Speciesist reason for not wanting Maul

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Darth Abonis
In old EU, it was said that Palpatine and Dooku were specieist and humanocentric, hating alien species and thinking humans were superior. The Rebels visual guide reconfirms that the Empire was xenophobic. Anyway, when Maul came back on the scene, Palpatine made it clear that he had no desire to have him as an apprentice, despite the latter then capturing Grievous and Dooku. I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku; yet Palpatine did not pit him against Dooku for the title of apprentice. Maul proved to be as smart and manipulative as Dooku, albeit perhaps slightly more crude. Why not have him return to the fold? Because Palpatine had found a fellow human that was almost as powerful, and that was good enough, and certaintly better than some stinky Zabrak.

Emperordmb
The fact that Dooku was already well established as the head of the CIS certainly made Sidious's decision there easier IMO

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Maul had NO intent of returning to Sidious's side by that point.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The fact that Dooku was already well established as the head of the CIS certainly made Sidious's decision there easier IMO

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Maul had NO intent of returning to Sidious's side by that point.

thumb up dmb just summed it all up.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Darth Abonis
I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku;


Nah. Dooku was still more powerful than Maul. And the gap wasn't small. It was significant.

Q99
Originally posted by Darth Abonis
I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku;

What gives you that impression?

I mean, Grievous was able to give a somewhat-tired SoD Maul a good fight.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Darth Abonis
In old EU, it was said that Palpatine and Dooku were specieist and humanocentric, hating alien species and thinking humans were superior. The Rebels visual guide reconfirms that the Empire was xenophobic. Anyway, when Maul came back on the scene, Palpatine made it clear that he had no desire to have him as an apprentice, despite the latter then capturing Grievous and Dooku. I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku; yet Palpatine did not pit him against Dooku for the title of apprentice. Maul proved to be as smart and manipulative as Dooku, albeit perhaps slightly more crude. Why not have him return to the fold? Because Palpatine had found a fellow human that was almost as powerful, and that was good enough, and certaintly better than some stinky Zabrak.

Nah Maul wasn't even on Dooku's level. Notice that when it is revealed that Maul and Dooku are working together Mace immediately says that Dooku is the DLOTS, not Maul. Also throughout the war a good chunk of the Jedi Council sans perhaps Yoda and Kenobi believed that Dooku was Maul's master and the mastermind behind the war.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Notice that when it is revealed that Maul and Dooku are working together Mace immediately says that Dooku is the DLOTS, not Maul.


thumb up

Marco1907
Originally posted by Q99
What gives you that impression?

I mean, Grievous was able to give a somewhat-tired SoD Maul a good fight.

Maul curstomped Grievous in SoD 02, he only able to match with Maul after he send 4 magnaguards to exhaust him. And lastly in SoD 04, despite the fact he used surprise factor and Maul was not expecting a fight, Maul still subdued him with ease and then helped his mother.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. Dooku was still more powerful than Maul. And the gap wasn't small. It was significant.

How is that ? Dooku never tried to ran from Maul, he just accepted his hostage condition, he only tried to do something when Maul is distracted and he only used the force to unlock Grievous's cell. That confirms that even in the force, Dooku is not superior to TCW Maul at all. And in lightsaber combat, Maul can defeat Dooku due to his physical advantage.

if Dooku is superior to Maul in the force, there was lots of chance to take out Maul in SoD 02 - 03 - 04, but he never tried it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah Maul wasn't even on Dooku's level. Notice that when it is revealed that Maul and Dooku are working together Mace immediately says that Dooku is the DLOTS, not Maul. Also throughout the war a good chunk of the Jedi Council sans perhaps Yoda and Kenobi believed that Dooku was Maul's master and the mastermind behind the war.

What's got to do anything ? Maul especially wanted to be in shadow and not to reveal himself to the jedi order and republic, otherwise he would be bugsquash against vast army of republic. On the other hand, Dooku is the leader of the droid army, while Maul only controlled gangsters and part of the mandalore warriors death watch.

That's only can confirm that Maul and Dooku at the same level, if not Mace Windu should able to defeat Maul while especially Aayla Secura was helping him. And we know that Mace could stomp Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. Only Count Dooku could able match with Mace Windu in single combat, and TCW Maul easily did that.

As for the topic, Maul doesn't want to be apprentice either, remember when Sidious asked Maul's demands, he never said about returning to be sith apprenticeship. Maul just wanted to take revenge from Sidious, rather than being an apprentice again.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907



How is that ? Dooku never tried to ran from Maul, he just accepted his hostage condition, he only tried to do something when Maul is distracted and he only used the force to unlock Grievous's cell. That confirms that even in the force, Dooku is not superior to TCW Maul at all. And in lightsaber combat, Maul can defeat Dooku due to his physical advantage.

if Dooku is superior to Maul in the force, there was lots of chance to take out Maul in SoD 02 - 03 - 04, but he never tried it.






Up until SOD 4 it was part of Sidious's plan for Dooku to be captured by Maul to bring out Mother Talzin. Dooku only wanted Grievous to escape back to Sidious, and Dooku managed just that.

Also that's not exactly a fair scenario when Dooku is in handcuffs, without his Saber and surrounded by Maul and his men, so really not sure what your point is.


Originally posted by Marco1907



That's only can confirm that Maul and Dooku at the same level, if not Mace Windu should able to defeat Maul while especially Aayla Secura was helping him. And we know that Mace could stomp Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. Only Count Dooku could able match with Mace Windu in single combat, and TCW Maul easily did that.




Maul held off Windu and Secura, injuring Secura in the process. That's not the same thing as Maul stalemating Windu.

