Count Dooku vs. Savage Opress (lightsaber only)

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Marco1907
Who wins ?

No force attacks, or force lightning. Only lightsaber combat.

carthage
Savage gets stomped

Marco1907
Originally posted by carthage
Savage gets stomped

How ? Dooku can't bladelock with Savage.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/gfhgfh_zpse32e7a26.gif

And Savage was using a bigger blade than any standart lightsaber, he is really a physical monster.

Nephthys
Dooku can still dance around him.

DARTH POWER
O2xe9okSSLA


No one's going to agree with you on this one Marco.

Nalaniel
Dooku stomps.

Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

You are kidding right ? That was training, Savage was learning to use a lightsaber.

He even failed to unlock both sides of his double bladed lightsaber there xD

ares834
Dooku stomps.

erm

Spite.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

You are kidding right ? That was training, Savage was learning to use a lightsaber.

He even failed to unlock both sides of his double bladed lightsaber there xD And savage didn't improve as much as you are implying

Selenial
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

You are kidding right ? That was training, Savage was learning to use a lightsaber.

He even failed to unlock both sides of his double bladed lightsaber there xD

Savage barely improved.

He was doing the exact same things against Sidious, the only difference being Sidious blocked instead of dodged to give Maul and Savage the idea that they could win.

Sinious
Dooku.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


He even failed to unlock both sides of his double bladed lightsaber there xD

What? Lol

That's what happens when Opress fights a Dooku who is ready for him 1 on 1.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Selenial
Savage barely improved.

He was doing the exact same things against Sidious, the only difference being Sidious blocked instead of dodged to give Maul and Savage the idea that they could win.

-Savage didn't even know how to use a lightsaber.

O2xe9okSSLA

-Savage learned how to use a lightsaber.

2S2bY8JY5Fk


Originally posted by Selenial

He was doing the exact same things against Sidious, the only difference being Sidious blocked instead of dodged to give Maul and Savage the idea that they could win.
Are you sure ?

8PY-wcY-C0I

''That creature Savage Opress is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes''

NTJack0
Dooku beats him down like a tai whore.

DARTH POWER
Marco1907 you've not managed to convince even 1 poster here that Opress would take Dooku in a Saber fight. Stick to Maul vs Dooku buddy. You might be able to convince 1 or 2 people with that one.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Marco1907
How ? Dooku can't bladelock with Savage.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/gfhgfh_zpse32e7a26.gif

And he doesn't need to. That's what sidesteps, evasions and deflections are for.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And Savage was using a bigger blade than any standart lightsaber, he is really a physical monster.

True, but that really doesn't mean much. Physical strength means little in a sword fight. Skill and precision beat power.

Lord Stark
Dooku godstomps wtf is this shit.

carthage
Originally posted by NTJack0
Dooku beats him down like a tai whore.

Thai*

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dooku godstomps wtf is this shit.

Dooku fanboy alert ! rolling on floor laughing

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku fanboy alert ! rolling on floor laughing


Really?

He's a fanboy for having an opinion shared by pretty much everyone here?


Like I said you've not managed to convince even 1 person here that Opress stands a chance against Dooku in a 1 vs 1 Saber fight.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

He's a fanboy for having an opinion shared by pretty much everyone here?


Like I said you've not managed to convince even 1 person here that Opress stands a chance against Dooku in a 1 vs 1 Saber fight.

Because no one see the truth as I have. Dooku's skills are irrelevant against Savage, how can he defeat him while he can't deflect his blows ? It makes no sense.

These people are saying that ''Dooku wins'' without presenting any logical reason.

(Except one ; Nephthys)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Because no one see the truth as I have.


Spoken like a true convert to the dark side stick out tongue



Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku's skills are irrelevant against Savage, how can he defeat him while he can't deflect his blows ? It makes no sense.

These people are saying that ''Dooku wins'' without presenting any logical reason.

(Except one ; Nephthys)


Because no one buys that one blow that knocked Dooku over is what would happen Every Time they trade blows. Whilst everyone can see Dooku is clearly faster and more skilled.

It honestly requires no explanation. You've taken this "Dooku can't handle kinetic energy" too far when your claiming Dooku can't just take an Untrained Brute like Savage, just because of his strength.

Their trianing session showed how Dooku handles him 1 on 1. There's no proof he had any more than that 1 training session for Sabers or that his training made any significant impact on his combat prowess.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Spoken like a true convert to the dark side stick out tongue






Because no one buys that one blow that knocked Dooku over is what would happen Every Time they trade blows. Whilst everyone can see Dooku is clearly faster and more skilled.

It honestly requires no explanation. You've taken this "Dooku can't handle kinetic energy" too far when your claiming Dooku can't just take an Untrained Brute like Savage, just because of his strength.

Their trianing session showed how Dooku handles him 1 on 1. There's no proof he had any more than that 1 training session for Sabers or that his training made any significant impact on his combat prowess.

