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All-out only.

Takes place in the Death Star throne room.

Dooku - 7 of 10.

Dooku's saber edge is too big.

Remember that Marek's lightsaber skill was said to be "almost-perfect" and he did beat Vader in sabers.

First off, that was just pre ANH Vader. Impressive, but Dooku is above ANH Vader in my opinion. Secondly, Dooku's application of force in combat is somehow more impressive than Galen's.

Galen also had encyclopedic knowledge of Vader's form, which allowed the fight to be prolonged despite Galen's evident lack of skill. He was also faster than Vader, which led to his winning blow - another advantage he lacks here. Galen has been dominated or rivaled by people Dooku could annihilate on his worst day, so there isn't much discussion in terms of lightsaber skill.

In terms of power, Galen isn't leaps and bounds above the count, although the difference is noticeable. I'm giving the majority to Dooku though.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
First off, that was just pre ANH Vader. Impressive, but Dooku is above ANH Vader in my opinion.

So is Galen so....?

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Secondly, Dooku's application of force in combat is somehow more impressive than Galen's.

Lol, nah. Dooku couldn't ragdoll Vader like Galen did in that fight.

Originally posted by ILS
Galen also had encyclopedic knowledge of Vader's form, which allowed the fight to be prolonged despite Galen's evident lack of skill.

Vader also had equal knowledge of Galen's form though and he was pulling out things Galen hadn't ever seen. And wtf? Evident lack of skill? I just said he had almost perfect skill you dork.

Originally posted by ILS
He was also faster than Vader, which led to his winning blow - another advantage he lacks here.

True, but Dooku also lacks an advantage Vader had over Marek, his immense strength.

Originally posted by ILS
Galen has been dominated or rivaled by people Dooku could annihilate on his worst day, so there isn't much discussion in terms of lightsaber skill.

Nah. And Galen improved throughout the game.

Originally posted by ILS
In terms of power, Galen isn't leaps and bounds above the count, although the difference is noticeable. I'm giving the majority to Dooku though.

Debatable. Hopefully.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, nah. Dooku couldn't ragdoll Vader like Galen did in that fight

ANH Vader couldn't overpower rusty Ben Kenobi, and was almost killed by TPM Maul's clone. He also lost lightsaber duel to a guy, who was equal to Shaak Ti at best. ANH Vader was far from being impressive. Dooku would crash that version of Darth Vader.

And Obi-Wan and Maul are suddenly shit because? Also Shaak Ti had clearly improved and had an environmental advantage of top of being fresh while Galen had been fighting for a long time. I'm not saying Galen or ANH Vader can beat Dooku in lightsabers, just that they could last a decent amount of time and wouldn't get trashed.

But in the Force? Vader has some stellar feats by this point. Dooku isn't beating him like Galen did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So is Galen so....?

Didn't Starkiller struggle against Rahm, Paratus and Shaak Ti?(With Ti being, Arguably the third strongest person Starkiller ever faced?)



Agreed, Starkiller's TK is much more destructive and potent.



Again, i agreed with you, having trained for so long, it's only natural they become familiarized with one another's forms - they both share the same one iirc, but despite his "almost perfect skill" Starkiller was falling to Shaak Ti and just barely survived. not a bad feat at all. Just stating facts.



True enough, but what he lacks in "immense strength" he makes up for in deadly precision and agility - both of which nearly killed Starkiller at one point or another.



Um... Aren't Novels above Video games? even if that were true, Starkiller's skill wouldn't improve greatly over the span of - what, three, five months?(A quote on this would be appreciated)

Also which Starkiller is this? TFU or TFU2?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Didn't Starkiller struggle against Rahm, Paratus and Shaak Ti?(With Ti being, Arguably the third strongest person Starkiller ever faced?)

Rahm Kota- Not really no. He put up a fight but Galen didn't really "struggle" to beat him and he had the upper hand as a duellist. It's noted specifically in the novel that Kota takes hits while Galen doesn't.

Paratus- Galen had difficulty here but it was more to do with Paratus's robot legs (which greatly increased his speed, agility and reach) rather than pure sabre skill.

Shaak Ti- Yes she clearly had the upper hand in swordsmanship. As pointed out though, she had an edge due to the environment and was fully rested while he had just fought through an army of her minions.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Um... Aren't Novels above Video games? even if that were true, Starkiller's skill wouldn't improve greatly over the span of - what, three, five months?(A quote on this would be appreciated)


It's stated in the novel that he's getting better all the time.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Also which Starkiller is this? TFU or TFU2?