How many times has Ventress held off Skywalker and Kenobi together? Does that mean Ventress would stalemate Skywalker in a 1 vs 1 to the end?

What about Kenobi fighting off Maul and Opress?


Fact is though as of TCW Maul has consistently struggled to defeat Kenobi, whilst Dooku has consistently Owned Kenobi, with TK and with Sabers. So that IS Proof that Dooku is still above Maul in Sabers and in the Force Imho.

But hey that's not the end of the story. Dooku's dead whilst Maul's still alive, so perhaps Maul will grow more powerful by the next time we see him. At that point the Maul vs Dooku debate could be more interesting, but until then it's pretty one sided.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Up until SOD 4 it was part of Sidious's plan for Dooku to be captured by Maul to bring out Mother Talzin. Dooku only wanted Grievous to escape back to Sidious, and Dooku managed just that.

Also that's not exactly a fair scenario when Dooku is in handcuffs, without his Saber and surrounded by Maul and his men, so really not sure what your point is.





Maul held off Windu and Secura, injuring Secura in the process. That's not the same thing as Maul stalemating Windu.

How many times has Ventress held off Skywalker and Kenobi together? Does that mean Ventress would stalemate Skywalker in a 1 vs 1 to the end?

What about Kenobi fighting off Maul and Opress?


Fact is though as of TCW Maul has consistently struggled to defeat Kenobi, whilst Dooku has consistently Owned Kenobi, with TK and with Sabers. So that IS Proof that Dooku is still above Maul in Sabers and in the Force Imho.

But hey that's not the end of the story. Dooku's dead whilst Maul's still alive, so perhaps Maul will grow more powerful by the next time we see him. At that point the Maul vs Dooku debate could be more interesting, but until then it's pretty one sided.

Dooku only defeated AotC Kenobi. And he defeated him in RotS via force attacks not via fencing.

Maul defeated TCW Kenobi, who is more powerful than AotC and close RotS version.

He also owned him 3 times with the force attacks.
force choke in Sith Hunters
force choke - force pull and wrist his hand via martial art in season 5 episode 16
force blast in season 5 episode 01

Kenobi can defeat Savage Opress, because he can deflect Savage's brute strength via soresu (that's something Dooku can't with makashi) but that doesn't mean he can defeat Maul. Maul already defeated him in lightsaber combat in TCW via using dun moch, which means he is at least good at lightsaber combat or better and much better TK power.

p1fSg_mCId8

Dooku is not superior to Obi-Wan in RotS either, that is why he used force attacks to defeat him.

Not to mention, Maul was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious and kicked him from torso, similar feat that while fighting against Mace Windu kicking Aayla Secura, or speedblitzing Magnaguards etc.

DARTH POWER
What the heck man? I'm trying not to facepalm.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku only defeated AotC Kenobi. And he defeated him in RotS via force attacks not via fencing..

Maul defeated TCW Kenobi, who is more powerful than AotC and close RotS version..


No Dooku was kicking TCW Kenobi's butt without using Force attacks in TCW Season 6.

And this while he was backed up by frigging Skywalker.

Originally posted by Marco1907
He also owned him 3 times with the force attacks.
force choke in Sith Hunters
force choke - force pull and wrist his hand via martial art in season 5 episode 16
force blast in season 5 episode 01

Apart from Sith Hunters none of the above were fair 1 on 1 scenarios.

And none of them compares to the way Dooku casually KO'd ROTS Kenobi via TK. Whilst simultaneously fighting off Skywalker no less.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi can defeat Savage Opress, because he can deflect Savage's brute strength via soresu (that's something Dooku can't with makashi) but that doesn't mean he can defeat Maul. Maul already defeated him in lightsaber combat in TCW via using dun moch, which means he is at least good at lightsaber combat or better and much better TK power.

You've said yourself, that he was only winning that fight via Dun Moch.

Kenobi was actually winning that fight before the Dun Moch and before Kenobi had to help Ventress.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is not superior to Obi-Wan in RotS either, that is why he used force attacks to defeat him.

Or he used Force attacks because he was fighting off 2 formidable opponents simultaneously.

Dooku was clearly superior to TCW Season 6 Kenobi. There's not much difference between Kenobi that late into TCW and ROTS Kenobi (if any at all). And even if Kenobi did radically improve since then, that has zero bearing on a Dooku vs Maul fight considering Maul never fought ROTS Kenobi. Maul fought the Kenobi who was getting trashed by Dooku in Sabers.

Plus it also proves Dooku can Force stomp a more powerful Kenobi, so again Maul is not Dooku's equal in Sabers or in The Force. And the Kenobi fights prove that.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Not to mention, Maul was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious and kicked him from torso, similar feat that while fighting against Mace Windu kicking Aayla Secura, or speedblitzing Magnaguards etc.


Sidious kicked his ass, even when he was backed up by Opress. So don't know what your trying to prove by bringing that up. In any case Dooku, all by himself mind you, put up a much better fight against Yoda (Sidious's equal).

So what, Ventress has fought Kenobi and Skywalker together and kicked Kenobi. How on earth does that make either Maul or Ventress Dooku's equal? It doesn't.

Marco1907
Kenobi is the wrong comparision on this one. Dooku is like kryptonite for Obi-Wan. Dooku hardly defeats Anakin, (and he is Obi-Wan's level) , Dooku's style will be not good against Maul, but it is very good against Soresu, because soresu doesn't have any threat to Makashi, you need physical and kinetic assaults for defeating Dooku.

So saying, Anakin defeated Dooku because he is the chosen one. It is a really dumb explanation ... There is a reason for Anakin beating Dooku while he failed to beat Obi-Wan. Otherwise Anakin can defeat Sidious and Yoda because he is the chosen one, is he not ?

