Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Since one or two particularly intractable posters intermittently reintroduce this topic as though there's more to discuss, this is a quick read for one's edification.

?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

The "conflict" technically begins at 1:45 when Sidious attacks the brothers with the Force. Both Zabraks are pinned to the throne room windows and visibly squirm and struggle to release themselves, releasing stress fractures along the glass. Sidious, on the other hand, is smiling and snickering, visibly effortless. He releases them of his own accord and allows them to arm themselves. At 2:09, the brothers cage Sidious each with a two-armed blade lock. He holds them at bay with one hand each, pushing both their blades back, still smiling and cackling.

No stress, fear, concern, anxiety, or effort visibly demonstrated to convey that he's having a hard time or requiring full demand of his abilities, unlike his duels with Yoda and Mace

At 2:20, Savage knocks Sidious off a balcony
At 2:21, Sidious Force grips both brothers and drags them with him
At 2:30, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 2:32, Sidious elbows Savage in the face
At 2:42, Sidious back-kicks Savage off the ramp
At 2:45, Sidious Force slams Maul unconscious
At 2:55, Sidious deactivates his lightsabers and casually dances around two of Savage's strikes
At 2:58, Sidious kicks Savage in the chest
At 3:06, Sidious roundhouse kicks Savage in the face, stunning him
At 3:08, Sidious impales Savage with both blades from behind
At 3:13, Sidious Force pushes Savage off a balcony
At 4:07, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 4:14, Maul kicks Sidious in the chest
At 4:18, Sidious and Maul engage in blade lock with Maul beginning from a position of leverage. Sidious overpowers him and disarms him at 4:22
At 4:25, Sidious Force grips Maul and throws him on the ground
At 4:29, Sidious throws Maul into a wall
At 4:31, Sidious slams Maul on the ground again
At 4:41, Sidious inundates Maul with Force lightning and does so again at 4:55

In this play-by-play, the times that each brother lands a hit of any sort blow against Sidious via physical dominance or the Force is encoded in red. Everything else in standard black is the reverse for Sidious. As you can see, it's hilariously lopsided. This isn't a contest of peers.

So if the patently obvious isn't enough, what else is there?

How about director commentary:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage1_zps7c271af0.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage2_zps4e9ec144.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage3_zpsc8821e65.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage4_zps2afb991b.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage5_zps8e904a7a.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage6_zps0546f40d.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage7_zpsddd5b4a4.png

I even posted actual scans rather than putting the burden on any of you heretics to click links. Here it is.

So, to recap: the entire point of the duel was a love letter to Sidious's epic mastery and why he's the biggest BAMF around. Filoni describes it as an ass kicking, confirms that he's enjoying himself the entire time, and that his opponents can't even "compete" with him. He even implies that lightsabers were superfluous by "deciding" to deactivate them and "maul Maul."

That's how lopsided this fight is. Sidious is beyond them by miles and miles and miles. It's all there on-screen and Filoni went to exhausting lengths to repeatedly confirm one of the most ridiculously straightforward battles in Star Wars history.

Any moronic pursuit of this further as though the matter is open to debate can simply be directed to this thread.

tl;dr: Sheev's a god, that's all. This debate is officially closed by decree of Tempest.

http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/56/95/7890f6112c0b7925960efaa915a58a56-dropmic3.gif

Filoni confirms that Sidious is more powerful and superior. Where does it say he held back?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/2441ea8e76b858d6d819ce45d9b604fe/tumblr_mnpb8gtoWg1qbz6c0o1_500.gif

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
http://24.media.tumblr.com/2441ea8e76b858d6d819ce45d9b604fe/tumblr_mnpb8gtoWg1qbz6c0o1_500.gif



Arhael, Dave confirmed these clowns can't even compete with Sidious. Dave confirms he's enjoying himself the whole time. We see him laughing and smiling and prolonging the duel when he could have killed them outright.

So if these guys can't compete with him, it stands to reason they'd have been massacred as utterly as the B-Team if he weren't holding back.

I know you have an agenda where everyone's soooo much closer in prowess, but that's not how it is. These guys are ants and Sidious is a boot. Deal with it.

You and the rest of the universe clearly took all of that out of context.


Marco has you beat.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110201043740/cybernations/images/7/73/Trollface.png

You silly. I can't be trolled, Trollcity.

Proof Sidious could massacre them like b-team.

Originally posted by Arhael
Proof Sidious could massacre them like b-team.

Right after you prove he was fighting to the best of his ability.

Lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/56/95/7890f6112c0b7925960efaa915a58a56-dropmic3.gif
I love the Community. That particular episode was funny as ****.
Anyway, great job Tempest. Very fun yet educating read.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Lol.

I accept your concession.

https://iguessimagrownup.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/jennifer-lawrence-funny-face-hunger-games-awesome-gif.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest


So if these guys can't compete with him, it stands to reason they'd have been massacred as utterly as the B-Team if he weren't holding back.




Well it depends on your definition of "compete."

Usually "compete" suggests having a legitimate chance of winning. Not simply putting up a fight before going down.

I don't get the need to make every combatant equal to The B-Team next to Sidious. Not being capable of competing =/= B-Team quick Blitz.

If you want to take everything Filoni says then I can point out him saying:

1. It was a Legitimate fight.
2. Opress performed better than the Jedi Council. (Note- He specifically credits Opress for doing better and doesn't credit Sidious for trying less).
3. Lucas's orders were "I want Maul and Sidious to fight," and it was for me to figure out how to bring that about. (Note- He didn't say "Lucas's orders were "I want Sidious to "pretend" to fight Maul).
4. We wanted to show an "Epic" Lightsaber battle (Again I don't think "pretending" to have a lightsaber battle really equates into being an "epic" one, but maybe that's just me).

If you want to talk about him "enjoying" the fight, I can point out the official site saying the same about his fight with Yoda.

I can also point to Filoni saying "Yoda barely escaped Sidious" therefore Opress had to die. Thereby again hinting that if even Yoda has to run from Sidious then there's no way Opress and Maul can escape him - hence them not being able to compete. So again not being capable of surviving a fight with Sidious doesn't mean they equal a B-Team Level blitz.

Then of course there's SOD where Maul engages Windu and Secura together. If Maul can fight Mace, and Mace can not only fight, but defeat Sidious, then how can it add up if Maul can't even "fight" Sidious. After all him "fighting" Sidious was Lucas's orders in the first place.

So given everything we know why can't we just all agree on the following:

1. It was a fight.
2. The Bros were out of their depth and got their asses handed to them.
3. Opress was the weakest of the trio and couldn't be expected to last longer than Fisto in a one on one where Sidious goes straight for the kill (even though Opress likely would defeat Fisto in a one on one fight with him).

Its pretty clear in the scene. I don't really understand why there is even a discussion about this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Usually "compete" suggests having a legitimate chance of winning. Not simply putting up a fight before going down.

A false dichotomy. If you put up a fight before going down, you're a challenge: you have a legitimate chance of winning even if it isn't 50/50. That you didn't win doesn't mean you couldn't have.

These guys can't compete with Sidious per Filoni.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't get the need to make every combatant equal to The B-Team next to Sidious. Not being capable of competing =/= B-Team quick Blitz.

Not every combatant is equal to the B-Team. Most are far beneath, since the B-team actually represents some of the best Jedi ever. But they can't compete with Sidious either per Word of God and so are therefore a fairly accurate measuring stick.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to take everything Filoni says then I can point out him saying:

1. It was a Legitimate fight.

Kinda overwhelmed by all of the evidence at my disposal. You probably don't want to get in a dick measuring contest on this one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
2. Opress performed better than the Jedi Council. (Note- He specifically credits Opress for doing better and doesn't credit Sidious for trying less).

He doesn't credit anything for Opress lasting longer than the Jedi, he just says that he does. We can infer from the rest of the evidence what reason that is: Sidious was toying with him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
3. Lucas's orders were "I want Maul and Sidious to fight," and it was for me to figure out how to bring that about. (Note- He didn't say "Lucas's orders were "I want Sidious to "pretend" to fight Maul).

In addition to a dick measuring contest, I'm literally the last person here with whom you want to argue semantics. It wasn't a "pretend" fight: the weapons were real, the intent to kill was real (on one side, anyway), and the violence was real.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
4. We wanted to show an "Epic" Lightsaber battle (Again I don't think "pretending" to have a lightsaber battle really equates into being an "epic" one, but maybe that's just me).

Indeed it was an epic lightsaber battle... because Sidious was courting the fight and allowed it to happen. If he wanted a quick fight, it would have ended quickly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to talk about him "enjoying" the fight, I can point out the official site saying the same about his fight with Yoda.

...And we do see Sidious enjoy the fight with Yoda (at certain points).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can also point to Filoni saying "Yoda barely escaped Sidious" therefore Opress had to die. Thereby again hinting that if even Yoda has to run from Sidious then there's no way Opress and Maul can escape him - hence them not being able to compete. So again not being capable of surviving a fight with Sidious doesn't mean they equal a B-Team Level blitz.

Except... Yoda can compete with Sidious per Lucas... the brothers can't per Filoni... which makes this a worthless analogy and Yoda a poor measuring stick for the brothers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then of course there's SOD where Maul engages Windu and Secura together. If Maul can fight Mace, and Mace can not only fight, but defeat Sidious, then how can it add up if Maul can't even "fight" Sidious. After all him "fighting" Sidious was Lucas's orders in the first place.

We don't know how long Maul's tussle with Windu and Secura lasted nor do we know to what extent Windu was unleashing himself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So given everything we know why can't we just all agree on the following:

1. It was a fight.

...No one said it wasn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
2. The Bros were out of their depth and got their asses handed to them.

Everyone and their mother agrees Sheev is lightyears ahead of these clowns, yes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
3. Opress was the weakest of the trio and couldn't be expected to last longer than Fisto in a one on one where Sidious goes straight for the kill (even though Opress likely would defeat Fisto in a one on one fight with him).

Yeah, I get it, this is a very convoluted way to wank Obi-Wan and by extension Dooku. Doesn't matter. The whole point of this fight was to wank Sheev, DP. Not Obi-Wan. Not Dooku. Sheev >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all these fools. Time to deal with it and move on. My guy can give your guys wedgies with impunity.

Actually Sidious deactivates his sabers during the two on one in order to do the back flip kick on Savage, which, to me, again, shows that he was taking them seriously even when outnumbered, unless he absolutely had to perform that fancy stunt on Savage.

DP, if Windu could do absolutely nothing to stop Sidious from one shotting 2 notable lightsaber masters and another seconds later, what makes you think Maul could prevent Sidious from blitzing Savage had he wanted to? To think that, would suggest that you believe Maul to be superior to Windu, or Savage to be superior to the 3 council members. Savage is not noted for his saber skills enough to be considered a saber master, whereas the B-team are. Savage's advantage over most opponents comes from his brute strength, which is irrelevant to someone like Sidious (unless they enter a saber lock with Sidious using one hand to push Savage back), so if the B-teams skill and speed couldn't prevent them from being blitzed, how do you assume Savage could?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We don't know how long Maul's tussle with Windu and Secura lasted nor do we know to what extent Windu was unleashing himself.

Maul only briefly engaged Windu in a duel, and I think the latter was fighting seriously, because there's no reason for him to hold back. Regardless, the fight is too short to give a judgement on it. Mace was amped against Sidious, and Maul isn't far below him as a duellist anyways.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A false dichotomy. If you put up a fight before going down, you're a challenge: you have a legitimate chance of winning even if it isn't 50/50. That you didn't win doesn't mean you couldn't have.

These guys can't compete with Sidious per Filoni.



Not every combatant is equal to the B-Team. Most are far beneath, since the B-team actually represents some of the best Jedi ever. But they can't compete with Sidious either per Word of God and so are therefore a fairly accurate measuring stick.



Kinda overwhelmed by all of the evidence at my disposal. You probably don't want to get in a dick measuring contest on this one.



He doesn't credit anything for Opress lasting longer than the Jedi, he just says that he does. We can infer from the rest of the evidence what reason that is: Sidious was toying with him.



In addition to a dick measuring contest, I'm literally the last person here with whom you want to argue semantics. It wasn't a "pretend" fight: the weapons were real, the intent to kill was real (on one side, anyway), and the violence was real.



Indeed it was an epic lightsaber battle... because Sidious was courting the fight and allowed it to happen. If he wanted a quick fight, it would have ended quickly.



...And we do see Sidious enjoy the fight with Yoda (at certain points).



Except... Yoda can compete with Sidious per Lucas... the brothers can't per Filoni... which makes this a worthless analogy and Yoda a poor measuring stick for the brothers.



We don't know how long Maul's tussle with Windu and Secura lasted nor do we know to what extent Windu was unleashing himself.



...No one said it wasn't.



Everyone and their mother agrees Sheev is lightyears ahead of these clowns, yes.



Yeah, I get it, this is a very convoluted way to wank Obi-Wan and by extension Dooku. Doesn't matter. The whole point of this fight was to wank Sheev, DP. Not Obi-Wan. Not Dooku. Sheev >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all these fools. Time to deal with it and move on. My guy can give your guys wedgies with impunity.




I would respond to all of this if you could discuss it without going crazy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually Sidious deactivates his sabers during the two on one in order to do the back flip kick on Savage, which, to me, again, shows that he was taking them seriously even when outnumbered, unless he absolutely had to perform that fancy stunt on Savage.


That was actually one of the points in the fight he wasn't laughing or smiling. So I do think the flip kick was a serious hit, as was knocking Maul out right after.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP, if Windu could do absolutely nothing to stop Sidious from one shotting 2 notable lightsaber masters and another seconds later, what makes you think Maul could prevent Sidious from blitzing Savage had he wanted to? To think that, would suggest that you believe Maul to be superior to Windu, or Savage to be superior to the 3 council members. Savage is not noted for his saber skills enough to be considered a saber master, whereas the B-team are. Savage's advantage over most opponents comes from his brute strength, which is irrelevant to someone like Sidious (unless they enter a saber lock with Sidious using one hand to push Savage back), so if the B-teams skill and speed couldn't prevent them from being blitzed, how do you assume Savage could?


I think Savage is superior to the B-Team. He may not be faster than Fisto, but if he's just as fast with tremendous more strength, he could be supremely better back up.

Filoni's exact words:

"You know getting taken out by Sidious is pretty good, ranks up there. He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council, I'll say that much for him..

http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

So I don't see the argument or the issue when one of the first comments Filoni made on that fight was comparing Opress to the Jedi Council, and specifically giving him credit for putting up a better fight than them. He didn't give the credit for Opress performing better than Fisto and crewe to Sidious for not trying. He gave the credit for that to Opress for just putting up a better fight.


One on one is completely different. In that scenario I don't see Opress lasting longer than Fisto as even Maul has taken him out in seconds.

But we can't just selectively read Filoni's comments and putting our own interpretations on them. You have to take everything he says.


I might just start harassing Filoni on facebook/twitter/by mail e.t.c. until he gives an answer, otherwise this sh** will never stop.

Good job, Tempest.

I love how nobody ever disputed Sidious>Maul and Savage...

Probably because he.... beat them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Probably because he.... beat them?
Yeah. My point is that Tempest made a thread about how Sidious>Maul and Savage when there was never really any doubt.

This thread is about how Sidious is so far above Maul and Savage together, that he just toyed with them for 4 minutes.

... didn't Obi-Wan cut Savage' ****ing hand off in a duel?

