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Force sabers all out

Neutral ground

I mean, Traya is pretty beastly...

Traya

Originally posted by Selenial
Traya

Originally posted by Selenial
Traya

If Traya can't giga-drain, Dooku. Otherwise, Traya.

Traya liek rag-dolled 3 Jedi Masters and then drained them all. She's pretty beastly.

I may go Dooku too.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Traya liek rag-dolled 3 Jedi Masters and then drained them all. She's pretty beastly.

Yeah but if Dooku can tank her Force attacks and get in close she's boned.

O wait eye forgot Dooku does know how to counter Drain and on the scale of the Dark Reaper, which absorbs armies. Yeh actually eye change mai vote 2 Dooku.

Dooku wins because Traya lost to the Exile, who at Dooku's level at best. Even if Traya's more powerful, she wasn't the superior duelist.

Dooku stomps, he knows how to counter the Dark Reaper, Traya is child's play compared to it. So yeah...I don't see how Traya is taking this.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dooku wins because Traya lost to the Exile, who at Dooku's level at best. Even if Traya's more powerful, she wasn't the superior duelist.

Wait... What? You Put Meetra Surik at Dooku level? I'm not sure if you're serious or trollinghttp://r28.imgfast.net/users/2811/36/97/52/smiles/3206601001.gif

Anyway, Yeah I won't bring up Giga-Drain as Traya is already impressive without it, Her TK is potent and she knows a variety of force powers(including force storm) and knows all of the lightsabers/force forms. That said, Dooku has more impressive Showings with TK and is a much better Duelist.

The Count takes lightsabers, Traya takes Force Powers and All-Out goes to Dooku imho.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Wait... What? You Put Meetra Surik at Dooku level? I'm not sure if you're serious
I said at best. And in KotOR II, I find the Exile Dooku-tier. Didn't say the name Meetra Surik once. Unless you want to gimp Traya too, then Dooku lolstomps and calls it a day.

Dooku takes all three.

Yeah, Dooku.

Traya, because giga-drain is absolutely not the only Force Power she has by any margin, contrary to seemingly popular belief.

Traya in all but sabers

Dooku. Quite simply he has better feats and he should be able to defend against drain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Traya, because giga-drain is absolutely not the only Force Power she has by any margin, contrary to seemingly popular belief.
Having more Force powers doesn't mean you'll defeat anyone. If Traya can't stand up to the Exile, she can't defeat Dooku.

Dooku did not get ragdolled by Yoda. Why should there even be such possibility that Traya would?

We must however take note that the Exile was the person Traya was relying on entirely, I am not saying Traya held back but I don't think she was being as focused as she could have been, the dialogue of the fight makes it seem like she was teaching yet another lesson.

Her stealth and mind abilities however could prove lethal against Dooku.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku did not get ragdolled by Yoda. Why should there even be such possibility that Traya would?

Who said anything about Traya ragdolling him?

Though Yoda never actually tried to attack Dooku with the Force. Sidious, Yoda's equal, was able to choke him from across the galaxy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who said anything about Traya ragdolling him?

Though Yoda never actually tried to attack Dooku with the Force. Sidious, Yoda's equal, was able to choke him from across the galaxy.
No one said but people somehow give the edge in Force to her, which is ridiculous. Sidious caught Dooku off guard. Yoda has no problem with overpowering his opponents with TK, if he can, as demonstrated on Ventress, hence, wouldn't work on Dooku.

Dooku: "It is obvious that this contest couldn't be decided by our knowledge of the Force but by our skills with a lightsaber".
Yoda did not disagree.

You don't have to ragdoll someone to win via the Force.

Yoda just doesn't like going at someone with the Force. He's obviously more powerful than Dooku and could in fact kick his ass with TK. I don't see why Sidious, the guy who radolled Maul and Savage at the same time, needs to catch Dooku off guard to pwn him.

Yes, because it is easier to engage in lightsaber combat, while you can barely walk.
Nah, I don't buy it that Yoda "could". Example with brothers is irrelevant, Sidious even turned away to make the attack less expected. If there is an opportunity to successfully Force blast someone, Yoda has no qualms of doing it as he demonstrated on Sidious on two occasions.

You know the quote I'm going to post contradicting that already, so is there even a point?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You know the quote I'm going to post contradicting that already, so is there even a point?
Honestly can't remember. Which one?

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

Yeah, I always took it to mean that, too. He wasn't hurling anything back at Dooku, other than the one burst of lightning. When he says it's clear the contest cannot be decided by their knowledge of the force, I thought he meant because it's clear Yoda is just defending everything he throws and not trying to do shit back, so he engages him in sabers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
Yeah, that's why Yoda Force hurls himself at Dooku with raging *wrawrr*, which totally contradicts the quote. Unless using Force jump to initiate an attack doesn't count or his lightsaber attacks weren't guided by the Force. It's a good quote to teach younglings but that's as far as it goes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I may go Dooku too.



