Captain America vs. Achilles (Troy)

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Firefly218
No shield or armor for Cap

Both Cap and Achilles are armed with a light saber. Achilles light saber is double edged while Cap has the short Yoda saber

Who wins

Oneness
Captain America: Strength, power, and muscular endurance

Achilles: Speed, cardiovascular stamina, and agility

Jr_uKfbsWA

NemeBro
Originally posted by Firefly218


Both Cap and Achilles are armed with a light saber. Achilles light saber is double edged while Cap has the short Yoda saber

Who wins

erm

Mindset
Cap doesn't know how to use a sword, much less a lightsaber, so he kills himself.

Psychotron
Originally posted by Mindset
Cap doesn't know how to use a sword, much less a lightsaber, so he kills himself.

Plus Achilles' lightsaber has superior range.

Oneness
The only advantage to a dual-ended blade of any kind is that the striking sequences are less predictable.

An area in which Achilles thrived - that and his kinetic speed. Dude had dexterity through the roof. Plus he had power, strength, and his muscles didn't seem to wear out. But they're no SS serum.

Time Immemorial
Achilles wins

Psychotron
Originally posted by Oneness
The only advantage to a dual-ended blade of any kind is that the striking sequences are less predictable.

An area in which Achilles thrived - that and his kinetic speed. Dude had dexterity through the roof. Plus he had power, strength, and his muscles didn't seem to wear out. But they're no SS serum.

Don't forget that he can activate only one blade if wants, like Darth Maul did. Captain America is not even proficient with swords, while Achilles is quite skilled and also immortal. This an easy win for Achilles.

KingD19
Achilles wasn't immortal or a demi god in that movie.

Psychotron
Originally posted by KingD19
Achilles wasn't immortal or a demi god in that movie.

It's pretty heavily implied that he was. But even if he wasn't he's still far more skilled with a blade, has a better weapon, and is at least as fast and agile as Rogers.

FrothByte
Strength and speed are important but they're not as big a factor as skill, at least when it comes to swordfights. Achilles is obviously more skilled in swordplay. Cap will end up just winging it.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by FrothByte
Strength and speed are important but they're not as big a factor as skill, at least when it comes to swordfights. Achilles is obviously more skilled in swordplay. Cap will end up just winging it.

Winging it? Thats like saying Captain beats Vadar in a sword fight by winging it.

FrothByte
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Winging it? Thats like saying Captain beats Vadar in a sword fight by winging it.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. I'm saying Achilles has the advantage because he's actually trained with the sword whereas Cap will just be winging it.

jinXed by JaNx
why not just default weapons? Lightsabers should be reserved for jedis only

KingD19
If we want to be technical, Achilles won't have much if any advantage. As a lightsaber weighs faaaar less than a sword. He'd be just as off balance as Cap is inexperienced with a bladed weapon.

But Cap's physical superiority in all areas imo means he wins regardless.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by KingD19
If we want to be technical, Achilles won't have much if any advantage. As a lightsaber weighs faaaar less than a sword. He'd be just as off balance as Cap is inexperienced with a bladed weapon.

But Cap's physical superiority in all areas imo means he wins regardless.

Pretty sure Achilles could figure out how to use a lighter sword.

KingD19
Just like Cap could figure out how to swing a blade. He knife fought Bucky well enough.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by KingD19
Just like Cap could figure out how to swing a blade. He knife fought Bucky well enough.

A big leap to go from a hack and slash knife fight, to a sword fight when you dealing with a master swordsman.

Are you assuming Bucky was a better knife fighter then Cap because he had a knife on him?

KingD19
Bucky was a master assassin who was clearly just as skilled with his blade as Achilles is with his sword.

FrothByte
Achilles regularly practices with a wooden sword, which weighs almost next to nothing.

KingD19
A lightsaber's weight is entirely the handle. The blade itself weighs literally nothing.

And while wooden swords are lighter in comparison to real swords, they are still decently heavy enough that they hurt like hell when you get hit. Those swords could still break bone.

