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Is it possible to perfect SS3 in the same type of way that Gohan and Goku perfected their regular SS forms while in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Could Goku, for example, master SS3 to such a degree that it no longer required any effort to maintain?

I suppose so. Super saiyan wasn't always perfect either.

Goku had enough time to perfect it and never did, I doubt it.

Not if he's alive.

Even in death, it can't be. Its a always going to be imperfect.

Can't be sure when he achieved it though. He really may not have had enough time before he came back to Earth.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Can't be sure when he achieved it though. He really may not have had enough time before he came back to Earth.

SSJ3 has just never gotten the job done imo.

Janemba Fail
Buu Fail
Bills Fail.

The transformation is just to much, draws to much energy. In death sure he can sustain it longer, but still it drains him. Janemba fight proved that.

Then he fights bills and he can't even touch him and its been how long he had to improve the form.

Its incomplete.

Yes, he can.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yes, he can.

When, its never been done with all the time he has had. He has God mode now which is way better.

From what do we know it hasn't been at least nearly perfected?

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Is it possible to perfect SS3 in the same type of way that Gohan and Goku perfected their regular SS forms while in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Could Goku, for example, master SS3 to such a degree that it no longer required any effort to maintain? Hm, I don't think so. Goku explicitly stated: "Super Saiyan 3 is ONLY supposed to be used in the afterlife. It uses too much energy for this world of time. You get instantly worn out!" And with the exception of BoG, wherein he was only a SSJ3 for like a minute-or-two total, every time Goku has used that transformation in battle, its 'drain-you' factor has been clearly noted--even in the GT era. That said, I tend to think of SSJ3 as a proverbial wild horse that just can't be broken, and it seems like Goku has come to terms with this. So IF he chooses to use the form, he knows going in that he HAS to get the job done QUICK, otherwise he's f*cked...And powerless.

Aside from that, SSJ3 has always seemed like a total waste of a transformation; completely impractical. Sure, it gives you a huge amp for a few minutes--but the tradeoff is completely taxing your power reserves. /shrug

Half-half after some reading. SS3 is meant to drain their physical stamina to amp their Ki, so from that we could assume that he has already achieved a high control of this state. However he already seems to be able to jump into it without that build up. And on that note, the answer to this seems to be gaining a greater physical stamina, right? How would things be if he spent a year focused on increasing his stamina?

Some evidence lies in our non-canon GT. Kid Goku was taking the punishment from SS3 far hasrsher then he used to, obviously due to his state. But once he regained his tail he lasted far longer than without, going from (on-screen) running out with 1 minute usage to over 3 mins before being forcible knocked out of the state with a far more intense fight, meaning he could have gone further. Not canon but its similar to the stamina point above.


I believe that while the form itself is designed to be a quick use form, what with the forcible draining, there should still be methods to counter. Whether its reducing the amount it drains, like Goku and Gohan did while staying in their S1 state to get used to it, or gaining a greater stamina for this purpose.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, I don't think so. Goku explicitly stated: "Super Saiyan 3 is ONLY supposed to be used in the afterlife. It uses too much energy for this world of time. You get instantly worn out!" And with the exception of BoG, wherein he was only a SSJ3 for like a minute-or-two total, every time Goku has used that transformation in battle, its 'drain-you' factor has been clearly noted--even in the GT era. That said, I tend to think of SSJ3 as a proverbial wild horse that just can't be broken, and it seems like Goku has come to terms with this. So IF he chooses to use the form, he knows going in that he HAS to get the job done QUICK, otherwise he's f*cked...And powerless.

Aside from that, SSJ3 has always seemed like a total waste of a transformation; completely impractical. Sure, it gives you a huge amp for a few minutes--but the tradeoff is completely taxing your power reserves. /shrug

Always beyond reproach you are.

Thumbs up.

The thing you have to remember is that SSJ3 is unlike any other transformation/powerup throughout the entire DBZ mythos, when it comes to the physical toll it takes on its user. This is evident by the fact that it is only sustainable for any decent length of time in the afterlife--ie. when the stamina limitations of your physical/living form aren't really present.

NO other Saiyan transformation is as taxing on its user as SSJ3--not even close, in fact. Because of that, you can't really use, say, Goku mastering SSJ1 as a measuring stick for him potentially mastering SSJ3, because even as a n00b SSJ1, Goku still never had any issues maintaining that transformation for extended periods of time--even when he first transformed against Frieza. Whenever he goes SSJ3, however, his power is almost completely drained within just a few minutes, thus rendering the form unsustainable.

