Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Nightbrothers vs. 4 Jedi High Council Member,

Darth Maul - Savage Opress

vs.

Agen Kolar - Saesee Tiin - Kit Fisto - Shaak Ti

-Force, saber all out.

The Council most likely.

Brothers in a good fight.

Adding Shaak tips the scale imo. Council wins.

Adi were able to hold her own against Opress. Every Jedi here is better swordmaster then Adi, and most of them are far stronger physically (except only Shaak Ti), faster and more agile (except perhaps Tiin).
Savage has really small chanes to old his own for long against any two combatants.

Maul should be able to beat any duo, but Opress will fall before Maul will do this. And then Maul will be overhelmed by three or four opponents and will die.

Pretty much. Were it just the B-Team, the Brothers would likely have an edge, but adding a fourth member to the party spells defeat.

Likewise. The particular pairings don't matter too much, unless one of the council members get quite sloppy early on, they should come on top.

Ehh... I'm leaning towards the Council personally but there are scenarios where the brothers can win, by abusing their telekinetic advantage over Fisto and Kolar. If those two could be taken out of the picture relatively early on, I'd vouch for the brothers. But more often than not Savage is going to be taken out in a dueling scenario by two Jedi, leaving Maul to get dogpiled.

Were this just the B-team, I'd give it to the brothers solidly, but with the addition of Shaak Ti, I'm not quite sure.

Originally posted by ILS
Ehh... I'm leaning towards the Council personally but there are scenarios where the brothers can win, by abusing their telekinetic advantage over Fisto and Kolar. If those two could be taken out of the picture relatively early on, I'd vouch for the brothers. But more often than not Savage is going to be taken out in a dueling scenario by two Jedi, leaving Maul to get dogpiled.

It's pretty darn hard to actually take someone out with telekinesis, rather than buy time and cause a little damage. Even if they get thrown, then the other two cover until those two get back up and join in.

Originally posted by Q99
It's pretty darn hard to actually take someone out with telekinesis, rather than buy time and cause a little damage. Even if they get thrown, then the other two cover until those two get back up and join in.
That's true, I guess it depends on where the fight takes place. If the opponent can be thrown at something hard with enough force, you could leave them in a similar state to Kenobi or Adi Gallia when Dooku/Savage telekinetically hurled them. That would give Maul enough time to deal with his lone opponent.
Or, if they're in an environment akin to where Maul launched Grievous away, they could be BFR'd.

Believe in Dave Filoni ! Right hand man of George Lucas.

Council wins solidly, Shaak Ti could take Oppress solo IMO.

Kolar and Tiin are both great swordsmen and would not be taken easily by either of their opponents.

Originally posted by AncientPower


Kolar and Tiin are both great swordsmen and would not be taken easily by either of their opponents.

They are fools can't even react to Darth Sidious, they are no where good as even Savage. Maybe Kit Fisto is close to Savage, and Shaak Ti is fool as well since she get ass kicked by Grievous.

Only real threat here is Kit Fisto, and he lacks dueling skill due to shii-cho.

Sidious tricked Tiin and speedblitzed him and Kolar then killed Fisto, he is confirmed to use Force Speed, read the ROTS novel.

Shaak Ti fought STARKILLER and nearly KILLED him, a far far superior opponent than Opress. Not to mention in the original Grievous appearance she is one of the only Jedi who fights him somewhat evenly and isn't steamrolled right away.

Not to mention the Coruscant fight involves a marathon of fighting that is one of the greatest endurance feats from a Jedi we've seen.

Shaak Ti is a full master of a hybrid variant of Ataru and Makashi, she was praised by Dooku, Obi-Wan and countless others for being one of the best sword masters on the High Council and the most cunning of the lot.

She'd have Savage for breakfast, many people don't realize just how much better Shaak Ti is than most PT Council members.

I wouldn't use Grievous as an inferior comparison when we see Grievous stomp Obi-Wan in the latest works, the same Obi-Wan taking Maul and Oppress simultaneously.

Originally posted by AncientPower


She'd have Savage for breakfast,



Did you really read RotS Novel ? And why Mace left Shaak Tİ at the temple while he took Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar ?

Kit Fisto > Saesee Tiin - Agen Kolar > Shaak Ti

And Starkiller is very very inconsistent and stupid character.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Were this just the B-team, I'd give it to the brothers solidly, but with the addition of Shaak Ti, I'm not quite sure.

This. But edge to Council with Shaak Ti on side.

Originally posted by Marco1907


Did you really read RotS Novel ? And why Mace left Shaak Tİ at the temple while he took Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar ?

Kit Fisto > Saesee Tiin - Agen Kolar > Shaak Ti

And Starkiller is very very inconsistent and stupid character.

