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Okay, so this isn't a versus match in the conventional sense. I'm just curious what you guys think Tien's Kikoho(aka. Tri-Beam) is capable of. Before I lay-out the scenario(s), I'd like to premise this with a few Kikoho factoids/feats...

Even the Kamehameha is "dog piss" in comparison to the Kikoho:
http://i.imgur.com/iOJ2oQG.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Xz2Ui39.gif
...And that was according to Roshi himself.

The Kikoho's enormous power is what enabled Tien to keep Imperfect Cell at bay for an extended period of time, even though he possessed little more than a micro-fraction of Cell's power:
http://i.imgur.com/Z5NCMcY.gif
http://i.imgur.com/sgPsf5C.gif
http://i.imgur.com/o73lC5L.gif
http://i.imgur.com/CUNl8Uw.gif
http://i.imgur.com/TSzVS6J.gif

Tien also used the Kikoho to deflect a blast from Buutenks that was meant to kill Gohan:
http://i.imgur.com/8tF1pvE.gif
http://i.imgur.com/WXE7Z0l.gif

Anime scenes:
Tien vs. Imperfect Cell
Tien vs. Buutenks' blast (2:10)

With that out of the way, lets move on to the scenarios...


Scenario #1

Stipulations:
-This is Tien as he was during the Buu-era.
-Tien starts at full power against each opponent.
-For the purposes of this thread, we'll assume he fires 10 consecutive Kikoho beams at each opponent(if needed) before he is too tired to continue.
-His opponents just stand there, and can only block/guard themselves physically against his attacks.

The Opposition:
1.) Frieza(final form @ 100%)
2.) Android #17
3.) Android #16
4.) Imperfect Cell
5.) Perfect Cell
6.) Kid Buu


Scenario #2

A single Kikoho from Buu-era Tien vs...

1.) Frieza's Death Ball
2.) Kamiccolo's Special Beam Cannon
3.) ASSJ Vegeta's Final Flash
4.) SPC's Kamehameha
5.) SSJ2 Gohan's Kamehameha
6.) Kid Buu's Earth-Buster



How does one of the most powerful attacks in DBZ-lore fare..?

http://i.imgur.com/BdEMaDX.png

1. Probably kills him, if not in the first blast (I don't think Tien ever reached Freeza's power level, but Tri Beam is an attack that can punch above one's weight class).
2. It managed to prematurely detonate or redirect Buu's blast a little bit, so it might manage to kill him, though it's hard to say.
3. Probably survives, but is badly wounded.
4. Assuming you mean first form Cell, handles it about as well as 16, with all injuries being quickly healed. If you mean "semi-Perfect" Cell, then it might be able to do more damage, but it would still be healed.
5. Tanks, IMO. It depends on how powerful Buu saga's tri beam would be compared to Vegeta's Final Flash.
6. Probably doesn't give a ****.

1. Might actually redirect a small death ball, and go through a large one, though I don't know if it can stop an attack so massive.
2. Eh...
3. I think Vegeta's is probably stronger.
4 and 5. Read above.
6. Can do nothing. Goku outright admits that he can't do shit to stop Kid Buu's Planet Buster.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. Assuming you mean first form Cell, handles it about as well as 16, with all injuries being quickly healed. If you mean "semi-Perfect" Cell, then it might be able to do more damage, but it would still be healed.
Yeah, I meant "Semi-Perfect" Cell. My bad.

Anyone want to give some sort of explanation why the hax cannon didn't destroy the shit out of Earth?

It occurs to me that Tien was over a third of Nappa's power level, but his Tri Beam didn't do any more than superficial damage.

With that in mind, the only one it might be able to kill or even meaningfully wound is Freeza, and I think it can do little to nothing to any of his attacks.

Did he get a better variant of it?

Well, he wasn't nearly a third of Semi-Perfect Cell's power when he gave him the smack down.

...Same with Buutenks when he deflected that blast.


srug

Sure, but he also didn't do any damage to Semi-Perfect Cell.

As for Buutenks, eh, I'm not sure how much power is required to just redirect the momentum or explode it.

It could just be an inconsistency. That's why I don't usually advocate using power levels as a primary form of evidence for shit.

True, but the Kikoho still enabled Tien to overpower an opponent whose power massively eclipsed his own. /shrug

Yeah, I'd probably chalk it up to inconsistency, myself.

No, Tien's Kikoho maintained its vast supremacy over the kamehameha in the series even after Tien became dog piss compared to Goku, because Toriyama still wanted to keep the humans as definite factors in the series, instead of making it all about Super Saiyan's which weren't even conceived until DBZ.

Tien managed to hold Cell back for a good while. You have to keep in mind though, that this Tien wasn't strong enough to do shit to Frieza OR his dad when they showed up. This alone showcases the Tri-beams ability to STOP characters at least a thousand times stronger than the user.

Tien's feat of stopping a blast meant to kill a SSJ3++ level character was ridiculous enough, let alone the fact that this would canonically make him scalably strong enough to probably kill SP Cell with a single shot, tbh.