Long story short: I really can't see Goku overcoming the stamina limitations of a SSJ3. It seems like that's just part of the transformation no matter what you do. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
The thing you have to remember is that SSJ3 is unlike any other transformation/powerup throughout the entire DBZ mythos, when it comes to the physical toll it takes on its user. This is evident by the fact that it is only sustainable for any decent length of time in the afterlife--ie. when the stamina limitations of your physical/living form aren't really present.

NO other Saiyan transformation is as taxing on its user as SSJ3--not even close, in fact. Because of that, you can't really use, say, Goku mastering SSJ1 as a measuring stick for him potentially mastering SSJ3, because even as a n00b SSJ1, Goku still never had any issues maintaining that transformation for extended periods of time--even when he first transformed against Frieza. Whenever he goes SSJ3, however, his power is almost completely drained within just a few minutes, thus rendering the form unsustainable.

Long story short: I really can't see Goku overcoming the stamina limitations of a SSJ3. It seems like that's just part of the transformation no matter what you do. /shrug

Why is it that the afterlife body can maintain the form but the mortal body cannot?

The Funimation translation states that this is due to the mortal body draining energy twice as fast in the SSJ3 state so he is draining it faster than he can gather it (this is not canon: only the English dub version). That makes sense, of course. But it is not canon.

The only way I could possible seeing it being perfected is 2 years in the time chamber with extreme exposure high intensity training sparring with at least 2 as strong or stronger then him and unlimited sensu beans for them all.

Each session would have to last 3-4 minutes of hard hard training going all out as Goku is going to be trying to go all out. He would have to be giving it his all for each training session and going down into base form, taking a few sensu and starting back up.

Doing this over and over and hard core training might work. However I doubt we will ever get to see this as they have moved him into God mode which blows SS3 out of the water in speed, power, strength, and energy.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why is it that the afterlife body can maintain the form but the mortal body cannot?

The Funimation translation states that this is due to the mortal body draining energy twice as fast in the SSJ3 state so he is draining it faster than he can gather it (this is not canon: only the English dub version). That makes sense, of course. But it is not canon. No real particulars were given in the manga, from what I can recall. It was just stated that a mortal/living body doesn't possess the same stamina and power-storing capacity as an immortal/dead body.

srug

Originally posted by Galan007
immortal/dead body. Sorry, 'ageless' is the better nomenclature. Beings in DBZ's afterlife are not immortal in the literal sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Aside from that, SSJ3 has always seemed like a total waste of a transformation; completely impractical. Sure, it gives you a huge amp for a few minutes--but the tradeoff is completely taxing your power reserves. /shrug

Gotenks does fine.

SSJ3 ****s up his fusion I think. Like shortens it.

Originally posted by Damborgson
SSJ3 ****s up his fusion I think. Like shortens it. It does... And significantly so.

He's also... A fusion. none

SSJ3 doesn't take away from Gotenks' stamina though like it does with Goku, which I think is what Bentley was getting at.

But the fusion time being shortened was but another convenient plot device to continue dragging out the Buu saga, yeah.

SS3 has shorted fusion, and shortened Goku's time on earth, and shortens his stamina a lot. All boils down to the same problem. Excessive power drain.

True, and I guess the only reason it doesn't drain Gotenks' energy/stamina is because he's a fusion, not necessarily because of some difference in power level between him and Goku.

In the hyperbolic time chamber years passed by and goku was able to perfect ssj1 why wouldnt he be able to perfect ssj3 only thing he would need is time. How thought is uncertain

Well based on the above Toriyama statement post-BotG, seems SSJ2 and 3 will become obsolete for Goku anyway, like Kaioken did before them.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Well based on the above Toriyama statement post-BotG, seems SSJ2 and 3 will become obsolete for Goku anyway, like Kaioken did before them.


Thats true he did say that

SS3 is completely obsolete as of now with SSGM.

People really liked the long blonde hair I guess

I don't see the problem with SS2 though, regarding that statement. It amps what is already formed from SS1 without any drawbacks that we've ever seen. Even if it does actually draw more strength, it would be so minor it wouldn't really matter.

Originally posted by BloodRain
I don't see the problem with SS2 though, regarding that statement. It amps what is already formed from SS1 without any drawbacks that we've ever seen. Even if it does actually draw more strength, it would be so minor it wouldn't really matter.

