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Kind of a tie in to Emperor's Low showings thread he made a while back, but this pertains mainly to lightsaber/all out matches. What are some of the worst matches you've seen in the mythos, where one party clearly has an advantage but loses due to plot armor or some inexplicable change in the setting? How would the match have changed if the match had gone on when X character had the advantage? To make things more interesting, does the EU have more PIS in matches or does the PT series/novels etc?

Literally every fight with the Kenobi/Skywalker duo in TCW. They should realistically be the dream team, but they always underperform against enemies that just one of them has done better against solo.

Darth Maul being bisected during TPM. It's the perfect example of PIS coming into play.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Literally every fight with the Kenobi/Skywalker duo in TCW. They should realistically be the dream team, but they always underperform against enemies that just one of them has done better against solo.
Yeah they are the worst duo.
Anakin holds back on his emotions, so his offensive advantages are not realized.
While Kenobi excel at defensive style, while in duo he needs to fight offensively, which is clearly not his thing, that makes him both ineffective and prone to mistakes.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Literally every fight with the Kenobi/Skywalker duo in TCW. They should realistically be the dream team, but they always underperform against enemies that just one of them has done better against solo.


They only underperformed against Dooku in season 6 Iirc. Who else did they underperform against?

I remember one time against Ventress where she was rage enhanced and they were clearly still holding back (having her defeated and asking her to surrender twice), but they still won.

Originally posted by Arhael

Anakin holds back on his emotions, so his offensive advantages are not realized.
While Kenobi excel at defensive style, while in duo he needs to fight offensively,


This is true.

Although against Ventress she mainly uses her Jar Kai to just defend against the 2 of them. And even that is clearly not something she can do indefinitely. It's more just used as a tactic to hold them both off for a while.

If they had any sense though they would just combine their force tk powers on her Lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is true.

Although against Ventress she mainly uses her Jar Kai to just defend against the 2 of them. And even that is clearly not something she can do indefinitely. It's more just used as a tactic to hold them both off for a while.

If they had any sense though they would just combine their force tk powers on her Lol
Wondering what prevents Force users to gank an opponent with combined TK. Logically they should have used that against Dooku as well. I guess it comes down to the fact that head on attack can be easily resisted, even if it is a combined effort, hence more convenient to use the right moment. Regardless, the show would be lame, if they did that.

In EU the only examples I remember are when Luke fought multiple opponents. At one point he was blocking lightning of two witches at the same time. Another - when he was surrounded by 20-30 Sith, although he was exhausted from encounter with Abeloth, he was still able to defense against their combined TK. So I guess it's easy to defend against TK that is expected.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wondering what prevents Force users to gank an opponent with combined TK. Logically they should have used that against Dooku as well. I guess it comes down to the fact that head on attack can be easily resisted, even if it is a combined effort, hence more convenient to use the right moment. Regardless, the show would be lame, if they did that.




I agree you have to find your moment especially in a close up Saber fight. Otherwise if they are about to force push Ventress together, and if Ventress sees it coming, she could just attack with her Sabers in that moment. (But there's also a little PIS involved like you said, because the fights would be s*** )

The duo did actually attempt it against Dooku in their S6 fight when he was at a distance Iirc, but he leaped up and dodged it.

To me Force pushes (and physical attacks) are just a standard part of a lightsaber fight. So when Dooku(ROTS) or Maul(TPM) force pushes Kenobi, I don't see it as "that's because they are stronger in the force." I just see it as Dooku/Maul fighting better than Kenobi in those particular fights.

We saw when Anakin fought Kenobi, they fought each other so equally that they couldn't catch each other off guard with a force push, and just ended up force pushing each other.

But still I think that Maul and Dooku do have greater tk than Kenobi, but that's not why he gets force pushed. He gets force pushed because he doesn't see it coming. The same reason why opponents get kicked as well tbf.

Agree.

Any Force user fighting against any non-Force user. Greivous and Fett should realistically stand no chance against a Jedi in a fair fight simply because they can't possibly counter invisible, instantaneous, durasteel-bending telekensis that can be activated on a thought. And Fett or even Greivous trying to engage a Jedi in H2H doesn't make much more sense when you consider these Jedi have precognition and clearly supernatural physical abilities to fall tens of thousands of feet without injury, and could shatter every bone in your body with a thought. Even Greivous shouldn't be able to touch them, lightsaber or no.

Luke Skywalker frequently underperforms against generic, throwaway enemies, while giving beat-downs to Palpatine-level and eldritch abomination threats. He seems to play up and down to his competition.

A similar problem applies to Anakin and Obi Wan, 'cause for storytelling purposes they need them to struggle against the Villain of the Week while still giving Darth Tyrannus a run for his money whenever he comes to town.



It should be noted that such inconsistencies in characters aren't necessarily plot holes because this happens all the time in real life. Were the 2007 Patriots being influenced by matrix-esque PIS when they were beaten by the Giants? People choke.

^Do you post at comicvine perchance?

^I do not. I've posted at spacebattles and SDN.

Ah ok

Eh Grievous being able to match them in melee combat makes sense.

Jedi usually aren't actually that great at using TK in a fight.

Revan vs Vitiate. Meetra could have killed Vitiate yet instead was determined to save Revan despite a chapter before was ranting about how Jedi accept sacrifices for the greater good.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Any Force user fighting against any non-Force user. Greivous and Fett should realistically stand no chance against a Jedi in a fair fight simply because they can't possibly counter invisible, instantaneous, durasteel-bending telekensis that can be activated on a thought. And Fett or even Greivous trying to engage a Jedi in H2H doesn't make much more sense when you consider these Jedi have precognition and clearly supernatural physical abilities to fall tens of thousands of feet without injury, and could shatter every bone in your body with a thought. Even Greivous shouldn't be able to touch them, lightsaber or no.

You have a point with Fett. Grievous however makes perfect sense. He has a solid steel body and cybernetic augmentations which give him superhuman strength, reflexes and endurance in his own right. Him being able to defeat Jedi is no problem. Jedi are powerful but they aren't gods.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
and could shatter every bone in your body with a thought.

Jedi are generally against using the Force to harm other living beings. Sure they'll use Force pushes to throw guys off-balance and the like, but killing/crippling them? Big no-no, same reason they don't normally use Force lightning. Just because you CAN "shatter every bone in your body with a thought," doesn't mean you SHOULD.

It's like Superman. The only reason some of his foes are able to fight him at all is because he doesn't want to kill or cripple them so he holds back because of his morals.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Luke Skywalker frequently underperforms against generic, throwaway enemies, while giving beat-downs to Palpatine-level and eldritch abomination threats. He seems to play up and down to his competition.

I personally chalk that up to Luke holding back a lot due to being wary of his own power. Again, it's like Superman.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
A similar problem applies to Anakin and Obi Wan, 'cause for storytelling purposes they need them to struggle against the Villain of the Week while still giving Darth Tyrannus a run for his money whenever he comes to town.

It should be noted that such inconsistencies in characters aren't necessarily plot holes because this happens all the time in real life. Were the 2007 Patriots being influenced by matrix-esque PIS when they were beaten by the Giants? People choke.

Very true. I'm glad to see that some people realise this.

Worst PIS for me would be anything written by Karen Traviss involving Mandalorians vs. Jedi.

Don't get me wrong she's a fine author but she does display a clear bias in that case.

Vader tripping over his own arm.