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From what we seen strictly in the video games, what story did you feel was the greatest and most memorable? Revan's, The Exile's, or the Hero of Tython's? Did you feel they connected with each other in a good manner? Explain your answer.

Can we use the restored content mod?

If you feel that makes a difference.

The Jedi Exile had the best story if we exclude everything that has to do with force wounds or force drains.

Originally posted by Based
The Jedi Exile had the best story if we exclude everything that has to do with force wounds or force drains Revan.

KOTOR 2 was my favorite. Revan's story is the most iconic one though.

Kotor 2 > Kotor > Knight Story.

Knight story is the most boring, all "best in the world" "prodigal son" bull shit that just makes you want to go kill yourself.

Kotor was decent, plot twist was cool I guess.

Kotor 2 was dark and interesting, exploring other sides of the force that we never saw in other works, and I really enjoyed that. No more "you've always been great woopedy woop" it's more "You're going to do amazing things because you have to, or this is the end." Played the thing hundreds of times, always found new lines that make me smile.

KotOR2 was gross. Like, it gave me Ebola.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
KotOR2 was gross. Like, it gave me Ebola.

That's because you're like eight, and have no understanding of Moral codes, which is honestly what half that story was.

Battlefront 2 > KotoR 2

Originally posted by Based
The Jedi Exile had the best story if we exclude everything that has to do with force wounds or force drains.



Of course the whole story pretty much revolves around those idiotic concepts...

Originally posted by Selenial
That's because you're like eight, and have no understanding of Moral codes, which is honestly what half that story was.

He's 12, not 8.

I'm 11 and 2/4ths, meanie.

Don't disrespect your elders, sonny.

**** off and change my diaper.

In honesty though, KotOR2 was the reason the ISIS uprising began.

It's a little known fact that one of ISIS's core aims is to make Kotor 2 mandatory playing in the middle east. Dem crazy fans, huh?

Revan's.

The Exile's tried too hard to be deep and dark and edgy for all the emo kids and just came off entirely too pretentious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
for all the emo kids and just came off entirely too pretentious.
aka Neph and Selenial

The darkness of Kotor2 is really exaggerated. It probably has just as much humor as Kotor does, which had it's fair share of darkness btw what with Taris being destroyed, multiple torture scenes, Carth whinging and the DS ending where you kill Jolee, Juhani and Mission. Most of the darkness of Kotor 2 was in the characters backstories, the evil characters and the galaxy struggling after 2 large-scale wars. Other than those points I can't think of much that was actually that dark. It just isn't the thrilling space opera that Kotor 1 is. And it's not as edgy as anyone says. Can anyone actually give me an example of the game trying to be edgy?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
KotOR2 was gross. Like, it gave me Ebola.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
aka Neph and Selenial
Nice, real nice. Very mature, way to stray away from the "status quo", I can see you're really trying hard.


Originally posted by Selenial
Kotor 2 > Kotor > Knight Story.

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this.



Again, i agree with you Sel, KoTOR 2 was such a great experience, It wasn't some bigass Space drama like Mass effect or the first Kotor, but it was awesome, the way you explored the hypocrisy of the Jedi & Sith - and ironically both orders were all but gone. seeing the interesting case of a force wound, And of course you have to take into account the most well written and interesting Character in the game. Kreia, that manipulative old witch, instantly became my all time favorite SW character, her dialogue was awesome even without the Restoration Mod. The game had it's flaws, but it still remains one of the best SW games and one i still play till this day(More so than KoTOR 1 I might add)

When you don't reply to my messages and ignore me, it's hard.

Oh my. Is it now?

So hard.

KotOR II>KotOR>Knight Story

Honestly just played the JK storyline because Laura Bailey was in it. Too bad that couldn't hold that boring mess together.

I continue to be astonished people actually liked KotOR II, let alone more then the classic.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
KotOR II>KotOR>Knight Story

Honestly just played the JK storyline because Laura Bailey was in it. Too bad that couldn't hold that boring mess together.

I'm curious, did you ever play Bloodrayne? lol that's one of the reasons i love Laura Bailey

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I continue to be astonished people actually liked KotOR II, let alone more then the classic.
"Classic?" Snickers.

It seems like the kind of thing you'd flip your shit for, honestly. Revan wank like no other.


And yeah, I've dabbled, Fated.

By the time I reached Traya and was a lightsaber throw away from the boss fight that would complete the game, I was so bored I decided to take a break for a week. If that isn't embarrassing for the game, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
From what we seen strictly in the video games, what story did you feel was the greatest and most memorable? Revan's, The Exile's, or the Hero of Tython's? Did you feel they connected with each other in a good manner? Explain your answer.

I know I'll get hated for this but personally I liked the Hero of Tython's story the most.

I'm not sure why but the first two just never really appealed to me that much. For the most part I just never really got invested in them. I think partly it's the fact that the HOT's story is somewhat more straightforward than the first two. I don't like things to be too complicated.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Classic?" Snickers.

It is considered a classic though... Doesn't mean it's good (although I most certainly think it is).

Originally posted by ares834
It is considered a classic though... Doesn't mean it's good (although I most certainly think it is).
The definition for what makes it classic applies to KotOR II, especially the restored one, as well, was my point. KotOR is the classic Knights of the Old Republic; it's just the first one.

Huh? Why? KotOR II isn't a classic for various reasons. First it's a sequel (which does hurt its status) and secondly it's reception was far more mixed. Plus it's storyline is a rehash of Planescape: Torment (which is also considered a classic). So don't see how KotOR II is a classic just because the original is.

Doesn't mean KotOR is a better game though.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And yeah, I've dabbled, Fated.

I knew there was a reason i liked you.


Originally posted by ares834
Huh? Why? KotOR II isn't a classic for various reasons. First it's a sequel (which does hurt its status) and secondly it's reception was far more mixed. Plus it's storyline is a rehash of Planescape: Torment (which is also considered a classic). So don't see how KotOR II is a classic just because the original is.


