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Sabers, force all out.

Vader post-suit. He is more machine than man.

Alright, some people said that I am Dooku hater, but somehow my vote goes to Dooku on this one.

- Vader is officially weak to force lightning.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsComics04b0bafett_Scans02_zps2fd83754.jpg

Taken from ; Star Wars Comics UK Magazine 04

- Vader is too slow for Dooku.

These two point makes me think that Dooku has major advantage. Vader has strength and durability advantage but not that important as his speed and force lightning disadvantages.

Dooku 7 of 10.

Vader>Dooku>Maul

Marco I thought you were of the opinion that anyone who is strong beats Dooku, so this analysis of yours does surprise me.

Vader can always catch FL with his Saber btw, still Dooku might land the odd shot in, if he knows Vader has that weakness.

Originally posted by Trocity
Vader>Dooku>Maul

TCW Maul > Dooku = Vader

deal with it.

Remember how clone of Maul kicked Vader's ass.....

vldxgFHuw98

Vader only won via PIS, and that was TPM Maul....

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Marco I thought you were of the opinion that anyone who is strong beats Dooku, so this analysis of yours does surprise me.

Vader can always catch FL with his Saber btw, still Dooku might land the odd shot in, if he knows Vader has that weakness.

Vader is too slow for this. Vader already had troubles against average jedi masters, and they were no where near fast as Dooku. There is too much speed difference between Dooku and post-suit Vader. If Dooku plays smart, he should win the majority.

Vader is susceptible to particularly powerful lightning such as that of Sidious. As seen against Marek's clone, in the novelization he tanks a massive blast of Force Lightning and just goes down on his knee. In the game he takes lightning amplified by two lightning pylons and he does the same.

Originally posted by Trocity
Vader>Dooku>Maul

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vader is susceptible to particularly powerful lightning such as that of Sidious. As seen against Marek's clone, in the novelization he tanks a massive blast of Force Lightning and just goes down on his knee. In the game he takes lightning amplified by two lightning pylons and he does the same.

Yeah right, I think that's why he died in 10 second with Sidious's lightning, while Luke take the same lightning for 1 minute and survived.

Vader is more machine than man, and he doesn't have any resistance to force lightning. And also slow in comparision with Dooku and Maul.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Vader is more machine than man, and he doesn't have any resistance to force lightning.
Did you see how long Vader resisted Starkiller's lightning? Do you think that maybe Sidious just might be more powerful than Marek or his clone? I mean the writers seem to.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Did you see how long Vader resisted Starkiller's lightning? Do you think that maybe Sidious just might be more powerful than Marek or his clone? I mean the writers seem to.

I don't see any resistance, he just get ass kicked ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-TheForceUnleashedII-028_zps8865dac5.jpg

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-TheForceUnleashedII-080_zps1c018c8c.jpg

You do realise that those scenes are condensed, yes?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah right, I think that's why he died in 10 second with Sidious's lightning, while Luke take the same lightning for 1 minute and survived.

Vader is more machine than man, and he doesn't have any resistance to force lightning. And also slow in comparision with Dooku and Maul.

Didnt Vader die there cause of his hand?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah right, I think that's why he died in 10 second with Sidious's lightning, while Luke take the same lightning for 1 minute and survived.

Vader is more machine than man, and he doesn't have any resistance to force lightning. And also slow in comparision with Dooku and Maul.

He was already very tired, his use of rage which he would normally use to sustain his health was gone, his hand had been chopped off and he took a sustained point blank full power burst of FL from the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. He still survived all the way to the hangar bay on a moon-sized space station.

Sidious was not hitting him with lethal bursts of lightning, it's stated plainly that he was torturing him, as Luke himself was attempting Tutaminis and so Sidious gradually ramped up the power. Luke was still feeling severe after-effects for months after.

His suit is implied to be a set of Dark Armor and is stated to have lightning resistant materials. He also has his lightsaber with which he has displayed ability to bat away bursts of FL.