You know what's funny? That the video you posted was uploaded by him. laughing

Regardless, Makashi's weakness to power duellists is heavily overrated. Not only that, but that feat is inconsitent. Savage's strenght in terms of duelling was handled well even by Ventress and Obi-Wan, both of whom were physically stomped by Dooku, and he has slapped Savage's ligtsaber aside with casual ease during training (though the latter probably learned to use his rage after that).

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nargaroth
You know what's funny? That the video you posted was uploaded by him. laughing




LOL I didn't even notice. It was high up on youtube's list if you search "Dooku trains Savage Opress"

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Ventress and Obi-Wan, both of whom were physically stomped by Dooku,

You got to be joking. How is Dooku stomping Obi-Wan & Ventress ? Do you really think Dooku would beat Ventress & Obi-Wan without using his sword ? Really ?

Dooku kicks only via fencing and finding an opening (or speed/quickness). Is that so hard to understand ?

Dooku has no unarmed combat feats, while Ventress and Obi-Wan have. Both Ventress and Obi-Wan would beat Dooku in a unarmed H2H combat battle. And they are physically stronger and durable than old man Dooku (83 years old)

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Marco1907
You got to be joking. How is Dooku stomping Obi-Wan & Ventress ? Do you really think Dooku would beat Ventress & Obi-Wan without using his sword ? Really ?


Yes
Originally posted by Marco1907

Dooku has no unarmed combat feats, while Ventress and Obi-Wan have. Both Ventress and Obi-Wan would beat Dooku in a unarmed H2H combat battle. And they are physically stronger and durable than old man Dooku (83 years old)
Being younger doesn't make you stronger when your opponent far outstripes you in the Force.

Marco1907
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes

Being younger doesn't make you stronger when your opponent far outstripes you in the Force.

Yes it is. Watch the mortis episodes, where that says Father become weak because of his age.
Yoda become weak in RotJ because of his age. Obi-Wan become weak in ANH because of his age.

Sidious become physically weak and began to use walking stick in sequel trilogy because of his age, do you think Vader with one hand could throw TPM/RotS Sidious to the reactor shaft that ease ? I don't think so.

Trocity
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku fanboy alert ! rolling on floor laughing

Well I mean... it's clear you're a Dooku hater. erm

Marco1907
Originally posted by Trocity
Well I mean... it's clear you're a Dooku hater. erm

No I am bias hater smokin'

When did I ever denied Dooku's ability ? Did I deny that he is fast, strong with TK, skilled ? No, these people are claiming that Dooku is physically stronger than Obi-Wan and Ventress which is completely absurd.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Marco1907
]Yes it is. Watch the mortis episodes, where that says Father become weak because of his age.

He's still the strongest character in the mythos.

And he's still the strongest Jedi.

And he can still go toe-to-toe with a powerhouse like Vader, who's age wasn't catching up to him.

He did that because his power was so great, it began destroying his body.

If caught by surprise? Yes. Vader is a physical powerhouse.

Based on this post alone, I'm not sure if agreeing with your line of thinking is a good thing.

Trocity
Saying Dooku would lose to Savage in a sabers only is hate, imo. He'd clearly trash him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


When did I ever denied Dooku's ability ?


Your putting his Saber Prowess below Opress's.

So of course your denying his ability.

In the other thread you seem to be suggesting that Maul/Kenobi/Dooku are all on the same level, but only win/lose due to a clash of styles.

But that's wrong. Dooku is clearly more powerful than Kenobi, which makes him more powerful than Maul, because Maul At Best is just slightly more powerful than Kenobi.

Marco1907

DARTH POWER

Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

Dooku = master of the makashi

Obi-Wan = master of the soresu

That's your choice. If you want defensive technique and better at deflecting blaster bolts from droids then Soresu.
If you want quick sword plays, and better at lightsaber duels then makashi is better.

Lets not forget that, same Anakin defeated Dooku while failed at Kenobi. That also indicates Kenobi's advantage on Dooku.
Dooku defeating Obi-Wan is a good feat, but also Obi-Wan defeating Anakin another good feat which is Dooku couldn't do with lightsaber combat.

FreshestSlice
Yeah, I think we're done here.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

Dooku = master of the makashi

Obi-Wan = master of the soresu

That's your choice. If you want defensive technique and better at deflecting blaster bolts from droids then Soresu.
If you want quick sword plays, and better at lightsaber duels then makashi is better.

Lets not forget that, same Anakin defeated Dooku while failed at Kenobi. That also indicates Kenobi's advantage on Dooku.
Dooku defeating Obi-Wan is a good feat, but also Obi-Wan defeating Anakin another good feat which is Dooku couldn't do with lightsaber combat.


Right so your basically saying Dooku </= Kenobi in "Pure Sabers."

That's Fine. What about Dooku owning Kenobi with TK? And what about Dooku overpowering Kenobi with Physical Attacks?

Is Dooku the more powerful combatant in an all out or not? And is it a small difference or a large one?

