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I've been dealing with this for a while, I'm here for them but I get one sided excuses. They say they are too busy and now I get the feeling that they are too busy to make time for me however they want time from me. Some give me empty promises of what they say they would do but end up not doing it how they want me to come through for them. Even if I make things simple for them they still want to cling on to their busy excuses. Lately I've been frustrated because I'm doing a lot of work and I feel my work is underappreciated and my patience being tried. I feel under-minded for my efforts and I'm getting fed up to the point that I want to give up on them. Has anyone been in that boat before and if so what did you do about it? The girls say they are "busy" yet not much productivity goes on and little to none assistance being done. Get want to get lazy with everything and late with pretty much everything. Some say that its "LIFE" but yet they just making excuses for not being responsible they hide in their pride too much and it's getting old. What are some solutions to dealing with this kind of issue?

Generally, if you are unfulfilled with your friendships and relationships you should step away from them.

What does the first part, finding that women in your life don't make time for you, have to do with the second part, you being frustrated by work and feeling under appreciated?

I think you should separate time with work with time with women (that's a lot of 'withs' lol).

Maybe you spend more time with work?
I can understand this feeling especially if you are employed to a company where you have to work 8hrs/6days per week.
If that's the case, then maybe the stress from the load of your work is interfering with your relationships. All I can say about that is "That's life."

Maybe the women you've been with don't really like you, for some reason(s)?
Or maybe you are just plain unlucky with your current relationships?

I can't really help you with these problems, in this case.
You need to assess for yourself if the problem is with you, or with the women you've been with; if it has anything to do with work/your attitude/women's personalities/etc.
Sometimes you need to adjust your personality when in the company of women, especially those who suffer from unusual moodswings.

I think he (she?) means they've been "working" on trying to date them, not literal work.

Originally posted by silver_tears
I think he (she?) means they've been "working" on trying to date them, not literal work.

That makes sense.

But yeah, if you are not happy with your relationship, you should a) discuss that openly and b) if there's no satisfactory change you should evaluate whether it is worth continuing, and if it is not walk away from it

Originally posted by Bardock42
That makes sense.

But yeah, if you are not happy with your relationship, you should a) discuss that openly and b) if there's no satisfactory change you should evaluate whether it is worth continuing, and if it is not walk away from it

That's it Bardock42, and I'm a he. I'm talking about the friendship that I have. Employment-wise I'm good for the moment but when it comes to the friendship it's been a lot of work to maintain it and build it. At first things were good, it was an unconditional moment back then but as time went by she started falling apart. She started to get lazy with things even easy tasks. She would ask me for favors and I would meet them, we would talk about times for us to hang out and mind you these are ideas that she started but when the time came to do them it was put off, there was always some problem, some distraction that always came between it. I'm trying my best to be patient with her to see her come up because it's usually a beautiful thing to see when she does goes to work on me. I'm growing weary but at the same time I'm trying my best not to lose hope.

Originally posted by atv2
That's it Bardock42, and I'm a he. I'm talking about the friendship that I have. Employment-wise I'm good for the moment but when it comes to the friendship it's been a lot of work to maintain it and build it. At first things were good, it was an unconditional moment back then but as time went by she started falling apart. She started to get lazy with things even easy tasks. She would ask me for favors and I would meet them, we would talk about times for us to hang out and mind you these are ideas that she started but when the time came to do them it was put off, there was always some problem, some distraction that always came between it. I'm trying my best to be patient with her to see her come up because it's usually a beautiful thing to see when she does goes to work on me. I'm growing weary but at the same time I'm trying my best not to lose hope.

Have you talked about your thoughts with her directly?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Have you talked about your thoughts with her directly?

Yes I have but it seems like she doesn't get it. When I talk to her she says that she would do better but less than 2 days later she goes right back to the problem. It hasn't been looking too good. I communicated with her if she didn't get it together soon that I was going to shut down until she decides to get things right and what I expect from her is easy so it will be up to her to maintain the friendship or continue back with it in the event she fails. I just getting to the point where I'm tired of doing most of the work and putting me off on things she promised me she would do.

Originally posted by atv2
Yes I have but it seems like she doesn't get it. When I talk to her she says that she would do better but less than 2 days later she goes right back to the problem. It hasn't been looking too good. I communicated with her if she didn't get it together soon that I was going to shut down until she decides to get things right and what I expect from her is easy so it will be up to her to maintain the friendship or continue back with it in the event she fails. I just getting to the point where I'm tired of doing most of the work and putting me off on things she promised me she would do.

Well, that seems fair. If she doesn't change soon you should then go through with it...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, that seems fair. If she doesn't change soon you should then go through with it...

She still has time and I will go through with it if I have to and at the same time I'm making her returns simple but she just need to put in the work and it's not much.