Same Dooku get ragdolled by Savage Opress, you can clearly see his weaknessess here,

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/gfhgfh_zpse32e7a26.gif

While Obi-Wan successfully defeated Savage Opress via lightsaber combat, you see ?

Obi-Wan is not a good comparision for this, Anakin and Savage is. Obi-Wan's style is more suitable for defeating likes of Anakin, Savage and Maul. (And yet, he still failed to defeat Maul in TCW) While Dooku's style is more suitable for defeating Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress etc.

Nephthys
Personally I think Dooku could have defended against that attack if he'd been more prepared. Ventress wasn't overpowered by Savage in a saberlock and Dooku doesn't have trouble against her strength. And in RotS he blocked Obi-Wan and Anakin at once with one hand

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi is the wrong comparision on this one. Dooku is like kryptonite for Obi-Wan. Dooku hardly defeats Anakin, (and he is Obi-Wan's level) , Dooku's style will be not good against Maul, but it is very good against Soresu, because soresu doesn't have any threat to Makashi, you need physical and kinetic assaults for defeating Dooku.


Dooku struggles against Skywalker, yes. But he still has the edge over him. The difference between Dooku and Kenobi though is just too large to be solely down to a clash of forms.

Besides it's not just through lightsaber combat that Dooku trounces Kenobi. It's also through TK attacks. Maul has never been able to KO Kenobi so swiftly through via a TK attack.

Originally posted by Marco1907
So saying, Anakin defeated Dooku because he is the chosen one. It is a really dumb explanation ... There is a reason for Anakin beating Dooku while he failed to beat Obi-Wan. Otherwise Anakin can defeat Sidious and Yoda because he is the chosen one, is he not ?


I never said Anakin beats Dooku because he is the chosen one (although the reason he has so much raw power is due to his ridiculously high midi-chlorian count).

What I say is that Dooku is consistently a superior combatant to Skywalker. And the one time Skywalker beat him he began the fight with help, and almost got trounced himself.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Same Dooku get ragdolled by Savage Opress, you can clearly see his weaknessess here,


Doesn't matter because Maul's not as physically strong as Opress and doesn't have the raw natural power of Skywalker either.


Originally posted by Marco1907
While Obi-Wan successfully defeated Savage Opress via lightsaber combat, you see ?


And what? You honestly think Dooku can't beat Opress in Lightsaber combat 1 vs 1?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Obi-Wan is not a good comparision for this, Anakin and Savage is. Obi-Wan's style is more suitable for defeating likes of Anakin, Savage and Maul. (And yet, he still failed to defeat Maul in TCW) While Dooku's style is more suitable for defeating Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress etc.


Your seem to be putting Dooku down to Kenobi's level, and writing off his stompage of Kenobi as just "a clash of styles." But it's simply too large a difference, not only in Sabers but also in TK, to just write off as a clash of styles Imho.

Maul's not as physically strong as Opress and doesn't have the raw natural power of Skywalker either. So point is moot.

Like I said Maul is still alive, so still has a chance to improve and perhaps get closer to Dooku's level one day. But as of TCW, he's clearly not there yet.




Originally posted by Nephthys
And in RotS he blocked Obi-Wan and Anakin at once with one hand


Tzeen pointed out that was more of an optimum pivot point, which I can see. I doubt Dooku is as strong with one hand as both Kenobi and Skywalker combined.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I think Dooku could have defended against that attack if he'd been more prepared. Ventress wasn't overpowered by Savage in a saberlock and Dooku doesn't have trouble against her strength. And in RotS he blocked Obi-Wan and Anakin at once with one hand

Well, Ventress is a little better than Dooku. She has H2H combat feats, while Dooku has not. Still she was losing to Savage though.

When there is too much difference, like ;

Savage > Maul >= Anakin > Obi-Wan > Ventress > Dooku

Dooku can't make bladelock with Savage, that is why he was escaping from that because he know that as well.

Full fight ;
2S2bY8JY5Fk

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And what? You honestly think Dooku can't beat Opress in Lightsaber combat 1 vs 1?


Yes, Dooku can't defeat Savage in lightsaber combat. Because he lack that physical strength to bladelock.

Really ? Maul doesn't have Anakin's strength ? Why ? Don't tell me because he is the chosen one......

Maul has enough strength to utilize H2H combat on Savage, that is why he caught Savage's hand and twisted like this ;

http://i.hizliresim.com/LoQlVZ.jpg

Maul has enough physical strength to compete with Anakin.

Same Savage ragdolled Anakin once ;

WmBL_RF1DNk

Nephthys
Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, Ventress is a little better than Dooku. She has H2H combat feats, while Dooku has not. Still she was losing to Savage though.

When there is too much difference, like ;

Savage > Maul >= Anakin > Obi-Wan > Ventress > Dooku

I really hope this is based on strength.....

Well if Ventress is able to hold off Savage in a saberlock he can't be that much stronger than her.

Though you're ignoring that Dooku was actually very good at landing kicks on opponents.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907




Yes, Dooku can't defeat Savage in lightsaber combat. Because he lack that physical strength to bladelock.


You are kidding right? Watch the first 50 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2xe9okSSLA



Originally posted by Marco1907

Really ? Maul doesn't have Anakin's strength ? Why ? Don't tell me because he is the chosen one......


Because Anakin has tremendous raw power, not to mention a cybernetic arm.

