Superman Prime VS THE DBZ UNIVERSE

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Superman PRIME??!? But that's not fair...

Whis is our only hope. Or a Whis Bills FUSION! OR A SUPERSAIYAN GOD VEGETO!

Unless we get to this level DBZ is gonna die.

Or they all train and you just made them all stronger by introducing Superman Prime to their universe.

At this point, most powerful DBZ characters are Godku, Beers and Whis, with Beers being a casual Solar System destroyer, and thus multi SS level at his 100%.
We also know that, for comparison sake, Godku is 6, Beers is 10 and Whis is 15.
No one of them can keep up with Prime, as far as I'm concerned, but a Ssj God Vegetto I think could, and quite well at that: in fact, we know that Godku power is the result of combination of the Ssj God boost and base Goku's level.
Now, given the huge gap base Vegetto had over base Goku (base Vegetto >= Ultimate Gohan > Ssj3 Gotenks >= Super Boo > Ssj2 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks (post RoSat) > base Gotenks (post RoSat) > Ssj3 Goku > Ssj2 Goku > Ssj Goku > base Goku), a hypothetical God Vegetto would come up with a level in the high thousands (if not millions), compared to Whis being at 15, for example.
So yeah, Prime could even get his ass kicked by that Vegetto (but Guardian Amped Prime would still win).

BloodRain

Whats the line thats making everyone say its a casual thing?

Galan007

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
(base Vegetto >= Ultimate Gohan > Ssj3 Gotenks >= Super Boo > Ssj2 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks (post RoSat) > base Gotenks (post RoSat) > Ssj3 Goku > Ssj2 Goku > Ssj Goku > base Goku) The part of the show in which base Vegito battled Buuhan for a while is non-canon anime filler. In the manga, Vegito transformed into a SSJ almost immediately after conception--he never battled Buuhan for any length of time in his base form.

Though in this particular forum, the anime may take precedence. Dunno. /shrug

Originally posted by BloodRain
Whats the line thats making everyone say its a casual thing? That's just opinion. The exact line from Whis(in the official English dub) is as follows:
"Attention! Please watch your language, lest you offend Beerus. Otherwise he won't just destroy the Earth, but the entire solar system as well."

The ease in which Beerus can solar system-bust was left ambiguous, at best.

ares834

Wasn't the translation that he could destroy a galaxy solar system in an instant?

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by Galan007
That's what my fan-dub said, yes.

I'm not saying Beerus can't wipe out the solar system in one fell swoop, btw. Just pointing out the English dub's line is all. thumb up

I'm just telling you that original japanese work is > any english dub, which is just a subordinate source in quality.

Originally posted by Galan007
No need for these long and unneeded write-ups. I'm just telling you that the scene you're using to judge Vegito's base PL is non-canon anime filler. That is all. thumb up

You don't have to tell me base Vegetto's fight is filler, I know that.
That's why I wrote that long write-up, as you called it. thumb up

Originally posted by Galan007
Not saying he's wrong, but telling me that I should hold a fan's translation in higher esteem than the official English dub is kind of silly/ironic.

Fan translation?
Err, Kanzenshuu is the most trustable DB surce you can find worldwide on the internet, and amongst them, Herms is probably the landmark.
When it comes to DB, this is the best source bar none, and DB enthusiasts know that.
English dub is just rubbish in comparison, or, to better say it, it's decent when you want to have fun watching the show with your friends, but it isn't even worthy to be considered when debating or when you want to really know even the smallest detail about AT's work.
But this not because it is the english dub mind you, it's the same with everything that isn't the original japanese source.

BloodRain

So its only said he's a SS buster when pissed, nothing about it being casual at all?

Lek Kuen

Originally posted by Galan007

Not saying he's wrong, but telling me that I should hold a fan's translation in higher esteem than the official English dub is kind of silly/ironic.

Does the American release have subs? Might be worth a look to see what the official English subtitles say

Galan007

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
You don't have to tell me base Vegetto's fight is filler, I know that. Given that your original rationale for base Vegito being above the Z fighters stemmed from his anime fight with Buuhan, it certainly didn't seem like you were aware that it was non-canon filler initially. Glad you were aware, though. thumb up

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Fan translation?
Err, Kanzenshuu is the most trustable DB surce you can find worldwide on the internet, and amongst them, Herms is probably the landmark.
When it comes to DB, this is the best source bar none, and DB enthusiasts know that.
English dub is just rubbish in comparison, or, to better say it, it's decent when you want to have fun watching the show with your friends, but it isn't even worthy to be considered when debating or when you want to really know even the smallest detail about AT's work.
But this not because it is the english dub mind you, it's the same with everything that isn't the original japanese source. Yeah, and I've also seen different translations--the original fan-dub, for example, stated Beerus could destroy a "galaxy" when he gets angry, not a "solar system". Point: fans can be wrong in their translations.

And again: I'm not necessarily saying Herms was wrong here... But it's still just a fan's translation in the end. Dunno if I'm quite willing to hold that in higher esteem than the English-dub, given that ALL of the other factoids mentioned in the English-dub are identical to those mentioned in the Jap-release. /shrug

That being said, I'm certainly not opposed to Beerus being a casual solar system buster--just speaking objectively, is all. thumb up

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by BloodRain
So its only said he's a SS buster when pissed, nothing about it being casual at all?

Again, I think it depends on which statements you want to believe.
As I said earlier, I personally have no problem with Cell's statement about having enough power to destroy the SS, which is no bluff, nor hyperbole (also, DBZ characters are masters in sensing Ki, but none of them denied the claim, contrariwise they were actually scared); so, after having Cell at SS level of energy output, we have Beerus who can blow up the SS in an instant: the word "instant", combined with the fact that Beerus is actually thousands/millions of times more powerful than SPC, makes me quite sure about the God of destruction being easily multi SS at his best (which is a level, for now, we haven't even seen yet).

Originally posted by Galan007
Given that your original rationale for base Vegito being above the Z fighters stemmed from his anime fight with Buuhan, it certainly didn't seem like you were aware that it was non-canon filler initially. Glad you were aware, though. thumb up

No problem. thumb up

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, and I've also seen different translations--the original fan-dub, for example, stated Beerus could destroy a "galaxy" when he gets angry, not a "solar system". Point: fans can be wrong in their translations.

That were early rumors which had nothing to do with Kanzenshuu's translation work.
Furthermore, the new released english or american dub has added a new line, according to which Beerus is a galaxy cluster destroyer.
Line never stated in the original work, so, as you can see, official dubs are unreliable compared to the original source.