ROTJ Vader>Dooku>/=ROTS Anakin>ESB Vader>ANH Vader>TFU Vader>Maul>Purge Vader

Originally posted by Lord Stark
ROTJ Vader>Dooku>/=ROTS Anakin>ESB Vader>ANH Vader>TFU Vader>Maul>Purge Vader

Clone of TPM Maul already kicked ANH Vader's ass.

TCW Maul >= Dooku > RotJ Vader > TPM Maul > ANH Vader

Dooku and peak!Vader are both above Maul. They eclipse him in the Force and Dooku at least eclipses him in lightsabers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku and peak!Vader are both above Maul. They eclipse him in the Force and Dooku at least eclipses him in lightsabers.

Dooku eclipses him in both, as does arguably Vader.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Clone of TPM Maul already kicked ANH Vader's ass.

TCW Maul >= Dooku > RotJ Vader > TPM Maul > ANH Vader

Will you stop slobbing on Maul's knob like its corn on the cob.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Clone of TPM Maul already kicked ANH Vader's ass.

You mean the comic they released like a year or two after TPM because people wanted to see how a Vader vs Maul fight would go down, so they obviously made it even to make them both look good, when feats since then clearly show that Vader can kick Maul's ass?

As for the fight, I say Vaders superior TK is the deciding factor here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As for the fight, I say Vaders superior TK is the deciding factor here.

Vader never defeated someone on Dooku's calibre with TK. Only featless jedi he defeated. Defeating Dooku or TCW Maul via TK is not going to happen by Vader. It is up to lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Trocity
You mean the comic they released like a year or two after TPM because people wanted to see how a Vader vs Maul fight would go down, so they obviously made it even to make them both look good, when feats since then clearly show that Vader can kick Maul's ass?

Wtf ? So are we going to make excuses for the battles ? Or are we going to use it as it happened ?

TPM Maul kicked ANH Vader's ass because, you know Vader is crippled half droid half man (said by lucas) and no where near fast as Maul. That is why Maul is superior in combat. They matches in strength and skill. But speed is the determined factor since Vader lacks too much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku and peak!Vader are both above Maul. They eclipse him in the Force and Dooku at least eclipses him in lightsabers.

Vader is too slow. He can't defeat Dooku or Maul because of that.

Originally posted by Sinious
Didnt Vader die there cause of his hand?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Alright, some people said that I am Dooku hater, but somehow my vote goes to Dooku on this one.

- Vader is officially weak to force lightning.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsComics04b0bafett_Scans02_zps2fd83754.jpg

Taken from ; Star Wars Comics UK Magazine 04

- Vader is too slow for Dooku.

These two point makes me think that Dooku has major advantage. Vader has strength and durability advantage but not that important as his speed and force lightning disadvantages.

Dooku 7 of 10.

Vader is not weak against lightning at all. Your so called "evidence doesn't prove your point. Stating that he is susceptible to LONG bursts of Lightning is a totally unnecessary statement. NO ONE is immune to Ligtning, so saying that Vader is susceptible to it means nothing.

Your source not only doesn't prove anything but it's also an opinion on how a fight between Maul and Vader would go. It also states that Vader is an acrobatic duellist, which you evidently overlooked.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Vader is too slow for this. Vader already had troubles against average jedi masters, and they were no where near fast as Dooku. There is too much speed difference between Dooku and post-suit Vader. If Dooku plays smart, he should win the majority.

Vader has formed a shield out of his blade, deflected many blaster bolts at point blank range, outclassed Aurra Sing (who was fastand agile enough to dodge several blaster bolts from Droidekas) in speed, moved his blade faster than thought, speedblitzed Jedi Knights, dodged Jedi Masters' attacks, moved his blade fast enough to create a blue circle, etc. He is on Obi-Wan's level in speed and the latter was never defeated by Dooku via speed.

Yes, he had trouble against Jedi masters when he was outnumbered, still not used to his suit, and decades before his prime. How shameful on Vader's part to have problems in that circumstance.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah right, I think that's why he died in 10 second with Sidious's lightning, while Luke take the same lightning for 1 minute and survived.

