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vs.

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Force, sabers, all out

Battle takes place in the Jedi temple

I'd go with Horn. Tiin has the TK advantage, but Corran's illusions are likely to be effective, plus his long lightsaber and trickiness should give him an edge in dueling.

Horn.

Saesee.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd go with Horn. Tiin has the TK advantage, but Corran's illusions are likely to be effective, plus his long lightsaber and trickiness should give him an edge in dueling.
Tiin's TK is not even advantage since Horn can absorb it.

Since when can he absorb TK? It surely didn't work against Kyp's or Exar's.

"Kyp struck at me again through the Force, but I expected it this time. I relaxed and let the Force energy flow over and through me. I absorbed enough of it to let me create a shield that split the attack. The fact that I didn't end up being ground back against the wall surprised him."

"Even though I braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous Force blows were like light breezes compared with a full-out gale. I slammed back into the wall with a teeth-rattling impact. As my body absorbed Force energy and fed it back out, the shield I'd created grew in size. More importantly, my surprise and survival instinct opened me up to the Force and allowed it to flow into the shield."

Corran eventually got overpowered by Kyp but keep in mind that it was still relatively at the beginning of his training. Later on he improved his absorbing skills to the point that he could absorb detonator explosions.

That would be early in Kyp's training as well, though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That would be early in Kyp's training as well, though.
Kyp was progressing faster than everyone else due to his Force talent. Also, he was aided by Kun's spirit. Here is more complete text:

"I was hearing Kyp's voice through my ears, but the undertones were coming to me through the Force. We were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.

"I will, if you make it necessary."

An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features. "Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me."

Even though I braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous Force blows were like light breezes compared with a full-out gale. I slammed back into the wall with a teeth-rattling impact. As my body absorbed Force energy and fed it back out, the shield I'd created grew in size. More importantly, my surprise and survival instinct opened me up to the Force and allowed it to flow into the shield."

Regardless, Saese Tiin is miles behind Kyp, so doesn't matter.

Also, Kyp before training was in such environment that naturally made him use the Force, so he had better head start than anyone else.

Saesee's talent with the Force is considered amongst the best in the Order, and his raw telekinetic strength demonstratably rivals/eclipses Mace's. Kyp's raw Force strength has been argued to rival/eclipse Luke's, but at this point he had been training for a matter of weeks--Incomparable to Tiin's decades of practice.

Let's assume that Horn could handle Tiin's telekinetic strength in a similar manner, though, and move on from this point. Even if Horn has a method of defending himself against telekinesis, it seems that even moreso than other types of defense, it requires focus. If caught off guard with it in the midst of combat, it can still prove a significant disadvantage, especially because he does not have the capacity to attack telekinetically himself. It's Horn's primary weakness, and has never been comsidered in-universe to be as negligible as you're making it out to be.

I am uneducated concerning the magnitude of Corran's power over the mind--But Tiin himself is, by far, the Order's greatest telepath. I'm somehow doubtful that he will be so easily overcome in his strongest suit.

By the way, I think this is a really cool topic, Carthage. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but here we have two Council-level telepathy-specialists, both of which are amongst the most revered swordsmen of their time, and both of which were top-class pilots. Makes for an interesting battle.

I do wonder how Tiin'd react to Horn's trickery. He's a good fighter, but he's certainly never fought someone who'll suddenly double the length of their lightsaber, or indeed fight with a blade that long at all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I am uneducated concerning the magnitude of Corran's power over the mind--But Tiin himself is, by far, the Order's greatest telepath. I'm somehow doubtful that he will be so easily overcome in his strongest suit.

During Jedi Academy(the Novel trilogy, not the game) the apprentices are tasked with lifting heavy objects with the force. Several students complete the task, and then on Corran's turn he mind tricked all the other students and Luke into thinking he lifted the objects, but he didn't actually move them. Luke saw through it quickly, but this was during his apprentice years, way before becoming a Master.

Basically Horn's family was considered powerful in the force despite lack of TK for *very* good reason.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Saesee's talent with the Force is considered amongst the best in the Order, and his raw telekinetic strength demonstratably rivals/eclipses Mace's. Kyp's raw Force strength has been argued to rival/eclipse Luke's, but at this point he had been training for a matter of weeks--Incomparable to Tiin's decades of practice.
I seriously find it hard to consider Saesee Tiin a worthy opponent that "rivals/eclipses" Windu at anything considering that he staid like an idiot, when Sidious cut him down, while Windu defeated Sidious. Whatever feats he has, such an embarrassing death puts him leagues below majority of other characters.