Have you checked on her if she is dating somebody else?

I'm not saying this to hurt your relationship, but maybe there is a third party involved, if she can't give you what you want.

WATCH COREY WAYNE on youtube. it's worked wonders for me.

If women truly like you, they will make time for you. Believe it.

Don't act needy at all. BE TOO BUSY FOR HER SOMETIMES.

Originally posted by Raisen
Don't act needy at all. BE TOO BUSY FOR HER SOMETIMES.

I really don't understand why this works with women....but it does.

That tactic never worked with me. Women who made themselves extraordinarily available made me like them and I would make sure to make time for them.

If they are showing that much of an interest as long as they are not creepy, go out of your way to accommodate them. If you're not interested, be decent enough to say so, upfront. Don't lead people on: that's just mean/cruel.

Also, if I had a dime for every time one of my gal pals complained about there being no "great guys" out there (when there was clearly a great guy who liked her), I'd be a trillionaire. Seems like most of them complain about multiple relationships failing when they should stop pursuing assholes and go after the "great guy" that they have relegated to "just some guy I know who is nice." Man, some of those conversations on read on Facebook are cringey.

"Ugh, are there any nice guys out there?"

"Hey, Sarah, what's wrong?"

"I broke up with Brian. He's such a jerk."

"What did he do?"



"Awe. Too bad. You'll find someone, one day. I would never treat you like that."

"Yeah, I wish I could find a great guy. Seems there are no good ones left."

"..."

Originally posted by dadudemon
I really don't understand why this works with women....but it does.

That tactic never worked with me. Women who made themselves extraordinarily available made me like them and I would make sure to make time for them.

If they are showing that much of an interest as long as they are not creepy, go out of your way to accommodate them. If you're not interested, be decent enough to say so, upfront. Don't lead people on: that's just mean/cruel.

Also, if I had a dime for every time one of my gal pals complained about there being no "great guys" out there (when there was clearly a great guy who liked her), I'd be a trillionaire. Seems like most of them complain about multiple relationships failing when they should stop pursuing assholes and go after the "great guy" that they have relegated to "just some guy I know who is nice." Man, some of those conversations on read on Facebook are cringey.

"Ugh, are there any nice guys out there?"

"Hey, Sarah, what's wrong?"

"I broke up with Brian. He's such a jerk."

"What did he do?"



"Awe. Too bad. You'll find someone, one day. I would never treat you like that."

"Yeah, I wish I could find a great guy. Seems there are no good ones left."

"..."

Dude. Watch Corey Wayne.

Originally posted by Raisen
Dude. Watch Corey Wayne.

I don't need to watch a video on how to "deal" with girls. I had no problems.

I'm also married, now. None of it matters.

I talk to God about everything.

It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them, what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?

and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled. if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.

Originally posted by Sancty
It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them, what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?

and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled. if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.

Oh look, the opinion of the man-hating Feminazi socialist liberal Left.

laughcry

Use common sense. Find your bliss.

Originally posted by Wonder Man
I talk to God about everything.

Really? Because you never responded to my last email telling you to stop masturbating so much. Seriously, it's becoming a problem.

Originally posted by Sancty
It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them, what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?

and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled. if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.

I'm pretty sure this logic peters out by late 20s. It's a maturation thing, not a societally systemic one.

Originally posted by Sancty
It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them, what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?

and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled. if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.
Took the thoughts right out of my head.

Stop being a beta male and complaining when girls won't play with your wiener. Stop caring about it. When you're not emotionally invested in trivial bullshit you will be a happier guy.

Originally posted by Digi

I'm pretty sure this logic peters out by late 20s. It's a maturation thing, not a societally systemic one.
It's both IMO, but yeah, I think most people grow out of it, and start thinking about other people's perspective

Anyways if you have to keep bugging someone to make time for you, they're probably not interested.. maybe they feel uncomfortable telling you directly.

I always buy flowers.

**** em.

Originally posted by Sancty
It's both IMO, but yeah, I think most people grow out of it, and start thinking about other people's perspective

Anyways if you have to keep bugging someone to make time for you, they're probably not interested.. maybe they feel uncomfortable telling you directly. Then they're cowards and not worth your time, IMO.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Then they're cowards and not worth your time, IMO.

Originally posted by Sancty
It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them,

I don't think anyone in this thread has conveyed that expectation.

Originally posted by Sancty
what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?

