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This fight could easily go either way, but i'm going to side with Jaina.

I'm siding with Zannah.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The extremely powerful Dark Lady Of The Sith

http://i58.beon.ru/8/12/2361208/91/103674391/tumblr_m4y9g5EZFz1rolf0zo1_500.gif

I hate to be that guy but Darth Bane isn't the only person to survive Zannahs spells. Set Harth also survived a watered down version of Zannahs spells of madness after he spent three days in a coma

Zannah.

Jaina is hotter tho.

Jaina. She is more skilled and powerful.

"Jaina lept over an incoming leg slash, then dropped her attacker with a quick snap-kick to the temple. She blocked a strike at her neck, and, still in air, turned her jump into a cartwheel. She shifted to a one-handed grip and swung her free arm in an arc, using the Force to sweep two more Sith off their feet."
-Page 115 of FOTJ: Apocalypse

"Perhaps they feared Luke Skywalker just that much.
And that was a mistake.
Luke Skywalker was not the Sword of the Jedi. Jaina was, and now the Sith had trapped themselves inside a locked temple with her."
-Page 116 of FOTJ: Apocalypse

"...from killing two Sith in three seconds..."
-Page 166 of FOTJ: Apocalypse

"On most days, that would have been an easy job for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order."
-Page 325 of FOTJ: Apocalypse

How does Jaina get through Zannah's defenses, when even Bane had to rely on the environment instead of his own saber abilities?

You act like her defenses are god-like... while in reality they were broken through in over 50% of her duels. Even Kenobi has a better track record.

You didn't answer my question.

Sure Jaina is a better swordsman than say, Revan, but still inadequate here.

Jaina.

She does actually, but I'm not discussing that. A greater command of the Force leads to superior Force-augmentation, leading to the powers I listed above.
Who has the greater command of the Force is 60% of the equation here, and we should focus on it before we go into subjects dictated outside of augmentation.

No, since as I've established it doesn't actually matter. Jaina has no way to get through Zannah's defensive form, at least not quickly enough to prevent Zannah from charging up her Mind Cannon.

Zannah unleashed an attack that sent Bane flying against a wall and then continued on to launch a by standard several meters and turn that person into an unrecognizable mangled mess. How exactly is Jaina more powerful than Zannah?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, since as I've established it doesn't actually matter. Jaina has no way to get through Zannah's defensive form, at least not quickly enough to prevent Zannah from charging up her Mind Cannon.
So... Speed, Strength, Jump, Agility, Endurance, Stamina, Sense, and Vision don't matter yet canonically dictate Zannah's defense success? Mmk.

Because Jaina has done the same thing to Caedus, and he wasn't caught by surprise.

I think Zannah has more mastery of the force than Jaina does. Jaina has the dueling advantage.

That being said, I do think that Jaina has more raw force power than Zannah, which is what will surprise Zannah during their fight for enough time for Jaina to get the win.

Jaina

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because Jaina has done the same thing to Caedus, and he wasn't caught by surprise.
They never read the books, I'm assuming.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She doesn't have the advantage in any of those area's by feats. Obviously she isn't more powerful either. And you didn't explain how those factor's would lead to her victory. According to you, Bane also had all of those advantages over Zannah. Yet he couldn't get through her defense through conventional swordsplay.

What are you talking about?

Jaina has tanked Force Lightning, TK Pushes from Caedus into walls, massive attacks with Vong etc.

I guess you missed all the quotes about her being like Lightning, Killing 4 vong with one stroke, 3 sith Sabers in the heart of a Dark Side Nexus....

Etc.

Fwi, Jaina supporters vote in poll. Jaina is winning in comments yet no one is voting in the poll lol.
Originally posted by Selenial
What are you talking about?

Jaina has tanked Force Lightning, TK Pushes from Caedus into walls, massive attacks with Vong etc.

I guess you missed all the quotes about her being like Lightning, Killing 4 vong with one stroke, 3 sith Sabers in the heart of a Dark Side Nexus....

Etc.

Jaina is my favorite female Star Wars character.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So... Speed, Strength, Jump, Agility, Endurance, Stamina, Sense, and Vision don't matter yet canonically dictate Zannah's defense success? Mmk.

In your estimation is Bane faster, stronger and more powerful than Zannah?

Is Jaina equal to or lesser than Bane in these area's?