Arm. At the shoulder.

And yet people think its logical to assume that Sideous was blood-lusted and going full-on against him because...?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was actually one of the points in the fight he wasn't laughing or smiling. So I do think the flip kick was a serious hit, as was knocking Maul out right after.


You and I watched a different fight. Sidious was smiling right before he deactivated his sabers and did that stunt. He lost his smile when he looked up after performing the stunt, and seen Maul flying at him while his sabers were still deactivated and before he could get back on his feet and resume combat stance.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think Savage is superior to the B-Team.


To think he poses a more of a threat to Sidious in a duel than 3 saber masters is silly, especially given that the advantages Savage holds over most opponents, he doesn't hold over Sidious. In other words, what makes Savage dangerous to most in combat becomes irrelevant when facing someone who far exceeds him in those areas.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He may not be faster than Fisto, but if he's just as fast with tremendous more strength, he could be supremely better back up.


Explain. Physical strength doesn't prevent one from being blitzed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni's exact words:

"You know getting taken out by Sidious is pretty good, ranks up there. He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council, I'll say that much for him..


Irrelevant. Filoni didn't coordinate Sidious's fight with the council members. He also depicted Sidious as having a far different demeanor than when he faced the council members.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't give the credit for Opress performing better than Fisto and crewe to Sidious for not trying. He gave the credit for that to Opress for just putting up a better fight.


He didn't give a reason at all, but he did depict Sidious as being far less aggressive, allowing his opponents to make their move first. That wasn't the case with the council members.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
One on one is completely different. In that scenario I don't see Opress lasting longer than Fisto as even Maul has taken him out in seconds.


By your logic, Filoni didn't credit Savage's better performance as being a better back up either. The comment was referring to when Savage was taken out, which happened during his one on one with Sidious.

Obviously Savage alone is not more threatening than 3 saber masters with Windu being alongside them. Filoni doesn't even consider Savage as being as skilled as a saber master.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But we can't just selectively read Filoni's comments and putting our own interpretations on them. You have to take everything he says.


I really don't unless it pertains exclusively to the material he has authority over, otherwise he has no say on fights he had absolutely nothing to do with, unless the point of the fight was about Savage's alleged superiority over the council members, but it wasn't, which is evident in how Sidious went about the fight.

What? All three? Nou, silly.

Individually though, certainly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You and I watched a different fight. Sidious was smiling right before he deactivated his sabers and did that stunt. He lost his smile when he looked up after performing the stunt, and seen Maul flying at him while his sabers were still deactivated and before he could get back on his feet and resume combat stance.


Kept rewinding and pausing but his face expression right before the back flip is hard to see. However he was cornered by the duo and avoiding a punch from Maul when doing the back flip kick.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Explain. Physical strength doesn't prevent one from being blitzed.

Well he's probably at least as fast as Fisto (given his speed in fights against other Council Members and Ventress). And if you remember Fisto was the only one of the Council members who exchanged a few blows with Sidious. But Opress has much stronger hits, so yeah I think it could make the difference.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Irrelevant. Filoni didn't coordinate Sidious's fight with the council members. He also depicted Sidious as having a far different demeanor than when he faced the council members.


Ok, so you think Filoni isn't an authority on comparing the 2 fights. So that's why your choosing to ignore that particular comment of his. That's fine.

I personally think his working with Lucas for the past 8 years and directing this fight which was one Lucas specifically ordered, makes him a pretty damn good opinion on the comparison.






Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He didn't give a reason at all, but he did depict Sidious as being far less aggressive, allowing his opponents to make their move first. That wasn't the case with the council members.


Yeah but he also depicted a fight. When there wasn't one at all against the Council Members (aside from Fisto for a very short period).


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
By your logic, Filoni didn't credit Savage's better performance as being a better back up either. The comment was referring to when Savage was taken out, which happened during his one on one with Sidious.


Because it was mostly a 2 on 1 fight before Savage went down. And obviously Savage can't last against Sidious in a 1 on 1.

I'm just making my own sense out of his comments just as you and Tempest have come to your own conclusions from his other comments.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obviously Savage alone is not more threatening than 3 saber masters with Windu being alongside them. Filoni doesn't even consider Savage as being as skilled as a saber master.


Urm, depends. I'd say Dooku would be more of a threat to Sidious then say Kenobi, Luminara and Ventress combined. But that doesn't mean Dooku could take those 3 together in a fight.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I really don't unless it pertains exclusively to the material he has authority over, otherwise he has no say on fights he had absolutely nothing to do with, unless the point of the fight was about Savage's alleged superiority over the council members, but it wasn't, which is evident in how Sidious went about the fight.


Ok but those same characters exist in the material he has authority over. So if it's his intention to show the Brothers ultimately being outclassed but better than other Masters who fall to Sidious later, then he has the authority to depict that and explain it to viewers. Which is one of the first things he did after the release of the episode.

I really don't want this to get into a long drawn out debate over this again, because we've done it countless times. And we all agree the Brothers were outclassed by Sidious. The only difference is You, Tempest and others believe Maul and Opress may as well be Tiin/Fisto/Kolar against Sidious. Whilst Me, Arhael and others think the Maul bros are definitely above the B-Team and can last a whole lot longer than them (especially in Sabers). As long as was depicted in fact.

I see Sidious vs Maul more like Dooku vs Ventress than Sidious vs Fisto. It makes no sense any other way considering Windu did not speed blitz Maul. There was clearly a fight going on there. And we know Windu goes toe to toe with Sidious (ignoring the did he legitimately beat Sidious or not part).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right after you prove he was fighting to the best of his ability.
Not even bothered. The louder you shout your opinions and speculations, the more they crumble in light of the fact that Windu even with help of Secura failed to quickly take down Maul.

If as you say Sidious could massacre them as utterly as the B-Team, Windu - the one who out dueled Sidious should have no problem with doing the same, especially when he has help.

So yeah, if I need to prove that Sidious was fighting to the best of his ability, then equally you need to prove that Windu wasn't when he faced Maul.

I might as well address your previous comment properly.


You don't know, if he was prolonging the duel. You don't know, if he could have killed them outright. Even if we go by your another assumption that he could kill them with TK at any point, that still doesn't prove he could do it with lightsaber. If someone can shoot you with a gun, doesn't mean he can beat you up in a fist fight as well.

We indeed see him laughing and smiling, that means nothing, he laughed and smiled during fight with Yoda as well. Ganner Rysode was laughing and smiling, when he took on thousands Vongs, so that's really indicates nothing.


And you don't have an agenda?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kept rewinding and pausing but his face expression right before the back flip is hard to see. However he was cornered by the duo and avoiding a punch from Maul when doing the back flip kick.


It's probably harder to see on youtube. I have it on DVR, and he was smiling when Opress leaped over him and before Maul threw the punch.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he's probably at least as fast as Fisto (given his speed in fights against other Council Members and Ventress). And if you remember Fisto was the only one of the Council members who exchanged a few blows with Sidious. But Opress has much stronger hits, so yeah I think it could make the difference.


At least as fast as Fisto? No. Fisto is faster and more skilled. At best, Savage is as fast as him.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok, so you think Filoni isn't an authority on comparing the 2 fights. So that's why your choosing to ignore that particular comment of his. That's fine.


Nope, not when he had Sidious treating the fight completely opposite to how Sidious treated a fight in which he had no involvement in.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I personally think his working with Lucas for the past 8 years and directing this fight which was one Lucas specifically ordered, makes him a pretty damn good opinion on the comparison.


Again, not when his depiction of Sidious's demeanor conflicts with his comments (If he was suggesting that Savage is a superior duelist, that is), and was the exact opposite to how Lucas depicted Sidious's demeanor against the council members.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but he also depicted a fight. When there wasn't one at all against the Council Members (aside from Fisto for a very short period).


That's because Sidious allowed them to fight. Do I really need to point out how differently Sidious treated both fights?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because it was mostly a 2 on 1 fight before Savage went down. And obviously Savage can't last against Sidious in a 1 on 1.


The comment Filoni made seemed to be referring to Savage's one on one with Sidious, considering that's when he was taken out. Regardless, Filoni didn't credit Savage lasting as long as he did one on one against Sidious to Sidious toying with him. We just know that because of the fact that Sidious was clearly being portrayed as not taking the fight seriously. I mean, if you don't accept the obvious, then Savage could hold his own against Sidious better than he could against someone who is far below Sidious (Maul), which doesn't make too much sense, but that's the very logic you're using, all because Filoni didn't outright state that Sidious was toying around, although he did heavily imply it and made it noticeable throughout the entire fight.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm just making my own sense out of his comments just as you and Tempest have come to your own conclusions from his other comments.


No, you're only harping on one comment and trying to compare two different fights both of which Sidious treated far differently. If the fight was intended to depict a disparity between Savage and the council members, then Sidious would have went straight for the kill as he did against the council members. The purpose of the fight was to show Sidious's clear superiority over the brothers while enjoying himself, which is what was depicted and something Filoni outright stated.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm, depends. I'd say Dooku would be more of a threat to Sidious then say Kenobi, Luminara and Ventress combined. But that doesn't mean Dooku could take those 3 together in a fight.


I think Dooku might be able to pull it off with extreme difficulty.

Regardless if he couldn't, though, Dooku is also miles ahead of them individually. Savage, whom Filoni doesn't even consider to be skilled enough to be labeled a swords master, is not miles ahead of any of those council members individually (not in speed and raw skill, anyway). His advantage over them would come from his brute strength, which, for the most part, is irrelevant to Sidious, unless he throws all of his weight and strength in a saber lock on Sidious, who is using one arm to push him back. Other than that, Sidious showed absolutely nothing to indicate that he struggled against Savage's strength enough for it to matter, otherwise he wouldn't have been toying around and casually blocking blows with his back towards Savage and with a huge smile on his face.

Point is, if Sidious can one shot saber masters, then he could do the same against an opponent who is not a saber master. Physical strength wouldn't prevent that.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok but those same characters exist in the material he has authority over. So if it's his intention to show the Brothers ultimately being outclassed but better than other Masters who fall to Sidious later, then he has the authority to depict that and explain it to viewers. Which is one of the first things he did after the release of the episode.


His only intention was to make an epic saber duel, with Sidious showing clear superiority over the brothers, and he did depict that, with Sidious enjoying himself. If his intention was to show Savage's superiority in a saber duel over the council members, then he would have depicted Sidious as treating the fight the same, and not showing Sidious as not taking them seriously and clearly toying with them. He definitely wouldn't have made the statement that Savage isn't as skilled as a saber master (which was a quote you provided), so how you assume Savage is a greater threat to Sidious in a saber duel than 3 saber masters is beyond me, especially when Savage's biggest advantages in a saber duel barley affected Sidious.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I really don't want this to get into a long drawn out debate over this again, because we've done it countless times. And we all agree the Brothers were outclassed by Sidious. The only difference is You, Tempest and others believe Maul and Opress may as well be Tiin/Fisto/Kolar against Sidious. Whilst Me, Arhael and others think the Maul bros are definitely above the B-Team and can last a whole lot longer than them (especially in Sabers).


The thing is both you and Arhael lowball three jedi masters who are regarded as being some of the greatest swords masters of all time, and believe Savage poses a greater threat to Sidious in a saber duel despite his lack of skill to even be considered a saber master.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I see Sidious vs Maul more like Dooku vs Ventress than Sidious vs Fisto. It makes no sense any other way considering Windu did not speed blitz Maul. There was clearly a fight going on there. And we know Windu goes toe to toe with Sidious (ignoring the did he legitimately beat Sidious or not part).


That's a vast difference, so I'm not seeing how you believe someone who isn't even a saber master could provide better support in a saber duel to someone below Dooku in sabers against Sidious than the support 3 saber masters could provide to someone who is a peer of Dooku in strict sabers.

lol thumb this post up if you dont read s66 posts

This isn't facebook, nerd.

i will make it facebook

Lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I think Dooku might be able to pull it off with extreme difficulty.

Wasn't is said somewhere that Dooku was struggling against the Ventress + Savage team? So I think while I would rule out the possibility, Ventress, Kenobi and Luminara would take him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's probably harder to see on youtube. I have it on DVR, and he was smiling when Opress leaped over him and before Maul threw the punch.


No I was trying to look at his expression right after Maul's punch- just before the backflip kick. It's at that time he was surrounded by the 2, and was avoiding a punch from Maul, when he floors Savage with that back kick, and next time we see him, he's definitely not smiling, and knocks Maul out with Tk.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
At least as fast as Fisto? No. Fisto is faster and more skilled. At best, Savage is as fast as him.


You have proof of that from Official Canon? Might as well stick with Official Canon sources here seen as we are discussing Filoni's comments so since he doesn't consider EU Legends Canon, there's no point in mixing and matching, because they are not consistent with each other.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nope, not when he had Sidious treating the fight completely opposite to how Sidious treated a fight in which he had no involvement in.


Again, not when his depiction of Sidious's demeanor conflicts with his comments (If he was suggesting that Savage is a superior duelist, that is), and was the exact opposite to how Lucas depicted Sidious's demeanor against the council members.


That's because Sidious allowed them to fight. Do I really need to point out how differently Sidious treated both fights?


Thing is the demeanor Sidious had when fighting the B-Team is not his only demeanor when not messing around, as we clearly saw in his fight against Yoda.

Of course Yoda was a proper challenge and struggle so there were immensely more serious instances for Sidious in that fight where we visibly see Sidious's struggle, but it doesn't change his overall demeanor in that fight, showing he will laugh in fights even when he's clearly not messing around, as long as he's confident of the outcome.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The comment Filoni made seemed to be referring to Savage's one on one with Sidious, considering that's when he was taken out. Regardless, Filoni didn't credit Savage lasting as long as he did one on one against Sidious to Sidious toying with him. We just know that because of the fact that Sidious was clearly being portrayed as not taking the fight seriously. I mean, if you don't accept the obvious, then Savage could hold his own against Sidious better than he could against someone who is far below Sidious (Maul), which doesn't make too much sense, but that's the very logic you're using, all because Filoni didn't outright state that Sidious was toying around, although he did heavily imply it and made it noticeable throughout the entire fight.

Well no because Filoni never mentioned the 1 0n 1, or the 2 0n 1, before Savage went down. He just gave Savage credit for the fight he put up against Sidious before getting killed. There's no reason to think that just means their 1 on 1, when none of the Council members ever faced Sidious 1 on 1, and Savage was clearly already tired and wounded by the time his 1 on 1 came along.

But yes of course 1 on 1 Sidious can take Savage out faster than Maul did. Dooku also takes Savage out incredible quickly one on one (their training session). But just having Ventress help him clearly made a huge difference.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, you're only harping on one comment and trying to compare two different fights both of which Sidious treated far differently. If the fight was intended to depict a disparity between Savage and the council members, then Sidious would have went straight for the kill as he did against the council members. The purpose of the fight was to show Sidious's clear superiority over the brothers while enjoying himself, which is what was depicted and something Filoni outright stated.

Well technically he didn't go "straight" for the kill with the Council Members. He only took out his Sabers after the Jedi ignited theirs. Same with Maul/Opress, and same with Yoda in fact.

The reason I harp on about that 1 comment is because Filoni has already answered the topic we go around and around in circles with. The fact that Opress (so clearly Maul as well), put up a better fight than the Jedi B-Team.

When he's answered such a specific question for us I don't see why we have to keep on going in circles over it.






Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I think Dooku might be able to pull it off with extreme difficulty.

Regardless if he couldn't, though, Dooku is also miles ahead of them individually.



He maybe. I'm just pointing out that the more powerful the opponent, the more of a threat they are, rather than 2 or 3 less powerful opponents.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Savage, whom Filoni doesn't even consider to be skilled enough to be labeled a swords master, is not miles ahead of any of those council members individually (not in speed and raw skill, anyway). His advantage over them would come from his brute strength, which, for the most part, is irrelevant to Sidious, unless he throws all of his weight and strength in a saber lock on Sidious, who is using one arm to push him back. Other than that, Sidious showed absolutely nothing to indicate that he struggled against Savage's strength enough for it to matter, otherwise he wouldn't have been toying around and casually blocking blows with his back towards Savage and with a huge smile on his face.

Point is, if Sidious can one shot saber masters, then he could do the same against an opponent who is not a saber master. Physical strength wouldn't prevent that.


The thing is both you and Arhael lowball three jedi masters who are regarded as being some of the greatest swords masters of all time, and believe Savage poses a greater threat to Sidious in a saber duel despite his lack of skill to even be considered a saber master.




That's a vast difference, so I'm not seeing how you believe someone who isn't even a saber master could provide better support in a saber duel to someone below Dooku in sabers against Sidious than the support 3 saber masters could provide to someone who is a peer of Dooku in strict sabers.



Despite Opress's lack of Saber mastery he clearly eats Council Members for Breakfast, and has defeated some extremely skilled Saber duelists.

Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, (And Kenobi on occasion as well). Plus he's battered Ventress, and shown himself to be more of a threat to Count Dooku than Kenobi ever was.

And Filoni never said Opress wasn't as "Fast" as other Council Members. Given how he fought Ventress and Adi Gallia I think he's clearly pretty damn fast.

So not sure how putting him above Fisto or Tiin is lowballing them. It's because he's better than them individually that he puts up a better struggle alongside Maul than all 3 of the Council do alongside Windu. Although technically it was only Fisto who actually traded Saber blows with Sidious while Sidious was simultaneously trading blows with Windu).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't is said somewhere that Dooku was struggling against the Ventress + Savage team? So I think while I would rule out the possibility, Ventress, Kenobi and Luminara would take him.

Originally posted by Arhael
If as you say Sidious could massacre them as utterly as the B-Team, Windu - the one who out dueled Sidious should have no problem with doing the same, especially when he has help.

Windu beat Sidious with not only a huge Vaapad amp far beyond any he had ever had before but also a massively circumstantial mind-set that in and of itself would have made him a much deadlier combatant.

Using the Sidious duel in any argument pertaining to Mace vs anyone not Sidious, is to take said duel hilariously out of context, whether it is for or against Windu.

Windu was fighting tiers above his normal lightsaber prowess the entire time due to external circumstances.

Windu be it against Depa, Maul, Asajj, Dooku, etc, etc... performs nowhere near the level that he did against the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Windu beat Sidious with not only a huge Vaapad amp far beyond any he had ever had before but also a massively circumstantial mind-set that in and of itself would have made him a much deadlier combatant.

Using the Sidious duel in any argument pertaining to Mace vs anyone not Sidious, is to take said duel hilariously out of context, whether it is for or against Windu.

Windu was fighting tiers above his normal lightsaber prowess the entire time due to external circumstances.

Windu be it against Depa, Maul, Asajj, Dooku, etc, etc... performs nowhere near the level that he did against the Dark Lord of the Sith.

1. Against Depa Windu was refusing to use Vaapad and she was ampted as well. When did he fight Asajj, how long? Dooku went toe to toe against Yoda, why shouldn't he be able to do the same against Windu?

2. Prove Windu fought better/deadlier against Sidious, than when he fought Maul. Assumptions don't count.

3. Vaapad is non-canon, however, the fact that Windu is given level 9 combat prowess like Yoda and Sidious still is.

4. Even if we assume that Windu did not fight as good as against Sidious, it is well compensated by the fact that he had help from Secura.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Windu beat Sidious with not only a huge Vaapad amp far beyond any he had ever had before but also a massively circumstantial mind-set that in and of itself would have made him a much deadlier combatant.


And I wonder how much of this argument holds up in the new Official Canon.



Originally posted by Arhael

And you don't have an agenda?


No he's the only one without an Agenda here.

For me this is all part of a 3 step conspiracy process to prove that Dooku can take Sidious


For the record I don't think Dooku has a chance against Sidious. At beating him or stalemating him. He will only lose. Because if he had even a chance of winning (or stalemating) Sidious then he would have risked it and challenged him.

In fact I don't even think he could take many wins against Windu. I think his best option against Windu is fighting defensively holding him off to a stalemate.

Because Windu is Stronger than Dooku, and Sidious is just vastly more powerful (Stronger + Immensely more Powerful TK).

I agree with that. Fighting defensively to survive as long as possible is the only option. He was able to do it against Yoda. After brief duel with Windu, he ran away as well. There is no reason to assume that either Yoda or Windu held back, it's just Dooku is good enough to hold them off at least for some time. After all he can engage Anakin+Kenobi simultaneously, which should be just as hard as fighting Yoda or Windu, if not harder.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I would respond to all of this if you could discuss it without going crazy.

Nothing I said was particularly hostile or offensive, just blunt. But we all know I've had your number on this debate since Feb '13.

As far as my agenda goes, it's the same as Filoni's: Sidious is a BAMF and next to him, the Zabraks ain't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nothing I said was particularly hostile or offensive, just blunt. But we all know I've had your number on this debate since Feb '13.

As far as my agenda goes, it's the same as Filoni's: Sidious is a BAMF and next to him, the Zabraks ain't.


Urm no... Your agenda is to put Maul + Opress on the same level as the B-Team when taking on Sidious. But considering one of Filoni's first comments on that fight was addressing just that point completely contradicting your idea on the issue, it's really me whose had your number since (whenever)


The Big Difference between you and Filoni- You would never say what he said about Opress putting up a better fight than the B-Team.

But yes your right about Maul being no where near Sidious in power. So you can worship Sidious based on that all you like, but there's no need to degrade Maul/Opress to B-Team level in the process.

http://i.imgur.com/WMkJPog.gif

You've been backpedaling on Obi-Wan/Maul and Sidious/Maul/Opress for over a year now, tacitly conceding to my original interpretations.

They're fodder, bro. That's all. Sidious is a zillion times better and there's nothing they or you or anyone else can do about it. All that fight ever amounted to was a protracted dissection to alleviate Sheev's boredom.

#FiloniStandsWithMe

Because as we all know, being B-Team level is a bad thing, POWER.

There were many points in the duel he could have ended it before he did.

At any point, really.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i.imgur.com/WMkJPog.gif

You've been backpedaling on Obi-Wan/Maul and Sidious/Maul/Opress for over a year now, tacitly conceding to my original interpretations.

They're fodder, bro. That's all. Sidious is a zillion times better and there's nothing they or you or anyone else can do about it. All that fight ever amounted to was a protracted dissection to alleviate Sheev's boredom.

#FiloniStandsWithMe

Sidious is love. Sidious is life.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I was trying to look at his expression right after Maul's punch- just before the backflip kick. It's at that time he was surrounded by the 2, and was avoiding a punch from Maul, when he floors Savage with that back kick, and next time we see him, he's definitely not smiling, and knocks Maul out with Tk.


I explained why he was no longer smiling. He was at a position of disadvantage (deactivated lightsabers; not in combat stance) while Maul was flying at him. That particular scene indicates that Sidious could have used the force on them mid-duel, you know, when he was just standing there smiling right before Savage flipped over him. Again, that entire sequence out side of the palace just shows that Sidious wasn't taking the fight seriously, and that they weren't pressing him at all in sabers, otherwise he'd have used the force when pausing and allowing them to strategize their moves, which is why Savage managed to leap over him in the first place. He prolonged the fight.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You have proof of that from Official Canon? Might as well stick with Official Canon sources here seen as we are discussing Filoni's comments so since he doesn't consider EU Legends Canon, there's no point in mixing and matching, because they are not consistent with each other.


Yeah his fight with Grievous shows he is faster than Kenobi, at least in official canon. Official canon shows Kenobi getting his ass beat by grievous or being bested in strict sabers up until ROTS. Fisto was relaxed and was hardly even pressed by Grievous, and was forcing him on the defensive throughout the duel.

Not to mention that being a saber master would require one to be fast by jedi standards, and good enough to use their speed in combat, whether it's reaction speed or striking speed. A saber master would have advanced all around combat speed.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thing is the demeanor Sidious had when fighting the B-Team is not his only demeanor when not messing around, as we clearly saw in his fight against Yoda.


This has been explained to you numerous times. You have a habit of bringing up things that have been cleared up.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course Yoda was a proper challenge and struggle so there were immensely more serious instances for Sidious in that fight where we visibly see Sidious's struggle, but it doesn't change his overall demeanor in that fight, showing he will laugh in fights even when he's clearly not messing around, as long as he's confident of the outcome.


During his saber duel with Yoda, Sidious showed signs of frustration, anger, fear and strain more than anything else. Hardly comparable.

Stop grasping at straws.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no because Filoni never mentioned the 1 0n 1, or the 2 0n 1, before Savage went down. He just gave Savage credit for the fight he put up against Sidious before getting killed. There's no reason to think that just means their 1 on 1, when none of the Council members ever faced Sidious 1 on 1, and Savage was clearly already tired and wounded by the time his 1 on 1 came along.


Again, grasping at straws.

Filoni wasn't specific at all. He made that single statement without mentioning the clearly noticeable circumstance.

My point is, he didn't mention that Sidious was toying with Savage during their one on one, therefore, by your logic, Sidious was fighting his hardest, and Savage performed better against Sidious than he did against Maul.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But yes of course 1 on 1 Sidious can take Savage out faster than Maul did. Dooku also takes Savage out incredible quickly one on one (their training session). But just having Ventress help him clearly made a huge difference.


Not by your logic. Evidently, you don't use feats out side of that fight to determine how seriously Sidious was taking that fight or how quickly he could have ended it, so why do so now?

Filoni didn't mention that Sidious was toying around during the one on one, therefore he lasted that long because he's just that good by your logic.

If you're going to keep harping on that single comment, then it's not up to you to determine which parts of the fight the comment applies to. Either you consider it or you don't, since Filoni wasn't specific.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well technically he didn't go "straight" for the kill with the Council Members. He only took out his Sabers after the Jedi ignited theirs. Same with Maul/Opress, and same with Yoda in fact.


He was sitting down pretending to be surprised by their arrival to make it seem as if the jedi were trying to take control of the republic by force. You've read the novel. Stop.

When he did ignite his saber, though, he went straight for the kill. He flew at them and attacked first, not relenting. That's Sidious's style of fighting. He's an aggressive saber duelist. He wasn't aggressive at all against the bros. And Before you say something silly like, "they were pressing him and forcing him on the defensive," I'll remind of the ease in which he used a force attack on Maul while Maul was flying at him, which indicates that Sidious could have used the force any time he wanted if he was being pressed, considering all those pauses he did during mid-combat, which suggests that he wasn't being pressed and that if he was, he'd not neglect the use of his powers. Then of course, there's the time he forced Maul on the edge of the balcony and relented his attack to start smiling all maniacally.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The reason I harp on about that 1 comment is because Filoni has already answered the topic we go around and around in circles with. The fact that Opress (so clearly Maul as well), put up a better fight than the Jedi B-Team.


You're the only one who keeps going around in circles. To assume Sidious couldn't blitz Savage, would suggest that you either believe Maul to be superior to Windu, who couldn't prevent his team from being butchered in seconds, or you believe Savage is a better back up and far more threatening than three saber masters, despite the fact that Filoni doesn't even think he's skilled enough to be labeled one.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When he's answered such a specific question for us I don't see why we have to keep on going in circles over it.


You're the one who keeps bringing up invalid points, and switching up your logic when it suits you.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He maybe. I'm just pointing out that the more powerful the opponent, the more of a threat they are, rather than 2 or 3 less powerful opponents.



Not when the his power couldn't come to play against Sidious. Him and Maul couldn't even repulse Sidious TK grip on them. They couldn't even prevent Sidious from force pulling them off the balcony as he was falling.

Again, Savage's superiority over most opponents is irrelevant when it comes to Sidious, so what does his advantage over others have to do with Sidious?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Despite Opress's lack of Saber mastery he clearly eats Council Members for Breakfast, and has defeated some extremely skilled Saber duelists.


Probably because of the advantages he holds over most of them, which are advantages that clearly didn't come to play against Sidious.

Stop using ABC type arguments.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, (And Kenobi on occasion as well). Plus he's battered Ventress, and shown himself to be more of a threat to Count Dooku than Kenobi ever was.


Brute strength, something that barely had an effect on Sidious, and something that can't prevent him from being blitzed by Sidious.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Filoni never said Opress wasn't as "Fast" as other Council Members. Given how he fought Ventress and Adi Gallia I think he's clearly pretty damn fast.


Sidious would blitz Ventress and Adi, so what's your point? Savage being fast enough to react to and hold his own against force users who are miles below Sidious in speed is meaningless.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So not sure how putting him above Fisto or Tiin is lowballing them. It's because he's better than them individually that he puts up a better struggle alongside Maul than all 3 of the Council do alongside Windu. Although technically it was only Fisto who actually traded Saber blows with Sidious while Sidious was simultaneously trading blows with Windu).


Savage's superiority over most force users comes from his brute strength and TK (you're the one who quoted Filoni on this). His advantages over most force users are not advantages that would save him from being blitzed by Sidious.

Maul is confirmed by a highly reputable source to be "quicker and deadlier" than Sheev.

Sheev is lucky Maul held back.

Proof?

Originally posted by Arhael
Proof?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2014/pLom_d.gif

Originally posted by NewGuy01
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2014/pLom_d.gif
Damn, Yoda's visions are useless. Inserting the hood into the scene, where there wasn't one.

Originally posted by Arhael
Damn, Yoda's visions are useless. Inserting the hood into the scene, where there wasn't one.

At least it looks a lot better than the movie version of that Blitz.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not to mention that being a saber master would require one to be fast by jedi standards, and good enough to use their speed in combat, whether it's reaction speed or striking speed. A saber master would have advanced all around combat speed.


What are you saying? That being a Saber Master by default makes one as fast as Savage? Do you not think All Jedi Masters are Saber Masters?





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This has been explained to you numerous times. You have a habit of bringing up things that have been cleared up.

No just because you and Tempest "claim" it's been thoroughly addressed several times doesn't mean you have successfully done so. In fact I and others have rebutted your explanations numerous times. Yet you have the same habit of going back to that same point "But Sidious was laughing!!"

Your and Tempest's explanations do not answer the point at hand:

If Sidious can laugh while fighting Yoda (a fight he's clearly not going to mess about with), then why can't he laugh while seriously fighting Maul+Opress who are miles and miles below Yoda?

If Sidious can emjoy himself while fighting Yoda (a fight he's clearly not going to mess about with), then why can't enjoy himself while seriously fighting Maul+Opress who are miles and miles below Yoda?




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
During his saber duel with Yoda, Sidious showed signs of frustration, anger, fear and strain more than anything else. Hardly comparable.


Yes because Yoda pressed him. Yoda is an opponent miles and miles ahead of Maul+Opress. That doesn't take away from the fact that Sidious also smiled, crackled and laughed in a fight he obviously took deadly serious.

