Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

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Skybreaker
The Original Star Wars Saga is my all-time favorite trilogy.

That being said, I've been watching Red Letter Media's famously hilarious reviews of the Prequels, where he painfully dissects and ridicules every plot hole and narrative error Lucas makes in the new movies, and I wonder, I'm pretty sure I could do exactly the same thing with the Originals.

Like, there was some truly horrible acting in the OT, head scratching plot holes, cheesy special effects, unexplained and underdeveloped plot points, underutilized characters, deus ex machinas and narrative mistakes that we all love to bag on the PT for. It's like the OT gets a pass on its nostalgia factor or something.

Amirite?

steverules_2
Cheesy special effects? If they'd had CGI back then they'd have used it, the re-releases being prime examples

queeq
Cheesy SFX??? They were state of the art at the time. There would be no CGI because of these effects.

The_Tempest
Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

Yep. The OT is pretty much sacrosanct relative to the PT in the eyes of the interwebz. The rabid defense that orbits Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy and prompts those losers to shut down Rotten Tomatoes with vindictive death threats and nerd!rage of an unprecedented because someone dared to give TKDR less than a perfect review had its genesis with the OT.

I watched and loved the RLM videos. Found them by and large hilarious and many of their criticisms valid. But PT bashing has become its own phenomenon and much of the vitriol exists because it's "cool" to hate it. Consequently, the OT is often considered to be a demonstration of flawless film-making.

For me personally? There's a lot to like and dislike about both trilogies. My personal summation is that the OT told a less compelling story in a much better way whereas the PT told a much more compelling story in a worse way.

DARTH POWER
Yep the way the PT is dissected down to criticise ,it would be hard not to find faults. The OT is given a few ride of such treatment. As are other franchises.

I personally love the OT and the PT and due to that I pretty much just give their faults a free pass. But then I'm not a critic, so I can just enjoy a film without everything being perfect.

queeq
I dunno... that is kind of a black and white attitude.

Personally I don't bash the PT because of the bashing. Of course, the OT has its faults. Yes, it has cheesy acting, yes, it has some bad scenes. But in essence the OT, especially ANH en ESB, work where they should work. The basic story premise works out (it starts with a simple fairy tale about rescuing a princess), the characters make sense, their motivations are shown in their actions, the OT had a documentary style unique to the genre, it had a unique vision on design (the 'used future' principle)... etc. etc. A lot of it is good and essentially right. And... it was made with non-existent technology and with huge financial restrictions. From a historic point of view that is rather relevant. Oh and, yes it was a phenomenal success, it changed the entire landscape of movie making, American iconology etc. etc... just details.

Now... the PT. The basic story premise does NOT work, the characters are not well thought through, motivations are dodgy and often unclear, it tries te explain a lot in many lengthy dialogue scenes, crucial scenes like falling in love with Padme and the fall to the Dark Side are horrible... And there were NO restrictions at all in technology or money.

No movie is perfect and every movie can be taken apart. But if it works at its core, then I can forgive many faults. To me, the entire PT does not work at its core. And what the RLM reviews do is show WHY... that's why they pick on large topics and little topics. The PT has trouble to convince on many levels. And that can easily be debated, discussed and argued (without nerd rage and if so it should not be considered as nerd rage, which is also a condemnation without considering the arguments).

It comes down to stuff like: if Hayden had been a better actor could he have made his cheesy lines work? Or is the material so bad, you need a Marlon Brando to make it work? So it's not the individual cheesy scenes, or individual faults.... To me the PT is faulty at its storytelling heart and in some ways at its cinematographical heart (the dull blocking of the many conversation scenes for instance). Picking on details is just finding examples to make that point stick.

JediRobin23
There is nothing wrong with the ot. Just the blueray version. Case closed.

The pt just had super high expectations that didn't deliver.

Skybreaker
For me personally? There's a lot to like and dislike about both trilogies. My personal summation is that the OT told a less compelling story in a much better way whereas the PT told a much more compelling story in a worse way.

...this is actually the best comparison of the two trilogies I've ever read.

