If Captain America is a 10

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riv6672
Where do these other team leaders rate?
Please list/rate any prominent ones i didnt jot down.
Due to reboots and such, classic versions would be best, if not please say why.


1. Reed Richards

2. Superman

3. Nightwing

4. Cyclops

5. Leonardo

6. Cosmic Boy

7. Alan Scott GL

8. Guardian

9. Magneto

10. Sinestro

Iskandar
The ninja turtle?

riv6672
Yes!

MF DELPH
Optimus Prime - Over 9000.

DarkSaint85
1. Reed Richards - 4. Terrible leader, got his team into the worst accident of their lives. Doesn't talk to his team mates, one of whom is a doofus, the other is his wife, and his best friend who is in awe of his intellect. No real leadership there.

2. Superman - 9 Serves the same function as Cap, really, in the DCU. However, this is a function of him being the fastest/strongest/flyingest guy in the world, rather than his interpersonal skills (which are still top notch, don't eat me HoEs).

3. Nightwing - 10. Handpicked by Batman to lead the JLA, led the Titans, Outsiders, all without being the best at anything or being feared.

4. Cyclops - 10. Same as Cap, but with mutants. AvX showed how powerful his leadership was, splitting Marvel down the middle. Not to mention, even after the event, he still can lead his own team.

5. Leonardo - 8. The Renaissance painter is without equal, and my personal fav, but even though he invented the tank and the helicopter, as well as painted the Mona Lisa, I wouldn't put his leadership skills as high as Cap's.

6. Cosmic Boy - dunno

7. Alan Scott GL - 7. Elder stateman of the JSA, but shares this with Wildcat/Jay. Again, leader by dint of his sheer power. Also, his age.

8. Guardian - Alpha Flight? Who cares (KM).

9. Magneto - 8. Brotherhood, 'nuff said. However, New X-men kinda spoiled it for me, when he became addicted to Kick.

10. Sinestro - 6. Ruling by fear is a prerequisite for his corps, I know. But that doesn't make you that great a leader.

riv6672
Thanks, DS.

And now my quibbles and comments.

Superman i'd rate 1-2 points lower, only because unlike your other 9s and 10s, Batman usually serves as the battle field leader, even telling Superman where he'd be most useful.

LO frikkin' L at Leonardo summation.

Cosmic Boy was iffy. I assume he's the Legion leader, more often than not.

Guardian. Not even a low score? Whats KM? Drawing a blank.

Finally, Nightwing. Totally agree with you, and saying that, especially with NOT being the best, or feared (not just in universe, but comics wide), i'd give him an 11, or at the least a +.

Deadline
Originally posted by riv6672
Thanks, DS.

And now my quibbles and comments.

Superman i'd rate 1-2 points lower, only because unlike your other 9s and 10s, Batman usually serves as the battle field leader, even telling Superman where he'd be most useful.

LO frikkin' L at Leonardo summation.

Cosmic Boy was iffy. I assume he's the Legion leader, more often than not.

Guardian. Not even a low score? Whats KM? Drawing a blank.

Finally, Nightwing. Totally agree with you, and saying that, especially with NOT being the best, or feared (not just in universe, but comics wide), i'd give him an 11, or at the least a +.

Nightwing is better than Cap? You read the Korvac Saga under Waid were Cap convinces alien races to team up against Korvac and convinves Korvac's servant to betray him. Can Nighwing beat that? WWH was upset Cap was dead etc.

KM is a poster that loves Alpha Flight.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
9. Magneto - 8. Brotherhood, 'nuff said. However, New X-men kinda spoiled it for me, when he became addicted to Kick.
That wasn't Magneto stick out tongue

DarkSaint85
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/themanwonder/Leadership/btb15-dcu2.jpg

'Next to Superman, Dick Grayson is the one guy alive that every other crimefighter trusts'

Deadline
^ That doesn't prove he's better than Cap. It could also be argued that DC heroes are softies. A herochat poster said something really funny if Cap lived in the DC universe they would basically worship him.

It's harder to lead in the MU.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/themanwonder/Leadership/btb15-dcu2.jpg

'Next to Superman, Dick Grayson is the one guy alive that every other crimefighter trusts'

Ha, and again i thank you, DS.
I was going to bring up that very example to Deadline.

And really, my 11 and + for NW is just personal preference.

riv6672
Originally posted by Deadline
^ That doesn't prove he's better than Cap. It could also be argued that DC heroes are softies. A herochat poster said something really funny if Cap lived in the DC universe they would basically worship him.

It's harder to lead in the MU.

Cap is pretty much worshipped in the MU, too.
Even some gods measure courage by Captain America. I believe the full quote belongs to Hercules. Maybe Thor.

But NW is just not in Cap's league as far as being an icon goes. For him to inspire such trust in DC heroes is a greater "feat".

Deadline
It may be your personal preference but were trying to be objective here, not subjective.

Originally posted by riv6672

But NW is just not in Cap's league as far as being an icon goes. For him to inspire such trust in DC heroes is a greater "feat".

and I'm saying it isn't cos DC is a less harsh universe.

DarkSaint85
Hmm.