Sidious also showed 1 sign of frustration against the brothers, when he KO'd Mual with TK. He also showed signs of anger twice. Once right before his initial Tk attack- He clearly says "You are trying to deceive me" with anger. He also says "You have been replaced" again with clear Anger in his voice.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, grasping at straws.

Filoni wasn't specific at all. He made that single statement without mentioning the clearly noticeable circumstance.

My point is, he didn't mention that Sidious was toying with Savage during their one on one, therefore, by your logic, Sidious was fighting his hardest, and Savage performed better against Sidious than he did against Maul.



What? He clearly meant the whole fight Opress put up. Why would he have to specify he's talking about the 2 on 1? Why would he only talk about the final part of the fight when Opress was already tired and injured?

The fact that Filoni has clearly addressed the point why Opress didn't get blitz shows I'm not the one grasping here.

My point was directly addressed and agreed upon a long time ago.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not by your logic. Evidently, you don't use feats out side of that fight to determine how seriously Sidious was taking that fight or how quickly he could have ended it, so why do so now?


Which feats? Him blitzing the Council. Opponents that you've yet to prove are as fast as Maul and Savage, and a point that again, has been clearly addressed by Filoni.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He was sitting down pretending to be surprised by their arrival to make it seem as if the jedi were trying to take control of the republic by force. You've read the novel. Stop.


The Novel isn't part of the new official canon. He doesn't say in the film "Oh no please don't, whay are you attacking me" e.t.c while recording it, in the film, or script for that matter.

He knew they were coming. But he didn't just jump them straight for the kill before anyone could make any kind of move.

He in fact talked to them first, waited for them to ignite their Sabers FIRST and then took out his Saber (still talking in fact) before going in to attack them.

Same with Maul+Opress, except he actually attacked them first, without them directly threatening him in the slightest. But again he only took out his Sabers after the Brothers took out theirs.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When he did ignite his saber, though, he went straight for the kill. He flew at them and attacked first, not relenting. That's Sidious's style of fighting. He's an aggressive saber duelist. He wasn't aggressive at all against the bros. And Before you say something silly like, "they were pressing him and forcing him on the defensive," I'll remind of the ease in which he used a force attack on Maul while Maul was flying at him, which indicates that Sidious could have used the force any time he wanted if he was being pressed, considering all those pauses he did during mid-combat, which suggests that he wasn't being pressed and that if he was, he'd not neglect the use of his powers. Then of course, there's the time he forced Maul on the edge of the balcony and relented his attack to start smiling all maniacally.


You and Tempest analyze every second of the fight to a fanatical degree trying to prove Sidious was extending the fight.

I do agree if Sidious went completely "all out" with TK attacks from the outset, it likely would have been a much shorter fight, and he may not even have needed his Lightsabers. But even that doesn't mean he was "purposefully" extending the fight. I mean shouldn't EVERY Jedi/Sith do that right from the outset when fighting Grievous? Does the fact that they don't mean they are purposefully extending the fight? It's just what's in character for combatants to do. It's in character for Sidious to do Force attack right from the onset, act a bit cocky, then start fighting again properly, as we saw against his Ultimate Foe- Yoda.

Plus considering he never used TK against the Council, I don't see what any of that proves in relation to comparing the Maul Brothers to the Council Members in question.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're the only one who keeps going around in circles. To assume Sidious couldn't blitz Savage, would suggest that you either believe Maul to be superior to Windu, who couldn't prevent his team from being butchered in seconds, or you believe Savage is a better back up and far more threatening than three saber masters, despite the fact that Filoni doesn't even think he's skilled enough to be labeled one.


I'm suggesting Savage is much better back up than either of those individual masters. Only 1 of whom actually got the chance to fight alongside Mace.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, Savage's superiority over most opponents is irrelevant when it comes to Sidious, so what does his advantage over others have to do with Sidious?


Probably because of the advantages he holds over most of them, which are advantages that clearly didn't come to play against Sidious.


Brute strength, something that barely had an effect on Sidious, and something that can't prevent him from being blitzed by Sidious.


Sidious would blitz Ventress and Adi, so what's your point? Savage being fast enough to react to and hold his own against force users who are miles below Sidious in speed is meaningless.


Savage's superiority over most force users comes from his brute strength and TK (you're the one who quoted Filoni on this). His advantages over most force users are not advantages that would save him from being blitzed by Sidious.


Filoni never said Opress's "Only" advantages were "Strength" and "Tk".

He said he lacks skill and training. Not speed or power. And he never even suggested that Opress isn't a really formidable opponent. He in fact emphasizes how powerful they had to show him, to make Kenobi's final victory over him all the more exciting/impressive.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Stop using ABC type arguments.



Hey? That's exactly what you used to "prove" Fisto is faster than Kenobi.

In official canon:

1. Luminara and Barriss are both known for their "Incredible" Lightsaber skills (official site). That suggests something above just being "Masters." Luminara is obviously a Master in all respects anyway.
Anyway Ventress early in TCW was easily stalemating Luminara. Later in TCW we know Sidious noted Ventress becoming considerably more powerful.
Yet Savage still beat her. Even used superior "speed" against her when disarming her.

2. Opress beats "Masters" in direct Saber combat. Council level Masters no less.

3. Fisto has an impressive feat in besting Grievous. But Ventress flat out beat a better trained Grievous in pure Sabers. (In official canon Dathomir is not a dark side nexus as far as I'm aware). And this was reinforced by Filoni saying Grievous isn't a match for someone of Ventress's caliber.

4. No Vapaad dark side superconducting loop in official canon (well not yet) means Mace is at least a "near equal" to Sidious in Pure Sabers if nothing else. Yet Mace did not blitz Maul.


So where is the proof in the new "Offical" Canon that Fisto, Tiin or Kolar are as fast or formidable as Opress? There isn't any.

The fight we saw in "The Lawless" added to Filoni's direct comparison clearly indicates Opress is above any of those 3, in Speed and Overall Saber/Close Combat ability. And Maul is far above Opress.

I love how Sidious being the most powerful Sith just isn't good enough for them.

DP, I don't know if you take requests, but I love the stuff about how people who are laughing and smiling are obviously taking shit super-seriously. Could you go more in-depth about that?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I love how Sidious being the most powerful Sith just isn't good enough for them.

Tell me you're not still bitter over the fact that Sidious is better than Bane in every facet of life.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, I don't know if you take requests,

No I'm too famous for that.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
but I love the stuff about how people who are laughing and smiling are obviously taking shit super-seriously. Could you go more in-depth about that?




I'm not saying that laughing and smiling equates to taking things super-seriously.

I'm saying we already know Sidious is willing to laugh and smile while doing something that he's serious about doing. I mean even as he killed Opress he was smiling/laughing. Even as he was in the fight of his life against Yoda, he laughed and smiled when he could.

Obviously against opponents like Maul+Opress who are miles and miles below Yoda, he can laugh and smile a heck of a lot more than he could against Yoda. Doesn't mean he's not serious about being there and "kicking their butt" as Filoni would put it. Or "destroying his rivals" as the Official site puts it.

And as has been exhaustively explained to you, using Yoda as a measuring stick for Opress and Maul is a bad idea. No one disputes that Sidious took some of his fight with Yoda casually. The difference/s are that Yoda, unlike the brothers, gave as good as he got and there are plenty of moments where Sidious is taking the fight quite seriously, evincing struggle, strain, and fear. None of that with the brothers, though. They were never a challenge.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, I don't know if you take requests, but I love the stuff about how people who are laughing and smiling are obviously taking shit super-seriously. Could you go more in-depth about that?


Because he laughed at Yoda while he was, like, miles away from him. Cleary that overshadows his consistent looks of frustration, strain and fear throughout his fight with Yoda. Very comparable to his laughing, smiling, pausing and trolling of the brothers throughout the entire fight.

DP,
Savage didn't outpace Ventress. Their saber clashes forced her on the defense and unbalanced her, leaving her vulnerable to a physical attack. Ventress was the one outpacing him by a very noticeable degree (hence all the physical attacks she landed while disarmed). And since we are going by strict canon, prove that Ventress is faster than Fisto. Their performances against Grievous puts them in the same speed category, except Ventress only started outpacing Grievous when she was clearly frustrated (going full throttle) after being put on her ass by Grievous, whereas Fisto was casually outpacing him while fighting with a very calm demeanor. Prove Grievous was better trained during his fight with Ventress. I'd have just as much success in proving Fisto got better as of his fight with Sidious.

You're the only one trying to apply Filoni's comment to certain parts of the fight, which isn't your call to make. Either you accept the comment or you don't. You suggest that Sidious wasn't trying his hardest during their one on one by using out side fights to compare (Maul vs Savage) and Sidious visibly being portrayed as not taking him seriously, which is no different than the logic I'm using with the fight as a whole. Yes, Filoni made that comment, and also regarded and depicted the context of the fight much differently than how Sidious was depicted in his fight against the council members.

Point is, if Sidious wanted to take Savage out with a killing blow, he'd blitz him, and there is absolutely nothing Maul could do to prevent it, given that Mace + Fisto couldn't prevent Sidious from one-shotting saber masters each, unless Maul is a great deal better than Mace, or Savage is vastly faster and more precise than actual saber masters. If Savage is skilled enough in all around combat speed, being precise enough to hold his own against Sidious far better than the B-team, that would make him a better duelist than them (by force using standards) by default, which would contradict the idea of them being saber masters and him not being one, and it wouldn't make sense for Filoni to point out that his strength makes up for his lack of skill.


@Emperordmb, if you're unable to grasp the point of the thread and the arguments in it then don't make comments like that, as it makes you look even more pathetic when you cry and complain when someone puts Bane's feats in proper context, thus making Bane not nearly as powerful as you want him to be. In other words, don't troll and then cry when being trolled.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And as has been exhaustively explained to you, using Yoda as a measuring stick for Opress and Maul is a bad idea.


Why? Yoda's much better than them. So if he can laugh at Yoda while clearly still trying to defeat him, then why not laugh even more at the Maul bros while taking them out.



Originally posted by The_Tempest


The difference/s are that Yoda, unlike the brothers, gave as good as he got

Obviously. Yoda's a far more powerful opponent.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
and there are plenty of moments where Sidious is taking the fight quite seriously, evincing struggle, strain, and fear. None of that with the brothers, though. They were never a challenge.


I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

My point again is- If Sidious can laugh while attempting to defeat such a dangerous foe, then how/why does his laughter mean he's holding back against much lesser foes?




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because he laughed at Yoda while he was, like, miles away from him.



No, not just from miles away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE

At 2:10 he clearly smiles/laughs while in a Saber lock with Yoda.

No amount of walls of text with speculations and interpretations will turn assumptions into facts. This thread is nothing but a fail.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


DP,
Savage didn't outpace Ventress. Their saber clashes forced her on the defense and unbalanced her, leaving her vulnerable to a physical attack. Ventress was the one outpacing him by a very noticeable degree (hence all the physical attacks she landed while disarmed). And since we are going by strict canon, prove that Ventress is faster than Fisto. Their performances against Grievous puts them in the same speed category, except Ventress only started outpacing Grievous when she was clearly frustrated (going full throttle) after being put on her ass by Grievous, whereas Fisto was casually outpacing him while fighting with a very calm demeanor. Prove Grievous was better trained during his fight with Ventress. I'd have just as much success in proving Fisto got better as of his fight with Sidious.


Savage outpaced her when he swung around her to hit her from behind.
When she was disarmed she was using her size and mobility to jump around him. Kenobi was disarmed by Ventress in TCW movie and dodged all her attacks, that doesn't make him faster than her.
Grievous was still trained by Dooku during TCW in Canon. Since he says so to Kenobi in ROTS. But yeah I'll admit it's hard to prove Ventress is faster than Fisto based solely on his 1 fight with Grievous.
I just think Opress is faster and more formidable than Fisto solely based on their fights against Sidious backed by Filoni's comments on that very subject.
Otherwise if you just compare fights with other opponents then everyone seems equal in speed. Because Fisto beats Grievous, Kenobi struggles against Grievous, Kenobi stalemates Maul, Maul fights Windu and Secura together, Windu stalemates/beats Sidious. Or another way- Fisto beats Grievous, Kenobi struggles against Grievous, Kenobi fights Anakin, Anakin fights Dooku, Dooku fights Yoda, Yoda fights Sidious.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're the only one trying to apply Filoni's comment to certain parts of the fight, which isn't your call to make. Either you accept the comment or you don't. You suggest that Sidious wasn't trying his hardest during their one on one by using out side fights to compare (Maul vs Savage) and Sidious visibly being portrayed as not taking him seriously, which is no different than the logic I'm using with the fight as a whole. Yes, Filoni made that comment, and also regarded and depicted the context of the fight much differently than how Sidious was depicted in his fight against the council members.


I'm not applying Filoni's comments just to certain parts of the fight. I'm just applying it to the Whole fight he put up. Why would anyone just apply it to the final 1 on 1? As if Opress hadn't been putting up a fight before that?
That's like ignoring the part where Fisto blocked a few of Sidious's blows, and just looking at the "Sidious stabbed him" part, as if he didn't do any better than Tiin or Kolar.
Filoni's answered the very topic we're discussing a long time ago. So I just don't see why we're still discussing it.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Point is, if Sidious wanted to take Savage out with a killing blow, he'd blitz him, and there is absolutely nothing Maul could do to prevent it, given that Mace + Fisto couldn't prevent Sidious from one-shotting saber masters each, unless Maul is a great deal better than Mace, or Savage is vastly faster and more precise than actual saber masters. If Savage is skilled enough in all around combat speed, being precise enough to hold his own against Sidious far better than the B-team, that would make him a better duelist than them (by force using standards) by default, which would contradict the idea of them being saber masters and him not being one, and it wouldn't make sense for Filoni to point out that his strength makes up for his lack of skill.





Again I'm confused. Why does them being "Saber Masters" make them better than him in a Saber fight, when he's already beaten other reputable Saber Masters in sword fights. And I'm definitely confused how it makes any of them as fast as him?
Filoni never said it's just Savage's "strength" that makes up for his lack of skill. He said he's just all "Rage and Power." Yet Filoni completely accepts Opress as being a very powerful villain whose difficult to beat.



Anyway I do appreciate you putting this down to 2/3 main points. But just doesn't look like we're going to agree on the Opress vs Fisto thing. To me it seems by the same argument of Fisto beating Grievous, you could start putting Fisto as Maul's equal too. Which would just be well over the top IMHO.

Again, there were times Sidious clearly wasn't taking Yoda seriously... but there were many more moments where he visibly was. Not the case with the brothers. Yoda was a challenge, they weren't. If Sidious wanted them dead quickly, as you yourself concede, they'd have died much sooner. That's tantamount to a backhanded concession that he wasn't fighting his hardest.

Don't get me started on the inane notion of "WELL HE WASNT TRYING HIS HARDEST IN FORCE BUT HE WAS IN SABERS BECAUSE REASONS"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, there were times Sidious clearly wasn't taking Yoda seriously...

So you think he could have killed Yoda in those moments he was laughing?

You don't think he was taking Yoda seriously when they were in a Saber lock, because he chuckled?

Originally posted by The_Tempest



Yoda was a challenge, they weren't.


No ones's denying that. But it's got nothing to do with the laughing. Nor does it translate into a B-Team level blitz.