Assume? I provided proof that Corran is capable of defending against TK. "If caught off guard" is not really an argument, any character can be caught off guard. Equally Saesee Tiin might get caught off guard by Corran's illusions, anything is possible in a fight. And Telepathy=/=Mind Tricks

By the way, Corran Horn actually can use TK, if he absorbs enough energy.

You claim that lack of TK puts him at disadvantage. After brawl with Kyp who was empowered by Kun at the time, and later Kun himself there is literally not a single example, where Corran was overpowered by anyone's TK. And he fought Force users on many occasions.

Give at least single impressive combat feat of Saesee Tiin that will help evaluate his prowess. So far Saesee has nothing on Corran.

Lmao? Stayed? Sidious blitzed him. Saesee was fast enough to appear in three places at once. Corran couldn't react to Palpatine's speed, and Tiin is faster than Corran. Also there is no shame in dying to the Emperor considering if you aren't Luke chances are that's what would happen to you

http://www.starwarsforums.org/gallery/Star-Wars/Saesee-Tiin-Feats/tiin-speed-feat-pic_118.htm

Originally posted by carthage
Lmao? Stayed? Sidious blitzed him. Saesee was fast enough to appear in three places at once. Corran couldn't react to Palpatine's speed, and Tiin is faster than Corran. Also there is no shame in dying to the Emperor considering if you aren't Luke chances are that's what would happen to you


First, you can't possibly know how Corran would react to Palpatine's speed. Assumptions don't hold.
Second, Corran was considered one of orders best combatants. Saesee Tiin wasn't and example with Sidious is a clear proof that he is miles below the top combatants.

What? Saesee wasn't considered one of the Order's best combatants?

I can give you a half dozen quotes describing him as one of the best combatants in history broski.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What? Saesee wasn't considered one of the Order's best combatants?

I can give you a half dozen quotes describing him as one of the best combatants in history broski.
Ok, then. Care to list any impressive feats? I can list plenty for Corran.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/saesee-tiin-respect-thread/78153/

Your turn.

On dueling-

"Most of the Jedi are deployed on distant worlds, but Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine: Agen Kolar, a Zabrak known among the Jedi to strike first and ask questions later; Saesee Tiin, a solitary Iktotchi who has never chosen a Padawan learner; and Kit Fisto, Nautolan master of Form 1 lightsaber technique, who distinguished himself on Geonosis and Mon Calamari, and who partnered Mace in battling Grievous on Coruscant."
--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Kit Fisto looks to have the most praise of the trio, but Tiin's solo bit is about his lack of padawan, so all we get is the general statement of 'a trio of celebrated swordsmasters.'

Being celebrated is good, but not exactly a ranking.



"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

A general statement about the group rather than any specifically.


And in his spar with Windu, it looked like a low-intensity spar (just standing face to face, no acrobatics or the like), and we only see a little of it, when they stop.



Now, featwise, his *telekinetics* are great, and throw in his talent for telepathy, and his being probably the second best pilot of the order (behind only Anakin- meaning he was likely the best for some time), and there's no question why he's noted for being one of the strongest in the force of the time, there's not too much about his dueling skills aside from him being celebrated, a general among the best, and him being good enough to be worth practicing with Windu, but that's not much in specific high praise. Not when Corran Horn is considered one of the very best and has great duels under his belt with Kyp Durron and Luke, and when the council wanted a strong warrior as leader after Hamner was out, he and Saba were considered the natural options based on his abilities.

You missed the one with Kenobi and Yoda.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/saesee-tiin-respect-thread/78153/

Your turn.

Silver looks like such a proper man, doesn't he?

Originally posted by Q99
Being celebrated is good, but not exactly a ranking.


I don't know of any source that give us solid rankings.

Obi-Wan claimed Saesee was one of the strongest Jedi ever produced by the Order, and he's been noted as one of the Order's most masterful/celebrated swordsmen more than once.



That's because neither of them are acrobatic fighters, and additionally, we don't see the end of the duel.

When Quinlan Vos and Anoon Bondara, both of whom have their fair share of feats and/or accolades, sparred with Mace, the latter calmly and effortlessly humbled them both. Conversely, in Saesee's duel, neither have an overwhelmingly apparent advantage, and Mace appears to be fighting much more seriously.

