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Darth Vader (OT)
Darth Tyranus
Darth Maul

vs.

(pseudo-gauntlet)

Darth Sidious (RotS)
Darth Sidious (RotJ)
Darth Sidiouis (DE)

Brothers win this one very solidly.

^thread entirely altered, as the prior was a duplicate

Sidious stomps. None of them can defend against his speed if he is not toying, and none of them can avoid being fried by Lightning (and no, Dooku and Maul would not fare better than Vader against it), not to mention that he can stomp at least two of them together with TK, which would leave the other alone to be wrecked as well. DE Sidious wins even more easily with his Force Wormhole, which, again, none of them can defend against or counter, and I seriously doubt they could use Force Harmony like Luke or Leia.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
none of them can avoid being fried by Lightning

I've always found the assumption that Vader is by default defenseless against Force lightning pretty silly, particularly in light of his performance in TUF, and based entirely on the fact that he cannot withstand Sidious's lightning while he has his arms around his waist and is throwing him down a reactor shaft.

The problem is none of these people have any synergy.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
I've always found the assumption that Vader is by default defenseless against Force lightning pretty silly, particularly in light of his performance in TUF, and based entirely on the fact that he cannot withstand Sidious's lightning while he has his arms around his waist and is throwing him down a reactor shaft.

I think you're arguing with the wrong person. I am actually one of those people who argue against that misconception, and Vader's feats (tanking the Starkiller clone's Lightning, tanking a Dark Jedi's Lightning+TK blast, etc) exceed anything Maul and Dooku have shown in this regard. The point is that Vader is facing the most powerful Sith Lord ever, and he, just like the other two, can't defend against Lightning as powerful as Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
The point is that Vader is facing the most powerful Sith Lord ever, and he, just like the other two, can't defend against Lightning as powerful as Palpatine's.

If his lightning fails to overpower Windu at point blank, the Sidious of RotS is going to struggle to overcome a Vader that is 80% of the Palpatine we see in RotJ. He isn't going to overpower them all at the same time, and the others aren't just going to stand there and watch.

Windu channeled all of the lightning out of him with Vaapad. Vader can't do that.

Sidious sure as hell isn't stomping.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Windu channeled all of the lightning out of him with Vaapad. Vader can't do that.

No, but he can hold his lightsaber in front of him and hope his teammates kill Palpatine while he's occupied.

The difference being that Vader will have to actively absorb all of the Lightning. Lightning that was getting progressively stronger well before Sidious' completely mastered his Force abilities, which was some time after RotS. So while RotS sidious might fall, RotJ Sidious probably won't using this tactic.
Originally posted by ares834
Sidious sure as hell isn't stomping.
Yeah.

Sidious clearly speed blitzes them.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The difference being that Vader will have to actively absorb all of the Lightning.

Which he only has to do for long enough for the other two to lunge in and kill their master, ie, 3 seconds.



What tactic is he going to use, then? He can ragdoll Maul and possibly Dooku, or possibly even both, but Vader here presents a far tougher cookie to crack, and just the slightest opening is enough for someone to stick a lightsaber through his guts.

Apprentices in a very close fight.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
None of them can defend against his speed if he is not toying,

Are you f**** kidding me ? Even Savage tagged Sidious...

Originally posted by Marco1907
Apprentices in a very close fight.



Are you f**** kidding me ? Even Savage tagged Sidious...
The thing is that Savage tagged Sidious precisely because Sheev was toying with him.

But other than that I agree. This is a very close figth. As I see it:

1) RotS Sidious might actually lose more often than not. The team's combined force-power is just too much.

2) RotJ Sidious: it's 50/50 split

3) DE Sidious wins this.

Sidious, every round.

Probably Sidious, though not without a good degree of difficulty, depending on how seriously he takes this.

DE Sidious can solo this. Maul is fodder to him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Sidious can solo this. Maul is fodder to him.
..as are Vader and Dooku

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Sidious can solo this. Maul is fodder to him.

Doesn't that apply to most people?

Yep.

Sidious losses and losses a solid majority

Originally posted by Stigma
The thing is that Savage tagged Sidious precisely because Sheev was toying with him.


A fool Sidious fanboy claimed that Sidious toyed with them, and this shit still goes on.

Dave Filoni, Supervising Director of TCW, right handman of Lucas and now Director of Rebels said this ;

''He puts up a better fight than jedi council did.''

Link below ;

http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

Really, this stupidity of comparing high level beings with Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar needs to stop. There is a reason that these guys are featless in new canon. They are suck ass.