So you're picking and choosing what you want to debate, just keep on Maul wanking, I'm not going to have this kind of debate with someone.

Shaak Ti > Savage

Deal with it.

Nalaniel transcends all on these boards. Bow before her or suffer her wrath.

At least Nala's posts will still be here by the end of the day

I guess Shaak Ti > Plo Koon too, and by extension would be about on par with the likes of Ventress and Kenobi. Awesome.

Originally posted by Marco1907
and Shaak Ti is fool as well since she get ass kicked by Grievous.

Is that so? Well I guess that makes Aayla a shitty duelist since Aayla was completely tossed around like a ragdoll against Grevious on Hypori, While Shaak Ti held her ground despite being exhausted from battle. So i guess that makes her(Aayla) a crappy jedi and therefore it makes Maul's feat of taking on her and Mace really crappy...

-_-



Right, because being hailed as a master of Makashi & Ataru, called a direct peer to Dooku's grace with the blade, regarded as one of the most cunning warriors of the order and considered to have "Legendary strength in the force". Doesn't make you a threat.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Did you really read RotS Novel ? And why Mace left Shaak Tİ at the temple while he took Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar ?

Easy, she was charged with protecting the Temple along with Cin Drallig, she's lead the defense of other places, it only make sense she be left behind.



That is all arguable , Neither Saesee Tiin nor Agen Kolar have any feats that put them above Shaak Ti.



Perhaps, but before hand he was beating Rahm Kota and showcasing tremendous skill with Telekinesis on a highly destructive level.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Shaak Ti > Savage

Deal with it.



Originally posted by Emperordmb
At least Nala's posts will still be here by the end of the day

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/BruceTheBunny/GIFS/tumblr_m7tsgbe8wl1rpam43.gif

I can't even argue Shaak Ti being more powerful than Savage Opress...... That's just dumb....

Originally posted by Marco1907
I can't even argue Shaak Ti being more powerful than Savage Opress...... That's just dumb....

Saying Vader is slow is just dumb.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Saying Vader is slow is just dumb.

So do you think Kai Hudorra is dumb ? Or even George Lucas ?

You mean the Jedi who died 22 years before Vader's peak?

Originally posted by Marco1907
So do you think Kai Hudorra is dumb ? Or even George Lucas ?

Vader still killed him. 22 years before his prime.

Originally posted by Kurupt Homie
Still not true. And irrelevant to combat efficiency.

Thanks for providing proof that its not true and a well written counter-argument..

Oh wait! you didn't do anything so...Thank you for your concession.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You mean the Jedi who died 22 years before Vader's peak?

Yeah, the same Jedi who had his hand severed by Vader before he (Hudorra) could react, and yet his claim that Vader is slow is supposed to be taken seriously

Wow... So Vader has become super fast in his prime... He couldn't tag RotJ Luke though... And failed to beat Old Ben Kenobi... Or failed to tag alien bounty hunter with weird name...

Oldi-wan was still before his prime.

Originally posted by Kurupt Homie
I guess you're mad again. Even though I haven't talked Bane in, like, a month.

They always mad.

Shaak Ti makes this a stomp in the favor of the Council. Alone she'd give Maul a good fight, and likely take a number of fights, and if you think Savage can hold off 3 Council swordmasters...well you should probably stop posting on these boards.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Alone she'd give Maul a good fight,

So Shaak Ti is beating Maul now ?

Originally posted by Marco1907
So Shaak Ti is beating Maul now ?

You must be the King of taking things out of context. He never said She would outright beat Maul, only that she'd give him a good fight and score a victory in a round or two. Is it really so bad to say that certain Jedi council members would give Maul a good fight?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You must be the King of taking things out of context. He never said She would outright beat Maul, only that she'd give him a good fight and score a victory in a round or two. Is it really so bad to say that certain Jedi council members would give Maul a good fight?

Yes because Shaak Ti doesn't have any dueling feat to compare with prime Maul.

Since this is RotS Shaak Ti, she doesn't have that Starkiller feat as well.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yes because Shaak Ti doesn't have any dueling feat to compare with prime Maul.

Since this is RotS Shaak Ti, she doesn't have that Starkiller feat as well.

Except you know, she took on an Army of Magna-guards, tanked Blows from electro staffs, deadlocked with eight Magna-guards which is a show of strength, broke the head off a Magna-Guard with her knee, survived a blaster shot to the chest and has so much hype as a duelist and a force user.

Tell me, why are you so eager to take OCW feats into account only where Shaak Ti is involved?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Except you know, she took on an Army of Magna-guards, tanked Blows from electro staffs, deadlocked with eight Magna-guards which is a show of strength, broke the head off a Magna-Guard with her knee, survived a blaster shot to the chest and has so much hype as a duelist and a force user.