Now prove to me Maul's strength is on Skywalker's level. Not that it matters considering throughout TCW Dooku fought Skywalker quite evenly in Sabers, and even in ROTS sent him flying smacking across the room with a kick, after fighting off BOTH him and Kenobi, before Anakin eventually defeated him.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul has enough strength to utilize H2H combat on Savage, that is why he caught Savage's hand and twisted like this ;

http://i.hizliresim.com/LoQlVZ.jpg


It was a martial art move. Doesn't prove he's anywhere near as strong as Opress. In fact when Opress was striking away at him Maul was giving ground in what seemed very much like Makashi ; )


Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul has enough physical strength to compete with Anakin.




Same Savage ragdolled Anakin once ;




Prove Maul's as strong as Anakin. The same Anakin Dooku has sent flying via a Beastly kick.

DARTH POWER
Also I'd like to point out Soresu isn't supposed to have a weakness (except for it's lack of offense). So to say Soresu just happens to be weak against Makashi is a faulty premise to begin with.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
I really hope this is based on strength.....

Well if Ventress is able to hold off Savage in a saberlock he can't be that much stronger than her.

Though you're ignoring that Dooku was actually very good at landing kicks on opponents.

Of course, it is just pure strength, and Asajj a little better than Dooku. When there is a great difference such as this (Savage vs Dooku) it is only natural that occurs.

For example, Asajj vs. Yoda - TK difference. Yoda mocked her with ease, unlocked her lightsaber etc.
However Yoda couldn't do the same with Dooku or TCW Maul. (unlocking his saber) because there are no enormous difference such as with Ventress's TK and his. (Yoda still beats Dooku & Maul, I am just saying he can't mock like he did to Ventress)

Dooku still doesn't have any H2H unarmed combat feat. All of his kicks are depends on finding an opening via fencing style, not via martial arts such as Ventress has ;

iLo1UAEnumo

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


Dooku still doesn't have any H2H unarmed combat feat. All of his kicks are depends on finding an openning via fencing style, not via martial arts such as Ventress has ;



Who cares? He has his Saber, so point is moot erm

Arhael
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is though as of TCW Maul has consistently struggled to defeat Kenobi, whilst Dooku has consistently Owned Kenobi, with TK and with Sabers.
When did Dooku own Kenobi in sabers, excluding AotC?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael
When did Dooku own Kenobi in sabers, excluding AotC?


In Sabers meaning in a Saber fight without use of TK.

That happens in TCW Season 6. Dooku owns Kenobi a couple of times through physical attacks (so yeah technically not saber slashes).

Whatever you want to call it, point is it seems quite clear Dooku is a superior combatant to Kenobi. Because so far it's 3/3 fights to Dooku, fights which range from AOTC through TCW and ending with ROTS.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907

What's got to do anything ? Maul especially wanted to be in shadow and not to reveal himself to the jedi order and republic, otherwise he would be bugsquash against vast army of republic. On the other hand, Dooku is the leader of the droid army, while Maul only controlled gangsters and part of the mandalore warriors death watch.

Everything. In TPM Mace inquires to Yoda 'which was destroyed, the Master or the apprentice'. When he finds out Dooku and him are working together he immediately puts Dooku as the stronger. Considering Mace was able to sense the power of Maul and Dooku respectively, he must have sensed a considerable difference in power in order to be able to plainly state Dooku as the DLOTS. Also "the strong will rule."



Easily? Bro he engaged him for like 2 seconds then got ****ing blindsided by a rocket. In that time Dooku babyshook a Jedi Master though demonstrating his clear superiority.

Marco1907
Didn't that in AotC, Dooku was using dun moch against Kenobi as well ?

''Master Kenobi you dissapoint me, Yoda holds you such a high steam.''

''Sure you can do better.''



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Everything. In TPM Mace inquires to Yoda 'which was destroyed, the Master or the apprentice'. When he finds out Dooku and him are working together he immediately puts Dooku as the stronger. Considering Mace was able to sense the power of Maul and Dooku respectively, he must have sensed a considerable difference in power in order to be able to plainly state Dooku as the DLOTS. Also "the strong will rule."


Mace thought that because of Dooku's old age ;



That doesn't mean anything, especially while you are claiming something is not clear, Mace never said Dooku should be master because he sensed that he is stronger. Let alone that, he is not sure either ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-024_zpse043fe0a.jpg

''Deception perhaps?'' Do you see the question mark ? How can you tell me that Windu is sure about this, or why didn't tell, I am sure Dooku is the master because I sense Maul is weaker, (it would be dumb because otherwise why the **** didn't you catch Darth Maul while Aayla Secura was helping you?)

Originally posted by Lord Stark


Easily? Bro he engaged him for like 2 seconds then got ****ing blindsided by a rocket. In that time Dooku babyshook a Jedi Master though demonstrating his clear superiority.

And do you think Dooku could babyshook that jedi master while fighting with Mace Windu ? You know, Mace Windu > Obi-Wan Kenobi (official info) and default un-amped Mace Windu = Count Dooku (another official info)

And Aayla Secura > Tiplee , since Tiplee doesn't have any good feats unlike Aayla.

Marco1907
Alright, if we are going to play with that way, then how about Maul saying ''serve me Dooku''

Because Maul sensed that he is stronger than Dooku,

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-009_zpsd3486427.jpg

''Now I suggest you abandon Sidious and serve me.''

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Alright, if we are going to play with that way, then how about Maul saying ''serve me Dooku''

Because Maul sensed that he is stronger than Dooku,


''Now I suggest you abandon Sidious and serve me.''


Well the intention was to have Dooku serve him and Mother Talzin.

Not that it matters. It's not like Maul would offer Dooku to be Maul's master Lol. Especially when Dooku was Maul's prisoner.


