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http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith



Alright, lets see who was saying that Sidious was toying ???

facepalm

First, he said Savage, not Maul, put up a better fight than the Jedi High Council.

Second, that's because Palpatine "unleashed his full fury" against the lesser Jedi Masters (The New Essential Chronology), he wasn't toying with them.

Third, I've literally been through this dozens of times: Filoni says on various occasions that Sidious was enjoying himself the entire fight, the brothers really weren't gonna touch him, it was an ass kicking, yadda yadda. It's a point that's been hammered home again and again and again and again and again.

Sheev >>>>>>>>>>> Maul and Savage. Deal with it, move on. He's better.

Just as I thought.... Still stupid excuses...

And ''various occasions'' , show me that ''various occasions'' please... It seems he talks about that more than once. But he didn't. He said ; Maul>Savage puts up a better fight than Fisto - Tiin - Kolar etc. or any council member (except Yoda & Windu) deal with it.

Originally posted by Marco1907
http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith



Alright, lets see who was saying that Sidious was toying ???


Oh you just seen that now?

Yeah that was one of his first comments on the episode.


Originally posted by The_Tempest


Second, that's because Palpatine "unleashed his full fury" against the lesser Jedi Masters (The New Essential Chronology), he wasn't toying with them.




Well the official site also says "Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile whirlwind of destruction.." when up against the Maul bros- The Lawless episode gallery Slide 21:

http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/the-lawless-episode-gallery

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh you just seen that now?

Yeah that was one of his first comments on the episode.

Yeah, I see it now. That's a good proof for Maul and Savage's power don't you think ?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the official site also says "Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile whirlwind of destruction.." when up against the Maul bros- The Lawless episode gallery Slide 21:

http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/the-lawless-episode-gallery

I don't dispute that. But that doesn't equate to "fighting his hardest to kill these mofos."

Don't backtrack now, DP. Nothing's changed.

The Sidious Fanboy vs The Maul Fanboy

3,2,1,

FIGHT!

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The Sidious Fanboy vs The Maul Fanboy

3,2,1,

FIGHT!

It will echo the tone and outcome of our idols' fight, I can tell you that much.

"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority. Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction".

Whirlwind of destruction doesn't sound like toying or holding back. At all.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't dispute that. But that doesn't equate to "fighting his hardest to kill these mofos."

Don't backtrack now, DP. Nothing's changed.

Not backtracking damn it!

I'm not claiming Maul and Opress were a match for Sidious, or that Sidious tried his "Very Best". Just that he tried and kicked their asses.

And I do wish you would give Maul and Opress enough credit to perform better than Fisto, Tiin and Kolar. Even Filoni gives them that much.

Especially now that we've seen Maul capable of engaging Windu + Secura, it would make no sense at all to think Maul can't last any longer than Fisto.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority. Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction".

Whirlwind of destruction doesn't sound like toying or holding back. At all.

Yeah, and releasing two guys you have helplessly pinned to a wall while laughing and allowing them to arm themselves doesn't sound like going all out. Laughing and smiling during the entire fight doesn't seem like you're particularly stressed. Deactivating your lightsabers and willfully dancing around a guy's clumsy strikes doesn't seem like you're in any danger. Allowing the one enemy to run past you and comfort his dying brother while you mock him from above doesn't jive with being legitimately threatened. Having the supervising director indicate again and again and again that you kicked these guys' ass, enjoyed yourself the whole time, and that they couldn't even touch you doesn't sound like a particularly tense affair for you.

Keep trying Arhael.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah, I see it now. That's a good proof for Maul and Savage's power don't you think ?

To be honest I don't know why anyone would put them on the same level as Fisto, Tiin and Kolar in the first place.

Opress has beaten Adi Gallia, Plo Koon and Ventress. And he's hurled a starship.

Maul has stomped Opress in seconds, engaged Windu and Secura together and also hurled a starship.

It's clear to me those 2 are above those 3 Council Members, (although Opress could struggle with any of them due to his lack of skill). But if people need a quote from Filoni to give them even that much credit then so be it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not backtracking damn it!

I'm not claiming Maul and Opress were a match for Sidious, or that Sidious tried his "Very Best". Just that he tried and kicked their asses.