The OP specified Galen Marek so it's TFU (TFU II is about the clone who's only named Starkiller. He himself states that he doesn't think of himself as Galen).

Galen Marek had a power boost at least 3 times in TFU1. So if this is Prime Galen then I give him the majority.

FYI Dooku is still his superior in Sabers. Dooku is also above Prime Vader (ROTJ) in Sabers. But I'd also give Prime Vader (ROTJ) a majority against Dooku in an all out personally. Dooku would however take a majority against either of them at any other time period (as in any time that was not their short lived peak period).

Originally posted by chilled monkey




It's stated in the novel that he's getting better all the time.

Quote?

Yeah, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, i'd also like to see the quote chilled monkey.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Galen Marek had a power boost at least 3 times in TFU1. So if this is Prime Galen then I give him the majority.

FYI Dooku is still his superior in Sabers. Dooku is also above Prime Vader (ROTJ) in Sabers. But I'd also give Prime Vader (ROTJ) a majority against Dooku in an all out personally. Dooku would however take a majority against either of them at any other time period (as in any time that was not their short lived peak period).

He isnt above Vader in sabers, skill yes, But Vaders strength, Dookus weakness to Djem so, plus the fact there is really nothing Dooku can do to harm Vader physically makes Dooku die in a saber duel.

Originally posted by carthage
He isnt above Vader in sabers, skill yes, But Vaders strength, Dookus weakness to Djem so, plus the fact there is really nothing Dooku can do to harm Vader physically makes Dooku die in a saber duel.


There's no "weakness" to Djem So.

Vader's strength on it's own won't put Dooku down. But his strength backed up by his Raw Tk will be Dooku's worst nightmare (especially given how skilled Vader is himself). But then that would be part of an all out, not just Sabers.

You have a good point about the physicality though. Dooku tends to get in either physical attacks, or Tk attacks during dueling to get the better of his opponent. Both those attacks Vader can tank better than most.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Um... Aren't Novels above Video games? even if that were true, Starkiller's skill wouldn't improve greatly over the span of - what, three, five months?(A quote on this would be appreciated)

Nope. Equal.

Originally posted by King Joker
Quote?

I honestly can't be bothered to search the entire thing for it to help out in this, mostly because I don't have the faintest idea which chapter it's in, but I do remember that quote and can vouch for him.

It's something along the lines of getting stronger with every mission, every Jedi he slays, and being nothing like the man who stormed Kota's station.

There's at least 3 times in TFU Novel when Starkiller's stated to have reached a stronger connection to the force than he ever previously had. Once when he fought those shadow guards, once when he stopped the star destroyer, and once when he fought Vader.

Then there's the graphic novel which outright states he became more powerful after seeing the vision of Vader killing his father.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's no "weakness" to Djem So.

Vader's strength on it's own won't put Dooku down. But his strength backed up by his Raw Tk will be Dooku's worst nightmare (especially given how skilled Vader is himself). But then that would be part of an all out, not just Sabers.

You have a good point about the physicality though. Dooku tends to get in either physical attacks, or Tk attacks during dueling to get the better of his opponent. Both those attacks Vader can tank better than most.

Your pos indicated a match of pure sabers. Vaders TK is far superior to the Counts. In a match of pure sabers Dooku is more agile, but the speed difference isnt massive. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport, moved fast enough to appear as if he materialized out of thin air, and blitzed a Jedi decades before his prime. Dooku has the inherent mobility advantage of Makashi's mobility, but he cant damage Vader as he is weaker, and Vaders strength gradually wear him down as in the ROTS duel

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Equal.
Which is the trouble. I usually just take the one that has Marek doing the most comparable to PT Jedi, i.e. which ever one he gets his ass handed to him the most in. TFUII through a curveball at this one, though.

Originally posted by carthage
Your pos indicated a match of pure sabers.


No. Dooku is better in that regard.

Originally posted by carthage
Vaders TK is far superior to the Counts.


I've not denied that. Or that Prime OT Vader would take Dooku in an all out. But Dooku still has one advantage in The Force - his FL.

Originally posted by carthage
In a match of pure sabers Dooku is more agile, but the speed difference isnt massive. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport, moved fast enough to appear as if he materialized out of thin air, and blitzed a Jedi decades before his prime. Dooku has the inherent mobility advantage of Makashi's mobility,


Those speed quotes sound like the usual hyperbole, and not real evidence of his speed as compared to other Jedi. This is the same guy who struggled to defeat Old Ben in Sabers. Do you think Old Ben is Dooku's equal/superior in speed now?