I guess my/rivv's thinking (ignoring the DC/Marvel comment, because, frankly, each universe is as good/bad as each other, and is trolling), was this:

Cap is a living legend. He is looked up to and revered as this amazing guy, from World War 2. And the reason why he had such a badass rep, was because back then, he WAS the top dog, the numero uno powerwise. Plus, invincible shield and all that. He gets defrosted in the 60s/70s whenever, with a leadership rep already made.

In other words, he's a legend the same way Superman is a legend. They are both top dogs in their respective timeline. If you were a baddie, you make your bones by taking down Superman/Cap.

THAT is why they are inspiring. Because they are unbeatable.

Of course, it is not the only reason - or else, what would the alien races care about some relic from a faraway war? But it is the main reason he is held in such awe by Marvel Earth.

Nightwing? He's just an acrobat with two sticks. And he's ordering all these powered individuals around, without being the strongest, fastest, smartest, or, arguably, the most tactically aware (as Cap is always shown to be). Neither does he have a power ring, or an unbreakable shield. He is leading through his personality and people skills, not through fear, having come up from the ranks, first as a kid sidekick, then as his own hero.

That would be why his leadership could be argued to be > Cap.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hmm.

I guess my/rivv's thinking (ignoring the DC/Marvel comment, because, frankly, each universe is as good/bad as each other, and is trolling), was this:

Cap is a living legend. He is looked up to and revered as this amazing guy, from World War 2. And the reason why he had such a badass rep, was because back then, he WAS the top dog, the numero uno powerwise. Plus, invincible shield and all that. He gets defrosted in the 60s/70s whenever, with a leadership rep already made.

In other words, he's a legend the same way Superman is a legend. They are both top dogs in their respective timeline. If you were a baddie, you make your bones by taking down Superman/Cap.

THAT is why they are inspiring. Because they are unbeatable.

Of course, it is not the only reason - or else, what would the alien races care about some relic from a faraway war? But it is the main reason he is held in such awe by Marvel Earth.

Nightwing? He's just an acrobat with two sticks. And he's ordering all these powered individuals around, without being the strongest, fastest, smartest, or, arguably, the most tactically aware (as Cap is always shown to be). Neither does he have a power ring, or an unbreakable shield. He is leading through his personality and people skills, not through fear, having come up from the ranks, first as a kid sidekick, then as his own hero.

That would be why his leadership could be argued to be > Cap.

Thanks again again DS. Thats basically what my reasoning is here.

And Deadline, seems you're being a wee bit more subjective yourself than you may realize.

DarkSaint85
Two more things that Cap has in his favour, which Nightwing did not have to help him achieve his status:

1. A massive propaganda machine during WW2 which helps build his rep up; and
2. A massive jobber aura. When Cap is putting the hurting on Hulk, THE Hulk, it inspires people like Spiderman to get up and fight. Nightwing does not have this, and so, he inspires and leads people again, through his people and leadership skills.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Two more things that Cap has in his favour, which Nightwing did not have to help him achieve his status:

1. A massive propaganda machine during WW2 which helps build his rep up; and
This one is phucking huge.

They even had 2-3 other CAPs and Buckys to keep the legend alive.

Eixuheus
1. Reed Richards 8

2. Superman 12

3. Nightwing 14

4. Cyclops 14

5. Leonardo 8

6. Cosmic Boy 8

7. Alan Scott GL 8

8. Guardian 8

9. Magneto 6

10. Sinestro 9

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Two more things that Cap has in his favour, which Nightwing did not have to help him achieve his status:

1. A massive propaganda machine during WW2 which helps build his rep up; and
2. A massive jobber aura. When Cap is putting the hurting on Hulk, THE Hulk, it inspires people like Spiderman to get up and fight. Nightwing does not have this, and so, he inspires and leads people again, through his people and leadership skills.

You're killing this.
You're able to build up one character while not taking anything away from the other. thumb up

riv6672
Originally posted by Eixuheus
1. Reed Richards 8

2. Superman 12

3. Nightwing 14

4. Cyclops 14

5. Leonardo 8

6. Cosmic Boy 8

7. Alan Scott GL 8

8. Guardian 8

9. Magneto 6

10. Sinestro 9

There's really no right and wrong here but, that is one cockeyed list. Biggest ones'd be Cyclops and Superman as better leaders than Cap. Thats...highly debatable.

krisblaze
Originally posted by riv6672
There's really no right and wrong here but, that is one cockeyed list. Biggest ones'd be Cyclops and Superman as better leaders than Cap. Thats...highly debatable.
I would also rate Cyclops higher.

I'm just not that much impressed by Cap and Superman.

They're ubeatable flagship-characters, and while Cap certainly did an amazing job during the war, it doesn't really feel like it was all him....Obviously a super-hero draped in the flag of a country is going to rally the troops of that country.

Cap is a great symbol, but from what I've read of Avengers comics 70s through late 80s , I don't see what makes him such a divine leader.

DarkSaint85
True.

Cyclops is the spokesman of an entire race of people, and wasn't born to it, neither was he elected to it. Not that he seized it by force, but rather, he fell into that role, and people just shrugged their shoulders and said, you know what, we're OK with this. And followed him without question.