Even Kit Fisto is not at Savage's level in terms of dueling skill (due to his style shii-cho), and he deflected 3 attack from Sidious.

And there we have it folks, you can all go now. We have the answers.

oh you shut up, go back to your ''so called star wars experts'' and argue with them how awesome sidious really is...

I was being sincere

Originally posted by Marco1907
A fool Sidious fanboy claimed that Sidious toyed with them, and this shit still goes on.


The Tempest is still a noob, but that duel lasted about as long as Sidious wanted it to. It was pretty f*cking clear when Sidious wanted to kill Savage, and Savage was dead 5 seconds afterwards. Sidious didn't have a gridlock with the two until one of them made a mistake or left an opening; he just killed them with ease at the time of his own choosing.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
The Tempest is still a noob, but that duel lasted about as long as Sidious wanted it to. It was pretty f*cking clear when Sidious wanted to kill Savage, and Savage was dead 5 seconds afterwards. Sidious didn't have a gridlock with the two until one of them made a mistake or left an opening; he just killed them with ease at the time of his own choosing.

Yeah, I think that is why Savage and Maul gave two physical hit to Sidious, because he wanted to take those.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
The Tempest is still a noob, but that duel lasted about as long as Sidious wanted it to. It was pretty f*cking clear when Sidious wanted to kill Savage, and Savage was dead 5 seconds afterwards. Sidious didn't have a gridlock with the two until one of them made a mistake or left an opening; he just killed them with ease at the time of his own choosing.


No.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No.



Yes. excellent

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No.

It's not as though Palpatine had the two immobilized and pinned to the wall and just let them fall and draw their lightsabers, or anything.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah, I think that is why Savage and Maul gave two physical hit to Sidious, because he wanted to take those.

And those physical hits did...what to Sidious again?

Originally posted by Skybreaker


And those physical hits did...what to Sidious again?

Throwed him like a *****...

Sidious takes this

Originally posted by Marco1907
Throwed him like a *****...

Oh really? I don't see Sidious being injured, distraught or otherwise affected by their hits at all. If anything, getting kicked off that balcony just let Sidious move the duel to an open field, a tactically superior position for himself.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
It's not as though Palpatine had the two immobilized and pinned to the wall and just let them fall and draw their lightsabers, or anything.




It's not like Sidious KO'd Yoda with FL, but then just let him get back up, recover, attack him back and draw out his Lightsaber or anything Sidious can be a cocky s***. However even in ROTS he never takes out his Sabers until his Opponent(s) do first. He's always given his opponents the opportunity to do that.

But that's all different to claiming the whole Saber fight was just a charade which Sidious could have stopped any second he wanted.

He kicked their asses anyway, so I don't see why people can't just accept the ass kicking we were given, but insist on making it even worse for the poor Maul bros than it already was

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not like Sidious KO'd Yoda with FL, but then just let him get back up, recover and attack him back Sidious can be a cocky s***. However even in ROTS he never takes out his Sabers until his Opponent(s) do first. He's always given his opponents the opportunity to do that.

This is something of a non-sequitur in that it really doesn't address the point at all nor is it really relevant to it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is something of a non-sequitur in that it really doesn't address the point at all nor is it really relevant to it.



Really?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

Seriously. What you said does nothing to refute or contradict his point. All you've established is that Sidious probably could have killed Yoda a hell of a lot quicker if he wasn't cocky.

But beyond that, quickly zapping Yoda isn't equitable to leisurely pinning Maul and Opress, resisting their efforts to escape, and releasing them of their own accord.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER It's not like Sidious KO'd Yoda with FL, but then just let him get back up, recover, attack him back and draw out his Lightsaber or anything

WTF does this do to refute my point that "the duel lasted about as long as Sidious wanted it to"? And what makes you think the two situations are even remotely comparable; Maul and Savage were physically immobilized against their visible struggles, while Yoda had merely been taken aback. The analogy isn't there in the slightest.



He immediately goes on the offensive against Windu and the B team, because he sees them as a legitimate threat. After his initial f*cking around against Yoda (who returns the favor by also just standing there after he pushes Sidious), he tries to flee, and then proceeds to engage in a duel where he shows palpable fear on multiple occasions. Against the brothers, there is exactly one point in time where Sidious shows any sign of struggle, and that is when he is locking blades with an enraged Maul, ie, a contest of physical strength. Outside of that, he is obviously in complete control of the whole confrontation.



Watch the fight more carefully; the instant Sidious actually goes on the offensive, he kills Savage within seconds.