If the prequels have anything over the originals, it's that the concept of the decay and fall of the Jedi and the Republic is a far more interesting and nuanced one than that of some ragtag rebels trying to blow up a big battle station and a random guy in a black suit.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by JediRobin23
There is nothing wrong with the ot. Just the blueray version. Case closed.



Really? You can't find even a single fault, not even in the Death Star's 1 lame ass weakness?

Weaknesses can certainly be found in the OT if picked on.


Originally posted by Skybreaker
...this is actually the best comparison of the two trilogies I've ever read.

If the prequels have anything over the originals, it's that the concept of the decay and fall of the Jedi and the Republic is a far more interesting and nuanced one than that of some ragtag rebels trying to blow up a big battle station and a random guy in a black suit.


Agree with everything except for "a random guy in a black suit."

That random guy in the black suit was one of the most Legendary Villains to ever come in film, if not The Most Legendary.

JediRobin23
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? You can't find even a single fault, not even in the Death Star's 1 lame ass weakness?

Weaknesses can certainly be found in the OT if picked on

Yep. Don't pick on them as there were great movies when first seen them. After watching them a hundred times then may tend too. However, wouldn't change a thing...

queeq
Originally posted by The_Tempest
My personal summation is that the OT told a less compelling story in a much better way whereas the PT told a much more compelling story in a worse way.

This is true I think... and it basically says the OT is a better movie. I don't care what wonderfully complex story you have to tell, if you tell it badly it sucks. But if you have a simple story and you tell it in a great way, it rules.

Or in other words: if you have a wonderfully complex or compelling story to tell, make sure you tell it well. Otherwise it will fall flat on its face. And the PT did just that.

JediRobin23
Just blame lucas. Like everyone else.....

queeq
Well, yes, in a way that's true. He is to blame for making SW an worldwide phenomenon, upscaling the B-movie genre into the A-movie genre, enriching our childhoods with wonderful movies like SW and Indiana Jones...

And yes, he is also to blame for making the PT into what it was. He was all powerful by then. Can't hide behind others, technological limitation en lack of finance for that one.

Lord Lucien
I love the OT to death, but after... 30 or so viewings each, the tendencies and quirks in dialogue, delivery, camerawork, special effects and so on really pop out. The flaws are evident.

But flaws aside, the OT is still entertaining and able to convey its story, plot and characters to the audience in a relatable, human, emotional manner. The Prequels are an emotional, tonal clusterf*ck. Plot holes, conveniences, dated SFX, etc. are minor annoyances and can even make for some endearing scenes and moments. But soullessness and joylessness are something else entirely, and those are things the PT has in infinite excess (that and TPMs toddler humor--"Icky icky pooh" and "Pee-you-sa!"wink.

When I'm completely unable to like anyone in the entire trilogy or care about anything they're doing, the movie has done something wrong. The OT has whiny Luke, cutesy Ewoks, exploitative metal bikinis, plot inconsistencies, less-than-cerebral dialogue, and Harrison Ford's "acting" in the Falcon's cockpit in ANH, but it still managed to make me enjoy what was happening and like the players involved. I can't say the same for anyone in the PT, save perhaps RotS Palpatine. He was the one character who actually seemed to convey believable emotion and humanity. The most evil character ironically felt the most human and relatable because every other character felt like soulless B-movie robots. That's not bad acting, that's a bad movie. Three of them.


Have any of you ever seen the later 90s comedy Almost Heroes, with Matthew Perry and Chris Farley in one of his last roles? By any objective measure, it's pretty bad. It sucks. Farley was a comedic giant and the movie still blew. But it, and plenty of other bad movies that aren't trying to be bad, still manage to convey more humanity and a greater emotional range than anything in the Prequels. By MILES. Those movies are emotionally f*cked, at best. Dead at worst. That's why they suck. It's not the

Originally posted by Skybreaker
truly horrible acting... head scratching plot holes, cheesy special effects, unexplained and underdeveloped plot points, underutilized characters, deus ex machinas and narrative mistakes...

It's the complete lack of anything resembling human emotion or relatablility. I have to watch The Room to find characters so emotionally lacking and unbelievable as the Prequels.