Prof. T.C McAbe
1. Reed Richards - 5

2. Superman - 10

3. Nightwing - 12

4. Cyclops - 10

5. Leonardo - 10

6. Cosmic Boy - 8

7. Alan Scott GL - 10

8. Guardian - ?

9. Magneto - 9

10. Sinestro - 8

11. Batman - 15

Eixuheus
Originally posted by riv6672
There's really no right and wrong here but, that is one cockeyed list. Biggest ones'd be Cyclops and Superman as better leaders than Cap. Thats...highly debatable. Cyclops totally embarrassed Cap during AvX. Cap's leadership ability is overrated.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hmm.

I guess my/rivv's thinking (ignoring the DC/Marvel comment, because, frankly, each universe is as good/bad as each other, and is trolling), was this:


Not sure what you mean but they hunt and kill mutants in the DCU and were going to have all superhumans registered? Sry mate Marvel is more cynical.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Cap is a living legend. He is looked up to and revered as this amazing guy, from World War 2. And the reason why he had such a badass rep, was because back then, he WAS the top dog, the numero uno powerwise. Plus, invincible shield and all that. He gets defrosted in the 60s/70s whenever, with a leadership rep already made.

In other words, he's a legend the same way Superman is a legend. They are both top dogs in their respective timeline. If you were a baddie, you make your bones by taking down Superman/Cap.

THAT is why they are inspiring. Because they are unbeatable.

Of course, it is not the only reason - or else, what would the alien races care about some relic from a faraway war? But it is the main reason he is held in such awe by Marvel Earth.

Nightwing? He's just an acrobat with two sticks. And he's ordering all these powered individuals around, without being the strongest, fastest, smartest, or, arguably, the most tactically aware (as Cap is always shown to be). Neither does he have a power ring, or an unbreakable shield. He is leading through his personality and people skills, not through fear, having come up from the ranks, first as a kid sidekick, then as his own hero.

That would be why his leadership could be argued to be > Cap.

I see what your saying but the problem is Marvel is a more cynical universe so it's harder to inspire. You're also penalising Cap because he happens to better at Nightwing at everything. He has better fighting skills, stronger will and has better people skills.

Back to Korvac arc I don't even think the people or aliens have even heard of him because it was 100s of years in the future. Not to mention that even if the aliens have even heard of him why should they help him? To illustrate my point:

Aliens: So you're some hero who existed 100s of years in the past in some far away alien culture and you want us to go up against a guy that can manipulate time by waving his hand? Uhhh and why should we listen to you?

At least DC heroes actually know who he is. Also this argument about him being the best is redundent because you're going up against a guy who can manipulate time by waving his hand. Not to menton that the servant never heard of him either and Cap still inspired him to betray Korvac. You know what the servant at the end of the arc called himself...Captain America. Something tells me Cap didn't convince him due to his fighting skills.

No I'm not being subjective I'm using the criteria you're using and Cap is still a better leader. When NW can do a leadership feat like that then we can talk.


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Two more things that Cap has in his favour, which Nightwing did not have to help him achieve his status:

1. A massive propaganda machine during WW2 which helps build his rep up; and


Korvac arc cancels that out. This also doesn't give Cap a freepass. First of all Cap earned that reputation. Secondly despite the propaganada machine the govt has on at least one ocassion tried to 'sack' him from his 'job'. Did you not read Civil War were a journalist lambasted him despite the fact he's saved the planet on numerous ocassions? That was a long time ago and in the MU you don't get a freepass because you were some WW2 hero. People are ungrateful and cynical.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

2. A massive jobber aura. When Cap is putting the hurting on Hulk, THE Hulk, it inspires people like Spiderman to get up and fight.


...and we can end this right here. If you're going to argue that Cap has a jobber aura then we can stop having a serious debate. You don't tell somebody who has been able to do that for his whole career that he has a jobber aura, thats what he can do. It's like saying the Silver Sufer has a jobber aura because he can travel FTL.

You could make that argument about Batman because he wasn't always able to do that he only started getting a push in the 90s.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Nightwing does not have this, and so, he inspires and leads people again, through his people and leadership skills.

Again Korvac arc, nobody knew who he was and his fighting skills didn't make a difference. Not to mention the fact he had to convince aliens to help him.

DarkSaint85
Oh, and another candidate, one who has no respect:

Aquaman.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/05/2e/c8/052ec83760121e392b3682f359d26818.jpg

Again, not born into it, was actually an outcast because of his blondeness...and still rules. Not only the Atlanteans, but all marine life.

DCnU has a weaker grasp of Atlanteans, but a stronger case to be made in terms of sea life (as in, he no longer commands them - he asks them, and they can decide if they want to follow his orders).

None of the guys on this list are able to lead 'lower' lifeforms sneer. No fish is following Cap into battle.

riv6672
Namor would. wink

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
Not sure what you mean but they hunt and kill mutants in the DCU and were going to have all superhumans registered? Sry mate Marvel is more cynical.
Lol, that's precisely what happened to the JSA (with the House Un-American Activities Committee). With regards to mutants, obviously no such thing exists (as there are no 'mutants' as such), but they do have the Keene Act. Which enables the use of superpowered individuals as the government's personal army.