If the answers to both those questions is yes, then they don't enable Jaina to win here, no.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I think Zannah has more mastery of the force than Jaina does. Jaina has the dueling advantage.

That being said, I do think that Jaina has more raw force power than Zannah, which is what will surprise Zannah during their fight for enough time for Jaina to get the win.

This.

And Jaina's lightning is pretty BAMFY. Jedi typically have worse Lightning since they don't tap into rage or emotions, but Jaina's lightning was Onyx and so naturally powerful that her own mother assumed she must have fallen to the Dark Side (Instead of Caedus)...

Bane's lightning is vastly superior to Jaina's.

Originally posted by Selenial
What are you talking about?

Jaina has tanked Force Lightning, TK Pushes from Caedus into walls, massive attacks with Vong etc.

I guess you missed all the quotes about her being like Lightning, Killing 4 vong with one stroke, 3 sith Sabers in the heart of a Dark Side Nexus....

Etc.

And?

Originally posted by Nephthys
In your estimation is Bane faster, stronger and more powerful than Zannah?

Is Jaina equal to or lesser than Bane in these area's?

If the answers to both those questions is yes, then they don't enable Jaina to win here, no.

You don't care about this argument, you're using this to make Ant say that Bane>Zannah...

Originally posted by Nephthys
And?

And Zannah is a pleb in comparison.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In your estimation is Bane faster, stronger and more powerful than Zannah?

Is Jaina equal to or lesser than Bane in these area's?

If the answers to both those questions is yes, then they don't enable Jaina to win here, no.
Yes.

Lesser.

Your missing the point because you don't understand how to properly debate. Please return with knowledge on how to.
You must compare their command of the Force (Selenial and NewGuy01 has supplied evidence in favor of Jaina's mastery).

Originally posted by Selenial
You don't care about this argument, you're using this to make Ant say that Bane>Zannah...
I always said that Bane>>>Zannah. Neph wants me to say Bane=Zannah but that's stupid.

And Zannah brought Darth Bane to his knees and damn near killed him. That> anything Jaina has done

--except killing Caedus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes.

Lesser.

Your missing the point because you don't understand how to properly debate. You must compare their command of the Force (Selenial and NewGuy01 has supplied evidence in favor of Jaina's mastery).

Why do I need to? You just established that Bane's command of the Force is superior to Zannah and Jaina's yet he wasn't able to get through Zannah's lightsaber defense. So how exactly will Jaina's command of the Force beat Zannah when Bane's didn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why do I need to? You just established that Bane's command of the Force is superior to Zannah and Jaina's yet he wasn't able to get through Zannah's lightsaber defense. So how exactly will Jaina's command of the Force beat Zannah when Bane's didn't?
Except Bane got through/was going to get through Zannah's lightsaber defense in every duel they ever had.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
--except killing Caedus. Caedus was wounded

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Caedus was wounded
And distracted, and could've still taken her out as well.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Caedus was wounded
Yeah... from his previous duel with Jaina.
I recommend getting the book, it's a good read.

Originally posted by Selenial
And Zannah is a pleb in comparison.

In comparison to surviving attacks, hyperbolic statements and killing some Sith and Vong?

Truly, what a wonder.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In comparison to surviving attacks, hyperbolic statements and killing some Sith and Vong?

Truly, what a wonder.
/extreme_double_standards_intensifies

So overall force mastery does matter in melee combat.

Originally posted by Sinious
So overall force mastery does matter in a melee combat.
It matters immensely, yes. Thanks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except Bane got through/was going to get through Zannah's lightsaber defense in every duel they ever had.

The first one when she was an apprentice and nowhere near her prime, and the second time he couldn't do so through his own abilities and needed to rely on the environment. You are arguing that Jaina can win based solely on her abilities. She can't.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah... from his previous duel with Jaina.
I recommend getting the book, it's a good read. and she was being aided by luke in that fight

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It matters immensely, yes. Thanks.

Which surprises me cause almost no one here(not accusing you) applies that logic to a certain TOR character who will remain nameless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The first one when she was an apprentice and nowhere near her prime, and the second time he couldn't do so through his own abilities and needed to rely on the environment. You are arguing that Jaina can win based solely on her abilities. She can't.
Dude...
Dudee...
Dudeee...
Dudeeee...
What the ****?
Bane was trashing her.
"Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition. Now, however, his technique was more advanced. Unable to simply bully his way heedlessly forward, he had developed an unpredictable, seemingly random style. Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground. She was being driven back in a slow retreat, and she realized he was herding her toward the shuttles, hoping to pin her against the metal hull with no place to go."