Originally posted by carthage
but he cant damage Vader as he is weaker,


He can still hurt Vader via FL or just via his Saber. And I've realized even his Kicks will still be lethal, given ROTJ Luke's kick floored Vader.

Originally posted by carthage
and Vaders strength gradually wear him down as in the ROTS duel


That's like saying Grievous would eventually wear down Dooku's defenses just because he's really "strong."

No. This isn't ROTS Anakin, with Raw Force power that potentially exceeds even Yoda's at his disposal, on top of a Cyborg arm himself, and on top of being much more naturally mobile than OT Vader himself.

And he doesn't have Kenobi helping him here either.

Dooku's not going to lose because he gets tired. And it's going to be nothing like the ROTS Duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Those speed quotes sound like the usual hyperbole, and not real evidence of his speed as compared to other Jedi. This is the same guy who struggled to defeat Old Ben in Sabers. Do you think Old Ben is Dooku's equal/superior in speed now?

He struggled to defeat Old Ben not because he wasn't fast enough, but because Ben was still a formidable Soresu master despite his age.

Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practicioner.

-- Insider 62: Fightsaber

And yes, those speed showings are representative of Vader's normal speed. There's hardly anything hyperbolic about them. He also has high and low showings, of course, but those are much rarer. Vader is simply considerably less agile than he was as Anakin, but that doesn't mean that his speed can't be impressive (though he is below Dooku in this regard). Speed and agility are not the same thing, and many of Vader's few low showings involve more the latter than the former.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But his strength backed up by his Raw Tk will be Dooku's worst nightmare (especially given how skilled Vader is himself).

I'm not so sure. ROTS Anakin was superior Djem So user to ROTJ Vader, he was at least twice as powerful in the Force (in terms of raw power, I mean), and he was much faster.
Vader with his own physcial strenght and raw power in the Force was unable to hold off Luke's strikes enhanced by his full raw power in the Force.

Vader was exhausted and Luke's strikes had put him on the ground.
Anakin also overhelmed Dooku with his strenght enhanced by his raw power, but at the end he had to outmanuvered Dooku to defeat him.

Considering the fact, that ROTS Anakin was superior to Luke in terms of Djem So's technique, physical strenght, raw power in the Force and possibly speed, it looks that Dooku could handle those kind of fighters much better then Vader.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
He struggled to defeat Old Ben not because he wasn't fast enough, but because Ben was still a formidable Soresu master despite his age.

Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practicioner.

-- Insider 62: Fightsaber

And yes, those speed showings are representative of Vader's normal speed. There's hardly anything hyperbolic about them. He also has high and low showings, of course, but those are much rarer. Vader is simply considerably less agile than he was as Anakin, but that doesn't mean that his speed can't be impressive (though he is below Dooku in this regard). Speed and agility are not the same thing, and many of Vader's few low showings involve more the latter than the former.

They are hyperbole. Jedi/Sith don't actually move so fast that they're invisible or that they look like they've teleported. If they did then people like Pre-Viszla and Jango Fett would never be capable of even challenging the likes of Maul and Kenobi let alone going toe to toe with them. Jedi/Sith are not DC Comic level speedsters or anything of the sort. Their speed and mobility is more akin to Spider-Man or Blade. And those are the more talented ones.

Makashi is also excellent at deflecting Saber strikes. So Vader would have the same problem against the Master of Makashi.

You agree that Dooku is clearly faster anyway so I'm not going to get into a drawn out discussion on the issue unless you think Vader is Dooku's equal or superior in a Pure Saber match.

Originally posted by carthage
Your pos indicated a match of pure sabers. Vaders TK is far superior to the Counts. In a match of pure sabers Dooku is more agile, but the speed difference isnt massive. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport, moved fast enough to appear as if he materialized out of thin air, and blitzed a Jedi decades before his prime. Dooku has the inherent mobility advantage of Makashi's mobility, but he cant damage Vader as he is weaker, and Vaders strength gradually wear him down as in the ROTS duel

The speed difference between Vader & Dooku is massive. Especially when you think their low-end feats. But somehow people are forgetting that, yes when you just see Vader's high-end feats the speed difference is not massive, but when you see all of them, yes it is damn massive, and Vader shouldn't be faster than PT prime jedi masters to begin with. (by Lucas)

And, can someone explain to me how RotJ Luke defeated RotJ Vader in lightsaber combat ? I mean, was Luke more skillful and physically stronger than Vader ? Nah, he was just faster than him.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And, can someone explain to me how RotJ Luke defeated RotJ Vader in lightsaber combat ? I mean, was Luke more skillful and physically stronger than Vader ? Nah, he was just faster than him.