She only took an "army" of Magnaguards by using an electrostaff herself, which would give greater range to her attacks, and she was clearly losing before that. Still a good feat, just not that good, and it's not a showing of pure lightsaber prowess anyways.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
She only took an "army" of Magnaguards by using an electrostaff herself, which would give greater range to her attacks, and she was clearly losing before that. Still a good feat, just not that good, and it's not a showing of pure lightsaber prowess anyways.

Well yeah, but it shows she's versatile, plus she later used her saber along with the staff, which again, shows versatility

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Tell me, why are you so eager to take OCW feats into account only where Shaak Ti is involved?

I believe you mean't "Only when Shaak Ti is involved"

Get it right sheesh.

dumb jokes aside: If your referring to my comment about Neither Kolar nor Tiin having anything that puts them above Ti, then I'll say i wasn't thinking about Tiin's TK feat.

And hey, i'm using feats from everywhere. RoTs Novel, the Star Wars: Jedi series, TCW/A not just from OCW. give me some credit

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Council most likely.

Nope, where works too.



No, sir, I am not. Pretty sure though you don't believe that AotC Anakin can flip space stations, or that Mace can casually dominate countless thousands of SBD's unarmed, not to mention Padawans holding up Star Destroyers.

I mean, if you do, I suppose using Shaak's OCW feats is fine. But that would also mean accepting that any PT Jedi Padawan could squash Bane with a Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
*snip

That was a joke



http://hellogiggles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/28/50900-Ellen-Page-shrug-gif-Tb30.gif

It is a small price to pay

Excellent.

Originally posted by ILS
I guess Shaak Ti > Plo Koon too, and by extension would be about on par with the likes of Ventress and Kenobi. Awesome.

She is on par with Obi-Wan and probably Dooku.

Windu and Yoda are the only High Council members I can see as definitively above her.

Her feats and hype match up very well and clearly puts her above the likes of Plo Koon and Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She is on par with Obi-Wan and probably Dooku.

Windu and Yoda are the only High Council members I can see as definitively above her.

Her feats and hype match up very well and clearly puts her above the likes of Plo Koon and Kit Fisto.

She really isn't. Her accolades don't quite match up, and then you only need to look at her feats to realize that everyone you've just mentioned is a superior duelist to her. She's only more powerful in the Force than Kenobi and Fisto, probably.

Ti may be on par with Koon. But she isn't as skilled of a swordswoman as Kenobi is and her force powers aren't on Kenobis level either. She is a good step below him, but she is still great

She can summon Kinetite balls, something Vader could only do with a Kaiburr Crystal.

She was dueling Starkiller to a stand still and nearly killed him.

She tanked a marathon against magnaguards.

Is praised by Kenobi and Dooku.

Is a confirmed master of Ataru and Makashi, something she uses her amazing mid-combat acrobatic feats well with.

Proved to be > Aayla against Grievous and again was only beaten by grievous after aforementioned marathon.

Is stated to have almost endless stamina, can tank blaster bolts to the chest, then killing the mercs that did it and then Force Healing herself of said wound.

That's a variation of Force Lightning, right? Makes sense Vader wouldn't be able to do it without external measures, he'd fry himself by conjuring Force Lightning, which is why he hasn't used it.

Who isn't really an impressive duelist to begin with, especially not at the time Ti fought him.

She essentially stalemated one with her lightsaber, and then fodderized several with a staff. Inconsistency/nonsense aside, it doesn't really elevate her to the level of anyone you've mentioned.

Which is nice, I guess.

Which is for the most part irrelevant to a discussion about how skilled she is exactly.

Aayla isn't impressive to begin with. Her feats extend to briefly dueling evenly with Quinlan Vos, beating a Morgukai warrior... ect.

Being beaten by Grievous within moments (but holding her own), tanking a blaster bolt, killing mercenaries and utilizing Force heal isn't going to elevate her to the levels of those you've mentioned. I hope I don't need to explain why.

Originally posted by ILS


You have missed the point, Kinetite is an incredibly powerful ability, far superior to the likes of Electric Judgement.

Originally posted by ILS Who isn't really an impressive duelist to begin with, especially not at the time Ti fought him.

Incorrect:

"After defeating Rahm Kota, Starkiller has proven his considerable mastery of Juyo and Shien. When he defeats the Togruta Jedi Master Shaak Ti, he is immediately seen by the Emperor as a considerable threat should Vader turn his sights to his master."- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

"Galen proves to be an equal of Vader in every way.. matching his skills with the lightsaber before dominating the Sith Lord with the power of the Force." - The Force Unleashed Prima Strategy Guide

Originally posted by ILS She essentially stalemated one with her lightsaber, and then fodderized several with a staff. Inconsistency/nonsense aside, it doesn't really elevate her to the level of anyone you've mentioned.