Yeah but if Dooku can tank her Force attacks and get in close she's boned.

Not really, the Exile was a master duelist. She beat Atris, a purely physical Juyo master of the high council in pure saber combat, in Atris' personal Nexus...
Traya held her own against Surik for quite some time.

Originally posted by The Merchant
O wait eye forgot Dooku does know how to counter Drain and on the scale of the Dark Reaper, which absorbs armies. Yeh actually eye change mai vote 2 Dooku.

No he doesn't, and even so they're different techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yeah, that's why Yoda Force hurls himself at Dooku with raging *wrawrr*, which totally contradicts the quote. Unless using Force jump to initiate an attack doesn't count or his lightsaber attacks weren't guided by the Force. It's a good quote to teach younglings but that's as far as it goes.

Yeah, lets just completely disregard what Yoda himself has stated on two separate occasions because your opinion is better than him. Seems legit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, lets just completely disregard what Yoda himself has stated on two separate occasions because your opinion is better than him. Seems legit.
It's not just my opinion, Yoda's actions speak for themselves. Destroying droids with TK. Disarming Ventress with TK. Force blasting Sidious and sending a platform at him. Heck, even sending Dooku's own lightning back at him is considered using the Force to attack. It's not my fault that Yoda consistently violated his own claim.

Originally posted by Selenial
Not really, the Exile was a master duelist. She beat Atris, a purely physical Juyo master of the high council in pure saber combat, in Atris' personal Nexus...
Traya held her own against Surik for quite some time.
Are you implying the Master Duelist isn't a master duelist? Really?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are you implying the Master Duelist isn't a master duelist? Really?

I rate Dooku higher than you and am in no way saying she's better.
I just know that he won't be able to lol smash as soon as he gets in saber range, she will be able to retreat or camo etc.

Originally posted by Selenial
I rate Dooku higher than you and am in no way saying she's better.

How high do you honestly think I rank Dooku to make such statements?

When did Neph say she couldn't?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How high do you honestly think I rank Dooku to make such statements?

When did Neph say she couldn't?

You don't rate him higher than Malgus, do you?

When he said "If he can get in melee range she's boned"

Originally posted by Selenial
You don't rate him higher than Malgus, do you?

Yes.

And she would be. That doesn't mean she'll die instantly, but she'll still die eventually.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's not just my opinion, Yoda's actions speak for themselves. Destroying droids with TK. Disarming Ventress with TK. Force blasting Sidious and sending a platform at him. Heck, even sending Dooku's own lightning back at him is considered using the Force to attack. It's not my fault that Yoda consistently violated his own claim.

None of those are particularly aggressive or violate the spirit of his words. You can point out supposed inconsistencies if you want but the fact is that Yoda notably prefers not to aggressively attack people with the Force, which is why he didn't beat up Dooku despite obviously being capable of doing so. Just because he smashes some droids and harmlessly uses it against some people on occasion doesn't mean that he'd smack around his favorite apprentice with it.

Frankly, you'd have to be as high as Emp to think that Dooku stands a chance against Yoda in an all-out Force battle.

Originally posted by Selenial
Not really, the Exile was a master duelist. She beat Atris, a purely physical Juyo master of the high council in pure saber combat, in Atris' personal Nexus...

Traya held her own against Surik for quite some time.

Traya is still disadvantaged by losing one of her hands to Sion and is a weaker duelist anyway to Dooku. If he forces a duel, she will lose. I doubt she'd be able to successfully retreat and would likely lose her other hand just like she did against Meetra.

That said, I do think she has the advantage in the Force so it's not as if she doesn't have a chance.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Frankly, you'd have to be as high as Emp to think that Dooku stands a chance against Yoda in an all-out Force battle.
Yeah, the difference between the battle with Sidious is that Yoda was actively trying to destroy him at all costs. None of his usual Jedi mantra there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of those are particularly aggressive or violate the spirit of his words. You can point out supposed inconsistencies if you want but the fact is that Yoda notably prefers not to aggressively attack people with the Force, which is why he didn't beat up Dooku despite obviously being capable of doing so. Just because he smashes some droids and harmlessly uses it against some people on occasion doesn't mean that he'd smack around his favorite apprentice with it.

Frankly, you'd have to be as high as Emp to think that Dooku stands a chance against Yoda in an all-out Force battle.

Yeah, giving Force blasts enough to send Sidious flying and hurling a platform capable of flattening Sidious is indeed harmless. Trying to kill someone with lightsaber(guided by the Force) is anything but harmless and he did try to kill DOoku on both occasions.

Regardless, as I said Yoda pulled lightsabers out of Ventress. Nothing was stopping him from doing the same to Dooku, if as you say Yoda is "obviously" capable, harmless and very effective. It can only mean he couldn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."


Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, lets just completely disregard what Yoda himself has stated on two separate occasions because your opinion is better than him. Seems legit.


Not the best logic to use. Taking that completely literally would mean Yoda would never hit anyone.

He was simply teaching Luke that Jedi can't ever just go around fighting for revenge or any other lame reason. In AOTC there clearly was a reason. Dooku had to be stopped to prevent a Civil war. If that's not fighting for "Defense" then I don't know what is.

And as Arheal's pointed out, Yoda did in fact attack Dooku with his Saber. He may not have gone all out with TK, but your reasoning for not doing so isn't even close to being proof.

Gotta love how people think that using Force to stub someone to death or permanently cripple with lightsaber is more harmless and effective than subduing with TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not the best logic to use. Taking that completely literally would mean Yoda would never hit anyone.

He was simply teaching Luke that Jedi can't ever just go around fighting for revenge or any other lame reason. In AOTC there clearly was a reason. Dooku had to be stopped to prevent a Civil war. If that's not fighting for "Defense" then I don't know what is.

And as Arheal's pointed out, Yoda did in fact attack Dooku with his Saber. He may not have gone all out with TK, but your reasoning for not doing so isn't even close to being proof.
I dunno. When Luke actually kills with the Force, he's mortified by it, so obviously he took a different meaning from what Yoda taught than you did.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yeah, giving Force blasts enough to send Sidious flying and hurling a platform capable of flattening Sidious is indeed harmless. Trying to kill someone with lightsaber(guided by the Force) is anything but harmless and he did try to kill DOoku on both occasions.

Regardless, as I said Yoda pulled lightsabers out of Ventress. Nothing was stopping him from doing the same to Dooku, if as you say Yoda is "obviously" capable, harmless and very effective. It can only mean he couldn't.

Was Sidious harmed by either of those attacks? Heck, the second one wasn't even really aimed at him. Killing with a lightsaber is completely different from killing with TK. We see Jedi kill droids with the Force all the time but they rarely/never do that against real people. Remember that the Jedi see the Force in an almost religious light. Using it to kill like that would be sacrilegious and a corruption of life itself.

Yoda can't dominate Dooku as easily as he did Ventress. If he wanted to stop Dooku with the Force he'd likely have to go all out to do so.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I dunno. When Luke actually kills with the Force, he's mortified by it, so obviously he took a different meaning from what Yoda taught than you did.


Of course killing is something completely different to attacking. Luke has clearly attacked opponents many many times.

Heck in DE he attacks Sidious first. And with a Force Push no less. So clearly he didn't take that message completely literally.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck in DE he attacks Sidious first. And with a Force Push no less. So clearly he didn't take that message completely literally.
Dunno, unlike Yoda with Dooku, Luke probably didn't think he could kill with TK. The fact still remains, if Yoda can slam Sidious, Dooku should be no trouble for him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dunno, unlike Yoda with Dooku, Luke probably didn't think he could kill with TK. The fact still remains, if Yoda can slam Sidious, Dooku should be no trouble for him.

Not arguing that. I'm arguing his line of "force is never used for attack" as being some sort of evidence for any fight involving Yoda.

We can hardly just ignore it. When someone makes the argument that Yoda not dominating with the Force proves he can't, why shouldn't we bring up the possibility that he didn't for a different reason when Yoda himself provides that reason?

The Jedi Path is Legends, not canon.

So is Traya.

I know, I'm just saying that's why Filoni's saying what he's saying. Canon!Yoda might have talked that pacifist shit a good game but didn't actually believe it until the OT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda can't dominate Dooku as easily as he did Ventress. If he wanted to stop Dooku with the Force he'd likely have to go all out to do so.


All we need to know is that: Yoda = Sidious > Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know, I'm just saying that's why Filoni's saying what he's saying. Canon!Yoda might have talked that pacifist shit a good game but didn't actually believe it until the OT.
You can also argue that Yoda using the Force offensively prior to OT was mainly for self-defense purposes or for the defense of a greater good (the Republic) when he fought Sids in RotS.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku: "It is obvious that this contest couldn't be decided by our knowledge of the Force but by our skills with a lightsaber".
Yoda did not disagree.

Dooku also seriously thought he had become more powerful than Yoda.

That being said, Dooku takes this. I don't imagine the Exile handling Tyranus.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dunno, unlike Yoda with Dooku, Luke probably didn't think he could kill with TK. The fact still remains, if Yoda can slam Sidious, Dooku should be no trouble for him.
That is stupid logic. If more powerful Force user could simply overpower weaker one, lightsabers wouldn't be needed in the saga at all because in every single fight one Force user has greater potential than the other.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is stupid logic. If more powerful Force user could simply overpower weaker one, lightsabers wouldn't be needed in the saga at all because in every single fight one Force user has greater potential than the other.


Yep and Yoda caught Sidious off guard.