Is Ventress a challenge for Count Dooku? No. Is Ventress competition for Count Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever land even 1 hit on Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever have a chance of defeating or even stalemating Dooku 1 vs 1? No.

So does all of that mean Count Dooku speed blitzes Ventress? Well we've clearly seen the answer to that is No.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
If Sidious wanted them dead quickly, as you yourself concede, they'd have died much sooner. That's tantamount to a backhanded concession that he wasn't fighting his hardest.

I've admitted if he just went all out with Tk/FL from the beginning, then it's very possible the fight would have ended a heck of a lot sooner, probably without Sidious even pulling out a Saber.

But that's also true of his fight with Yoda given he actually KO'd Yoda at the beginning.

It's also true for pretty much every Jedi/Sith who ever faces Grievous.

It's also probably true for that one on one Dooku and Ventress had.

So that's all more down to CIS than anything else. Him being cocky with his Force powers at the beginning of a fight has little to no reflection on the Lightsaber battle that follows.




Originally posted by The_Tempest


Don't get me started on the inane notion of "WELL HE WASNT TRYING HIS HARDEST IN FORCE BUT HE WAS IN SABERS BECAUSE REASONS"


Well he didn't get into an extended Force battle for chuckles, so not sure why he'd get into an extended Saber battle for chuckles. He clearly showed them he can easily Overpower them both combined with The Force. So why didn't he clearly show that during the Saber fight?

You'd have a much better argument if he did.


And again Filoni's flat out said Opress simply put up a better fight than the Jedi Council. So I don't see why we're still going around in circles here, when Filoni has flat out answered the very point we're talking about long long ago.

I mean how often are we fortunate enough to have the Creator/Director address the very point of debate. And yet people still want to argue it


I can only imagine if Filoni said commented on the Fisto/Grievous fight with something like "Fisto performed better against him than Kenobi".. I can only imagine how you and Sidious66 would have declared it as canon fact that Fisto > Kenobi a long time ago had he said anything even remotely like that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So you think he could have killed Yoda in those moments he was laughing?

If you're referring to when Yoda was KO'd or distracted with the Senate pod and Sidious did nothing but laugh, then probably. He at the very least could have pressed his advantage but did nothing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You don't think he was taking Yoda seriously when they were in a Saber lock, because he chuckled?

Not when the next second he's snarling, squirming, and straining.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No ones's denying that. But it's got nothing to do with the laughing. Nor does it translate into a B-Team level blitz.

If you concede they're not a challenge, DP, and you concede that he probably could have crushed them outright with the Force... how can you logically infer that he was going "all out"?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is Ventress a challenge for Count Dooku? No. Is Ventress competition for Count Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever land even 1 hit on Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever have a chance of defeating or even stalemating Dooku 1 vs 1? No.

So does all of that mean Count Dooku speed blitzes Ventress? Well we've clearly seen the answer to that is No.

Because the gap between the brothers and Sidious is more profound than the one between Ventress and Dooku?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've admitted if he just went all out with Tk/FL from the beginning, then it's very possible the fight would have ended a heck of a lot sooner, probably without Sidious even pulling out a Saber.

But that's also true of his fight with Yoda given he actually KO'd Yoda at the beginning.

Yup.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's also true for pretty much every Jedi/Sith who ever faces Grievous.

It's also probably true for that one on one Dooku and Ventress had.

So that's all more down to CIS than anything else. Him being cocky with his Force powers at the beginning of a fight has little to no reflection on the Lightsaber battle that follows.

Indeed. The difference is that the power disparity is actually addressed in the duel and by Filoni. We don't see Sidious conveniently forget to use the Force against the brothers. We see him use it, pin them helplessly, and let them go. He's courting battle, unlike the examples of PIS you cite.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he didn't get into an extended Force battle for chuckles, so not sure why he'd get into an extended Saber battle for chuckles. He clearly showed them he can easily Overpower them both combined with The Force. So why didn't he clearly show that during the Saber fight?

You'd have a much better argument if he did.

...Because the whole point was that he could have killed them quickly and effortlessly. That's why he let them go.

Your argument is that Sidious wanted them dead, could have done it with the Force but didn't for some mysterious reason, and then fought for his life in a lightsaber duel against two challenging opponents. Then you go back and concede that they're not challenges and he could have killed them without touching his lightsaber, but didn't because shut up.

It's an errant argument that contradicts itself on a number of levels. Mine is much more straightforward: if he wanted them dead quickly, he'd have killed them quickly. The fact that he didn't kill them quickly indicates that he was courting battle and wanting to have some fun before the inevitable.

And behold: no citations of PIS, no contradictions, no ass-pulls. Simple, straightforward, and supported by the source material.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And again Filoni's flat out said Opress simply put up a better fight than the Jedi Council. So I don't see why we're still going around in circles here, when Filoni has flat out answered the very point we're talking about long long ago.

I mean how often are we fortunate enough to have the Creator/Director address the very point of debate. And yet people still want to argue it


I can only imagine if Filoni said commented on the Fisto/Grievous fight with something like "Fisto performed better against him than Kenobi".. I can only imagine how you and Sidious66 would have declared it as canon fact that Fisto > Kenobi a long time ago had he said anything even remotely like that.

Cool story. I know you really want to wank Obi-Wan. That's fine. But this whole "LOL HE'S NUMBER FOUR!!!!1!" has never been supported. He's no Yoda, he's no Mace, and he's no prodigy like Anakin. He's just an extremely skilled warrior, like the rest of the Jedi Council.

The gap between Obi-Wan and the big boys is just that big. Sorry.

Originally posted by Arhael
No amount of walls of text with speculations and interpretations will turn assumptions into facts. This thread is nothing but a fail.

This from the guy who declares Vaapad non-canon and then turns around and cites Ganner Rhysode's last stand.

Between that and your persistent argument that "IT'S NOT UNUSUAL AT ALL FOR PEOPLE FIGHTING DESPERATELY FOR THEIR LIVES TO SMILE, LAUGH, AND OTHERWISE EXPRESS LEISURE," I'd say your perspective is... skewed at best.

But while they might not be sensible, they sure are funny, so I encourage you to continue at your earliest convenience.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This from the guy who declares Vaapad non-canon and then turns around and cites Ganner Rhysode's last stand.

Between that and your persistent argument that "IT'S NOT UNUSUAL AT ALL FOR PEOPLE FIGHTING DESPERATELY FOR THEIR LIVES TO SMILE, LAUGH, AND OTHERWISE EXPRESS LEISURE," I'd say your perspective is... skewed at best.

But while they might not be sensible, they sure are funny, so I encourage you to continue at your earliest convenience.
Who cares who it is coming from? Doesn't change the fact that all you do here is posting walls of speculations and assumptions that account to nothing. Sidious laughs and grins during fight with Yoda despite the fact that he tried to run away first. It is within Sidious' insane personality to be a clown, when there is a threat to his life.

Irony is that you criticize my logic without even realizing how stupid is your claim that Sidious wasn't fighting for his life. Of course he was! A tiny mistake could result in him getting bisected by either brother, the threat was constant and there was a chance of him dying at any point during fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know you really want to wank Obi-Wan.


LOL Since when?

Originally posted by Arhael
Who cares who it is coming from?

Because what is and what isn't canon doesn't matter when it suits your argument?

Originally posted by Arhael
Doesn't change the fact that all you do here is posting walls of speculations and assumptions that account to nothing. Sidious laughs and grins during fight with Yoda despite the fact that he tried to run away first. It is within Sidious' insane personality to be a clown, when there is a threat to his life.

We see Sidious treat Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know he's a legitimate threat. No such luck for the brothers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Irony is that you criticize my logic without even realizing how stupid is your claim that Sidious wasn't fighting for his life. Of course he was! A tiny mistake could result in him getting bisected by either brother, the threat was constant and there was a chance of him dying at any point during fight.

Irony is that one could apply this logic to Sheev and a flight of goddamn stairs. One tiny mistake could result in a broken neck. facepalm

Lol @ Sidious laughing = toying xD

@tempest, just deal with it already, Savage is much better than those fools Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, of course he can tag your precious Sheev.

Lol your posts Temp. That's exactly why you are my favorite poster.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's exactly why you are my favorite poster.

No, because you both are Sidious fanboys.

Any notion that Sids wasn't taking Yoda seriously is pretty hilarious and stupid all wrapped into one. He clearly took Yoda seriously, in fact, he tried to run from him he took him so serious.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@tempest, just deal with it already, Savage is much better than those fools Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, of course he can tag your precious Sheev.
Lol, is that why he got killed without Sidious even looking at him?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Lol, is that why he got killed without Sidious even looking at him?

LOL At least he blocked some strikes first.

Filoni flat out said Opress put up a better fight than those Jedi Council stooges. The point has clearly been addressed by the Supervising Director.

So move on, deal with it and stop grasping at straws.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because what is and what isn't canon doesn't matter when it suits your argument?

In the reply where I said that I gave other reasons apart from that, so doesn't really matter.



We see Sidious not treating Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know it is no different for the brothers.

^
That was my counter argument to make things even.

Now this:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111137054/3971144-sdfsdfsd.jpg

Maul being able to fight two opponents one of which is Sidious' near equal is an actual feat. It's not a speculation of vague quotes, it's a legitimate feat, which non of your assumptions and speculations will get read off. It is a proof enough that "never wavering from his position of superiority" would require Sidious to fight best of his ability. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Arhael
In the reply where I said that I gave other reasons apart from that, so doesn't really matter.

http://images.topix.com/gallery/up-H7507Q9056MJBPVG.jpg

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Arhael
We see Sidious not treating Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know it is no different for the brothers.

^
That was my counter argument to make things even.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4e8c4b99eab8eaea1300009b/why-steve-jobs-was-disappointed-in-obama.jpg

Except... it's not even, since Sidious actually showed signs of struggle, strain, and fear when he fought Yoda.

Originally posted by Arhael
Now this:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111137054/3971144-sdfsdfsd.jpg

Maul being able to fight two opponents one of which is Sidious' near equal is an actual feat. It's not a speculation of vague quotes, it's a legitimate feat, which non of your assumptions and speculations will get read off. It is a proof enough that "never wavering from his position of superiority" would require Sidious to fight best of his ability. Deal with it.

http://robertsthoughts2.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/e05c2-346104-6-20100416005410.jpg

Nice ABC argument, Arhael! Maul blocked a strike from Mace Windu, so he's in Palpatine's league now? Your arguments and insinuations are irretrievably moronic, though they do make for a fine comedy routine. Encore, encore!

To sum it up: from start to finish, Sidious is smiling and laughing his ass off, having the time of his life. This is not the behavior of someone desperately fighting for their lives. And Filoni's already confirmed that the brothers can't even compete with him, meaning it wouldn't warrant Sidious's best efforts anyway.

Palpatine's better by miles and miles and miles and he wasn't fighting his hardest.

http://i.imgur.com/fU9jYP0.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Except... it's not even, since Sidious actually showed signs of struggle, strain, and fear when he fought Yoda.

Yeah except no one's claiming the Brothers = Yoda.

Stop ignoring the point that Sidious laughed his ass off against Yoda, by diverting to another topic of Yoda being a far more powerful opponent than the Brothers. In fact Yoda being such a struggle for Sidious is actually clear proof that Sidious does laugh while NOT fooling around.

So answer the question, does Sidious's laughter while being in a Saber lock with Yoda mean he was toying with Yoda whilst in the middle of a Saber fight with him?

Don't divert the topic to who he struggled more against, because we know you're a smart debator like that. Answer the question at hand.




Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nice ABC argument, Arhael! Maul blocked a strike from Mace Windu, so he's in Palpatine's league now? Your arguments and insinuations are irretrievably moronic, though they do make for a fine comedy routine. Encore, encore!

Oh come on Tempest, I know you're not actually naive enough to think that whole fight consisted of 1 strike and 1 block. All 3 of those combatants were in different positions in all 3 scenes of the fight we saw. That fight was carrying on while Dooku was subduing Kenobi and killing another Jedi.

So yeah if Mace (Sidious's near equal in Sabers) could Blitz Maul, he certainly would have. Mace certainly isn't one to toy, or to hold back against a Sith Lord.

And I like how you keep trying to exaggerate our arguments in an attempt to make us seem stupid. Taking our argument from "Sidious doesn't blitz Maul/Opress," to "Maul is in Palpatine's league!"
Like I said you're a smart debator like that. But your fandom is blinding your logic in this scenario.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Filoni's already confirmed that the brothers can't even compete with him, meaning it wouldn't warrant Sidious's best efforts anyway.




I do find it amusing how you pick and choose Filoni's comments as you see fit.

If you want to go by Filoni's comments, then this debate is over, as he's answered it a long time ago. Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the Jedi Council. End of.

Once you accept that confirmed fact, then and then only can you rave about how superior Sidious is to Maul + Opress, and I doubt anyone's going to argue it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Concession accepted.

That was no concession. This cliche with claiming concession, when there is non is getting old.


In fight with Yoda the only times we see strain on Sidious' face is during saber locks, he happened to be grinning at the same time. During saber lock with brothers Sidious grins and even laughs but at the same time shaking with strain. During saber lock with Maul Sidious has serious strain on his face.

Another moment of strain on his face is during lightning contest, he happened to be grinning bigger part of it, the rest of it was expression of pain rather than fear. Maul and Sidious did not have lightning contest, so irrelevant.

With Yoda the only times we see fear on his face is when he tried to run away before the fight even started and when before he dodged the platform. Also, Sidious showed no fear whatsoever during fight with Windu until he got disarmed. Not expressing fear during fight with brothers doesn't tell anything and fear does not always have facial expression anyway

You are really grasping at straws here. Regardless, judging performance by facial expressions is as idiotic as it gets.


There is nothing wrong with ABC argument. It doesn't work only when evaluating characters with marginal performance difference, where victory depends either on circumstances or character's ability to capitalize on weaknesses of his opponent. Classical example would be Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin.

ABC logic works greatly, when we need to establish, if characters combat prowess is relatively close or not.

Good example is AotC. Dooku beat both Anakin and Kenobi. Because Yoda made Dooku run away, it is obvious that he would beat Anakin and Kenobi with even more ease.

If Sidious as you say "miles and miles" better than Maul, so would be Windu. Maul being able to engage Windu (who beat Sidious) and Secura at the same time is proof enough that Sidious wasn't heaving easy time and needed to work hard in order to constantly dominate Maul. ABC logic works perfectly here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except no one's claiming the Brothers = Yoda.

Stop ignoring the point that Sidious laughed his ass off against Yoda, by diverting to another topic of Yoda being a far more powerful opponent than the Brothers. In fact Yoda being such a struggle for Sidious is actually clear proof that Sidious does laugh while NOT fooling around.

So answer the question, does Sidious's laughter while being in a Saber lock with Yoda mean he was toying with Yoda whilst in the middle of a Saber fight with him?

Don't divert the topic to who he struggled more against, because we know you're a smart debator like that. Answer the question at hand.

DP, this is pretty simple. No one's accusing you of claiming that the brothers are equal to Yoda. That said, the reason we know for a fact that Yoda was a struggle for Sidious is because Sidious showed signs of struggling with Yoda. There weren't signs that he struggled with the brothers and everything from the actual fight to director commentary points to the duel being little more than a breeze walk.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come on Tempest, I know you're not actually naive enough to think that whole fight consisted of 1 strike and 1 block. All 3 of those combatants were in different positions in all 3 scenes of the fight we saw. That fight was carrying on while Dooku was subduing Kenobi and killing another Jedi.