It is an excellent feat in and of itself clearly superior to the handling of Magna-guards that the Kenobi-Skywalker duo shows.

Originally posted by ILS Which is nice, I guess.

It is considerable in that Dooku viewed much of the Order with little respect, but considers Shaak Ti as a true Makashi master(though not of course equal to himself).

Originally posted by ILS Which is for the most part irrelevant to a discussion about how skilled she is exactly.

Makashi is stated to be one of the hardest forms to truly master, but the fact she managed to hybridize this with Ataru, a form that works almost in the opposite way, using acrobatics over the footwork that Makashi requires shows true lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by ILS Aayla isn't impressive to begin with. Her feats extend to briefly dueling evenly with Quinlan Vos, beating a Morgukai warrior... ect.

Aayla herself is not one of the top, you are correct, she is however quite impressive, the fact she fought well against Maul says a lot.

Originally posted by ILS Being beaten by Grievous within moments (but holding her own), tanking a blaster bolt, killing mercenaries and utilizing Force heal isn't going to elevate her to the levels of those you've mentioned. I hope I don't need to explain why.

They are impressive feats themselves and puts her in the upper echelons of the Council.

When the **** was Shaak Ti confirmed to use kinetite?

Not on Kenobis level sadly. I like Ti, and I think around Koon level is a nice place to put her

I have Shaak Ti a bit below Koon, but I have Koon above everyone but the big four Jedi.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When the **** was Shaak Ti confirmed to use kinetite?

The comic book/graphic novel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The comic book.
Any scans to confirm this?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The comic book/graphic novel.

would it be this one by any chance?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67877/1483206-the_force_unleashed_044.jpg

Nvm, yep, but there is a previous panel I think.

Oh and let us not forget when she Tutaminis'd lightsabers...

The previous panel would be much appreciated if anyone has it.

Here is the other page: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67877/1483205-the_force_unleashed_043.jpg

Lol@ Shaak Ti being equal to Kenobi. And ROOOOOOTLF@ Shaak Ti being even comperable to Dooku.

Shaak Ti was describe as 'A great swordswoman, one of the greatest on the Jedi High Council."

As well as: "one of the few true masters of Makashi and an awe-inspiring peer of Ataru."

And let's not forget that Lucas states Shaak Ti is on par with Obi-Wan and MACE.

Could you give a source of that statement? And don't tell me, that it was in LoE.

Which one? the first is from Star Wars Fact File.

"And let's not forget that Lucas states Shaak Ti is on par with Obi-Wan and MACE."

I'm curious about this one.

Hold on, I will figure out which commentary it is

George Lucas says otherwise as does her feats.

^
I think so as well.

I am looking right now, so don't be asinine.

It's either the vast ROTS commentary or TFU.

But feel free to continue assuming I am lying.

EDIT: It is the ROTS Behind the scenes, I believe the Deleted Scenes.

I knew I remembered it from somewhere, just spotted it on Comic Vine.

"I decided not to kill her because I felt it was a poor death, we even had a version where Annie comes in when she is meditating and kills her in the same way.

*continues*

Shaak Ti is one of the best warrior Jedi and her skills with a laser sword are like Obi's and Mace's, but you rarely see it because she is so peaceful."

AncientPower- Nice

Originally posted by Bantha Da Beast
Ti isn't on par with anyone in this fight, done deal.

Well, yes, she's stronger than several of them. That's the point.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She is on par with Obi-Wan and probably Dooku.

Windu and Yoda are the only High Council members I can see as definitively above her.

Her feats and hype match up very well and clearly puts her above the likes of Plo Koon and Kit Fisto.

So you somehow proved, that Ti is equal to Kenobi and Mace, and then you assume that she's equal to Dooku, and Mace is her superior? Man, please, don't be a fanboy. Uou did a great job by posting that statement. It may be another proof that Palpatine threw the fight against Mace.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I am looking right now, so don't be asinine.

It's either the vast ROTS commentary or TFU.

But feel free to continue assuming I am lying.

EDIT: It is the ROTS Behind the scenes, I believe the Deleted Scenes.

I knew I remembered it from somewhere, just spotted it on Comic Vine.

"I decided not to kill her because I felt it was a poor death, we even had a version where Annie comes in when she is meditating and kills her in the same way.

*continues*

Shaak Ti is one of the best warrior Jedi and her skills with a laser sword are like Obi's and Mace's, but you rarely see it because she is so peaceful."

I'm unable to find the scene this is from.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, yes, she's stronger than several of them. That's the point.

I only remember Lucas calling her the tribal warrior princess of the Jedi, so I too would like a link to that.