That's (attractiveness) very nebulous and hard to define. A gal will literally say she's not attracted to one dude and say she's attracted to another when another gal will say the opposite. And then, for some reason, her opinions will change even if she has had no interactions with the dudes in question. Attraction to males is not as concrete as attraction to females. There seems to be more...mmm...not sure what it is...but, for some reason, "male attractiveness" is much more difficult to define than female. This is not my opinion: this is the results of lots of research in sexology. There are usually 2 things that can define a "close to objective" male attractiveness: facial symmetry and masculine facial features. Even this can vary with females depending on where they are in their ovulation cycle. Then there is the issue that extremely ugly men (men that parents would shit their pants if they found them talking to their kids on the street) are found highly attractive by females due to their popularity and/or success. In fact, one study showed that men who were labeled (they were made up labels) with high-paying and/or highly prestigious jobs, were found much more attractive. One of the control groups for this study was a "baseline" of those same men that had no labels. Men that were highly rated in the control group got downgraded, heavily, to below average if they had shitty jobs and/or poorly viewed jobs. Crazy...

Men? It is much easier to determine what they find attractive. And it is nearly universal for both males and females (meaning, females will rate the same women attractive as men).

What I am saying is, a gal can find a gent unattractive one day and then find him attractive the next (literally). I think this also means that there is hope for men who are willing to admit that they need to alter their behaviors to make themselves more attractive to women.

Originally posted by Sancty
and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled.

I hear about this all the time on the internet but I have yet to meet this fabled man. Most of them lack confidence and do not feel that they are entitled, at all: just the opposite. The feel that they are not entitled to anything and get downtrodden about relationships. They literally give up.

Originally posted by Sancty
if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.

When that gal-pal describes her ideal man, to a the letter, a man she has relegated to "uninterested", clearly, she just needs to pull her head out of her ass and see what is right in front of her. If you're truly a friend, you won't keep supporting your gal-pals shitty choices in sexist assholes. Instead, a real friend will point out, "What about Brian? He's nice, educated, quiet, and I've never heard him utter a single sexist sentence. He also can hold down a job and he gets along with his coworkers. Send him a message...tell him Dominic sent you."

Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop being a beta male and complaining when girls won't play with your wiener. Stop caring about it. When you're not emotionally invested in trivial bullshit you will be a happier guy.

You may be joking but this is actually much closer to the truth.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I hear about this all the time on the internet but I have yet to meet this fabled man. Most of them lack confidence and do not feel that they are entitled, at all: just the opposite. The feel that they are not entitled to anything and get downtrodden about relationships. They literally give up.

I'm sure that happens sometimes too. But a lot of the people who lament that these girls they are into are only dating assholes, are often assholes themselves in my experience. Often they don't treat the woman they say they like with respect at all, and just delude themselves into thinking "I'm so much nicer than her boyfriend", etc.


Originally posted by dadudemon
When that gal-pal describes her ideal man, to a the letter, a man she has relegated to "uninterested", clearly, she just needs to pull her head out of her ass and see what is right in front of her. If you're truly a friend, you won't keep supporting your gal-pals shitty choices in sexist assholes. Instead, a real friend will point out, "What about Brian? He's nice, educated, quiet, and I've never heard him utter a single sexist sentence. He also can hold down a job and he gets along with his coworkers. Send him a message...tell him Dominic sent you."

Oh yeah, you can definitely suggest that. And if she then says "Oh, I like Brian as a friend, but I'm not into him romantically", you'll also be a buddy and not continue to push what you think she wants.

But even if she doesn't go into her reasons, perhaps she'll just say "Hmm, yeah maybe" and then not do it, you should respect that she makes this decision herself, perhaps she's not comfortable being so straightforward about these matters with you in particular, or just in general. Women are not usually brought up to be very outspoken about their own wishes, and so many aren't.

Getting away from the nice guy talk.

There is such a wide spectrum of stories about various degrees on this subject that making one absolute claim on the matter isn't taking the whole into account.

But I will remark on what the OP has said.

At this point it sounds like you aren't getting what you want out of the relationship. I don't know if that is just friendship or more but you should talk about it with the person in question.

Perhaps they are only saying they will hang out with you because they want to be nice to you. Or perhaps they have every attention of doing what they say but something does come up.

Point is talk about it and if you don't like what you hear then perhaps it is time to move on from the friendship and relationship and put your energy into someone else that will give you want.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm sure that happens sometimes too.

I'm sure it happens, as well. But I have never observed this type in "the wild" before. I think it is generally used as a strawman personality invented for these types of conversations, though. I saw this saw strawman pop-up on reddit yesterday.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But a lot of the people who lament that these girls they are into are only dating assholes, are often assholes themselves in my experience.

Lamenting yourself because you genuinely think you're a loser and lamenting girls are 2 different things. We are not talking about the same people, then.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Often they don't treat the woman they say they like with respect at all, and just delude themselves into thinking "I'm so much nicer than her boyfriend", etc.