Trying to determine Sidious's level of effort with any literal measure of exactitude is a fool's errand. We know from the sources (The New Essential Chronology) and his visible demeanor that Sheev took the fight with Mace Windu's posse much more seriously than he took the fight with the Zabraks. No smiles, no laughs, no taunts, no catch-and-release, no cat-and-mouse. Just quick, efficient, brutal death. That's just a fact. Not open to debate.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I do wish you would give Maul and Opress enough credit to perform better than Fisto, Tiin and Kolar. Even Filoni gives them that much.

Especially now that we've seen Maul capable of engaging Windu + Secura, it would make no sense at all to think Maul can't last any longer than Fisto.

Maul? Sure. Savage? No. He lasted only as long as Sidious wanted him to.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority. Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction".

Whirlwind of destruction doesn't sound like toying or holding back. At all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
To be honest I don't know why anyone would put them on the same level as Fisto, Tiin and Kolar in the first place.

Opress has beaten Adi Gallia, Plo Koon and Ventress. And he's hurled a starship.

Maul has stomped Opress in seconds, engaged Windu and Secura together and also hurled a starship.

It's clear to me those 2 are above those 3 Council Members, (although Opress could struggle with any of them due to his lack of skill). But if people need a quote from Filoni to give them even that much credit then so be it.


And also in SoD 04, there was another chance for Sidious to speedblitz, but he didn't even tried, instead they trash talked.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-004-2014-Digital-Empire-012_zps9b11cad7.jpg

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Here as well:

http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2

The Vizsla fight, if you can believe it, was actually longer, too. And it’s hard to believe, because I kept cutting that thing down and cutting it down. At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak. I love the part where Maul begs at the end, because that’s the thing about Sith. At the end of the day, if you break them…

Doesn't look like important though, especially not like that IGN reportage.

Yeah, almost every sith in the movies begged for their life. RotJ - Vader vs. Luke ; Vader didn't said anything but, his other hand seems like in a position to beg. Mace vs. Sidious ; Sidious begged like hell.
Only Dooku didn't seem like begging, but he did in the comic book though.

Originally posted by Marco1907


And also in SoD 04, there was another chance for Sidious to speedblitz, but he didn't even tried, instead they trash talked.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-004-2014-Digital-Empire-012_zps9b11cad7.jpg

He also didn't try to ragdoll him, despite easily being capable of it. So that doesn't really establish anything.

Marco, I'm just curious, where do you rank Maul in terms of canon fighters?

1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Mace
4. Maul?

I know you've said Mace>Maul before.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Maul? Sure. Savage? No. He lasted only as long as Sidious wanted him to.


That I can buy, given that even Maul can take out Opress in a few seconds, it would be silly to think Sidious can't blitz Opress.

But then Filoni's comments about doing better than the Council were aimed at Opress's performance. So I dunno, the 2 on 1 was probably pretty legit, with Opress being useful as backup, but useless on his own.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Maul? Sure. Savage? No. He lasted only as long as Sidious wanted him to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That I can buy, given that even Maul can take out Opress in a few seconds, it would be silly to think Sidious can't blitz Opress.
Maul executed a technique successfully, which is not a demonstration of superior speed. The fact that he managed to do it within few seconds doesn't make it more impressive either as successful technique can occur at any moment in any given fight. A fight between two world's best boxers can end in first few seconds, doesn't mean one is significantly better than the other.

By your logic I could say: given that Johny punched Andy in the face, it would be silly to think Dilan can't outrun Andy.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The Sidious Fanboy vs The Maul Fanboy

3,2,1,

FIGHT!
Tempest won the second Marco entered the debate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Maul executed a technique successfully, which is not a demonstration of superior speed.

Well it was far superior skill (and enough strength to do that to a beast like Savage). In Sidious's case he stronger than Maul at least just as skilled, and faster. So I'm just saying I can see Sidious taking Opress out pretty quickly in a one on one. Dooku also had no trouble taking Opress in seconds in their one on one. It's his lack of skill. He seems to be much more helpful as back up. Back up to Ventress against Dooku. Back up to Maul against Sidious.