Originally posted by Galan007
And again: I'm not necessarily saying Herms was wrong here... But it's still just a fan's translation in the end. Dunno if I'm quite willing to hold that in higher esteem than the English-dub, given that ALL of the other factoids mentioned in the English-dub are identical to those mentioned in the Jap-release. /shrug

You seem to like and know quite well DB, so trust me, Kanzenshuu and its variety of offer is the best you can get.
You won't be disappointed. wink

Originally posted by Galan007
That being said, I'm certainly not opposed to Beerus being a casual solar system buster--just speaking objectively, is all. thumb up

Agree with that.

BloodRain

Never understood the Ki sensing argument, and how its to be assumed that the can tell the exact force needed to destroy a solar system without ever seeing it happen, unlike scaling to planetary threats they've already seen.

Not sure about thousands.

Galan007

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
That were early rumors which had nothing to do with Kanzenshuu's translation work. It wasn't just a rumor--it was actually part of the film's subtitles. I posted the screen-cap here, in fact.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Furthermore, the new released english or american dub has added a new line, according to which Beerus is a galaxy cluster destroyer.
Line never stated in the original work, so, as you can see, official dubs are unreliable compared to the original source. When was this stated in the English release? I've watched it a few times now, and it definitely wasn't said in the copy I have.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
You seem to like and know quite well DB, so trust me, Kanzenshuu and its variety of offer is the best you can get.
You won't be disappointed. wink

Heh, I've been a member there for quite a while, and have had multiple convos with Herms. He's always the first to admit that he is by no means the chief authority on Jap-to-English translations--I can post a statement from him to that effect if you'd like.

Again, not saying he's necessarily wrong(I don't speak Jap, so I don't know), but he's also not infallible like you're touting him as. /shrug

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by BloodRain
Never understood the Ki sensing argument, and how its to be assumed that the can tell the exact force needed to destroy a solar system without ever seeing it happen, unlike scaling to planetary threats they've already seen.

Not sure about thousands.

In DB, characters' Ki sensing has always basically been the word of author, especially with statements coming from Piccolo and Kuririn.

Regarding thousands, I assume you mean the gap between Beerus and SPC?
If so, I think there's no way we can escape from that, and this because of the Boo saga being the measurement stick for BoG.
During Boo saga, BP grow exponentially, and something that was the top tier in the Cell saga (Ssj2) becomes the absolute fodder during Boo's time.
Now let's use the official Ssj multipliers (there would be many things to say about them, but that's not the moment nor the place) and follow the Boo saga power chain (with few approximations of course):

- SPC: 1
- Ssj2 Goku (Boo saga): 1 Originally posted by Galan007
When was this stated in the English release? I've watched it a few times now, and it definitely wasn't said in the copy I have.

I wasn't sure which dub was (english or american), but now I've done my researches: it's the Funimation dub.
At min 3:20 there's this line from King Kai: "Beerus the destroyer is the strongest destructive force in the whole universe, it's in his name. He's at a level you didn't even know existed. He's so moody he'll wipe out a cluster of galaxies if someone looks at him funny."

As you know, this line doesn't exist in the orginal source.

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, I've been a member there for quite a while, and have had multiple convos with Herms. He's always the first to admit that he is by no means the chief authority on Jap-to-English translations--I can post a statement from him to that effect if you'd like.
Again, not saying he's necessarily wrong(I don't speak Jap, so I don't know), but he's also not infallible like you're touting him as. /shrug

Fair enough then. thumb up

Galan007

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
I wasn't sure which dub was (english or american), but now I've done my researches: it's the Funimation dub.
At min 3:20 there's this line from King Kai: "Beerus the destroyer is the strongest destructive force in the whole universe, it's in his name. He's at a level you didn't even know existed. He's so moody he'll wipe out a cluster of galaxies if someone looks at him funny." Yep, that's in the FUNimation dub(I just checked.) But just for a reference, King Kai states this at about 6:23.

As for where Beerus stands in relation to SPC, I think I agree with you for the most part.
ie. Beerus>>SSJG Goku>>>>SSJ Vegito>>>>>>>Buuhan>>>Buutenks~/>Mystic Gohan>>>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku(full power)>Kid Buu>Fat Buu>SSJ2 Majin Vegeta~SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan(Cell-era)~SPC.

All of that can be supported with canon material.

BloodRain

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
In DB, characters' Ki sensing has always basically been the word of author, especially with statements coming from Piccolo and Kuririn.

Regarding thousands, I assume you mean the gap between Beerus and SPC?
If so, I think there's no way we can escape from that, and this because of the Boo saga being the measurement stick for BoG.
During Boo saga, BP grow exponentially, and something that was the top tier in the Cell saga (Ssj2) becomes the absolute fodder during Boo's time.
Now let's use the official Ssj multipliers (there would be many things to say about them, but that's not the moment nor the place) and follow the Boo saga power chain (with few approximations of course):

- SPC: 1
- Ssj2 Goku (Boo saga): 1

But that has only been accurately said by people who have measured someone on that level, the level being at the PL 1mil area.

I can't agree with the numbers. Well just one really, concerning Gotenks. When he challenged Fat Buu in base he was completely wrecked. And seeing as Goku, who judged their power beforehand and would roughly know how powerful they'd get post fusion, assumed that their SS1 state would have what it takes to defeat Fat Buu. Knowing this and that S3 Goku was on the level of this Buu, with the possibility of killing him by going all out, we can take away that S1Gotenks is stronger than S3Goku, but not to any large extent. Even Post-ROSAT I'd wager that the difference between S1Gotenks and S3Goku is that of S2Goku and SPC.

That, and I saw a DaiKenz page saying they were equal. Can't find the bloody thing but I know its around there somewhere.

This would make Gotenks and Buu just over 30 times SPC's BP.

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by BloodRain
But that has only been accurately said by people who have measured someone on that level, the level being at the PL 1mil area.

I can't agree with the numbers. Well just one really, concerning Gotenks. When he challenged Fat Buu in base he was completely wrecked. And seeing as Goku, who judged their power beforehand and would roughly know how powerful they'd get post fusion, assumed that their SS1 state would have what it takes to defeat Fat Buu. Knowing this and that S3 Goku was on the level of this Buu, with the possibility of killing him by going all out, we can take away that S1Gotenks is stronger than S3Goku, but not to any large extent. Even Post-ROSAT I'd wager that the difference between S1Gotenks and S3Goku is that of S2Goku and SPC.

That, and I saw a DaiKenz page saying they were equal. Can't find the bloody thing but I know its around there somewhere.

This would make Gotenks and Buu just over 30 times SPC's BP.

I can see your point here, but DB works like that and AT speaks throughout his characters.

Regarding Boo saga gaps: Goku initially said that a Ssj Gotenks would have taken down Fat Boo, so we have

Ssj Gotenks (expected) > Fat Boo

He also said that the kids wouldn't have need a training session in the RoSaT in order to take down Fatty, and told to Boo himself that someone stronger than his Ssj3 form would have shown up, fighting him (actually, Goku says to Piccolo he told Fat Boo this).