Lord Stark's point is valid though. Mace jumped to the assumption that Dooku was the Master because he knew Dooku to be more powerful. Not because Dooku is older. Dooku is older than Sidious, but Sidious is his Master. With Sith, everyone knows the more powerful one will Ultimately be the Master.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the intention was to have Dooku serve him and Mother Talzin.

Not that it matters. It's not like Maul would offer Dooku to be Maul's master Lol. Especially when Dooku was Maul's prisoner.


Lord Stark's point is valid though. Mace jumped to the assumption that Dooku was the Master because he knew Dooku to be more powerful. Not because Dooku is older. Dooku is older than Sidious, but Sidious is his Master. With Sith, everyone knows the more powerful one will Ultimately be the Master.

No because Sidious was the chancellor, and republic is stronger than CIS.

Windu never said that Dooku should be the master because he is the stronger.

Maul was the leader of the gangsters and mandalore which is much weaker than CIS and republic.

I just showed the part why Windu thinks that way, because he think that Dooku trained Maul ;




Dooku being prisoner means nothing, he never said ''I am stronger than you, so I refuse.'' Means Dooku accepted the fact that Maul is the stronger one.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
No because Sidious was the chancellor, and republic is stronger than CIS.

Windu never said that Dooku should be the master because he is the stronger.

Maul was the leader of the gangsters and mandalore which is much weaker than CIS and republic.


CIS wasn't around at the time of TPM.



Originally posted by Marco1907
I just showed the part why Windu thinks that way, because he think that Dooku trained Maul ;


But Dooku would only remain Master as long as he is more powerful.

The Jedi knows that's how the Sith operate.




Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku being prisoner means nothing, he never said ''I am stronger than you, so I refuse.'' Means Dooku accepted the fact that Maul is the stronger one.


What? He accepted because he had no choice. He was the prisoner remember. Maul would have killed Dooku had he rejected.


Dooku > Maul > Opress.

Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

Do you think Maul is stupid enough to ask that ? He has force sense you know, he can sense Dooku's power, which means they are at the same level at worst.

Dooku was not a prisoner when they were fighting against Jedi, he had his lightsaber and he would try to ran from the jedi. And also, Maul and his men tried to cover themselves, because that was Maul's main idea, shadow collective. If not he would be squash against republic.

Do you see this ? Maul's guard didn't said ''Lord Maul'', instead ''Lord ---'' means that they were trying to show the impression that working for CIS.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-021_zpsc0f418e9.jpg

And Mace's first sentence ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-018_zps4729d125.jpg

''This has gone far enough Dooku!'' Because Mace knows that CIS is the main enemy and Dooku is the leader of them. He doesn't know that Dooku was a prisoner of Maul, that is why he thought that Maul trained by Dooku and he was the apprentice.

And still, Mace was not sure. ''Deception perhaps?'' While Mace never said Dooku is the stronger one, and author of the comic says Mace think that because of Dooku's old age.

Also, If Dooku was the stronger one, he should've go for Mace & Aayla duo, instead of Kenobi and Tiplee.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

Do you think Maul is stupid enough to ask that ? He has force sense you know, he can sense Dooku's power, which means they are at the same level at worst.


Just as Mace can sense the power of both Maul & Dooku, yet immediately assumes Dooku is the Master and Maul is the Apprentice.

Also Maul know Dooku would not just serve him, but also Mother Talzin. There's no way Dooku could overpower them both, plus Maul's army.

Dooku basically had no choice in that situation.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku was not a prisoner when they were fighting against Jedi, he had his lightsaber and he would try to ran from the jedi. And also, Maul and his men tried to cover themselves, because that was Maul's main idea, shadow collective. If not he would be squash against republic.


Dooku agreed to help Maul as part of Sidious's plan to find Talzin.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you see this ? Maul's guard didn't said ''Lord Maul'', instead ''Lord ---'' means that they were trying to show the impression that working for CIS.


So what?



And Mace's first sentence ;



Originally posted by Marco1907
''This has gone far enough Dooku!'' Because Mace knows that CIS is the main enemy and Dooku is the leader of them. He doesn't know that Dooku was a prisoner of Maul, that is why he thought that Maul trained by Dooku and he was the apprentice.

Yeah but Mace also knows if Maul was more powerful than Dooku he would have overthrown Dooku by now and taken over the Sith himself.

Also as far as Windu knows Maul could be the Master behind closed doors, with his apprentice Dooku just being the face of the CIS. That is how Maul was ruling the Madalorians after all.

So yeah fact is Windu naturally assumed Dooku was Maul's master because Dooku is Older and more Powerful.

If there was any doubt to that, then Mace wouldn't have jumped to the assumption that Dooku is the Master. But he did.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And still, Mace was not sure. ''Deception perhaps?'' While Mace never said Dooku is the stronger one, and author of the comic says Mace think that because of Dooku's old age.


It was Sidious who put the doubt in Mace's head. If there was any doubt to who was the more powerful, then Mace wouldn't have jumped to the assumption that Dooku is the Master in the first place.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Also, If Dooku was the stronger one, he should've go for Mace & Aayla duo, instead of Kenobi and Tiplee.


They just went for the closer foes.

It's not like either Maul or Dooku said, you go for him, I'll go for them.

Besides Dooku killed one of his opponents and would have killed Kenobi given more time, so it was the right play.

FreshestSlice
Dooku wouldn't have killed Obi-Wan. Sidious would be miffed.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dooku wouldn't have killed Obi-Wan. Sidious would be miffed.


Well could have killed him if he wanted to.

Actually he couldn't. OT rules made PT Kenobi invincible.

