Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Battle takes place on neutral ground

1. Maul is equipped with his dark saber/saber staff

Force, sabers, all out

This Emperor Malgus?

Team 1, then.

I think the Sith take a majority 6-7/10

The Jedi might be more skilled and an argument can be made for them (which I'm sure some users will make), but in terms of force ability the Sith are superior somewhat.

Team 2, Malgus complements Mace's style nicely.

He isn't receiving a substantial amp if any at all. He's alright more skilled, faster, and of comparable power to Malgus to win. He'd beat him if they fought 1 v 1.

Originally posted by carthage
He isn't receiving a substantial amp if any at all.

How vapaad works is literally posted everyday and people have yet to grasp the concept.

Originally posted by Based
How vapaad works is literally posted everyday and people have yet to grasp the concept.

It channels his darkness, and again it never worked against Bulq, Ventress, Maul, or any darksider he fought.

Prove otherwise.

Originally posted by carthage
It channels his darkness, and again it never worked against Bulq, Ventress, Maul, or any darksider he fought.

Prove otherwise.
Ventress ran like a ***** after she admitted to not being a match for him, Bulq also knew Vaapad and still lost, and Maul fought him briefly before mandos interrupted the fight.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ventress ran like a ***** after she admitted to not being a match for him, Bulq also knew Vaapad and still lost, and Maul fought him briefly before mandos interrupted the fight.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ventress ran like a ***** after she admitted to not being a match for him, Bulq also knew Vaapad and still lost, and Maul fought him briefly before mandos interrupted the fight.

He wasn't amped with Bulq, and circumstances still don't disprove that Vaapad didn't work to overpower either of them.

Regardless Mace still defeats either of these guy due to superior skill alone.

Says who?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ventress ran like a ***** after she admitted to not being a match for him, Bulq also knew Vaapad and still lost, and Maul fought him briefly before mandos interrupted the fight.

Also with regards to fighting Ventress, Mace had to exert himself as he has had to do with many fights including Bulq and Grievous



Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 108

Vaapad didnt help him in that fight either.

Team 1. Malgus > Windu ; Maul > Obi-Wan

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Team 1. Malgus > Windu

This is a close one. Depends on how well Kenobi would do against SOD Maul.

Originally posted by Sinious
This is a close one. Depends on how well Kenobi would do against SOD Maul.
He gets casually TK'd.

Nah. RotS Kenobi beats any Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah. RotS Kenobi beats any Maul.


Based on what?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Based on what?

He's better.

Originally posted by Trocity
He's better.
Why exactly?

Maul beats Kenobi

Mace beats Malgus, then Maul.

Team 2.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul beats Kenobi

Mace beats Malgus, then Maul.

Team 2.
lol

Mace>Malgus, Kenobi>Maul

Team 2.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul beats Kenobi

Mace beats Malgus, then Maul.

Team 2.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
lol

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He gets casually TK'd.

I doubt it.

Originally posted by Sinious
I doubt it.
While I'm sure Kenobi improved, it didn't really stop Maul before. He wasn't even trying.

That was on a planet literally called "Nexus" though.

How strong of a Dark Side nexus is Florrum?

You mean where he and Savage fled like bitches from Kenobi?

He only left because Savage was/is a shit duelist. Still, he TK'd Kenobi with a flick of the wrist. Then he TK'd them again while they left.

And Kenobi got right back up and chased them like a wolf after sheep. Yes, such TK ownage.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Still, he TK'd Kenobi with a flick of the wrist. Then he TK'd them again while they left.

Why doesn't he just throw him around like a ragdoll all the time then if it's so easy he doesn't have to try?

Originally posted by ares834
And Kenobi got right back up and chased them like a wolf after sheep. Yes, such TK ownage.
Wut? Both times took him a relatively large amount of time to stand up.

Originally posted by Trocity
Why doesn't he just throw him around like a ragdoll all the time then if it's so easy he doesn't have to try?
Why didn't Obi-Wan or Maul just TK Viszla as soon as they could? Why did Obi-Wan watch a man jump off a roof when he could have stopped him or slowed his fall? Why does every chase scene happen?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wut? Both times took him a relatively large amount of time to stand up.

Yes a few seconds... And in the first case he was simply waiting for the bros to make their move. Anyway, the idea that Maul can casually own Kenobi with TK is laughable. In the first case, Kenobi is otherwise also preoccupied with engaging Savage and the throw hardly fazes Kenobi. And the second time it's a force push...

I'm not sure where you're going with that. You claimed he can TK Kenobi "casually", that he "doesn't even have to try."

So why doesn't he? The answer is, because he can't. He can TK him when certain opportunities present themselves but as far as just casually TKing him whenever he feels like it...

It's not like the duel between the brothers and Sidious, where Sidious can pretty clearly TK as he pleases but instead chooses to have some fun. Maul hates Kenobi for what he did to him in TPM. I think if he could just ragdoll him as he pleases, he would, instead of trying to double team him with his brother.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How strong of a Dark Side nexus is Florrum?

We are clearly talking about different instances.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He only left because Savage was/is a shit duelist. Still, he TK'd Kenobi with a flick of the wrist. Then he TK'd them again while they left.


Savage is a decent duelist. He's skilled and fast enough to hold his own against council members. His main advantage, though, comes from his brute strength.