Sidious deliberately passed up multiple potential tactical advantages; this is not a sign that he was exerting himself to the fullest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Seriously. What you said does nothing to refute or contradict his point. All you've established is that Sidious probably could have killed Yoda a hell of a lot quicker if he wasn't cocky.

But beyond that, quickly zapping Yoda isn't equitable to leisurely pinning Maul and Opress, resisting their efforts to escape, and releasing them of theirhis own accord.

Corrected.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
WTF does this do to refute my point that "the duel lasted about as long as Sidious wanted it to"?

Well maybe because I didn't give that in response to "the duel lasted as long as he wanted to" argument, and instead gave it as a response to you talking about the initial force attack somehow proving that he "he could have ended the entire Saber fight any time he wanted."


Originally posted by Skybreaker
And what makes you think the two situations are even remotely comparable; Maul and Savage were physically immobilized against their visible struggles, while Yoda had merely been taken aback. The analogy isn't there in the slightest.


Yoda was KO'd

The inital Force attacks in both situations are very comparable because he had them both at his mercy right at the beginning.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
He immediately goes on the offensive against Windu and the B team, because he sees them as a legitimate threat.

Well no not immediately. He does talk to them first and does wait for them to draw out their Sabers.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
After his initial f*cking around against Yoda (who returns the favor by also just standing there after he pushes Sidious), he tries to flee, and then proceeds to engage in a duel where he shows palpable fear on multiple occasions.


That's all absolutely irrelevant to the fact that he did f*** around with that initial attack. And actually just proves him f***ing around with his initial attack, has no bearing on the fight that follows.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Against the brothers, there is exactly one point in time where Sidious shows any sign of struggle, and that is when he is locking blades with an enraged Maul, ie, a contest of physical strength. Outside of that, he is obviously in complete control of the whole confrontation.


So being the superior combatant and the one who is in control suddenly means he can stab them any second he wants?



Originally posted by Skybreaker
Watch the fight more carefully; the instant Sidious actually goes on the offensive, he kills Savage within seconds.

What? You think that was the first time he made any kind of offensive move?

Seems like your the one who needs to watch the fight again bro.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
Sidious deliberately passed up multiple potential tactical advantages; this is not a sign that he was exerting himself to the fullest.


Speculation.

There's a reason Filoni specifically gave Opress credit for putting up a better fight than the B-Team. Because Maul and Opress are far below Sidious (which is why they got battered), but still solidly above a B-Team Saber/Speed blitz level.

It is well and truly embarrassing that you're turning every discussion about Sidious/Maul/Opress into a comparison with the B-Team. Skybreaker didn't compare the two teams at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well maybe because I didn't give that in response to "the duel lasted as long as he wanted to" argument, and instead gave it as a response to you talking about the initial force attack somehow proving that he "he could have ended the entire Saber fight any time he wanted."


...those are identical assertions in different wording.



Been established on multiple occasions that precognition works whether the user is conscious or not. Yoda, if he was KO'd at all, was only out for, what, 10 seconds? Let's not pretend he would have just laid there and let Sidious lunge across the room and kill him.

Of course, I don't see why I have to entertain this argument at all, since it has nothing to do with my point that the fight lasted as long as Sidious wanted it to. It is an especially stupid point given that Sidious clearly caught Yoda off guard, yet Maul and Savage not only tried to move against Sidious first, but were unable to break Sidious's TK despite their conscious efforts. Your analogy fails on a copious number of levels.



The difference being, Sidious's advantage over Yoda comes from Yoda being an overconfident little prick; Sidious's advantage against the brothers comes from clearly being able to overpower them and pin them against the wall against their active struggles.



Yeah, nitpicking aside, do you have anything to say? Anything at all?



And please explain to me why you can dismiss the fact that Sidious was powerful enough to telekinetically pin them both to the wall at his leisure, as though this weren't indicative of their respective abilities or anything.



Jesus f*cking Christ, did you seriously think that by "the fight lasted as long as Sidious wanted it to", I meant that he could literally stab them at will?

Consider Dooku's fight against Obi Wan in AotC; he was obviously toying with Kenobi and disabled him at his leisure. This does not mean that he could simply swing his lightsaber and Obi Wan would die. It does mean that the "fight" was not at all a legitimate one.




Going on the offensive and making individual offensive moves aren't equivalent phrases. The former is obviously a tactic; Sidious was slightly on the defensive at times when he didn't have to be on the defensive at all. It's pretty obvious when Sidious was fighting to kill, and when he was f*cking around, and the disparity in results we see.