Ssj Gotenks (expected) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo

Then Goku returns to heaven, while the kids performs fusion and Gotenks is born; the brat is overconfident, he thinks he can beat Fat Boo in base form, and despite Piccolo telling him he can't win, he faces Boo and gets his ass kicked.
But this isn't a problem, since Goku never said base Gotenks could have won.
Then the kids performs fusion as a Ssj, and this time Ssj Gotenks has the power to win, with nobody questioning it (actually, Piccolo wants to know about his speed, thus Gotenks circles the Earth multiple times).
Anyway, they don't fight Boo (obvious AT's choice, otherwise the saga would have ended there), and Boo becomes Super Boo.
Super Boo emits a burst of his power, and Piccolo wets himself, saying that Gotenks stands no chance: RoSaT is needed ASAP.

Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo

The kids train, and then they face Super Boo in the RoSaT, as Gotenks, in base form, and that's here the whole main point: indeed, Piccolo doesn't know that, now, Gotenks can transform in Ssj after having performed the fusion, but still, he thinks that base Gotenks post can stand a chance against Super Boo.
So:

Base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo

Then the fights starts, and Boo gets more and more serious as they fight, and proves himself to be even stronger than Ssj Gotenks (post).
Finally, he reaches his maximum power when he yells, breaking apart, with his enormous BP, the dimensional wall between the RoSaT and the Earth:

Super Boo (100%) > Super Boo (RoSaT) > Ssj Goteks (post) > Base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo

Then Gotenks turns Ssj3 (and this shocks Goku, lol) and begins to kick Boo's ass:

Ssj3 Gotenks > Super Boo (100%) > Super Boo (RoSaT) > Ssj Goteks (post) > Base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo

And so on, up to Vegetto.
The gap is big, there's no way to escape: just think that Goku wet himself at the thought of fighting Super Boo, and told Vegeta that Gogeta would have been their only hope (at this point it could even be started a discussion about Gogeta being way inferior to Vegetto in power, but that's not the case).

Galan007

The difference between SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu was marginal.

Sj_Sharp

Yes, nothing big, but enough to have Boo clearly outclassed (something along with 1.2 or 1.25 gap, seen that in DBZ a gap of around 1.33 is enough in order to literally blow your opponent up).

Galan007

The difference between SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu was akin to the difference between Perfect Cell and FPSSJ Goku, imo.

...And Piccolo also stated that SSJ3 Gotenks and Buu were 'close to' the same level, so there's that. /shrug

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by Galan007
The difference between SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu was akin to the difference between Perfect Cell and FPSSJ Goku, imo.

...And Piccolo also stated that SSJ3 Gotenks and Buu were 'close to' the same level, so there's that. /shrug

Agreed.
In fact PC had an edge over Goku and could have finished him off, if he wanted (like Gotenks was going to do before defusing).
Still, we don't see Super Boo getting mad or what (like when he sensed Ultimate Gohan), because he knew he could have got his shot as well, not being totally outclassed (and also knew about the time limit of fusion).

Galan007

Gotenks also used those wacky attacks he invented against Buu for the most part, which is primarily how he gained the advantage, imo. That is also, in part, how Buutenks gained the advantage over Mystic Gohan: by using wacky attacks(duped from Gotenks, obviously) that Gohan wasn't prepared for.

Dramatic Gecko

I honestly think he could di it pretty easily. But ending billions of lives in an instant would make anyone pretty hesitant.

Galan007

^ I agree. A 400x difference in power is astronomically massive in the DBZ-verse--insurmountable, in fact.

Take the battle between base Frieza and Nail, for example. Frieza's PL=530k, Nail's PL=42k. ie. Frieza was 12.6x more powerful than Nail. This difference in power rendered Nail unable to so much as scratch Frieza with his attacks, and enabled Frieza to effortlessly shit-stomp Nail in an embarrassing and lulz-worthy manner...With one arm...While holding back:
http://i.imgur.com/tNo0Vw2.gif
http://i.imgur.com/EtTbOeD.gif
http://i.imgur.com/CNBuzuJ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/aiO4ltb.gif
http://i.imgur.com/2ueGtFw.gif
http://i.imgur.com/5MnHMK8.gif
http://i.imgur.com/h2K1pq5.gif
http://i.imgur.com/nw5WRS2.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Ow8PsvV.gif
http://i.imgur.com/speJqbi.gif
http://i.imgur.com/L0ILQTS.gif

And again: that was 'just' a 12.6x power differential.

Heck, SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell is another great example. Gohan casually trounced Cell as though he were a weak feeb, even though he was 'only' about 2x more powerful.

juggerman

I always thought Super Buu>SSJ3 Gotenks because he stated he was waiting for Gohan to appear.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3149-12/dragon-ball/chapter-500.html

He clearly states Gohan was stronger than him, not Gotenks. He says he needed to be the strongest but didn't seem to feel that way about Gotenks.

Then he says he didn't want to absorb them just to lose the power shortly afterwardsans he . This could mean he drew the fight out with them and he wasn't trying to win ie he was holding back.

BloodRain

Good point thumb up

juggerman

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
That's another PoV that's quite diffused among fans.
Personally, I don't have anything against it, even if I actually believe in Ssj3 Gotenks > Super Boo (even if by a small gap).

The only reason i don't see it that way is that Super Buu can sense power levels and we clearly see how he reacts to the idea of someone being stronger than him. SSJ3 Gotenks wasn't holding anything back so there was no reason Buu wouldn't be able to clearly see he was the weaker of the two if that were the case. Hell he's so adept at sensing PL's that he could tell Gohan was his superior from across the galaxy while Goten and Piccolo didn't even notice.

And we know he has no issues pretending to be hurt or angry if needed like here:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3140-8/dragon-ball/chapter-491.html

Part of it is untranslated but you can see what I'm saying.

Galan007

Originally posted by juggerman
I always thought Super Buu>SSJ3 Gotenks because he stated he was waiting for Gohan to appear.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3149-12/dragon-ball/chapter-500.html

He clearly states Gohan was stronger than him, not Gotenks. He says he needed to be the strongest but didn't seem to feel that way about Gotenks.

Then he says he didn't want to absorb them just to lose the power shortly afterwardsans he . This could mean he drew the fight out with them and he wasn't trying to win ie he was holding back. thumb up

Aside from that, Piccolo states: " has never fought someone so CLOSE to his strength before!":
http://i.imgur.com/Npo603e.gif
This implies that SSJ3 Gotenks was nearly as powerful as Buu, but not quite there(ie. if Buu=10, Gotenks=9-9.5.) That's what I was getting at with my previous comment that the difference between them was marginal.

juggerman

Yeah I just noticed that too as I was rereading through. Good catch

BloodRain

@Sj_sharp: Its not about the ir power going it, its how the characters react. Everyone was shock when Freeza only doubles his BP. By the time he overall became 2.3x stronger at his 1% form, people were giving up hope. Just as Vegeta did to Goku's kaio-kens. All were amazed when Gohan doubled up, as they were for SPC. Just as the gang were when feeling Goku's 4x amp.