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Right so your basically saying Dooku </= Kenobi in "Pure Sabers."

That's Fine. What about Dooku owning Kenobi with TK? And what about Dooku overpowering Kenobi with Physical Attacks?

Is Dooku the more powerful combatant in an all out or not? And is it a small difference or a large one?

Same difference with TCW Maul who have grown more powerful than his TPM version,

I would put Maul and Dooku in category 8 while Kenobi 7 because of the TK differences.

However they are equal in lightsaber combat, Maul master at juyo / niman and martial arts such as teras kasi etc. , Dooku master at makashi, Obi-Wan master at soresu/ataru.

Physically Maul is superior, much more durable, stronger and fast as Dooku.

Dooku lacks strength and durability, but he has extra weapon such as force lightning, that's compensate it.

Obi-Wan is much more durable than Dooku, and stronger but not fast as Dooku or TCW Maul. But Obi-Wan has sokan mastery which is using the environment as his ally, it can be very useful sometimes (just like it worked on Savage Opress at floorum and Anakin at mustafar)

Also Obi-Wan has very keen senses,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzej95vAmIQ

probably he develop this ability with soresu mastery, that also compensate his speed.

Lord Stark
Is this a joke? On Oba Dia Dooku nearly killed Kenobi with a kick...then threw him to the ground and broke his ribs. Its pretty clear that Kenobi would have been dead were it not for Anakin.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Is this a joke? On Oba Dia Dooku nearly killed Kenobi with a kick...then threw him to the ground and broke his ribs. Its pretty clear that Kenobi would have been dead were it not for Anakin.

Nearly killed ? Did you watch that properly ? Obi-Wan had only one time trouble because of that pit, then he continued without problem ;

xPVv_jHmmN4

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
Nearly killed ? Did you watch that properly ? Obi-Wan had only one time trouble because of that pit, then he continued without problem ;

xPVv_jHmmN4

By that logic Kenobi only had trouble with Maul in TPM when he got forced pushed into a pit. And yet no one would dare argue TPM Kenobi>TPM Maul in sabers.

Also without problem?
1:35 Dooku throws him around like chump change
1:38 When he gets up Kenobi is clearly clutching his side.

DarthAnt66
Dooku's command of the Force far outstrips Savage. His Force-augmented strength (which is dictated by ones command of the Force) will make up for Savage's superior muscle enough to make it not a factor. Dooku wins, obviously.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
By that logic Kenobi only had trouble with Maul in TPM when he got forced pushed into a pit. And yet no one would dare argue TPM Kenobi>TPM Maul in sabers.

Also without problem?
1:35 Dooku throws him around like chump change
1:38 When he gets up Kenobi is clearly clutching his side.

First, TPM Kenobi was amped due to Qui-Gon's death. So that was amped TPM Kenobi. (said by the TPM Novel)

Dooku kicked Obi-Wan, then Obi-Wan didn't loss his saber until that pit showed up. TPM Maul hurled Obi-Wan with the force and when that happened Obi-Wan was already disarmed by it.

Clutching his side means nothing since he continued, same effect made by Maul in their first battle at Revenge. Yet Obi-Wan continued to fight.

http://i.hizliresim.com/EE3Zzz.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's command of the Force far outstrips Savage. His Force-augmented strength (which is dictated by ones command of the Force) will make up for Savage's superior muscle enough to make it not a factor. Dooku wins, obviously.

No force attacks, read the OP. Otherwise Dooku beats him with force lightning, since Savage doesn't know how to deflect it.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
First, TPM Kenobi was amped due to Qui-Gon's death. So that was amped TPM Kenobi. (said by the TPM Novel)

Dooku kicked Obi-Wan, then Obi-Wan didn't loss his saber until that pit showed up. TPM Maul hurled Obi-Wan with the force and when that happened Obi-Wan was already disarmed by it.

This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. When you are fighting someone you need to be aware of your surroundings. So yes Dooku almost killed him with a single well placed kick, and if he didn't have to fend off Skywalker he would have easily put red plasma through his skull while he was disarmed.



Yeah it does. It means Dooku landed a significant blow on him that if it weren't a 2v1 would have easily given Dooku plenty of openings.

Nephthys
One's command of the Force comes into lightsaber duels too, in enhanced physical abilities, precognition, senses, refelexes etc.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
One's command of the Force comes into lightsaber duels too, in enhanced physical abilities, precognition, senses, refelexes etc.

Yup.
http://i.stack.imgur.com/kcEjs.jpg

Anakin is far stronger than Savage with his mechanical hand and massive force reserves. And yet here we see Dooku block his and Kenobi's attack with one hand

Nephthys
I'd say Savage is actually stronger than Anakin personally, though Anakin can become stronger with his massive power and in fact did in that fight.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. When you are fighting someone you need to be aware of your surroundings. So yes Dooku almost killed him with a single well placed kick, and if he didn't have to fend off Skywalker he would have easily put red plasma through his skull while he was disarmed.