Harder to inspire....this coming from a universe where a man wrapped in the US flag and carrying a shield with a star rallies people around him.


Cap is a constant. We see this in all the alternate futures when Cap time travelled into the future and met Franklin Richards, or in the Ultron storyline with Avengers AI - there is always an Avengers, and there is always a Cap.


Fair enough, your argument DOES seem to hinge on this one Korvac arc though. Granted, it's ONE feat to my ZERO, so I can concede on this.


By having an indestructible shield, and being better than 90% of the cannon fodder Germans he went up against.


I have indeed, and I have also readthe comics where someone looks at Cap in awe and says things like, I used to hear stories about him from my granddad...I can't believe I'm in the same room as him etc etc. Hell, he;s even called a Living Legend.


Oh, Batman absolutely has this. Massively so. I'm just saying, that a lot of the awe he inspires in people, that builds his reputation up, is based on him being able to hurt people who, if we just looked at their bios, he has no business hurting. The underdog who wins despite the odds. I'm not saying disregard it, I'm just saying his ability to hurt the Hulk has nothing to do with him being a good leader.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
Namor would. wink

To Namor, every lifeform is lesser to him.

riv6672
I meant Namor was the fish that'd follow Cap!

Edit:
As you can tell i've bowed out of the Deadline conversation. I have a headache and he's not going to change his mind. Still, i think you've made a great argument for NW; better than i ever could have.

janus77
1. Reed Richards - 3: not at all trustworthy or very good at the whole morale thing

2. Superman - 7: great for morale, but too boring and apt to just get you punching things


4. Cyclops - 9: pretty much perfect, 'cept for when he's a boyscout

5. Leonardo - 6: excellent leader, but a turtle??


9. Magneto - 7: great charisma, intelligence and planning, but whole evil bastard thing and occasional moments of moral compromise make him difficult to follow

10. Sinestro - 6: see Magneto, but less intelligent and charismatic

Prof. T.C McAbe
Aquaman would be a 10-12, he is the ruler of the biggest realm on earth.

krisblaze
^ Janus, rate Surfer also

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Lol, that's precisely what happened to the JSA (with the House Un-American Activities Committee). With regards to mutants, obviously no such thing exists (as there are no 'mutants' as such), but they do have the Keene Act. Which enables the use of superpowered individuals as the government's personal army.


Ok good point. However mutants do exist and you can imagine it's going to be harder for Cap to inspire mutants to follow him. I don't think a mutant that has been hunted and persecuted really cares about a 'human' who fought for humans in ww2, despite this Cap has lead both mutants and non-mutants into battle. You're also forgetting people are much more cynical for example J. Jonah Jamenson has made a career out of making super heros look bad. Don't think DCU has a Jonah Jamenson (not sure if thats how you spell his name).

Not sure if that act is the same as the superhuman registration act because as you know people weren't just hating mutants but other metas as well. Even the Human Torch got hate, that's how bad thing got and the FF are quite popular. The superhuman registration act happened because people didn't trust heroes, that act seems to be more like the govt wants the superhumans help.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Harder to inspire....this coming from a universe where a man wrapped in the US flag and carrying a shield with a star rallies people around him.


You're really blowing this out of proportion. Thanks for mentioning mutants, a lot of mutants are not going to give Cap a free pass because he fought in ww2. One good example is in the Wolverine series were Cap gives a young mutant advice and the mutant told him to F off, but I'm pretty sure that the mutant is going to take Cap more seriously because he nearly got killed because he didn't take his advice.

What about the arc were Cap entered the superhuman wrestling federation and they basically ended up rushing him? They didn't care about WW2 either, they also basically said they weren't even impressed by him (despite the fact he was fighting against a group of trained wrestlers with superhuman strength).

It doesn't matter wether the JSA got fired from their 'job' it still doesn't change the fact that you're arguing that Cap some how has this untouchable status. If that were the case that would have never happened. If you want to argue that the universe isn't less cynical that's another point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Cap is a constant. We see this in all the alternate futures when Cap time travelled into the future and met Franklin Richards, or in the Ultron storyline with Avengers AI - there is always an Avengers, and there is always a Cap.


Fair enough, your argument DOES seem to hinge on this one Korvac arc though. Granted, it's ONE feat to my ZERO, so I can concede on this.


Nope they didn't know who he was. Korvac had to explain to his servant who Cap was. That's even more imnpressive by the fact he had to convinvce aliens to work with him. At least Cyclops and Aquaman have something in common with their people. Yea I pretty much win this argument. There are probably other examples of him doing this but that's the one I can remember (or know).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


By having an indestructible shield, and being better than 90% of the cannon fodder Germans he went up against.