Yeah, the fact that a serious lightsaber duel between the trio might last longer than...what, 5 seconds in real time, doesn't mean that the fight wouldn't last about as long as Sidious wanted it to. You clearly took my phrasing 100% literally, where I was to suggest that he could literally kill Savage or Maul in one stab, as he did Kolar. That obviously isn't what I f*cking meant.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
...those are identical assertions in different wording.



Been established on multiple occasions that precognition works whether the user is conscious or not. Yoda, if he was KO'd at all, was only out for, what, 10 seconds? Let's not pretend he would have just laid there and let Sidious lunge across the room and kill him.

Of course, I don't see why I have to entertain this argument at all, since it has nothing to do with my point that the fight lasted as long as Sidious wanted it to. It is an especially stupid point given that Sidious clearly caught Yoda off guard, yet Maul and Savage not only tried to move against Sidious first, but were unable to break Sidious's TK despite their conscious efforts. Your analogy fails on a copious number of levels.



The difference being, Sidious's advantage over Yoda comes from Yoda being an overconfident little prick; Sidious's advantage against the brothers comes from clearly being able to overpower them and pin them against the wall against their active struggles.



Yeah, nitpicking aside, do you have anything to say? Anything at all?



And please explain to me why you can dismiss the fact that Sidious was powerful enough to telekinetically pin them both to the wall at his leisure, as though this weren't indicative of their respective abilities or anything.

Of course you have to entertain the point, considering you brought up the idea that because Sidious overpowered the Brothers at the beginning of the fight, that somehow makes the rest of the battle a complete farce or something.

Sidious had them pinned at that point, but really what else could he have done? Could he have killed them with that Pin? Possibly, but how long would that have taken to completely crush them, and how much energy would that have cost Sidious? We don't know.

There's at the very least a pretty decent f***ing chance that if Sidious leapt at Yoda with his Saber when Yoda was KO'd that he could have killed him. It was by far the best opportunity he got in the whole fight to KILL Yoda.
So Just because he let Yoda recover and gave him a chance to get back into the fight, didn't make the rest of the battle a farce did it?

I get that obviously the difference is the Brothers struggled against that pin but could not overpower Sidious. But the principle is the same- That Sidious could have very possibly killed Yoda then, but didn't take the opportunity and acted in a pretty relaxed manner. Sidious could have very possibly killed the Brothers with that initial force pin, but didn't continue with that opportunity and acted in a pretty relaxed manner.

None of that make the fights that followed a complete farce.


And honestly if they actually WANTED to SHOW that the fight went on as long as Sidious "Allowed" it to, they could have SHOWN that very easily, with nothing left to debate.

They could have had him doing what Yoda did to Ventress in the very first episode of TCW. Completely freeze them, pull their Lightsabers into his hands, inspect them, then give them their weapons back.

Filoni also had plenty of opportunity in his countless commentaries on the fight (it's not every fight we get that much of a commentary on) to say "The fight lasted as long as Sidious wanted," or "He could have stopped it anytime he wanted," or "He was just Toying with them the whole time."

But we got none of that. The most we got was that Sidious was well above them in power, and that he kicked their butts, and enjoyed himself. But we already know the enjoying himself is in character for him, as he laughed his head off agianst Yoda as well, and the Official site confirms Sidious took Delight in engaging Yoda too.


Originally posted by Skybreaker
Jesus f*cking Christ, did you seriously think that by "the fight lasted as long as Sidious wanted it to", I meant that he could literally stab them at will?

Consider Dooku's fight against Obi Wan in AotC; he was obviously toying with Kenobi and disabled him at his leisure. This does not mean that he could simply swing his lightsaber and Obi Wan would die. It does mean that the "fight" was not at all a legitimate one.




Going on the offensive and making individual offensive moves aren't equivalent phrases. The former is obviously a tactic; Sidious was slightly on the defensive at times when he didn't have to be on the defensive at all. It's pretty obvious when Sidious was fighting to kill, and when he was f*cking around, and the disparity in results we see.



Yeah, the fact that a serious lightsaber duel between the trio might last longer than...what, 5 seconds in real time, doesn't mean that the fight wouldn't last about as long as Sidious wanted it to. You clearly took my phrasing 100% literally, where I was to suggest that he could literally kill Savage or Maul in one stab, as he did Kolar. That obviously isn't what I f*cking meant.


Ah right, I took your assertion in completely the wrong way then. Apologies. But in my defense there are a couple of people on these boards who do believe that Sidious could kill them any second he wants in 1 stab. So I'm used to arguing against that absurd assertion.