Everything else, I agree with you. Maul has dominated Kenobi more times than not. That fight in the cave was circumstantial, with Maul being the one who ended it when he decided to. Savage is a bit sloppy and the environment they were fighting in gave Kenobi the opportunity to take advantage of Savage's weakness as a duelist. As for Maul, he has never intended on killing Kenobi right away. We've never seen Maul fully unleash himself on Kenobi, nor has Kenobi faced CW Maul with his pair of more humanoid legs. The legs Talzin gave Maul, Maul seemed a bit sloppy himself with them.

@Ares, Maul and Savage were running before Kenobi came out of the cave.

@Trocity, Maul has thrown Kenobi around pretty consistently.

@NewGuy, What are you talking about? When Maul casually force choked Kenobi while fighting off another jedi? I haven't read the entire comic, just strips, but I did question Silver2467 about the planet being a DS nexus, and he told me the reason the area was strong with the dark side was due to the presence of Maul and Savage, otherwise the planet wasn't even populated by force users, nor was there any reason for the place to be strong with the dark side until the arrival of Maul and Savage. I took it as a similar case when Anakin and Kenobi stated that they sensed Mustafar being strong with the dark side on account of the holographic presence of Sidious (unknown to them). Do you mind posting the scan stating it was a nexus?

Originally posted by ares834
Yes a few seconds... And in the first case he was simply waiting for the bros to make their move.

That doesn't make any sense. And in duels that hardly last minutes, every second is vital.

Except he's done it several times.

He gets slammed into the wall falls down, and tak

Which is TK.
Originally posted by Trocity

So why doesn't he?
Why doesn't everyone? Because it's a story and makes shitty plot.

@S66: Yes well, he was obviously the wink link of the team. Perhaps second would make more sense.

Sure. And they were running because Kebobi just handed them their asses.

What ? Obi-Wan is not beating Maul. He only beat Savage in Florrum and that was only 'one-time'

Obi-Wan can't even defeat Savage that ease

WmBL_RF1DNk

Kenobi also failed to save Adi Gallia from Savage,

HPUHMpCqRmg

Like I said, that was only one time thing, and Maul underestimated Kenobi in there,
''Surrender, we are two, and you are no match for us both...''

(just like he did in TPM) that is why Kenobi managed to defeat Savage.

He never defeated Maul.

Example ? Here is ;

p1fSg_mCId8

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That doesn't make any sense. And in duels that hardly last minutes, every second is vital.

Except he's done it several times.

He gets slammed into the wall falls down, and tak

Which is TK.

Makes plenty of sense. The first time Kenobi was sitting their watching then make their attack before moving.

Only time he has ever done it is on a place specifically mentioned to be strong in the dark side. Otherwise, never.

Sure, and it doesn't mean he is superior (inferior firce users often send their superiors flying with a push). And certainly not to the extend that he could rag doll him at will.

RotS Kenobi is also superior to any version who faced Maul, remember.

Originally posted by ares834
Mace>Malgus, Kenobi>Maul

Team 2.
Yup.

Originally posted by Nephthys
RotS Kenobi is also superior to any version who faced Maul, remember.

Originally posted by Nephthys
RotS Kenobi is also superior to any version who faced Maul, remember.

He faced Maul towards the end of TCW. So no.

If we're just going to assume Kenobi improved since then without any evidence to suggest as much, then I'll just assume that SOD Maul > TCW Maul. Heck since Maul never even died I'll just assume ROTS Maul > SOD Maul.

Compare their fights with each other or against similar opponents. But don't give me that ROTS Kenobi > All other Kenobi's and Maul's just because he is.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. And they were running because Kebobi just handed them their asses.

Kind of like how Kenobi and Ventress Ran for their lives from Maul and Savage because they were getting handed their asses.

And Kenobi never handed Maul his ass anyway. Kicking him back without injuring him at all, without flooring him even once and without disarming him of his weapon. ... is not handing him his ass. Not by a long shot.

On the other hand Maul's Force push actually did Floor Kenobi and actually did disarm him. So even in the fight where you're claiming "Kenobi kicked Maul's ass" It was actually Maul who landed the more lethal blows on Kenobi than Vice Versa.

So it was nothing like (for instance) the time when Ventress fought off Kenobi and Skywalker KOing Kenobi within seconds and Force choking then both at the end. Now that was an Ass Kicking!

Originally posted by ares834
Makes plenty of sense. The first time Kenobi was sitting their watching then make their attack before moving.

Not really. Kenobi was knocked down and he wanted to surprise them, not because he wanted to, but because he had to. The way you're wording it makes it seems like he had the advantage there, and he really did.

Because of Maul and Savage. Not to mention theses two feats you're continuously trying to ignore simply because they show how inferior Kenobi was at least there.

Kenobi controversially has never overpowered Maul once. Multiple occasions of getting your ass handed to you do not make you a superior Force user.

Except he has.

Welp it wasn't Kenobi running like a ***** on Floruum.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not really. Kenobi was knocked down and he wanted to surprise them, not because he wanted to, but because he had to. The way you're wording it makes it seems like he had the advantage there, and he really did.



Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because of Maul and Savage. Not to mention theses two feats you're continuously trying to ignore simply because they show how inferior Kenobi was at least there.

Ignore? Not at all. However, neither suggests he can rag doll Kenobi at will.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kenobi controversially has never overpowered Maul once. Multiple occasions of getting your ass handed to you do not make you a superior Force user.