Kickballjedi
Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

In the end, we have to. I tend to focus on the important points in the story that may be relevant to future episodes and move on.

Episode 1
Medichlorians.
1 Master 1 apprentice Sith.
Anakin is a good pilot
Anakin had no father
Main characters

Episode 2
Anakin falls in love with Padme
Somebody plotted to start the Clone Wars 10years ago.
Only "cloners" can make the amazing dart that killed Zam.
Boba Fett watched his father beheaded by a Jedi.
Yoda can use a light saber

Episode 3
Anakin is cocky and evil
Palpatine planned out the Clone Wars and killing the Jedi 10 years earlier.
Obiwan kicks Grievous' and Anakin's ass.
Yoda has been contacted by QGJ who can become a force ghost.
Wookiees all have the ability to do the tarzan yell.
Having lost everybody close to him, Anakin becomes DV.

There, now I am ready for the new trilogy.

queeq
Good for you.

LukeStarkiller
Originally posted by Skybreaker
The Original Star Wars Saga is my all-time favorite trilogy.

That being said, I've been watching Red Letter Media's famously hilarious reviews of the Prequels, where he painfully dissects and ridicules every plot hole and narrative error Lucas makes in the new movies, and I wonder, I'm pretty sure I could do exactly the same thing with the Originals.

Like, there was some truly horrible acting in the OT, head scratching plot holes, cheesy special effects, unexplained and underdeveloped plot points, underutilized characters, deus ex machinas and narrative mistakes that we all love to bag on the PT for. It's like the OT gets a pass on its nostalgia factor or something.

Amirite?

Rurite? Yeah totally, at least in my book.
I think you nailed it when you said that the OT gets a pass that the PT doesn't.

For people like me who are old enough to have seen Star Wars in a cinema way back in 1977, then of course nostalgia plays a huge role. But every time I rewatch ANH as an adult the more disillusioned I become. The faults become clearer and clearer with every rewatch. The same goes for every Star Wars film, but I totally agree that it's "accepted wisdom" among critically unthinking fanboys/gangirls that the OT is great and the PT isn't. I don't see how anyone can logically argue this position.

With some fans, even when you point out the faults, plot holes, illogicalities, bad acting, etc, etc, in the OT they generally won't accept what you're saying and accuse you of blasphemy for daring to hold an opinion they don't share. It's almost as if they're putting their fingers in their ears and going "Blah, blah, blah, not listening." This is willful ignorance and you can't reason with such people.

LukeStarkiller
Originally posted by LukeStarkiller
Rurite? Yeah totally, at least in my book.
I think you nailed it when you said that the OT gets a pass that the PT doesn't.

For people like me who are old enough to have seen Star Wars in a cinema way back in 1977, then of course nostalgia plays a huge role. But every time I rewatch ANH as an adult the more disillusioned I become. The faults become clearer and clearer with every rewatch. The same goes for every Star Wars film, but I totally agree that it's "accepted wisdom" among critically unthinking fanboys/gangirls that the OT is great and the PT isn't. I don't see how anyone can logically argue this position.

With some fans, even when you point out the faults, plot holes, illogicalities, bad acting, etc, etc, in the OT they generally won't accept what you're saying and accuse you of blasphemy for daring to hold an opinion they don't share. It's almost as if they're putting their fingers in their ears and going "Blah, blah, blah, not listening." This is willful ignorance and you can't reason with such people.

Also as a newbie I can't post links, but check out "Why do Star Wars Fans hate Star Wars?" on onesixthwarriors dot com

Lord Lucien
I really thought this subforum was dead.



Not yet. Just keeps twitching.

quanchi112
Most do I don't.

queeq
Time for it to die...

Flyattractor
Much like all 21st Millennium Remakes and Reboots of Classic and Beloved Series.

You stupid Emo Hipster Dipshits ruin everything.

queeq
Quite.

Plus in a reboot Luke would be a woman... oh wait... Rey...

Surtur
I think a lot of people do overlook the flaws of the OT. One thing that really captivated people with Star Wars was the spectacle. They'd never really seen special effects like that before. Especially for a lot of kids at the time, that is why it made an impression. It wasn't like it had the best acting or directing.