I'd say the closest comparison to Saesee's performance is Sora's.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Obi-Wan claimed Saesee was one of the strongest Jedi ever produced by the Order, and he's been noted as one of the Order's most masterful/celebrated swordsmen more than once.


Aside from statements like that, which Q doesn't seem to take as a ranking, so I assume he/she meant strict rankings as in leveling.

Its hard to rank him considering how he has no dueling feats, granted his sparring match with Mace indicates some parity between them. His force abilities are quite good but I still have him personally beneath Shaak Ti and Plo Koon due to lack of dueling feats

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You missed the one with Kenobi and Yoda.


That's because it wasn't in the link.






I mean, I don't need solid-solid, "This Jedi is number 6..." or something like that."


But stuff like "This one is even better than (known Jedi)," or "*The* best form X user in the order," or "There's no Jedi better in this situation."


We have him grouped among the best. That's definitely something, but hardly surprising considering he's a warrior in the council, and we don't know how big 'the best,' is, so it doesn't tell us too much more. Not nearly as much as a precise comparison or statement would. Heck, not as much as Fisto's statement.

Originally posted by Q99
That's because it wasn't in the link.


Now Obi-Wan did face him. 'Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself.'"

-ROTS



So basically, the same logic we're using except yours benefits Krayt and not Saesee.



That's a little rare. I think Mundi had something like that.



Yes, being a council-level swordsman puts you among the best the Order has to offer. Being among the best the Order has ever had to offer is not the same thing--It has a head and shoulders more weight behind it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Now Obi-Wan did face him. 'Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself.'"


Ok, a bit higher praise there




Hm? I don't think Krayt was called 'Best at/tied for best at X user in the order.' Krayt mostly gets by on feats, rather than praise.

I'm thinking Kenobi, Windu, Shaak Ti, Luminara, and Fisto get that kind of praise, as well as a few others.



True, and that quote is a better one.


The ones that say 'one of our best,' basically don't tell us anything that we don't already know. Best in history, on the flip side, is a rarer level.


How~ever, there is the matter that I don't think the 'best in history' really holds up with their feats.

What we know is Kenobi calls them that, but we don't know if he'd really know- I mean, it doesn't hurt that detailed records probably only go back 1k years.


I mean, are we to expect that of the best in history, two of them weren't able to block a single blow? Savage Opress did better.

No?



1.) Extremely different circumstances
2.) Sidious was intentionally prolonging the duel on Mandalore, and in this particular case was outright playing with his food.
3.) Savage himself is a powerful Sith that can handle heavyweights like Ventress and Koon.

Does that help?

Originally posted by NewGuy01

1.) Extremely different circumstances

Yes, there were only 2 of them.



Even when it was one-on-one and Sidious went for the kill it involved a bit more effort.





None of whom I'd put in a 'best in history' ranking.

Originally posted by Arhael
You claim that lack of TK puts him at disadvantage. After brawl with Kyp who was empowered by Kun at the time, and later Kun himself there is literally not a single example, where Corran was overpowered by anyone's TK. And he fought Force users on many occasions.

During Luke's exile in FOTJ a few Jedi Masters had a brief battle because of a heated discussion(because of something Daala did, I think) where Kyp pinned Corran to the wall via TK. I think it was Kyp, Kenth, and Corran involved. Keep in mind, at this point(while Luke was exiled), Kyp was the strongest Jedi in the order force-wise, so it's not like Corran was being pinned by some chump.

To say that Corran doesn't suffer from a disadvantage because of his lack of tk is something I have to disagree with. He does; he can still be moved, just like every other character, and he lacks the ability to be the initiator via the same tactic. It is a option he doesn't have. Corran compensates for it well by being a skilled combatant, because of his bloodline's ability to redirect energy, his dual-phase lightsaber and powerful force illusions.

I think Corran wins this fight, but let's not ignore reality just to make him look better.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
During Luke's exile in FOTJ a few Jedi Masters had a brief battle because of a heated discussion(because of something Daala did, I think) where Kyp pinned Corran to the wall via TK. I think it was Kyp, Kenth, and Corran involved. Keep in mind, at this point(while Luke was exiled), Kyp was the strongest Jedi in the order force-wise, so it's not like Corran was being pinned by some chump.

To say that Corran doesn't suffer from a disadvantage because of his lack of tk is something I have to disagree with. He does; he can still be moved, just like every other character, and he lacks the ability to be the initiator via the same tactic. It is a option he doesn't have. Corran compensates for it well by being a skilled combatant, because of his bloodline's ability to redirect energy, his dual-phase lightsaber and powerful force illusions.

