People who can defeat Sidious?

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Jmanghan
(This is excluding the following people who we KNOW can match/beat him, which are: Luke Skywalker, Yoda, The Mortis Group, besides that, it's good)

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Jmanghan
Oh, and also Full-Potential Anakin.

NewGuy01
Nobody.

ares834
Originally posted by Jmanghan
(This is excluding the following people who we KNOW can match/beat him, which are: Luke Skywalker, Yoda, The Mortis Group, besides that, it's good)

BEGIN!

Yoda can't beat him. He stalemated a weaker version.

Q99
There's a few who could in specific circumstances, Oneness of the Force moments and such.

Vader with Muur Talisman could.

Oh, and the Sando Aqua Jedi could.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-k0SVPFbkquw/T9FXyyDgmMI/AAAAAAAAAWI/vpVdXXQ-7mM/s1600/%21MOVING+THE+GOALPOSTS%21+Sample+Alpha.jpg

Emperordmb
Nobody else for a majority.

McP
Where are Mace's fanboys?!

Nargaroth
Originally posted by McP
Where are Mace's fanboys?!

Oh they'll probably come. Have faith.

Q99
Oh, do we mean beat him for the majority or can beat him period?

Mace won, but he'd be at more of a disadvantage if he didn't have his fellow masters with him to absorb the initial assault.

Caedus is a case of someone who could get some wins. Other major sith lords and grand masters are likely to get the odd win.

It's just, if you want someone who can do so for the *majority*, you're left with Luke, the Mortis gang, and the Sando Aqua Jedi.


Hm, or Nihilus? Dunno if Sids can stop the life-eating drain.

Sinious
A few deities oh and the Ancient Rakata like Soa, World Razer could probably defeat him.

Selenial
Originally posted by ares834
Yoda can't beat him. He stalemated a weaker version.

Yoda wasn't in his prime either

Selenial
Originally posted by Sinious
A few deities oh and the Ancient Rakata like Soa, World Razer could probably defeat him.

No to Soa.

Has anyone actually ****ing played the game they continuously talk about? Soa has literally no feats.

FreshestSlice
TOR characters don't need feats. Their implied competency and accolades are enough to conquer anything.

Sinious
Originally posted by Selenial
Soa has literally no feats.

Other than Mortis family and Luke, he defeats everyone by default. The point here is to list people who appear to be or are hyped as superior force users. Soa is featless yes and does that make him weaker than characters like Kit Fisto who has more than several feats?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
TOR characters don't need feats. Their implied competency and accolades are enough to conquer anything.

This mockery is coming from a guy who has Nihilus as his avatar and thinks he can drain whoever he faces. thumb up

Soa is not a TOR character. He just made a lame return in SWTOR. This is Soa ruling the Infinite Empire which is pre-TOR.

psmith81992
Soa doesn't need feats. He was a 50 foot Rakaka who had to be held down by the entire Rakatan Empire.

Nephthys
Swtore states that if Soa escapes Belsavis the galaxy is doomed.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtore states that if Soa escapes Belsavis the galaxy is doomed.

Right, well tell that to the Republic strike team who took him down without breaking a sweat.... His feats in that fight are also pathetic.

Selenial
Originally posted by Sinious
Other than Mortis family and Luke, he defeats everyone by default. The point here is to list people who appear to be or are hyped as superior force users. Soa is featless yes and does that make him weaker than characters like Kit Fisto who has more than several feats?



This mockery is coming from a guy who has Nihilus as his avatar and thinks he can drain whoever he faces. thumb up

Soa is not a TOR character. He just made a lame return in SWTOR. This is Soa ruling the Infinite Empire which is pre-TOR.

I hope to god you're trolling.

Emperordmb
Fisto has a hell of a lot more exposure than Soa, but based on implications, Soa is certainly well above Fisto.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
This mockery is coming from a guy who has Nihilus as his avatar and thinks he can drain whoever he faces. thumb up

Nihilus isn't featless and never been overcome in battle without being hindered. Where is Soa has no feats whatsoever.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. He's only faced in the game and only has feats from the game. In fact, iirc, he was introduced in this game. So yeah, he's a TOR character.

ares834
Originally posted by Selenial
Yoda wasn't in his prime either

And there is absolutely no evidence that a younger Yoda could defeat DE Sidious.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Selenial
Right, well tell that to the Republic strike team who took him down without breaking a sweat.... His feats in that fight are also pathetic.