Again, I've never seen this type. A guy who I think is very nice, lacks confidence in himself, is not sexist, is educated, is stable, and likes a girl who does not like him back is not a man who does not treat a woman with respect and/or is sexist. These are not the same people. You are definitely talking about someone else. Perhaps I am blind to these types because I just label them as "assholes." I definitely do not label those types as "nice guys who lack confidence."




Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh yeah, you can definitely suggest that. And if she then says "Oh, I like Brian as a friend, but I'm not into him romantically", you'll also be a buddy and not continue to push what you think she wants.

I really don't know any gal-pal of mine who would say something like that. None of them ever have when I make suggestions. Most of them are happy to get a suggestion from a trusted male friend.

Also, I am using "gal-pal" because English lacks the word for "A female friend of a male where it is mutually understood as strictly platonic." I do not intend for the label to be sexist but I feel it is borderline sexist unless I provide my definition. I think you knew how I was using it but I wanted to make it clear.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But even if she doesn't go into her reasons, perhaps she'll just say "Hmm, yeah maybe" and then not do it, you should respect that she makes this decision herself, perhaps she's not comfortable being so straightforward about these matters with you in particular, or just in general. Women are not usually brought up to be very outspoken about their own wishes, and so many aren't.

What do you take me for? One of those *sshole types that does not respect women's wishes? 313


So now can we get back to the actual topic? Women who continually self-sabotage by dating assholes? Oh, it's because it is in their nature:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201310/why-do-women-fall-bad-boys

Some women, to their credit, are able to think more pragmatically and shuck off their attraction to these *sshole types. They reason that this person is abusive and a relationship is not a good idea. I think they should teach young women, in schools, about mature and healthy relationships. I also think they should teach young men that same things. It should be part of a complete package of sex education (which includes safe-sex and abstinence information (such as how abstinence is the absolute best way to avoid getting pregnant or STDs but that it is almost completely impractical in the real world)).

Obviously we are not talking about the same people, like I said, I think there may be a small percentage of nice, shy guys that don't approach women and feel bad about that, but the number of ******* guys who think they are overlooked, when really they are just obvious assholes and not friends, both off and online, seems much larger, at least in my experience.

Also, using "a female friend" is perfectly fine and much less stupid than "gal-pal".

The trope of women always choosing assholes that aren't good for them, is, imo, mostly fictional, btw.

So I said I wasn't going to get into the argument but I'm tired and slightly looking for a fight and decided to do so in here.

So on the basis of this topic I would like to point out as eloquently as possible is the following.

Yes there is probably a percentage of a$$hole guys that try to pretend to be nice to a woman to get into their pants and that is wrong.

Yes there is probably a percentage of nice guys that are just too shy to speak up and they are hoping their actions will speak for themselves which is alright to a point.

There are probably nice guys that have grown up feeling entitled because they are nice which isn't right either.

Yes there are a$$hole women who find a nice guy and like to exploit and manipulate them which isn't right.

Yes there are a percentage women that don't want a relationship with a guy but they still feel entitled to that guys friendship which is wrong.

Yes there is probably even apercentage of women who do date a$$holes then complain about it even if they have nice guy friends that don't want to date the women but at the very least should give those women more of a guide line as to what to look for. Hey both sides are right imagine that a scenario that works out for both arguments.

Also there are percentages where some or all of the scenarios above are happening simultaneously together and probably some scenarios I didn't even bring up.

And guess what there are percentages of the scenarios above where the gender roles are switched.

So my point is this I bet everyone here is generally just drawing from personal experience which means no here as a right to preemptively decide which scenario is applicable or has any hard fact to support your arguments anyway.

So how about this instead of using your bias to rush to a conclusion on what could be a complex scenario far beyond simple good or bad how about you either try to objective and offer solid advice to a person that could be need while not rushing to judgement or if you don't think you can do that shut up because you're not being helpful to the situation at hand.

And definitely arguing over who is right and who is wrong on something that could be multiple scenarios should just be done away in this thread all together.

So I beg and implore the people of this thread to be productive instead of a judgmental nuisance who isn't helping.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/atheists.png

Lol not my intention but made me laugh.

XKCD is hilarious at all times. At any rate, this guy made three threads that are exactly the same complaining about these women in his life. He has disregarded all constructive advice (I know, because I gave him some in each thread), as such these threads are just vehicles for him to vent, and we don't have to indulge that. A discussion of what I view as the underlying societal expectations and roles that make him behave the way he does seems considerably more interesting and constructive.

Originally posted by Newjak

Yes there are a percentage women that don't want a relationship with a guy but they still feel entitled to that guys friendship which is wrong.

What? Why can't they just be friends? If the person who is romantically interested can't accept their friends wishes, they need to decide whether to stay friends or stop talking to them.


Anyways my posts were addressing the general "women only date assholes!" "friendzone"-esque bullshit that was coming up.