Being riven back but he wasn't penetrating her defenses. And Bane was also familier with her style completely where as Bane had hid his true talent from her

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I always said that Bane>>>Zannah. Neph wants me to say Bane=Zannah but that's stupid.

Yeh I meant Zannah > Bane

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dude...
Dudee...
Dudeee...
Dudeeee...
What the ****?
Bane was trashing her.
"Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition. Now, however, his technique was more advanced. Unable to simply bully his way heedlessly forward, he had developed an unpredictable, seemingly random style. Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground. She was being driven back in a slow retreat, and she realized he was herding her toward the shuttles, hoping to pin her against the metal hull with no place to go."

How the flying fvck is that "trashing" her? She was slowly retreating, which is something pretty much every defensive fighter does to maintain optimal distance. It doesn't establish jack shit. He couldn't get through her defense. End of.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And distracted, and could've still taken her out as well.

Yeh by all means let's compare Caedus and Bane, the man who is likely the 2nd most powerful Sith Combatant in the mythos, and... Bane.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yeh by all means let's compare Caedus and Bane, the man who is likely the 2nd most powerful Sith Combatant in the mythos, and... Bane.

Caedus vs Bane would be a pretty close fight pumpkin. Deny it all you want.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yeh by all means let's compare Caedus and Bane, the man who is likely the 2nd most powerful Sith Combatant in the mythos, and... Caedus.

Fixed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How the flying fvck is that "trashing" her? She was slowly retreating, which is something pretty much every defensive fighter does to maintain optimal distance. It doesn't establish jack shit. He couldn't get through her defense. End of.
Retreating and giving up tactical ground are two completely different things.
Retreat: withdraw from enemy forces as a result of their superior power or after a defeat.
According to you, the only way to beat Zannah is to get through her defense, implying Bane would have eventually got through her defense.
/double_standards_logic_attacked

Originally posted by Sinious
Caedus vs Bane would be a pretty close fight pumpkin. Deny it all you want.

I have lost all faith in humanity.

Originally posted by Selenial
I have lost all faith in humanity.
I lost faith when people said being beaten by Bane is more impressive then beating Caedus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Retreating and giving up tactical ground are two completely different things.
Retreat: withdraw from enemy forces as a result of their superior power or after a defeat.
According to you, the only way to beat Zannah is to get through her defense, implying Bane would have eventually got through her defense.
/double_standards_logic_attacked

And Zannah was doing the latter, love:

"Bane circled wide trying to come in on her left flank. Zannah simply altered the angle of her retreat, taking several more steps backward to keep him at a safe distance as she swatted away a few token slashes and strikes."

While only dealing with some token attacks Zannah takes a few steps back to "keep him at a safe distance". You're just playing semantics.

Bane was driving her back and she admitted that if he got her back against a wall she would have lost. But Bane couldn't penetrate her defenses without backing her into something. If she had all the space in the world to keep retreating, Bane wouldn't have beaten her in sabers

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Bane was driving her back and she admitted that if he got her back against a wall she would have lost. But Bane couldn't penetrate her defenses without backing her into something. If she had all the space in the world to keep retreating, Bane wouldn't have beaten her in sabers

Jaina is a better Duelist than Bane.

He has arrived....

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I lost faith when people said being beaten by Bane is more impressive then beating Caedus.

Jaina had every advantage available and Caedus still could have killed her if he'd wanted to. And last I checked Zannah beat Bane.

Originally posted by Selenial
I have lost all faith in humanity.

You should've done that a long time ago.

Personally, I place Caedus higher than Bane but saying that it wouldn't be a close fight is kinda stupid, don't you think?

Originally posted by Selenial
Jaina is a better Duelist than Bane.

Is it because she's like lightning? Bane has hyperbolic statements comparing him to forces of nature too you know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Zannah was doing the latter, love:

"Bane circled wide trying to come in on her left flank. Zannah simply altered the angle of her retreat, taking several more steps backward to keep him at a safe distance as she swatted away a few token slashes and strikes."