Vader is more machine than man, and he doesn't have any resistance to force lightning. And also slow in comparision with Dooku and Maul.

He tanked the full power of Sidious' Lightning, while already injured. Luke took 1 minute of torture level Lightning. Yeah, great comparison.

The fact that Vader is more machine than man is a statement that holds no value and proves nothing but your preconceived misconception that he MUST be especially weak to Lightning. Facts prove otherwise, and your source doen't contradict them.

Starkiller's Lightning could vaporize stormtroopers, yet Vader tanked it at the beginning of the novel.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4115293-2850813668-43c3b.gif

Later in the novel he also tanked a highly concentrated burst of Lightning in the side of his armor and all it did was distract him for a moment.

Stop pretending to know what you're talking about when it' clearly not the case.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Clone of TPM Maul already kicked ANH Vader's ass.

TCW Maul >= Dooku > RotJ Vader > TPM Maul > ANH Vader


The clone didn't kick Vader's ass. It was a very close fight for the most part, and Vader both vastly improved in skill and became more powerful after that. And it wasn't a Force fight, but a duel, so I don't see how you put TCW Maul above ROTJ Vader when the former only improved in power after TPM, and Vader is clearly at least noticeably more powerful by feats.

Oh, I almost forgot. The source you posted also states that Maul gives his best in a duel when he wields a double-bladed lightsaber. And that's exactly what he did for most of that fight. Which means that TCW Maul would not have done as well as TPM Maul against Vader.

Vader takes it with difficulty

On that thread I would say: Dooku > Vader.

In this situation I'm basing more of Lucas' ow statements then on EU. Lucas himself stated, that PT Era is "Jedi Prime Era" and "Golden Age of Jedi".
And that Vader is just crippled half-droid half-man.

So in my opinion, most of PT trylogy duelists are superior to Vader: Maul, Windu, Dooku, Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan.

Vader's only hope is his command of the Force, but he has never shown, that he's able to overcome top-level enemies with his TK for example.

It's over.

This thread is probably quite useful http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651022

Not feeling that as a legit vaporization. Looks more like laziness and crappy effects.

I'd say Dooku takes this even though Vader is more powerful on paper.

Vader is physically stronger, more durable, more powerful in the force, has dar superior TK, and his Djem so is perfect to wear Tyranus down. He takes his with difficulty of course, but assuming he starts tk use his forfe abilities its over for Dooku

Originally posted by McP
On that thread I would say: Dooku > Vader.

In this situation I'm basing more of Lucas' ow statements then on EU. Lucas himself stated, that PT Era is "Jedi Prime Era" and "Golden Age of Jedi".
And that Vader is just crippled half-droid half-man.

So in my opinion, most of PT trylogy duelists are superior to Vader: Maul, Windu, Dooku, Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan.
.

Finally ! I have waited for this comment.

%100 Agreed.

This is the part where Lucas says Vader is half droid half man and slower than prime jedi.

6NyxljZNC8g

@carthage

Vader never defeated someone at Dooku's level via TK, only featless & fodder jedi. Unless you show me that Vader defeating someone who has very good TK level, this is up to lightsaber combat.

And I agree Vader much stronger and durable, but this is irrelevant since Vader is too slow to keep up with Dooku. Anakin was much faster than Vader, that is why he managed to beat him ; speed + strength combination.

Originally posted by McP
On that thread I would say: Dooku > Vader.

In this situation I'm basing more of Lucas' ow statements then on EU. Lucas himself stated, that PT Era is "Jedi Prime Era" and "Golden Age of Jedi".
And that Vader is just crippled half-droid half-man.

So in my opinion, most of PT trylogy duelists are superior to Vader: Maul, Windu, Dooku, Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan.

Vader's only hope is his command of the Force, but he has never shown, that he's able to overcome top-level enemies with his TK for example.
I lol'd @ Outdated Commentary > showings, did you know Lucas also calls Vader 80% Sidious, the most overused line in arguments everywhere. Count Dooku isn't even close to that.