Once was because Kenobi had his concentration split between two due lists and the other was by a force push that clearly caught him off guard. So yeah, once again not seeing anything suggesting he could tag doll him with the force.

I do believe Maul's force abilities are superior though. But that's mainly due to his superior feats in that regard rather than anything that happened in this duel.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except he has.

Nope. Only at a place strong in the dark side.

Also in the fight with Ventress, Kenobi uses the force to push Maul back knocking him onto a crate for a few seconds. That TK mastery yo.

Either of the Sith can take Kenobi out with TK as all of the examples listed have shown. Malgus applies TK even more brutally than Maul does, and given Kenobi's past run ins with darksiders it would do a number on him at the very least.

Originally posted by ares834
Ignore? Not at all. However, neither suggests he can rag doll Kenobi at will.

TK'd=/= ragdoll, at least not int he way I'm using it. Either way, we clearly see Kenobi being lifted, casually moved, and flung. Kenobi has never shown the best Force defense, but then again Kenobi only has the chance to fight powerhouses.

And without anything to support he can actually defend himself and with more evidence to the contrary, yeah I'm going to say Maul can TK him pretty easily.

With Kenobi having next to none against anyone without a fractured mindset and plenty of evidence to the contrary, I'm not surprised.

lol at dismissing Kenobi's because of "fractured mindset".

Originally posted by ares834
Welp it wasn't Kenobi running like a ***** on Floruum.

Maul ran because of Savage's injury not becaue he lost.

If not, he shouldn't able to knock out Obi-Wan with a powerful force blast.

l74FlbZnS3k

Just because you like Obi-Wan or you don't like Maul that doesn't change the fact. Maul is slightly faster, equally skilled and has much better TK than RotS Obi-Wan.

Malgus' maelstrom could take the win but beyond that I find it hard to see Mace and Kenobi lose this.

Do remember they have experience in fighting together, a lot of it as well, got to make a difference here.

Kenobi underrated... as usual.

If the Sith wont catch Kenobi off-guard with TK, they'll loose. If they will, Mace will be overhelmed by two opponents and wil die.

Originally posted by ares834
Welp it wasn't Kenobi running like a ***** on Floruum.

And it was Kenobi plus Ventress running like b****** from Maul and Opress in "Revenge."

The whole "Running" argument is lame in most situations. Sidious attempted to run from Yoda and yet ended up winning.

It's a simply a tactical retreat seen as the favourable option in a given scenario so frankly a pretty lazy argument to use.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


@NewGuy, What are you talking about? When Maul casually force choked Kenobi while fighting off another jedi? I haven't read the entire comic, just strips, but I did question Silver2467 about the planet being a DS nexus, and he told me the reason the area was strong with the dark side was due to the presence of Maul and Savage, otherwise the planet wasn't even populated by force users, nor was there any reason for the place to be strong with the dark side until the arrival of Maul and Savage. I took it as a similar case when Anakin and Kenobi stated that they sensed Mustafar being strong with the dark side on account of the holographic presence of Sidious (unknown to them). Do you mind posting the scan stating it was a nexus?

After rereading the comic this makes the most sense for that scenario. The Jedi were hunting the Sith and so the Jedi mentioning "the dark side is strong here" was their clue that they were on the right track.

Aside from that line no mention was made of that planet having any relation to the dark side whatsoever.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it was Kenobi plus Ventress running like b****** from Maul and Opress in "Revenge."

After Kenobi had already been knocked out and beaten before the fight, sure. And with Ventress only able to use one lightsaber.

Weren't you the one that said Revan could get over years of torture and dopage because he has advanced healing? Why not Obi-Wan?

Obi-Wan didn't have time to do that. And he's never demonstrated a talent for quickly healing himself like Revan has.

Granted he didn't have a large amount of time, Obi-Wan usually performs that well against Maul. I can accept he hasn't been shown he's adapt at healing, however.

Usually other than that one time you mean?

Well not counting TPM, he didn't really do that well on Florrum either. He had to take advantage of Savage's leg defenses.

Maul kinda ragdolled Kenobi on florrum, he just wanted to make Kenobi's death slow and painful.

People seem to forget that every time they fought, it was the opposite of usual. Kenobi didn't want to question him, redeem him, he wanted him dead for Qui-Gon and to prevent further loss of life. Maul wanted to keep Kenobi alive, he only looked to incapacitate.

If you look carefully there are plenty of opportunities where Maul could finish Kenobi in their duels, he just chooses not to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
After Kenobi had already been knocked out and beaten before the fight, sure. And with Ventress only able to use one lightsaber.

LOL And like Maul was in such good shape, just getting new legs and it being his first fight in 10+years. How good would his healing have to be? And was Maul using his normal Lightsaber? Don't lowball when you feel like it now.

Plus Opress works best in a bigger environment where he can use his TK.

That argument works both ways so don't pick and choose feats as you like.

Having new super-strong robot legs is considerably less of a disadvantage than a concussion, bro. And Maul is just as adept with a single blade as he is with a double. Plus Maul Dun Moch'ed him halfway through the fight.

Not really. A small environment also means that Ventress can't easily evade his superior strength and has to take him on head-on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Having new super-strong robot legs is considerably less of a disadvantage than a concussion, bro. And Maul is just as adept with a single blade as he is with a double. Plus Maul Dun Moch'ed him halfway through the fight.

