Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All out

(No crazy Vaapad action like in ROTS)

Who wins?

Mace with high difficulty

Without Vaapad? Nox.

It's not no Vaapad at all

Without Vaapad to channel or amp Mace, he can't compete with Nox.

Windu stomps

Hm, would he be able to draw off multiple ghosts like he would multiple living sith?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Without Vaapad? Nox.

Originally posted by Trocity
It's not no Vaapad at all

This is true. Just not like in ROTS.

Nox gets to use the ghosts like he did against Thanaton.

I know, but that would be the only thing that gives Windu the edge. Nox is kind of OP while being powered by five Force Ghosts and an enhanced body.

Well whats the point of matching ROTS Vaapad Windu against another sith?

It can work with less Force power based Sith, such as Bane or Vader, but not Nox. He'd obviously overpower Nox eventually.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It can work with less Force power based Sith, such as Bane or Vader, but not Nox. He'd obviously overpower Nox eventually.

He defeated Sidious in a saber duel though.

That's because the amp he got from Sidious is insane. He won't get that much power from most Dark Side users. Even Nox.

And the opponent will be easier to defeat.

Not necessarily. I have my doubts that Mace could fight Bane, Vader, Emperor's Wrath, Kun, Hord, etc. simply because their skill with the saber isn't too shabby either.

If he can perform like he did against Sidious, he can take them.

And Mace's power with the Force isn't too shabby either.

Besides, why is the elements of Mace's style considered some unfair advantage or amplification? Might as well say Nox is banned from using his bound spirits.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And Mace's power with the Force isn't too shabby either.

Besides, why is the elements of Mace's style considered some unfair advantage or amplification? Might as well say Nox is banned from using his bound spirits.

He has vaapad, but not like the one against Sidious. After all, he performed quite different against other sith.

He used a different Vaapad against Sidious? Weird, I've never heard of anything like that.

No, there is nothing different about it. Sidious's inner darkness was greater than that of Mace's other opponents, and Mace submerged himself more deeply into the fight. Because of this, naturally Mace was fighting above his usual tempo--but it isn't some unique or separate ability that he doesn't use in all of his fights.

By not allowing him the mental aspects of Vaapad, he might as well be restricted from using the style--As it is inherently a core aspect of Mace's fighting, in all of his battles.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not necessarily. I have my doubts that Mace could fight Bane, Vader, Emperor's Wrath, Kun, Hord, etc. simply because their skill with the saber isn't too shabby either.

So Mace could disarm Sidious but is not a lock to outduel the Wrath, Kun or freaking Tulak Hord?

There's only a select few in which vapaad wouldn't give him big amps against dark siders and none of those are it.

I always thought he had some sort of a oneness moment kinda thing that made him use vaapad to its full potential since he performed much poorly against weaker dark side users. If you're saying that the stronger the dark side aligned opponent is, the better for Windu; then The Son of Mortis should be pretty easy for Windu to defeat.

Originally posted by Sinious
I always thought he had some sort of a oneness moment kinda thing that made him use vaapad to its full potential since he performed much poorly against weaker dark side users. If you're saying that the stronger the dark side aligned opponent is, the better for Windu; then The Son of Mortis should be pretty easy for Windu to defeat.

Except vapaad is a lightsaber form and to my knowledge doesn't amp his force offense and defense which wouldn't stop the Son of Mortis from TK'ing the hell out of him.

Originally posted by Based
Except vapaad is a lightsaber form and to my knowledge doesn't amp his force offense and defense which wouldn't stop the Son of Mortis from TK'ing the hell out of him.

And you think Sidious' TK isnt superior to Windu?

And you think Anakin's TK isn't superior to Kenobi's?

Originally posted by Sinious
And you think Sidious' TK isnt superior to Windu?

There's a fine line in the gap between Sidious and Mace and the tremendous gap between The Son and Mace.

Like a really fine line.

How is that relevant?

Btw, I'm not saying Windu used something else against Sidious. I'm simply saying that he doesn't always perform that good and since Nox is no Palpatine, it makes more sense to assume he would perform like he did against Dooku so I'm using that incarnation as stated in the OP.

Originally posted by Based
So Mace could disarm Sidious but is not a lock to outduel the Wrath, Kun or freaking Tulak Hord?

There's only a select few in which vapaad wouldn't give him big amps against dark siders and none of those are it.
Sidious permeated with the Dark Side, from Mace's perspective with Shatterpoint, he seemed to be the Dark Side, for good reason. No, the amp Mace received there is never, ever, going to be comparable to the amp he would get from anyone else.

Originally posted by Sinious
How is that relevant?