While only dealing with some token attacks Zannah takes a few steps back to "keep him at a safe distance"
That was until she released what Bane was doing. Until such realization, she was being driven into a retreat. Then right after that, Zannah fell on a grave and Bane beat the shit out of her.
Suggesting Zannah would have won without tendrils when previously being beaten in lightsabers and was already injured is... impossible. I don't see how Bane's superiority can even be denied here.

Originally posted by Selenial
He has arrived....

Who? Me?

Holy ****, this thread got attention pretty quickly. Also a reminder to supporters of both characters, Vote on the poll please. Good luck to both sides.

Changing my vote to Zannah. It goes against all my moral codes to agree with SWTOR forum members (Aurbere AND Seleniel) on the victory.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is it because she's like lightning? Bane has hyperbolic statements comparing him to forces of nature too you know.

Right yeh, because that's her only feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Changing my vote to Zannah. It goes against all my moral codes to agree with a SWTOR forum member (Aurbere) on the victory.

Do I not count? >.>

Was I ostracized? I didnt get the memo.

Originally posted by Selenial
Do I not count? >.>
Fixed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Changing my vote to Zannah. It goes against all my moral codes to agree with a SWTOR forum member (Aurbere) on the victory.

I also think Revan beats Zannah. Gonna change your mind on that one too?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
AND Seleniel)
Ok that's better.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Who? Me?
http://replygif.net/i/651.gif

Originally posted by Aurbere
I also think Revan beats Zannah. Gonna change your mind on that one too?

Get a profile pic you look so boring...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://replygif.net/i/651.gif

Are you still Butthurt over that whole "This Respect thread is shit" thing?

If so, we never use respect threads so don't take it personally.

Originally posted by Selenial
Get a profile pic you look so boring...

Originally posted by Aurbere
I also think Revan beats Zannah. Gonna change your mind on that one too?

Careful, you're going to shatter his psyche.

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Glee1.gif

Originally posted by Selenial
Are you still Butthurt over that whole "This Respect thread is shit" thing?

If so, we never use respect threads so don't take it personally.
Maybe.

I can tell.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Careful, you're going to shatter his psyche.

He'd like that, though. He'd be just like Revan then.

Originally posted by Aurbere
He'd like that, though. He'd be just like Revan then.
And you will be like Fay. Come at me, bro.
http://www.loresdelsith.net/biblioteca/comics/bin/victo09.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That was until she released what Bane was doing. Until such realization, she was being driven into a retreat. Then right after that, Zannah fell on a grave and Bane beat the shit out of her.
Suggesting Zannah would have won without tendrils when previously being beaten in lightsabers and was already injured is... impossible. I don't see how Bane's superiority can even be denied here.

Wait, what? What are you even saying? That doesn't contradict my point, which is that Zannah was giving ground for defensive reasons, not because he was beating her defense.

Bane wasn't overpowering her defense, he was simply disrupting the battle and causing her to give ground. Her totally wasn't threatening her at all. Remember that before he tried that tactic this happened:

"The next exchange had a more familiar feel. Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable."

Bane goes in hard and Zannah is able to block everything without issue. He was only making her retreat by being really annoying and making tons of feints and being unpredictable.

And no, without the tentacles she probably would have lost after getting injured. Before getting injured though she was seconds from victory:

"She had to give him the illusion he was controlling the action, when in fact she was only a few seconds away from unleashing a burst of dark side sorcery that would rip his mind apart."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait, what? What are you even saying? That doesn't contradict my point, which is that Zannah was giving ground for defensiev reasons, not because he was beating her defense.

Bane wasn't overpowering her defense, he was simply disrupting the battle and causing her to give ground. Her totally wasn't threatening her at all. Remember that before he tried that tactic this happened:

"The next exchange had a more familiar feel. Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable."

Bane goes in hard and Zannah is able to block everything without issue. He was only making her retreat by being really annoying and making tons of feints and being unpredictable.

And no, without the tentacles she probably would have lost after getting injured. Before getting injured though she was seconds from victory:

"She had to give him the illusion he was controlling the action, when in fact she was only a few seconds away from unleashing a burst of dark side sorcery that would rip his mind apart."
It took you like 10 minutes to copy and paste something from our Revan vs Zannah debate to this Zannah vs Jaina debate? Really?