That spectacle is what hooked people, and then it was great movies like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi that really combined the special effects with quality movies. I find Episode 4 to be, by far, the weakest of the trilogy. It has a special place in peoples hearts because it was the first, but I feel episodes 5 and 6 are leaps and bounds ahead of it.

queeq
I don't think you really grasp the succes of Ep4 though. It has flaws, but it also has a story that people at the time got. It drew such huge crowds including a lot of people that didn't like sci-fi. They were attracted to the simple fairy tale of a young farmer that goes out to rescue a princess and grow as a person as he went along. Very basic hero's journey story... It wasn't just the spectacle, it was the story and the imagination. Plus, yes the effects had some relevance, it looked like something no one had ever seen before.

ANH is very simple, part of it's strength. It managed to use a simple story to open up a huge universe (one that was made smaller by the PT because people kept running into each other despite the larger amount of planets).

And I would certainly not rate it as the weakest. Because when it comes to the actual narrative there's not much wrong with it. The acting isn't all that great all over, true, it's a bit cheesy, true... But it has something that the PT for instance is totally lacking: heart! ANH is alive. The way it was shot also is more dynamic than the PT, that is leaden, heavy and when it comes to the way it's shot, it's all pretty boring an unimaginative...

quanchi112
Big time. Nostalgia for most of these devoted followers of the original trilogy clouds their judgment IMO.

Lord Lucien
There's a big difference between not seeing a film's flaws (or TV show's, or book's, or video-game's), and letting those flaws ruin your enjoyment of it--thus making you try to deny that there are any in the first place. And for many subjective elements, what's a flaw to someone might not be to someone else.


The flaws in the OT are numerable--in ANH especially--but most people can take them and still see a very good movie they enjoy watching. Nostalgia will certainly carry it forward for years to come, but just as the original viewers of old black & white films are mostly dead, once the people who grew up with the OT are gone, those movies are going to be viewed and critiqued under a less rosy light---that's just the nature of technological progress and societal change. It will get to a time when they won't be reviewed for enjoyment anymore, they'll only be analyzed for cultural and industrial impact.


The PT has it's young, nostalgic sympathizers, and they'll continue to hold it in esteem for a long time to come---and there's nothing wrong with that; it's their childhood memories. For most others who aren't young enough, the PT's flaws are too many and obvious to overlook and find enjoyment any longer. I agree with Queeq: that chief flaw is that they have no heart, and feel lifeless... but not everyone sees or feels that, which is fine. I have a feeling though that... the ways in which the OT has been received for it's contributions to cinema and pop culture... the PT will not. Nor the Disney films.

Surtur
Yeah, it just seemed like with the prequels Lucas really just said f*ck it and wrote a shit story and decided to just mask it with state of the art special effects, cgi, etc. It really seemed like what he cared about most was how much cgi he could use and all the blue screens.

I do think episode 3 is still a great movie..you just have to ignore any scene with Anakin and Padme that doesn't involve him force choking her. George Lucas has written some of the worst "romantic" dialogue I've ever heard.

Lord Lucien
I can't feel invested or care about anything in Ep. 3. It has cool lightsaber choreography, more Palpatine scenes and it's "darker", but it's as emotionally engaging and interesting to me as TPM or AotC. Which is not at all. I guess alot of people feel that some impressive fight choreography carries the day well enough to make a good film, but I don't agree. I need to like the characters and care about what they're doing and why they're doing it, and in RotS I just can't.


Plot inconsistencies, incredibly flat characters, atrocious dialogue (not "cheesy" like in ANH--atrocious like in The Room), gratuitous CGI, boring setpieces, irritating ending, the editing choices (like the overabundance of scene 'wipes'), just... everything that isn't the music.

queeq
Well here's another way to look at it. OT iconography is way stronger than anything the PT has produced. Vader, R2, lightsabers, the Falcon, Boba Fett, Stormtroopers, Chewbacca, Yoda, 3PO, Palpy.... the list goes on and on. PT iconography well... hardly made an impact. Stormtroopers are still cooler than Clones.