Yeah it does. It means Dooku landed a significant blow on him that if it weren't a 2v1 would have easily given Dooku plenty of openings.

Nevermind, I already told that comparing Obi-Wan and Dooku battles are the wrong examples. Because Dooku has the makashi advantage over Kenobi's soresu.

Anakin and Savage examples are better, so with your logic, Savage nearly killed Dooku with one heavy stroke if they were fighting in Oba Diah right ?

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/gfhgfh_zpse32e7a26.gif

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark


Anakin is far stronger than Savage with his mechanical hand and massive force reserves.

Lol @ that..... laughing

WmBL_RF1DNk

Do you see the parts where that Savage ragdollls Anakin ? Twice ?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Marco1907
Because no one see the truth as I have. Dooku's skills are irrelevant against Savage, how can he defeat him while he can't deflect his blows ? It makes no sense.

No, what makes no sense is claiming that Dooku's skills are irrelevant against Savage.

Firstly he can deflect Savage's blows fine. He just can't block them. Second, he can always use sidesteps and evasions.

Originally posted by Marco1907
These people are saying that ''Dooku wins'' without presenting any logical reason.

I've given you a logical reason; As I said before, skill and precision beat power. In a swordfight a weaker but more skilled person will nearly always defeat a stronger but unskilled foe.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Regardless, Makashi's weakness to power duellists is heavily overrated.

It's ridiculously overrated. Let's take a look at what that line actually states:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

Simple solution. Don't go head to head. That is not required to beat an opponent. Just use deflections and evasions rather than trying to slug it out.

Trocity
Maul lost with high ground.

Marco1907
Originally posted by chilled monkey



It's ridiculously overrated. Let's take a look at what that line actually states:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."



Interestingly, Obi-Wan doesn't have that problem.

So most people are overrating Dooku because he consistently beats Obi-Wan, while ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan easily stopped Anakin's kinetic power.

Which indicates that ; Rock, Paper, Scissors

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


I would put Maul and Dooku in category 8 while Kenobi 7 because of the TK differences.




I don't know why your putting Maul's TK on the same level as Dooku's, when he's never actually defeated Kenobi with it, whilst Dooku clearly has.

In fact I don't know how you can put Maul in a whole category above Kenobi, when he's only defeated him once by using Dun Moch.

FreshestSlice
Except Obi-Wan knows Anakin's stlye inside and out and fought him when he didn't fully embrace the Dark Side. Even then, Obi-Wan was geting his face kicked in the entire duel.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by chilled monkey




It's ridiculously overrated. Let's take a look at what that line actually states:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

Simple solution. Don't go head to head. That is not required to beat an opponent. Just use deflections and evasions rather than trying to slug it out.


And in fact it goes on to say "especially while fending off a second attacker" or something like that.

So yeah a 1 vs 1, where Dooku deflects, evades and gives ground, is a completely different situation.




Originally posted by Marco1907
Interestingly, Obi-Wan doesn't have that problem.

So most people are overrating Dooku because he consistently beats Obi-Wan, while ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan easily stopped Anakin's kinetic power.

Which indicates that ; Rock, Paper, Scissors

Do you want me to count just how many times Dooku has also fended off Anakin?

Just watch TCW. They fight like... A lot.

McP
So Kenobi was in disadvantage because of Makashi > Soresu? Then Dooku was in disadvantage as well, because Makashi < multiple opponents.

Anyway, Dooku was a true master swordsman: he was able to find an answer for every Makashi's disadvantages:
- Dooku was the one, who led the Jedi team against Mandalorians, and won (and it's hard to find better distance-fighters then Manadalorians);
- Dooku was able to fight multiple opponents at once easily;
- Dooku could overpower finest Djem So master (aided by other fighter) in a saberlock (as he did against Anakin and Obi-Wan on IH; which let him ot throw thm both off-balance and catch them off-guard).

Dooku - unlike Obi-Wan for example - was also able to overcome his advanced age. Even as an old man, he was faster and more agile then Kenobi in his prime.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say Savage is actually stronger than Anakin personally, though Anakin can become stronger with his massive power and in fact did in that fight.

I don't think so. Anakin has far greater force reserves and a mechanical arm. And even if we were to say that as true, Yoda and Sidious are both stronger than Savage, and Dooku was able to parry blows from Yoda. So either way Savage isn't brute forcing his way through Dooku's defense.

Nephthys
Savage is much bigger than him and is enhanced by magic. He's a physical monster who, as Marco for once correctly pointed out, tossed Anakin around with his brute strength. And Anakin has never blown Dooku clear across a room with his strength or anything.

BTW, Anakin and Obi-Wan bearhugging Savage was so ****ing retarded. Thank god I don't watch that crap.