Mindset
Fighting with a sword is pretty much nothing like fighting with a knife.

The sword Achilles used weigh like 2 lbs or slightly less. There isn't much of a weight difference between a lightsaber and a bronze sword.

FrothByte
Originally posted by KingD19
A lightsaber's weight is entirely the handle. The blade itself weighs literally nothing.

And while wooden swords are lighter in comparison to real swords, they are still decently heavy enough that they hurt like hell when you get hit. Those swords could still break bone.

A single handed bronze sword weighs less than 2 lbs, close to 1 pound probably. A wooden sword would weigh less than 1 pound unless its made of some ridiculously heavy wood (which would make it unsuitable as a practice weapon). So honestly, the difference between a lightsaber and a wooden sword would be measured in ounces, and that's not enough to set achilles off balance.

Face it, Achilles just has that much more skill than cap when it comes to swords.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by FrothByte
A single handed bronze sword weighs less than 2 lbs, close to 1 pound probably. A wooden sword would weigh less than 1 pound unless its made of some ridiculously heavy wood (which would make it unsuitable as a practice weapon). So honestly, the difference between a lightsaber and a wooden sword would be measured in ounces, and that's not enough to set achilles off balance.

Face it, Achilles just has that much more skill than cap when it comes to swords.

Well said.

NemeBro
Why not give Cap his shield and Achilles the weaponry he actually used (So spear and xiphos)?

Mindset
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why not give Cap his shield and Achilles the weaponry he actually used (So spear and xiphos)? Because Cap would throw the shield which would go through Achilles's weapons then his skull.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Mindset
Because Cap would throw the shield which would go through Achilles's weapons then his skull.

Considering that never happened to anyone way under Achilles league, I doubt it, and to add he would duck. Ach has a battle sense and knew what was happening at all times, even behind him before it happened.

FrothByte
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why not give Cap his shield and Achilles the weaponry he actually used (So spear and xiphos)?

Because a vibranium shield would wreck the shit out of a bronze sword and a wooden spear/shield.

Mindset
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Considering that never happened to anyone way under Achilles league, I doubt it, and to add he would duck. Ach has a battle sense and knew what was happening at all times, even behind him before it happened. Cap severed an aliens arm with his shield. Anyway, Achilles has human level durability, and a shield throw > that.

Do you seriously doubt he lacks the strength, combined with the shields unique properties, to decapitate Achilles?

Achilles would probably try to block a shield throw with his own shield.

ares834
Achilles with ease.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Mindset
Because Cap would throw the shield which would go through Achilles's weapons then his skull. Which is more demonstrative of their actual abilities rather than this farce of a thread which asks Cap to take a dagger and beat someone with a laser longsword, lol.

Just make Achilles' weapons also vibranium and it would be good.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Mindset
Cap severed an aliens arm with his shield. Anyway, Achilles has human level durability, and a shield throw > that.

Do you seriously doubt he lacks the strength, combined with the shields unique properties, to decapitate Achilles?

Achilles would probably try to block a shield throw with his own shield.

Achilles isn't stupid, he ducks. And OP says no shield, did you read it?

Originally posted by Mindset
Cap doesn't know how to use a sword, much less a lightsaber, so he kills himself.

Oh wait, you said Cap dies here. And Cap has no shield per OP.

Mindset
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Achilles isn't stupid, he ducks. And OP says no shield, did you read it?



Oh wait, you said Cap dies here. And Cap has no shield per OP. facepalm

It might help if you actually read the post I was replying to...

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Mindset
facepalm

It might help if you actually read the post I was replying to...

I know. I just dont see why shield talk is that important since its not in the fight. But if we wanna talk about it, he ducks like he ducked from other people throwing spears at him. Its common sense to dodge or duck when you don't wanna get hit. I kinda saw from the movie, Achilles prefers to evade all incoming attacks.

FrothByte
Anyway... Cap loses in a sword fight. Achilles loses in h2h.