SS2 is a perfect transformation. SS3 is heavily flawed. It drained more power then SS4 and was not anywhere as powerful.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Well based on the above Toriyama statement post-BotG, seems SSJ2 and 3 will become obsolete for Goku anyway, like Kaioken did before them. We already knew SSJ3 became obsolete with the introduction of SSJG. That isn't what the OP is asking, though.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
The only way I could possible seeing it being perfected is 2 years in the time chamber with extreme exposure high intensity training sparring with at least 2 as strong or stronger then him and unlimited sensu beans for them all.

Each session would have to last 3-4 minutes of hard hard training going all out as Goku is going to be trying to go all out. He would have to be giving it his all for each training session and going down into base form, taking a few sensu and starting back up.

Doing this over and over and hard core training might work. However I doubt we will ever get to see this as they have moved him into God mode which blows SS3 out of the water in speed, power, strength, and energy.

Galan what do you think about this?

I still don't see it working. I think taxing its user's stamina and power reverves is just what SSJ3 does inherently--that's why it's not meant to be used in the living world, as Goku noted.

Yea so then I guess its flawed no matter what.

Originally posted by Galan007
I still don't see it working. I think taxing its user's stamina and power reverves is just what SSJ3 does inherently--that's why it's not meant to be used in the living world, as Goku noted.

Theoretically how long could he stay in SS3 in the after life? Maybe he can only use it there for extended periods of times because that is where he learned it.

Where the manga is concerned, it was never stated how long he could maintain SSJ3 in the afterlife. After all, the only time we've seen Goku go SSJ3 while he was legitimately dead was in Movie #12 when he fought Janemba in other world... And not only did he have an extended battle with Janemba, wherein he appeared to be going all-out, but he also never stated that SSJ3 was draining him at some absurd rate.

...But that's not exactly canon, either. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Where the manga is concerned, it was never stated how long he could maintain SSJ3 in the afterlife. After all, the only time we've seen Goku go SSJ3 while he was legitimately dead was in Movie #12 when he fought Janemba in other world... And not only did he have an extended battle with Janemba, wherein he appeared to be going all-out, but he also never stated that SSJ3 was draining him at some absurd rate.

...But that's not exactly canon, either. /shrug

Well the lets just go by showings as such weather cannon or non cannon.

It appears he can hold it indef in afterlife without trouble.

On earth, he is up shit creek

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Is it possible to perfect SS3 in the same type of way that Gohan and Goku perfected their regular SS forms while in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Could Goku, for example, master SS3 to such a degree that it no longer required any effort to maintain?

The only way I see it being "perfected" is by Broly. If his power perpetually increases like it did in his first movie, or the way Dragon Ball Multiverse has him doing it, it could theoretically counter the drain and keep him in the form.

Originally posted by juggerman
The only way I see it being "perfected" is by Broly. If his power perpetually increases like it did in his first movie, or the way Dragon Ball Multiverse has him doing it, it could theoretically counter the drain and keep him in the form.

Ooooooo....nice thought. He is non-canon, however. :'(


If the drain from SSJ3 is less than the power-increase he experiences, he would still have to "drain" some of his power to keep from self-destructing. If the drain from SSJ3 is greater than his power-increase, then the technique would not succeed. Likely, it is not exactly equal. From my estimate, the drain appears to be greater than Broly's power-creep. Basically, I think Broly would be able to hold the transformation for quite a long time but he would eventually run out of power. We could compare it to the un-perfected SSJ1 transformation: they can hold it for quite some time but they eventually drain themselves.


Originally posted by Galan007
Where the manga is concerned, it was never stated how long he could maintain SSJ3 in the afterlife. After all, the only time we've seen Goku go SSJ3 while he was legitimately dead was in Movie #12 when he fought Janemba in other world... And not only did he have an extended battle with Janemba, wherein he appeared to be going all-out, but he also never stated that SSJ3 was draining him at some absurd rate.

...But that's not exactly canon, either. /shrug


Galan, I really do think we should put together a Dragonball-con and have you as one of the speakers. It would be a session where you chose like 5 topics to discuss with a panel of DB experts. I'd watch that.