In my opinion that statement was about Anakin's strenght/potential in the Force.

Which is directly related to how strong you are with a lightsaber, but even if it wasn't Vader is still Vader, Obi-Wan is still Obi-Wan, Sidious is still Sidious, and none would suddenly forget their lightsaber styles just because Lucas made a comment about choreography.

I doubt it. Anyway, as a duelist, I believie that Count Dooku is much better then 80% of Sidious.

Anyway, Vader had to change his style because of his limitations, and could never be as good as he was before Mustafar.
On the other hand, Vader was superior Force user to Anakin. Anakin was more powerful, but Vader was much more skilled. However, Vader has never shown, that he's able to beat strongest enemies with his Force powers. He was losing to Maul, he had hard time with Dark Woman. Even TESB Luke was able to hit his armor. He could become stronger after TESB, and he could be much more powerful Force user on a paper. But I don't see him winning against masters like Dooku or Windu. Maul also was a superior swordmaster to him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I lol'd @ Outdated Commentary > showings, did you know Lucas also calls Vader 80% Sidious, the most overused line in arguments everywhere. Count Dooku isn't even close to that.

And do you know that Lucas said Maul, Dooku and Vader, all they are at the same level ?

Means that %80 indicates to Maul and Dooku as well.

Originally posted by McP
Maul also was a superior swordmaster to him.

No, he was not.

Originally posted by McP
I doubt it. Anyway, as a duelist, I believie that Count Dooku is much better then 80% of Sidious.

Sidious lolstomps Dooku. He's nowhere near close. But that 80% statement isn't even accurate so it doesn't matter.

False. Powerwise he was hampered, and even then it was a psychological issue. Vader in sabers is a bamf, and has been shown comparable to Maul before his peak.

More like the other way around. And that's only up to ANH. After that Vader passes Anakin in both aspects. Prime Vader is suit Vader.

lol

Not his peak with Maul or the Dark Woman, and he was going easy on Luke because he wanted to turn him. Just like with ESB. Even if you don't believe that, his feats as Vader far outstripe his as Anakin.

No, no, and no. Dooku and Windu can't even compete with him in RotS, and he's already outclasses Maul, even if you think his win was circumstance.

I have noticed another strength feat for Maul ;

http://i.hizliresim.com/voZMmA.jpg

Maul lifts Obi-Wan with one hand only.

Now I am sure that ; Savage >= Maul > Anakin >= Obi-Wan

Yeah, truly lifting a man with one arm is stronger than Anakin's feat of ripping apart spider droids with one hand.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, truly lifting a man with one arm is stronger than Anakin's feat of ripping apart spider droids with one hand.

No, lifting Obi-Wan Kenobi with one hand exceeds any feat of Emokin's... Since he failed to dominate same Kenobi via physical.

Bro, he was bending Kenobi's bones in their fight.

Other than when he was choking him out, forcing his lightsaber towards his face and almost breaking his arm?

Vader crushes.

Originally posted by Marco1907
No, lifting Obi-Wan Kenobi with one hand exceeds any feat of Emokin's... Since he failed to dominate same Kenobi via physical. Anakin caught a speeder with one hand while falling at approximately 99% terminal velocity (around 122 mph) in ATOC. Unless in the novel it mentions him using the force to slow his fall, this feat is far superior to lifting a guy with one hand.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'd say Dooku takes this even though Vader is more powerful on paper.

Kind of like how Maul is more powerful than Kenobi on paper, but when they actually fight Kenobi seems to have the edge.

I'll take my bet with Vader. Should definitely be a pretty close fight, though.