Time Immemorial
Yup

XanatosForever
Originally posted by NemeBro
Which is more demonstrative of their actual abilities rather than this farce of a thread which asks Cap to take a dagger and beat someone with a laser longsword, lol.

Just make Achilles' weapons also vibranium and it would be good.

Laser dagger v laser longsword.

Mindset
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I know. I just dont see why shield talk is that important since its not in the fight. But if we wanna talk about it, he ducks like he ducked from other people throwing spears at him. Its common sense to dodge or duck when you don't wanna get hit. I kinda saw from the movie, Achilles prefers to evade all incoming attacks. If you knew why I was talking about the shield, why did you ask if I read the OP?

Except all the times that he blocked stuff with his shield.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Mindset
If you knew why I was talking about the shield, why did you ask if I read the OP?

Except all the times that he blocked stuff with his shield.

Block, ducked, evaded, dodged, jumped. And?

Dramatic Gecko
Originally posted by KingD19
Bucky was a master assassin who was clearly just as skilled with his blade as Achilles is with his sword.

The **** you been smoking?

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
The **** you been smoking?

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

The Captain/Bucky wanking has reached maximum levels.

Dramatic Gecko
Here's an Idea. Give Achilles the Syrum. Now he is god.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Here's an Idea. Give Achilles the Syrum. Now he is god.

I thought he had the serumsmile

That would sick stacking his skills with the power.

Dramatic Gecko
I wonder if Captain America's syrum was based off the potion used in Asterix. lol

Mindset
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Block, ducked, evaded, dodged, jumped. And? So you agree he was prone to blocking attacks with his shield. thumb up

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Mindset
So you agree he was prone to blocking attacks with his shield. thumb up

Yes and when he didn't have his shield, he ducked and evaded.

Flyattractor
From what I seen of the fighting in Troy. The way that Pretty Boy Brad fought. He was doing it like a idiot novice. Most of the time he left himself wide open.
I bet Rogers could take him....mainly on the accout the Cap A movies didn't suck balls like Troy did.

FrothByte
He was only wide open during the times his opponent was either dead or completely off balance dodging/blocking his hits.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Flyattractor
From what I seen of the fighting in Troy. The way that Pretty Boy Brad fought. He was doing it like a idiot novice. Most of the time he left himself wide open.
I bet Rogers could take him....mainly on the accout the Cap A movies didn't suck balls like Troy did.

laughing laughing laughing

Too bad you wrong.

Psychotron
Originally posted by Flyattractor
From what I seen of the fighting in Troy. The way that Pretty Boy Brad fought. He was doing it like a idiot novice. Most of the time he left himself wide open.
I bet Rogers could take him....mainly on the accout the Cap A movies didn't suck balls like Troy did.

Yeah, they were even worse.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Psychotron
Yeah, they were even worse.

laughing laughing

NemeBro
Originally posted by Flyattractor
From what I seen of the fighting in Troy. The way that Pretty Boy Brad fought. He was doing it like a idiot novice. Most of the time he left himself wide open.
I bet Rogers could take him....mainly on the accout the Cap A movies didn't suck balls like Troy did. Troy had pretty terrible swordplay and fight scenes in general.

I nearly shit my pants laughing at Brad and Bana's homoerotic dance session fight.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by NemeBro
Troy had pretty terrible swordplay and fight scenes in general.

I nearly shit my pants laughing at Brad and Bana's homoerotic dance session fight.

Go watch Captain America 1. You would not hate Troy so much thensmile

NemeBro
I've seen Cap 1.

Troy is an awful movie.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by NemeBro
I've seen Cap 1.

Troy is an awful movie.

I would say Troy is better then Cap 1, that movie was hard to get through.

FrothByte
Originally posted by NemeBro
Troy had pretty terrible swordplay and fight scenes in general.

I nearly shit my pants laughing at Brad and Bana's homoerotic dance session fight.