Better than Gotham or Bludhaven thugs. Some thing tells me that its not all down to NWs personality that people listen him. I'm pretty sure his skills and superhero career at least play some role in the respect he gets and Cap is better than him even without the shield and SSS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


I have indeed, and I have also readthe comics where someone looks at Cap in awe and says things like, I used to hear stories about him from my granddad...I can't believe I'm in the same room as him etc etc. Hell, he;s even called a Living Legend.


and there are lots of people who don't care about his reputation.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Oh, Batman absolutely has this. Massively so. I'm just saying, that a lot of the awe he inspires in people, that builds his reputation up, is based on him being able to hurt people who, if we just looked at their bios, he has no business hurting. The underdog who wins despite the odds. I'm not saying disregard it, I'm just saying his ability to hurt the Hulk has nothing to do with him being a good leader.

Ok.

krisblaze
^Cap needed Wolverine to reach out to Molly Hayes

Apparently his breath smelled like shit.

Some leader.

Deadline
^Trolling.

riv6672
Yeah, you arent changing your mind.
Lets just agree to not agree, ok.

Edit:
Krisblaze is apt yo do that to help offset his good posts.

krisblaze
Originally posted by Deadline
^Trolling.
Well, yeah.

Like Dark Saint said though, Cyclops leads in spite of his failing popularity.

Steve leads because of his popularity.

Deadline
Originally posted by riv6672
Yeah, you arent changing your mind.
Lets just agree to not agree, ok.

Edit:
Krisblaze is apt yo do that to help offset his good posts.

Sure but that doesn't change the fact that based on what I said I'm right.

janus77
Originally posted by krisblaze
^ Janus, rate Surfer also
Surfer would be an awful leader, sadly.

He's a loner, that's where he's best. Exploring, occasionally fighting, often just surfing the universe.

He has charisma, but he's too much of a natural pacifist to lead people without bringing them down. When he's ruthless, he's too scary to lead, like having Savage Hulk lead a team. Too much power and too much anger.

riv6672
Originally posted by Deadline
Sure but that doesn't change the fact that based on what I said I'm right.
Haha, as long as you get the last word, of course laughing

DarkSaint85
Just one last point (as I have conceded on the Korvac showing):

Cap does not lead mutants. We saw that abundantly clear in AvX, and even more so in Uncanny Avengers, where he acknowledges this and let's Havok take the reins - precisely because he is seen as 'pro-human' and 'anti-mutant'.

Besides, they have their own figurehead - Cyclops.

Whereas NW leads across the spectrum. Outsiders, Teen Titans, JLA (twice), villains, hell, the only mainstream team he hasn't led is the JSA.


And whilst I agree, he IS better than Gotham/Bludhaven thugs, he doesn't get built up into this awesome mythic figure like Cap or even Batman is. He has skills, sure, I'm not making him out to be some nobody...

I guess the simplest analogy, is that Cap is the star quarterback, who got a shot of super steroids (I am simplifying a lot, obviously). He is THE best in terms of strength, skills, tactics, and yes, he is a likeable person. Not taking anything away from that.

NW is the guy who started out in the reserves, the B teams, and slowly worked his way up. He's by no means the best, but when he speaks, people listen. And that's why I put him at the same level as Cap, Rivv put him above, and I wouldn't dismiss that out of hand.

Incidentally, the Keene Act enables the creation of the Suicide Squad, and Waller implanting bombs in prisoners etc.

Deadline
Originally posted by riv6672
Haha, as long as you get the last word, of course laughing

To be quite honest, not really. It's just that you seem to think that having an opinion in itself is something sacred. It isn't.



Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just one last point (as I have conceded on the Korvac showing):


Oh I just remembered Cap convinced Arnim Zola's daughter to betray him. No reason why she should care about Cap's rep if anything she was taught to hate him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Cap does not lead mutants. We saw that abundantly clear in AvX, and even more so in Uncanny Avengers, where he acknowledges this and let's Havok take the reins - precisely because he is seen as 'pro-human' and 'anti-mutant'.

Besides, they have their own figurehead - Cyclops.


That's really unfair. You're taking that one story and ignoring the fact that Cap has lead Cyclops into battle on more than one ocassion. As far as I remember Havok wanted Cap to lead but Cap didn't because he was too humble. Cap was right in the Civil War and even won it but decided to give himself up, he didn't need to. No to mention the fact all that rubbish that reporter accused Cap of was nonsense. Instead of Cap sticking up for himself he felt guilty. That's what happened in Uncanny Avengers, Cyclops stated that Cap didn't do enough to help mutants, that's nonsense. Cap let Havok lead out of guilt.

It's not Cap's role to lead mutants. Really it shouldn't matter but it makes sense for Cyclops to lead mutants due to his history. Cyclops is bit like Aquaman and Black Panther in the sense that to some extent they are all destined to rule. Cap doesn't have that 'destiny'.

Originally posted by riv6672

Whereas NW leads across the spectrum. Outsiders, Teen Titans, JLA (twice), villains, hell, the only mainstream team he hasn't led is the JSA.


And whilst I agree, he IS better than Gotham/Bludhaven thugs, he doesn't get built up into this awesome mythic figure like Cap or even Batman is. He has skills, sure, I'm not making him out to be some nobody...

I guess the simplest analogy, is that Cap is the star quarterback, who got a shot of super steroids (I am simplifying a lot, obviously). He is THE best in terms of strength, skills, tactics, and yes, he is a likeable person. Not taking anything away from that.