I am highly amused right now.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Found it (http://www.comicvine.com/profile/whirlwind_33/blog/kit-fisto-respect-thread/97926/). Nice. Yesterday I typed Kit Fist, forgetting the "o," which is still odd being that "Kit and "respect thread" are key words that should have allowed your respect thread to be one of the first to show up on google.

Also, do you know if Silver will be making a return to CV?

I don't think he'll return, and honestly, after seeing the comments to this blog I don't blame him. http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

Originally posted by Nargaroth
I don't think he'll return, and honestly after seeing the comments to this blog I don't blame him. http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/


Thing is, Silver thoroughly addressed all the points that were brought up in those comments, so he should have easily been able to ignore the ignorance or at least copy and paste the arguments he already countered. I could see him not returning on account of absolutely nobody taking him seriously and just overlooking his hard work he puts in his analysis, but that's not the case. He was looked up to as the best SW debater there, and on the entire web as a whole by many people, for that matter. Their are plenty who learn a lot from him, and have had their opinions changed because of his arguments.

I mean, if that is the reason he left, then, I, personally, don't see it as a good reason, but that's just me. IDK, maybe he just lost interest. There are times I don't feel like debating and much rather read arguments presented by others.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Ti may be on par with Koon. But she isn't as skilled of a swordswoman as Kenobi is and her force powers aren't on Kenobis level either. She is a good step below him, but she is still great

No way bro. Shaak Ti's force prowess is above Kenobi's. When has Kenobi demonstrated the raw Force power to forcibly subvert a DS Nexus into a LS nexus.

Originally posted by AncientPower

"Shaak Ti is one of the best warrior Jedi and her skills with a laser sword are like Obi's and Mace's, but you rarely see it because she is so peaceful."

OMG YAAAASSSSSSS

Also matches Dooku's flat out statement that Grievous would get his shit rocked by Shaak Ti, Kenobi, Mace or Yoda.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
OMG YAAAASSSSSSS

Also matches Dooku's flat out statement that Grievous would get his shit rocked by Shaak Ti, Kenobi, Mace or Yoda.

You mean Drallig.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Thing is, Silver thoroughly addressed all the points that were brought up in those comments, so he should have easily been able to ignore the ignorance or at least copy and paste the arguments he already countered. I could see him not returning on account of absolutely nobody taking him seriously and just overlooking his hard work he puts in his analysis, but that's not the case. He was looked up to as the best SW debater there, and on the entire web as a whole by many people, for that matter. Their are plenty who learn a lot from him, and have had their opinions changed because of his arguments.

I mean, if that is the reason he left, then, I, personally, don't see it as a good reason, but that's just me. IDK, maybe he just lost interest. There are times I don't feel like debating and much rather read arguments presented by others.

Heh, I know Silver is probably the best, and I'm one of those who learned a lot from him actually. I never had a debate with him, but I enjoy reading his older analysis, because they are both feat based and very reasonable, and that's a style of debating I try to emulate, though I don't always succeed and I don't necessarily agree with all he says of course.

As for that blog, the argument in it is so often misconceived and misinterpreted in general (not just in those comments but in the forums at large) that it's no wonder he left. It must be freaking frustrating to explain it for the 10000th time, and still have people not even trying to truly understand or counter it.

Originally posted by AncientPower


EDIT: It is the ROTS Behind the scenes, I believe the Deleted Scenes.

I knew I remembered it from somewhere, just spotted it on Comic Vine.

"I decided not to kill her because I felt it was a poor death, we even had a version where Annie comes in when she is meditating and kills her in the same way.

*continues*

Shaak Ti is one of the best warrior Jedi and her skills with a laser sword are like Obi's and Mace's, but you rarely see it because she is so peaceful."

I've just watched the commentary on the Shaak Ti deleted scene, but can't find any of these comments.

Give the correct source please (preferrably a link) or we'll just have to ignore these lines as evidence.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
OMG YAAAASSSSSSS

Also matches Dooku's flat out statement that Grievous would get his shit rocked by Shaak Ti, Kenobi, Mace or Yoda.


Calm down LS. Those comments are not in the source he's claiming them to be. Comic Vine is not a source.

On the dispute over Shaak Ti's power level, it is very possible that she has grown far more powerful between TCW and TUF, so which era are we pulling from in this fight?

Nai > Silver.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nai > Silver.

Nai is very good at rhetoric. The substance behind his rhetoric is good, but not remarkably so.

That Nai can be as good as he is without relying on the bajillion quotes that Silver does makes him more impressive in my eyes.

Silver isn't that great, he's just some sort of autistic super-nerd who spams so many quotes and feats people don't bother contradicting him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nai > Silver.

May I ask who he is?

A super grumpy German guy who shows up here every few months.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A super grumpy German guy who shows up here every few months.

Lol, super grumpy?