It's a classic in what it introduced. The still debated Wound theory, the consequences behind every action regardless of whether it's good or bad, The idea that neither sith nor jedi are truly greater than one another, the strength of Force bonds and of course we got to get a feel for what Revan was like as a Student from Kreia. The game - contrary to what DarthMature66 thinks, was refreshing in the sense that, It wasn't just a carbon copy of the first game(Like all the COD and Halo games) Story-wise, the game wasn't trying to be like its predecessor, it was trying a pretty unique idea(Force Wounds like Nihilius/Exile) and showcasing the Extinction/Revival of the Jedi. In my opinion, it didn't need to have some big war going on, it was fine just focusing on the aspects of the force, Morality and the Exile learning about them from Kreia.

The characters were much more interesting(Jolee, HK-47 and Canderous are the only memorable characters of the first game - hell T3-M4 didn't get a personality until the KOTOR 2!)The story line was great - though broken at times. The dialogue, well written and the idea was/is pretty unique. Kotor 2 is a classic in it's own right and story-wise, it's better than its predecessor.(Lifting the maximum level cap was pretty nice too)

Sorry for the block of text

That's cool. But it's plot and characters are mostly rehashes Planescape. Beyond all that, what makes KotOR a classic isn't the characters, gameplay, or even the plot but the Revan reveal which is one of the most iconic moments in gaming. KotOR II doesn't have that.

And sorry, but lifting the level cap was a terrible idea that is partially responsible for ruining the end game.

KotOR's story is the same cookie cutter BioWare's been hashing since the 90s, but it's a classic? Sounds like a double standard to me. And the idea that Revan's "reveal" which was thrown in your face literally the entire plot, so much that even Malak doesn't get why you don't know, is the one of the most iconic moments in gaming is lulzworthy. Then again we play a dude who thinks standing next to bombs is cool, so I guess we can't blame him for being stupid.

Are you serious? The Revan reveal is undoubtedly one of the most iconic moments in gaming. Absolutely no question about it. Is it as iconic as Aerith's death or drawing the Master Sword? Hell, no. Yet, still up near the top and likely in the top twenty five.

Edit: Even IGN the biggest video game web site agrees with me. Listing it as the 16th most iconic moment in gaming.

http://www.ign.com/top/video-game-moments/16

Originally posted by ares834
That's cool. But it's plot and characters are mostly rehashes Planescape. Beyond all that, what makes KotOR a classic isn't the characters, gameplay, or even the plot but the Revan reveal which is one of the most iconic moments in gaming. KotOR II doesn't have that.

Never played Planescape, i wouldn't know, yeah Revan's reveal was cool and a hell of a twist, well deserving of that spot it holds, But Plot, characters and gameplay are what make a game, not a single moment. Mass Effect is a prime example of this, Great characters, great plot, great gameplay and "epic" moments. Again I'm not denying that KoTOR is a great game - hell it's one of the best, but, personally, i greatly prefer Kotor 2.



To be fair, there was going to be a lot of content that would have let you reach that level, but it was rushed because Lucasfilms said so.

It all comes down to preference, I like KoTOR 2, you like KoTOR. agree to disagree dude.

Not saying it is the superior game (although I do prefer it) just that it's more of a classic. Which, let me reiterate, does not mean it is a better game. I dislike many classic games like FF7 and Chronotrigger.

Originally posted by ares834
http://www.ign.com/top/video-game-moments/16
IGN? lol.

Anyway, I was eight when I played this, and I knew the main character was Revan. I never got why it's such a shocker to everyone.

Still, your idea of what makes something classic is a little skewed. If something's aged and to a standard, it's a classic. Dig Dug's a "classic" and nothing happens in it. Pac-Man is a classic. The idea that with the advent of story, something "amazing" has to happen for a game to be a classic is funny.

Strawman. I never said that. I said what makes KotOR a classic is the twist, not that a game needs it to be considered a classic.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
KotOR's story is the same cookie cutter BioWare's been hashing since the 90s, but it's a classic?

Time to dust this off I think.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The darkness of Kotor2 is really exaggerated. It probably has just as much humor as Kotor does, which had it's fair share of darkness btw what with Taris being destroyed, multiple torture scenes, Carth whinging and the DS ending where you kill Jolee, Juhani and Mission. Most of the darkness of Kotor 2 was in the characters backstories, the evil characters and the galaxy struggling after 2 large-scale wars. Other than those points I can't think of much that was actually that dark. It just isn't the thrilling space opera that Kotor 1 is. And it's not as edgy as anyone says. Can anyone actually give me an example of the game trying to be edgy?

I said it tried too hard to be these things. Took itself far too seriously and is replete with missed opportunities. It's an emo kid's wet dream, no doubt, but doesn't do anything for me.

But it didn't take itself too seriously. As I said, it had a ton of humor in it. The first thing that happens is that you get snarked at by Kreia, then you meet Atton who makes bad jokes every other line, then you meet HK-50 who is hilarious, kill Sith, blow up Paragus, run around Telos, play as that droid for a bit etc. None of this stuff "tries too hard" to be dark or edgy and that carries on throughout the game. Kotor 1 is darker and edgier than Kotor 2. Kotor 2 does have a more sombre tone and has deeper, more philosophical themes but you've never shown where exactly this hurts the game. You're just a whingy baby making a mountain out of a molehill and repeating LL's criticisms.

Kreia getting beaten and gangraped was pretty dark and edgy.

They didn't rape her. And Bastila getting tortured into insanity was darker.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But it didn't take itself too seriously. As I said, it had a ton of humor in it. The first thing that happens is that you get snarked at by Kreia, then you meet Atton who makes bad jokes every other line, then you meet HK-50 who is hilarious, kill Sith, blow up Paragus, run around Telos, play as that droid for a bit etc. None of this stuff "tries too hard" to be dark or edgy and that carries on throughout the game. Kotor 1 is darker and edgier than Kotor 2. Kotor 2 does have a more sombre tone and has deeper, more philosophical themes but you've never shown where exactly this hurts the game. You're just a whingy baby making a mountain out of a molehill and repeating LL's criticisms.