Swtor protags > all.


Also:

Vitiate
Bane
Nihilus
Mace (duh)
Dread Masters (maybe)
Plagueis
Krayt
Unuthul is another maybe
Exar Kun
Talzin???
Hero of Umbara cool

Raptor22
Ill throw amped Nyax and the Mnggal-Mnggal into the mix.

Sinious
Originally posted by Selenial
I hope to god you're trolling.

I assume you thought I said Soa defeats all by default?

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ares834
And there is absolutely no evidence that a younger Yoda could defeat DE Sidious.

Yoda with superior TK and raw force power, and not tiring out...yeah I think he has a good shot. Prime Yoda is certainly superior to BM enhanced DE Luke.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nihilus isn't featless and never been overcome in battle without being hindered. Where is Soa has no feats whatsoever.



Who is the most powerful person Nihilus has faced and defeated 1on1? Not Traya cause he was with Sion. She probably didn't even fight back there.




Well he is a pre-TOR era character then.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtor protags > all.


Also:

Vitiate
Bane
Nihilus
Mace (duh)
Dread Masters (maybe)
Plagueis
Krayt
Unuthul is another maybe
Exar Kun
Talzin???
Hero of Umbara cool
Aside from Nihilus and Krayt who have crazy hacks, much better than Kun's imo, this list made me lol.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Who is the most powerful person Nihilus has faced and defeated 1on1? Not Traya cause he was with Sion. She probably didn't even fight back there.

Watch the scene. Nihilus defeats Traya on his own.

Not really. He only exists in the game. The fact that he was born long before it is irrelevant.

Nephthys
I forgot to add Traya.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Aside from Nihilus and Krayt who have crazy hacks, much better than Kun's imo, this list made me lol.

Well this is just who "can" beat him, not people who'd take a majority.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Watch the scene. Nihilus defeats Traya on his own.



"She probably didn't even fight back there. " and even if she did, so he is above Traya? Nothing suggests that he would be a threat to top tier sith/jedi cause he has no feats to indicate that just like Soa right?



He ruled an empire that enslaved the entire galaxy for who knows how long. His activity pre-TOR is much more important than his return in SWTOR but whatever dude.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys

Well this is just who "can" beat him, not people who'd take a majority.
Most of that list has next to no chance, really.
Originally posted by Sinious
"She probably didn't even fight back there. " and even if she did, so he is above Traya? Nothing suggests that he would be a threat to top tier sith/jedi cause he has no feats to indicate that just like Soa right?

You know, at least when carthage does it, his sentences actually make sense. I could hardly even read this garbage. As to the rest of it, that really doesn't matter. He has no showings from that time. He is only a TOR character and only exists in that game. But thanks for proving the point by saying his implied importance is somehow better than actual showings, where he loses badly.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You know, at least when carthage does it, his sentences actually make sense. I could hardly even read this garbage. As to the rest of it, that really doesn't matter. He has no showings from that time. He is only a TOR character and only exists in that game. But thanks for proving the point by saying his implied importance is somehow better than actual showings, where he loses badly.

I wasn't imitating Carthage but you. wink If I were you, I would either change my arguments or my avatar cause insulting people won't keep you safe from getting humiliated.

DarthAnt66
lol

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda with superior TK and raw force power, and not tiring out...yeah I think he has a good shot. Prime Yoda is certainly superior to BM enhanced DE Luke.


I believe Yoda was at his peak in regards to force power during ROTS. Sure, he wasn't in his prime when not calling on the force, but the same could be said about Sidious. ROTS Sidious and ROTJ Sidious would slaughter his youthful version.

NewGuy01
Do you even know what humility means? erm



In the Jedi Path it notes that Yoda had began declining since he hit 600-700 years old.