Eh. I'd put Mike Wong and Vympel/Leo1 at the top of the SW debating tier if I had to pick, even though neither really debate character versus and Wong is basically AWOL.

That Gideon guy was pretty good too I've heard, although a bit of a narcissistic little shit. Advent was pretty good too, without the narcissism.

Master Han and Rogue Gladiator I'd put just slightly below, although both deliberately dumbed down their rhetoric to better deal with the common people. At full power it's difficult to know how good they would be.

Then you have guys like Lucien who can combine competent rhetoric with this faux-badass apathetic style to mask the simpleton-level logic they throw out.

Was?

Dunno where she went.

BTW, "SW_legend" has to take the cake as one of the dumbest debaters I've ever seen. The most absurd part about his style is, he obsessively throws quotes to the order of "XX was an incredibly powerful duelist" and then uses it to prove arbitrarily that he could defeat YY person. When you point out the fact that "incredibly powerful" and "beyond formidable" aren't useful descriptions, he just assures you that "this means he is an incredibly powerful combatant".

I'd take SW_Legend anyday over Hewhoknowsnothing.

Ouch.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd take SW_Legend anyday over Hewhoknowsnothing.

Given that hewhoknowsall was a dumbass judge away from making quarterfinals at the Harvard debate tournament, he's obviously just f*cking around when he debates here, in case you haven't noticed.

Don't you mean used to debate here?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't you mean used to debate here?

No.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Calm down LS. Those comments are not in the source he's claiming them to be. Comic Vine is not a source.

I was overzealous clearly lol.

So i just got up, i'll look for the actual source on those statements but I did find these:

"Shaak Ti was grouped among the six "great swordbeings" of the Jedi Order" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become.

He is simplicity itself.

That is his power." - RotS, hardcover, pg. 293-294

Originally posted by Skybreaker
On the dispute over Shaak Ti's power level, it is very possible that she has grown far more powerful between TCW and TUF, so which era are we pulling from in this fight?

I assume during TCW, otherwise characters will get confused ^^

If it's TUF Shaak, the brothers are in real trouble.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So i just got up, i'll look for the actual source on those statements but I did find these:

"Shaak Ti was grouped among the six "great swordbeings" of the Jedi Order" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become.

He is simplicity itself.

That is his power." - RotS, hardcover, pg. 293-294


Now that's something we can use to place Shaak Ti above all other Council Members (not mentioned above).

Well, someone who's better in the force could still be stronger than her. Plo Koon's got good force feats after all. But in saber skill, yes.

She has used Alter Environment, Healing Trance, Tutaminis and Kinetite to quite impressive levels.

Not to mention ludicrous use of Force Augmentation and using Force Speed to dodge simultaneous blaster shots from every direction without a lightsaber.

That is just off the top of my head.

Some of it likely only in TFU version, though. I doubt she had Kinetite back in the clone wars, for example. It'd have been too useful against droids for her not to use.

Kinetite is the only one she performed on Felucia solely, yes.

Still given that her clarity and prowess on the High Council is praised by six other Jedi/Sith, I strongly believe over-all she sits around Kenobi to Dooku level in ROTS.

By TFU however I could see her being even stronger than that, I mean she did shift Felucia's force alignment merely with her presence.

Originally posted by McP


That quote that you posted doesn't necessary mean, that Shaak Ti is equal to Dooku and that Depa is equal to Mace. It may just mean, that Depa is - like Mace - Vaapad's user, and Shaak ti is Makashi's user - like Dooku. That doesn't make them equal.


But it does seem to suggest that they are the best users/representations of those forms.

That's actually true. After Bulq left the Order, Depa was second only to Windu as a Vaapad user. And undoubtedly - besides Dooku - Shaak Ti was best Makashi practicioner of her era.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Still given that her clarity and prowess on the High Council is praised by six other Jedi/Sith, I strongly believe over-all she sits around Kenobi to Dooku level in ROTS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Now that's something we can use to place Shaak Ti above all other Council Members (not mentioned above).

No it doesn't. All it does is call her a "great sword being " doesn't mean she is Fistos superior. There is absolutely no reason to believe that all the "great swordbeings" are mentioned there.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
May I ask who he is?


Nai was one of the best debaters here, but he's not in Silver's league. Silver is a much more analytical thinker, and he is much better at comparing and contrasting character feats in very detailed analysis. Silver also has a very vast grasp of context and logic. That's not to say that Nai lacks those qualities, because he doesn't, and he is very knowledgeable on SW. I don't care too much for Nai, but I've always been a person who gives credit where it's due. Look him up, and some of his older arguments; the guy is smart, but not quite on par with Silver. Neph just doesn't like Silver, which is evident in his claim that Silver only spams quotes, which is a lie. I don't agree with Silver on everything, but most of his arguments are hard to counter.