The OP is way too vague IMO, he just makes these threads to complain without giving enough details for anyone to actually help (and even if he did, this is an awful place to look for it)

Fair enough I did not know he has a habit of tgis. but the problem becomes whose version of societal norms do we use? What is truly the societal norm? Personally and this is just opinion I think both can play a game with this and that everyone will deal with some version of it that can skew their perceptive. Overall it should just be a learning experience for how to move on with life and evolve how you choose handle personal relationships.

And I do personally think trying to generalize the situation into one single perspective cab create resentment and could be harmful.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, using "a female friend" is perfectly fine and much less stupid than "gal-pal".

I was told by a feminist professor, in college, that referring to casual female friends as "female" is sexist because it is a cold label that distances the person from the lady in question. She also advised against using "girl" as it implies young and perhaps immature. She was okay with "gal" in a casual or even light-hearted context. She was okay with "lady", as well, but said some people use it to be mean as well (such as "Oh, THAT lady..." She said to use "woman" where possible, even when referring to teenage women as it is a label of respect and maturity. Lastly, she did not buy into the "woman" label as being negative because some women view the term as indicating they are old (because she viewed this opinion as a negative social norm brought about by sexism against women...the stereotype being that "older female humans have less worth than their younger more attractive members". I am trying to be more mindful of how I use labels that could be seen as insensitive or even sexist. As I get older, I can no longer rely on ignorance of youth to justify poorly thought-out labels.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The trope of women always choosing assholes that aren't good for them, is, imo, mostly fictional, btw.

It's okay: I see it often enough in the real world that I know it isn't a fictitious trope. Did you read the article I linked? Also, I think what you state here may be an inadvertent strawman of my position. I have never held the position that these women "always" (as in, 100% of the time) choose assholes for companions.


Edit - I should also note that I live in Oklahoma and my experiences are going to be tainted by this experience. Oklahoma is very far behind the rest of the world when it comes to gender roles and progressive views of family. Women are treated with much more sexism here than you would view in other places because there are a f*ckton of sexist men living here. I should not have to point out that Oklahoma is the reddest state in the US...but it is as of the last 2 elections. We have some growing up to do, here. Lots of assholes in Oklahoma...

I think looking at the individual is definitely one useful thing to do, and in that manner you are right, obviously as people anyone can play games, anyone can be abusive, anyone can be a terrible friend.

But when we start talking about "women are like this" and "men are like this" we make completely different statements, and these statements should be dissected by themselves. There is a common trope that says "women choose to date assholes", but to just lazily accept that is a mistake, imo. Particular in this guys case, where he is obviously obsessive, and feels entitled to the affections of multiple women, we should use this stereotype to absolve him from any responsibility in his relationships.

Originally posted by Sancty
What? Why can't they just be friends? If the person who is romantically interested can't accept their friends wishes, they need to decide whether to stay friends or stop talking to them.


Anyways my posts were addressing the general "women only date assholes!" "friendzone"-esque bullshit that was coming up.

The OP is way too vague IMO, he just makes these threads to complain without giving enough details for anyone to actually help (and even if he did, this is an awful place to look for it) I didn't say they couldn't that is a perfectly posible scenario. I was simply addressing a different scentric where a woman will get mean and nasty to a guy who does try to stop talking to them because they decided just being friends isn't enough. I've also observed women try andd guilt nice guys to staying their friends even though they know that the guy wants. Now it is up to the guy to walk away from that just like a woman should walk away from a guy not respecting her wishes or trying to use her in a way she doesn't want.

In both cases the person trying to exploit the other is wrong.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think looking at the individual is definitely one useful thing to do, and in that manner you are right, obviously as people anyone can play games, anyone can be abusive, anyone can be a terrible friend.

But when we start talking about "women are like this" and "men are like this" we make completely different statements, and these statements should be dissected by themselves. There is a common trope that says "women choose to date assholes", but to just lazily accept that is a mistake, imo. Particular in this guys case, where he is obviously obsessive, and feels entitled to the affections of multiple women, we should use this stereotype to absolve him from any responsibility in his relationships. I do agree such vague statements on genders is stupid. There are many women I know that date nice guys
and don't date a holes. Just like the statement all guys are dogs is stupid. Or the statement all nice guys that are friends should be given a chance to ne dated is stupid.

Originally posted by Newjak
I didn't say they couldn't that is a perfectly posible scenario. I was simply addressing a different scentric where a woman will get mean and nasty to a guy who does try to stop talking to them because they decided just being friends isn't enough. I've also observed women try andd guilt nice guys to staying their friends even though they know that the guy wants. Now it is up to the guy to walk away from that just like a woman should walk away from a guy not respecting her wishes or trying to use her in a way she doesn't want.

In both cases the person trying to exploit the other is wrong.

