all.

Again:

"That's not how the burden of proof works. You are the one wishing to make a definitive interpretation from the comic and to that end it's your responsibility to be able to prove it. My claim is that it's inconclusive, and to that end all I need to do is cast doubt."

In the sense of being a lightsaber instructor? No she wasn't as far as I know. The point is that she wasn't necessarily the best person to be able to pass on Jedi teachings to a new generation of students.

Well that shut you up.

You waited four hours, you've shut precisely no-one up. When people stop talking, it'll purely be from boredom, your arguments are being shut down at every turn.

An explanation for how it qualifies as a hint but not a reference, please.

You being incredibly forgetful isn't a reason for me to stop making casual references to things when 99% of the time people understand exactly what I'm saying.

It's not my exact words that are important here but the context in which they were stated. We were disagreeing about something very specific that we had been having a discussion on in another thread barely a week before. I'm always going to assume that anybody I've engaged in a debate with will have the most basic recollection of our prior interactions.

You literally said 'the' other thread and the one with 'the scans.'

It barely even qualifies as a hint, there's no actual info in there. There's nothing to remember because you didn't reference anything with enough information to tell what you were referencing.




We don't have any reason to believe she was bad at it, the Imperial Knights also picked up other Jedi over the years, and the Imperial Knights themselves show high capability in the modern day.

Your problems are really pretty hollow, you ask us to assume flaws and weaknesses rather than providing any evidence for them.



When Darth Zannah was trained, that was literally only the second generation of Rule of Two sith. She was still expertly trained.

They did not start from scratch. When an order gains it's training from other sources, they don't have to build from the ground up.



Not really what I said. I stated that being promoted to Imperial Knight is a high rank itself and the equivalent of master levels in other orders.

It isn't really a formal separate rank at that- That is to say, there's no Imperial Knights and Imperial Master Knights or Imperial Knight Masters. There are Imperial Knights. Imperial Knight Antares Draco is at the high rank. You'll just refer to him more casually as Master Draco, while you wouldn't call Jao Assim Master Assim.

Whether or not an IK gets called master doesn't actually seem to affect their responsibilities much, it's just a note of respect.


Nor, mind you, does it ignore that I've talked extensively on the power of even people just promoted to knight or referred to as Junior knights, like Jao Assim. Jao Assim was a tough fight for a Sith Lord of major rank in charge of a major project, and he's show massive TK ability. In short, Jao Assim, junior Imperial Knight, has more demonstrated power than Tott and Crado, by a good margin.



Master Mohgran Fel, head bodyguard, has more than the highest rank, he has a specific position of importance besides from specific rank.

And the other three likely weren't notable... but like I've also emphasized several times, even junior Imperial Knights like Maraisah Fel and Jao Assim show master-level capabilities by Jedi standards and show themselves to be dangerous combatants.


Anyway, this is really just you being obtuse. Most of your objections have already been addressed, and you largely spend your time making up new ones from scratch.

'Ah ha, there is a such thing as master level! That must mean the others are weak,' (Ignoring everything Q's said about the basic level of a junior Imperial Knight) and such.

And assuming they don't have good training because they were founded by.... Jaina Solo, massively skilled Jedi who simply hasn't explicitly taught. And ignoring the other Jedi in the order...


If that's all you've got, well, you simply don't have any objections of note. You can't rely on a combination of assuming unshown flaws and ignoring information that's already been stated for your arguments, and that's what your arguments are based on.

Every time you bring something up, I shoot it down, and then you just bring it up again ignoring what I've said.

That's no fun and I think you know full well you're just arguing for arguing at this point and that your points have already been answered in spades. Your objections to the IKs, Krayt, etc., just don't hold up.

At this point I believe my arguments stand on their own merits and nothing further needs to be added, but as you've brought up a few additional points I'll briefly respond to some of those.



I understand that but my point remains that the IK Order doesn't appear to have a particularly great lineage from those other sources by all available evidence. With the Rule of Two, Bane's knowledge has been extremely well documented; he obsessively memorised everything Kas'im had to teach him about all seven lightsaber forms, and he did the same with both Darth Revan and Freedon Nadd's holocrons, two of the single greatest sources of Sith teachings we've ever come across, not to mention numerous other sources of knowledge he sought out and gathered. Bane also comes across as being pratically destined to take on the role of leader and teacher. The IK Order, and Jaina Solo, by comparison, have not been documented to possess such a knowledge base. I wouldn't say Zannah was the absolute best people to judge the ROT's initial quality of training either, when it's made very clear that she's possessive of one of the most incredible connections to the Force we've ever seen. Perhaps she would have been far more powerful, if she had lived at a time where knowledge of Sith teachings were at their pinnacle.

Also, while not from a combat standpoint so much, the Rule of Two actually helps illustrate my point in the sense that one of its main points was that the Order would have to be extremely patient and wait many, many years before acting against the Jedi, so that they could gather as much knowledge as possible and refine their methods of decrecy and deception. I believe Sidious is referred to in many sources as a product of a thousand years of knowledge and teachings, so clearly, as far as the Order's main approach is concerned, being around for a lot longer than a mere few generations helped incredibly.



Which is clearly the exception rather than the rule. As I said, would you judge the BOD by the exploits of one of its students in Bane?



Head bodyguard? According to the wookiepedia page he was a close confidant and one of the chief bodyguards, and it's certainly not hard to imagine that their familial connection would have factored in to Roan Fel being inclined to having him operate closely to him.

Just to clarify, I agree that Krayt's performance agaiunst the IKs was extremely impressive. Believe it or not I was one of the few people that first spoke up for Krayt when the comic first came out and people like Tempest were massively dismissive of him (this was at the main Star Wars forums a few years ago; he went by the name Tempest4Eva), and it was largely because of that feat which I found hugely impressive. My point is that these IKs are the very definition of featless nobodies and that the Jedi on team 2 were clearly portrayed as being exceptional Jedi, so I just don't think there's any comparison between the two. You're also making a massive assumption in thinking that Krayt simply blitzed them and are just being stubborn at this point in sticking with that interpretation and ignoring the implications of having lightsaber resistant armor. I will eventually read the entire Legacy series, but as it stands right now I also wouldn't be at all surprised if you've been massively exaggerating how much more powerful Reborn Krayt is than his armored counterpart.

Holy **** please let this topic continue to the next page so I don't have to side scroll any more...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy **** please let this topic continue to the next page so I don't have to side scroll any more...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
q99 is crushing appletonia

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia.

He's gone mad.

Totally mad.

Yeah, they mad.