That scene is widely considered one of the best sword fights in cinema. And while I also loved the fight scenes in CATWS, the fact that the Troy fight used very little cut scenes and almost no shaky cam makes me rank it higher.

NemeBro
Originally posted by FrothByte
That scene is widely considered one of the best sword fights in cinema.

By who?

A bunch of guys on a forum who don't know anything about combat?

It was bad. If you liked it that's fine. It was still bad. thumb up

Look at Rob Roy for a good example of cinematic swordplay. thumb up

KingD19
****in' Rob Roy, man.

Robtard
Rob Roy is a good movie and the fighting pretty much lacked silly dance moves and posturing.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by NemeBro
By who?

A bunch of guys on a forum who don't know anything about combat?

It was bad. If you liked it that's fine. It was still bad. thumb up

Look at Rob Roy for a good example of cinematic swordplay. thumb up


http://io9.com/5895092/10-of-the-most-awesome-sword-fight-scenes-ever

Mindset
Originally posted by Robtard
Rob Roy is a good movie and the fighting pretty much lacked silly dance moves and posturing. You just like it because Rob is in the title.

Robtard
Originally posted by Mindset
You just like it because Rob is in the title.

Roy, actually.

FrothByte
Originally posted by NemeBro
By who?

A bunch of guys on a forum who don't know anything about combat?

It was bad. If you liked it that's fine. It was still bad. thumb up

Look at Rob Roy for a good example of cinematic swordplay. thumb up

I practice HEMA, which is mostly medieval and renaissance sword-fighting arts. And though I'm by no means an expert at it, I'm pretty sure I know more about sword combat than your average internet forum warrior.

And let me tell you, every single movie sword fight is silly. Even the fight in Rob Roy is ridiculous if you take it from a realistic point of view.

That said, the choreography in Hector vs. Achilles was very tight, aggressive and brutal. A whole lot better than any Star Wars light saber fight. And while I do think Rob Roy's sword fight was better, I also know that trying to choreograph a fight with sword, shield and spear is a hell lot harder than choreographing a fight of sword vs. sword.

Dramatic Gecko
Didn't realise there was so much Achilles hate out there? And the only thing about Rob Roy was Liam Neeson, the rest of the movie was pretty shit. The assumption I'm going with is that Achilles would beat everyone on that movie with a sword. I know Achilles didn't actually know a real Sword Fighting style because he was a fictional Achilles with a fictional Swordplay style that trumped everyone else's.

Time Immemorial
There is serious hate for Achilles cause Quan shoved him down everyone's throat a long time ago and people are so bias and butthurt over it, they can't see the simple fact that that bana vs brad sword fight rivaled pretty much any sword fight on screen.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by FrothByte
I practice HEMA, which is mostly medieval and renaissance sword-fighting arts. And though I'm by no means an expert at it, I'm pretty sure I know more about sword combat than your average internet forum warrior.

And let me tell you, every single movie sword fight is silly. Even the fight in Rob Roy is ridiculous if you take it from a realistic point of view.

That said, the choreography in Hector vs. Achilles was very tight, aggressive and brutal. A whole lot better than any Star Wars light saber fight. And while I do think Rob Roy's sword fight was better, I also know that trying to choreograph a fight with sword, shield and spear is a hell lot harder than choreographing a fight of sword vs. sword.

Thats cool you do HEMA. I like Kendo, never tried HEMA.

FrothByte
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Thats cool you do HEMA. I like Kendo, never tried HEMA.

So you do kendo? Awesome. When I was younger I had always wanted to do kendo, but no kendo schools near my city. Eventually I left my hometown and roamed the world, and when I finally decided to go find a proper kendo school I found HEMA instead, which intrigued me due to the multiple weapons you could learn and spar with.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by FrothByte
So you do kendo? Awesome. When I was younger I had always wanted to do kendo, but no kendo schools near my city. Eventually I left my hometown and roamed the world, and when I finally decided to go find a proper kendo school I found HEMA instead, which intrigued me due to the multiple weapons you could learn and spar with.