NW is the guy who started out in the reserves, the B teams, and slowly worked his way up. He's by no means the best, but when he speaks, people listen. And that's why I put him at the same level as Cap, Rivv put him above, and I wouldn't dismiss that out of hand.

Incidentally, the Keene Act enables the creation of the Suicide Squad, and Waller implanting bombs in prisoners etc.

Yea I get what you're saying.

krisblaze
Arnim Zola's daughter betraying him has nothing to do with Cap virtually raising and feeding her in the wild?

And risking his life to save her countless times?

Deadline
Originally posted by krisblaze
Arnim Zola's daughter betraying him has nothing to do with Cap virtually raising and feeding her in the wild?

And risking his life to save her countless times?

...I think you're talking about his son....

krisblaze
Originally posted by Deadline
...I think you're talking about his son....
I must be.

Was it the son who betrayed him?

Cba to shift through that romita shit again

Deadline
Originally posted by krisblaze
I must be.

Was it the son who betrayed him?

Cba to shift through that romita shit again

No I think his son got mind controlled to hate Cap. Yea I dropped Cap.

krisblaze
Originally posted by Deadline
No I think his son got mind controlled to hate Cap. Yea I dropped Cap.
I think we need a more definite clarification of what a 10 in leadership means.

Deadline
^ That could be tough. Leadership is like intelligence lots of different ways to measure it.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just one last point (as I have conceded on the Korvac showing):

Cap does not lead mutants. We saw that abundantly clear in AvX, and even more so in Uncanny Avengers, where he acknowledges this and let's Havok take the reins - precisely because he is seen as 'pro-human' and 'anti-mutant'.

Besides, they have their own figurehead - Cyclops.

Whereas NW leads across the spectrum. Outsiders, Teen Titans, JLA (twice), villains, hell, the only mainstream team he hasn't led is the JSA.


And whilst I agree, he IS better than Gotham/Bludhaven thugs, he doesn't get built up into this awesome mythic figure like Cap or even Batman is. He has skills, sure, I'm not making him out to be some nobody...

I guess the simplest analogy, is that Cap is the star quarterback, who got a shot of super steroids (I am simplifying a lot, obviously). He is THE best in terms of strength, skills, tactics, and yes, he is a likeable person. Not taking anything away from that.

NW is the guy who started out in the reserves, the B teams, and slowly worked his way up. He's by no means the best, but when he speaks, people listen. And that's why I put him at the same level as Cap, Rivv put him above, and I wouldn't dismiss that out of hand.

Incidentally, the Keene Act enables the creation of the Suicide Squad, and Waller implanting bombs in prisoners etc.

Nice analogy.

Didnt know about the Keens act and the squad, or if i did i'd forgotten.

GroggyGrunt
Cyclops is a freakin' 15 on this scale. He's basically been the unspoken linchpin against mutant Armageddon since his inception. Cyke's arguably done no less than Xavier, but in the field and (generally) without the recognition.

riv6672
Those are good arguments.
Not good enough for me to ever rate him a 15. I just dont see anyone we could list as over a 10, except Nightwing, really. And thats more of an asterisk.
Guys like Cyclops have been absent from good chunks of their team's history. He falls more into the elder statesman mold, like Alan Scott.
Guys like Superman have battle field generals.
Reed is a genius but not a very good leader, really.
So yeah, no one should be getting over a 10.

GroggyGrunt
To clarify, the 15 mark was hyperbole.

That being said, I don't see how Cyclops rates below Nightwing considering his history. Cross-universe chronology isn't an exact science, but by all rights Nightwing was just a pup when Cyke was already shouldering the best interests of TWO races in a constant, global, covert (for a time) war.

The X-Men has been a pretty liquid team, I'm not sure what relevance there is in saying he hasn't always "been there". Xavier took a back seat to him in the Messiah arc, that speaks volumes.

I feel Cyclops is being dealt a terrible injustice here. Has he not suffered enough in his cinematic portrayals? stick out tongue

riv6672
Oh god, the movies...sick

You're right about chronology, but really, a pup? Cyclops isnt THAT much older than NW.
And, NW was 10 when he became Robin.
He was also being trained by one of the greatest heroes in comics in deduction, HtH, tactics, weapons, etc., while going at it with some of the sickest most psychotic villains around.
Whatever Xavier was teaching Cyclops was very good, but likely not on Batman's level. And the X villains, while dangerous as hell, werent likely to shoot Cyclops dead.
This is apples and oranges though. I just found that pup remark worth touching on.

GroggyGrunt
Originally posted by riv6672
Oh god, the movies...sick

You're right about chronology, but really, a pup? Cyclops isnt THAT much older than NW.
And, NW was 10 when he became Robin.
He was also being trained by one of the greatest heroes in comics in deduction, HtH, tactics, weapons, etc., while going at it with some of the sickest most psychotic villains around.
Whatever Xavier was teaching Cyclops was very good, but likely not on Batman's level. And the X villains, while dangerous as hell, werent likely to shoot Cyclops dead.
This is apples and oranges though. I just found that pup remark worth touching on.