The fact that this is debated actually is something that baffles me. It pretty clear that Vader is the strongest of the three apprentices. In lightsaber skill they are all pretty around the same level but in the Force, Vader trumps them all. His TK is some of the best in the universe, Vader can crush starfighter with ease and force starfighters to crash into each other. He can Force choke people from across the galaxy via holograms (something far beyond the capabilities of either of the other two)

Also he has a ton of accolaydes that establish him as unnaturally strong in the force. I believe I read on recently that went something like this

"He was like an inevitability in the Force." (not the exact quote but I can fish it out if someone wants the real one)

Originally posted by WildBantha88
He can Force choke people from across the galaxy via holograms (something far beyond the capabilities of either of the other two)

Nah. An unamped Darth Baras has done this. I doubt it's beyond Maul and Dooku's capabilities, much less far beyond.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nah. An unamped Darth Baras has done this. I doubt it's beyond Maul and Dooku's capabilities, much less far beyond.


Mind blank.
Much mind Blank, very Sad....

Haven't we seen Dooku do this in TCW? I don't know why I'm asking this, I just have this feeling we have...

Siidious did it to Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Siidious did it to Dooku.

Almost the same thing

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The fact that this is debated actually is something that baffles me. It pretty clear that Vader is the strongest of the three apprentices. In lightsaber skill they are all pretty around the same level but in the Force, Vader trumps them all. His TK is some of the best in the universe, Vader can crush starfighter with ease and force starfighters to crash into each other. He can Force choke people from across the galaxy via holograms (something far beyond the capabilities of either of the other two)

Also he has a ton of accolaydes that establish him as unnaturally strong in the force. I believe I read on recently that went something like this

"He was like an inevitability in the Force." (not the exact quote but I can fish it out if someone wants the real one)

Granted Vader would win, he isn't going to wreck Dooku. The Count is a better duellist, faster (not by much, though), and shouldn't be far below in power, having stomped someone like Ventress, who is a very powerful Dark Jedi.

Just to ask, when did Vader force starfighters to crash into each other? And I doubt chocking someone from across the galaxy is that impressive, and beyond Maul/Dooku's powers, unless he did this to a Sith/Jedi.

How is the Count faster than Vader? They're about the same speed, honestly.

Keeping up with Yoda?

Although there was that guy who compared Vader and Yoda's speed....

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is the Count faster than Vader? They're about the same speed, honestly.

See this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

Nuff said.

I'm just gonna address a few things as to how they stack up IMO.

In a lightsaber duel, Dooku's primary form is Makashi, and Vader's primary form is Djem So. Vader also has some training/expertise in Makashi that he incorporates in his fighting style, and he has on a suit of armor that can tank light blows from a lightsaber. I really don't think Dooku's strikes are going to be the end of Vader given that Vader incorporates a certain degree of precision himself, and has the armor to tank light blows, while Makashi doesn't favor kinetic strikes. Given that Dooku has been overpowered by superior strength before, and that Vader is really ****ing strong, I'd say Vader's power blows would pose a substantial threat here. Really as far as the way they stack up against each other in a duel, it seems like Vader poses the bigger threat.

As far as a clash of force powers goes, Vader has the superior telekinetic power. The main edge people are attributing to Dooku is his lightning. What is being forgotten here is that Vader can block Dooku's lightning with a lightsaber, and that the only two people to overpower Vader with lightning had significantly stronger lightning than Dooku's.

Dooku puts up a fight, but Vader would beat him.

Originally posted by Nargaroth

Just to ask, when did Vader force starfighters to crash into each other? .
http://hushcomics.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/taylor-nom-epic-darth-vader-and-the-cry-of-shadows-1-12182013.jpg

Ahem, those are not starfighters. Those are two massive ships, and that feat is non-canon anyway. That feat is just the imagination of a clone trooper. In addition, the author said it is non canon, though he didn't express himself in absolute terms.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
See this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

Nuff said.
Not really.

Why? Isn't it obvious by making a comparison?

Vader has force crushed a TIE fighter btw.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Why? Isn't it obvious by making a comparison?
Vader has some insane speed feats of his own. They look pretty equal to me. And as respect threads are the definition of bias, I take them all with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by Raptor22
Anakin caught a speeder with one hand while falling at approximately 99% terminal velocity (around 122 mph) in ATOC. Unless in the novel it mentions him using the force to slow his fall, this feat is far superior to lifting a guy with one hand.