His tremendous strength probably causes difficulty to an opponent already in the midst of dealing with another opponent.


Originally posted by Arhael
The fact that he managed to do it within few seconds doesn't make it more impressive either as successful technique can occur at any moment in any given fight. A fight between two world's best boxers can end in first few seconds, doesn't mean one is significantly better than the other.



Well it depends. I wouldn't expect Obi-Wan to take out Savage THAT Fast because Obi-Wan is a defensive fighter, and probably doesn't have the physical strength to take Opress out with one arm twist and one kick.

I personally think if someone can find an opening in my technique and take me out in a few seconds, that would impress me more than someone who spends a minute taking me out.

And with Boxing a knock out punch can come any time, but if 1 opponent wins in the first few seconds of the first round then I don't think anyone would call that close.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tempest won the second he entered the debate.

Nothing new there.

Well to be fair, your the best here for a reason.
Though it would be far more productive if you liked a character whose name wasn't Sheev.

What can I say?

Sheev bang, Sheev bang.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/3330839/she-bangs-o.gif

Originally posted by Trocity
Marco, I'm just curious, where do you rank Maul in terms of canon fighters?

1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Mace
4. Maul?

I know you've said Mace>Maul before.

1_2_3 - This can be change, Sidious - Yoda - Mace

4_5 - TCW Maul - Dooku

6_12 - Obi-Wan - Anakin - Savage - Asajj - Grievous - TPM Maul - (maybe Kit Fisto)

Putting Maul over Dooku and Anakin is lolworthy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Putting Maul over Dooku and Anakin is lolworthy.

Go watch the f*** movie, Obi-Wan kicked Anakin's ass.

And I didn't put Maul over Dooku, same level (4_5), it can go either way.

*Sigh

It is really hard to explaining things to you... My propose, don't read my posts, because you don't have the capacity to understand.

Your posts gave me Ebola. It's almost as if you gathered a collection of every canonical Star Wars material, and then said "Okay, this is what I won't believe."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Putting Maul over Dooku and Anakin is lolworthy.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority. Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction".

Whirlwind of destruction doesn't sound like toying or holding back. At all. That's because his intent wasn't stated at all in that line.

Don't be an idiot.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your posts gave me Ebola.

Okay, I know freedom of speech, no one has the right to tell others how to live their lives and such, but don't you think that's an incredibly distasteful thing to say in view of current events?

Are you implying that distasteful statements are bad?

People die every day from all the things most of us consider entertaining. Never stopped me from enjoying them before. It won't now either, though I still sympathize. A more important question would be, who cares if it is?

I personally could do with less comments like that, Ant.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That's because his intent wasn't stated at all in that line.

Don't be an idiot.


He said "it doesn't sound like". He didn't say "THIS IS DEFINITIVE PROOF OF HIS INTENT."

And I take it you have a quote which gives Sidious's true intent during that fight, since you so quickly jumped to call Arhael an Idiot.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Okay, I know freedom of speech, no one has the right to tell others how to live their lives and such, but don't you think that's an incredibly distasteful thing to say in view of current events? I knew about Ebola and how terrible it was for a few years now and I know I made at least 1-2 Ebola jokes since learning about it. How does it make it any worse to joke about now that its close? Its been in existence for a while now its not like it JUST started existing. But seeing as how most Americans are pretty damn closed minded it might as well have just started existing, as far as they care anyways.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He said "it doesn't sound like". He didn't say "THIS IS DEFINITIVE PROOF OF HIS INTENT."

And I take it you have a quote which gives Sidious's true intent during that fight, since you so quickly jumped to call Arhael an Idiot. No, but I do have the fight itself, where Sidious whupped the horny brothers like he was a drunken sailor and they were baby seals.

Are two sub-Dooku opponents supposed to give Sidious anything besides a laugh?

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, but I do have the fight itself,

Ah so there was a fight. Unlike the against the B-Team. Good


Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are two sub-Dooku opponents supposed to give Sidious anything besides a laugh?


Yeah a bit of time. Lasting much longer than the B-Team.

Sidious has trashed Dooku before, but for some reason, people well below him should be a threat of any kind.