Not really. A small environment also means that Ventress can't easily evade his superior strength and has to take him on head-on.

Lol at super strong legs being some sort of mega advantage for a guy who just got them, could hardly run in them a day earlier and hasn't had a lightsaber fight in over a decade.

Considering Ventress consistently fights off multiple opponents with dual lightsabers is safe to say she can handle a single opponent with a single lightsaber just fine.

Ventress had enough room to dodge. It wasn't THAT tight a space. But Opress' s force waves would likely hit Maul too. That was a particular disadvantage to Opress in the cave against Obi-Wan.

As for all this bull lowballing going on about Obi-Wan being knocked out earlier, how was he defeated in the first place to get captured? Oh that's right, Opress defeated him on his own. The same Opress that Maul completely embarasses.

''Even their combined might was not enough to defeat the brothers...''

http://i.hizliresim.com/78P4XL.jpg

- Taken from ; The Sith Hunters

What exactly did Kenobi need to be healed of? He had a black eye, which I've never known to have a major effect on one's performance in a fight.

As far as having a concussion, he was knocked out and recovered quickly with no other signs of being concussed. Meanwhile there were obvious signs of Maul's disadvantages during that fight, such as his awkwardness and clumsiness with his new pair of bulky legs.

Originally posted by Selenial
If you look carefully there are plenty of opportunities where Maul could finish Kenobi in their duels, he just chooses not to.

Over analyzing. You can do so for Kenobi as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for all this bull lowballing going on about Obi-Wan being knocked out earlier, how was he defeated in the first place to get captured? Oh that's right, Opress defeated him on his own. The same Opress that Maul completely embarasses.

Sure when he was clearly completely caught off guard.

Originally posted by Marco1907
''Even their combined might was not enough to defeat the brothers...''

And the combined might of the bros was not enough to defeat Kenobi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol at super strong legs being some sort of mega advantage for a guy who just got them, could hardly run in them a day earlier and hasn't had a lightsaber fight in over a decade.

Considering Ventress consistently fights off multiple opponents with dual lightsabers is safe to say she can handle a single opponent with a single lightsaber just fine.

Ventress had enough room to dodge. It wasn't THAT tight a space. But Opress' s force waves would likely hit Maul too. That was a particular disadvantage to Opress in the cave against Obi-Wan.

As for all this bull lowballing going on about Obi-Wan being knocked out earlier, how was he defeated in the first place to get captured? Oh that's right, Opress defeated him on his own. The same Opress that Maul completely embarasses.

Originally posted by ares834




Sure when he was clearly completely caught off guard.


Well he was surprised, sure, but let's not exaggerate saying he was caught "completely off guard." He does see Opress and recognize him before Opress attacks him. He was also outright told by Windu that he would be walking into a trap.

But yeah sure, he was taken by surprise, but let's not forget this was Opress, Maul's clear inferior. And let's also not forget this was the second or third time Kenobi failed to overpower Opress.



Originally posted by ares834
And the combined might of the bros was not enough to defeat Kenobi.




And yet Kenobi couldn't defeat Maul in their one on one in the same damn episode.


A fight which Maul wasn't even prepared for btw, whilst Kenobi was the one hunting Maul.

Originally posted by ares834



And the combined might of the bros was not enough to defeat Kenobi.



Yeah sure...

kC9JbW7sc4Y

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah sure...

kC9JbW7sc4Y


To be fair he had a concussion there.

This is much better proof Imho:

BNmbtaIZHqo

At 0:45 and then again and then again from 5:25.



And then of course there's Maul vs Kenobi 1 on 1 here from 0:48 to 1:58:

aE_CVWMWK74

which was pretty even, despite Maul not being ready yet, whilst Kenobi was completely focused and ready this time.


So if Kenobi can't defeat Maul on his own fighting for well over a minute, in a fight Kenobi was completely prepared and focused for but Maul still wasn't in prime shape, then it's damn well common sense Kenobi would get destroyed by both brothers under normal circumstances 10/10.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol at super strong legs being some sort of mega advantage for a guy who just got them, could hardly run in them a day earlier and hasn't had a lightsaber fight in over a decade.

Considering Ventress consistently fights off multiple opponents with dual lightsabers is safe to say she can handle a single opponent with a single lightsaber just fine.

Ventress had enough room to dodge. It wasn't THAT tight a space. But Opress' s force waves would likely hit Maul too. That was a particular disadvantage to Opress in the cave against Obi-Wan.

As for all this bull lowballing going on about Obi-Wan being knocked out earlier, how was he defeated in the first place to get captured? Oh that's right, Opress defeated him on his own. The same Opress that Maul completely embarasses.

I didn't say it was an advantage, just that it was less of a disadvantage than being knocked out twice and smacked around. They let him kick Obi-Wan around quite a bit iirc. And they were equal until Maul explicitly unbalanced him by taunting him about Qui-Gon.

Er, what? Her main style is double-bladed or dual blades. She's likely not as good with a single lightsaber as she would be with both her sabers.

It was pretty tight, she had to jump or climb over him or on top of boxes to get away from him a lot of the time. And Maul and Kenobiu jump away to the upper level half-way through the fight, if Savage could bring his Force waves to bear he had the opportunity. Instead she pushes him back with the Force at one point, and Obi-Wan Force-pwns Maul too.