Jaina is winning the poll currently, despite no-one giving an actual way for her to win. She cannot get through Zannah's lightsaber defense, she cannot overpower Zannah with the Force, she cannot survive Zannah's mental attack. How does Jaina beat Zannah beyond a simplistic "lawl she's better"?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And you will be like Fay. Come at me, bro.

You sure?

Join me Aurbere. Together we can strike Ant down.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It took you like 10 minutes to copy and paste something from our Revan vs Zannah debate to this Zannah vs Jaina debate? Really?

I'm watching a Let's Play atm. It only took me 5 minutes after I actually saw your post.

Also, nice argument.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jaina is winning the poll currently, despite no-one giving an actual way for her to win. She cannot get through Zannah's lightsaber defense, she cannot overpower Zannah with the Force, she cannot survive Zannah's mental attack. How does Jaina beat Zannah beyond a simplistic "lawl she's better"?

Because of this pic:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/61870/3184981-sword_of_the_jedi_by_svenjaliv-d4nzlpn.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm watching a Let's Play atm. It only took me 5 minutes after I actually saw your post.

Also, nice argument.
Well like, I can copy and paste my response from that thread onto this thread but I don't see the point. In the end it always comes down to your lack of reading abilities anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Join me Aurbere. Together we can strike Ant down.

But that would end up putting me against Sel.

Do it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well like, I can copy and paste my response from that thread onto this thread but I don't see the point. In the end it always comes down to your lack of reading abilities anyway.

I'd rather you just write an actual response to my post. Bane wasn't trashing Zannah. That he was making her retreat doesn't mean anything. Obi-Wan retreated from Maul in the Adi Gallia fight too, was Maul trashing him as well?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd rather you just write an actual response to my post. Bane wasn't trashing Zannah. That he was making her retreat doesn't mean anything. Obi-Wan retreated from Maul in the Adi Gallia fight too, was Maul trashing him as well?

I'm going to have to agree with this (even if it is off-topic). Zannah is a defensive fighter, retreating is just what she does. It means nothing, really.

Originally posted by Aurbere
But that would end up putting me against Sel.

I'd enjoy the challenge

The Holy Spirit has guided me to apologize to Aurbere for my meanness.
Sorry for any angry or pain I inflicted upon you. Same goes for Selenial.
Apologies from me are rare. Savior the moment.

Savior the moment?

Ant keeps confusing words these days.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Savior the moment?
Pun intended. https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1207702065/jesus2_normal.jpg

Originally posted by Selenial
I'd enjoy the challenge

Yeah, but it would have to be a different topic with characters I know better. It's been ages since I read anything about Zannah, and I only recently started re-reading post-Vong stuff.

On a side-note, is there a Zannah respect thread? Last I looked there wasn't one.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Holy Spirit has guided me to apologize to Aurbere for my meanness.
Sorry for any angry or pain I inflicted upon you. Same goes for Selenial.
Apologies from me are rare. Savior the moment.

I screenshot everytiem.

Did a mod make you say this? ._.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Yeah, but it would have to be a different topic with characters I know better. It's been ages since I read anything about Zannah, and I only recently started re-reading post-Vong stuff.

On a side-note, is there a Zannah respect thread? Last I looked there wasn't one.

That's because no one in their right mind respects Zannah...

Neph

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Holy Spirit has guided me to apologize to Aurbere for my meanness.
Sorry for any angry or pain I inflicted upon you. Same goes for Selenial.
Apologies from me are rare. Savior the moment.

Well, thanks. Apology accepted.

Originally posted by Selenial
I screenshot everytiem.

Did a mod make you say this? ._.
No, I'm striving to become a better person. I apologize for the sadness.
Temptation has once again distracted me from my goal on entering the Kingdom of God.

Debating without insulting is extremely difficult. Props to Q99.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, I'm striving to become a better person. I apologize for the sadness.
Temptation has once again distracted me from my goal on entering the Kingdom of God.

/thumbs up

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Debating without insulting is extremely difficult. Props to Q99.
I remember when we got ridiculed for saying Bane and Revan>Ventress

Originally posted by Aurbere
/thumbs up
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ndCqvg955Mw/Une5f5DTgcI/AAAAAAAAAVI/miOUB313Lrw/s1600/tumblr_llp7do1ibU1qec01jo1_500.jpg

Anyway, back on topic....... Zannah still wins. I'm looking at Jaina's respect thread now and there's nothing here that'll challenge Zannah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, back on topic....... Zannah still wins. I'm looking at Jaina's respect thread now and there's nothing here that'll challenge Zannah.