Good to know I can still bring you to tears after all this time about your favorite stories and characters. How about we start talking about The Joker for old time's sake?

Don't ever change, Neph.

Good thing to know that you'll keep pretending that you're trolling to mask your laziness and incompetence. The fact that I put the minimum of effort into my response and called you mean words doesn't mean I got worked up. No matter how many laughing emotes you post. I wrote that while watching an LP of Xcom: the Bureau, I assure you I was more interested in that then you.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2012/1/19/21/anigif_enhanced-buzz-2946-1327026302-16.gif

Oh, please. Your butthurt over this and many other topics has been the stuff of legend for years. Remember all those rants dedicated to how The Joker was objectively, factually the best villain ever?

watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Pretty sure this was you during a Britney Spears phase.



http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/030/403/YouMad.jpg

Yeah, yeah, we know. LOL IM NOT INTERESTED IN UR OPINION... even as I actively engage you... LOL THIS STUFF ISNT IMPORTANT... even tho I have like 15k posts dedicated to the subject...

You're transparent as ever, Casper.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They didn't rape her.
"I suffered indignities..."

Originally posted by Emperordmb
"I suffered indignities..."

Which were, coincidentally, my verbatim words upon finishing that game. Lucien and I came up with a much better story.

She got beat up. Indignity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2012/1/19/21/anigif_enhanced-buzz-2946-1327026302-16.gif

Oh, please. Your butthurt over this and many other topics has been the stuff of legend for years. Remember all those rants dedicated to how The Joker was objectively, factually the best villain ever?

watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Pretty sure this was you during a Britney Spears phase.

I remember them being like 4 years ago, sure. I was more angry over a friend acting like a towering dick to me than anything else. And iirc I was only saying he was better than Palpatine, which is still objectively true.

I assure you, I'm not "mad", and your deflections won't work. You can't contradict my point, admit it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/030/403/YouMad.jpg

Yeah, yeah, we know. LOL IM NOT INTERESTED IN UR OPINION... even as I actively engage you... LOL THIS STUFF ISNT IMPORTANT... even tho I have like 15k posts dedicated to the subject...

You're transparent as ever, Casper.

Yeah, because it's such an effort for me to... remember the first two planets of the game then write about them. Just because I'm talking to you doesn't mean I'm emotionally invested in the conversation. I know you like to think that you're the most important thing ever but I can actually disagree with you and call you whingy without giving much of a shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I remember them being like 4 years ago, sure.

Which makes it all the more amusing when that butthurt manifests now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was more angry over a friend acting like a towering dick to me than anything else.

Not really. You were angry over the fact that not everyone shared your opinion on a totally subjective issue.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IygOkfBnlY8/TmAJ5l7-DvI/AAAAAAAAC4Q/mhxQqjcLap4/s640/wss.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
And iirc I was only saying he was better than Palpatine, which is still objectively true.

http://www.troll.me/images/obama-isnt-happy/this-*****-right-here.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
I assure you, I'm not "mad", and your deflections won't work.

I know you desperately want me to believe you're not angry because you despise the power I have over you.

I assure you, though, that I know better.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can't contradict my point, admit it.

Which one's that, again?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, because it's such an effort for me to... remember the first two planets of the game then write about them. Just because I'm talking to you doesn't mean I'm emotionally invested in the conversation. I know you like to think that you're the most important thing ever but I can actually disagree with you and call you whingy without giving much of a shit.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Yeah-Sure-Okay.gif

Whatever you have to tell yourself to get by, my son.

TOR stories were all shit. Kotor had a good story and I havnt played kotor 2 or read the revan novel so I cant comment on that one

Play Kotor 2, fool.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I havnt read the revan novel
http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/airborne/880280d1395932108-vacation-napoleon-dynamite-luckeee.jpg

You say that...

But you have read the Revan novel 7 times IIRC.

And I didn't enjoy any of the 7 reads.
Also, come to chat. I see your not busy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which makes it all the more amusing when that butthurt manifests now.

What am I butthurt over again? I'm not butthurt over you saying Kotor 2 was too dark and edgy because I easily called you on it and showed it wasn't true. So its no big deal.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. You were angry over the fact that not everyone shared your opinion on a totally subjective issue.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IygOkfBnlY8/TmAJ5l7-DvI/AAAAAAAAC4Q/mhxQqjcLap4/s640/wss.jpg

The same thing happened a month ago with Ant, so yeah it is true. It wasn't the pony stuff, I've seen worse, its that a friend was being a jackass to me. Which makes me mad. Just like how it wasn't anything to do with the Joker, it was that you were trying so hard to piss me off... that pissed me off.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know you desperately want me to believe you're not angry because you despise the power I have over you.

I assure you, though, that I know better.

No, you're just desperate to try to feel that you have power over me. The truth is that I just like talking to you but find your constant baiting and attempts to act as if you "got" me to be very tiresome.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which one's that, again?

The Kotor 2 thing. Keep up gramps.

(This is a friendly joke. It does not mean that I am getting frustrated with the conversation. I just felt like I should give you this disclaimer to help you understand.)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Yeah-Sure-Okay.gif

Whatever you have to tell yourself to get by, my son.

The fact that you felt the need to try to make this into some great trap to lord over the fact that you "made me angry", only suggests you're the one who needs to tell himself stuff to get by. The only thing I'm feeling atm is a need to pee.

Oh, Neph, didn't you realize...?

http://blog.chron.com/tubular/files/2014/03/its-a-trap.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
I assure you I was more interested in that then you.

Officially debunked. Your potent interest in me endures.

I win.