Fair enough, I'll concede that "pup" isn't accurate.

I'm not doubting the fighting skills that NW developed as Robin, but those aren't leadership skills. Cyclops was trained as a leader from the moment Xavier took him under his wing (I have no idea how old he was without looking it up, but most likely early teens as that's usually when their powers manifest and Prof comes looking for them). And what do you mean the X villains "weren't trying to shoot Cyclops dead"? Of course they were. Ostensibly, the villains are always trying to do away with the heroes...but they're comics.

And I can't overstate the kind of weight that Scott is consistently burdened with. It's not a one-off thing, it's a constant. And that's only talking about the general state of mutant affairs, let alone his own family's drama.

riv6672
Cyclops for sure got the up front leadership training, but, the training NW got WAS leadership training, same as in the military. You apply the lessons learned as a subordinate when you get soldiers of your own.
When he met his meta peers they almost immediately defaulted to him.
As to the villains, i disagree. Before comics became a body count based industry, the Bat villains were unique in their willingness to kill when compared to non Bat villains. Just MO, though.
Whats not opinion though, is your last point about Cyclops. Thats why i call him an elder statesman.

Bentley
Kang is the biggest leader in comics thumb up

riv6672
Haha

Q99
I'll mention another good one: Wonder Woman. She gets overlooked, but she's a tactician/strategist, she's inspiring, she's done the whole 'pull a bunch of heroes together because she's *WonderWoman*' thing (In WW600, gathered a whole army of heroines on the spot), and serves as a military commander fairly often. When the Greek and Indian pantheons fought together against Chronus's Titans, they picked Wonder Woman to lead them. At least a 9.

CadenceV2
I know where Godzilla stands.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/KingGojira2014/JOHNNY5-PC/Pictures/Comics/Godzilla/Artwork_Funny/Memes11_zpsd11b29e5.png

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Q99
I'll mention another good one: Wonder Woman. She gets overlooked, but she's a tactician/strategist, she's inspiring, she's done the whole 'pull a bunch of heroes together because she's *WonderWoman*' thing (In WW600, gathered a whole army of heroines on the spot), and serves as a military commander fairly often. When the Greek and Indian pantheons fought together against Chronus's Titans, they picked Wonder Woman to lead them. At least a 9.

In WW3 (the Morrison penned one) she led the entire EARTH, plus the Angelic Host, into battle.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Q99
I'll mention another good one: Wonder Woman. She gets overlooked, but she's a tactician/strategist, she's inspiring, she's done the whole 'pull a bunch of heroes together because she's *WonderWoman*' thing (In WW600, gathered a whole army of heroines on the spot), and serves as a military commander fairly often. When the Greek and Indian pantheons fought together against Chronus's Titans, they picked Wonder Woman to lead them. At least a 9.
laughing out loud

She is a decent but unremarkable leader. I wouldn't even give her 4 points compared to cap.

GroggyGrunt
Originally posted by riv6672
Cyclops for sure got the up front leadership training, but, the training NW got WAS leadership training, same as in the military. You apply the lessons learned as a subordinate when you get soldiers of your own.
When he met his meta peers they almost immediately defaulted to him.
As to the villains, i disagree. Before comics became a body count based industry, the Bat villains were unique in their willingness to kill when compared to non Bat villains. Just MO, though.
Whats not opinion though, is your last point about Cyclops. Thats why i call him an elder statesman.

Fair points, but I disagree on the villains. Even when the kids gloves were on, villains were still ostensibly trying to kill the heroes (usually while shouting things like "I'll destroy you!" and such big grin ) .

Anywho, I guess we'll agree to disagree on NW/Cyke.



confused

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In WW3 (the Morrison penned one) she led the entire EARTH, plus the Angelic Host, into battle.
That was because of Superman.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
That was because of Superman.

Yeah, he was crying too much so she had to man up mad

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, he was crying too much so she had to man up mad
laughing out loud

Galan007
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Optimus Prime - Over 9000. Never gets old. thumb up

Bentley
Originally posted by GroggyGrunt
confused

Dude can always get a team of heroes and villains to work together with him. And nobody every wants to, but he's compelling like that eek!

pym-ftw
1. Reed Richards 11

2. Superman 8

3. Nightwing 11

4. Cyclops 12

5. Leonardo 9

6. Cosmic Boy ???

7. Alan Scott GL 7

8. Guardian 7

9. Magneto 4

10. Sinestro 5

11. Pym 8

12. Stark 7

13. Logan 4

14. Prof X 10

15 Storm 6

16. Lex 8

17. Batman 7.5

18. Captain Cold 5.5

19 Norman 4

the Darkone
Optimus Prime would be a 10++, Prime is the type of leader you would go to the gates of hell for. He can inspire his troops when all is lost, change the tide of a battle with his presences and is willing and has put his own life on the line for his friends/family thats a sign of a true leader, TF The Movie him just by showing up kicking the living sh** out of Megatron to the point the deceptions in retreat shows what he bring to the battlefield.

pym-ftw
Tbf Prime seems to be in the top 1% powerwise in universe. He alone walks through waves of decepticons.

riv6672
Originally posted by GroggyGrunt
Fair points, but I disagree on the villains. Even when the kids gloves were on, villains were still ostensibly trying to kill the heroes (usually while shouting things like "I'll destroy you!" and such big grin ) .