Selenial
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yup.
http://i.stack.imgur.com/kcEjs.jpg

Anakin is far stronger than Savage with his mechanical hand and massive force reserves. And yet here we see Dooku block his and Kenobi's attack with one hand

Actually, that's more the fact that the way they're reaching, neither can put full force into their push, but Dooku's defensive block is in a perfect position to put his full strength into it.

That was less physical prowess, more ingenuity.

Nephthys
thumb up

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know why your putting Maul's TK on the same level as Dooku's, when he's never actually defeated Kenobi with it, whilst Dooku clearly has.

In fact I don't know how you can put Maul in a whole category above Kenobi, when he's only defeated him once by using Dun Moch.

Yes their TK levels at the same level. Maul's TK is strong enough to manipulate a spaceship (Eta-class shuttle) from long distance.

Xfrh8WM5n6s

And never actually defeated Kenobi ? Maul defeated Kenobi 3 times.

Force choke

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/forcechokeobi-wan_zps9a41f733.jpg

Force grip & force blast

l74FlbZnS3k

Force choke & force pull

kC9JbW7sc4Y

Nephthys
Wasn't it directly stated that Maul isn't as powerful as Dooku and Vader?

FreshestSlice
Yep.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't it directly stated that Maul isn't as powerful as Dooku and Vader?

Who said that nonsense ? Lucas says, they are at the same level.

This is where Lucas says, Sidious never planned to change Maul ;



And here says, (TPM Maul btw) Maul, Dooku and Vader at the same level ;



That is why TPM Maul manage to kick Vader's ass but, who am I talking to ? Maul hate on this site is out of balance mad

Nephthys
Don't remember. It was something like:

"While not as powerful as Darth Vader, or even Dooku, Maul is able to stand besides them through sheer force of will or something."

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Yes their TK levels at the same level. Maul's TK is strong enough to manipulate a spaceship (Eta-class shuttle) from long distance.

Savage threw a Jedi Craft about the same size, when he was no where near as powerful as Dooku in the Force.

So no, that doesn't make Maul Dooku's equal in the Force.



Originally posted by Marco1907
And never actually defeated Kenobi ? Maul defeated Kenobi 3 times.

No he hasn't.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Force choke

This is the only time he did actually defeat him with TK alone. But there is context.

Kenobi is clearly caught off guard. Fight hadn't even begun. Plus it was possibly a place strong in the dark side.

Later in "Revival" however, Maul clashes with Kenobi 1 on 1 for over a minute. Why didn't he force choke him if it's that easy?

Because he has to catch him off guard, that's why.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Force grip & force blast

He never defeated Kenobi there, despite having help from Opress.

You really do ignore context. How much do you think Kenobi must have been tiring in that fight by fighting both Maul and Opress?



Originally posted by Marco1907
Force choke & force pull


He had a concussion! Jeez talk about leaving out context and lowballing!

Trocity
Marco is like Sion - no matter how many times you strike him down, he will return. Who shall be our Exile?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Selenial
Actually, that's more the fact that the way they're reaching, neither can put full force into their push, but Dooku's defensive block is in a perfect position to put his full strength into it.

That was less physical prowess, more ingenuity.

Precisely. Yet another example of how skill and technique beat power alone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And in fact it goes on to say "especially while fending off a second attacker" or something like that.

So yeah a 1 vs 1, where Dooku deflects, evades and gives ground, is a completely different situation.

That's right.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Marco1907
From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

That isn't saying he is as strong as either Count Dooku or Darth Vader. That is saying, character wise, they are similar. As in, none of them achieved what Sidious had planned for them. None of them earned being the Master of the Sith order like Sidious wanted them too

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by WildBantha88
That isn't saying he is as strong as either Count Dooku or Darth Vader. That is saying, character wise, they are similar. As in, none of them achieved what Sidious had planned for them. None of them earned being the Master of the Sith order like Sidious wanted them too

thumb up

Neither of them became as powerful as Sidious was the point of that sentence.

@Marco: He never specified TPM Maul. He just said Darth Maul. You're assuming it was TPM Maul because TCW wasn't around then, but it was already in development. So reviving Maul might have already been in Lucas' s mind.

Either way you can easily replace TPM Maul with TCW Maul in that line and it won't change the meaning of the line 1 bit.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't remember. It was something like:

"While not as powerful as Darth Vader, or even Dooku, Maul is able to stand besides them through sheer force of will or something."

After re-thinking, I think that's not wrong at somepoint. It's true that Maul's TK is not at their level, probably not even in TCW, though I think TCW Maul's TK is very close to Dooku's , still Dooku has force lightning.

However, it says that Maul at the same level (stands alone with them) with Vader and Dooku because he has - sheer force of will -

Means ; Maul physically better than both.

- Against Dooku ; Maul is much stronger and durable.

- Against Vader ; Maul is much faster.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage threw a Jedi Craft about the same size, when he was no where near as powerful as Dooku in the Force.

So no, that doesn't make Maul Dooku's equal in the Force.