I would not call myself an expert, I spar with a friend merely for connivence, I admire HEMA though, I think it is a cooler style. I might try it out sometime. It looks very intense.

RJ 2.0
Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Didn't realise there was so much Achilles hate out there? And the only thing about Rob Roy was Liam Neeson, the rest of the movie was pretty shit. The assumption I'm going with is that Achilles would beat everyone on that movie with a sword. I know Achilles didn't actually know a real Sword Fighting style because he was a fictional Achilles with a fictional Swordplay style that trumped everyone else's.

Achilles is absurdly overrated.

Psychotron
Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Achilles is absurdly overrated.

Not as much as Captain America.

RJ 2.0
Originally posted by Psychotron
Not as much as Captain America. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm gonna disagree with you there.

FrothByte
Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Achilles is absurdly overrated.

Not when it comes to swordplay.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm gonna disagree with you there.

You of all people cant be serious, you know the tremendous captain wanking that goes on here and have called it out numerous times.

Psychotron
Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm gonna disagree with you there.

k. You're still wrong, though.

Robtard
This is one whacked match. As it stands, Achilles takes it.

Standard gear for both, Cap kicks Greek ass via thrown shield and punch to the face.

wallman77
Originally posted by Robtard
This is one whacked match. As it stands, Achilles takes it.

Standard gear for both, Cap kicks Greek ass via thrown shield and punch to the face.


thumb up

Silent Master
Originally posted by Robtard
This is one whacked match. As it stands, Achilles takes it.

Standard gear for both, Cap kicks Greek ass via thrown shield and punch to the face.

Originally posted by wallman77
thumb up

+1

carver9
Originally posted by Psychotron
Not as much as Captain America.

This. And it's obvious who wins this and it's not Cap.

Silent Master
Originally posted by carver9
This. And it's obvious who wins this and it's not Cap.

You're just upset that the Cap movies made more than the Hulk's. smile

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Silent Master
You're just upset that the Cap movies made more than the Hulk's. smile

Shut up fan boy. You stick up for captain more then you do snake eyes and he's who you named yourself after. Pathetic, least carver has a spine.

NemeBro
Originally posted by FrothByte
I practice HEMA, which is mostly medieval and renaissance sword-fighting arts. And though I'm by no means an expert at it, I'm pretty sure I know more about sword combat than your average internet forum warrior.

No one knows more about combat than me, not even those who practice HEMA.



Why's that? There's a little flynning, but they fought like men trying to kill each other.

The fight scene from Troy didn't have this aspect. They avoided obvious holes in their opponent's defenses and mostly danced in close proximity of one another. thumb up



This is the same fight where Achilles bared his neck to Hector, begging him to stab it, only for Hector to swing over Achilles' head. Or when Hector wielded his sword and broken spear. Half the time he barely seemed to remember he had the broken spear.

Was it stylized and tight? Sure. But it was very flashy with no substance. Aggressive? Brutal? No not really. It was a dance scene.

Is it really though? I'm no cinematographer, but it seems to me that making a fight scene where there are more ways to kill someone is actually easier.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by NemeBro
No one knows more about combat than me, not even those who practice HEMA.



Why's that? There's a little flynning, but they fought like men trying to kill each other.

The fight scene from Troy didn't have this aspect. They avoided obvious holes in their opponent's defenses and mostly danced in close proximity of one another. thumb up



This is the same fight where Achilles bared his neck to Hector, begging him to stab it, only for Hector to swing over Achilles' head. Or when Hector wielded his sword and broken spear. Half the time he barely seemed to remember he had the broken spear.

Was it stylized and tight? Sure. But it was very flashy with no substance. Aggressive? Brutal? No not really. It was a dance scene.

Is it really though? I'm no cinematographer, but it seems to me that making a fight scene where there are more ways to kill someone is actually easier.