He was ambushed, and off-guard. It was clear he wasn't expecting Opress to be there and was trying to fight him with Maul behind him. When Savage does "beat" him, its as Obi-Wan is checking to make sure Maul isn't about to backstab him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say it was an advantage, just that it was less of a disadvantage than being knocked out twice and smacked around..


Very very debatable. They both faced disadvantages. Although Maul's seems greater to me, but either way those disadvantages can't be quantified in numbers like say Kenobi had a 5/10 disadvantage whilst Maul had a 7/10.

But Maul won that one.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, what? Her main style is double-bladed or dual blades. She's likely not as good with a single lightsaber as she would be with both her sabers.


What? That's Maul's main style as well (Pre-TCW). It was his chosen style and thereby the style he was most adept in. But yeah he can handle a Single Saber as well just fine.

Whereas Ventress CONSISTENTLY fights off BOTH Obi-Wan and Anakin with 1 Lightsaber each. Because she fights them together. So your being ridiculous saying she can't fight well against a SINGLE Opponent with a SINGLE Lightsaber.


Originally posted by Nephthys
It was pretty tight, she had to jump or climb over him or on top of boxes to get away from him a lot of the time. And Maul and Kenobiu jump away to the upper level half-way through the fight, if Savage could bring his Force waves to bear he had the opportunity. Instead she pushes him back with the Force at one point, and Obi-Wan Force-pwns Maul too..


Ventress and Obi-Wan both admitted they were losing that fight. She wasn't KO'd before the fight or taken by surprise, so stop making excuses for her.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He was ambushed, and off-guard. It was clear he wasn't expecting Opress to be there and was trying to fight him with Maul behind him. When Savage does "beat" him, its as Obi-Wan is checking to make sure Maul isn't about to backstab him.

So because he wasn't expecting Opress to be there is enough reason to lose a fight that badly?

Oh so Obi-Wan "looking at where Maul is" costs him the fight against Opress? That's the 3rd time Kenobi failed to overpower Opress. And the first 2 times he had Anakin helping him, so Opress had to do more that just "look" at another opponent.


I understand that Obi-Wan was taken by surprise, but it wasn't exactly a "sucker punch" and again, this is against an Opponent who Maul completely embarrasses, with no difficulty whatsoever. Kenobi also consistently struggles against Ventress who was outmatched by Opress. And Kenobi has never actually put Maul down in direct combat since Maul's revival. And Maul is still alive so has just as much room to improve between TCW and ROTS as Kenobi does.

So your statement of: "No version of Maul being able to handle ROTS Kenobi", is completely baseless. I mean we are talking about the guy that got Force tooled by Count Dooku, knowing full well Maul is a bit of a TK Beast himself. And frankly I've not even seen evidence to give Kenobi a vast majority over Maul even in a Saber only match.

These developments amuse me. POWER, you've done a total 180 in the past 6 months on Maul/Kenobi. I am pleased by your edification.

Lesson learned: always defer to my judgment.

That's lame sense. Kenobi is a Soresu practitioner, judging by how quickly he can defeat someone will never work. His advantages are his defensive skills that allow to survive, not offensive skills that allow to defeat someone quickly.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's lame sense. Kenobi is a Soresu practitioner, judging by how quickly he can defeat someone will never work. His advantages are his defensive skills that allow to survive, not offensive skills that allow to defeat someone quickly.


Yes but if he's occupied defending against Just Maul for over a minute, with both of them struggling (according to the Novel at least) then I really don't see how he has a chance when you add in Opress. Especially with the Brothers combined TK involved which Soresu has no defense against.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
These developments amuse me. POWER, you've done a total 180 in the past 6 months on Maul/Kenobi. I am pleased by your edification.

Lesson learned: always defer to my judgment.


You do realize I haven't actually said Maul beats Kenobi right? Besides I've always held Maul can beat Kenobi with TK involved.

But yes I see Maul and Kenobi's Saber prowess being much closer now than I did a Year ago (not 6 months).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
These developments amuse me. POWER, you've done a total 180 in the past 6 months on Maul/Kenobi. I am pleased by your edification.

Lesson learned: always defer to my judgment.


What do you think? I know you realize that Kenobi's fight with the bros was a one-off fight and very circumstantial, but who do you think would win in a one on one fight under normal circumstances between Obi Wan and Maul?

Me, personally, I think Maul would take a pretty solid victory if he is aiming to kill and fully unleashes himself on Kenobi. Maybe not as easily as Dooku, but pretty solidly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but if he's occupied defending against Just Maul for over a minute, with both of them struggling (according to the Novel at least) then I really don't see how he has a chance when you add in Opress. Especially with the Brothers TK involved which Soresu has no defense against.

Strictly saber speaking Kenobi can fight both Opress and Maul simultaneously - that's realization of his exceptional defensive skills. I doubt Maul would be able to survive two opponents of similar caliber like Kenobi did. I was complaining only about sabers part.

As of TK, yes, that's what probably will grant them win 10/10. I believe that Kenobi can defend their TK but as fight progresses he will eventually get tired to the point that he will be unable to defend against their TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
Strictly saber speaking Kenobi can fight both Opress and Maul simultaneously - that's realization of his exceptional defensive skills. I doubt Maul would be able to survive two opponents of similar caliber like Kenobi did. I was complaining only about sabers part.