So yeah if Mace (Sidious's near equal in Sabers) could Blitz Maul, he certainly would have. Mace certainly isn't one to toy, or to hold back against a Sith Lord.

And I like how you keep trying to exaggerate our arguments in an attempt to make us seem stupid. Taking our argument from "Sidious doesn't blitz Maul/Opress," to "Maul is in Palpatine's league!"
Like I said you're a smart debator like that. But your fandom is blinding your logic in this scenario.

And Savage Opress took on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, but I seem to recall you dismissing that out of hand, shrugging your shoulders, and arguing that Obi-Wan would still take Opress to the curb alone. Maul fending off Mace for an unknown period of time doesn't change anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I do find it amusing how you pick and choose Filoni's comments as you see fit.

If you want to go by Filoni's comments, then this debate is over, as he's answered it a long time ago. Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the Jedi Council. End of.

Once you accept that confirmed fact, then and then only can you rave about how superior Sidious is to Maul + Opress, and I doubt anyone's going to argue it.

Sorry bro. Sidious went straight for the kill against the B-Team, he toyed with Maul and Opress, and nothing Filoni says translates to Opress's superiority over the members of the B-Team.

None of them can compete with Sidious. Sorry.

Originally posted by Arhael
That was no concession. This cliche with claiming concession, when there is non is getting old.

You were called out on a double standard, you acknowledge it by refusing to defend it and deflecting to "other examples." Your concession is implicit, but it is there. You just don't have the balls to admit it, which is cool.

Originally posted by Arhael
In fight with Yoda the only times we see strain on Sidious' face is during saber locks, he happened to be grinning at the same time.

Nah. He screams, hisses, snarls, but he doesn't grin in his blade lock with Yoda other than the first one in the Chancellor's office.

Originally posted by Arhael
During saber lock with brothers Sidious grins and even laughs but at the same time shaking with strain.

He doesn't shake with strain on-screen.

Originally posted by Arhael
During saber lock with Maul Sidious has serious strain on his face.

And you'll note that that's the one time he's visibly not smiling or laughing. And then he ends the duel seconds later.

Originally posted by Arhael
Another moment of strain on his face is during lightning contest, he happened to be grinning bigger part of it, the rest of it was expression of pain rather than fear. Maul and Sidious did not have lightning contest, so irrelevant.

They didn't have a lightning contest because when Sidious used lightning, Maul could do nothing but beg for mercy. {That's because, unlike Yoda, Maul isn't a challenge for Sidious.} And that wasn't pain: the lightning wasn't touching Sidious when he reared back in fear.

Originally posted by Arhael
With Yoda the only times we see fear on his face is when he tried to run away before the fight even started and when before he dodged the platform.

Which is twice more than with the brothers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Sidious showed no fear whatsoever during fight with Windu until he got disarmed.

He also showed no signs of joy or pleasure.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not expressing fear during fight with brothers doesn't tell anything and fear does not always have facial expression anyway

Yup. And if Sidious's expression were blank, you'd have a point. But people who are afraid of a person or experience typically aren't smiling and laughing when confronted by those things. Common sense ftw!

Originally posted by Arhael
You are really grasping at straws here. Regardless, judging performance by facial expressions is as idiotic as it gets.

No, what's idiotic as it gets is reading facial expressions of joy, leisure, and pleasure and concluding that there's fear, struggle, and panic at play. Which is your argument in a nutshell.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing wrong with ABC argument. It doesn't work only when evaluating characters with marginal performance difference, where victory depends either on circumstances or character's ability to capitalize on weaknesses of his opponent. Classical example would be Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin.

ABC logic works greatly, when we need to establish, if characters combat prowess is relatively close or not.

Good example is AotC. Dooku beat both Anakin and Kenobi. Because Yoda made Dooku run away, it is obvious that he would beat Anakin and Kenobi with even more ease.

If Sidious as you say "miles and miles" better than Maul, so would be Windu. Maul being able to engage Windu (who beat Sidious) and Secura at the same time is proof enough that Sidious wasn't heaving easy time and needed to work hard in order to constantly dominate Maul. ABC logic works perfectly here.

Cool story. Here are some more examples of ABC logic: Barriss held her own against a pissed off Anakin, who is equal to Obi-Wan, who held his own against Opress and Maul at the same time. Ergo, Barriss is equal to Opress and Maul! In ROTS, Dooku defeated Obi-Wan but couldn't defeat Anakin, so Anakin must defeat Obi-Wan. Whoops!

We could keep going, but the point makes itself. The bottom line is that these guys can't compete with Sidious per Word of God and Sidious was enjoying himself the whole time. Guys who try to initially run from fights they know they have a decent shot of losing (Sidious in ROTS) tend not to seek out those fights.

Your argument fails on every level. Accept Sidious's vast superiority and move on with your life, my son.

Barriss overpowered Ahsoka, who was stalemating 4-armed Grievous. 4-armed Grievous>2-arm Grievous, who crushed Obi-Wan in Utapu arc. Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in RotS, and Anakin defeated Dooku.

Thus, Bariss>>>>Dooku. :3

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL At least he blocked some strikes first.

Filoni flat out said Opress put up a better fight than those Jedi Council stooges. The point has clearly been addressed by the Supervising Director.

So move on, deal with it and stop grasping at straws.


I'm still waiting to hear why you don't apply Filoni's comment to Opress's one on one against Sidious. You suggested that Sidious could have killed him faster than he did by using Savage's other duels against inferior opponents. You were using outside feats to determine how seriously Sidious was taking Savage and how fast he could have killed him if he wanted to end him quickly. Did Filoni give you the authority to determine which parts of the fight his comment applies and which parts it doesn't?

Again, to even insinuate that Sidious didn't take Yoda seriously is borderline shortbus material.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again, to even insinuate that Sidious didn't take Yoda seriously is borderline shortbus material.
Lmao

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, this is pretty simple. No one's accusing you of claiming that the brothers are equal to Yoda. That said, the reason we know for a fact that Yoda was a struggle for Sidious is because Sidious showed signs of struggling with Yoda. There weren't signs that he struggled with the brothers and everything from the actual fight to director commentary points to the duel being little more than a breeze walk.


We seem to be on 2 completely different pages here.

Nobody's arguing Sidious was having difficulty with Yoda but not with the Brothers. What we're saying is IF Sidious laughs against an opponent as difficult as Yoda, then clearly him Laughing doesn't Equate to him Toying.




Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Savage Opress took on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, but I seem to recall you dismissing that out of hand, shrugging your shoulders, and arguing that Obi-Wan would still take Opress to the curb alone. Maul fending off Mace for an unknown period of time doesn't change anything.


Yes but no one's arguing Obi-Wan (or Anakin for that matter) is going to Speed Blitz Opress. That would be very silly seen as he's engaged them both together.

Likewise Maul fending off Mace and Secura together (even for a short time) certainly suggests Windu isn't speed blitzing Maul. So if Windu isn't, given the whole dark side superconducting loop thing seems to be out of canon now, it's pretty unlikely Sidious would Speed blitz Maul, given how much of a near equal Mace was to Sidious in Sabers.




Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sorry bro. Sidious went straight for the kill against the B-Team, he toyed with Maul and Opress, and nothing Filoni says translates to Opress's superiority over the members of the B-Team.

None of them can compete with Sidious. Sorry.


So Filoni giving credit to Opress for putting up a better fight than the B-Team doesn't translate into Opress's superiority over the members of the B-Team?

Neither can Ventress compete with Count Dooku - "You're no match for me without your monster.." yet he still never Saber/Speed blitzed her.

Not being proper competition does not = speed blitzing bro.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm still waiting to hear why you don't apply Filoni's comment to Opress's one on one against Sidious. You suggested that Sidious could have killed him faster than he did by using Savage's other duels against inferior opponents. You were using outside feats to determine how seriously Sidious was taking Savage and how fast he could have killed him if he wanted to end him quickly. Did Filoni give you the authority to determine which parts of the fight his comment applies and which parts it doesn't?


I'm applying his comment to THE WHOLE FIGHT Opress put up.

At least we can all agree that Savage Opress would ragdoll Mace Windu

@tempest Look Savage was toying with Sidious, because he shut his lightsaber...

Lightsaber closed 1

http://i.hizliresim.com/4R3LQp.jpg

Lightsaber closed 2

http://i.hizliresim.com/q2a4pB.jpg

DP, so you take back your original notion regarding Savage's one on one with Sidious, and believe Savage lasted as long as he did because he's just that good and not because Sidious purposely prolonged it for his own amusement, since Filoni didn't outright state it (although he heavily implied it), and because he wasn't specific with the statement you keep harping on? So Savage can put up a better fight and last longer against Sidious than he can against Maul?

You can't compare a few moments of laughter during his fight with Yoda, because they were very brief and completely overshadowed by his consistent signs of frustration, strain/struggling, and fear. Not to mention that majority of his laughter happened when he was at a safe distance from Yoda and continuously throwing senate pods, which had Yoda distracted by dodging. His laughter at Yoda was more as a tactic to try to cause Yoda to get frustrated and lose his concentration (you know, EU's dun moch lol). Such tactics weren't necessary to defeat the bros, considering he could have ended them with the force alone, as you admitted. Plus he was smiling when the brothers couldn't even see his face. Obviously he was just having a good time and enjoying the fight just as Filoni outright stated. Furthermore, his smiling and laughter isn't the only indication that he wasn't taking them seriously. His calmness, relaxation, and constant pauses are other indications, along with the fact that he deactivated his sabers mid-duel. As I said, Sidious was fighting the brothers completely out of his style; he wasn't aggressive at all. And as Tempest said, why would Sidious hold back his force powers and then decide to try his absolute hardest with his sabers?

"Unleashing his full fury" against the council members isn't a term used to describe someone enjoying a fight against his opponents, it implies a blood lust intent; and being "fueled by the dark side" is just a fact about Sidious, otherwise he wouldn't be able to enjoy his fight with a very large muscular zabrak and his other zabrak brother, both of whom are known for being stronger and more durable than a human, let alone an elderly one. Just pointing that out before you try to compare the two different statements as if they both reflect Sidious's mindset, when, in fact, only one of them does--the one that applies to the council members.

If you can, address these points logically, or let's call quits.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You were called out on a double standard, you acknowledge it by refusing to defend it and deflecting to "other examples." Your concession is implicit, but it is there. You just don't have the balls to admit it, which is cool.

That's not double standard. Mentioning Ganner Rysode laugh doesn't need to be canon to know that characters/people can be portrayed laughing, while performing their best. Laughing is not a feat, it doesn't need to be canon to prove my point. I can with the same success throw in a bunch of real life examples, if that will make you feel better.


Indeed, he doesn't grin in second blade lock. Still does in first one, so your dismissal is really not a dismissal.


He clearly does. It is especially noticeable on how his cloak ripples at that moment, but if you choose not to see it, fine.


Irrelevant.


Prove it is fear.
"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain." - Sidious did same thing in Force unleashed. Attributed to pain.


Sidious enjoying himself at best proves that he was more confident, when fighting brothers, than when he fought Windu or Yoda. Doesn't prove he held back, quit speculating.


There is, also, such thing called Dun Moch. Anyway, facial expression don't mean shit, you can do your hardest in a fight and at the same time enjoy and laugh, did it myself.



Bottom line Maul deserves more credit than you give him. Sidious is not "miles and miles" above Maul as proven by Maul's performance against Windu.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP, so you take back your original notion regarding Savage's one on one with Sidious, and believe Savage lasted as long as he did because he's just that good and not because Sidious purposely prolonged it for his own amusement, since Filoni didn't outright state it (although he heavily implied it), and because he wasn't specific with the statement you keep harping on? So Savage can put up a better fight and last longer against Sidious than he can against Maul?


Hey? No I admit Sidious was pretty relaxed and taking his time killing Opress in their 1 vs 1.

What I don't buy is that negates the whole rest of the battle Opress had put up before then.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You can't compare a few moments of laughter during his fight with Yoda, because they were very brief and completely overshadowed by his consistent signs of frustration, strain/struggling, and fear.


Again, obviously he'll struggle a hell of a lot against someone whose his Equal (or near Equal at least).

But that doesn't change the fact that when he's not straining he laughed, in a fight that was clearly difficult for him.

Hence his laughter doesn't mean he's toying.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not to mention that majority of his laughter happened when he was at a safe distance from Yoda and continuously throwing senate pods, which had Yoda distracted by dodging.


He was smiling (and happy) right at the onset of the Saber fight. He was also laughing when they were in a Saber lock. Again I admit he couldn't laugh the whole time, because Yoda really pushed him to his limit at times. But the point stands, that his whole demeanor of laughter and smiley faces doesn't mean he's toying.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
His laughter at Yoda was more as a tactic to try to cause Yoda to get frustrated and lose his concentration (you know, EU's dun moch lol). Such tactics weren't necessary to defeat the bros, considering he could have ended them with the force alone, as you admitted. Plus he was smiling when the brothers couldn't even see his face. Obviously he was just having a good time and enjoying the fight just as Filoni outright stated.


That's a good theory, one you should have brought up a lot earlier. But it is just speculation, and contradicted by the Official Site which also outright states that Sidious enjoyed engaging Yoda.

So that was the real reason for his smile, his opportunity to defeat Yoda, knowing that even if he just stalemates him, he's essentially won.

Besides even Dun Moch can be used against inferior opponents. Seen as Dooku used Dun Moch against AOTC Kenobi.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Furthermore, his smiling and laughter isn't the only indication that he wasn't taking them seriously. His calmness, relaxation, and constant pauses are other indications, along with the fact that he deactivated his sabers mid-duel. As I said, Sidious was fighting the brothers completely out of his style; he wasn't aggressive at all. And as Tempest said, why would Sidious hold back his force powers and then decide to try his absolute hardest with his sabers?


He seemed quite calm and relaxed when the Jedi Council came for him. He let them ignite their Sabers before he took out his own Saber. He had pauses in his fight against Mace. Pauses are all apart of combat. No one just continuously non-stop strikes at each other.

He deactivated his Sabers to Kick floor Opress, and Tk KO Maul. He just switched combat tactic. As Marco has pointed out Opress also had his Saber deactivated at one point when he ran at Sidious to knock him off the balcony.

Hey? Filoni specifically stated that they took Sidious's fighting style straight from the movies and expanded on it.


As for why would Sidious hold back in Force powers but not in Sabers, well as I've already pointed out, you can reverse that logic: Why would Sidious make the Saber fight look like a fight, yet he never made the Force struggle look like a fight?

Even IF Sidious was TOYING(a word never actually used by Filoni in all his countless commentaries of the fight) at times during the Saber fight, that would still not prove Sidious can speed blitz Maul. But the fact that Filoni clarified Opress's superior performance over the B-Team, and the fact that Windu (Sidious's near equal in Sword fighting) could not speed blitz Maul, is all pretty solid proof that Sidious can not speed blitz Maul or Maul+Opress, (at least in official canon).


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"Unleashing his full fury" against the council members isn't a term used to describe someone enjoying a fight against his opponents, it implies a blood lust intent; and being "fueled by the dark side" is just a fact about Sidious, otherwise he wouldn't be able to enjoy his fight with a very large muscular zabrak and his other zabrak brother, both of whom are known for being stronger and more durable than a human, let alone an elderly one. Just pointing that out before you try to compare the two different statements as if they both reflect Sidious's mindset, when, in fact, only one of them does--the one that applies to the council members.