I think I follow what you mean. That sort of situation is tough, but at the same time, I dont see women "guilting" men into being friends with them. In a way, that seems almost fair. I've known guys who've reacted pretty much exactly as you've described. Sort of like this

1. A guy sees a girl he is attracted to and begins to like them, and wish to date them.
2. The guy and girl begin to talk and interact, a friendship/possible relationship is established.
3. The girl realizes she does not in fact like this person in a romantic sense, but as a friend.
4. The guy doesn't want to be friends with her. He just wanted to date her. And thus, tells her so and walks away.

Isn't that dickish behavior? What did a guy like about this girl in the first place that's ONLY date worthy and NOT friendship worthy?

When you described it, Newjak, I was kinda sad for both hypothetical people. But on reflection, isn't that really childish of a guy to react in that way?

I think like situations depends on the intention and even than there could degrees. Like maybe the person doesn't completely cut off contact but decided that they don't want same level of contact. As for being childish I think it depends on the person.

I think life learning to deal with relationships which includes friendships is important. Even more important is learning how you as individual deal with them.

I think a person who is specifically looking for romantic interests and doesn't find is perfectly okay deciding friendship isn't enough to stay around.

Or perhaps the person not wanting to be just friends is doing it because they have developed strong feelings and they know they will slowly build resentment over time because of it. That person leaving I don't think 8s being childish. Perhaps all they decided is that they have limited time and they need put their energy into something they want.

I think being childish in this scenario is generally those that expect another person to do something or those people that expect their feelings to be con sidereal and respected without doing so in return.

I've also chosen to use gender neutral terms because the genders can be swapped in a lot of these possibilities and this helps to keep it frim a them vs us argument.

Originally posted by Bardock42
XKCD is hilarious at all times. At any rate, this guy made three threads that are exactly the same complaining about these women in his life. He has disregarded all constructive advice (I know, because I gave him some in each thread), as such these threads are just vehicles for him to vent, and we don't have to indulge that. A discussion of what I view as the underlying societal expectations and roles that make him behave the way he does seems considerably more interesting and constructive.

Originally posted by Newjak
Or perhaps the person not wanting to be just friends is doing it because they have developed strong feelings and they know they will slowly build resentment over time because of it. That person leaving I don't think 8s being childish. Perhaps all they decided is that they have limited time and they need put their energy into something they want.

Yes, this is good reason. I think it is more mature for the gentleman to walk away than to keep previously romantic interests around as gal-pals. But I have seen gentlemen later pick up where the left off by simply sticking around as a "friend" and then taking the correct actions at the right time to make things work (young Mormon men are notorious for doing this and it is a running joke in singles branches). That takes quite a bit of patience...and is borderline creepy. That whole time, he was just plotting his swooping...pretending to be a friend. 5 years later into a marriage: "Remember when you wanted to 'just be friends', Julie? Haha, I waited until the right time to start things back up. I meticulously planned and prepped you so that you'd want to date me, again."

Also, I think expecting a previous romantic interest to stick around as "friends" is not only selfish, but it seems unhealthy...narcissistic, perhaps? Additionally, it is usually a bad-idea to keep a list of semi-frequently, previously romantic interests, around if you plan to continue to date (but if you decide/realize that you're asexual, that doesn't present a problem...usually) other people.

But, there is something else to consider: Some gals use the "let's be friends" card to be safe. As one gal explained it to me, some men get very angry/wroth and abusive if you are direct about not being interested so they have to let them down, gently. That's scary. No woman should feel like they have to do that.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Also, I think expecting a previous romantic interest to stick around as "friends" is not only selfish, but it seems unhealthy...narcissistic, perhaps? Additionally, it is usually a bad-idea to keep a list of semi-frequently, previously romantic interests, around if you plan to continue to date (but if you decide/realize that you're asexual, that doesn't present a problem...usually) other people..

Really? How come you would describe it a selfish? How can it be any more selfish than saying "Well if you don't want just me in your life than you can't have any of me at all ?"

Isn't that even more pathetically narcissistic? Or at least the same.

Let's be honest here you could probably label all this talk ad selfish if you wanted. Truth be told everyone needs to be somewhat selfish from time to time.

But once again I don't equate it to childish. Now there probably exists times where someone takes it far. Like someone saying date me or we are no longer friends. That's not trying to make a personal decision that is respectful of the other person and good for yourself. That is someone trying to hold another person ransom which is wrong.

Originally posted by Quincy
Really? How come you would describe it a selfish? How can it be any more selfish than saying "Well if you don't want just me in your life than you can't have any of me at all ?"


Selfish:

"lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."

Example: "I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life as a friend regardless of their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Narcissism comes into play as such:

"I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life because their adoration feeds me. I do not care about their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Keep in mind that this is not gender specific.