As of TK, yes, that's what probably will grant them win 10/10. I believe that Kenobi can defend their TK but as fight progresses he will eventually get tired to the point that he will be unable to defend against their TK.




I was only talking about All -Out, and with standard weapons.

As far as I can see no one's split this discussion into Sabers only with Kenobi going all Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's lame sense. Kenobi is a Soresu practitioner, judging by how quickly he can defeat someone will never work. His advantages are his defensive skills that allow to survive, not offensive skills that allow to defeat someone quickly.


This doesn't make any sense. You're not going to purposely draw out a fight just because you're a defensive fighter.


@DP, I think that's what Temp is talking about. You used to place Kenobi on a similar level to Dooku and even Sidious in regards to saber dueling based on his performance against the bros in the cave.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66



@DP, I think that's what Temp is talking about. You used to place Kenobi on a similar level to Dooku and even Sidious in regards to saber dueling based on his performance against the bros in the cave.


I know but I always gave Maul a shot in an all out. And so far no one's discussed Sabers only here.

Also since then I've seen Dooku beating Kenobi pretty solidly without TK in TCW Season 6.

Originally posted by Arhael
I doubt Maul would be able to survive two opponents of similar caliber like Kenobi did. I was complaining only about sabers part.


Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once. In her last fight against them, she actually took Kenobi out within the first few seconds.

Explain that to me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also since then I've seen Dooku beating Kenobi pretty solidly without TK in TCW Season 6.
Imho, it's because Kenobi was attacking, while Dooku defending. When he fights offensively, he makes mistakes. I really would like to see scenario, where Dooku would be attacking Kenobi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once. In her last fight against them, she actually took Kenobi out within the first few seconds.

Explain that to me.
Kenobi does not have good offensive skill. Every time he plays offensive game, opponents take advantage of it.

He attacked Ventress, got kicked. He attacked Maul, got kicked. Attacked Dooku, got kicked. Attacked Grievous, got kicked. It's rather consistent.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know but I always gave Maul a shot in an all out. And so far no one's discussed Sabers only here.

Also since then I've seen Dooku beating Kenobi pretty solidly without TK in TCW Season 6.


Everyone's opinion can change so I don't hold that against you.

Out of curiosity though, had Dooku not have beaten the shit out of Kenobi in season 6, would you still place Kenobi on his level in regards to saber prowess?

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi does not have good offensive skill. Every time he plays offensive game, opponents take advantage of it.

He attacked Ventress, got kicked. He attacked Maul, got kicked. Attacked Dooku, got kicked. Attacked Grievous, got kicked. It's rather consistent.


The novel actually indicates that Kenobi was fighting offensively during his fight against the bros in the cave.

Regardless, that's a pretty lame excuse. Kenobi isn't that horrible of a fighter. The whole point of being good in defense while aiming to defeat your opponent, would be your ability to counterattack, unless there is a huge gap between you and your opponent and you're being completely overwhelmed/overpowered. You're acting as if Kenobi only knows how to block, and if that's the case then he should never be able to win a duel.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Everyone's opinion can change so I don't hold that against you.

Out of curiosity though, had Dooku not have beaten the shit out of Kenobi in season 6, would you still place Kenobi on his level in regards to saber prowess?


No because I calmed down with the Kenobi >> Maul in Sabers quite a while ago. Well before Season 6.

But before seeing that S6 fight I would have placed Kenobi under Dooku but only by a small amount. Or maybe Dooku >/= Kenobi in Sabers. Because I didn't think there would be much of a gap between Dooku and Maul in Sabers. And Kenobi has some impressive feats in ROTS against Grievous and Sith Anakin. Then the Maul/Opress cave feat was probably better than both those ROTS feats. Plus there's all his hype as The Master of Soresu and what not.

Now after Season 6 I place Dooku solidly above both Maul and Kenobi. Because I just can't put Maul > Kenobi in Sabers (and Maul's one of my favorite characters), simply because he's struggled against Kenobi too much too often. And that's where I still give Kenobi a lot of credit. To be a peer of Maul and capable of battering Opress like that, I do still place Kenobi above the vast majority of the Council Members.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No because I calmed down with the Kenobi >> Maul in Sabers quite a while ago. Well before Season 6.

But before seeing that S6 fight I would have placed Kenobi under Dooku but only by a small amount. Or maybe Dooku >/= Kenobi in Sabers. Because I didn't think there would be much of a gap between Dooku and Maul in Sabers. And Kenobi has some impressive feats in ROTS against Grievous and Sith Anakin. Then the Maul/Opress cave feat was probably better than both those ROTS feats. Plus there's all his hype as The Master of Soresu and what not.

Now after Season 6 I place Dooku solidly above both Maul and Kenobi. Because I just can't put Maul > Kenobi in Sabers (and Maul's one of my favorite characters), simply because he's struggled against Kenobi too much too often. And that's where I still give Kenobi a lot of credit. To be a peer of Maul and capable of battering Opress like that, I do still place Kenobi above the vast majority of the Council Members.


Ah, I see.

I disagree with a lot in your post, but don't feel like getting into it at the moment, so perhaps another time. Besides, I think you and I have already debated it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel actually indicates that Kenobi was fighting offensively during his fight against the bros in the cave.
The novel is retconned by TCW, where he is clearly defending.