Sword fighting is a dance, even the sword master from GOT said so. Also if you watched the extra's they talked about the sword fight and said since achilles was a god, they wanted him to have an exotic fighting style.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Didn't realise there was so much Achilles hate out there? And the only thing about Rob Roy was Liam Neeson, the rest of the movie was pretty shit. The assumption I'm going with is that Achilles would beat everyone on that movie with a sword. I know Achilles didn't actually know a real Sword Fighting style because he was a fictional Achilles with a fictional Swordplay style that trumped everyone else's. Why is someone with a Sweeney Todd set calling anything shit?

Of course Achilles would beat everyone in that movie with a sword. He's a legitimate superhuman.

If you give them equal stats though? That metrosexual British fop would end Achilles. thumb up

Time Immemorial
Perseus gets more respect then Achilles and he had major help with things and was a legitimate demi god. I don't see why Achilles don't get respect for what he was doing. No help from anyone, not directly demi god powers according to some people. He had to put in major work to become what he had, Perseus was born with power.

FrothByte
Originally posted by NemeBro
No one knows more about combat than me, not even those who practice HEMA.

I take it that this comment was supposed to be a joke.


Originally posted by NemeBro

Why's that? There's a little flynning, but they fought like men trying to kill each other.

The fight scene from Troy didn't have this aspect. They avoided obvious holes in their opponent's defenses and mostly danced in close proximity of one another. thumb up

Well if you really want to get technical about it:

1. A basket-hilt broadsword is not really that heavy and is definitely not as slow as they portrayed in the fight
2. Cunningham's sword continuously changes. First he picks up something that looks like a sidesword, then later it looks like a saber, then later on it's more like a smallsword with a triangular blade. Triangular blades do not cut, they're made for stabbing, and yet Cunningham continuously cuts with it.
3. Cunningham blocks multiple times with the weak of his sword. When you block you're supposed to block with the strong of your sword. If it had been a real fight, majority of Neeson's attacks would have plowed through Cunningham's defenses.
4. Unless Cunningham is in ridiculously better shape than Neeson's character, Cunningham should have been the first one to tire considering that he was the one who kept moving about.
5. Just like in all other sword fights in movies, this fight had lots of openings. Had the combatants simply gone for a thrust instead of wildly cutting around the fight could have been over in a few seconds.

But like I said, this is a movie and I understand that it won't be realistic. So I appreciate it for what it is: good choreography. But in this sense, Troy is every bit just as good (even better in certain areas). If we were to judge them from a realistic point of view, they all suck.



Originally posted by NemeBro
This is the same fight where Achilles bared his neck to Hector, begging him to stab it, only for Hector to swing over Achilles' head. Or when Hector wielded his sword and broken spear. Half the time he barely seemed to remember he had the broken spear.

Was it stylized and tight? Sure. But it was very flashy with no substance. Aggressive? Brutal? No not really. It was a dance scene.

Is it really though? I'm no cinematographer, but it seems to me that making a fight scene where there are more ways to kill someone is actually easier.

There is about as much substance in the Troy fight as there was in the Rob Roy fight and about as much nonsense "dancing" as well (we call these flourishes). With the limited amount of fight choreography I've tried, I know for a fact that the more exotic the weapon the harder it is to choreograph. Also, the more weapons brought into the fight the harder it also is to choreograph. Sword, shield and spear is way harder to choreograph than single sword.

Firefly218
wow this got serious.

KingD19
Cap is physically superior. However he's given a weapon he knows nothing about against a guy who trained his entire life with the precursor to that weapon. Also Cap is given a dagger vs a sword-staff.

It's more than a little biased, but hey.

Robtard
27M5KWI_q50

Seems Archibald would kick Achilles' ass if he was going for the quick kill and not playing games. thumb up

Dramatic Gecko
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why is someone with a Sweeney Todd set calling anything shit?


Straw grasping...

Originally posted by RJ 2.0

Achilles is absurdly overrated.


Quite the rock solid argument you have there.



Achilles is more skilled than Captain America and we saw a normal human fighting on par with Cap based just on his skill. Give Cap his shield and this fight could go both ways.

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