Then there's this, where Super is meant to be at the very least 400x since last seeing him as Fat. Only based on Piccolo's self admitted incorrect thought.

Galan007

Remember, Goku could have easily beaten Fat Buu had he not been holding back(Goku himself stated as much.) To further solidify this is the fact that SSJ3 Goku could have also beaten Kid Buu(who was > Fat Buu, per Supreme Kai) "in an instant" had he been able to reach full power--which he wasn't able to do because he'd already used a lot of energy phucking around with Kid Buu(and because the plot deemed it so, of course.) Anywho, this means Kid Buu would have been absolutely nothing in comparison to FPSSJ3 Goku... Which subsequently means that Fat Buu likely wouldn't have even registered on Goku's radar.
ie. FPSSJ3 Goku>>>>Kid Buu>Fat Buu.

And since some of the aforementioned characters have been used as measuring sticks for Gotenks' power here, the above info throws quite a wrench in the gears. Of course, it is still all secondary to Piccolo's statement regarding Gotenks' power/potential(as BloodRain has mentioned.)

All of that being said: Super Buu was decisively more powerful than Fat Buu, but there was not a 400x power differential between them--especially when we consider what a 'mere' 2x power boost did for Gohan against Perfect Cell. Despite that, I am to believe the difference between Super and Fat Buu was hundredS of timeS greater than the difference between Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan? Sorry, but I can't follow that logic. /shrug

Werewolf582

Superman prime can't be hurt if he indeed survived a Universal blast.

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by BloodRain
@Sj_sharp: Its not about the ir power going it, its how the characters react. Everyone was shock when Freeza only doubles his BP. By the time he overall became 2.3x stronger at his 1% form, people were giving up hope. Just as Vegeta did to Goku's kaio-kens. All were amazed when Gohan doubled up, as they were for SPC. Just as the gang were when feeling Goku's 4x amp.

Then there's this, where Super is meant to be at the very least 400x since last seeing him as Fat. Only based on Piccolo's self admitted incorrect thought.

Everyone can have the gap they want between the Boo saga characters, as far as I'm concerned (indeed, for example, we know that AT intendend later on the Ssj multiplier to be only 10x, so this shrinks the gap a lot); what I can't see be changed is the power chain.

If I can ask, on which base Piccolo's comment has been incorrect?

Originally posted by Galan007
Remember, Goku could have easily beaten Fat Buu had he not been holding back(Goku himself stated as much.) To further solidify this is the fact that SSJ3 Goku could have also beaten Kid Buu(who was > Fat Buu, per Supreme Kai) "in an instant" had he been able to reach full power--which he wasn't able to do because he'd already used a lot of energy phucking around with Kid Buu(and because the plot deemed it so, of course.) Anywho, this means Kid Buu would have been absolutely nothing in comparison to FPSSJ3 Goku... Which subsequently means that Fat Buu likely wouldn't have even registered on Goku's radar.
ie. FPSSJ3 Goku>>>>Kid Buu>Fat Buu.

And since some of the aforementioned characters have been used as measuring sticks for Gotenks' power here, the above info throws quite a wrench in the gears. Of course, it is still all secondary to Piccolo's statement regarding Gotenks' power/potential(as BloodRain has mentioned.)

All of that being said: Super Buu was decisively more powerful than Fat Buu, but there was not a 400x power differential between them--especially when we consider what a 'mere' 2x power boost did for Gohan against Perfect Cell. Despite that, I am to believe the difference between Super and Fat Buu was hundredS of timeS greater than the difference between Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan? Sorry, but I can't follow that logic. /shrug

Ssj3 Goku being >>>> Kid Boo is just an assumption: Goku couldn't finish him off because he wasn't able to sustain the Ssj3 with a living body, but at the beginning of the fight he was at full power (albeit for a short time), still his gap over Boo was anything but big.
Then, while Vegeta was distracting Boo, Goku tried to charge up his Ssj3 form in order to finish Boo (and theoretically he could have done this, no doubt, Vegeta tells us and Goku confirms it), but the effect actually was reverse on his live body.
So yes, in short, Ssj3 Goku had a power advantage over Kid Boo, but there's nothing implying he could have remotely had loads of extra power up his sleeve which could justify a ">>>>" gap over Boo.

Despite the actual number you want to put in for the gap, to me it's quite obvious that the margin Super Boo has over Fat Boo should be >>>> the gap between Ssj2 Gohan and Perfect Cell: indeed, Gohan and Cell are characters placed in the same ballpark in power, like Ssj Goku and final form Freeza or Super Vegeta and semi-Cell (given the respective gaps of course); contrariwise, Super Boo is a fusion tier character, while Fat Boo clearly isn't. I mean, it took a Ssj3 fusion in order to compete with Super Boo, while the Ssj kids were very close to Ssj adults in power; Goku also said that mighty Gogeta was needed against Super Boo, and in order to beat a character who isn't even 3 times stronger than him (Boohan), holy Vegetto had to be formed (i.e. a Potara fusion which outclasses by far, in power, even the fusion dance itself).
It's not Goku's or Fat Boo's or Kid Boo's fault if they are ants if compared to Super Boo (irrespective of actual BP numbers), indeed they are the top dogs of non-fused characters (only Ultimate Gohan is the exception, which speaks volume of how freakin' powerful Gohan was), but fusion tier guys are another story.
Hell, we are even told that Gogeta couldn't have got the job done against Boohan (we are told this by Boohan and Goku himself)... The gap is huge.

Galan007

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Ssj3 Goku being >>>> Kid Boo is just an assumption: Goku couldn't finish him off because he wasn't able to sustain the Ssj3 with a living body, but at the beginning of the fight he was at full power (albeit for a short time), still his gap over Boo was anything but big. SSJ3 Goku was never at full power against Kid Buu. Why? Because he needed a minute to fully power up, and Buu never gave him that much time. Goku explicitly states this after Vegeta comments that he could destroy Buu "in an instant" at full power:
http://i.imgur.com/5mCHNcP.gif
The only reason Vegeta engaged Buu at all was to try and give Goku the minute he needed to power up--but by then his stamina was already taxed, rendering him unable to achieve max power.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Then, while Vegeta was distracting Boo, Goku tried to charge up his Ssj3 form in order to finish Boo (and theoretically he could have done this, no doubt, Vegeta tells us and Goku confirms it), but the effect actually was reverse on his live body. Had SSJ3 Goku not had an extended battle with Kid Buu before attempting to power up, he almost certainly could have reached full power. But like I said above: by the time Vegeta entered the fray to try and buy Goku time, his stamina was already taxed.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
So yes, in short, Ssj3 Goku had a power advantage over Kid Boo, but there's nothing implying he could have remotely had loads of extra power up his sleeve which could justify a ">>>>" gap over Boo. 'Character A' defeating 'Character B' "in an instant", implies that he can do so casually/easily/effortlessly--with a single attack, perhaps. So yeah, I'd say that definitely justifies a ">>>>" power differential... But that's neither here nor there.