If it is a lame excuse, then explain. How comes Dooku struggles against Opress/Ventress duo, even gets disarmed, while heavily relying on Force attacks, while Kenobi fares better against more powerful Maul/Opress duo without luxury of using Force attacks?


Kenobi is indeed not a horrible fighter. He's got exceptional defensive skills but mediocre offensive skills. Every fighter has advantages and disadvantages. Kenobi realizes his advantages, when he is playing defensive game but does lousy job, when he is required to fight offensively.

You are correct about defending and counterattacking. However, it doesn't apply, when he initiates attacks himself. In order to attack you need to close in to your opponent, which puts you off-balance. When you defend, your posture is solid, which allows you to block attack and immediately respond with a kick.

At 2:30:
m1BqZzIWSW0
You see what happens when Kenobi attacks. Same thing happened, when he and Anakin fought Dooku. Imitated one attack, got kicked, initiated another attack - got hip-thrown.

Indeed, this style rarely gives Kenobi victory, which is lame. But that's how it is. You know what Soresu is about, should I dig up description for you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Very very debatable. They both faced disadvantages. Although Maul's seems greater to me, but either way those disadvantages can't be quantified in numbers like say Kenobi had a 5/10 disadvantage whilst Maul had a 7/10.

But Maul won that one.

Maul's unfamiliarity is off-set by his legs being super-strong and cybernetic. Obi-Wan's disadvantage wasn't mitigated like that.

Only through Dun Moch.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? That's Maul's main style as well (Pre-TCW). It was his chosen style and thereby the style he was most adept in. But yeah he can handle a Single Saber as well just fine.

Whereas Ventress CONSISTENTLY fights off BOTH Obi-Wan and Anakin with 1 Lightsaber each. Because she fights them together. So your being ridiculous saying she can't fight well against a SINGLE Opponent with a SINGLE Lightsaber.

Maul was highly adept at using a single lightsaber though. It was his original choice in his training and he seemed to favor it enough that he didn't bother replacing it with a double after his return. Ventress has always favored dual-blades.

No, she doesn't fight them with one lightsaber each, she uses dual/double-bladed lightsabers to fight them both at the same time. It's not the same thing. You're being ridiculous if you can't see how she would be disadvantaged using a lightsaber style she doesn't normally use.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress and Obi-Wan both admitted they were losing that fight. She wasn't KO'd before the fight or taken by surprise, so stop making excuses for her.

That Ventress was losing to Opress hardly matters in this thread anyway. So lets agree to disagree and move on. Although she didn't have much trouble with holding off Maul, I must say.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So because he wasn't expecting Opress to be there is enough reason to lose a fight that badly?

Opress is an opponent you need to be prepared to fight against. His great strength is such that unless you're ready for it you can be overwhelmed, like Dooku. Obi-Wan was also boxed in by Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh so Obi-Wan "looking at where Maul is" costs him the fight against Opress? That's the 3rd time Kenobi failed to overpower Opress. And the first 2 times he had Anakin helping him, so Opress had to do more that just "look" at another opponent.

Ok so Obi-Wan is weaker than Savage Opress now, is he? How interesting.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I understand that Obi-Wan was taken by surprise, but it wasn't exactly a "sucker punch" and again, this is against an Opponent who Maul completely embarrasses, with no difficulty whatsoever. Kenobi also consistently struggles against Ventress who was outmatched by Opress. And Kenobi has never actually put Maul down in direct combat since Maul's revival. And Maul is still alive so has just as much room to improve between TCW and ROTS as Kenobi does.

So your statement of: "No version of Maul being able to handle ROTS Kenobi", is completely baseless. I mean we are talking about the guy that got Force tooled by Count Dooku, knowing full well Maul is a bit of a TK Beast himself. And frankly I've not even seen evidence to give Kenobi a vast majority over Maul even in a Saber only match.

Yeah, you're right. Maul can clearly embarrass Obi-Wan like he did with Opress oh no wait Obi-Wan completely embarrassed both of them at the same time. Ventress also had no problems fighting Maul and wasn't embarrassed. Just because Obi-Wan hasn't killed him doesn't mean he can't. Both have been forced to run away from the other once. But unlike Maul, Obi-Wan is known to have continually improved. By RotS he'd better than Maul.

Dooku is superior to Maul, so that hardly suggests Maul can replicate that. And I've never said that Obi-Wan is vastly better, just that he is better. When Obi-Wan was fighting with a clear head and in it to win it he tooled Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by Arhael
The novel is retconned by TCW, where he is clearly defending.


If it is a lame excuse, then explain. How comes Dooku struggles against Opress/Ventress duo, even gets disarmed, while heavily relying on Force attacks, while Kenobi fares better against more powerful Maul/Opress duo without luxury of using Force attacks?


Kenobi is indeed not a horrible fighter. He's got exceptional defensive skills but mediocre offensive skills. Every fighter has advantages and disadvantages. Kenobi realizes his advantages, when he is playing defensive game but does lousy job, when he is required to fight offensively.

You are correct about defending and counterattacking. However, it doesn't apply, when he initiates attacks himself. In order to attack you need to close in to your opponent, which puts you off-balance. When you defend, your posture is solid, which allows you to block attack and immediately respond with a kick.

At 2:30:
m1BqZzIWSW0
You see what happens when Kenobi attacks. Same thing happened, when he and Anakin fought Dooku. Imitated one attack, got kicked, initiated another attack - got hip-thrown.