I agree for the most part, Maul and Savage had more impressive performances than Fisto/Kolar/Tiin.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sidious has trashed Dooku before, but for some reason, people well below him should be a threat of any kind.


Who said they were a threat (in direct combat)?

And Dooku's not above Maul+Opress combined.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Who said they were a threat (in direct combat)?

I mean why would he even need to put in effort.

Of course not, but Sidious absolutely trashed Dooku. They aren't comparable in power at all. The gap is so large it's not even funny.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Who said they were a threat (in direct combat)?

And Dooku's not above Maul+Opress combined.

True, but it's more about individual levels than cumulative threat when it comes down to whether you're outclassed.

Maul + Savage make for a pretty cool mirror to Anakin and Obi-Wan actually, so Dooku could likely do decently against them.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I mean why would he even need to put in effort.


Because he can't do anything without any effort.

It's like Dooku vs Ventress.

Can Ventress provide any sort of real competition to Dooku on her own? No. He says it to her "Your no match for me without your monster.."

Meaning your no competition for me. There's no way you can win against me. There's no way you can even stalemate me.

Yet none of that means Dooku is going to Speed blitz Ventress. She still puts up a fight before being defeated. And that's despite the fact that his Force powers vastly outstrip hers.



Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Of course not, but Sidious absolutely trashed Dooku. They aren't comparable in power at all. The gap is so large it's not even funny.

Don't tell me you think Sidious would Blitz Dooku as well now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, but it's more about individual levels than cumulative threat when it comes down to whether you're outclassed.


Maul + Savage make for a pretty cool mirror to Anakin and Obi-Wan actually, so Dooku could likely do decently against them.



That's true. I think in a 2 vs 1, if the solo act is the best combatant on the field he always has at least a half decent chance of coming out the winner.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah so there was a fight. Unlike the against the B-Team. Good
Yes, it was indeed a "violent physical struggle (On the part of Maul and Savage, anyway) between opponents", as was Sidious' fight against the B-Team.

Not that I mentioned the B-Team anywhere in my post. Nor did Arhael.

I understand your need to white knight your boyfriend, but at least do so effectively.

To be fair to the B-Team. Agen Fisto and Saesee had no idea they were facing someone as powerful as Yoda. If they did I think they may have lasted longer when Palpatine went all quick silver on them

Originally posted by WildBantha88
To be fair to the B-Team. Agen Fisto and Saesee had no idea they were facing someone as powerful as Yoda. If they did I think they may have lasted longer when Palpatine went all quick silver on them



Speaking of Ebola, there's some chick from Liberia that came back to the U.S a couple days ago and she's thought to have the virus.

Even better, she's apparently situated less then half and hour's drive from where I live. Comfy.

Your sacrifice will not be in vain

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Speaking of Ebola, there's some chick from Liberia that came back to the U.S a couple days ago and she's thought to have the virus.

Even better, she's apparently situated less then half and hour's drive from where I live. Comfy.

You're not the one who lives in the DFW Area lol

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You're not the one who lives in the DFW Area lol

No, this is a separate case.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yes, it was indeed a "violent physical struggle (On the part of Maul and Savage, anyway) between opponents", as was Sidious' fight against the B-Team.


Yeah except 1 was a 7 second blitz, the other lasted a good couple of minutes.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Not that I mentioned the B-Team anywhere in my post. Nor did Arhael.

I understand your need to white knight your boyfriend, but at least do so effectively.


Why don't you read the title of the thread your commenting on before you come in here being an A Hole.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except 1 was a 7 second blitz, the other lasted a good couple of minutes.


Which means literally nothing without some kind of insight to Palpatine's mindset during the duel.

Asouka Tano dueled 4-saber wielding Grievous for 40 seconds in a stand-up fight before fleeing.

Shaak Ti dueled 2-saber wielding Grievous for 10 seconds in a stand-up fight before being disarmed.

You would claim that this is somehow a metric of Tano's ability compared to Shaak Ti's, which is nonsensical.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except 1 was a 7 second blitz, the other lasted a good couple of minutes.

Oh yeah? And how much effort do you imagine Palpatine put in either's case?