The point is that FPSSJ3 Goku was far more powerful than Kid Buu--thus Fat Buu(who, again, was < Kid Buu) would have been fodder in comparison to him.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Despite the actual number you want to put in for the gap, to me it's quite obvious that the margin Super Boo has over Fat Boo should be >>>> the gap between Ssj2 Gohan and Perfect Cell If that's what you think, then so be it. However, the gap between Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan was less than 2x, yet that was still sufficient for Gohan to utterly TOY with Cell as though he were a weak feeb.

Given that, there's no way Super Buu was 400x> Fat Buu. That multiplier is WAAAAY too high.

BloodRain

From Piccolo on the following page saying that Gotenks probably doesn't stand a chance, after witnessing all of his attempts embarrassingly fail.

carver9

This.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Superman prime can't be hurt if he indeed survived a Universal blast. You're a fookin' crook.

Tzeentch

is this what rape feels like?

StealthRanger

People are actually debating this? :lmao

carver9

Yes because Superman Prime isn't indestructible and can be hurt and dropped.

NemeBro

He survived the destruction of a universe.

No DBZ character can claim that.

He has moved planets like they're marbles and destroyed them physically.

No DBZ character can claim that.

Superman Prime fought with someone who wielded the power of the Big Bang and ultimately won.

No DBZ character can claim that.

Galan007

Prime also flew through pure Anti-Matter energy(a destructive force in DC that can atomize entire universes) with a smile on his face.

He also tanks attacks from Green Lanterns, like they're throwing snowballs at him.

Time Immemorial

Prime murder stomps!!!

StealthRanger

Originally posted by carver9
Yes because Superman Prime isn't indestructible and can be hurt and dropped.

Nobody said he was indestructible, though DBZ doesn't come close to pushing his limits

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro

He has moved planets like they're marbles and destroyed them physically.

No DBZ character can claim that.

For one this is far more impressive

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114806/3776566-5675217880-iYoUB.gif

And Android 18 broke Vegeta's arm with a kick. Vegeta had large planet durability then.

Striking feats > Lifting and pushing feats

IMHO

carver9

Originally posted by Galan007
Prime also flew through pure Anti-Matter energy(a destructive force in DC that can atomize entire universes) with a smile on his face.

He also tanks attacks from Green Lanterns, like they're throwing snowballs at him.

Like throwing snowballs at him huh?

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc260/Superman-Prime_Respect/toomuchforgls3.jpg

"Nnnnnghhhh"

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc260/Superman-Prime_Respect/toomuchforgls4.jpg

"Aaaaarrrrrr"

Antimatter is a good ft though.

carver9

Originally posted by NemeBro
He survived the destruction of a universe.

No DBZ character can claim that.

He has moved planets like they're marbles and destroyed them physically.

No DBZ character can claim that.

Superman Prime fought with someone who wielded the power of the Big Bang and ultimately won.

No DBZ character can claim that.

He did survive. I agree with that.

What DBZ has tried to do that? Darkseid never moved a mountain, doesn't mean he can't do it.

He did fight against Monarch who temp koed him with a Nuke like blast.

Time Immemorial

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
DBZ character lose their shit if a planet is going to explode.

Because its their home planet.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Because its their home planet.

Lol and the Z fighters on Namek?

Jmanghan

Superman Prime, or Superman Prime One-Million?

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
For one this is far more impressive

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114806/3776566-5675217880-iYoUB.gif

And Android 18 broke Vegeta's arm with a kick. Vegeta had large planet durability then.

Striking feats > Lifting and pushing feats

IMHO Those planetoids are each smaller than the city block my house resides in.

Even if you assume that the Z fighter's resistance to blunt force damage and ki damage are equal (You'd have to be ignoring quite a bit of evidence to make this assumption), then Superman Prime would still be much stronger by feats. Also much faster by feats.

NemeBro

Originally posted by carver9
He did survive. I agree with that.

What DBZ has tried to do that? Darkseid never moved a mountain, doesn't mean he can't do it.

He did fight against Monarch who temp koed him with a Nuke like blast. Good.

Only Darkseid is physically stronger than characters in his setting who have moved mountains. No DBZ character has physically moved a planet, or anything close to it.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p07.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p17.jpg

Show me where it is indicated that he was KO'd, even temporarily.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Those planetoids are each smaller than the city block my house resides in.

Even if you assume that the Z fighter's resistance to blunt force damage and ki damage are equal (You'd have to be ignoring quite a bit of evidence to make this assumption), then Superman Prime would still be much stronger by feats. Also much faster by feats.

Care to back that up?

Ki is technically bunt damage.

I already said supes won.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Good.

No DBZ character has physically moved a planet, or anything close to it.

Striking feats > pushing and lifting feats.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Care to back that up?

Ki is technically bunt damage.

I already said supes won. For one thing, we can actually see Bills' size relative to the planets as a blur.

For another, later in the scene we see that tree is not, in fact, the size of a planet.

Well, no it isn't though, lol.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Striking feats > pushing and lifting feats. Based on?

ScreamPaste

You'd have to provide evidence the planetoids are even close to the size of actual planets or moons before Nemebro would be obligated to point out that Bills is visible next to those planetoids, and some of them are in the foreground and still smaller than the floating island he was on, in order to debunk your claim.

Edit: Sniped.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Lol and the Z fighters on Namek? No on had durability 11x Earth except SSJ1 Goku and Frieza.

Air is also a great resource.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Based on? If you could bench 200 pounds that automatically means you can destroy those weights?

Have fun breaking your hand.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Werewolf582
If you could bench 200 pounds that automatically means you can destroy those weights?

Have fun breaking your hand. Those weights are probably made of steel and it takes more than 200lbs of force to break 200lbs of steel. Your comparison is flawed.

Once you get into ranges where there's so much mass steel cannot support its own weight and would form into a sphere-ish shape under its own gravity, ala, say, the size of a planet, what then?

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
For one thing, we can actually see Bills' size relative to the planets as a blur.

For another, later in the scene we see that tree is not, in fact, the size of a planet.

Well, no it isn't though, lol.

We see a lot of comic characters next to planets and they aren't as small as they should be.

Some attacks are.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Those weights are probably made of steel and it takes more than 200lbs of force to break 200lbs of steel. Your comparison is flawed.