Besides being more experienced, a better duelist, and all around more awesome?

Or Sorcery FTW?

Originally posted by Aurbere
Besides being more experienced, a better duelist, and all around more awesome?

Or Sorcery FTW?

Yep. Experience and dueling skill can't get through Zannah's almost impenetrable defense. Zannah's also more powerful and faster than Jaina.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yep. Experience and dueling skill can't get through Zannah's almost impenetrable defense. Zannah's also more powerful and faster than Jaina.

Eh, I'm just going off of memory here.

What's Zannah's best speed feat, though?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Changing my vote to Zannah. It goes against all my moral codes to agree with SWTOR forum members (Aurbere AND Seleniel) on the victory.

Ant you ****ing around again or are you serious? I need to know other-wise i'm pretty much in the dark(being molded by it etc etc)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah... faster than Jaina.

I'm just curious, what makes you say that?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

"On most days, that would have been an easy job for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order."
-Page 325 of FOTJ: Apocalypse

I'm assuming that doesn't include Luke. Does it? I don't have the book.

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm just curious, what makes you say that?

Fan Hard-ons?

Originally posted by Aurbere
Eh, I'm just going off of memory here.

What's Zannah's best speed feat, though?

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm just curious, what makes you say that?

As an apprentice she was able to somewhat keep up with Bane despite him moving fast enough to appear to wield a dozen lightsabers at once and defend against that for a short time. Later on she fought Bane again and could easily keep up with him in speed despite him being even faster at that point. Jaina however was only a little faster than Alema, who wasn't even half as fast as Bane (judging from a similar feat of hers).

She's also casually dodged force lightning and then was able to visually track another bolt as it passed her, see it's intended target (a bomb) and jump out of the danger zone before it struck. By contrast in one feat Jaina barely evades lightning, her robes smoking from how close it was.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ant you ****ing around again or are you serious? I need to know other-wise i'm pretty much in the dark(being molded by it etc etc)
I was until the Holy Spirit let me know that was stupid of me. My vote stays with Jaina.
Originally posted by Aurbere
I'm assuming that doesn't include Luke. Does it? I don't have the book.
Luke was exiled from the Order at the time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke was exiled from the Order at the time.

That's right, he was exiled in Outcast.

Originally posted by Aurbere
That's right, he was exiled in Outcast.
Yep! You should get Fate of the Jedi though.
Most fans hated the series... but it was personally my favorite.
I read the series in about 2 days. I couldn't put it down!
In such days, I created my first "respect threads":
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t585075.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t585076.html

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jaina had every advantage available and Caedus still could have killed her if he'd wanted to.

Mutually killed, wasn't it?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Yep. Experience and dueling skill can't get through Zannah's almost impenetrable defense. Zannah's also more powerful and faster than Jaina.

It can, it just takes awhile.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yep! You should get Fate of the Jedi though.
Most fans hated the series... but it was personally my favorite.
I read the series in about 2 days. I couldn't put it down!
In such days, I created my first "respect threads"

I have Outcast (because Plo Koon and the Sages are in it), but I never got around to reading the rest of the series. I'll see if I can get my hands on the rest of it.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Besides being more experienced, a better duelist, and all around more awesome?

Or Sorcery FTW?

Originally posted by Aurbere
I have Outcast (because Plo Koon and the Sages are in it), but I never got around to reading the rest of the series. I'll see if I can get my hands on the rest of it.
Outcast was rather dull compared to the rest, IMO. My favorites were Abyss and Vortex.

Originally posted by Q99
Mutually killed, wasn't it?




It can, it just takes awhile.

Dunno, I checked out of that shitty series half-way.

Meh, can it really? I doubt it. And definitely not before Zannah charges up her sorcery to a level far beyond what Jaina can take. Assuming she can't just mind-pwn her off the bat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Outcast was rather dull compared to the rest, IMO. My favorites were Abyss and Vortex.