Apparently he used his "full fury" against the Council. There. We have a statement of mindset. Do you have one for when he fought Savage and Maul?

Because if you don't, going by the fight alone, Palpatine was basically slowly pulling the legs off of a beetle when he could have ended it far sooner.



Why don't you pay attention to the posts actually being responded to before you make yourself look foolish.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That's because his intent wasn't stated at all in that line.

Don't be an idiot.
Doesn't need to be.

Ventress+Opress were giving hard time to Dooku. While Sidious is superior to Dooku, so are Maul+Opress comparing to Ventress+Opress.

It's reasonable to assume that Sidious would need to fight best of his ability in order to demonstrate solid dominance he did. Filoni wanted to show why Sidious is Sith Lord, characters that hold back either lose or don't impress at all.

And now with new knowledge that Maul was capable to fight Windu+Secura, one of which has equal combat prowess to Sidious, it makes all the more sense.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh yeah? And how much effort do you imagine Palpatine put in either's case?


Clearly a fair bit considering the Quote Arhael provided about the level of destruction he was unleashing, and the fact that he did actually kill Opress in case you did or did not notice.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Apparently he used his "full fury" against the Council. There. We have a statement of mindset. Do you have one for when he fought Savage and Maul?


So please explain to me how "Full Fury" is more of a mindset statement than becoming immensely destructive by being "Fueled by the Dark side."

But hey, if that's not enough for you enough of an indication of his "intentions" for you, then The same source says this:

"he views the Zabrak not as an apprentice, but as a rival to be destroyed.."


Does that give enough of his intentions for you? That's actually the most clear quote on his intentions from either fight.


Originally posted by NemeBro
Because if you don't, going by the fight alone, Palpatine was basically slowly pulling the legs off of a beetle when he could have ended it far sooner.


Quite possibly with his initial Tk attack. But either prove he could have cut them up in the 2 on 1 Lightsaber fight quicker than he did. Or go learn how to present evidence, instead of just bringing speculation to the table.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Why don't you pay attention to the posts actually being responded to before you make yourself look foolish.


Let me teach you what this thread is about since you clearly have no clue.

A few posters here seem to think Sidious could have Saber Blitzed Maul + Opress as quickly as he did the B-Team (a theory that has Zero proof to back it up mind you). Marco gave a quote where the Supervising Director of the Sidious vs Maul+Opress fight has Flat Out said himself that Opress simply put up a better fight than the B-Team. Crediting him putting up that better fight to HIS OWN PERFORMANCE, and Not to SIDIOUS HOLDING BACK MORE ON HIM.

Then there was Tempest who gave a quote saying Sidious Unleashed his full Fury to prove he wasn't holding back. Kind of a useless quote of 2 reasons:

1- It's a source which likely isn't Official canon anymore, and this whole thread is discussing Official canon material, as well as quotes from people involved in official canon.
2- If anything he should have given a quote which flat out said Sidious was holding back against the Brothers. Because this whole "Sidious was Toying, and "The fight lasted as long as Sidious WANTED it to," these are all lines used on these boards, but not once used in any official canon material or sources.


Then Arhael came in giving a similar kind of verse (except from a source which is still very official) which stating the level of destructive power Sidious was unleashing. Then saying how it doesn't SOUND LIKE Toying or Holding back. Again the words "Toying" and "Holding back" haven't been used to describe that fight anywhere in any official canon source or by anyone involved in any official canon.


Then you jump in out of nowhere deciding to be an A-Hole and wasting my time explaining to you just how much of a clueless A-Hole you're being.

^

Hm.

Are we agreed on Savage is faster than those fools Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar ?

Savage is fast enough to speedblitz jedi Knox and Tatsu,
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-TheCloneWars-TheSithHunters043_zps76d546ee.jpg

speedblitzes Black Sun leaders, fast enough to rip Plo Koon's mask before he can react, can dodge from several blaster shot ;
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/3820036-67_zps35f5cdb1.jpg

Creates invisible shield with his saberstaff
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-DarthMaul-DeathSentence-015_zps90aefd96.jpg

Fast enough to disarm Asajj Ventress, and fast enough to react Anakin + Obi-Wan duo ;
WmBL_RF1DNk