Compare that to another fantasy franchise that came out round the time of the PT - LOTR. Everyone knows that iconography. The PT... not so much.

That could be considered an objective way of looking how much impact a franchise had. (The Hobbit did not... it was Jackson's PT).

And age doesn't always mean less for a movie's meaning. I still completely love and adore 1939's Wizard of Oz. It's hugely dated in may ways, but the fun, the heart, the imagination and the life of it has not. And I can enjoy that everyday. The Wicked Witch of the West is still a classic, like Darth Vader, like Sauron and Saruman... and so UNlike the PT Anakin, Grievous, Maul or Dooku.

Darth Thor
Darth Maul definitely had an impact on pop culture.

Also think Palpatine was more of a Prequel character than an OT, given he was only in a few scenes in ROTJ for the OT.

Also think much of Obi-Wan and Yoda's popularity comes from the PT. Especially Obi-Wan given it was a very different Obi-Wan to the one we saw in the OT, yet it's the PT version people mostly associate with that name now IMO.

And Jar Jar totally impacted pop culture eek!

Lord Lucien
Maul, certainly. Palpatine, sure. Obi-Wan and Yoda have two different version of themselves---OT and everything else. The latter I think is split between the PT and the Clone Wars.




And Jar Jar has had the biggest impact.

queeq
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Darth Maul definitely had an impact on pop culture.

Also think Palpatine was more of a Prequel character than an OT, given he was only in a few scenes in ROTJ for the OT.

Also think much of Obi-Wan and Yoda's popularity comes from the PT. Especially Obi-Wan given it was a very different Obi-Wan to the one we saw in the OT, yet it's the PT version people mostly associate with that name now IMO.

And Jar Jar totally impacted pop culture eek!

What a load of crock.

Maul made some impact but mostly to SW fans.

Palpy is all OT (ROTJ)... They enhanced him a bit in the PT, but Palpy's greatest scenes and lines come from the OT. OB1 and Yoda's popularity come from the PT??? I mean... where were you in 1980... Yoda rocked the crap out of the world. No one could believe that was a real size puppet. And to add to that: all of Yoda's most quoted lines are from the OT, NOT the PT.
Even OB1... the guy was made legendary by Alec Guinness... not by McGregor.

You're probably younger than me. But the impact the OT had on the world and the world of movies, even at the time, was HUGE... To me, thinking back to the time of the PT, I think it's LOTR that took the crown worldwide. Lucas fumbled the ball... (not financially of course)

And JarJar... okay, I'll give you that one. That truly is THE icon from the PT: how not to make movie characters!

Lord Lucien
Yeah I find that many of the quotes and iconography from the PT that gets hailed as "famous" or "timeless" or "legendary" is only among Star Wars fans proper. Among casual viewers I never hear anything more than "Maul was cool, and Jar Jar ruined the movies." That's as far as they know or care.

queeq
Indeed. Quite the legacy.

I wonder: is there any memorable quote from Yoda in the PT at all?

Oh yes, I think from deep down I remember one: "Failed, I have."

Sounds just about right. wink

cdtm
Originally posted by queeq
What a load of crock.

Maul made some impact but mostly to SW fans.

Palpy is all OT (ROTJ)... They enhanced him a bit in the PT, but Palpy's greatest scenes and lines come from the OT. OB1 and Yoda's popularity come from the PT??? I mean... where were you in 1980... Yoda rocked the crap out of the world. No one could believe that was a real size puppet. And to add to that: all of Yoda's most quoted lines are from the OT, NOT the PT.
Even OB1... the guy was made legendary by Alec Guinness... not by McGregor.

You're probably younger than me. But the impact the OT had on the world and the world of movies, even at the time, was HUGE... To me, thinking back to the time of the PT, I think it's LOTR that took the crown worldwide. Lucas fumbled the ball... (not financially of course)

And JarJar... okay, I'll give you that one. That truly is THE icon from the PT: how not to make movie characters!

LOTR walks all over the PT, no question.

Ironic the company that made them went bankrupt, while the PT stake holders made out like bandits.