Of course he unleashed his full fury on the Council. I mean he did straight up kill them. We don't need a quote for that.

But when you say he can't enjoy that you're wrong. In the EU (your "unleashing full fury" quote is from the eu) Windu enjoys the thrill of the battle. And as of official canon, Sidious enjoyed his battle with Yoda, whilst obviously using his full dark side power.

The Offiical Canon quote of Sidious's intentions with Maul is "seeing him as a rival to be destroyed", certainly doesn't suggest he's there to mess around, nor do any of Filoni's comments about Sidious intentions for going there and fighting them. In fact Filoni even describes the battle at one point as "this legitimate fight."




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you can, address these points logically, or let's call quits.


I've tried my best to be as logical as possible with all the points you've raised. But I know your not going to accept any of them.

And I'm just never going to buy the Maul/Opress duo being no better than The B-Team against Sidious. I've seen no evidence of that at all.

I mean I fully admit after all of Filoni's comments that Maul and Opress (even combined) were never any real competition for Sidious. But I also stick by Filoni's views that even Opress performed better than the B-Team.

So I see the Sidious vs Maul (or Sidious vs Maul+Opress) fight as more of a Dooku vs Ventress type thing, than a Sidious vs Fisto situation.

Ventress on her own was never a threat to Count Dooku ("you're no match for me without your monster". She was never able to "touch" Dooku or give him a proper challenge. She Ultimately was never Competiton for him. There's a tremendous gap in their force powers as well.

Yet despite all that, in their 1 vs 1 Ventress did not go down without putting up a fight. She was not Saber/Speed Blitzed. But the difference in power and combat prowess between Dooku and Ventress was clearly large.

Originally posted by Arhael



There is, also, such thing called Dun Moch. Anyway, facial expression don't mean shit, you can do your hardest in a fight and at the same time enjoy and laugh, did it myself.




Yep, my irritating old grappling partner has done that to me, just to put me off and because he knew he was superior to me, and knew he was going to win. Doesn't mean he wasn't trying. In fact he always tried to take me out as quick as possible.

And there's plenty of examples with real life boxers and other fighters. Sometimes fighters just wana be cocky about their superiority.

Your right that it shows more confidence than anything else. Clearly Sidious was more confident against surviving Yoda's assault when he was at a distance, and that's when he was laughing his head off. Doesn't mean he stopped trying, or started toying, or could of ended Yoda at any time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yep, my irritating old grappling partner has done that to me, just to put me off and because he knew he was superior to me, and knew he was going to win. Doesn't mean he wasn't trying. In fact he always tried to take me out as quick as possible.

And there's plenty of examples with real life boxers and other fighters. Sometimes fighters just wana be cocky about their superiority.

Your right that it shows more confidence than anything else. Clearly Sidious was more confident against surviving Yoda's assault when he was at a distance, and that's when he was laughing his head off. Doesn't mean he stopped trying, or started toying, or could of ended Yoda at any time.



You don't even need to address "why Sidious held back on Force powers". In every single fight of SW Force attacks are used only occasionally or not used at all. The only power he didn't use during fight is lightning but we know from cut scene that he did use it off screen. If anything Sidious used Force attacks more often than he did against Yoda and Sidious.

It implies that openly throwing Force attack right and left is not a wise tactic in SW.

Btw, how is ''enjoying himself'' means toying ? You can always enjoy yourself in a good fight.

People who aren't fearless and/or Bloodknights don't enjoy fights where they have a high chance of dying.

Because, you know. Most people don't want to die.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
People who aren't fearless and/or Bloodknights don't enjoy fights where they have a high chance of dying.

Because, you know. Most people don't want to die.





http://nerdrating.com/files/2014/01/43689-Christian-Bale-dafuq-wtf-gif-4Vsk.gif



http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mde5awWBdc1r1gapro1_400.gif



Another backhanded concession. I graciously accept.

http://media.tumblr.com/3b25f7c960871fe03a2df34172a4ad2c/tumblr_inline_n5yenpyD2l1rxfhu4.gif



Nope. Filoni says Maul "is not nearly as powerful" as Sidious and that he and Opress combined don't qualify as "competition."

It's time to board the Logic Train, Arhael. Even your confederate DP has been forced to submit to my will.

I win, as always.

That's a lot of weird faces you've put there Tempest.

All the talk of how much Sidious is above Maul/Opress aside, you hoping Maul shows up in Rebels?

Filoni did not say Opress and Maul combined are not competition, they were, that's why the fight took so long for him to finish.

Kenobi was not nearly as powerful as Anakin, should I remind you what happened?

One does not win an argument with funny gifs and biased speculations. You proved nothing, the end.

Are you mad? You sound mad.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's a lot of weird faces you've put there Tempest.

They capture my feelings perfectly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
All the talk of how much Sidious is above Maul/Opress aside, you hoping Maul shows up in Rebels?

No.



He sure did.



They weren't.



Nah, he was just goofing around.



Yeah, Anakin lost. Unlike Sidious. excellent



One certainly doesn't win with constant backpedaling and opinions that directly contradict source material and Word of God. You lose bro, Sheev pwns.



He's enraged.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


No.


You just don't want him to appear on Tv again? Or you just don't want to see him in any medium again?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You just don't want him to appear on Tv again? Or you just don't want to see him in any medium again?

Putting him in Rebels would be stupid as hell thematically and narratively and just reek of pure fanservice. Rebels is a Firefly-esque show about a a dysfunctional "family" comprised of ragtag dissidents in the galactic backwater trying to get by under an oppressive regime with which they inevitably come into conflict. These guys aren't that important to justify the presence of Maul, who comes from a totally different story.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Putting him in Rebels would be stupid as hell thematically and narratively and just reek of pure fanservice. Rebels is a Firefly-esque show about a a dysfunctional "family" comprised of ragtag dissidents in the galactic backwater trying to get by under an oppressive regime with which they inevitably come into conflict. These guys aren't that important to justify the presence of Maul, who comes from a totally different story.

They're starting off that way. But this crew is eventually going to be an important set up into the start of the Rebellion.

In terms of the time frame though, they would not get a better opportunity to finish off loose ends from TCW IMHO.

Let's just pretend something like Old Wounds happened and forget about it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Putting him in Rebels would be stupid as hell thematically and narratively and just reek of pure fanservice. Rebels is a Firefly-esque show about a a dysfunctional "family" comprised of ragtag dissidents in the galactic backwater trying to get by under an oppressive regime with which they inevitably come into conflict. These guys aren't that important to justify the presence of Maul, who comes from a totally different story.


Also ANH Vader would apparently destroy them all in seconds, Dahell will maul do except make them run?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Let's just pretend something like Old Wounds happened and forget about it.

And what do people who watched the cartoons but never read any EU stuff pretend?

Originally posted by Selenial
Also ANH Vader would apparently destroy them all in seconds, Dahell will maul do except make them run?


If he does come into it, it would obviously be 1 arc probably involving Kenobi, and with the Rebels crew somehow involved in the background.

Besides who says Maul would just attack the Rebels crew for no reason now? They may just come across him somewhere/somehow, not realzing who/what he is, and then other Big players get involved.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They're starting off that way. But this crew is eventually going to be an important set up into the start of the Rebellion.

In terms of the time frame though, they would not get a better opportunity to finish off loose ends from TCW IMHO.


Movies?

Keep Maul the hell away from Rebels.

I bet he'll be no match for Ezra's slingshot.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Movies?


They would never do that (I don't think). Because it would confuse people who've seen the movies, but not watched the cartoons.

They will always look at it from a business point of view like this (where > means more important):

Movie audience > Live Action Tv audience >/= Animated Tv audience > Novel readers > Comic book readers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They would never do that (I don't think). Because it would confuse people who've seen the movies, but not watched the cartoons.

They will always look at it from a business point of view like this (where > means more important):

Movie audience > Live Action Tv audience >/= Animated Tv audience > Novel readers > Comic book readers.


I think any fan willing to pay money to go see the movies, would be a big enough fan to be aware of the cartoons. I mean, they introduced Grievous in ROTS as if viewers already knew about him.

Regardless, a brief flash back as to how he survived would do. Would you rather that, or him randomly appearing in Rebels, and then Kenobi most likely coming to save the day just to go back into hiding? Other than Vader or Tarkin making brief appearances Sidious-style (via holograms), I think having the big shots show up in Rebels would be stupid, especially jedi like Kenobi or Yoda who vowed to hide until the time is right, and I'm almost positive that if they bring Maul in Rebels, they will bring Kenobi in it as well. The whole rise of the Empire is as bad as it gets, and Kenobi coming out of hiding to deal with Maul, a far lesser threat to the galaxy as a whole than the empire, would contradict Kenobi's purpose of exiling himself. Besides, do you want to see a goofy looking Maul? I mean, the animation is straight for a younger audience, but nowhere near as good as the animation for TCW. That's why I rather not even see Vader making an appearance at all.

Do you know of any good way of how'd they come about bringing Maul into the picture?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I think any fan willing to pay money to go see the movies, would be a big enough fan to be aware of the cartoons. I mean, they introduced Grievous in ROTS as if viewers already knew about him.


I'd say the difference there is Grievous was a new character to the movies, and not one resurrected from a previous film.

I think many SW Movie fans will be aware of the cartoons and Maul's resurrection. But not your general movie audience.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, a brief flash back as to how he survived would do.

Possibly.

Just not sure how accepting audiences would be of that. Especially given the hate towards the PT, (TPM in particular). Could be cool though I guess. But would we lose Sam Witwer's voice? I loved the way he voiced Maul.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Would you rather that, or him randomly appearing in Rebels, and then Kenobi most likely coming to save the day just to go back into hiding? Other than Vader or Tarkin making brief appearances Sidious-style (via holograms), I think having the big shots show up in Rebels would be stupid, especially jedi like Kenobi or Yoda who vowed to hide until the time is right, and I'm almost positive that if they bring Maul in Rebels, they will bring Kenobi in it as well. The whole rise of the Empire is as bad as it gets, and Kenobi coming out of hiding to deal with Maul, a far lesser threat to the galaxy as a whole than the empire, would contradict Kenobi's purpose of exiling himself. Besides, do you want to see a goofy looking Maul? I mean, the animation is straight for a younger audience, but nowhere near as good as the animation for TCW. That's why I rather not even see Vader making an appearance at all.


You see at least with Rebels, it's a weekly series. Your bound to have big random story arcs now and then, without taking away the basic concept of the show.

I think when Kenobi hears the name Maul, he definitely would come out of hiding. I mean let's not forget all the s*** Maul put Kenobi through.
Vader's already going to be shown in Hologram form this month (in an added scene to the pilot). So chances are we're almost definitely going to see more of him, in the flesh.

The animations not all bad. The stromtroopers looked really good Imo. And I'm sure it'll improve, but yeah there is that more kiddish element to it.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you know of any good way of how'd they come about bringing Maul into the picture?


Him offering to help the Rebels maybe (not because he's good, but because he hates Sidious). But then turning out to manipulate the Rebels as well as trying to get Sidious/Vader's attention? Could be the rebels give him an opportunity he thought he'd never get. But then not sure where Kenobi would fit into the picture. Perhaps Kanan knows him and contacts him to say that they've got a nutty Darksider helping them out, do you know who it is Lol

Of course we don't know what Spin-Off movies they're making yet. If they do a Kenobi solo movie with Ewan Mcgregor, then I think Maul would fit right in that one. But I doubt they'll do an Obi-Wan movie, given he pretty much was the main character throughout the Prequels.

But a movie Maul would Not fit into IMO, is Episode 7. It's just too far down the line. What would Maul have been doing for the past 50 years, and how old would he have to be? That would make little sense, and they wouldn't risk such a big connection to the Prequels with Episodes 7-9.

The animation is great, but, IMO, it doesn't do the villains justice. TCW Maul looked dark and intimidating. I just can't see him looking the same in Rebels, but as long as the story is good that can be overlooked.

The movies wouldn't have to have Kenobi's presence to make Maul a major character. With the Rebels, though, Kenobi will most definitely show up to save the day if Maul comes, as none of the main heroes are up to par with handling someone like Maul. Though, of course, they can always have Darth Vader take Maul out, which I wouldn't mind seeing. The are pretty decent at depicting fight scenes. I enjoyed watching the fight scene in the last episode.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


The movies wouldn't have to have Kenobi's presence to make Maul a major character. With the Rebels, though, Kenobi will most definitely show up to save the day if Maul comes, as none of the main heroes are up to par with handling someone like Maul.


I think because they really built up the rivalry with those 2, and because Kenobi has a big score left to settle with Maul, that any medium Maul comes back in will inevitably involve Kenobi.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Though, of course, they can always have Darth Vader take Maul out, which I wouldn't mind seeing.


I don't think anyone would mind seeing that!

And at least that can be a proper fight, (Unlike Sidious vs Maul Lol) and Maul may even grow in power a bit over the years making Vader vs Maul an even better fight.

Kenobi coming out of hiding to deal with Maul would honestly be one of the dumbest ideas ever.

Yeah, if it were like that then he should have popped out to deal with Vader already.

Originally posted by ares834
Maul being in Rebels would honestly be one of the dumbest ideas ever. ftfy

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, if it were like that then he should have popped out to deal with Vader already.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
ftfy

Well, that too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, if it were like that then he should have popped out to deal with Vader already.

Yeah except Vader would capture/kill him. He's in hiding from the actual Sith and the Empire, Not from Maul. And he's keeping an eye on Luke but not exactly living with him and spying on him 24/7.

So you guys all think that Kenobi leaving Tatooine a few times in the 20 years he was there for important enough threats/missions that only he can deal with would be "the dumbest thing ever? "

I have a feeling you guys will ultimately be very disappointed in the new canon. Maul or not, Kenobi's bound to show up at some point IMHO.

So anyway how do you guys suggest they deal with Maul still being alive somewhere? Do you think they should just ignore it?

I would prefer non-patronising and non-sarcastic answers about how he never should have been revived in the first place.

Obi-Wan can probably take early-Dark Times Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan can probably take early-Dark Times Vader.

Maybe but he can't take on the entire Empire to get to him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe but he can't take on the entire Empire to get to him.

Yeah, just like he needed to to get to him ANH!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, just like he needed to to get to him ANH!

Oh yeah that was completely planned by Old Ben. Get accidentally captured in the Empire's most powerful weapon, sneak around hiding from Imperial soldiers trying to put the tractor beam down, have all the stormtroopers chasing Han, Luke and Leia, and then right at the end let Vader just find him for a nice 1 v 1.

Your right he could have done that any time.

He should have just done that at the best moment, a few days after ROTS.

But really he should have just killed Vader in the first place instead of just watching him burn like a sicko.

Yeah... No really don't get this idea that Kenobi can never leave Tatooine for a few days for an important enough mission. Heck in Maul's case, it could be Maul who finds him and forces him out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since one or two particularly intractable posters intermittently reintroduce this topic as though there's more to discuss, this is a quick read for one's edification.

?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

The "conflict" technically begins at 1:45 when Sidious attacks the brothers with the Force. Both Zabraks are pinned to the throne room windows and visibly squirm and struggle to release themselves, releasing stress fractures along the glass. Sidious, on the other hand, is smiling and snickering, visibly effortless. He releases them of his own accord and allows them to arm themselves. At 2:09, the brothers cage Sidious each with a two-armed blade lock. He holds them at bay with one hand each, pushing both their blades back, still smiling and cackling.