As if I didn't know you'd say that. What a loser. Tell yourself you won if you want, I called this at the start.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good thing to know that you'll keep pretending that you're trolling to mask your laziness and incompetence.

So again, keep trying to distract from the fact that you couldn't refute my point about Kotor 2. It's good comedy for me.

As if I didn't know you'd say that.

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q510/balzebub66/ackbarTrap02s_zps3f0d0cf4.jpg

http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/emt725/SqToAcuteTri/Square.gif

It's a trap squared! I win times two.

So how does Kotor 2 try too hard to be dark and edgy, bro?

Yeah, I'd try to change the subject too. So we've got Kreia being raped by a walking zombie, that same walking zombie apparently obsessing over/falling in love with but not really the player-character, a world-eating Eldritch abomination, that same world-eating Eldritch abomination mind-raping fools, an Obviously Evil mentor figure going on a nihilistic crusade against a cruel deified Force, three or four conservative patriarchs trying to force themselves upon the female protagonist and neuter her in an Obvious Rape Allegory, etc. and so forth.

K2 had some major potench, but botched it in favor of hipster pretentiousness. Took itself far too seriously.

Again, how does indgities equal rape? When there's torture, the fact that she was stripped of the Force, tossed out of the academy, and almost killed on the Ebon Hawk?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Again, how does indgities equal rape? When there's torture, the fact that she was stripped of the Force, tossed out of the academy, and almost killed on the Ebon Hawk?

I mean, it's pretty damn obvious since we see the brutal torture and Force strippage before the screen cuts to black and she mutters in narration: I suffered... indignities.

Pacing of the scene, censorship, and dialogue and placement of the dialogue seem to heavily imply rape and I'd say it's pretty obvious, myself.

Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that if I critiqued K2 as being "too light and fluffy" you emo kids would be falling over yourselves to ride shotgun in the rapewagon to Grimdarkville?

Doesn't Traya also use the word "indignities" other times with sexual connotation?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, I'd try to change the subject too. So we've got Kreia being raped by a walking zombie, that same walking zombie apparently obsessing over/falling in love with but not really the player-character, a world-eating Eldritch abomination, that same world-eating Eldritch abomination mind-raping fools, an Obviously Evil mentor figure going on a nihilistic crusade against a cruel deified Force, three or four conservative patriarchs trying to force themselves upon the female protagonist and neuter her in an Obvious Rape Allegory, etc. and so forth.

K2 had some major potench, but botched it in favor of hipster pretentiousness. Took itself far too seriously.

Your points are hilariously warped to try to make them fit your premise. There was no rape, Sion's obsession wasn't dark and edgy lol, nor was Nihilus's nature or his planet-eating (any moreso from Malak genociding Telos and Taris) or Kreia's anti-Force stance. And since you can be whichever gender you want theres no inherent rape allegory in that scene, plus you can consent to it willingly if you're LS.

It took itself seriously in the serious scenes and lightly in the other scenes. Thats all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your points are hilariously warped to try to make them fit your premise. There was no rape, Sion's obsession wasn't dark and edgy lol, nor was Nihilus's nature or his planet-eating (any moreso from Malak genociding Telos and Taris) or Kreia's anti-Force stance. And since you can be whichever gender you want theres no inherent rape allegory in that scene, plus you can consent to it willingly if you're LS.

It took itself seriously in the serious scenes and lightly in the other scenes. Thats all.

It's just so sad that someone can't possibly disagree with you on such things. But also really funny. excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I mean, it's pretty damn obvious since we see the brutal torture and Force strippage before the screen cuts to black and she mutters in narration: I suffered... indignities.

We don't actually see any torture. It's just something you latched onto the story.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Doesn't Traya also use the word "indignities" other times with sexual connotation?
I don't remember this, but even if she had, rape and sex are hardly related past face value. Why would this matter?

...I'm pretty sure she wouldn't refer to consensual sex as an "indignity" bro. When I say torture, I'm referring to that brutal assbeating she got from Sion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I mean, it's pretty damn obvious since we see the brutal torture and Force strippage before the screen cuts to black and she mutters in narration: I suffered... indignities.

Pacing of the scene, censorship, and dialogue and placement of the dialogue seem to heavily imply rape and I'd say it's pretty obvious, myself.

Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that if I critiqued K2 as being "too light and fluffy" you emo kids would be falling over yourselves to ride shotgun in the rapewagon to Grimdarkville?

I think its more likely that she's referring to the indignities we just saw her suffer.

I also don't think a) they'd be allowed to have rape in a star wars game, b) Avellone would write an allusion to rape so clumsily and poorly and c) Kreia wouldn't shoot Sion into the Sun immediately on her return if it was true. This is the woman who almost wiped out the Jedi Order because they said she was a bad teacher.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think its more likely that she's referring to the indignities we just saw her suffer.

Nah, it would be an excessively poor scene in terms of pacing and direction if that were true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I also don't think a) they'd be allowed to have rape in a star wars game,

They threw incest into it back in the '80s, why not an allusion to rape in an obscure video game?

Originally posted by Nephthys
b) Avellone would write an allusion to rape so clumsily and poorly

Would or wouldn't? Freudian slip?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and c) Kreia wouldn't shoot Sion into the Sun immediately on her return if it was true. This is the woman who almost wiped out the Jedi Order because they said she was a bad teacher.

So hacking off her hand and beating her mercilessly is easily forgiven, but rape is that extra special line to Kreia?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, it would be an excessively poor scene in terms of pacing and direction if that were true.

Not really. The scene works just as well if you take it as meaning her abuse without adding goddamn rape into it. Its actually worse if it was supposed to convey rape in such a clumsy, ambiguous manner.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They threw incest into it back in the '80s, why not an allusion to rape in an obscure video game?

That was a mistake iirc, and totally innocent and tame. Rape is a special kind of evil.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Would or wouldn't? Freudian slip?