Once you get into ranges where there's so much mass steel cannot support its own weight and would form into a sphere-ish shape under its own gravity, ala, say, the size of a planet, what then?

Therefore just because you can lift it doesn't mean you can destroy it. Not even a 5 pound plate.

Da Phuck?

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Therefore just because you can lift it doesn't mean you can destroy it. Not even a 5 pound plate.

Da Phuck? Therefore, your example is terrible because not everything works the same way at every scale.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Therefore, your example is terrible because not everything works the same way at every scale.

Textbooks.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Textbooks.
Are a great example.

A single textbook has incredible tensile strength, and it is very hard to rip apart, despite being very light.

Now, if you have a textbook made of the same material, floating through space, but with a mass measurable in thousands of tons which has volume to match, someone strong enough to manipulate that book could easily pull apart its binding because the material simply doesn't have the tensile strength to support its own structure in the same way as a smaller version would.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
If you could bench 200 pounds that automatically means you can destroy those weights?

Have fun breaking your hand. No, but I could sure as **** break a two hundred pound sand castle in half. If it has a solid bottom (if it's in a big bucket) I could lift it too.

It requires more energy to move a planet any decent distance (Prime moved so many planets such great distances the center of the universe was changed) than it takes to destroy a planet.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
We see a lot of comic characters next to planets and they aren't as small as they should be.

Some attacks are. Sure, but there's actual evidence those planets are, in fact, planets.

All evidence points toward them being small.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Are a great example.

A single textbook has incredible tensile strength, and it is very hard to rip apart, despite being very light.

Now, if you have a textbook made of the same material, floating through space, but with a mass measurable in thousands of tons which has volume to match, someone strong enough to manipulate that book could easily pull apart its binding because the material simply doesn't have the tensile strength to support its own structure in the same way as a smaller version would.

Space cheese.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Space cheese. What?

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What?

Space cheese is a term pretty much saying its a feat in space.

On the moon I could lift a large ass boulder like its nothing, however, I couldn't do that on our planet itself.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Space cheese is a term pretty much saying its a feat in space.

On the moon I could lift a large ass boulder like its nothing, however, I couldn't do that on our planet itself. My example isn't space cheese, though. Those rules hold up on Earth, it was floating in space for comedic value.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by NemeBro
Good.

Only Darkseid is physically stronger than characters in his setting who have moved mountains. No DBZ character has physically moved a planet, or anything close to it.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p07.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p17.jpg

Show me where it is indicated that he was KO'd, even temporarily.

KO Carver. laughing

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Kang%20the%20Conqueror/StrongestK.gif

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
You think all you have to do to move Earth out of the solar system is lift the Earth's weight?

Hell no. You have to overpower the very orbit that has been moving that planet for billions of years and then move it someplace else.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-would-it-take-to-move-earth.63459/

According to this, the energy required to move Earth to Mars is about five times greater than the energy required to destroy a planet.

I'm sure if Superboy Prime improved his technique he would indeed punch even harder.

But he can still punch hard enough to take out high heralds who can withstand being crushed between two planets, and core strength for a strong punch is still strength.

Keep in mind though that Superboy Prime (And the Z fighters for that matter) aren't bound by the same physical limitations we humans are. They can fly. They take the ground factor out of the equation entirely, and essentially turn themselves into man-sized bullets. Prime is just a much faster, stronger bullet.

Depends on the size of the planet where talking about.

I'm not saying Superboy can't hard, I'm saying lifting something doesn't automatically mean you can destroy it.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Depends on the size of the planet where talking about.

I'm not saying Superboy can't hard, I'm saying lifting something doesn't automatically mean you can destroy it. But if lifting and moving something takes enough force to destroy that thing, you can. smile

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
But if lifting and moving something takes enough force to destroy that thing, you can. smile

Not really. I can push a tractor tire but I'm not destroying it. In fact I can push a regular tire and I still couldn't destroy it.

ScreamPaste

Lifting or moving a tractor tire doesn't take enough force to destroy it, so again, your example fails.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Lifting or moving a tractor tire doesn't take enough force to destroy it Exactly.

So just because you can lift or push something, that doesn't mean you can destroy it. Happy Dance

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
But if lifting and moving something takes enough force to destroy that thing, you can. smile

Galan007

Originally posted by carver9
Like throwing snowballs at him huh?

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc260/Superman-Prime_Respect/toomuchforgls3.jpg

"Nnnnnghhhh"

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc260/Superman-Prime_Respect/toomuchforgls4.jpg

"Aaaaarrrrrr"

Antimatter is a good ft though. I like how you post scans of Prime utterly shit-stomping some of the most powerful Green Lanterns DC has ever produced, and try to twisting them into poor showings for Prime. Lol.

Also, you realize that GL auto-shields have tanked black holes under Johns' pen, right? Well, Prime(also under Johns' pen) shredded through said shielding like paper mache in those scans.

Yep, Prime is uber, indeed. thumb up

Time Immemorial

Carver shifting the goal posts again

http://premierskills.britishcouncil.org/en/sites/premierskills/files/imagecache/widescreenpromoblock/images/QPR%20moving%20the%20goalposts.png

carver9

Originally posted by Galan007
I like how you post scans of Prime utterly shit-stomping some of the most powerful Green Lanterns DC has ever produced, and try to twisting them into poor showings for Prime. Lol.

Also, you realize that GL auto-shields have tanked black holes under Johns' pen, right? Well, Prime(also under Johns' pen) shredded through said shielding like paper mache in those scans.

Yep, Prime is uber, indeed. thumb up

Never said he couldn't beat them, but what I posted was proof that they can damage him and as shown, they did.

Prime is indeed uber.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Unless your destroying that thing by pushing or lifting it I don't see how that logic works.

Werewolf582

@Carver

Do you honestly see the DBZverse winning?

SuperBOY prime was taking on the Teen Titans, Doom Patrol, AND the JLA, killed several of their members and even admitted to nightwing that he wasn't even trying in that fight.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111160573/3949308-6218299697-RealV.jpg

Lek Kuen

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Unless your destroying that thing by pushing or lifting it I don't see how that logic works.

He's saying that it depends on the object in question. Some things takes less force to destroy than lift and some the opposite. Like your weights example vs Nemebros sand castle

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
He's saying that it depends on the object in question. Some things takes less force to destroy than lift and some the opposite. Like your weights example vs Nemebros sand castle

A planet isn't sand and it isn't made of weights.

It's 70% water wink

Lek Kuen

Originally posted by Werewolf582
A planet isn't sand and it isn't made of weights.

It's 70% water wink

Above the core is Earth's mantle, which is made up of rock containing silicon, iron, magnesium, aluminum and other minerals. The rocky surface layer of Earth, called the crust, is made up of mostly silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, sodium, potassium and magnesium.