Originally posted by juggerman
The only way I see it being "perfected" is by Broly. If his power perpetually increases like it did in his first movie, or the way Dragon Ball Multiverse has him doing it, it could theoretically counter the drain and keep him in the form. Hmm. This is an interesting theory, but it only works if we assume that Broly's LSSJ transformation extends into higher levels of Super Saiyan--which there is obviously no evidence to support. However, even if we put all logic aside, and assume Broly is capable of reaching 'LSSJ3', I still don't think he could overcome the massive toll it takes on its user's ki/stamina--let alone master/perfect it. Why? Because I, for one, take Goku's statement about the form's 'drain-you' factor very literally:
http://i.imgur.com/BQObIvP.gif

...Especially when we consider that in the wake of Goku's SSJ3 battles with Fat and Kid Buu, he was left almost completely powerless afterward, despite only using the form for a few minutes each time AND never even using its full power.

So IF we assume Broly would still have energy to spare upon reaching this theoretical 'LSSJ3', then he may be able to cope with the form's stamina-rigors a bit better than Goku(*might* being the key word), but I still don't think him capable of producing energy faster than the form metabolizes it. Thus I believe it would still drain him... And rapidly so.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Galan, I really do think we should put together a Dragonball-con and have you as one of the speakers. It would be a session where you chose like 5 topics to discuss with a panel of DB experts. I'd watch that. Heh, it would be fun to just go to something like that. Participating on any level would be effing awesome.

http://i.imgur.com/fV89hTg.jpg

hahaha

Btw, if we go GT, Goku can use SSJ3 for some time there... but *that's* when he's at a point where he's noticeably above Perfect Cell in base mode, so he simply has power to burn.

IIRC, we only saw Goku use SSJ3 in GT in his kid form against Baby Vegeta, and he wasn't even able to sustain the form as long as he did against Kid Buu when he was still an adult.

^ Yeah, Goku distinctly commented that his kid-form was no good for sustaining SSJ3. So even though he was several orders of magnitude MORE powerful in GT than he was in Z, the inherent weakness of SSJ3 was still recognized.

Until his tail popped back.

Yep. The tail was haxx.

In the original manga, USSJ and USSJ2 are referred to as Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 respectively, and Super Saiyan 2 is referred to as Super Saiyan Grade 4 and Super Saiyan 3 is referred to as Super Saiyan Grade 5.

What interesting here is that Full-power Super Saiyan isn't a variation of the Super Saiyan form in the same sense.

My theory is that all Grades come with a drawback; the drawback of Grade 2 and 3 is speed, and the drawback of Grade 4 and 5 is ki drain.

So no, I don't think it can be perfected.

^ That doesn't factor in FPSSJ, though, which didn't sacrifice speed for power. Additionally, SSJ2 really had no drawbacks to speak of--it doubled a SSJ's speed/power, and was sustainable for great lengths of time. T'was honestly a near-perfect transformation, imo.

SSJ3 was completely unique in the absurd rate at which it drained ki. No other form of Super Saiyan comes remotely close to it in that regard. Tbh, I doubt Goku could have even reached SSJ3 with a living body--hence his comment that the form simply isn't supposed to be used anywhere but the afterlife.

That said, SSJ3 certainly gleaned a massive...dare I say "Other Worldly"...increase in power(short-lived as it was.) By the time of the Buu saga, a 4x boost was astronomical.

As a USSJ Vegeta didn't seem particularly slow when he was beating Cell to a pulp, it's first when Trunks went USSJ2 that the sacrifice in speed became evident.

Similarly SSJ3 is where the energy drain became evident.

That said, I don't see the FPSSJ as a separate form from SSJ in the same sense that USSJ or SSJ2 were separate forms.

I disagree with a few of those points. ASSJ and USSJ(or 2nd and 3rd Grade Super Saiyans, as you're referring to them) are essentially forcing the power output of the initial SSJ transformation, and thus are not actual transformations themselves. In layman's terms: it's just a normal Super Saiyan who has powered up a lot. That's why Cell noted that the change to USSJ was "easy" to attain:
http://i.imgur.com/WTz55g6.gif
http://i.imgur.com/ByPx0Ct.jpg

And you're right: Vegeta didn't allow his speed to become diminished when he fought Cell, but that's because he never powered up beyond ASSJ(2nd Grade SSJ.) Experience told him that USSJ(3rd Grade SSJ) was a pointless transformation due to the excess musculature that came with it. Conversely, in Trunks' ignorance he powered up to an USSJ without thinking twice, which gleaned him great power, but slowed him down so significantly that he was all but useless in a fight. ASSJ>USSJ.