But in terms of comparing it to the Dooku vs Obi-Wan and that not being a legitimate fight- Well just so you know Filoni did call the fight just that- "A legitimate one."

So I stand by the assertion that at least the whole Saber portion of the fight was completely legitimate. That's what the creators wanted after all- an epic Lightsaber fight). Not an equal one, but an epic one nonetheless. I see the fight more as a Dooku vs Ventress 1 vs 1 we got in TCW Season 3 "Witches of the Mist", than the AOTC Dooku vs Kenobi fight. Because I see it as a Legitimate fight, but one in which the Brothers were completely outmatched, and had no chance of winning (or even escaping).


I also think the reason Sidious was on the defensive sometimes is because that's what happens when you have 2 Sabers striking at you simultaneously from different directions. Because what else do you do when you have 2 Lightsabers coming towards you? You have to defend yourself. Doesn't mean you're in trouble or anything, or that the superiority in the fight has shifted in any way.

Could Sidious have ended the whole thing right at the beginning of the fight if he just went all out with his Tk and Fl? Quite possibly. But once Sabers start clashing, the game completely changes.

If one Force user manages to catch another with proper Force grip, it is very hard to break free even for a superior Force user.

cIN8QXeDeUo

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And honestly if they actually WANTED to SHOW that the fight went on as long as Sidious "Allowed" it to, they could have SHOWN that very easily, with nothing left to debate.

They could have had him doing what Yoda did to Ventress in the very first episode of TCW. Completely freeze them, pull their Lightsabers into his hands, inspect them, then give them their weapons back.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wocSa-jbceg/UVnpLrwPXLI/AAAAAAAALLQ/AibDFe51hVA/s1600/britney-confused.gif

Explain to me how what Yoda did to Ventress was as remotely impressive or decisive or speaking of advantage as what Sidious did by pinning the brothers.

@^

Originally posted by Arhael
If one Force user manages to catch another with proper Force grip, it is very hard to break free even for a superior Force user.

cIN8QXeDeUo

This plus surprise?

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Explain to me how what Yoda did to Ventress was as remotely impressive or decisive or speaking of advantage as what Sidious did by pinning the brothers.


Really?

In terms of feats? Sidious's likely the more impressive one given that he did it to 2 opponents, both of whom are probably more powerful than the 1 person Yoda did it to..

But in terms of comparing the actual effect on the opponents from a combat perspective, Yoda's was definitely the more decisive one for the audience to see.

Ventress already had her Sabers out and ignited, yet couldn't even strike once. Yoda took her Sabers off her, leaving her completely defenseless against any potential Saber attack from Yoda. He then gave them back.

An actual Lightsaber fight after that would have looked completely idiotic in that scene.

May I remind you that Filoni and crew did not want an idiotic looking/pointless Saber fight, but a Legitimate and Epic one. But one in which it was clear who was superior the whole time, as you will rightfully keep pointing out.

Now I'm not saying Sidious couldn't have won with the inital Tk attack, just that it didn't render the whole rest of the fight as completely inconsequential the way Yoda's attack on Ventress would have to any further fight they would have had.

If at any point after the Brothers drew their Sabers had Sidious just frozen them both so they couldn't even strike... Or better yet taken their Sabers off them and given them back... Then that would be as Decisive an Instant Victory as the one Yoda had over Ventress. So like I said, it wasn't something difficult to show the Audience if that's what they wanted to show. Or anything so hard to explain, in the numerous commentaries Filoni's given on the subject.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

In terms of feats? Sidious's likely the more impressive one given that he did it to 2 opponents, both of whom are probably more powerful than the 1 person Yoda did it to..

But in terms of comparing the actual effect on the opponents from a combat perspective, Yoda's was definitely the more decisive one for the audience to see.

Ventress already had her Sabers out and ignited, yet couldn't even strike once. Yoda took her Sabers off her, leaving her completely defenseless against any potential Saber attack from Yoda. He then gave them back.

An actual Lightsaber fight after that would have looked completely idiotic in that scene.

May I remind you that Filoni and crew did not want an idiotic looking/pointless Saber fight, but a Legitimate and Epic one. But one in which it was clear who was superior the whole time, as you will rightfully keep pointing out.

Now I'm not saying Sidious couldn't have won with the inital Tk attack, just that it didn't render the whole rest of the fight as completely inconsequential the way Yoda's attack on Ventress would have to any further fight they would have had.