Marco1907
It seems to me that some people are forgetting Maul has become more powerful in TCW,

Here is the quote says that he has become more powerful than his TPM version ;



-Taken from ; Shadow Conspiracy

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
Didn't that in AotC, Dooku was using dun moch against Kenobi as well ?

''Master Kenobi you dissapoint me, Yoda holds you such a high steam.''

''Sure you can do better.''





Mace thought that because of Dooku's old age ;



That doesn't mean anything, especially while you are claiming something is not clear, Mace never said Dooku should be master because he sensed that he is stronger. Let alone that, he is not sure either ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-024_zpse043fe0a.jpg

''Deception perhaps?'' Do you see the question mark ? How can you tell me that Windu is sure about this, or why didn't tell, I am sure Dooku is the master because I sense Maul is weaker, (it would be dumb because otherwise why the **** didn't you catch Darth Maul while Aayla Secura was helping you?)



And do you think Dooku could babyshook that jedi master while fighting with Mace Windu ? You know, Mace Windu > Obi-Wan Kenobi (official info) and default un-amped Mace Windu = Count Dooku (another official info)

And Aayla Secura > Tiplee , since Tiplee doesn't have any good feats unlike Aayla.
That's not the way the Sith work bro. 'The strong will rule'. They are not Jedi where the oldest and wisest are in charge. Mace didn't think Dooku was the master because he had more resources at his disposal, he thought that because Dooku is more powerful than Maul is. Again Mace would be a very good resource on this considering he's sensed both of their power and has fought both of them.


Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

Do you think Maul is stupid enough to ask that ? He has force sense you know, he can sense Dooku's power, which means they are at the same level at worst.

Dooku was not a prisoner when they were fighting against Jedi, he had his lightsaber and he would try to ran from the jedi. And also, Maul and his men tried to cover themselves, because that was Maul's main idea, shadow collective. If not he would be squash against republic.

Do you see this ? Maul's guard didn't said ''Lord Maul'', instead ''Lord ---'' means that they were trying to show the impression that working for CIS.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-021_zpsc0f418e9.jpg

And Mace's first sentence ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-018_zps4729d125.jpg

''This has gone far enough Dooku!'' Because Mace knows that CIS is the main enemy and Dooku is the leader of them. He doesn't know that Dooku was a prisoner of Maul, that is why he thought that Maul trained by Dooku and he was the apprentice.

And still, Mace was not sure. ''Deception perhaps?'' While Mace never said Dooku is the stronger one, and author of the comic says Mace think that because of Dooku's old age.

Also, If Dooku was the stronger one, he should've go for Mace & Aayla duo, instead of Kenobi and Tiplee.

Lol hubris from Maul. Character statements about their own power, particularly Sith are often fallacious.

Even Dooku who's not really prone to such talk tells Yoda.
"I've become more powerful than any Jedi, even you."

If we use those statements

Maul>Dooku>Yoda

Also the reason Mace and Aayla went after Maul could be a variety of reasons.
1. They thought they could take Maul out of the picture faster than Dooku could take down Tiplee and Kenobi.
2. Mace knows Kenobi fighting Maul will bring out many conflicting emotions, including feelings that'll lure him to the Dark Side.
3. Dooku and Mace used to be buddies, fighting him could bring conflicting emotions. We've already seen in AOTCs Mace was hesitant to kill Dooku.

Nephthys
I would have seriously liked a Dooku vs Maul fight. A real missed opportunity there.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
I would have seriously liked a Dooku vs Maul fight. A real missed opportunity there.

Nah they need Maul alive for Rebels.

But yeah it would have been cool, that and a canon Dooku vs. Mace fight would have been nifty.

Nephthys
They could have done a fight and had Maul run away. Or gain the upper hand through indirect means.

Hell, what if they're fighting then Anakin and Obi-Wan burst in and they call a temporary truce to take out the Jedi, Maul vs Kenobi + Anakin vs Dooku. That would have been badass.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
They could have done a fight and had Maul run away. Or gain the upper hand through indirect means.

Hell, what if they're fighting then Anakin and Obi-Wan burst in and they call a temporary truce to take out the Jedi, Maul vs Kenobi + Anakin vs Dooku. That would have been badass.

Staahhp, too cool for a comic.

Nephthys
And then Savage is resurrected as a zombie and fights Grievous.

Actually, GG vs Savage would have been a really neat fight. I wonder how Savage would deal with the 4 sabers. mmm

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
And then Savage is resurrected as a zombie and fights Grievous.

Actually, GG vs Savage would have been a really neat fight. I wonder how Savage would deal with the 4 sabers. mmm

Would have been awesome. I also wish they kept badass Krell around for more than that arc. He would have been a great villain.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
They could have done a fight and had Maul run away. Or gain the upper hand through indirect means.

Hell, what if they're fighting then Anakin and Obi-Wan burst in and they call a temporary truce to take out the Jedi, Maul vs Kenobi + Anakin vs Dooku. That would have been badass.


That would have been so cool, I would have hated them for life for not making the episodes.

But since the comic was pretty s*** I'm not too bothered they didn't make it.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Even Dooku who's not really prone to such talk tells Yoda.
"I've become more powerful than any Jedi, even you."

Even Dooku ? Dooku is selfish and proud man. That is why he told that to Yoda.

That's exactly proves my point, someone who is a proud man like Dooku was not saying that '' Wtf ?! I am stronger than you''

They are at the same level at worst, if Maul is not stupid enough to ask that of course.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
Even Dooku ? Dooku is selfish and proud man. That is why he told that to Yoda.

That's exactly proves my point, someone proud man like Dooku is not saying that '' Wtf ?! I am stronger than you''

They are at the same level at worst, if Maul is not stupid enough to ask that of course.