Lord Lucien
According to their Wikipedia page, New Line Cinema had some shady accounting practices going on involving LoTR.

queeq
Yup, almost ruined The Hobbit. But then Peter Jackson did that for us. ;-)

Darth Thor
Originally posted by queeq
What a load of crock.

Maul made some impact but mostly to SW fans.

Palpy is all OT (ROTJ)... They enhanced him a bit in the PT, but Palpy's greatest scenes and lines come from the OT. OB1 and Yoda's popularity come from the PT??? I mean... where were you in 1980... Yoda rocked the crap out of the world. No one could believe that was a real size puppet. And to add to that: all of Yoda's most quoted lines are from the OT, NOT the PT.
Even OB1... the guy was made legendary by Alec Guinness... not by McGregor.

You're probably younger than me. But the impact the OT had on the world and the world of movies, even at the time, was HUGE... To me, thinking back to the time of the PT, I think it's LOTR that took the crown worldwide. Lucas fumbled the ball... (not financially of course)

And JarJar... okay, I'll give you that one. That truly is THE icon from the PT: how not to make movie characters!



You're acting as if I said the OT wasn't Iconic or that the PT was more Iconic than the OT.

I was just pointing out the Prequels did also have some impact on Pop culture but clearly not to the same extent.

And yes LOTR was bigger at the time. But The Prequels were certainly more impactful than the Hobbit trilogy (which just kind of came and went), and say what you want about them, but they kept the Saga alive and going.

queeq
Impact on pop culture nowadays has EVERYTHING to do with being iconic. If you refer to something on a t-shirt or a tv-show, it must be concise and direct and everyone must be able to understand it. The impact of the PT is mainly negative.

But yes the PT kept the money of the saga flowing... but unfortunately, like The Hobbit, not very memorable. And to be honest, the PT SHOULD have been memorable. And the Hobbit SHOULD have been a single kick-ass movie. Not a drawn out drag of a trilogy. (although, the scenes of Bilbo and Gollem, and Bilbo and Smaug are actually true highlights of modern filmmaking... something that the PT still lacks).

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Thor
and say what you want about them, but they kept the Saga alive and going. *mumbles* maybe shoulda... just been let be *cough/wheeze*


EDIT: The guys at Honest Trailers didn't overlook ESBs flaws:


8pg1obK0Qfo

CentaurSuperman
Originally posted by queeq
Impact on pop culture nowadays has EVERYTHING to do with being iconic. If you refer to something on a t-shirt or a tv-show, it must be concise and direct and everyone must be able to understand it. The impact of the PT is mainly negative.

But yes the PT kept the money of the saga flowing... but unfortunately, like The Hobbit, not very memorable. And to be honest, the PT SHOULD have been memorable. And the Hobbit SHOULD have been a single kick-ass movie. Not a drawn out drag of a trilogy. (although, the scenes of Bilbo and Gollem, and Bilbo and Smaug are actually true highlights of modern filmmaking... something that the PT still lacks). I do not think so that the prequels were too bad they had some good memorable parts. ROTS is a very good movie with the order 66 part brilliant. Episode 7 wasn't as good

Lord Lucien
Ugh, totally disagree.

queeq
No, Lucien, he says it just right.

Originally posted by CentaurSuperman
I do not think so that the prequels were too bad they had some good memorable parts. ROTS is a very good movie with the order 66 part brilliant. Episode 7 wasn't as good

These are the keywords:

- not too bad
- some good memorable parts

But yeah I agree with Lucien: TFA is way more memorable than the entire PT.

Lord Lucien
TFA was fun. I liked the characters, the plot was simple and easy to follow, the effects were real feeling and well done. It retreaded the OT hella-mad, but it's not the movie's fault that it had to re-establish trust with the fanbase after the last 4 theatrical releases were just, so, awful. Hearkening back to the originals was the best and most effective way to communicate "See, we actually get Star Wars and can do it right." They proved (they had to prove) they can make a Star Wars film, not a Prequel reject.

A 'soft reboot' was very necessary for Disney right out of the gate. It had to be done. Now they can (and hopefully will) move on.

queeq
I agree. And now really move on beyond Rogue One. Fan service days should be over after two fan serving films.

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