If at any point after the Brothers drew their Sabers had Sidious just frozen them both so they couldn't even strike... Or better yet taken their Sabers off them and given them back... Then that would be as Decisive an Instant Victory as the one Yoda had over Ventress. So like I said, it wasn't something difficult to show the Audience if that's what they wanted to show. Or anything so hard to explain, in the numerous commentaries Filoni's given on the subject.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KuuktJh6c8I/T7yUjp9e_aI/AAAAAAAABOY/sLHmTr9Mwdc/s1600/misfits.gif

I don't even know how to proceed from here. You're honestly telling me that Yoda telekinetically disarming Ventress displays greater dominance and command of the situation than Sidious telekinetically pinning the brothers?

To clarify, I really really want you to stop and genuinely think about this and the implications of what you're saying before we move forward.

Yoda's TK a little better than Sidious'.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

I don't even know how to proceed from here. You're honestly telling me that Yoda telekinetically disarming Ventress displays greater dominance and command of the situation than Sidious telekinetically pinning the brothers?

To clarify, I really really want you to stop and genuinely think about this and the implications of what you're saying before we move forward.


Well disarming someone of their Lightsaber, then giving them back would make a Lightsaber fight kind of pointless don't you think? And kind of outright prove there's no need for a Saber fight.

Sidious pinning the Brothers for a few moments was more akin to Dooku pinning Ventress to a wall. That didn't mean Dooku could stop Ventress from even striking her Saber and freeze her or mean Dooku could grab Ventress's Lightsabers anytime he liked did it?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course you have to entertain the point, considering you brought up the idea that because Sidious overpowered the Brothers at the beginning of the fight, that somehow makes the rest of the battle a complete farce or something.


It makes it pretty absurd for you to suggest that Palpatine easily immobilizes them with a gesture, and then decides to engage in a lightsaber duel in which, by your reckoning, he needs to fight for his life. He was obviously so far beyond the brothers that he had no need to go all-out in sabers; the only reason why he would want to is if he wanted to end the fight quickly without threat to his person, but if that were his objective he would have just killed them from the outset!



Are you f*cking kidding me? You seriously don't recognize the insurmountable tactical advantage having your enemies pinned helplessly against a wall gives you?



OK, let's take your assertion at face value, and run with it. Sidious initially doesn't take Yoda very seriously, but then Yoda knocks his ass on a chair, and take a look at Palpatine's reaction; he's suddenly very, very afraid. Now, please explain to me where that change in sentiment, that realization that he had severely underestimated his enemy, appears in his fight against the brothers. Just FYI, that was a rhetorical request; you won't be able to find it, because in this case he didn't underestimate his opposition at all.

After getting a wake-up call against Yoda, Palpatine does utilize every tool in his disposal to walk out of that chamber alive, including trying to flee. The one time when he clearly does something tactically unwise - laugh while flinging his latest pod down at Yoda - not only did he actually have a rather large tactical advantage, but he was also punished for his inaction and nearly killed. Afterwards, you can see that he demonstrates palpable fear, and resorts to FL when Yoda again appears. This isn't remotely analogous to his fight with the brothers, as much as you'd like to continue to parrot it.



If you're going to appeal to out of universe intent, just consider the ratings difference one would see between Sidious killing the brothers with a gesture, and Sidious engaging the two in a visually entertaining, but ultimately pre-determined lightsaber exchange. You are, either way, clearly desperate when your only path to run to is to speculate about what they "wanted" to show.



That's essentially what Palpatine did; he pinned them against the wall, laughed, then let them draw their weapons and try to fight him.



Sidious also visibly shows fear for his wellbeing on multiple occasions during his confrontation with Yoda. His face reflects such a struggle exactly once during his duel with Maul.



You and I obviously have different definitions of "legitimate". They were using real lightsabers and using real moves; this does not suggest that Sidious was fighting against the brothers with the same level of intensity as he was fighting Mace Windu. Your curious logic tells us that Palpatine decided to go all-out against the brothers despite obviously not needing to, which suggests that he wanted to end the fight quickly, but decided not to kill them when he could have with a wrist flick at the start of the fight. It has been explained time and time again to you that this doesn't make any f*cking sense, and you've done absolutely nothing to defend it, incongruous analogies to Yoda notwithstanding.



Yeah, Palpatine had clearly demonstrated his ability to separate the two of his own volition. It kind of works that way when the disparity in Force power is sufficient to ragdoll the others at your whim.



So Palpatine went all-out in sabers but not in the actual holistic sum of his abilities? Do you realize how absurdly self-contradicting this is?