"I also don't think b) Avellone would write an allusion to rape so clumsily and poorly."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So hacking off her hand and beating her mercilessly is easily forgiven, but rape is that extra special line to Kreia?

Uh, yes?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. The scene works just as well if you take it as meaning her abuse without adding goddamn rape into it. Its actually worse if it was supposed to convey rape in such a clumsy, ambiguous manner.

Yes, it would have been much better had Sion pulled out a megaphone and gave us a rape play-by-play.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was a mistake iirc, and totally innocent and tame. Rape is a special kind of evil.

Incest is totally innocent and tame?

Originally posted by Nephthys
"I also don't think b) Avellone would write an allusion to rape so clumsily and poorly."

Ah, ok.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes?

You're one goofy guy, Neph.

No.

Yes.

Ha.

Rape is a special kind of evil.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...I'm pretty sure she wouldn't refer to consensual sex as an "indignity" bro. When I say torture, I'm referring to that brutal assbeating she got from Sion.
None of which actually happened. Also, why does it have to be about sex? That's something you attributed to it.

KotOR 1 tried way too hard to pull off the Original Trilogy story, I'd definitely take KotOR II, something very original in so far as Star Wars works go.

Anyway plot twists? the Revan reveal which was kind of in your face if you bothered to pay attention, is nothing compared to the Jade Empire plot twist. Now that was good Bioware story-telling.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Anyway plot twists? the Revan reveal which was kind of in your face if you bothered to pay attention, is nothing compared to the Jade Empire plot twist. Now that was good Bioware story-telling.

Holy crap, you play Jade Empire? sweet dude. Nice to see that game got some attention. I agree with you, back then Bioware knew how to tell stories.

I don't think anyone saw that coming, like WUT? the amnesia reveal doesn't even deserve the term plot-twist compared to that, I was sat there for about ten minutes just speechless to that shit.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I don't think anyone saw that coming, like WUT? the amnesia reveal doesn't even deserve the term plot-twist compared to that, I was sat there for about ten minutes just speechless to that shit.

I know right!? My mind was blown, Btw i'm sorry for nerding out on you, but i gotta ask. Did you bind the Assassin to you or did you set him free? and that scene where you return to the village and find out what ACTUALLY happened was super amazing.

Set him free, that was some brutal stuff, I never could manage to go Closed Fist very well.

Back on topic, I did actually like the Hero of Tython story but I agree with others that the whole 'you're superman' shtick got old quick.

Ranking as per my liking:

1. KoTOR - Prodigal Knight
2. SWTOR - Jedi Knight
3. KoTOR II - Jedi Exile

Comments about each:-

1. My favorite is Prodigal Knight story. It is a story of redemption with classic Star Wars feel.

2. Jedi Knight story is OK but I find it excessively long and linear. On top of this, final confrontation with Emperor have been extremely poorly done.

3. KoTOR II deviated from classic Star Wars themes and concepts and introduced utterly garbage concepts of Marvel and Dragon Ball Z Universes to Star Wars lore. I don't find the planet-munching, Force-busting and Wound creation concepts intriguing and convincing in any way of form. On top of this KoTOR II totally ruined Revan's heroic efforts to stop the Sith menace from spreading, cheapened Revan's accomplishment in the battle of Malachor V, and over-complicated the concept of Force Drain. I find Mr. Karpyshyn's treatment of Jedi Exile (nonsense) a befitting response to the mess created by Obsidian. Even Mr. Chris Avellone admitted once that if he had played KoTOR I earlier, KoTOR II would have been a vastly different project. The only positive aspect of KoTOR II is character of Darth Traya.

---

No pun intended to fans of KoTOR II lore between.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I find Mr. Karpyshyn's treatment of Jedi Exile (nonsense) a befitting response to the mess created by Obsidian.

If you think that's an appropriate action you have the mental age of a five year old.

Originally posted by Selenial
If you think that's an appropriate action you have the mental age of a five year old.

Nah, Meetra is the worst jedi ever written. I'm glad she died like a worthless loser.

Originally posted by Sinious
Nah, Meetra is the worst jedi ever written. I'm glad she died like a worthless loser.

That I can agree with. Karpyshyn's Surik was a disgrace.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ranking as per my liking:

1. KoTOR - Prodigal Knight
2. SWTOR - Jedi Knight
3. KoTOR II - Jedi Exile

Comments about each:-

1. My favorite is Prodigal Knight story. It is a story of redemption with classic Star Wars feel.

2. Jedi Knight story is OK but I find it excessively long and linear. On top of this, final confrontation with Emperor have been extremely poorly done.

3. KoTOR II deviated from classic Star Wars themes and concepts and introduced utterly garbage concepts of Marvel and Dragon Ball Z Universes to Star Wars lore. I don't find the planet-munching, Force-busting and Wound creation concepts intriguing and convincing in any way of form. On top of this KoTOR II totally ruined Revan's heroic efforts to stop the Sith menace from spreading, cheapened Revan's accomplishment in the battle of Malachor V, and over-complicated the concept of Force Drain. I find Mr. Karpyshyn's treatment of Jedi Exile (nonsense) a befitting response to the mess created by Obsidian. Even Mr. Chris Avellone admitted once that if he had played KoTOR I earlier, KoTOR II would have been a vastly different project. The only positive aspect of KoTOR II is character of Darth Traya.

---

No pun intended to fans of KoTOR II lore between.

Excellent.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Set him free, that was some brutal stuff, I never could manage to go Closed Fist very well.

Back on topic, I did actually like the Hero of Tython story but I agree with others that the whole 'you're superman' shtick got old quick.

Lol My moral compass is too damn high too and yeah, being superior to everyone kind of gets dull after a while

Originally posted by Selenial
That I can agree with. Karpyshyn's Surik was a disgrace.

Karpshyn might as well have just given a cardboard cut-out a lightsaber

Originally posted by Selenial
That I can agree with. Karpyshyn's Surik was a disgrace.