I never said it was, just that the whole lift vs destroy isn't something is always one way or the other. Especially with massive things where you are displacing an orbit

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I never said it was, just that the whole lift vs destroy isn't something is always one way or the other. Especially with massive things where you are displacing an orbit

I just take striking feats over lifting and pushing feats because they are more impressive.

Say you could lift 500 pounds, that doesn't mean you can strike with a force that high. Money Mayweather can hit a lot harder than people who can lift more than him.

Time Immemorial

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Isn't this about Superman Prime, not Superboy Prime though?

Superman Prime > Superboy prime

I was pointing out that even superboy prime has a ton a top tier feats, and Superman Prime is above him.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Superman Prime > Superboy prime

I was pointing out that even superboy prime has a ton a top tier feats, and Superman Prime is above him.

Cool.

Stoic

Has anyone realized how stupid DBZ characters actually are? i don't expect Prime will give them time to form a spirit bomb, or reach into their little pouch to fetch their little beans either. I don't understand how Goku actually ever wins any of his matches TBH.

Time Immemorial

He wins by PIS and CIS.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
I just take striking feats over lifting and pushing feats because they are more impressive.

Say you could lift 500 pounds, that doesn't mean you can strike with a force that high. Money Mayweather can hit a lot harder than people who can lift more than him. Why?

Mayweather can punch harder than people who can lift more, but those people can still lift more despite being able to punch harder.

Also, George Foreman could lift more than Mayweather. He punched much harder too. thumb up

Sacred 117

Yeah. F**k Mayweather. thumb up

Galan007

Mayweather>Foreman.

Suck on that for a while, you plebs. thumb up

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why?

Mayweather can punch harder than people who can lift more, but those people can still lift more despite being able to punch harder.

Also, George Foreman could lift more than Mayweather. He punched much harder too. thumb up

Because it shows their actual striking strength. If we didn't take them into consideration DBZ characters would be weak as **** cause their lifting and pushing feats are shit.

Indeed, Mayweather can punch harder than a lot of people that can lift more than him. Mike Tyson and chuck Norris are also good examples.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkPjSQwENqoP1NHOCZS8CWE3hwyfWCVSv-0FCFAHMEEqISXHNwTg

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Yeah. F**k Mayweather. thumb up

http://www.shiftybloke.net/gallery/Funny/gtfo%20my%20internets.jpg

http://makeameme.org/media/created/floyd-mayweather-.jpg

Werewolf582

Originally posted by Galan007
Mayweather>Foreman.

Suck on that for a while, you plebs. thumb up

http://makeameme.org/media/created/floyd-mayweather-.jpg

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Because it shows their actual striking strength. If we didn't take them into consideration DBZ characters would be weak as **** cause their lifting and pushing feats are shit.

Indeed, Mayweather can punch harder than a lot of people that can lift more than him. Mike Tyson and chuck Norris are also good examples.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkPjSQwENqoP1NHOCZS8CWE3hwyfWCVSv-0FCFAHMEEqISXHNwTg Kayfabe.

In an actual fight Big Show would have literally killed Mayweather. Be real. Even in a boxing match, with its rules, the fact that Big Show punches much harder (Yes, the fact) and has a reach about twice Mayweather's and is so tall Floyd wouldn't be able to actually hit him in the face puts Show at a distinct advantage. thumb up

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kayfabe.

In an actual fight Big Show would have literally killed Mayweather. Be real. Even in a boxing match, with its rules, the fact that Big Show punches much harder (Yes, the fact) and has a reach about twice Mayweather's and is so tall Floyd wouldn't be able to actually hit him in the face puts Show at a distinct advantage. thumb up

Also, they are relatively weak as shit.

Their punching strength means nothing if a character in Superman's strength tier begins grappling with them. Then they're going to be manhandled and bent over.

Striking strength is good to have. So is lifting strength.

DBZ characters possess the latter.

Most comic herald characters have both.

This puts DBZ characters at the disadvantage in combat.

Don't know what that means.

It was a joke......

In lifting strength not in punching strength.

That's if they start grappling, a lot of characters just don't start grabbing in a fight.

But have amazing Striking strength.

Technically some metas and low and mid heralds have lifting feats that poop on new 52 darksieds.

It indeed does if it is grappling contest, in a fight that involves striking, not so much.

carver9

Originally posted by Werewolf582
@Carver

Do you honestly see the DBZverse winning?

SuperBOY prime was taking on the Teen Titans, Doom Patrol, AND the JLA, killed several of their members and even admitted to nightwing that he wasn't even trying in that fight.

Goku powering up would take out a chunk of that team. A casual attack from Goku would take out that team. Hell, Nappa lifting his hand in the air would outright destroy that team. Don't get your point. This would kill them.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BrUiOmY0RLs

When did he fight the entirety of the JLA and won? Who did he kill on the JLA?

Galan007

Superman himself agreed that he was unable to stop Prime alone:
http://i.imgur.com/3yEQQu5.jpg
ie. Prime>Superman, overall.

Aside from that, we also know that even when Prime is extremely weakened, his HV is still capable of passing right through Superman, like a hot knife through butter:
http://i.imgur.com/1tb3RQ8.jpg
ie. Prime's WEAKENED HV>>>Superman-level durability.

Aside from that, we know Prime is powerful enough to shred through entire TEAMS of DC's upper-echelon heroes... Even when he's not at 100% power:
http://i.imgur.com/KzoSzH4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M0wtop7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NxnRtrA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ihh3gnv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sIhunDo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pxZEM4z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N2NL3ET.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MCPChFb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VNi0U8w.jpg
(Those scenes are just the tip of the iceberg, mind you.)

Aside from that, we also know Prime is fast enough to counter high-level speedsters when need be:
http://i.imgur.com/j5p1hig.jpg

And even outrace several confirmed FTL++ characters:
http://i.imgur.com/QcbiRHQ.jpg
"There's NO WAY we'll catch him", says JOHN STEWART to SUPERMAN, POWER GIRL, HAL, KAL, and J'ONN.

Aside from that, we also know Prime is durable enough to tank universe-busting detonations at ground zero:
http://i.imgur.com/BXmtZ0x.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qcx8Cy3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yWygHlI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/F2nSSrU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kY1X5Lr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YbhuRmn.jpg

As well as pure anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/C4v00Wz.jpg

So yeah, I see no possible way for the DBZ-verse to win in a PIS-less scenario. Tbh, I don't even know how they could contend with Prime's HV alone... Never mind his VASTLY superior strength, speed, and durability. /shrug

#PowerOfChristCompelsYou

NemeBro

Galan, everyone in this thread knows all of that. Some people just refuse to acknowledge those high showings because they prove DBZ has no chance.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Don't know what that means.

It was a joke......

In lifting strength not in punching strength.

That's if they start grappling, a lot of characters just don't start grabbing in a fight.

But have amazing Striking strength.