Luke probably was faster, but that wasn't a factor in their fight. Vader didn't loose because of Luke's greater speed, skill or smothing like that. He lost because Luke's strikes exaused him and put him on the ground.
Luke has beaten Vader because of his superior raw power in the Force. Dooku was defeated in the same way (but by superior opponent).

Originally posted by McP
Luke probably was faster, but that wasn't a factor in their fight. Vader didn't loose because of Luke's greater speed, skill or smothing like that. He lost because Luke's strikes exaused him and put him on the ground.
Luke has beaten Vader because of his superior raw power in the Force. Dooku was defeated in the same way (but by superior opponent).

Dooku defeated because of Anakin's kinetic power, I still put Dooku higher than Anakin in terms of speed. But the speed difference was not massive, and that is why Anakin was able to use his physical advantage over Dooku. But Vader ? Anakin was much faster than Vader, that is why Vader can't use his physical advantage over Dooku because of that massive speed difference.

I read the RotJ novel to find some evidence about speed difference between Vader and RotJ Luke, it says that Luke has --timing-- advantage over Vader ;



And this ;

Have you seen ROTJ movie? Movies > Novels as a canon sources.

Originally posted by McP
Have you seen ROTJ movie? Movies > Novels as a canon sources.

I know, what's your point ?

Luke's speed doesn't matter, Vader was just lying on the floor and could do nothing, because he was completly exhausted. Luke already won that fight even before Vader's hand was cut off.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18300000/Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-Of-The-Jedi-Darth-Vader-darth-vader-18356420-1050-656.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SNcKbJlEr7I/TE32uV6GPvI/AAAAAAAAAA8/hvRLAIaHy0w/s1600/darth_vader_luke.jpg


(...)and as he fell back against the bridge's railing he was unable to stop Luke's blade from severing his right wrist. Metal and electronic parts flew from Vader's shattered stump, and his lightsaber clattered over the edge of the bridge and into the apparently bottomless shaft. Badly wounded and utterly exhausted, Vader looked up to see Luke's lightsaber angled to deliver a killing stroke.

"Rise and Fall of Darth Vader"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They are hyperbole. Jedi/Sith don't actually move so fast that they're invisible or that they look like they've teleported. If they did then people like Pre-Viszla and Jango Fett would never be capable of even challenging the likes of Maul and Kenobi let alone going toe to toe with them. Jedi/Sith are not DC Comic level speedsters or anything of the sort. Their speed and mobility is more akin to Spider-Man or Blade. And those are the more talented ones.

Makashi is also excellent at deflecting Saber strikes. So Vader would have the same problem against the Master of Makashi.

You agree that Dooku is clearly faster anyway so I'm not going to get into a drawn out discussion on the issue unless you think Vader is Dooku's equal or superior in a Pure Saber match.

No? People like Mace Windu and Darth Maul replicated that level of speed. Others like Anakin have moved so fast that they appeared to be in dozens of places at once and created many afterimages of themselves. Obi-Wan has deflected blaster fire from an army of droid, and formed a shield out of his blade ( the latter was also replicated by Vader), etc.

Moving invisibly fast is fodder level speed anyway, and the characters I mentioned aren't even the best in this regard.

TCW doesn't portray speed levels like the EU, so this doesn't change Legends Force user's ability to move at that speed. Of course, if you take TCW more seriously, you should disregard ALL speed feats from all character to be coherent

Not only that, but many of Vader's feats wer shown in comics so it's not hyperbole. You could say that some of his high showing are hyperbole, but most of Vader's showings don't fall under that category.

I still agree that Dooku is faster, but not by much. He is also more skilled than Rotj Vader, so he would win against Galen (whose ragdolling of Vader with TK is inconsistent anyways).

Moving imperceptibly fast is child's play for beings like Dooku, Kenobi or Maul, honestly. Not all of it is hyperbole.

@McP

Why Vader was exhausted ? Novel says that, his timing is not enough to tag Luke, and he was not fast enough to defend himself. Don't tell me that Vader was exhausted because Luke was physically stronger than Vader.