DarthAnt66
come to tof

NewGuy01
Yeah, you clearly have no idea.

1. The quality or condition of being humble;

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
come to tof
http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

NewGuy01
I saw that fail. Don't think that I didn't. Don't think that you were fast enough.

DarthAnt66
I planned on it, haven't caught your attention in a while. Come to TOF, my master.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
In the Jedi Path it notes that Yoda had began declining since he hit 600-700 years old.


Physically, or in the force? Palpatine was declining physically as of ROTJ, but he'd slaughter his youthful self on account of his mastery and increase of force power. Also, IIRC, one of the movie encyclopedia's attributes Yoda's power to living over 800 years, but I could be mistaken.

Do you have the quote? I know the quote about his claim to not being able to lift those stones is contradicted by his consistent showings.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I planned on it, haven't caught your attention in a while. Come to TOF, my master.

Very well.

NewGuy01
Even if his inability to lift the stones (which have undefined weight) is inconsistent, the fact that he was no longer able to lift more than five post-700 means he was declining since then as a force wielder.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if his inability to lift the stones (which have undefined weight) is inconsistent, the fact that he was no longer able to lift more than five post-700 means he was declining since then as a force wielder.


If it's inconsistent to superior feats then it wouldn't be a fact, which wouldn't be conclusive evidence of declining in the force.

Although, if the stones' weight were undefined then a case could be made. I thought they were defined, though? Regardless, I doubt that their weight approaches that of the landing crafts he destroyed. Furthermore, the only time age hindered a force users strength in the force, from what I can recall, is either if they are not actively using the force, or if they are dying and using the force to keep them alive. A force users connection to the force is deepened through meditation, which Yoda constantly does.

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Most of that list has next to no chance, really.

No, not really.

SIDIOUS 66
Yoda is the only force user who has a real chance of truly defeating Sidious, aside from the obvious posted in the OP or other god-like entities. Even though Sidious has his force storms, Yoda's speed would be sufficient to keep Sidious from using one mid combat.

ares834
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda with superior TK and raw force power, and not tiring out...yeah I think he has a good shot. Prime Yoda is certainly superior to BM enhanced DE Luke.

Based on what? Absolutely nothing.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If it's inconsistent to superior feats then it wouldn't be a fact, which wouldn't be conclusive evidence of declining in the force.

Although, if the stones' weight were undefined then a case could be made. I thought they were defined, though? Regardless, I doubt that their weight approaches that of the landing crafts he destroyed. Furthermore, the only time age hindered a force users strength in the force, from what I can recall, is either if they are not actively using the force, or if they are dying and using the force to keep them alive. A force users connection to the force is deepened through meditation, which Yoda constantly does.

All that's said about the stones is that they were multi-ton.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda is the only force user who has a real chance of truly defeating Sidious, aside from the obvious posted in the OP or other god-like entities. Even though Sidious has his force storms, Yoda's speed would be sufficient to keep Sidious from using one mid combat.

Isn't the Hero of Umbara a better duelist than Yoda tho? stick out tongue

Also... Mace?

chilled monkey
The Hero of Tython could beat Palpatine and I expect the Barsen'thor could too. Both of them are heckuva powerful.

Nephthys
big grin

Emperordmb
Han Solo cool

Lord Stark
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Physically, or in the force? Palpatine was declining physically as of ROTJ, but he'd slaughter his youthful self on account of his mastery and increase of force power. Also, IIRC, one of the movie encyclopedia's attributes Yoda's power to living over 800 years, but I could be mistaken.

Do you have the quote? I know the quote about his claim to not being able to lift those stones is contradicted by his consistent showings.

The Force, he was unable to move more than five of the Muntuur stones after the age of 700. By the time of ROTS Yoda has been past his prime for nigh 200 years.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Han Solo cool

Hoho, correct!

Selenial
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if his inability to lift the stones (which have undefined weight) is inconsistent, the fact that he was no longer able to lift more than five post-700 means he was declining since then as a force wielder.

We know how much they weigh, 1 stone each with the final stone weighing 5.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't the Hero of Umbara a better duelist than Yoda tho? stick out tongue

Also... Mace?