I was trying to get you mad. Damn it I should've said "The Exile"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
3. KoTOR II deviated from classic Star Wars themes and concepts and introduced utterly garbage concepts of Marvel and Dragon Ball Z Universes to Star Wars lore. I don't find the planet-munching, Force-busting and Wound creation concepts intriguing and convincing in any way of form. On top of this KoTOR II totally ruined Revan's heroic efforts to stop the Sith menace from spreading, cheapened Revan's accomplishment in the battle of Malachor V, and over-complicated the concept of Force Drain. I find Mr. Karpyshyn's treatment of Jedi Exile (nonsense) a befitting response to the mess created by Obsidian. Even Mr. Chris Avellone admitted once that if he had played KoTOR I earlier, KoTOR II would have been a vastly different project. The only positive aspect of KoTOR II is character of Darth Traya.

---

No pun intended to fans of KoTOR II lore between.

You have no comprehension of anything that happened in the game apparently:

1.KotOR II didn't introduce any of those elements, the Dark Empire series which had Lucas involvement did, but you'd know that if you had researched the production of Dark Empire.

2.Revan's efforts were exactly as described in the KotOR game, KotOR II merely expanded the same references, in-fact KotOR II gives Revan more praise than the game you play as him in.

3.Revan's accomplishment in the Battle of Malachor V was created in KotOR II, how exactly does something cheapen what it created?

4.Force Drain has been usable in such ways in both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi, series created decades before KotOR II ever released.

5.What Selenial stated.

6.Avellone also stated that LucasArts would not allow them to play the game first, but I'm sure you knew that.

If the only thing people got out of KotOR II was planet-busting and stuff like that then you are clearly blind to the statements the game was trying to make.

"Power? Do you think so, you would be wrong."

"It is an empty road to the Dark Side."

Nihilus isn't power, he is a black hole created because of the horrors of Malachor V, if you think planet busting super Dark Lord is the point of Nihilus then you weren't paying attention.

He is a raw presence, a spot in the Force that exists solely to destroy and absorb, his power is not the point, the futility of journeying down the dark path is.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.KotOR II didn't introduce any of those elements, the Dark Empire series which had Lucas involvement did, but you'd know that if you had researched the production of Dark Empire.

When was gigadrain ever used in dark empire? Nor did it introduce force wounds.

Originally posted by AncientPower
4.Force Drain has been usable in such ways in both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi, series created decades before KotOR II ever released.

Show me someone using it. And no, Exar Kun draining the Massassi is not all that similar as they were willing participants in a ritual. Ultimately, no one in the comics use it as an attack, and no one ever states it to be unblockable. I've got no problem with the basic concept of drain, but I hated how KotOR 2 presented a new version of drain that could be used on a far vaster scale and is basically Avada Kedavra.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If the only thing people got out of KotOR II was planet-busting and stuff like that then you are clearly blind to the statements the game was trying to make.

"Power? Do you think so, you would be wrong."

"It is an empty road to the Dark Side."

Nihilus isn't power, he is a black hole created because of the horrors of Malachor V, if you think planet busting super Dark Lord is the point of Nihilus then you weren't paying attention.

He is a raw presence, a spot in the Force that exists solely to destroy and absorb, his power is not the point, the futility of journeying down the dark path is.

And? I enjoy the themes behind Nihilus but making him the Star Wars equivalent of Galactus is frankly ridiculous. Admittedly, Nihilus isn't the only Sith I think that wields far too much power and I find it moronic that SWL seems fine with Vitiate while bitching about Nihilus.

Originally posted by ares834
When was gigadrain ever used in dark empire? Nor did it introduce force wounds.

Sidious freely absorbed the life force of 18 Billion beings on Byss without them knowing about it, Luke states that he felt as if his power was being siphoned by Sidious' very presence.

Luke fears that something extremely similar was left behind when Byss was destroyed.

Show me someone using it. And no, Exar Kun draining the Massassi is not all that similar as they were willing participants in a ritual. Ultimately, no one in the comics use it as an attack, and no one ever states it to be unblockable. I've got no problem with the basic concept of drain, but I hated how KotOR 2 presented a new version of drain that could be used on a far vaster scale and is basically Avada Kedavra.

Force Drain on a mass scale was introduced by Dark Empire and expanded upon in TOTJ, KotOR II merely expanded further on the most extremes of this technique.

And? I enjoy the themes behind Nihilus but making him the Star Wars equivalent of Galactus is frankly ridiculous. Admittedly, Nihilus isn't the only Sith I think that wields far too much power and I find it moronic that SWL seems fine with Vitiate while bitching about Nihilus.

It is not ridiculous, are we forgetting one of the most iconic lines from the OT? "The ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the Force."
Nihilus was not the first and in-fact represents something far more than Sith that can nom planets, but that the entire path to ultimate power always ends the same way, an empty road to the Dark Side.

Sidious was going to do something similar to increase his power, Vitiate is well-known to want to absorb all life in the galaxy.

This is a pattern, Nihilus is just one dot.

Giga-Drain more like an extreme Force Sever, not Force Drain, honestly.

I have to admit, the best thing about the Knight story was the companions. They were some of the best written companions in the game, bar Doc. Scourge was pretty meh I guess, too. But the others?

Kira was raised as a Sith from birth, she's struggling constantly to become something she was always trained not to be, and she can't hide the fact that a lot of her inner thoughts are dark and disturbing.

T7's seen some horrible things, he's always wanted to find a life without battle and without the constant fear of loosing a Master, as all he remembers is Death, only to get shoved into a crew who are basically on a suicide Mission.

And Rusk, he saw all of his friends killed, was tortured, and has turned into one of the most disturbing people in the game. He has no regard for life in the slightest, which actually makes him an exemplary soldier. He no longer is willing to gain any sort of attachments to people, and even yearns for his own death. He actually wanted to face the Emperor because, and I quote "The chances of me surviving an encounter with the Emperor are almost 0"... He actually wants it ended.