Either way though, the Kikoho is meant to be go through a small region, and wipe out everything inside it's AOE, not make a massive explosion and detonate galaxies and shit like Buu's or someone else's attacks were. That's not uncommon in the series, but it does apparently make a marginal difference when stacked in accordance to the fact that it uses life energy, and not ki.

Also against Nappa. Vegeta states that it would have worked had Nappa not blocked it a split second before it hit.

also tien only had one arm. I don't all the legistics of those attacks but technique seems really important to tien's specifically.

Great point

Tien did not get 1-shotted by the Cell-Juniors which means he is vastly more powerful than Frieza. The Cell Jrs are suppose to have roughly the same power and speed as Perfect Cell. The very fact that he can survive a single hit from one of them without being atomized is proof that Tien is near enough to Perfect Cell to at least survive being killed from a single hit. Compare this to how close in power he was to Nappa and a single hit from Nappa took his arm off.

Edit - I'm saying the Tien, at the Cell Games, is significantly stronger than full power Frieza. Being a tenth or a twentieth the power of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, etc. does not mean he is stupid weak: it just means those other fighters got so much stronger that he just looks weak compared to them.

tie> frieza?
yeaaaaaaaaaah, no.

I provided evidence to support this position. Just posting a smartass "no" answer is worthless.




You'll quickly be relegated to "dumbass" if you post stuff like that. Support your positions.

base form goku is less than frieza. And while tien is the only human who would reasonably get that strong, yamcha and krillin took punches from those guys as well without exploding.

Tien being vastly more powerful than Freeza would mean he is vastly more powerful than base Goku.

That is something I find hard to stomach, to be honest.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Tien being vastly more powerful than Freeza would mean he is vastly more powerful than base Goku.

That is something I find hard to stomach, to be honest.

I don't. Around this (Cell Games) time, Goku focused on being able to hold the SSJ state, not necessarily increase his base power. Remember that one of the androids grabbed Tien and choked him out...these are the same androids that were putting the stomp on SSJs, too. Also, if Tien was too weak to face the Androids, Trunks would have told Tien that he doesn't stand a chance. It just so happens that the androids are much more powerful than in Trunk's timeline. The general picture I am painting is that Tien was approaching SSJ power levels when the androids first showed up. Enough that he was seen as an asset.

At least in the anime, Goku did not focus on powering up his base form until after Cell Games ended.


IMO, based on how Vegeta got to SSJ, when Androids 19 and 20 showed up, Vegeta had a stronger base than Goku (even if we discount the virus). Vegeta seemed to train to maximize his base power and as long as the multiplier is still the same, that would make Vegeta significantly stronger than Goku: at least in theory.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
base form goku is less than frieza. And while tien is the only human who would reasonably get that strong, yamcha and krillin took punches from those guys as well without exploding.

You're supposed to be supporting your position, not providing additional examples that support mine (or tangenital examples for why Krillin, who is already known to be the strongest human on earth, is considered strong).

Its true. Android 20 seemed pretty scared of Tien and the others from my memory. My guess is he would be a Nappa to Vegeta distance from Piccolo at that point.

In all fairness, Yamcha and Krillin took just as much of a beating from the Cell Juniors as Tien did, and I don't think I'd put them on par with Frieza. It's possible, I suppose, but I just don't see how they could have reached such a high level, given that they didn't really train much. At least Tien being around Frieza's level(esp. by the Buu saga) makes a little sense, considering his nomadic lifestyle revolved around training and whatnot... But that's neither here nor there. All that matters in this thread is what that haxx-beam is capable of.

...Though I really do wish Akira would've kept the humans more relevant than he did.

What if a Super Saiyan 3 used the Neo Tri-Beam using ALL their life energy so that it would kill them? Would we consider that the strongest attack to date?

Yeah, probably so.

Also, imagine if Cell would've used Tri-Beam instead of Kamehameha. Gohan would've been phucked.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, probably so.

Also, imagine if Cell would've used Tri-Beam instead of Kamehameha. Gohan would've been phucked.

Yeah, no kidding. That would probably contend with attacks from Super Vegetto and Bills. However, if Goku in SSJG or Bills or someone could learn it, that would be the strongest.

You know, I've always wondered why Cell didn't use more of his techniques. He knew all the techniques of all the Z-fighters, yet he didn't use Kaioken, Spirit bomb, Tri-beam(when it counted), or even Great ape, which it was inferred he should be capable of. That would also be sweet, but a bit too OP Tbh.

Kaioken we can only assume Cell didn't use for the same reason Goku stopped using it after reaching super saiyan; the energy drain taking its toll on the user, which may explain why Goku only used Kaioken as a super saiyan against Pikkon (even though it was only filler), since being dead gives one's body more stamina than being alive, as SSJ3 proved. Still would've been cool to see Cell use against Gohan though, even though it would've been random and out of nowhere compared to his other techniques.