Originally posted by Skybreaker
It makes it pretty absurd for you to suggest that Palpatine easily immobilizes them with a gesture, and then decides to engage in a lightsaber duel in which, by your reckoning, he needs to fight for his life. He was obviously so far beyond the brothers that he had no need to go all-out in sabers; the only reason why he would want to is if he wanted to end the fight quickly without threat to his person, but if that were his objective he would have just killed them from the outset!


You do realize he was actively attacking them with that initail Immobilzation right?

They were able to move again when he put his hands down. But were they KO'd? Were they disarmed? So how exactly were they outright defeated already?

In Revival, Maul levitates Kenobi (seemingly casually as well), has him frozen, then puts him down at his own by his own will.

Does that mean Maul was fooling around after that? Does that mean Kenobi was already beaten?

Stop just for a second and think comparatively in the medium we are talking about, and stop pretending this fight was the only time someone has pinned someone else, and proved beyond a doubt the fight was over, just so you can try and pretend you have any basis at all for your initial baseless assertion that the fight lasted as long as "Sidious wanted it to."



Originally posted by Skybreaker
Are you f*cking kidding me? You seriously don't recognize the insurmountable tactical advantage having your enemies pinned helplessly against a wall gives you?


Again depends what he could do from there, considering he was actively holding them there.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
OK, let's take your assertion at face value, and run with it. Sidious initially doesn't take Yoda very seriously, but then Yoda knocks his ass on a chair, and take a look at Palpatine's reaction; he's suddenly very, very afraid. Now, please explain to me where that change in sentiment, that realization that he had severely underestimated his enemy, appears in his fight against the brothers. Just FYI, that was a rhetorical request; you won't be able to find it, because in this case he didn't underestimate his opposition at all.

After getting a wake-up call against Yoda, Palpatine does utilize every tool in his disposal to walk out of that chamber alive, including trying to flee. The one time when he clearly does something tactically unwise - laugh while flinging his latest pod down at Yoda - not only did he actually have a rather large tactical advantage, but he was also punished for his inaction and nearly killed. Afterwards, you can see that he demonstrates palpable fear, and resorts to FL when Yoda again appears. This isn't remotely analogous to his fight with the brothers, as much as you'd like to continue to parrot it.


LOL You're acting as if Palpatine didn't know Yoda was the most powerful Jedi alive and clearly a threat to him.

You're acting as if Palpatine needed to fight Yoda to realize he may be a threat.

Oh and do you not see the tactical advantage of having your most dangerous opponent knocked out in front of you LOL

Stop using double standards and think for a second. It's clear from the Yoda example that it's IN CHARACTER (do you know what that means?) to act a bit cocky at times. That however doesn't somehow mean he's not trying the rest of the fight. Or that things things can't shift a little once Sabers are out and in play.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
If you're going to appeal to out of universe intent, just consider the ratings difference one would see between Sidious killing the brothers with a gesture, and Sidious engaging the two in a visually entertaining, but ultimately pre-determined lightsaber exchange. You are, either way, clearly desperate when your only path to run to is to speculate about what they "wanted" to show.


Yes your right, IF they actually made it blatantly obvious that Sidious has won any second he wants to win(as was the case with Yoda and Ventress), then yeah the fight would look stupid as hell. And would lose ratings/dvd sales. They've said it straight, it was a "Legitimate" fight, and an Epic Lightsaber battle is what they wanted.

And yet your claiming that is the case, that it was blatantly obvious that the fight was lasting as long as Sidious allowed it. That he could have finished it any second he wanted.

I'm telling you straight, That IF THAT WERE to be made blatantly obvious, it would have been done with nothing to debate like it was with Yoda/Ventress. They could have had the Brothers about to strike at Sidious, but Sidious freezes their strikes (as Yoda does to Ventress). Then they could have kept fighting. Then later in the fight they could have had Sidious draw their weapons into his hands, while he inspects them, and then gives them their weapons back (again as Yoda does to Ventress in the same damn show) and then kept on fighting.

Now THAT would have been Blatant that Sidious ALLOWED the fight to continue as long as he wanted to.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
That's essentially what Palpatine did; he pinned them against the wall, laughed, then let them draw their weapons and try to fight him.

So I guess Maul LET Kenobi get back up ignite his Lightsabers and chop off Opress's arms.

I guess when Opress ragdolled Skywalker and Kenobi smacking them against a wall in "witches of the mist" with their Sabers deignited, yet he didn't attack them again TK, or continue his TK assault, I guess he LET Kenobi and Skywalker get back up to continue the fight.