I think a person should be allowed to not waste time on someone he or she does not want to waste time without being labeled "a dick." "You're a dick for not spending time with me, as friends, when you previously have made it quite clear that you had a romantic interest in me, not a platonic one." O rly?

Also, I see men put girls into this "friendly-acquaintance and pseudo-romantic" category, stringing them along, so they have a ready-made f*ck-buddy at a moment's notice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Selfish:

"lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."

Example: "I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life as a friend regardless of their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Narcissism comes into play as such:

"I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life because their adoration feeds me. I do not care about their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Do you consider that the person who wishes to simply remain friends with someone who wants to date them MORE selfish and Narcisstic than somebody who refuses to be friends with someone who won't date them?

Originally posted by Quincy
Do you consider that the person who wishes to simply remain friends with someone who wants to date them MORE selfish and Narcisstic than somebody who refuses to be friends with someone who won't date them?

I consider the rhetoric of this question to represent a strawman perspective of my position so I will disregard a direct address of this question, altogether.

Instead, I will state a second time: I think a person should be allowed to not waste time on someone he or she does not want to waste time without being labeled "a dick." Also, the selfishness comes into play in the following way:

Selfish:

"lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."

Example: "I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life as a friend regardless of their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."



A person should not be expected to "just be friends" with someone they do not want to be friends with and they should be allowed to move on to other romantic relationships without being considered "a dick" for making a mature emotional decisions.

Also, your question, itself, is malformed. You either intentionally or unintentionally moved the goalposts. You used the word "remain." "Let's just be friends" does not mean the same thing "let's remain as friends." If you were friends, prior, then someone or both started the relationship in a romantic direction, and then someone wanted to not take it that direction, the option to "remain as friends" is open. Regardless, no one should get a "dick" label if they decide to end the friendship. Ending the relationship, altogether, is not dickish. It is how you go about doing so that makes you a dick.

Lastly, your question is adding motives to the situation I was describing that were not there, before. This is also a strawman. You stated, "...than somebody who refuses to be friends with someone who won't date them?" You're adding a stipulation that I did not. Since when did I state that this hypothetical person is "refusing" to be friends? Did I not state or imply exactly what I meant when I agreed with Newjack? He said the following:

"Or perhaps the person not wanting to be just friends is doing it because they have developed strong feelings and they know they will slowly build resentment over time because of it. That person leaving I don't think 8s being childish. Perhaps all they decided is that they have limited time..."


That's not the same thing as "refusing to be friends."


If you want to talk about degrees of selfishness, be my guest: that's not a topic I have entertained.


TL : DR - You're moving the goalposts as I haven't been talking about "remaining" friends and people who "refuse" to be friends. I'm pretty sure you're familiar enough with my argumentation style that you knew something like that would not work with me.


Edit - I was inclined to reword your question for you to keep it more contextual:




The answer to that question is: "It is unanswerable because specifics are missing that allow a value judgment to be made on the question. What are the motivations for the person to want become friends? What are the motivations for the person who decides that being friends cannot work for them?"

Hey man, I do appreciate the length that you reponded there, but my question isn't like, an attempt to discredit you or calling you out on anything if that's what you are worried about.

If you think my question doesn't have anything to do with whatever point you are making, I'll concede. I'm not trying to trick ya.

It's just, when you described someone who wants to be friends with someone who wants to date them as "selfish" and the thought of wanting that as "narcissistic" it sounded to me like you were implying that the only person that was acting immaturely is the person preferring to be friends with someone. Is that the case?

I'm not adding any other motives at this point or anything like that, I'm just asking your opinion.

If it is at all selfish/arrogant to want to be friends with someone who likes you, then it is at all selfish/arrogant to NOT be friends with somebody for not dating you?

And I'm sorry man, I'm not familiar with your argumentation style, and I wasn't aware that we were arguing.

edit:

I saw you're latest edit, and I guess I'll stop asking you then. You've already said that a person can be selfish for wanting to be friends with someone who wants to date them. But are you like, refusing to say it's possible for it to be the other way around?

Originally posted by Quincy
Hey man, I do appreciate the length that you reponded there, but my question isn't like, an attempt to discredit you or calling you out on anything if that's what you are worried about.

If you think my question doesn't have anything to do with whatever point you are making, I'll concede. I'm not trying to trick ya.

It's just, when you described someone who wants to be friends with someone who wants to date them as "selfish" and the thought of wanting that as "narcissistic" it sounded to me like you were implying that the only person that was acting immaturely is the person preferring to be friends with someone. Is that the case?

I'm not adding any other motives at this point or anything like that, I'm just asking your opinion.

If it is at all selfish/arrogant to want to be friends with someone who likes you, then it is at all selfish/arrogant to NOT be friends with somebody for not dating you?