Hero of Umbara isn't Canon.

Nephthys
Who is, anymore. uhuh

Though yeah, probably not.

NewGuy01
I dunno, the story arcs from the game *are* canon.

Selenial
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I dunno, the story arcs from the game *are* canon.

Debatable.

Either way, mini games aren't.

Based
Why is DE Sids being assumed? And does OP mean majority or just in any instance?

FreshestSlice
So for the first part, why would DE Sidious not be assumed? We don't treat everyone else that way, why treat Sidious any different. Unless specified, it's prime Sidious.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by ares834
Yoda can't beat him. He stalemated a weaker version.

That doesn't mean he can't beat him. A stalemate could have been a victory had a few chips fallen differently.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yoda wasn't in his prime either

^and this.

Take a significant minority:
- Darth Caedus
- Orbalisk Bane (sabers only)
- Vitiate (force only, against Sidious's PT incarnation)
- Plagueis (force only, against PT Sidious)
- Mace Windu (if he's time to sink into vapaad)

Take a majority:
- prime Yoda? (pre-DE)
- prime Galen Marek?

Skybreaker
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I believe Yoda was at his peak in regards to force power during ROTS.

I do believe Yoda has said that his TK has declined, given that he cannot lift as many of those weird balls as he once could. At some point Yoda's strength in the Force would have peaked, and it probably peaked sometime long before the PT, and then one's deteriorating body decreases the exertion that one can perform with the Force. Given that Yoda was literally two decades away from his death bed in RotS, it stands to reason that a healthy young Yoda - like, just 300-400 years of age, would have comfortably handled Sidious. Yoda has that rare advantage of his physical and Force primes potentially intersecting.

DARTH POWER
Mace.

Sidious speed blitzes everyone else.

ares834
Originally posted by Skybreaker
That doesn't mean he can't beat him. A stalemate could have been a victory had a few chips fallen differently.

As I specified he stalemated a "weaker" version. He won't be able to defeat DE Sheev.

ares834
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace.

Sidious speed blitzes everyone else.

He speedblizes Mace as well. He was holding back massively in that fight and just toying with him.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by ares834
He speedblizes Mace as well. He was holding back massively in that fight and just toying with him.

Literally every canon source and basic common sense tell us otherwise.

Granted, he still may speedblitz Mace.

ares834
Oops, forgot to press the sarcasm button...

Nargaroth
Originally posted by ares834
He speedblizes Mace as well. He was holding back massively in that fight and just toying with him.

Sidious holding back is not conclusively proven. On the other hand, Mace being massively amped is.

ares834
Originally posted by ares834
Oops, forgot to press the sarcasm button...

Nargaroth
Originally posted by ares834


Oops, sorry for misunderstanding.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Nephthys
big grin

You're welcome.

I also think Grandmaster Satele Shan could beat Palpatine.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ares834
He speedblizes Mace as well. He was holding back massively in that fight and just toying with him.

No. He had a serious expression, I.e. He wasn't toying with Mace.

With Yoda on the other hand... Sidious was clearly toying there. The laughter and smiley face proves that.

Board Walker
Nihilus stomps sidious 10/10 via force connection devour or TK ragdoll

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by chilled monkey
You're welcome.

I also think Grandmaster Satele Shan could beat Palpatine.
I lol'd.

Sinious
Originally posted by Board Walker
Nihilus stomps sidious 10/10 via force connection devour or TK ragdoll

bunny

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER


With Yoda on the other hand... Sidious was clearly toying there. The laughter and smiley face proves that.

thumb up

chilled monkey
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I lol'd.

Why?

Remember Satele Shan is roughly on par with Yoda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRo6m_W-ro8&list=PLIA1zt8Lh3E2KMMayynCiC4ytzJLDwYXY

She could definitely get in at least a few wins against Palpatine.