Yeah, it was pretty slow. I'll check out the rest of the series, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, can it really? I doubt it. And definitely not before Zannah charges up her sorcery to a level far beyond what Jaina can take. Assuming she can't just mind-pwn her off the bat.
Your overconfidence is your weakness, Nephthys.

Your faith in Revan is yours.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your overconfidence is your weakness, Nephthys.

I'm not that overconfident, Jaina is still in the lead thanks to general ignorance and bias. Though I think I'm handily winning the debate portion of the thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Meh, can it really? I doubt it.

Jaina's almost certainly got more mobility than Bane/ is more acrobatic, allowing her to press forward faster. And her mando training means she's a trickier fighter, meaning she's likely to sneak through at some point. She doesn't have to be out-and-out better than Bane to have better ways to pierce defenses.




I really doubt Zannah can do so off the bat. And what about Jaina doing force offense? Her Skywalker-Solo strength in the force should help a lot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dunno, I checked out of that shitty series half-way.

It was.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not that overconfident, Jaina is still in the lead thanks to general ignorance and bias. Though I think I'm handily winning the debate portion of the thread.
Not really. You just continue to repeat what you say on every Zannah topic that her defense is unstoppable while every fight besides Set Harth shows differently. And while you can argue they were all circumstantial, the statistics are statistics. Zannah has a very poor track record of defending herself, even despite the hype. Knowing Jaina's expertise, Solo will continue such record.

What black-vodoo-magic-looking-sorcery did you use on this thread to get so many replies?

Originally posted by Q99
Jaina's almost certainly got more mobility than Bane/ is more acrobatic, allowing her to press forward faster. And her mando training means she's a trickier fighter, meaning she's likely to sneak through at some point. She doesn't have to be out-and-out better than Bane to have better ways to pierce defenses.

She's also slower and weaker than Bane, and less powerful in general. So I doubt she could press forward faster, no. And all that would do is push Zannah back, so unless theres a similar environmental trick she can pull it's not going to accomplish much. AND Jaina is less physically powerful than Bane, so she can't wound Zannah in a similar manner if Zannah does fall over or become exposed.

I don't see what her Mando training really gave her to be honest. No really viable "tricks". And you can't really sneak through someones lightsaber defense either.

Originally posted by Q99
I really doubt Zannah can do so off the bat. And what about Jaina doing force offense? Her Skywalker-Solo strength in the force should help a lot.

Maybe, Jaina hasn't got that great mental feats imo. Nor does she have much force offense beyond average-level lightning and throwing large rocks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really. You just continue to repeat what you say on every Zannah topic that her defense is unstoppable while every fight besides Set Harth shows differently. And while you can argue they were all circumstantial, the statistics are statistics. Zannah has a very poor track record of defending herself, even despite the hype. Knowing Jaina's expertise, Solo will continue such record.

Statistics aren't everything. Statistically speaking, Sidious has lost most of his lightsaber duels. I guess he sucks, huh. A deeper examination of circumstances and the actual facts about a character are the only thing that determines real worth in a thread. Zannahs defense isn't impenetrable, but Jaina lacks any way to actually penetrate it.

"Average lightning"... Lol it blasted whole through a Vong.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
What black-vodoo-magic-looking-sorcery did you use on this thread to get so many replies?

You're guess is as good as mine dude. I thought this thread was gonna bomb lol. Though it could be this Thread has been a Work-in-progress since July/august, even then only a few people knew about it.

Originally posted by ares834
"Average lightning"... Lol it blasted whole through a Vong.

Jaina is a Jedi, I doubt she could attain the levels of rage she had at that time in a standard capacity.

I guess I may have mispoke though. All I meant was that it was no threat to Zannah, who can dodge or defend against it easily enough.

So, I've missed a few posts, but there is disbelief that Jaina Solo would be able to penetrate Darth Zammah's lightsaber defense?

I've read all the novels concerning these two.

Jaina Solo is a top teir Duelest who is 2nd in her era behind only Luke.

She has shatterpoint.

Not sure what else needs to be said on that point.

Zannah's bladework isn't Jaina's problem; her sith sorcery is.

Every time a Zannah debate pops up, the same fallacious arguments tend to come up regarding Zannah's 'impenetrable' defensive prowess.