I think Corran wins this fight, but let's not ignore reality just to make him look better.
Correction. Kyp only Force pushed Corran with TK, Corran just staggered back, which was a gesture of huge disrespect considering that Corran couldn't answer back. It was Kenth Hamner who retaliated and pinned Kyp to the wall with TK as response.

But I get your point. It is, indeed, disadvantage that he can't initiate. On the other hand, if he absorbs enough Force, he can use TK. His ancestor after absorbing lightsaber energy ragdolled and killed his opponent with TK, for example.


1. Filoni outright said that Opress did better than trio.
2. Assumptions/excuses don't help.

Bottom line you rely on Saesee Tiin's accolades but they don't mean much. There were thousands Jedi. He might be in top 50 and that would qualify him as among the best order ever produced and still be miles behind the other 49.
What actual combat feats he has? How many Sith did he fight? As far as I know he has no real life experience of fighting with Force users. No wonder he was utterly useless against Sidious.

Corran Horn on the other hand defeated several cortosis armored Jensaraii in I, Jedi.

Was unarmed combat expert, which he incorporated into his lightsaber combat, so he could easily surprise regular fencer with a punch or kick, which he demonstrated on Jensarai and even Luke himself:

"I closed with him and arced a cut in toward his left shoulder. He came up and blocked it high left, picking it up in the outer ring of defense. I came down and around in a sweeping blow at his left leg, but he brought his lightsaber down and batted mine aside easily. The spark of light exploding from the contact of the two blades washed shadows across Luke's disinterested expression.

About what I expected. Shifting my lightsaber to my right hand. I closed quickly and snapped the blade down in an over-hand cut. I picked up my speed on the cut, forcing Luke to block me in the middle ring. Continuing my forward movement, I pushed in with my right hand, then slid the lightsaber's hilt down. I hammered his breastbone with the lightsaber's hilt, then hooked my right leg behind Luke's right leg and dumped him to the ground.

I backed off as his blade's green light illuminated the surprise on his face. I let an edge drift into my voice. "If you aren't going to respect me, at least respect what Kam has taught me."

Luke slowly climbed back to his feet, but did so with his lightsaber always remaining between the two of us. I kept my blade angled across my body, with my hands held near my right hip and the blade's tip hovering near my left shoulder. I stamp-feinted with my right foot, as if I were beginning a charge, and Luke withdrew a half-step.

He's got to focus. I waited for him to set himself, then I came in on a circular approach that worked me toward his left. I slashed twice, crosswise, forehand and back, to keep him away from me, then drove straight toward him. I lunged with the blade. Luke's green lightsaber came around in a circular parry that carried my blade wide to my right.

His triumphant laugh died abruptly as my right foot kicked him in the gut. While he'd parried, I'd recovered from my lunge and kicked out straight into his midsection. He doubled over and fell back a couple of steps, his left hand rubbing his belly, but I gave him no chance to recover. I came on hard and fast, whipping my silver blade through an infinity loop, lashing out high and low.

Luke looked up at me and his eyes hardened.

Which is when I ran into a Force wall that bounced me back a couple of feet and set me on my heels. I tasted blood on my lips, but knew it was really coming from my nose, which hurt. I didn't think it was broken, but bumping it up against anything solid is seldom a pleasant experience.

I wiped it off on the sleeve of my green tunic, but in the half-light both it and the blood looked black. "Nice trick."

A feral grin twisted Luke's mouth. He came forward, wordlessly, moving with a fluidity I'd not seen in him before. He aimed a slash at me that would have bisected me from right shoulder to left hip. I caught a momentary flash of surprise from him because he'd expected me to block it high right, but I let it come through the outer and middle rings of defense. With a quick parry, I slid it wide of my right shoulder, then I stepped forward and slammed my right shoulder into Luke's chin. That stood him up, clicking his teeth sharply together. I drove a weak jab with my left hand into his ribs, then ducked a slash that should have trimmed my hair at roughly the level of my earlobes. Dropping into a crouch, I whipped my left leg out and scythed it through his legs, bashing his ankles together and again dropping him onto his back.
"

In fact he has few moves in his baggage that would catch off guard most of his opponents. In one case he had duel against Shedao Shai, he was losing fight but still outsmarted him with unexpected move. He, also, killed a Sith by suddenly extending his lightsaber length.