But yeah, as far as 'power-ups' go, USSJ was the worst by far, and literally had no in-battle benefits at all. At least SSJ3 made Goku a LOT faster/stronger for a brief period of time... It just left him nearly powerless afterward.

IIRC both ASSJ and USSJ also had a more significant power drain than the base form, just not to near the same extent as the later SSJ3. USSJ double-whammied wasting power with being slow as Hell (I like to think it was the density of form's ki in their body and the newfound inflexibility of its user's bodies that slowed USSJ, and not something dumb like just being too big to be fast).

Neither of those are separate forms from the SSJ, they're just focused on putting out big power in a small amount of time without any focus on efficiency. FSSJ was so good because it mastered the original SSJ form, and by making it so much easier to control Goku and Gohan could put out far more energy without the strain ASSJ and USSJ had. Like how a vagina needs to get wet before it can take a cucumber.

Originally posted by NemeBro
IIRC both ASSJ and USSJ also had a more significant power drain than the base form, just not to near the same extent as the later SSJ3. USSJ double-whammied wasting power with being slow as Hell (I like to think it was the density of form's ki in their body and the newfound inflexibility of its user's bodies that slowed USSJ, and not something dumb like just being too big to be fast).

Neither of those are separate forms from the SSJ, they're just focused on putting out big power in a small amount of time without any focus on efficiency. FSSJ was so good because it mastered the original SSJ form, and by making it so much easier to control Goku and Gohan could put out far more energy without the strain ASSJ and USSJ had. Like how a vagina needs to get wet before it can take a cucumber. If the vagina is a pussy, maybe. awesome

Originally posted by NemeBro
IIRC both ASSJ and USSJ also had a more significant power drain than the base form, just not to near the same extent as the later SSJ3. USSJ double-whammied wasting power with being slow as Hell (I like to think it was the density of form's ki in their body and the newfound inflexibility of its user's bodies that slowed USSJ, and not something dumb like just being too big to be fast). It wasn't stated how much faster ASSJ/USSJ drained the user's ki, but it mustn't have been too terribly significant considering ASSJ Vegeta and USSJ Trunks each had an extended fight with Cell w/o being drained afterward(from the rigors of the form(s), that is)... Vegeta was still able to maintain ASSJ even AFTER his lengthy battle with Cell, and even AFTER releasing his all-out 'Big Bang Attack', for example. /shrug

The ki-strain was definitely more intense with those stages, however.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Neither of those are separate forms from the SSJ, they're just focused on putting out big power in a small amount of time without any focus on efficiency. FSSJ was so good because it mastered the original SSJ form, and by making it so much easier to control Goku and Gohan could put out far more energy without the strain ASSJ and USSJ had.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Like how a vagina needs to get wet before it can take a cucumber. That's what spit is for, bruh.

The Dragon Ball wiki says that both forms do indeed strain the user's Ki more than the base SSJ form does, but the cocksuckers didn't cite their source.

It definitely isn't as big a drain as SSJ3 though, yeah.

Originally posted by Galan007

But yeah, as far as 'power-ups' go, USSJ was the worst by far, and literally had no in-battle benefits at all. At least SSJ3 made Goku a LOT faster/stronger for a brief period of time... It just left him nearly powerless afterward.


I liked the Dragonball Multiverse comic, where Trunks learned to rapidly switch to and from USSJ, so he'd *move around* at ASSJ level, but then when he was in a position where he could hit without worrying about the opponent dodging, or in a beam-of-war situation, he'd go USSJ for more power.


It has some definite tactical uses, and in a multi-way fight it'd make a lot of sense to use (I mean, consider how the Raditz fight showed in a 2v1 situation, a move that required someone to stand around for a whole minute could be decisive!). It's just poor in a solo fight.

USSJ's only tactical use from the Cell saga onward would be IF your opponent just stood there and allowed you to hit and/or blast them. Aside from that, it was too slow to be of any use. Enormous power, though.

I do like that DBM concept, though.

I don't know, I feel like if I wanted to lift a cliffside and didn't have access to SSJ2, USSJ would be a good form to have.

...Or if you just wanted to intimidate the phuck out of someone.

Originally posted by Galan007
USSJ's only tactical use from the Cell saga onward would be IF your opponent just stood there and allowed you to hit and/or blast them. Aside from that, it was too slow to be of any use. Enormous power, though.