Anywho, I guess we'll agree to disagree on NW/Cyke.



confused

No worries, this was a fun back and forth.

Yeah, i haha'd the Kang post, but it WAS very confused

shadowknight
Where do these other team leaders rate?



1. Reed Richards-=4 and that's being generous

2. Superman=8 he would rate higher if he wasn't always leading from the front and wanting to protect his teammates.

3. Nightwing=9 he's vg, but Cap is a beter strategist

4. Cyclops=8 His major weakness isn't stratey but letting his emotion affect his planing and reaction, and to tell the truth he just doesn't have the awe factor to have people follow him come Hell or Highwater the way Cap does.

5. Leonardo=7

6. Cosmic Boy=7

7. Alan Scott GL=6

8. Guardian=Which Guardian

9. Magneto=6

10. Sinestro=7

11. Batman=9.5 IMO Batman is as good if not a better tactician than Csp. But his major weakness is people skills. He's basically the Patton of the superhero world, where Cap is closer to MacArthur.

-K-M-
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
8. Guardian - Alpha Flight? Who cares (KM).

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/uuuuuhwhat.jpg

riv6672
Originally posted by shadowknight
Where do these other team leaders rate?



1. Reed Richards-=4 and that's being generous

2. Superman=8 he would rate higher if he wasn't always leading from the front and wanting to protect his teammates.

3. Nightwing=9 he's vg, but Cap is a beter strategist

4. Cyclops=8 His major weakness isn't stratey but letting his emotion affect his planing and reaction, and to tell the truth he just doesn't have the awe factor to have people follow him come Hell or Highwater the way Cap does.

5. Leonardo=7

6. Cosmic Boy=7

7. Alan Scott GL=6

8. Guardian=Which Guardian

9. Magneto=6

10. Sinestro=7

11. Batman=9.5 IMO Batman is as good if not a better tactician than Csp. But his major weakness is people skills. He's basically the Patton of the superhero world, where Cap is closer to MacArthur.

Ha, i like your Genets analogy. thumb up

Existere
Originally posted by shadowknight
4. Cyclops=8 His major weakness isn't stratey but letting his emotion affect his planing and reaction, and to tell the truth he just doesn't have the awe factor to have people follow him come Hell or Highwater the way Cap does.
Remember in Age of Ultron when Cap was reduced to a snivelling mess because he was hopelessly outgunned against an all powerful robot intent on snuffing out his people?

Cyclops lived that nightmare in Second Coming (against Bastion instead of Ultron), suffering a similar rate of deaths on his side and sense of hopelessness that Cap went through, including Nightcrawler dying in the field, and never allowed emotion to factor in. Dr. Nemesis pointed to Cyclops' leadership as the reason the mutant race survived.

Incidentally, both events were solved by Wolverine time travelling. Lulz.

riv6672
Ha, yeah, this post was worth waiting for. I needed a good laugh.

Existere
I think Cap's a great leader.

I think Cyclops as a character is set-up for even greater feats of leadership though. He's the de facto leader of a minority group constantly on the brink of extinction, and even in comics, there's always a sense that mutants are in a harder position than other heroes because they're hated, underdogs, etc.

The fact that he holds this position of unquestioned leadership despite Cap, Professor X, and others existing in the same universe I think is proof alone.

But, you know, agree to disagree or whatever.

riv6672
Damn straight we disagree! wink stick out tongue

relentless1
what about Batman? he's a great leader and a better strategist than cap too

riv6672
I'd say they're comparable strategists.
Leadership wise the point was made a page or so ago that Batman isnt the most personable fellow.
Not s HUGE factor, but i've served under similar leadership styles to Cap and Batman; i prefer Cap, though the job gets done either way.

krisblaze
I'm liking Havok for an easy 10 here.

riv6672
Underrated leader. Spiffy choice.not sure of a ten, but he's solid.

GroggyGrunt
Yeah, Havok is a very good call. Effectively leading a mutant team that aligns with Xavier's ideals while being under the thumb of the government has got to be a hell of a juggle.

I'd give him an 8 or a 9 on this scale, leaning towards 8.

riv6672
I like. thumb up

pym-ftw
Originally posted by riv6672
Damn straight we disagree! wink stick out tongue Even if you don't like Scott his leadership can't be denied. Just look at how crappy the X-teams perform without him.

Reed is also underrated.

Deadline
Originally posted by Existere
Remember in Age of Ultron when Cap was reduced to a snivelling mess because he was hopelessly outgunned against an all powerful robot intent on snuffing out his people?


For real? Is it me but is Cap getting some hate recently? Is this going to be a trend?

riv6672
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Even if you don't like Scott his leadership can't be denied. Just look at how crappy the X-teams perform without him.

Reed is also underrated.
I dont deny his leadership.

And Reed is an overrated leader. Sue is better. He should default to her and be the team scientist. Which us what he is anyway.

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