Fought many lost tribe Sith in Apocalypse. At one point he was badly injured, his leg was buckling and he still killed 4 Sith, three of which he faught simultaneously.

Corran Horn showed every trait of a battle hardened and versatile warrior. What has Saesee shown?

Originally posted by Arhael
Correction. Kyp only Force pushed Corran with TK, Corran just staggered back, which was a gesture of huge disrespect considering that Corran couldn't answer back. It was Kenth Hamner who retaliated and pinned Kyp to the wall with TK as response.

But I get your point. It is, indeed, disadvantage that he can't initiate. On the other hand, if he absorbs enough Force, he can use TK. His ancestor after absorbing lightsaber energy ragdolled and killed his opponent with TK, for example.


I appreciate the clarification of the events. I read those novels upon release and haven't touched them since, so my memory isn't crystal.

Corran Horn is my favorite SW character. I enjoyed reading about the Halcyon lineages special powers, too.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
During Luke's exile in FOTJ a few Jedi Masters had a brief battle because of a heated discussion(because of something Daala did, I think) where Kyp pinned Corran to the wall via TK. I think it was Kyp, Kenth, and Corran involved. Keep in mind, at this point(while Luke was exiled), Kyp was the strongest Jedi in the order force-wise, so it's not like Corran was being pinned by some chump.

To say that Corran doesn't suffer from a disadvantage because of his lack of tk is something I have to disagree with. He does; he can still be moved, just like every other character, and he lacks the ability to be the initiator via the same tactic. It is a option he doesn't have. Corran compensates for it well by being a skilled combatant, because of his bloodline's ability to redirect energy, his dual-phase lightsaber and powerful force illusions.

I think Corran wins this fight, but let's not ignore reality just to make him look better.

Excellent post. By he way, speaking of his illusions, what are his telepathic feats in general? I know he's supposed to be some great illusionist, but I've never heard anyone put down a single feat for him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Excellent post. By he way, speaking of his illusions, what are his telepathic feats in general? I know he's supposed to be some great illusionist, but I've never heard anyone put down a single feat for him.

One of the early tests at the Jedi academy was to lift a large rock with telekinesis.

He passed, of course- every student there saw a large rock lift in the air. Even Luke was temporarily fooled.


When the spirit of Exar Kun was around the temple, he detected it was spying, and mislead it to think the planning sessions contained even less useful information than they did.

When Exar Kun was messing with Streen (fellow student, pretty strong in the force) and making Streen think he was being attacked and thus provoking him to create a windstorm of the force, Corran countered with an illusion of the room being completely empty, calming him down.

When dealing with pirates, one time he literally managed to trick one into shooting himself in the leg. Minor but fun. He used a lot of illusions to run a long con on a pirate group, pretending not to be a Jedi, then using them to disguise himself when acting as a Jedi.


Against the Jensaarai leader, the Saarai-kaar (who was pretty strong in the force), he projected an image of the founder of the Jensaarai to her, distracting her and allowing her to be stunned.


When Luke's wedding was attacked by a bunch of swoop riders, he projected an illusion of them flying into a black hole. They thus all turned away at full, all crashing.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I appreciate the clarification of the events. I read those novels upon release and haven't touched them since, so my memory isn't crystal.

Corran Horn is my favorite SW character. I enjoyed reading about the Halcyon lineages special powers, too.
I like him too.

Sad that the character was barely explored in later books. His last big appearance was in Apocalypse but there he was more juast a regular badass combatant like Luke and Jaina, non of his uniqueness was explored whatsoever. At one point Abeloth caught him off guard with lightning and kept him electrocuted for some time but it mentions nothing of how he survived it and whether he partially absorbed it reader can only assume.

Originally posted by Arhael
I like him too.

Sad that the character was barely explored in later books. His last big appearance was in Apocalypse but there he was more juast a regular badass combatant like Luke and Jaina, non of his uniqueness was explored whatsoever. At one point Abeloth caught him off guard with lightning and kept him electrocuted for some time but it mentions nothing of how he survived it and whether he partially absorbed it reader can only assume.

Well, kinda like the "wasted potential" thread, most characters have wasted--or simply yet to be/never explored- potential. Kyp Durron should be doing very impressive things to show off his ample force reserves. Most masters fall into a similar prediciment, because they are mostly supporting characters just assuring the Skywalkers/Solos get the limilight.

Corran 10/10

Tiin turns him to ash