No...Dooku said he's more powerful than Yoda. That should be taken with as much weight as Maul saying Dooku serve me.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No...Dooku said he's more powerful than Yoda. That should be taken with as much weight as Maul saying Dooku serve me.

And Yoda said, ''much to learn, you still have.''

I didn't see any reply from Dooku about this matter.

FreshestSlice
Why do words only carry weight when they support you, but not when everyone in mythos, and outside including the author, say Maul is below Dooku?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Even Dooku ? Dooku is selfish and proud man. That is why he told that to Yoda.

That's exactly proves my point, someone who is a proud man like Dooku was not saying that '' Wtf ?! I am stronger than you''

They are at the same level at worst, if Maul is not stupid enough to ask that of course.

Your really clinging to straws here.

Vorpal Ruin
Darth Power should be commended for his patience, and Marco for his diligence.

Dooku>Maul in both Sabers and the force. Wiggle all you want, but that won't change it. The discussion was interesting though.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Darth Power should be commended for his patience, and Marco for his diligence.

Dooku>Maul in both Sabers and the force. Wiggle all you want, but that won't change it. The discussion was interesting though.

Maul is physically much stronger than Dooku and that's all he need to kick his old wimpy ass. (see: Anakin and Savage Opress)

Since there is no vast difference in speed (unlike with Darth Vader) Dooku can't use his other advantages against Maul.

Emperordmb
Again, there was more to it than power. Dooku being the face of the CIS is more valuable to Sidious than Maul being the head of the Shadow Collective.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Again, there was more to it than power. Dooku being the face of the CIS is more valuable to Sidious than Maul being the head of the Shadow Collective.

And there is also Grievous, he was working very well under the command of Dooku.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul is physically much stronger than Dooku and that's all he need to kick his old wimpy ass. (see: Anakin and Savage Opress)

He's fended off Anakin multiple times, and completely embarrassed Opress in their 1 v 1 training sessions.

Not that it matters because Maul is not as strong as either of those 2.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Since there is no vast difference in speed (unlike with Darth Vader) Dooku can't use his other advantages against Maul.

Dooku is the more skilled swordsman (master of ultimate fencing style), the more skilled combatant (look at his combined attacks fencing and physical and tk together), has better TK (look what he does to Obi-Wan and Ventress) and he is faster- (Maul is no faster than Obi-Wan in their fights, whilst Dooku is faster than Obi-Wan as confirmed by Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, and Dooku dances around Opress and Ventress).

Arhael
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In Sabers meaning in a Saber fight without use of TK.

That happens in TCW Season 6. Dooku owns Kenobi a couple of times through physical attacks (so yeah technically not saber slashes).

That's not really owning, more like gaining distance.

Keep in mind that while Kenobi was able to fight both Maul and Opress, Maul himself could fight Windu and Secura, which is both very impressive and comparable to how Dooku could fight Anakin and Kenobi.

That indicates that saber prowess of these characters is not that different. Force wise, however, Maul was able to Force handle Kenobi on more than one occasion. Cos of that I can't really see how Dooku is is firmly superior to Maul in anything. I am still willing to give Dooku slight advantage because he can consistently pull out things, while Maul needs to get proper angry before doing anything truly impressive.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael
That's not really owning, more like gaining distance.

Keep in mind that while Kenobi was able to fight both Maul and Opress, Maul himself could fight Windu and Secura, which is both very impressive and comparable to how Dooku could fight Anakin and Kenobi.

That indicates that saber prowess of these characters is not that different. Force wise, however, Maul was able to Force handle Kenobi on more than one occasion. Cos of that I can't really see how Dooku is is firmly superior to Maul in anything. I am still willing to give Dooku slight advantage because he can consistently pull out things, while Maul needs to get proper angry before doing anything truly impressive.

I think the difference is that Dooku was beating Kenobi while fighting off Skywalker. Kind of like how Kenobi was beating Opress while fighting off Maul.

Maul hasn't really defeated Kenobi using Tk. He's just pushed/blasted him away. And your right that it may have been a rage enhanced blast as well. That's why I see Dooku's Tk above Maul's. Also like you said Dooku pulls out that stuff more often and more randomly which adds to his overall combat prowess.

That's why in an all out situation (tk and sabers and physical hits- everything) I see Dooku as solidly above both Maul and Kenobi. And even without TK I'd at least give Dooku the edge.

Arhael
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think the difference is that Dooku was beating Kenobi while fighting off Skywalker. Kind of like how Kenobi was beating Opress while fighting off Maul.

Maul hasn't really defeated Kenobi using Tk. He's just pushed/blasted him away. And your right that it may have been a rage enhanced blast as well. That's why I see Dooku's Tk above Maul's. Also like you said Dooku pulls out that stuff more often and more randomly which adds to his overall combat prowess.

That's why in an all out situation (tk and sabers and physical hits- everything) I see Dooku as solidly above both Maul and Kenobi. And even without TK I'd at least give Dooku the edge.
Kicks are generally harder to defend and they work best as defensive techniques. If Kenobi fought defensively, Dooku wouldn't have that opportunity to kick or hip-throw. It's all circumstantial. You can't just assume that Dooku is better than Maul because he dealt with offensive Kenobi better than both Maul and Opress with defensive Kenobi.

Bottom line is that Dooku with half attention on Anakin can't possibly be more effective combatant than both Maul and Opress fully focused on Kenobi. It's all circumstantial. Maul proved himself in the fight against Windu and Secura that inability to defeat Kenobi with help of Opress is more to do with Kenobi's defensive capabilities rather than Maul's inferior skill.