Do you know, that you have posted a part of their fight on Mimban? That was Luke supported by Ben as I remember (anyway, "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" was possibly the worst book in the whole universe).

Strenght isn't much of a factor in a duels. Especially when Force user is enhance by the Force.
Luke was physically weaker, but his raw power was superior. Which made his blows superior to Vader's in terms of kinetic power. That's why Vader was forced onto deep defensive and defeated.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
No? People like Mace Windu and Darth Maul replicated that level of speed. Others like Anakin have moved so fast that they appeared to be in dozens of places at once and created many afterimages of themselves. Obi-Wan has deflected blaster fire from an army of droid, and formed a shield out of his blade ( the latter was also replicated by Vader), etc.

Moving invisibly fast is fodder level speed anyway, and the characters I mentioned aren't even the best in this regard.

TCW doesn't portray speed levels like the EU, so this doesn't change Legends Force user's ability to move at that speed. Of course, if you take TCW more seriously, you should disregard ALL speed feats from all character to be coherent

Not only that, but many of Vader's feats wer shown in comics so it's not hyperbole. You could say that some of his high showing are hyperbole, but most of Vader's showings don't fall under that category.

I still agree that Dooku is faster, but not by much. He is also more skilled than Rotj Vader, so he would win against Galen (whose ragdolling of Vader with TK is inconsistent anyways).


Even within Legends, feats and consistency took a second place to G and T Canon. Leeland Chee made that clear years ago.

Jedi are fast, but they're no DC type speedsters.

In any case for all Vader's "speed feats" he was no faster than Old Ben.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which is the trouble. I usually just take the one that has Marek doing the most comparable to PT Jedi, i.e. which ever one he gets his ass handed to him the most in. TFUII through a curveball at this one, though.

I go with what ever makes Vader look the most bad ass.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even within Legends, feats and consistency took a second place to G and T Canon. Leeland Chee made that clear years ago.

Jedi are fast, but they're no DC type speedsters.

In any case for all Vader's "speed feats" he was no faster than Old Ben.

What did he mean? That whenever a character is faster than what's shown in the movies/TCW the feat becomes invalid? I don't think so, and again, it's just about different ways of portraying characters in mediums, not to mention that what you said is ambiguous. I suggest you post the quote for clarification. And would you also dismiss many Force feats becuse movies/TCW don't include that kind of stuff? Not to mention that even in movies, people can move fast as blurs (see TPM). Heck, in Rebels even Ezra (who is totally untrained) was dodging several blaster bolts from a Tie fighter by moving invisibly fast/fast as a blur, or something like that, so I don't see what's the contradiction, honestly, other than your notion that Jedi/Sith just can't be that fast because reasons.

Originally posted by ares834
I go with what ever makes Vader look the most bad ass.
Well yes, but that goes without saying.

As to Jedi speed feats, Jedi are always shown to be fast in TCW. Just not when it's important. That's how they able to block blaster bolts moving faster than tracers can move and can jump on speeders going full throttle.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
What did he mean? That whenever a character is faster than what's shown in the movies/TCW the feat becomes invalid?


I mean I take "descriptions" of speed with a grain of salt, and go more by what's displayed visually.

In animation form there's no excuse not to show Jedi/Sith being "Invisible" or seeming like they "teleport." Fact is they're not displayed like that because they're not supposed to be that fast. If they were the droids on Geonosia wouldn't stand a chance, and Dooku could never have been caught by pirates.


Originally posted by Nargaroth
I don't think so, and again, it's just about different ways of portraying characters in mediums,


Exactly they're portrayed differently in different mediums, but the G and T Canon mediums are the closest to how they are actually supposed to be.


Originally posted by Nargaroth
not to mention that what you said is ambiguous. I suggest you post the quote for clarification.


I don't have the quote, but it was discussed in length on these boards years ago. In either case it's kind of irrelevant now as all the Legends stuff has been separated from Official canon sources.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
And would you also dismiss many Force feats becuse movies/TCW don't include that kind of stuff?

I would dismiss "descriptions" which could easily be hyperbolic. And recognize that anything beyond Sidious/Yoda from G and T Canon sources is likely just the depiction of force powers from a different medium. A less Canon medium though.


Originally posted by Nargaroth
Not to mention that even in movies, people can move fast as blurs (see TPM).


We've seen "bursts" of speed twice in 6 movies. The one you mentioned and Luke's leap in ESB. But they've never been displayed as "blurs" throughout a whole fight in the films or in animation.

And even in those 2 "bursts", they were clearly still "visible."