FreshestSlice
Yoda level?! You're killing me, guy! laughing

KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace... Yoda for starters

Stigma
Luke, Yoda, Mace (under special circumstances), Caedus, Plagueis... Not sure about Nihilus, as Sidious is so much faster and is confirmed as more powerful than Nihilus anyway.
Preped/amped Vitiate has a shot in the force, but in a duel he gets crashed.
The opposite is true for RoT Bane. In sabers he has a shot (mainly due to Orbalisk), but in the force Sidious clearly wins.

GenomeFrozener
Originally posted by Board Walker
Nihilus stomps sidious 10/10 via force connection devour or TK ragdoll

I was gonna say this, but with a food consumption joke.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yoda level?! You're killing me, guy! laughing

I doubt that he is serious.

ILS
Darth Venamis would curbstomp Sidious

chilled monkey
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yoda level?! You're killing me, guy! laughing

So did you just miss the link I provided?

Also it's interesting that you can't provide evidence yourself.

Originally posted by Sinious
I doubt that he is serious.

I am totally serious. Unlike some people I actually consider the facts. I don't just go "yurr Yoda (etc.) wins cos he's Yoda (etc.) and wuz in de movies durr."

ares834
laughcry

Marco1907
Plagueis, Mace & Yoda for starters.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by chilled monkey
So did you just miss the link I provided?


Evidence is a video that doesn't even begin to compare Satele to Yoda.
Originally posted by ares834
laughcry

Jmanghan
Originally posted by chilled monkey
So did you just miss the link I provided?

Also it's interesting that you can't provide evidence yourself.



I am totally serious. Unlike some people I actually consider the facts. I don't just go "yurr Yoda (etc.) wins cos he's Yoda (etc.) and wuz in de movies durr." Anyone on this planet who would compare Satele ****ING Shan, someone who's basically around Revan's level, to YODA of all people, is a moron. Not just you, but ANYONE who would compare them.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Satele really isn't Revan level.

Sinious
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I am totally serious. Unlike some people I actually consider the facts. I don't just go "yurr Yoda (etc.) wins cos he's Yoda (etc.) and wuz in de movies durr."

When has Satele ever done something as impressive as stalemating ROTS Sidious?

Jmanghan
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Satele really isn't Revan level.

Eh, I don't consider them Equals, more like, in the Same Tier.

FreshestSlice
She's about the upper part of the tier below Revan.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Satele really isn't Revan level.


Speaking of Revan, how far above Revan do you place Vitiate on neutral ground. Do you think if their confrontation had happened off a nexus that Revan would have had a chance of scoring a victory?

Edit: I'm referring to Vitiate as he was in the Revan novel.

Skybreaker
Unuthul, maybe?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Speaking of Revan, how far above Revan do you place Vitiate on neutral ground. Do you think if their confrontation had happened off a nexus that Revan would have had a chance of scoring a victory?

Edit: I'm referring to Vitiate as he was in the Revan novel.

Well, in the novel it's stated twice that Revan couldn't fight the emperor for long and that he'd have little chance of winning alone, and I doubt Revan was taking the nexus into consideration. That said, even if he did, Revan still has little chance of defeating him, IMO.

Arhael
I don't think DE Sidious is more capable in combat than he was in RotS.

By RotS Sidious is already the most powerful Sith with complete knowledge of Rule of Two who went through countless trials under Plagueis. There is simply no room for improvement. Force Storm is the only difference but that's just a technique, it doesn't prove that he got more powerful.

Skybreaker
Sidious gathered a huge reserve of Force lore between RotS and RotJ, and then got himself into a new, healthy young body in DE. I doubt that he's peaked by RotS; remember that Dooku was in his 70s in TPM and still growing stronger, and Palpatine not only has a higher ceiling, but also starting his training at a later age. I also doubt that Force storms and essence transfer are the only new technique Sidious has learned in another 30+ years of studying the dark side. It's not as though he's omniscient by RotS.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Arhael
I don't think DE Sidious is more capable in combat than he was in RotS.

By RotS Sidious is already the most powerful Sith with complete knowledge of Rule of Two who went through countless trials under Plagueis. There is simply no room for improvement. Force Storm is the only difference but that's just a technique, it doesn't prove that he got more powerful. Sidious did indeed get more powerful.

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