''A guy'' This is Obi-Wan Kenobi ! The same guy who turned Anakin into kentucky fried chicken...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is the Count faster than Vader? They're about the same speed, honestly.

Yeah right and I am Princess Elizabeth...

I can provide you 5 EU scans which says Vader is slow. But I think you Vader fanboys will deny that, since even Lucas himself said Vader is cripled half droid half man and he is slow.

Vader hardly tags someone like Old Ben Kenobi, Old An'ya Kuro, and average jedi like Kai Hudorra, Sha Koon etc.

There is too much difference between Dooku and Vader in terms of speed.

and there are also statements confirming that Vader improved significantly past that point.

I am now 98% sure he is trolling

Originally posted by Selenial
I am now 98% sure he is trolling

Alright Vader is fast. If you are really believing that.

Originally posted by Selenial
I am now 98% sure he is trolling
"Princess Elizabeth?" Yep.

Originally posted by Marco1907
''A guy'' This is Obi-Wan Kenobi ! The same guy who turned Anakin into kentucky fried chicken im sorry but i dont see ur point. Strength wise, how was it any different than lifting an average sized man?

Originally posted by Raptor22
im sorry but i dont see ur point. Strength wise, how was it any different than lifting an average sized man?

While Obi-Wan was trying to break that grip ? Yeah it is damn impressive. I don't see Anakin doing the same while Obi-Wan was trying to escape it.

Originally posted by Marco1907
While Obi-Wan was trying to break that grip ? Yeah it is damn impressive. I don't see Anakin doing the same while Obi-Wan was trying to escape it.

Obi-Wan had been beaten senseless before hand. So it was a lot less impressive than Anakin choking the s*** out of a 100% combat ready Obi-Wan. And forcing his own Saber back onto him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader has some insane speed feats of his own. They look pretty equal to me. And as respect threads are the definition of bias, I take them all with a grain of salt.

Then analyze their feats and make your own comparison to explain why Dooku isn't faster than Vader. And not all respect threads are biased, especially considering that they're supposed to be a collection of feats. There is no more bias in them than what you can find in any forum. It depends on the user.

What respect threads tend to gloss over are showings of where the character fails. I don't care what they do to compare in the thread, I'll make my own judgements, thanks.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What respect threads tend to gloss over are showings of where the character fails. I don't care what they do to compare in the thread, I'll make my own judgements, thanks.

Again, respect threads are collections of feats, not comparisons, and of course low showings are disregarded, because it's a respect thread. Not only that, but those kinds of showings are much rarer than good showings. And I was just asking you what makes Vader and Dooku even in terms of speed. If you make this kind of claims you should at least try to explain them.

Every defeat isn't a low showing, and I know what respect threads are. I'm going to make my own judgements.

Vader blocking turret lasers, moving so fast his movements can't be tracked, being able to keep up with starfighters, etc.

I'm sure there's plenty of respect threads on him though, since that seems to be your kind of thing.

When you compare abilities, you need to compare all. Sure Vader has speed feats, no one denies that. But how about his low end feats ? There are lots of embarassing speed feats for Vader (which are made for showing that Vader has weakness ; speed), so are we going to ignore these ? When you compare Dooku's low and high feats, and Vader's... You can see the big difference.

Dooku and Maul, both are much faster than Vader.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Every defeat isn't a low showing, and I know what respect threads are. I'm going to make my own judgements.

Vader blocking turret lasers, moving so fast his movements can't be tracked, being able to keep up with starfighters, etc.

I'm sure there's plenty of respect threads on him though, since that seems to be your kind of thing.

I don't think I know the latter two speed feats for Vader. And of course not every defeat is a low showing. For example, in my Ventress respect thread, I included her defeat against Mace Windu, because it's still a good showing.

I'd give Vader the edge over Dooku; good fight, though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd give Vader the edge over Dooku; good fight, though.