There are ways to make that happen, though.

Solar flare, for example. Or have an ally in ASSJ or similar hold them while you punch and work them over.

Still situational, but worth having.


Heck, the end-of-saga beam of war, when everyone was shooting Cell in the back? USSJ then.

Originally posted by Q99
Heck, the end-of-saga beam of war, when everyone was shooting Cell in the back? USSJ then. True. Hell, a blind-sided USSJ attack could have really phucked Cell up, I'd wager.

Galan how much stronger is SS3 Goku in Buu Saga vs SS2 Gohan in Cell saga? Could he hold is own in a fight against SS3 Goku?

Um, no.

A SSJ3 is 4x> a SSJ2. That is to say: a Saiyan's power is quadrupled when they transform from SSJ2 to SSJ3. Furthermore, Majin Vegeta noted that SSJ2 Goku was "stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell":
http://i.imgur.com/GBEYpyI.gif
ie. SSJ3 Goku(4x)>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan(Cell-era)

Originally posted by Galan007
Um, no.

A SSJ3 is 4x> a SSJ2. That is to say: a Saiyan's power is quadrupled when they transform from SSJ2 to SSJ3. Furthermore, Majin Vegeta noted that SSJ2 Goku was "stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell":
http://i.imgur.com/GBEYpyI.gif
ie. SSJ3 Goku(4x)>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan(Cell-era)

Ah k that makes sense, just wondering, you the master of multipliers.

So he gets one shotted

Thanks

Originally posted by Galan007
True. Hell, a blind-sided USSJ attack could have really phucked Cell up, I'd wager.

The Z fighters are too quick to discard options that are merely limited. Probably due to the fact they do mostly think in terms of one on one fights.


Which is also likely why Krillin has some of the best techniques- he's one of the only ones who doesn't necessarily think in those terms.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Ah k that makes sense, just wondering, you the master of multipliers.

So he gets one shotted

Thanks

Galan is the bomb. The spirit bomb.

Hm, interesting that SSJ4 is another 'drains energy/time limit' one, but with a superior timeline to 3.

So in GT, SSJ3 is obsolete by that, but there'd still be a reason to improve on 4.

^ True, but it still takes a long time for SSJ4 to tax its user. That said, I think it would be fairly easy to master SSJ4.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, interesting that SSJ4 is another 'drains energy/time limit' one, but with a superior timeline to 3.

So in GT, SSJ3 is obsolete by that, but there'd still be a reason to improve on 4.

The drain was so insignificant it can also be not called a drain at all. Also to note, that damn kid goku prolly didn't help by being as a kid for his base form. Like the time he forgot how to use instant transmission before the world was gonna blow up and piccolo forced him too remember how.

I didn't get that part at all. He could remember how to change into SS and use kamehama, but forget instant transmission..what a blunder.

K another question about SS3...

I understand that it is 4X more powerful then SS2, but is that the multiplier for a fully powered SS3 (which we never saw), or is that the multiplier for when Goku initially transforms into a SS3 (but before he tries to fully powerup)?

If we take the fully powering up thing as him needing to create a large enough ki reserve/stamina in order to do anything, and not gaining more strength, then it would be a solid 4 for both.

You become a SSJ, and *poof*, you're automatically 50x>base. You become a SSJ2, and *poof*, you're automatically 2x>SSJ. So I can only assume that if you become a SSJ3, *poof*, you're automatically 4x>SSJ2. Fully powering up as a SSJ3(like Goku tried to do against Kid Buu, for example) logically would have just built upon the already present 4x multiplier. Like you said, though: we never got to see a full-power/all-out SSJ3, unfortunately.

Helping solidify the notion that SSJ3 Goku was 4x>SSJ2 when he initially transformed is the fact that everyone was utterly awestruck at his power, even though they'd just experienced his SSJ2-level power moments beforehand. There's also the fact that an extended battle with Vegeta as a SSJ2 didn't shorten his time on earth at all, whereas sustaining SSJ3 for just a few minutes almost completely depleted his remaining time. /shrug

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Well based on the above Toriyama statement post-BotG, seems SSJ2 and 3 will become obsolete for Goku anyway, like Kaioken did before them.

I think his SSJ1 form post-BoG will be as strong as or stronger than SSJ3 form in the future.

Akira said that there are "gods" stronger than Beers and Whis, so expect new levels of Saiyan power to come in the future, especially now that AT has returned to continue the saga.