Have you actually seen any other fights in TCW and Objectively judging how fights in that particular medium work, or are you just coming up with your own assumed s*** based on what YOU THINK you found Obvious in that fight and nothing else.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
Sidious also visibly shows fear for his wellbeing on multiple occasions during his confrontation with Yoda. His face reflects such a struggle exactly once during his duel with Maul.


Since I'm not arguing the Brothers were anywhere close to the challenge Yoda was, I fail to see why you are bringing up pointless and irrelevant s***.




Originally posted by Skybreaker
You and I obviously have different definitions of "legitimate". They were using real lightsabers and using real moves; this does not suggest that Sidious was fighting against the brothers with the same level of intensity as he was fighting Mace Windu.


If Mace Windu pushed him harder than the brothers, then obviously Sidious would have been forced into a harder fight with Windu.

How exactly does that mean he didn't TRY to defeat the Brothers.

And just so you know Maul was able to engage Windu and Secura so clearly is capable of putting up a fight against Windu. Probably a similar level of fight he put up against Sidious, but without all the easy Force ragdolling.

And it was actually the Supervising Director who called the fight a "Legitimate One." Not me.

So again you're bringing up irrelevant points and ignoring any ACTUAL PROOF.


Originally posted by Skybreaker
Your curious logic tells us that Palpatine decided to go all-out against the brothers despite obviously not needing to, which suggests that he wanted to end the fight quickly, but decided not to kill them when he could have with a wrist flick at the start of the fight. It has been explained time and time again to you that this doesn't make any f*cking sense, and you've done absolutely nothing to defend it, incongruous analogies to Yoda notwithstanding.

It's been explained to me many times through half ass speculations. It has not however been proved to me.

The fact that the Supervising Director, specifically credited even Opress for the fight he put up against Sidious however, is CLEAR PROOF, that the Maul brothers DID in fact put up a fight.

And this IS PROOF which YOU'VE BEEN TOLD time and time again.

But you know, just ignore ACTUAL PROOF and stick to your own half ass speculations, pretending that your actually making some kind of real argument here.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, Palpatine had clearly demonstrated his ability to separate the two of his own volition. It kind of works that way when the disparity in Force power is sufficient to ragdoll the others at your whim.

And he did just that when he got the chance, or was in need to.

When being booted off the balcony he used his Force powers to bring the Brothers down with him.

When being cornered by the Brothers, he KO's Maul with TK.

Your ability to bring up points that actually support my argument and not yours, is frankly Outstanding.



Originally posted by Skybreaker
So Palpatine went all-out in sabers but not in the actual holistic sum of his abilities? Do you realize how absurdly self-contradicting this is?


What he didn't use his other abilities on the Brothers? He didn't KO Maul with TK, or throw the Brothers off the Balcony.

No what I'm saying is that JUST BECAUSE he didn't press an advantage he had with his Tk at the beginning, does not mean he did not TRY the whole rest of the Damn Fight.

And any Objective analogy of other fights in the same medium or of the way we've seen Sidious act cocky and fight in the past would show that.

But let's just forget any Objectivity and Proof from the Supervising Director here in favor of the Way YOU SEE THE FIGHT.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well disarming someone of their Lightsaber, then giving them back would make a Lightsaber fight kind of pointless don't you think? And kind of outright prove there's no need for a Saber fight.


Sidious's force domination over the bros at the beginning would also prove that there's no need for a lightsaber fight. Yoda giving Ventress her sabers back to give her a chance to duel him, would be Yoda purposely prolonging the situation.

This is why I stopped arguing with you on the subject. Too much arguments like this, on top of admitting to using double standards.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well disarming someone of their Lightsaber, then giving them back would make a Lightsaber fight kind of pointless don't you think? And kind of outright prove there's no need for a Saber fight.

Sidious pinning the Brothers for a few moments was more akin to Dooku pinning Ventress to a wall. That didn't mean Dooku could stop Ventress from even striking her Saber and freeze her or mean Dooku could grab Ventress's Lightsabers anytime he liked did it?

Not at all.

Effortlessly disarming someone and then returning their weapons does indeed indicate superiority, but it's nowhere near as dominant as pinning and immobilizing two people, effortlessly enduring their best efforts to free themselves, and releasing them voluntarily.

What Sidious did to Maul & Savage was just a far more grandiose version of what Yoda did to Ventress.

Apart from maybe getting a little too personal with Ant, this Skybreaker guy seemed like an incredible debater.