Btw, I'm not saying Windu used something else against Sidious. I'm simply saying that he doesn't always perform that good and since Nox is no Palpatine, it makes more sense to assume he would perform like he did against Dooku so I'm using that incarnation as stated in the OP.
Vaapad also channels Force energy out of the user without harming them. Only Palpatine has ever pushed it to it's limits. Nox isn't as saber oriented as Dooku, and wouldn't fare the same.

Originally posted by Sinious
How is that relevant?

You're right it's not but you're the one who brought it up..



It's mostly semantics but the OP didn't really make sense. Vapaad would have given him a different amp whether or not you stated it because that's how it works. In the OP you made it sound like Vapaad was forbidden which was a total nerf.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vaapad also channels Force energy out of the user without harming them. Only Palpatine has ever pushed it to it's limits. Nox isn't as saber oriented as Dooku, and wouldn't fare the same.

This does make sense. In the end, it depends on how much Nox can hold him off in sabers. Relying on the force itself won't be enough for Nox.

I however, believe that Windu would defeat Nox at the end.

What? No, Vaapad doesn't feed on the force energies of the opponent. Vaapad's mechanics are almost unrelated to the force, really, at least directly--it's more about emotion.

Sith become more powerful by drawing on their rage, their inner darkness. Mace, as a Jedi, invented Vaapad to put use to his own inner darkness, channeling his negative emotions into something positive.

And just as Sith feed on the fear or anger of their others to stack on their own strength, Mace too accepts the fury of the opponent, the darkness within them, and channels it along with his own--competing the circle.

The effects of Mace's fighting philosophy are not that much different than Sith, it's simply more efficient--Probably most comparable to Scourge's affinity for gorging on the emotions of others.

Mace was at his best in RotS partially because Sidious's inner darkness was greater than the ores he faced, and also because he submerged himself more deeply into the fight--he wasn't holding back like he usually does. Really though, the difference in performance then and in his other showings is overrated. It's certainly significant, but not what is made out to be.

Windu wins, btw.

Nice post.

Mace's personal mental state during that fight is almost as important as the Sith he was facing.

Silver's comicvine thread perfectly puts into picture just how much circumstance surrounded Mace's performance.

That said I think Nox's sorcery abilities are just too much for Mace's force prowess, regardless of magnitude.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
*snip*
Novel says Vaapad is a channel for "darkness" that allowed Palpatine to hardly even touch Mace with his Lightning. Vaapad isn't just about enjoying fighting; it's more than that. Otherwise, it's just be Juyo.

Not without "channeling the darkness" he isn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Novel says Vaapad is a channel for "darkness" that allowed Palpatine to hardly even touch Mace with his Lightning. Vaapad isn't just about enjoying fighting; it's more than that. Otherwise, it's just be Juyo.



He clearly wrote in his post that it channels Mace's inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent's. He said nothing about enjoying fighting either.

Originally posted by Based
He clearly wrote in his post that it channels Mace's inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent's. He said nothing about enjoying fighting either.
Yeah, I think he did. Anyway, I was talking about channeling Force powers, not just inner darkness.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What? No, Vaapad doesn't feed on the force energies of the opponent. Vaapad's mechanics are almost unrelated to the force, really, at least directly--it's more about emotion.

Sith become more powerful by drawing on their rage, their inner darkness. Mace, as a Jedi, invented Vaapad to put use to his own inner darkness, channeling his negative emotions into something positive.

And just as Sith feed on the fear or anger of their others to stack on their own strength, Mace too accepts the fury of the opponent, the darkness within them, and channels it along with his own--competing the circle.

The effects of Mace's fighting philosophy are not that much different than Sith, it's simply more efficient--Probably most comparable to Scourge's affinity for gorging on the emotions of others.

Mace was at his best in RotS partially because Sidious's inner darkness was greater than the ores he faced, and also because he submerged himself more deeply into the fight--he wasn't holding back like he usually does. Really though, the difference in performance then and in his other showings is overrated. It's certainly significant, but not what is made out to be.

Windu wins, btw.

Well put!

I'm late for this but it has been argued that Mace was boosted a shitton in that fight by how insanely pissed off he was at Palpatine being the Dark Lord.

Yeah, there is a huge skill disparity between Nox and Windu as well. Windu is significantly faster, more powerful (naturally), and a much better lightsaber combatant.

Nox is strong but there is no reason to believe his/her ghost move will prove a substantial factor in a majority.

Windu still takes this

It's not a "move." It's an immense augmentation to her raw power.

The gap between his/her skill, natural power, dueling ability, and speed are far more immense than anything else.