Technically some metas and low and mid heralds have lifting feats that poop on new 52 darksieds.

It indeed does if it is grappling contest, in a fight that involves striking, not so much. Only a lot of heralds and up have grappled in combat.

Prime grabbed Monarch in a fight and overpowered him. Monarch was able to escape because he too has incredible physical strength, but any DBZ character would be ****ed.

Galan007

Oh, I know. I just wanted everything cataloged in one post for ease of access. smile

NemeBro

Superman on average is less durable than black-haired Goku at the start of Z Galan. Don't ya know?

Galan007

It's simple math, evidently.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Galan, everyone in this thread knows all of that. Some people just refuse to acknowledge those high showings because they prove DBZ has no chance.

Only a lot of heralds and up have grappled in combat.

Prime grabbed Monarch in a fight and overpowered him. Monarch was able to escape because he too has incredible physical strength, but any DBZ character would be ****ed.

DBZ doesn't stand a chance, I don't know why Carver saids they do.

TBH a lot don't.

Prime isn't a herald. Any DBZ character would have been phucked.

Werewolf582

Originally posted by NemeBro
Superman on average is less durable than black-haired Goku at the start of Z Galan. Don't ya know? I hate when comic writers make superman look like a *****.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Werewolf582
DBZ doesn't stand a chance, I don't know why Carver saids they do.

TBH a lot don't.

Prime isn't a herald. Any DBZ character would have been phucked.

I said "and up".

Superboy actually grappled Superboy Prime and rammed him through Alexander Luthor Jr's cosmic Earth-making machine thing.

He also died in the effort and Superboy Prime was unharmed, but he gets points for trying.

Similarly, the two Supermen in Infinite Crisis grappling with Superboy Prime to force him through a red star, to depower him.

carver9

DBZ verse strength is underrated...especially their power output but whatever.

Jmanghan

Originally posted by carver9
DBZ verse strength is underrated...especially their power output but whatever. No, it's not, I actually think that a Beerus and Whis combination would do pretty good. I think, this is the only way they have a chance. Whis and Beerus do the timed fusion, while Vegeta and Goku do the timed fusion. Then, after Whis and Beerus are combined, and Goku and Vegeta are combined, Gogeta and Beerish, do a fusion with the potara earrings, making it Gogeeris, which would... stand, some chance against things.

carver9

Let's put it like this, General Tao is stronger and more durable than Colossus and Thing and Goku by the time Z hit had enough physical strength to probably thump General Tao and either kill him or disintegrate him.

StealthRanger

>Tao
>stronger than Thing or Colossus

Go troll somewehre else plz

carver9

Originally posted by StealthRanger
>Tao
>stronger than Thing or Colossus

Go troll somewehre else plz

He threw a pillar across the freaking planet with ease. Yes, he is stronger than Colossus and Thing.

NemeBro

How strong do you think you have to be to do that?

I've seen Colossus tear down skyscrapers with the shockwaves of his blows while fighting Gladiator (He held his own for a while too, so that's a good feat).

That's a far better feat than tossing a relatively light pillar (Yes, a ton is relatively light in this case) a thousand kilometers.

The Thing has done silly shit like spin his arms so fast it made a whirlpool that Namor got sucked in, hasn't he?

That's a better feat than Tao's.

Galan007

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that pillar-throwing is even being mentioned in a thread where the opponent in question can casually move planets across the universe, like they're ping pong balls..?

juggerman

Originally posted by Galan007
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that pillar-throwing is even being mentioned in a thread where the opponent in question can casually move planets across the universe, like they're ping pong balls..?

But can he throw a planet and ride on it Galan? CAN HE??!!??!!

StealthRanger

Thing and Iron Man by grappling too hard destroyed a mountain I believe, Colossus>Thing

ScreamPaste

Colossus brought one down by beating up Spider-Man once, IIRC.

carver9

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Thing and Iron Man by grappling too hard destroyed a mountain I believe, Colossus>Thing

Never happened.

@Screampaste...

Colossus was amped by the Phoenix Force when that happened. A universal entity.

Tao is stronger than both.

Time Immemorial

NemeBro

Originally posted by carver9
Never happened.

@Screampaste...

Colossus was amped by the Phoenix Force when that happened. A universal entity.

Tao is stronger than both. You can't prove that though.

StealthRanger

Iron Man and Thing's fight destroys a mountain

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=mwvbd5&s=5#.VEwk9_mUfsE

Thing overpowering a press capable of going right throught the planet (you'd be looking teratons of power to say the least, compare to Tao's feat which was calced to be about a ton of TNT)

http://www.seanbaby.com/hostess/images/thing3.jpg

inb4 "I don't like it so it didn't happen"

NemeBro

I'm actually pretty sure the second one isn't canon.

Galan007

Yeah, I don't think those old Hostess ads are canon.

If they are, then Twinkies>Cosmic Cubes:
http://i.imgur.com/RYboipj.jpg

Werewolf582

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Thing and Iron Man by grappling too hard destroyed a mountain I believe, Colossus>Thing

Thing is above colossus.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Galan007
Superman himself agreed that he was unable to stop Prime alone:
http://i.imgur.com/3yEQQu5.jpg
ie. Prime>Superman, overall.

Aside from that, we also know that even when Prime is extremely weakened, his HV is still capable of passing right through Superman, like a hot knife through butter:
http://i.imgur.com/1tb3RQ8.jpg
ie. Prime's WEAKENED HV>>>Superman-level durability.

Aside from that, we know Prime is powerful enough to shred through entire TEAMS of DC's upper-echelon heroes... Even when he's not at 100% power:
http://i.imgur.com/KzoSzH4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M0wtop7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NxnRtrA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ihh3gnv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sIhunDo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pxZEM4z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N2NL3ET.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MCPChFb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VNi0U8w.jpg
(Those scenes are just the tip of the iceberg, mind you.)

Aside from that, we also know Prime is fast enough to counter high-level speedsters when need be:
http://i.imgur.com/j5p1hig.jpg

And even outrace several confirmed FTL++ characters:
http://i.imgur.com/QcbiRHQ.jpg
"There's NO WAY we'll catch him", says JOHN STEWART to SUPERMAN, POWER GIRL, HAL, KAL, and J'ONN.

Aside from that, we also know Prime is durable enough to tank universe-busting detonations at ground zero:
http://i.imgur.com/BXmtZ0x.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qcx8Cy3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yWygHlI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/F2nSSrU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kY1X5Lr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YbhuRmn.jpg

As well as pure anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/C4v00Wz.jpg

So yeah, I see no possible way for the DBZ-verse to win in a PIS-less scenario. Tbh, I don't even know how they could contend with Prime's HV alone... Never mind his VASTLY superior strength, speed, and durability. /shrug

#PowerOfChristCompelsYou

Good post.