Although he had the capability to use it, I guess Cell figured the Spirit Bomb would've been no good for him with the amount of time it takes to create one and since he himself is evil, it could be used against him (unlike someone whose good/pure of heart) by being bounced back at him like Gohan did to Vegeta with a smaller SB in the Saiyan saga. Plus who would willingly give their energy to Cell for him to create a bigger bomb?

But yeah, him never using Tri-beam when it counted was a bit too convenient.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, no kidding. That would probably contend with attacks from Super Vegetto and Bills. However, if Goku in SSJG or Bills or someone could learn it, that would be the strongest.

You know, I've always wondered why Cell didn't use more of his techniques. He knew all the techniques of all the Z-fighters, yet he didn't use Kaioken, Spirit bomb, Tri-beam(when it counted), or even Great ape, which it was inferred he should be capable of. That would also be sweet, but a bit too OP Tbh. I'll tell you why Cell never used Oozaru(assuming he was even capable of such): because it would have likely made him the most powerful baddie in Z by a large margin(not factoring in BoG.)

Had SPC, for example, transformed into an Oozaru, it would have essentially made him 100x> SSJ2 Gohan... Which, speaking conservatively, would still make him upwards of 90x> SSJ3 Goku--and I, for one, don't even think the difference between Buuhan(the most powerful baddie in Z, by far) and SSJ3 Goku was nearly that vast. Remember, this was an era in which a 'mere' 2x difference in power was completely insurmountable *see SSJ2 Gohan's battle with Perfect Cell*
ie. This theoretical Oozaru-SPC>>Buuhan>>>>>everyone else up to the Buu-saga(sans Vegito, of course.) Imo.

100x?

I don't even think he could turn into an Oozaru without a Saiyan tail. Him having the ability in his DNA amounts to every other Saiyan with this trait, which means nothing without that tail to trigger things.


As for the TriBeam.. going off memory, besides his first demonstration of the KMHMA it, wasn't each usage going along with the threat of destroying the planet? TriBeam might be an incredibly damaging technique, but its AOE is quite low for a ki blast.

Edit: Scratch that. I don't believe he had Tien's cells in the manga.

Originally posted by BloodRain
100x?

I don't even think he could turn into an Oozaru without a Saiyan tail. Him having the ability in his DNA amounts to every other Saiyan with this trait, which means nothing without that tail to trigger things. A 100x boost was the Oozaru multiplier.

Yeah, I don't think he could have transformed into an Ape, either. Just running with SSJGGogeta's speculation, because it's a fun concept to ponder.

I think its a 10x multiplier.

100 sounds bizarre to me, wouldn't that mean Oozaru > Super Saiyans? haermm

Oozaru Multiplier is 10X Silly people.

Originally posted by Galan007
A 100x boost was the Oozaru multiplier.

Yeah, I don't think he could have transformed into an Ape, either. Just running with SSJGGogeta's speculation, because it's a fun concept to ponder. If 100x was the Oozaru multiplier then Vegeta would be stronger than second form Freeza using it, lol.

You guys are right, it's 10x. Dunno why the f*ck I was thinking 100x, lol.

Still, though: Oozaru-SPC would be more than 2x> SSJ3 Goku. Cray Cray.

Oh yeah, didn't comment on the Oozaru Cell thing earlier because I didn't know what to make of it.. Like how would that work even if he had the capability? Would he turn into some giant green ape with his stinger tail instead of a monkey tail along with the grasshopper-like wings and such, or would he become some giant bug sort of thing like Hirudegarn?

It's hard and weird trying to picture that shit.

http://i.imgur.com/E5gTFRx.png

He doesn't have a tail, but other than that, I guess it'd be possible.

That's actually a turd, not a tail. That is to say: he's taking an ape-sized shit in that pic.

Originally posted by Galan007
A 100x boost was the Oozaru multiplier.

Yeah, I don't think he could have transformed into an Ape, either. Just running with SSJGGogeta's speculation, because it's a fun concept to ponder.

Yeah, just got back, and saw everyone already corrected you on this, so I don't have to mention that it IS a ten times multiplier though. However, with that, stacked onto Kaioken, Cell would be 200X stronger than Gohan, at the most, and 20X at the least, going from Kaioken 2X to 20X. The 20X boost would make him marginally stronger than most Buu saga characters, and put him at least on par with Super Buu, or maybe Buutenks. The 200X boost would make him a match for Super Vegetto, and possibly even superior to him. It does stand to reason that Toriyama didn't want Cell being way too massively OP, but if that's true, I don't see why he would induce so much PIS, instead of just making a weaker villain, lol.

I don't think it's that difficult to assume he could. Honestly, I don't see why he couldn't considering other Saiyan's can. It was stated by him that he got a zenkai boost, so he's obviously genetically comparable to Saiyan's at least. Imo, it's not that much of a stretch to think he could absorb blutz waves through his stinger, or maybe just his nucleus on the top of his head. I just think that since he can use so many other Saiyan abilities, he would be able to go great ape as well.


Originally posted by Damborgson
He doesn't have a tail, but other than that, I guess it'd be possible.

I remember them calling his stinger a tail multiple times.