They've got nothing on the Kotor 2 crew, but those companions are the reason I find it a close 2nd to Kotor.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious freely absorbed the life force of 18 Billion beings on Byss without them knowing about it, Luke states that he felt as if his power was being siphoned by Sidious' very presence.

Luke fears that something extremely similar was left behind when Byss was destroyed.

And yet, the drain is quite different than how it is presented in KotOR II. It's slow and never utilized as an unblockable attack.

Also I'm not inclined to believe Byss is a wound. A dark side nexus, sure, but a place that sucks up force energy eh...

Originally posted by AncientPower
Force Drain on a mass scale was introduced by Dark Empire and expanded upon in TOTJ, KotOR II merely expanded further on the most extremes of this technique.

And therin lies the problem. I can't speak for SWL, but I'm fine with how drain was in those stories but hated how KotOR II presented gigadrain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It is not ridiculous, are we forgetting one of the most iconic lines from the OT? "The ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the Force."

A complete misinterpretation of that line. We see in ANH that all the Death Star's power is insignificant against the force when Luke uses it to guide him in destroying the Death Star. Or another example in the movie would be how Sidious used the force to help him conquer the galaxy. That is what Vader is talking about. Not the ability for Sith/Jedi to fly around nuing planets with force energy.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus was not the first and in-fact represents something far more than Sith that can nom planets, but that the entire path to ultimate power always ends the same way, an empty road to the Dark Side.

Sidious was going to do something similar to increase his power, Vitiate is well-known to want to absorb all life in the galaxy.

This is a pattern, Nihilus is just one dot.

Yes. And like I said I'm not a fan of any of these characters being as powerful as they are.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually your responses indicate that you have yet to mature in life. Seriously, your obsession with your favorite fictional characters to this much extent that you cannot digest any kind of criticism of such characters, is absolutely unhealthy. Get some therapy.
I... I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Suffice it to say, Seleniel simply wanted you to understand "the ground realities" of one of her favorite characters.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I... I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Suffice it to say, Seleniel simply wanted you to understand "the ground realities" of one of her favorite characters.
She could so without insulting me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She could so without insulting me.
Yes indeed. I'm merely saying that calling her out on her rudeness is something that is well within your rights to do, but calling her out on fixating over a character isn't exactly something you can convincingly do here.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I... I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Suffice it to say, Seleniel simply wanted you to understand "the ground realities" of one of her favorite characters.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes indeed. I'm merely saying that calling her out on her rudeness is something that is well within your rights to do, but calling her out on fixating over a character isn't exactly something you can convincingly do here.
I don't insult others for criticizing my favorite characters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually your responses indicate that you have yet to mature in life. Seriously, your obsession with your favorite fictional characters to this much extent that you cannot digest any kind of criticism of such characters, is absolutely unhealthy. Get some therapy.

On the contrary, Mr. Karpyshyn made the correct decision to portray a "recovered" Jedi Exile. The Wound philosophy didn't sat well with lore on the whole.


Let me simplify this to something you'd understand.

A 5 year old child is in class. Let's call him, Avellone. Avellone and Karpyshyn have their hands up to answer a question. Avellone is chosen, and gives an answer different to that Karpyshyn would have done. Avellone gets it right. Karpyshyn then steals Avellone's book whilst his friends pin him down, and write "George" (the name of their teacher) "loves penis and I want to give it to him" 1000 times in it, and hands it in as homework.

You think that's an emotionally stable thing to do? Be so jealous that the higher ups gave someone else a shot that you then ruin the things they've worked hard to create?

You are an imbecile.

I also find this a little too ironic, you have to be trolling me here... (Just a note, you're not criticizing my favorite character, even if you were directing this at a character, which you're not)

And Force wounds have existed in lore since 1992, but I wouldn't expect you to know since that's a solid 14 years before you were born. And ofc, well outside of your knowledge base, since it has nothing to do with Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't insult others for criticizing my favorite characters.
And you are well within your rights to call her out on that.

I was merely saying that accusing her of being obsessed with a character, and saying that it's a problem she has, may just be a little... and I hesitate to use the word, hypocritical...?

I'm liking where this thread is going. A much better story than all three, imo.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And you are well within your rights to call her out on that.

I was merely saying that accusing her of being obsessed with a character, and saying that it's a problem she has, may just be a little... and I hesitate to use the word, hypocritical...?
I suppose that you have not understood my point yet.

I know that fellow member Selenial is a fan of Jedi Exile character. (Acceptable)

However, she reacted to criticism of her favorite character from me by outright insulting me. (Not acceptable) -> This is the sign of unhealthy obsession on her part.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I suppose that you have not understood my point yet.

I know that fellow member Selenial is a fan of Jedi Exile character. (Acceptable)

However, she reacted to criticism of her favorite character by outright insulting me. (Not acceptable) -> This is the sign of unhealthy obsession on her part.



You're going to have to spell it out, DMB.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm liking where this thread is going. A much better story than all three, imo.

Originally posted by Selenial
Let me simplify this to something you'd understand.

A 5 year old child is in class. Let's call him, Avellone. Avellone and Karpyshyn have their hands up to answer a question. Avellone is chosen, and gives an answer different to that Karpyshyn would have done. Avellone gets it right. Karpyshyn then steals Avellone's book whilst his friends pin him down, and write "George" (the name of their teacher) "loves penis and I want to give it to him" 1000 times in it, and hands it in as homework.

You think that's an emotionally stable thing to do? Be so jealous that the higher ups gave someone else a shot that you then ruin the things they've worked hard to create?

You are an imbecile.
You don't like treatment of Mr. Karpyshyn to Jedi Exile. Fine.

However, don't insult others for having a different opinion in this respect.