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Heck, in Rebels even Ezra (who is totally untrained) was dodging several blaster bolts from a Tie fighter by moving invisibly fast/fast as a blur, or something like that, so I don't see what's the contradiction, honestly, other than your notion that Jedi/Sith just can't be that fast because reasons.


I haven't once denied Jedi/Sith are great at dodging. They are via Pre-Cog, speed, leaps and great agility. But not just through sheer speed. More on a Spider-Man type level. But not by being invisible like Quicksilver or The Flash.

I don't even once remember Ezra being "invisible." He was very visible. As were the fastest 2 Jedi/Sith, Yoda and Sidious when we saw them fight in TCW Animation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I mean I take "descriptions" of speed with a grain of salt, and go more by what's displayed visually.

In animation form there's no excuse not to show Jedi/Sith being "Invisible" or seeming like they "teleport." Fact is they're not displayed like that because they're not supposed to be that fast. If they were the droids on Geonosia wouldn't stand a chance, and Dooku could never have been caught by pirates.

Okay, your choice, but that still doesn't make those showings invalid just because a superior canon source doesn't portray that kind of stuff, which doesn't necessarily indicate a direct contradiction. And there are excuses for not showing such feats, like the fact that SW movies simply don't focus on that, and probably don't pay attention to speed (which to my momory is also not shown to be on that level in some Marvel movies), and then obviously because it's far easier for people to enjoy the movies with characters not moving at incredible speed.

And it's obvious that most Jedi/Sith would die when they're heavily outnumbered by droids/clone troopers. Even in EU stories, Jedi can die by blaster fire even without being that much outnumbered. As for non Force-sensitives, Durge was able to see Obi-Wan in slow motion and keep up with him, but that doesn't make Jedi's EU feats invalid. Not all Force users are equal, and not all of them (actually not many of them) can move so overwhelmingly faster than normal people that they could always beat them instantly, otherwise they would constantly stomp entire armies, which doesn't happen often in the EU. That's partally for story reasons. Your example I'm afraid doesn't prove anything.

As for Dooku vs pirates, the Count has an excuse, which is being a practitioner of Makashi, a style not suited for blaster deflection. That showing is inconsistent anyway, considering how Savage (who is slower than Dooku or even Vader) was temporarily deflecting torrential amounts of omnidirectional blaster fire (a better feat than moving invisibly fast), and Dooku was dodging his blows, yet he is defeated by pirates? Sorry, but that is probably the worst example you could choose. Maul vs Vizsla is also a low showing for the former.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't have the quote, but it was discussed in length on these boards years ago. In either case it's kind of irrelevant now as all the Legends stuff has been separated from Official canon sources.


?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I would dismiss "descriptions" which could easily be hyperbolic. And recognize that anything beyond Sidious/Yoda from G and T Canon sources is likely just the depiction of force powers from a different medium. A less Canon medium though.


Hyperbole is a statement that doesn't actually describe something and is self-evidently exaggerated, and other than all the movie vs EU stuff (which in this case is at leat questionable) there is nothing to contradict them as something impossible.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We've seen "bursts" of speed twice in 6 movies. The one you mentioned and Luke's leap in ESB. But they've never been displayed as "blurs" throughout a whole fight in the films or in animation.

And even in those 2 "bursts", they were clearly still "visible."

Obi-wan and Qui-Gon were clearly moving fast as blurs, and were not that visible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY4tXUtu9_I

And many EU characters also haven't displayed that throughout an entire battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I haven't once denied Jedi/Sith are great at dodging. They are via Pre-Cog, speed, leaps and great agility. But not just through sheer speed. More on a Spider-Man type level. But not by being invisible like Quicksilver or The Flash.

I don't even once remember Ezra being "invisible." He was very visible. As were the fastest 2 Jedi/Sith, Yoda and Sidious when we saw them fight in TCW Animation.

Pre-Cog, isn't gonna save you if you don't have the speed to dodge blaser bolts (that's similar to Naruto's Sharingan). Ezra probably wasn't invisible, but he's still totally untrained, and he dodged multiple blaster bolts while turned. Here's the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWZYQ48YGrk#!

Vader, who is interminably more powerful than not only him, but also the other people I mentioned (aside from maybe Savage, who is still at least considerably below him), should logically be able to perform much better feats. Yes, he is also hindered by his cybernetics (as per EU sources), but they are mostly shown to affect his agility, and his ability to augment his speed with the Force should compensate for this anyways.