You forget that Savage force choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time. And used force wave that knocked out Anakin & Obi-Wan. Don't underestimate Savage's force potential.

And Maul still stronger than Savage in TK, which means Maul at the same league with Dooku. And jedi craft is not the same thing with eta-class shuttle, Maul pulled that from long distance and that was much bigger.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Marco1907
After re-thinking, I think that's not wrong at somepoint. It's true that Maul's TK is not at their level, probably not even in TCW, though I think TCW Maul's TK is very close to Dooku's , still Dooku has force lightning.

However, it says that Maul at the same level (stands alone with them) with Vader and Dooku because he has - sheer force of will -

Means ; Maul physically better than both.

- Against Dooku ; Maul is much stronger and durable.

- Against Vader ; Maul is much faster.

I don't think thats what that means.

carthage
Maul isn't physically stronger than Vader either erm

Edit: And that comic artwork for Kenobi is horrible

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


You forget that Savage force choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time.


In an Amped Rage enhanced state and catching them off guard. As usual you're ignoring context.


Originally posted by Marco1907
And used force wave that knocked out Anakin & Obi-Wan.


He never KO's them.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Don't underestimate Savage's force potential.


Oh he's a potential Force TK Beast. But nothing next to Dooku, as shown in their training session.



Originally posted by Marco1907
And Maul still stronger than Savage in TK,

Prove it.


Originally posted by Marco1907
which means Maul at the same league with Dooku.


Nah, he can't even KO Obi-Wan with his TK. Dooku's TK > Maul's TK =/~ Opress's TK > Kenobi's TK.


Originally posted by Marco1907
And jedi craft is not the same thing with eta-class shuttle, Maul pulled that from long distance and that was much bigger.

It's not much bigger at all. It's about the same size. And Maul took more time to throw it than Opress did, and did so while he was "Desperate.

Arhael
The same assessment can be applied to Dooku. Why didn't he take out Kenobi in S6 with TK? Why didn't he take out Kenobi straight away in RotS and risked getting surrounded from opposite sides before finally making it? Because he needed to catch him off guard.

Marco1907
Originally posted by carthage
Maul isn't physically stronger than Vader either erm

Edit: And that comic artwork for Kenobi is horrible

And that is why I said Maul is much faster than Vader, much stronger than Dooku.

Maul has every physical weapon at his side. While Dooku has only speed, Vader has only strength and durability (except to force lightning).

Nephthys
Maul isn't faster than Vader.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael
The same assessment can be applied to Dooku. Why didn't he take out Kenobi in S6 with TK? Why didn't he take out Kenobi straight away in RotS and risked getting surrounded from opposite sides before finally making it? Because he needed to catch him off guard.

True but Dooku catches him off guard mid-battle. Not before the fight even begins, or after his opponent is tired from fighting 2 opponents. Sometimes he catches them off-guard with physical attacks, sometimes with Tk attacks. But important thing is he does those things mid-battle giving them a fair chance to fight back or take him down.

Catching someone off guard with an unexpected move mid-combat is an essential part of combat. But you should know that ; )

That's why I say Dooku is the superior "all-out" combatant.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul isn't faster than Vader.

laughing laughing laughing

Please tell me that you are joking...

And you can see the difference in this fight, and btw TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. (I confirmed that recently)

vldxgFHuw98

Not to mention, Lucas himself already said that Darth Vader is crippled half droid half man and slow, that is why he wanted to be much more energetic and faster ; Darth Maul.

Arhael
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but Dooku catches him off guard mid-battle. Not before the fight even begins, or after his opponent is tired from fighting 2 opponents. Sometimes he catches them off-guard with physical attacks, sometimes with Tk attacks. But important thing is he does those things mid-battle giving them a fair chance to fight back or take him down.

Catching someone off guard with an unexpected move mid-combat is an essential part of combat. But you should know that ; )

That's why I say Dooku is the superior "all-out" combatant.
Maul lifted Kenobi up and threw against the wall, when he fought him with Opress. That TK blast after I would, also, consider mid-combat. Also, Kenobi saw Maul before Maul started Force choking him, in that moment Kenobi wasn't busy with blocking lightsaber attacks and wasn't in a midst of an attacking move, so that should only make it harder to Force choke him.

Even if Dooku is superior, the difference is so small that it would still be relatively an even fight.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Arhael


Even if Dooku is superior, the difference is so small that it would still be relatively an even fight.

Agreed.

I only gave 6 of 10 win, in terms of force powers to Dooku against Maul, and that's only because of force lightning advantage. TCW Maul is very close to Dooku in terms of telekinesis.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael
Maul lifted Kenobi up and threw against the wall, when he fought him with Opress. That TK blast after I would, also, consider mid-combat.


Yeah but don't you think Kenobi would have been tiring fighting off both Maul brothers?


Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Kenobi saw Maul before Maul started Force choking him, in that moment Kenobi wasn't busy with blocking lightsaber attacks and wasn't in a midst of an attacking move, so that should only make it harder to Force choke him.