You should follow NewGuy's arguments. He has the potential of being just as good, IMO. I'm pretty sure you're already familiar with The_Tempest/Gideon.

@Neph, don't be a hater. Lol

Originally posted by AncientPower
Kinetite is the only one she performed on Felucia solely, yes.

Still given that her clarity and prowess on the High Council is praised by six other Jedi/Sith, I strongly believe over-all she sits around Kenobi to Dooku level in ROTS.

By TFU however I could see her being even stronger than that, I mean she did shift Felucia's force alignment merely with her presence.

That's not true, she Kept the Felucians in line and taught them the Light, which in turn shifted the planet.

Silver>Gideon=Nai>the rest, IMO.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Silver>Gideon=Nai>the rest, IMO.
Silver was rather trash tbh. Having Ventress over Bane was pathetic.
Real list: Nalaniel>Gideon>Revan Fans>Silver>the rest>SWTOR forums.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Silver was rather trash tbh. Having Ventress over Bane was pathetic.
Real list: Nalaniel>Gideon>Revan Fans>Silver>the rest>SWTOR forums.

I don't think he would argue that anymore, and as far as duelling goes, he is right anyways. Don't agree with your list, but whatever.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Silver was rather trash tbh. Having Ventress over Bane was pathetic.
Real list: Nalaniel>Gideon>Revan Fans>Silver>the rest>SWTOR forums.

Sure, his views were pretty off imo, but his all-around debating skill is basically unmatched. This is the dude who gave a very legitimate argument that Palpatine would defeat Superman. And besides, if he said Maul>Revan, I'd like to see you try and convince him otherwise.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And besides, if he said Maul>Revan, I'd like to see you try and convince him otherwise.
That's because he takes everything strait from the book and doesn't understand how midichlorians work.

Originally posted by McP
That's actually true. After Bulq left the Order, Depa was second only to Windu as a Vaapad user. And undoubtedly - besides Dooku - Shaak Ti was best Makashi practicioner of her era.

Hm, do we even know who was better between Depa and Bulq....? Well, that's a question for another thread... *goes off to make thread*



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But it does seem to suggest that they are the best users/representations of those forms.

Yes. I'd expect the listings were in order: Windu, then Depa. Dooku, then Shaak Ti. Each the second best in that area, but worth mentioning in the same breath.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This is the dude who gave a very legitimate argument that Palpatine would defeat Superman.

There is no legitimate argument for Sheev defeating Superman.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's not true, she Kept the Felucians in line and taught them the Light, which in turn shifted the planet.

"Without Shaak Ti, the planet almost immediately reverted to the darkness it had always in reality been. Maris Brood and the shamans became twisted by evil so quickly that it was as if the Jedi Master was merely the dam holding back the flood."

"The Togruta was a beacon of light in the darkness, if she had given into evil, she through the planet could have become the darkest power in the galaxy."

"The surviving Jedi Master had lived in symbiosis with the planet, much like her own midichlorians. Through the strength of the Togruta the planet began to heal it's immense wounds following the Clone Wars."

All from The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide and the Prima Guide.

Originally posted by ares834
No it doesn't. All it does is call her a "great sword being " doesn't mean she is Fistos superior. There is absolutely no reason to believe that all the "great swordbeings" are mentioned there.

'six'....

Originally posted by AncientPower
'six'....

Which comes form where? Wookieepedia? Because the actual quote you posted that comes from the novel does not mention"six" anywhere.

It's merely listing great swordsmen of the order not necessarily the greatest.

Fisto, Koon, Tiin, Kolar, Koth and the rest still are not mentioned. All the confirmed best which are Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Kenobi and Skywalker are all there, as well as Ti and Depa whom already have a vast amount of sources claiming they are among the greatest in the Jedi Order are included to.

However Ti's feat of combining Makashi and Ataru into a hybridized form that Starkiller could not keep track of is not paralleled by any of the five at the top and is indeed praised highly by Dooku and even Vader views her very highly, not expecting Starkiller to return.

Ti is among the six best in the Jedi High Council, it is that simple.

Not that simple at all. The quote you posted earlier certainly doesn't suggest as much. If you believe so based on feats and such though, fair enough.

We will have to disagree on the quote then, because it is quite clear to me.

Except you are giving it a meaning that it doesn't have. It lists some of the greatest sword masters in the order. Nothing more or less.

No it lists the great 'sword-beings' of the Order, comparing them and their skills to Obi-Wan's simplistic Soresu mastery.

This is merely backed up by the feats that I have posted.

Originally posted by ares834
Which comes form where? Wookieepedia? Because the actual quote you posted that comes from the novel does not mention"six" anywhere.

This quote is the 'six' quote:

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."