Newjack, I think, already pounded it into our heads that there are so many different scenarios or kinds of people in these situations that a generic example is very difficult to discuss. Generally, I would recommend people to not "just be friends" if one of the people in a relationship want to cut off the romantic interests in the relationship. Unless you have lots of time to be friends with every previously failed relationship, of course. I say the best course of action, long-term, is not not keep a dynamic list of friends as you move from relationship to relationship. I am sure future boyfriends/girlfriends will appreciate you not being "good friends" with your exes.

But there could be other elements to these situations where my general recommendation is not the best solution. For example, using your previous question, what if they were friends before the romantic pursuance started? Well, in that case, it depends on how emotionally mature both parties are and how readily they can put that awkwardness behind them. Sure, they can remain friends! They should if they can, in fact. They were friends before, so why not? There should not be any hard and fast rule on how to treat these situations. But we should be readily aware of the motivations and circumstances that surround these situations. Some people are being selfish by wanting to be friends. Some are definitely being narcissistic. And some are afraid of the other person losing their shit (I used the example of one of my gal-pals stating she is afraid of how some men blow-up when she lets them down so she uses the friend line).

To answer your question, directly:

Originally posted by Quincy
It's just, when you described someone who wants to be friends with someone who wants to date them as "selfish" and the thought of wanting that as "narcissistic" it sounded to me like you were implying that the only person that was acting immaturely is the person preferring to be friends with someone. Is that the case?

That depends on the situation. As I stated in my edit: What are the motivations for the person to want become friends? What are the motivations for the person who decides that being friends cannot work for them?

If we have the answers to those questions, we can determine if a person refused to be friends in a dickish manner or if the person wanting to be friends is doing so for selfish or even narcissistic reasons. If you (or anyone) decides you want to be "just friends" with someone who has been pursuing you romantically, genuinely assess why you think being "just friends" is what you want. Do you really want it? Are you doing it for selfish or narcissistic reasons? Are you trying to avoid the person from raging on you? Do you genuinely value their friendship or think that they would be excellent friends? What does that person think or feel about my suggestion to be friends?

My comments to Newjack, whose comments were regarding your comments, indirectly addressed a statement about people "being a dick" when not wanting to be friends. There are many sides to this and not everyone is being a dick when they decline being friends. This was the motivations or intentions behind my statements with the narcissism and selfishness: there are dicks, selfish assholes, and narcissists all over the place. Not everyone is being a dick with action xyz, basically.

Originally posted by Quincy
And I'm sorry man, I'm not familiar with your argumentation style, and I wasn't aware that we were arguing.

But, you've been a witness to some of the most lengthy and nuanced arguments on KMC in the Anime/Manga section and even quoted portions of my argumentative posts. I do expect people to remember everything when that is unrealistic. My apologies. At the least, I thought my KMC reputation as an "argumentative *sshole" would have been enough.


Originally posted by Quincy
But are you like, refusing to say it's possible for it to be the other way around?

Not at all. But I would not consider that person who is throwing a tantrum (the person in your hypothetical that refuses to be a friend) to be, generally, selfish. It is difficult to throw a selfish label on it. It really depends on their motivations for that tantrum. Is it because they do not care about their love-interest's feelings and just want self-gratification? Or is it because they cannot handle rejection too well and are highly insecure? From my experience, they don't want to be friends because it is too painful for them/they cannot get over it so they move on to save everyone the pain of being an emotional bag of snot. Outside of 80s high school movies, I have never witnesses this archetype you describe: the person that, for selfish reasons, refuses to be friends with someone that has rejected them.

You're right! I knew those donuts looked ominous!

You're well spoken, here. I guess my opinion stems from my own experiences and stuff, but I think I can paint a picture from your perspective too.

It just sucks that people are like this at all, ya know?

I like Quincy. Not only because he's a debaser, and I want to grow up to be one.

Well, I dont know about you, Bardock. But I am Un Chien Andalusia

Originally posted by Quincy
You're right! I knew those donuts looked ominous!

You're well spoken, here. I guess my opinion stems from my own experiences and stuff, but I think I can paint a picture from your perspective too.

It just sucks that people are like this at all, ya know?

I see many more assholes than "mean women" in the real world. Seems that there are assholes everywhere. My experiences are slanted against men and they shouldn't be. I should just go live somewhere else. I want to move to a much colder place. Tired of this hot and humid weather.

I just wish I could smack the women I know in my life who keep falling into the "assholes trap" and get abused, once again.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I like Quincy. Not only because he's a debaser, and I want to grow up to be one.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1kzh3HakI1qa6lp8.gif

Originally posted by dadudemon
You may be joking but this is actually much closer to the truth. I am one hundred percent serious about that, lol.

Stop giving a **** about it.