Yeah that one's crazy but impressive. But just seems inconsistent with what TCW showed us Imho.

Originally posted by Arhael
Even if Dooku is superior, the difference is so small that it would still be relatively an even fight.

You see I think there's a small difference in Sabers, and another small difference in TK. Then Dooku's shown his prowess as a combatant by combining those things several times.

So even though there's a small difference in each area, I think overall the difference becomes noticeable.

But hey Maul's still alive, while Dooku is dead. So maybe he'll grow even more powerful, and maybe Kenobi will still beat him wink Will just have to see.

ILS
Not sure how this got to five pages. Dooku stomps, he's just better, plain and simple. Savage's strength could tax him in some scenarios, I suppose.. but come on.

McP
Originally posted by Marco1907
Agreed.

I only gave 6 of 10 win, in terms of force powers to Dooku against Maul, and that's only because of force lightning advantage. TCW Maul is very close to Dooku in terms of telekinesis.

No way. Even assuming that Dooku and Maul are comperable in terms of TK (which I doubt, Dooku is superior imo), Dooku has much more other skills then Maul.
Equal TK = 50-50 in pure TK battle. But Dooku has really nice Force deflect (even surprised, he was able to easily deflect his own lightning). He also has a nice FL, and he's very good at combining this with his TK. Even if we assume, that Maul's TK is equal to Dooku's, there is nothing on Maul's side that could give him an advantage over Count in strict Force battle. That battle would be very close (assuming that they're equal in TK), but Dooku would finally won every single fight.

Marco1907
Originally posted by McP
No way. Even assuming that Dooku and Maul are comperable in terms of TK (which I doubt, Dooku is superior imo), Dooku has much more other skills then Maul.
Equal TK = 50-50 in pure TK battle. But Dooku has really nice Force deflect (even surprised, he was able to easily deflect his own lightning). He also has a nice FL, and he's very good at combining this with his TK. Even if we assume, that Maul's TK is equal to Dooku's, there is nothing on Maul's side that could give him an advantage over Count in strict Force battle. That battle would be very close (assuming that they're equal in TK), but Dooku would finally won every single fight.

You are underestimating dark rage of Maul. He simply created a telekinetic wave and turned into spider-monster with it. (If not, then he used force drain, choose one of them) Dark rage is inconsistent power set but still, he can win few TK rounds with it. Even in deleted scenes in Sidious battle at mandalore, Maul used a force blast which is disarmed Sidious.

Considering that Savage has very high level TK when he get angry (he force choked Count Dooku), I think it should apply to Maul as well.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


Considering that Savage has very high level TK when he get angry (he force choked Count Dooku), I think it should apply to Maul as well.


That was an amped Savage who caught Dooku by surprise.

Amped Savage has definitely displayed more raw Tk power than Maul ever has. Maul has however displayed more skill at applying his Tk- Precisely levitating Kenobi for instance, unlike Opress who just shoots out Force Waves.

McP
Originally posted by Marco1907
Even in deleted scenes in Sidious battle at mandalore, Maul used a force blast which is disarmed Sidious.

Yeah, that's right. And I actually consider it as a canon. It only proves, that someone who is much more powerful then his enemy can be caught by surprise. Even Sidious. Dooku being force choked by Opress is a very similar example. Even Anakin and Ventress'.

Anyway, Dooku's guard in the Force is quite strong. Sora Bulq (who was able to push Windu onto wall) was unable to do anything against Dooku (even if Dooku had to split his concentration between Bulq and Tholme).
Dooku was also untouched by Windu's Force wave (which temporary KO'ed 2 Magnaguards). Savage did something similar when he fought droids after his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan. I doubt that either Mace, Maul and Opress would be able to break Dooku's Force guard with that kind of attack.

Dooku is somehow more skilled TK user then Maul. Maul can be close, when he's angry or very determined (as he was when he and Savage were runing before Obi-Wan and pirates). And Maul's anger and determination are temporary. And Maul might be also easier to be catched off guard in that state.

And as Darth Power noted - it looks like Savage has more raw power in the Force then Maul.

ILS
Originally posted by McP
And as Darth Power noted - it looks like Savage has more raw power in the Force then Maul.

Nah, Maul is at least as powerful as Savage.

DARTH POWER
Maul can make more precise use of his TK. Which is down to training and skill. But that doesn't necessarily mean he has equal raw power to Opress.

Opress has a mean Force Wave. It's that backed by his Beastly strength that allows him to defeat even some Council Members.

ILS
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul can make more precise use of his TK. Which is down to training and skill. But that doesn't necessarily mean he has equal raw power to Opress.

Opress has a mean Force Wave. It's that backed by his Beastly strength that allows him to defeat even some Council Members.
Agreed, but Maul does have a good Force wave on him. He's blown away dozens of droids with it, accompanied Savage in blowing away a small army. And when you line up their power feats side by side they are more or less equal, but Maul tends to have a lot more skill with telekinesis on top of that.