No stress, fear, concern, anxiety, or effort visibly demonstrated to convey that he's having a hard time or requiring full demand of his abilities, unlike his duels with Yoda and Mace

At 2:20, Savage knocks Sidious off a balcony
At 2:21, Sidious Force grips both brothers and drags them with him
At 2:30, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 2:32, Sidious elbows Savage in the face
At 2:42, Sidious back-kicks Savage off the ramp
At 2:45, Sidious Force slams Maul unconscious
At 2:55, Sidious deactivates his lightsabers and casually dances around two of Savage's strikes
At 2:58, Sidious kicks Savage in the chest
At 3:06, Sidious roundhouse kicks Savage in the face, stunning him
At 3:08, Sidious impales Savage with both blades from behind
At 3:13, Sidious Force pushes Savage off a balcony
At 4:07, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 4:14, Maul kicks Sidious in the chest
At 4:18, Sidious and Maul engage in blade lock with Maul beginning from a position of leverage. Sidious overpowers him and disarms him at 4:22
At 4:25, Sidious Force grips Maul and throws him on the ground
At 4:29, Sidious throws Maul into a wall
At 4:31, Sidious slams Maul on the ground again
At 4:41, Sidious inundates Maul with Force lightning and does so again at 4:55

In this play-by-play, the times that each brother lands a hit of any sort blow against Sidious via physical dominance or the Force is encoded in red. Everything else in standard black is the reverse for Sidious. As you can see, it's hilariously lopsided. This isn't a contest of peers.

So if the patently obvious isn't enough, what else is there?

How about director commentary:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage1_zps7c271af0.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage2_zps4e9ec144.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage3_zpsc8821e65.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage4_zps2afb991b.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage5_zps8e904a7a.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage6_zps0546f40d.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dave%20Filoni%20on%20Sidious%20vs%20Maul%20Savage/DaveFilonionSidiousvsMaulSavage7_zpsddd5b4a4.png

I even posted actual scans rather than putting the burden on any of you heretics to click links. Here it is.

So, to recap: the entire point of the duel was a love letter to Sidious's epic mastery and why he's the biggest BAMF around. Filoni describes it as an ass kicking, confirms that he's enjoying himself the entire time, and that his opponents can't even "compete" with him. He even implies that lightsabers were superfluous by "deciding" to deactivate them and "maul Maul."

That's how lopsided this fight is. Sidious is beyond them by miles and miles and miles. It's all there on-screen and Filoni went to exhausting lengths to repeatedly confirm one of the most ridiculously straightforward battles in Star Wars history.

Any moronic pursuit of this further as though the matter is open to debate can simply be directed to this thread.

tl;dr: Sheev's a god, that's all. This debate is officially closed by decree of Tempest.

http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/56/95/7890f6112c0b7925960efaa915a58a56-dropmic3.gif

After the span of nearly a month, the unadulterated truth of this post continues to mesmerize.

ORLY

PM ME BRO

Jack, come to TOF.

I unbanned you a while back... some one else must have banned you again. Sorry about that.

Tempest's Official thread reads a new disclaimer: Tempest acquiesced the point that Sidious cant beat an Amped Maul/Talzin in a duel. Be wary of this man lest he influence your thoughts with his wiles.

You have been warned, ye fair folk of KMC.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
After the span of nearly a month, the unadulterated truth of this post continues to mesmerize.


Your entire post of proof would be just as applicable to if Dooku was facing say Ventress and Grievous, or going by EU, Ventress and Sora Bulq. Which is why Dooku was without any question Their MASTER. But again none of that means Dooku can speed blitz Ventress and Grievous, or Ventress and Sora Bulq, or that they'll go down to Dooku without a fight.

No ones denying that Maul and Opress combined were outmatched by Sidious. It's the B-Team style speed blitzing thing that gets to people (myself included) as that was never shown or even implied anywhere.

In fact I don't even buy into this "Invisible speed" hyperbole.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact I don't even buy into this "Invisible speed" hyperbole. Probably because you either don't like reading books or you don't understand what hyperbole actually is.

Originally posted by ILS
Probably because you either don't like reading books or you don't understand what hyperbole actually is.


Your problem is you fantasize too much about Invisible Speed and Invincible Combat Prowess that's never been shown to us on screen.

Your other problem is you cling too heavily to Non-Canon sources.

Is the shitty fight choreography of the Mace and Friends vs. Sideous fight really the crux of your argument?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Is the shitty fight choreography of the Mace and Friends vs. Sideous fight really the crux of your argument?


No, the evidence is plenty.

1. We've never seen this "invisible" speed in action in either the canon films or in the canon animation.

2, Jedi are taken on by non-force users who don't have any significant superhuman speed as far as we know all the time- Obi-Wan vs Jango Fett, Windu vs Jango Fett, Maul vs Pre-Vizsla. Heck Anakin Skywalker vs Hondo!

3. We've seen Sidious fight Mace in the films. You're saying that's shiity choreography? Fine. We've seen Sidious fight Yoda in the films, where Yoda was completely CGI. We've seen Yoda fight Dooku in the films. We've seen Sidious fight the Maul bros in the Animation. At no point anywhere was there "invisible combat speed." Not once. The closest we get is the speed they have when they leap around.


So what's the Crux of your argument? The fact that it's written in the Now Non-Canon novels that Skywalker saw Sidious and Mace as blurs? Yeah, no, I'll give the entire visual medium priority over that any day. It's not like it would have been so damn expensive to show everything around Yoda and Sidious move in slow motion when they fight. Especially not in Animation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER Jedi are taken on by non-force users who don't have any significant superhuman speed as far as we know all the time- Obi-Wan vs Jango Fett, Windu vs Jango Fett, Maul vs Pre-Vizsla. Heck Anakin Skywalker vs Hondo!Right, and Jedi also never use their force powers to levitate these people into the air and just chop their legs off, as well. Does that mean that Jedi don't have the ability to levitate objects, or do you just not know what plot-induced stupidity is?


The crux of my argument is that using the speed of the characters during that scene as a metric for anything is stupid. You could argue that TPM Obi-Wan is a faster fighter than Mace and Palpatine based off of their fight scene, because he and Maul were exchanging blows a whole hell of a lot faster than Palpatine and Mace were. So you're arguing that the reason we don't see them move at super-human speeds relative to their environment is because the writers don't intend them to? That's a strange argument to make when one considers that Lucas has outright stated that the feats of the characters in the old CW cartoon, where they were running around like blurs and doing silly shit, was how he actually imagined them to be.

There are precedents within the mythos of the characters fighting at super-human speeds, from Kyle Katarn to Luke and Palpatine fighting so fast that they were both invisible to Leia's eyes to Mace and Vastor fist-fighting so fast that they were both repeatedly described as blurs.

Clinging to the notion that Jedi can't or don't fight at superhuman speeds due to them moving in real-time in the movies and cartoons is grasping. There is not a single instance in any of Thor's movie fights where he's ever shown actually exchanging blows at super-human speeds, but you would probably shit your pants if I argued that he'd be completely helpless against Trinity from the Matrix in a fist-fight on account of that.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
There is not a single instance in any of Thor's movie fights where he's ever shown actually exchanging blows at super-human speeds, but you would probably shit your pants if I argued that he'd be completely helpless against Trinity from the Matrix in a fist-fight on account of that. I like this guy.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Right, and Jedi also never use their force powers to levitate these people into the air and just chop their legs off, as well. Does that mean that Jedi don't have the ability to levitate objects, or do you just not know what plot-induced stupidity is?


Yeah problem in your logic is, we've seen Jedi levitate people.

Heck we've seen Jedi/Sith levitate other Jedi/Sith.

I've seen Dooku choke and levitate Kenobi, flinging him across the room whilst kick slamming Skywalker.

I've seen Yoda completely freeze Ventress, let her go, then when she goes to attack again draw her Lightsaber to him.

Heck I've seen Yoda draw a running away droid to him with Tk, and cut him completely up.

These are all things we've seen showing that yes, against the right opponent and under the right circumstances, Jedi can levitate and cut people up. Although it's obviously against their code to just randomly cut people.

However I've seen nothing from Jedi/Sith like the kind of Invisible combat speed people go on about in these boards.



Originally posted by Tzeentch
The crux of my argument is that using the speed of the characters during that scene as a metric for anything is stupid. You could argue that TPM Obi-Wan is a faster fighter than Mace and Palpatine based off of their fight scene, because he and Maul were exchanging blows a whole hell of a lot faster than Palpatine and Mace were. So you're arguing that the reason we don't see them move at super-human speeds relative to their environment is because the writers don't intend them to? That's a strange argument to make when one considers that Lucas has outright stated that the feats of the characters in the old CW cartoon, where they were running around like blurs and doing silly shit, was how he actually imagined them to be.


Firstly don't give me that Lucas stated the OCW was how he imagined them to be. Because that's not how they made them to be. And he specifically talked with Dave Filoni how Jedi can't do the kind of s*** they did in OCW, because if they could Windu would have solo'd the entire droid army on Geonosis. OCW displayed an exaggerated use of the Force as explained many times and is no longer canon along with the rest of the EU.

Secondly just as your saying "using the speed of the characters during that scene as a metric for anything is stupid" I would say that on the contrary, assuming "Invisible2 speed exists in SW when nothing close to that has ever been shown simply down to Hyperbolic statements in now Non-Canon novels is equally stupid.

The films may have had some bad choreography at times, but that's no excuse to never show this "Invisible speed" throughout tons of animation. And it's no excuse to not even show 1 scene in an entire film which shows us how fast these guys are.

Look at the old Christopher Reeves Superman films for instance. Did they show him fight at superhuman speeds every time he fights? No. But they certainly gave MORE than enough evidence that he does. From the blurred movements at times, through the super fast changing, from getting to the Moon in a few seconds/minutes, right down to catching a bullet, and specifically showing it moving in slow motion to him.

Now those were movies back from the 70's! You really telling me that movies and an entire animated series in the 21st century just couldn't give us that kind of evidence?

No. You need to wake up to the truth of it. Jedi have pre-cog, and they leap around at really fast speeds (though still not invisible), and perhaps a short sprint at really fast speeds (at least that was shown once). But their actual combat speed in Lightsaber fights? Evidence shows that to be slightly superhuman at best.




Originally posted by Tzeentch
There are precedents within the mythos of the characters fighting at super-human speeds, from Kyle Katarn to Luke and Palpatine fighting so fast that they were both invisible to Leia's eyes to Mace and Vastor fist-fighting so fast that they were both repeatedly described as blurs.

Clinging to the notion that Jedi can't or don't fight at superhuman speeds due to them moving in real-time in the movies and cartoons is grasping. There is not a single instance in any of Thor's movie fights where he's ever shown actually exchanging blows at super-human speeds, but you would probably shit your pants if I argued that he'd be completely helpless against Trinity from the Matrix in a fist-fight on account of that.


Like I said, it's all going by hyperbolic descriptions in novels (things like "IF Kar was Fast THEN Mace was Invisible" which are now Non-Canon anyway. And even previously, they were canon but always behind the movies and animation in canonicity. In fact there was a whole discussion on these boards once where Leeland Chee said that true feats are those in line with the movies, and that those feats that don't fit in with them are exaggerated.

Movie Thor in terms of continuity has appeared in what 3 movies? And maybe a comic here and there.

And still we've been given enough evidence of what he can do. He has superhuman speed without Mjolnir. Because we see him bullrush Hulk through a wall. We see him dodge CGI Hulk's punches, and we see some slow motion of him dodging a Jet Wing.

With Mjolnir we see him fly around bullrushing the Frost Beast on Jotunheim. We've seen him swing Mjolnir at incredible speeds, plus we've seen the use of so many of his exotic powers, that no he wouldn't be defenseless against Trinity from Matrix.

But it's not like he's had trouble hitting Hawkeye, or even Captain America for that matter.

With the Jedi/Sith it's completely different. We've seen them CONSISTENTLY face off against Non-Force users with No Obvious Superhuman speed. We've had 6 films (3 of them in the days of CGI effects) and tons of animation, yet Not a single evidence of them Fighting at Superhuman speeds. Not even once (aside from the leaping around, and possibly sprinting at times).

And I'll tell you what, if a novel about Movie Avengers, said he was fighting Hulk at close to the speed of Light, I would completely ignore it! And I certainly wouldn't start Trolling Superman fans saying Thor fights faster than MOS, because even though we've never seen it, it said it in the Novel!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER



Firstly don't give me that Lucas stated the OCW was how he imagined them to be. Because that's not how they made them to be. And he specifically talked with Dave Filoni how Jedi can't do the kind of s*** they did in OCW, because if they could Windu would have solo'd the entire droid army on Geonosis. OCW displayed an exaggerated use of the Force as explained many times and is no longer canon along with the rest of the EU.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your entire post of proof would be just as applicable to if Dooku was facing say Ventress and Grievous, or going by EU, Ventress and Sora Bulq. Which is why Dooku was without any question Their MASTER. But again none of that means Dooku can speed blitz Ventress and Grievous, or Ventress and Sora Bulq, or that they'll go down to Dooku without a fight.

No ones denying that Maul and Opress combined were outmatched by Sidious. It's the B-Team style speed blitzing thing that gets to people (myself included) as that was never shown or even implied anywhere.

In fact I don't even buy into this "Invisible speed" hyperbole.

Nah, you just don't like the fact that folks like Maul and Obi-Wan are ants to Sidious. You deeply fantasize about a world in which they're dangerous to him, when in reality he's just a billion times better. It confounds and deeply frustrates you.

Which pleases me. excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you just don't like the fact that folks like Maul and Obi-Wan are ants to Sidious. You deeply fantasize about a world in which they're dangerous to him, when in reality he's just a billion times better. It confounds and deeply frustrates you.

Which pleases me. excellent


Lol Okaaaay.

Just never forget all it took was a Cripple to grab him from behind and shove him down a reactor shaft. Whilst no one as of yet as managed to kill Maul : )

Btw, if anyone does well against Darth Sidious, he's toying with them by principle.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Okaaaay.

Just never forget all it took was a Cripple to grab him from behind and shove him down a reactor shaft. Whilst no one as of yet as managed to kill Maul : )

He was toying with Vader.

Originally posted by Marco1907


He was toying with Vader.


True. He wanted to be thrown down the shaft so he could transfer his essence to a clone body.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True. He wanted to be thrown down the shaft so he could transfer his essence to a clone body.



that Essence transfer though... :/

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Okaaaay.

Just never forget all it took was a Cripple to grab him from behind and shove him down a reactor shaft. Whilst no one as of yet as managed to kill Maul : )



But I can clearly troll you. stoned

Do you really quote yourself? What an arrogant person.

Bump for SunRazer and DP.

I'm not sure what's there to debate. The brothers' defeat was more than a stomp. Sidious managed to dominate the entire fight without even trying and keep it going as long as he wanted to. That's more impressive than one-shotting an opponent.

I don't disagree. In a franchise littered with PIS and ambiguous outcomes, I think this is one of the most straightforward and clear-cut confrontations. Any ambiguity from the scene itself has been removed and utterly flattened by persistent director commentary.

But some people see things differently, I guess.

Careful my friend, lest you resurrect Marco and cause further inane babbling.

Are you guys also suggesting Sidious was effortlessly stomping Maul at the climax of their duel? Referring to this section:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iPgsvbMzdE