Which lists six other great swordbeings. Really it should be seven...

Originally posted by Q99
This quote is the 'six' quote:

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."

Which lists six other great swordbeings. Really it should be seven...


It does sound to me like it's talking about the Elite swordsmen of that era. Or at least the best of forms 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7. So unless the best users of Forms 1 & 6 are as good as them, the quote does seem to be implying these are the best Swordsmen of the Order.

Originally posted by ares834
It's merely listing great swordsmen of the order not necessarily the greatest.

Strawman, he's not saying that. What he's saying is Depa and Shaak were lumped in with the best duelists in the order, 3 of which are level 9 swordsmen.

Additionally its not the first time Shaak Ti is grouped with the greatest swordsmen in the order.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Shaak Ti or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
^ Only reason Skywalker isn't there is because Dooku very often dismisses him as not as good.

Seems clear to me Shaak Ti is on Kenobi's level.

Again, it's Drallig, not Ti.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


Seems clear to me Shaak Ti is on Kenobi's level.


She could be below Kenobi or above him. We don't really know. What we do know is from EU Sources she seems to be in the elite few. And 2nd best known Makashi practitioner after Dooku.

That quote makes me respect Depa more than I did previously.

Also Marek, for doing as well as he did against Shaak Ti in sabers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Strawman, he's not saying that. What he's saying is Depa and Shaak were lumped in with the best duelists in the order, 3 of which are level 9 swordsmen.

Ah, no. That's exactly what he was saying. He is claiming that the quote lists of all of the greatest swordsmen of the order, which could be possible but isn't necessary.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Seems clear to me Shaak Ti is on Kenobi's level.

Hardly. Two quotes calling her a good swordsman don't put her on the level of a guy who has defeated Vader and Maul/Savage.

Shaak Ti is no where near as 9. Nick said that Obi-Wan step up to 8, what I understand that even being 8 is good. Only Kit Fisto can be 8 in here, since Agen and Saesee can't even tag Sidious and gets speedblitz.

And some people are forgetting that Savage did solo Anakin & Obi-Wan for a decent time ;

WmBL_RF1DNk

Savage can solo any duo here without trouble for a decent time, then Maul beats his team and helps Savage. Brothers wins.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sure, his views were pretty off imo, but his all-around debating skill is basically unmatched. This is the dude who gave a very legitimate argument that Palpatine would defeat Superman. And besides, if he said Maul>Revan, I'd like to see you try and convince him otherwise.


I think you'd be able to convince him that Revan may be a superior force user. All around combat, however, you might find that difficult.

DarthAnt? No.

Ant could. I believe in him.

Originally posted by ares834
Ah, no. That's exactly what he was saying. He is claiming that the quote lists of all of the greatest swordsmen of the order, which could be possible but isn't necessary.

But it does list the greatest swordsmen of the order. Yoda, Mace, Skywalker, Dooku, Kenobi all have a ton of exposure suggesting they are far, far above the likes of the B-team. Depa's performance against Mace suggest she is. Why would Shaak Ti be any different? Why would they just lump her in with the top five duelists of the order for shits?

The quote could have easily read just as well without Shaak Ti's inclusion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, it's Drallig, not Ti.

No it isn't the most up to date version of that quote is Shaak Ti.



The quotes don't say she's a good swordsman. Dooku specifically singles her, Kenobi, Mace and Yoda out of the Jedi Council.

Except I bought a brand new copy of the book at the store the other day, and it still says Drallig. Furthermore, you're the only person I've ever heard saying that Shaak replaces Drallig in the text. Do you actually own a copy that says Ti?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except I bought a brand new copy of the book at the store the other day, and it still says Drallig. Furthermore, you're the only person I've ever heard saying that Shaak replaces Drallig in the text. Do you actually own a copy that says Ti?

The other day? I call BS. And yes, not to mention Cin being there makes no sense considering he was never on the Council.


"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Shaak Ti, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"

I did, actually.

Anyway, if you own a copy that says that, I'm curious--take a snapshot of the page and upload it. Don't need a scan or anything fancy like that.

Just copied and pasted that quote into Google. The only result was from Lord Stark. I'll go check my copy, brb.

Alright, the book I have was from 2005. My dad was able to get it only a couple weeks after released:
"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"

Same.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Shaak Ti, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
watch?v=zaXCrMy2mwc

According to the internet, all physical editions of the book were printed in 2005, only foreign versions being more recent than that.

There is an E-book that was released in May of this year, but Shaak Ti being in the quote has been mentioned since long before then.

So yeah, I'd be interested in actually seeing the page.

EDIT: Don't go overboard, Ant.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Don't go overboard, Ant.
But... I am overboard. I live and thrive for these moments.
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1717235/nelson-haha-simpsons.gif