I actually made a pretty detailed post on this.. and then I got hit with the "you can't post links yet" thing no expression

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


and btw TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. (I confirmed that recently)




Btw Marco, there's no confirmation of this. Just because TCW Maul is more powerful in the force than TPM Maul, does not necessarily mean he moves faster.

Especially considering his natural legs have been replaced by mechanical ones, therefore his speed may be limited by the mechanics of his cybernetic legs, much like Vader.

Trocity
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw Marco, there's no confirmation of this. Just because TCW Maul is more powerful in the force than TPM Maul, does not necessarily mean he moves faster.

Especially considering his natural legs have been replaced by mechanical ones, therefore his speed may be limited by the mechanics of his cybernetic legs, much like Vader.



http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4133538


This is why he thinks that. Because Fry said he got better "in general."

DARTH POWER
^ Oh ok. Thanks.

Edit -"In general" doesn't really sound like a massive amp in any particular category. In fact as far as I'm aware the book never quantified the extent of his improvement. I personally think it was probably just a modest improvement in all areas. The largest amp we see though is definitely in his Tk. Of course we're not aware how good Maul's Tk was at the time of TPM, so even that may be a modest difference.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Amped Savage has definitely displayed more raw Tk power than Maul ever has. Maul has however displayed more skill at applying his Tk- Precisely levitating Kenobi for instance, unlike Opress who just shoots out Force Waves.

I think we can compare them better with high end feats. Both Maul and Savage manipulated small spaceships.

Maul manipulated Eta-Class Shuttle ;

Xfrh8WM5n6s

Savage manipulated T-6 Shuttle ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/savageforce_zpsc9b0991e.gif

Both are impressive. However, Eta-Class Shuttle is a little bigger than T-6, and it is armored shuttle, unlike T-6 which is un-armed shuttle.

I think Maul has a little better raw force power than Savage, and much better skill at using it.

Also, another example here; Savage's force wave didn't affect him once ;

SmBmeq5RqF0

This is similar to Vader & Sidious (in the end of RotS) and also similar to Ventress & Dooku, didn't affect him also ;


http://i.hizliresim.com/3R7ZN9.jpg

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
I think we can compare them better with high end feats. Both Maul and Savage manipulated small spaceships.

Maul manipulated Eta-Class Shuttle ;



Savage manipulated T-6 Shuttle ;



Both are impressive. However, Eta-Class Shuttle is a little bigger than T-6, and it is armored shuttle, unlike T-6 which is un-armed shuttle.

I think Maul has a little better raw force power than Savage, and much better skill at using it.


Both those feats are about the same in terms of raw power. I wouldn't get into armored and not armored, as I doubt the creators of the show put much thought into that.

But yeah Maul can apply his raw power with much more skill and precision.

But Dooku's raw power was well above Savage's as we saw in their training session. The BEST Dooku got out of him in their training was still well below Dooku's ability.
But to be fair the Rage Enhanced Savage we saw later on was even more powerful, but he also has feats above Maul in that state (flooring/disabling 3 Destroyer droids + a dozen battle droids + 2 Jedi in one Beastly Rage enhanced Blast).



Originally posted by Marco1907
Also, another example here; Savage's force wave didn't affect him once ;

SmBmeq5RqF0




Nah, that was just a Frontal Force Wave, not an Omnidirectional one. So Maul was safe and sound behind him. There's no way Maul could just tank Savage's Force waves without even budging. They're about equal in raw power, and if anything going by feats like that, I'd give Savage the edge in raw power.

But damn, I forgot how good that episode was!

McP
Originally posted by Marco1907
Both are impressive. However, Eta-Class Shuttle is a little bigger than T-6, and it is armored shuttle, unlike T-6 which is un-armed shuttle.
As you said - those feats were impressive, and comperable with perhaps a very small advantage for Maul.

Originally posted by Marco1907
(...)and much better skill at using it.
I also agree with that. Maul's techniqe was superior.

But look at this from the other side - If Maul had superior technique (I guess, everyone will agree with that), and their feats were more or less comperable, then there must be something that enabled Savage to recompensate his lack of skill. And it was his superior raw-power in the Force.

It doesn't put Opress above Maul. In fact, pure skill is much more important then raw power in almost every fight.
And it have to be noted, that Savage's superior raw power in terms of TK doesn't necessary mean, that he has superior raw power in the Force overall. Perhaps Maul was stronger in the Force, but Savage was more talented in terms of TK.

Just like Yoda is far stronger and skilled in the Force then Mace, Mace is much more talented in terms of shatterpoint which makes him superior user of it.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Also, another example here; Savage's force wave didn't affect him once
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah, that was just a Frontal Force Wave, not an Omnidirectional one. So Maul was safe and sound behind him. There's no way Maul could just tank Savage's Force waves without even budging.
I have nothing more to say about that.

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