Indeed, this style rarely gives Kenobi victory, which is lame. But that's how it is. You know what Soresu is about, should I dig up description for you?


Kenobi being a soresu master and preferring it over any other style doesn't mean he is restricted to it. Any skilled saber duelist should not be restricted to his form.

The novel was not retconned by the series. The episode clearly shows Kenobi fighting far more aggressive than usual, as he was constantly attacking in order to keep both opponents separated.

Dooku struggled against an inferior duo because he was seemingly taken by surprise by Savage's strength and clearly viewed it as a threat throughout the rest of the fight, so instead of risking being tired out by defending against Savage's brute strength, he relied on heavy force usage. Not to mention that Ventress and Savage were aiming and determined to kill Dooku, whereas the bros were aiming to capture Kenobi, which makes a huge difference. However, I don't feel like getting into a debate about that, as you're not someone willing to concede to something so obvious. Dooku also wasn't underestimated as Kenobi was, and has proven that neither Ventress nor Savage are a match for him one on one, whereas Kenobi has been beaten by both bros one on one.

I think you're just trying to lowball Kenobi's opponent's good performances against him, which you consider as being consistent, while trying to come up with tons of excuses for Kenobi being on the losing end at times to those opponents, instead of just accepting that Kenobi's opponents are just that good.

Originally posted by ares834
Over analyzing. You can do so for Kenobi as well.


No, I'm really not.

Quite blatantly trolling here

Still want Kenobi to be Maul level one day so he can kill him, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul was highly adept at using a single lightsaber though. It was his original choice in his training and he seemed to favor it enough that he didn't bother replacing it with a double after his return. Ventress has always favored dual-blades.


Or he didn't "bother" replacing it with a Double Bladed Saber because you don't just buy Sabers at your corner shop. But he showed in his final fight with Sidious his Jar Kai skills are still better than his single blade fencing skills.



Originally posted by Nephthys
No, she doesn't fight them with one lightsaber each, she uses dual/double-bladed lightsabers to fight them both at the same time. It's not the same thing. You're being ridiculous if you can't see how she would be disadvantaged using a lightsaber style she doesn't normally use.


Because she uses 2 Lightsabers to fight off Multiple Opponents at the same time. And your right it's not exactly the same thing as fighting one opponent with a Single Saber, because it's actually HARDER.

She consistently fights 2 Jedi simultaneously with one sword each, having to concentrate on 2 Opponents. So imagine how much easier it is to only concentrate on a Single opponent with a Single lightsaber.




Originally posted by Nephthys
That Ventress was losing to Opress hardly matters in this thread anyway. So lets agree to disagree and move on. Although she didn't have much trouble with holding off Maul, I must say.


Not surprising given that was Maul's first Lightsaber fight in 10+years. But ok with the rest.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Opress is an opponent you need to be prepared to fight against. His great strength is such that unless you're ready for it you can be overwhelmed, like Dooku. Obi-Wan was also boxed in by Maul.


Dooku tried blocking Opress with 1 arm, and was only disarmed when he hit the wall behind him. But it's not like I'm even arguing Opress > Kenobi in Sabers. Because I'm not. I'm arguing this crazy assertion that TCW/SOD/ROTS Maul can't stand up to ROTS Kenobi.

Considering Kenobi's very inconsistent history, and Maul's TK Prowess, and the fact that Maul has never gone down to Kenobi in direct Saber combat anyway, that's quite a Bold statement to make to say the least.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, you're right. Maul can clearly embarrass Obi-Wan like he did with Opress oh no wait Obi-Wan completely embarrassed both of them at the same time. Ventress also had no problems fighting Maul and wasn't embarrassed. Just because Obi-Wan hasn't killed him doesn't mean he can't. Both have been forced to run away from the other once. But unlike Maul, Obi-Wan is known to have continually improved. By RotS he'd better than Maul.


When did Obi-Wan embarrass Maul? Exactly how did he embarrass him? Did he floor him, disarm him, KO him? Did he Force choke him. Actually wait, wasn't it Maul who did all those things to Kenobi? Didn't Ventress also do all those things to Kenobi while fighting off Skywalker? Hmm. If Kenobi "completely embarrassed" Maul, then I'd like to hear the words you describe to what Ventress did to Kenobi.

Ventress had no problem fighting a newly revived Maul whose not fought in 10+ years. And you know what, she still didn't look like his superior. Yes the same Ventress that Kenobi has always struggled against without being out of lightsaber combat for 10+years.

I'd like to see you Prove that Kenobi improved from Season 5/6 TCW to ROTS. I really would. I mean his S5 fight against the brothers is by far his best feat in case you hadn't noticed.

Again your argument that he's better by ROTS is baseless.




Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku is superior to Maul, so that hardly suggests Maul can replicate that. And I've never said that Obi-Wan is vastly better, just that he is better. When Obi-Wan was fighting with a clear head and in it to win it he tooled Maul and Savage.


No you said Maul can't beat Obi-Wan. That's suggesting he's Vastly better.

Even your saying Kenobi is better is Baseless. Throughout this conversation you've not actually pointed to anything, not even one thing that proves ROTS Kenobi is better, except to say that he is. You'll need to up your game pal, because right now you just look like your playing favorites (or least favorites as it may be in this case).

LOL Kenobi never "Tooled" Maul.