Originally posted by Selenial
I also find this a little too ironic, you have to be trolling me here... (Just a note, you're not criticizing my favorite character, even if you were directing this at a character, which you're not)
I am not trolling you here and neither I have interest in doing so. I presented my opinion and you jumped in by insulting me. You are the culprit here. Don't throw this on me.

Originally posted by Selenial
And Force wounds have existed in lore since 1992, but I wouldn't expect you to know since that's a solid 14 years before you were born. And ofc, well outside of your knowledge base, since it has nothing to do with Vitiate.
And the source of your information is?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I am trolling you here and neither I have interest for doing so. I presented my opinion and you jumped in by insulting me. You are the culprit here. Don't throw this on me.
This sentence makes no sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And the source of your information is?

Dark Empire

Originally posted by Selenial
This sentence makes no sense.
I fixed it. Have some patience before responding.

Originally posted by Selenial
Dark Empire
Exact revelation will be appreciated.

Originally posted by Selenial
And Force wounds have existed in lore since 1992, but I wouldn't expect you to know since that's a solid 14 years before you were born. And ofc, well outside of your knowledge base, since it has nothing to do with Vitiate.

No they haven't. After KotOR II things may have been retroactively identified as wounds, but KotOR II was the first to create the concept.

Originally posted by Selenial
This sentence makes no sense.
LMFAO!!!!!

Originally posted by Selenial
Dark Empire

Scan please?

Originally posted by ares834
No they haven't. After KotOR II things may have been retroactively identified as wounds, but KotOR II was the first to create the concept.

Perhaps, perhaps not. They were never specifically called Force Wounds but they were implied as having the same effects...

Originally posted by ares834
Scan please?

No offence, but can you not just go read it? It's been a while since I've read it, and it's like 350 pages to look through just to find a scan.

It was referenced earlier in the thread, ask AP.

Originally posted by Selenial
Perhaps, perhaps not. They were never specifically called Force Wounds but they were implied as having the same effects...

Scans?

Originally posted by Selenial
No offence, but can you not just go read it? It's been a while since I've read it, and it's like 350 pages to look through just to find a scan.

It was referenced earlier in the thread, ask AP.

If you make a claim it's your job to provide the proof. I'm not going to look through a source for a claim you made simply because you are too lazy.

Originally posted by ares834
If you make a claim it's your job to provide the proof. I'm not going to look through a source for a claim you made simply because you are too lazy.

I'm too lazy to re-read 350 pages instead of you just reading a comic that you can pirate from like 300 sources, for the first time? mmk.

It's not my burden to provide knowledge, simply because you've never read the source...

Originally posted by ares834
No they haven't. After KotOR II things may have been retroactively identified as wounds, but KotOR II was the first to create the concept.


Nicely put.

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm too lazy to re-read 350 pages instead of you just reading a comic that you can pirate from like 300 sources, for the first time? mmk.

It's not my burden to provide knowledge, simply because you've never read the source...

WTF are you on about? I have read the comic before. With that said even had I not, it is your job to provide proof for your arguments not mine. That always how it has been.

Originally posted by ares834
WTF are you on about? I have read the comic before. With that said even had I not, it is your job to provide proof for your arguments not mine. That always how it has been.

This seriously makes no sense to me. You have read the source, you have it readily available. You're the one wishing to know the information, not me. Your time is no more valuable than mine.

I have nothing more to say on this topic, nor do I wish to continue debating philosophies of Video Games with children who will never change their mind, so why on earth should I waste hours of my time trying to appease you?

Because you made the claim? I really don't get how you are unable to grasp this concept. This is how all debates (not merely vs ones) work. When someone provides a claim they have to present proof.

But continue to throw insults around instead of providing proof. Maybe you will actually be able to convince a few people that you are in the right.

This isn't a debate, so it's no big deal if she doesn't feel like working her ass off just to appease you. Who even cares if Avellone or someone else made up the concept anyway.

It is a debate. In this case where does the concept of force wound arise from.

Force wounds as they were described in KOTOR 2 seemed to be equivalent to Dark side Nexuses. Malachor was the greatest, but Traya alluded to other established Dark Nexuses in the same manner when lecturing the Masters. Not to mention that all characteristics of Malachor are shared by the traditional Dark side Nexus. It makes sense.

This is supported by Karpyshyn when he laced out the differences between Malachor and Nathema.

As for wounds in sentinent beings, that's where it diverges from the rest of the mythos. Was really just a load of BS

The party can sense the other DS nexus in game. You can't sense the Force in Force Wounds.

Please give examples?

In some cases Dark Side Nexus's have been used to hide the signatures of lightsiders.

Korriban. Nadd's tomb. Both come to mind. And it's not just the Light Side. You can't sense the Force period in a Wound.

"You were correct, Kavar. When she was here I felt it. It was as if she was not there, more like an echo."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Korriban. Nadd's tomb. Both come to mind. And it's not just the Light Side. You can't sense the Force period in a Wound.

I meant examples of them not being able to feel the Force on a wound.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I meant examples of them not being able to feel the Force on a wound.
In a Wound. Not on a Wound. Considering Malachor is the only Wound planet, I'm not sure what you were expecting. Either way, the Jedi Council said that Malachor felt empty as well, if that's what you're looking for. Malachor and the Exile are supposed to be the same, that's a major theme of the game.

Well looks like Bioware ruined Revan's story. Good job, I guess they've shat the bed on every front now, huh?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well looks like Bioware ruined Revan's story. Good job, I guess they've shat the bed on every front now, huh?

lol, not every front, they still need to screw up the protags.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well looks like Bioware ruined Revan's story. Good job, I guess they've shat the bed on every front now, huh?

Bioware sure loves kicking us when we are down....

I tend to separate the TOR and KOTOR storylines.

Originally posted by NTJack0
I tend to separate the TOR and KOTOR storylines.

Gideon's gonna love this but I no longer care about Revan's character. Thanks bioware!

I have a small hope still that the devs were trolling.