Yes, you are right that Dooku is more consistent with his offensive Force capabilities, that's his advantage. That doesn't prove he would defeat Maul cos of that.
Windu is above both Maul and Dooku, yet, he did not Force handle Maul despite help from Secura. He doesn't seem have great skill in offensive Force use but it didn't stop him from defeating Sidious.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael


Bottom line is that Dooku with half attention on Anakin can't possibly be more effective combatant than both Maul and Opress fully focused on Kenobi.


Well that's not necessarily true. If Dooku is more skilled and faster than either Maul or Opress then he could be more capable of getting in hits on Kenobi than both of them. But I see your point.


Originally posted by Arhael
It's all circumstantial. Maul proved himself in the fight against Windu and Secura that inability to defeat Kenobi with help of Opress is more to do with Kenobi's defensive capabilities rather than Maul's inferior skill.


Agree it's all circumstantial. What helps Maul's case is that Kenobi never actually put him down. What doesn't help Maul's case is that he's never taken Kenobi out, even with help.

But looking at Grievous owning Kenobi in the unfinished Kyber Crystal arc, it seems as if Kenobi brings his A - Game to the table when fighting Maul, but he doesn't fight to that level in the majority of his fights.


Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, you are right that Dooku is more consistent with his offensive Force capabilities, that's his advantage. That doesn't prove he would defeat Maul cos of that.
Windu is above both Maul and Dooku, yet, he did not Force handle Maul despite help from Secura. He doesn't seem have great skill in offensive Force use but it didn't stop him from defeating Sidious.


I don't believe Windu is above Dooku just because he beat Sidious the one time. Like you said it's all circumstantial. Had Sidious not had to blitz 3 other Jedi first and begun the fight with his superior force powers like he did against the Maul Brothers, it would have been a very different fight.

Also had the Maul vs Windu and Secura fight gone on, then maybe Windu would have overpowered Maul with TK at some point in the fight. Like you said, Dooku doesn't TK Kenobi right away.

Dooku consistently beats the likes of Ventress and Kenobi. In fact he'd most likely beat them both together looking at his record of fights against them. Pretty sure that's above Maul. But looking at Maul's feats of Stomping Opress in seconds, shoving a Jedi craft, force choking Kenobi before he could even engage him and engaging Windu/Secura together, it's obvious Maul would make Dooku work hard for the win.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's fended off Anakin multiple times, and completely embarrassed Opress in their 1 v 1 training sessions.

Not that it matters because Maul is not as strong as either of those 2.



Dooku is the more skilled swordsman (master of ultimate fencing style), the more skilled combatant (look at his combined attacks fencing and physical and tk together), has better TK (look what he does to Obi-Wan and Ventress) and he is faster- (Maul is no faster than Obi-Wan in their fights, whilst Dooku is faster than Obi-Wan as confirmed by Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, and Dooku dances around Opress and Ventress).

- That's debatable. Anakin and Maul have same level strength tier, since Savage already ragdolled Anakin twice, while Savage never ragdolled Maul (in fact humiliated via martial art) Maul doesn't use djem-so like Anakin but he is using martial arts in lightsaber combat, his physical advantage is still valid. And since he is using juyo, he has kinetic power as well.

- Dooku may better duelist due to makashi, their TK level are close, and their speed is close. Maul is faster than Obi-Wan as well, just because Obi-Wan managed to deflect attacks of Maul that doesn't mean they are at the same speed, Anakin was faster than Obi-Wan but still they fought equally. TCW Maul is even faster than his TPM version, TCW Maul speedblitzed magnaguards which is never done by Obi-Wan, TCW Maul also tagged Darth Sidious I doubt Obi-Wan could do that. And TCW Maul also moved faster than Grievous can react (SoD 02) and subdued him with ease. Fought against Mace Windu (who is at least fast as Dooku and Fisto) and kicked Aayla Secura at the same time, I doubt Obi-Wan could do that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Had Sidious not had to blitz 3 other Jedi

Btw, Sidious didn't blitzed Kit Fisto, I can show you the book part where says Kit Fisto tagged Sidious for a while in that battle if you want.

Kit is faster than most of jedi council members (probably faster than Obi-Wan as well)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
- That's debatable. Anakin and Maul have same level strength tier, since Savage already ragdolled Anakin twice, while Savage never ragdolled Maul (in fact humiliated via martial art) Maul doesn't use djem-so like Anakin but he is using martial arts in lightsaber combat, his physical advantage is still valid. And since he is using juyo, he has kinetic power as well.

Yeah but Dooku has fended off Anakin in Sabers plenty of times. So he can fend off Maul too.

Originally posted by Marco1907
-- Dooku may better duelist due to makashi, their TK level are close, and their speed is close.


Yeah but if Dooku's only a little superior in each of those categories, it adds up and makes him noticeably superior all out.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul is faster than Obi-Wan as well, just because Obi-Wan managed to deflect attacks of Maul that doesn't mean they are at the same speed,


Don't see how. Kenobi blocked and/or dodged every one of Maul's attacks in 2 relatively lengthy duels.




Originally posted by Marco1907
Btw, Sidious didn't blitzed Kit Fisto, I can show you the book part where says Kit Fisto tagged Sidious for a while in that battle if you want.

Kit is faster than most of jedi council members (probably faster than Obi-Wan as well)


Well even in the movie, Fisto did trade a few blows with Sidious.

Trocity
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why do words only carry weight when they support you, but not when everyone in mythos, and outside including the author, say Maul is below Dooku?

Because Maul is his favorite character. I was there once, I used to think Exar Kun was the second strongest Sith after Sidious. He will learn.


Eventually.

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