It's particularly ridiculous to claim that Zannah's defenses can't be broken even by a more skilled contemporary, unless their raw offensive power supersedes Bane's. In reality though, that really isn't how lightsaber duels tend to work. Out of everyone in the mythos, there wasn't a single duelist that could completely wipe the floor with Obi-Wan more consummately than Tyranus. And trust me, he did not have the ferocity of a Darth Maul nor could he replicate the brutal onslaught that Anakin could unleash. He overcame Kenobi's defenses through greater skill and bladework, and it's foolishness to think that the case is any different with Zannah. We saw from the second half of her battle with Bane that her technique could be effectively countered by greater technical proficiency, unorthodoxy, and precision. And it's silly to have thought otherwise in the first place. Soresu is a fighting form, not a durasteel wall.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
So, I've missed a few posts, but there is disbelief that Jaina Solo would be able to penetrate Darth Zammah's lightsaber defense?

I've read all the novels concerning these two.

Jaina Solo is a top teir Duelest who is 2nd in her era behind only Luke.

She has shatterpoint.

Not sure what else needs to be said on that point.

Zannah's bladework isn't Jaina's problem; her sith sorcery is.

Has Jaina actually used Shatterpoint in a duel though?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Has Jaina actually used Shatterpoint in a duel though?

If there was a shatterpoint in Zannah's defense, Jaina would see it. It's innate.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Every time a Zannah debate pops up, the same fallacious arguments tend to come up regarding Zannah's 'impenetrable' defensive prowess.

It's particularly ridiculous to claim that Zannah's defenses can't be broken even by a more skilled contemporary, unless their raw offensive power supersedes Bane's. In reality though, that really isn't how lightsaber duels tend to work. Out of everyone in the mythos, there wasn't a single duelist that could completely wipe the floor with Obi-Wan more consummately than Tyranus. And trust me, he did not have the ferocity of a Darth Maul nor could he replicate the brutal onslaught that Anakin could unleash. He overcame Kenobi's defenses through greater skill and bladework, and it's foolishness to think that the case is any different with Zannah. We saw from the second half of her battle with Bane that her technique could be effectively countered by greater technical proficiency, unorthodoxy, and precision. And it's foolishness to have thought otherwise in the first place. Soresu is a fighting form, not a durasteel wall.

Zannah's defensive style does largely imitate a wall though.

I'm unsure if I've actually said that you need more raw offense than Bane to get through her defense. All I've pointed out is that there's seemingly no way for Jaina to get passed Zannah's defense and asked if the people supporting Jaina can actually make an argument for it. Just stating "skill" isn't enough. Jaina is NOT a superior duelist to Bane however. She will not accomplish what he couldn't without environmental aid. She hasn't even been established as the better swordsman, people are just assuming Zannah sucks as usual.

And no, Zannah's technique was not "effectively countered". As I've established time and again, Bane was not overpowering or getting through her defense. Nor was he relying on technical proficiency or accuracy. Before that point he unleashed a devastating, complex series of attacks on Zannah which she dealt with without issue. The only thing pushing her back was his constant repositioning and unpredictable pattern of attacks that made her slowly retreat. Could Jaina replicate this? Maybe. But what would it accomplish exactly? By itself it doesn't beat her.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
If there was a shatterpoint in Zannah's defense, Jaina would see it. It's innate.

All Jedi can use Shatterpoint. It's innate. Just not to the degree of actually making use of it in combat. The only thing Jaina has done is shatter some stationary objects, not seen through an opponents defense. As far as I know, depsite being taught the technique before fighting him, she wasn't able to use it against Caedus in their duel. Or against anyone else since.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah's defensive style does largely imitate a wall though.

I'm unsure if I've actually said that you need more raw offense than Bane to get through her defense. All I've pointed out is that there's seemingly no way for Jaina to get passed Zannah's defense and asked if the people supporting Jaina can actually make an argument for it. Jaina is NOT a superior duelist to Bane however. She will not accomplish what he couldn't without environmental aid. She hasn't even been established as a better swordsman, people are just assuming Zannah sucks as usual.

And no, Zannah's technique was not "effectively countered". As I've established time and again, Bane was not overpowering or getting through her defense. Nor was he relying on technical proficiency or accuracy. Before that point he unleashed a devastating, complex series of attacks on Zannah which she dealt with without issue. The only thing pushing her back was his constant repositioning and unpredictable pattern of attacks that made her slowly retreat. Could Jaina replicate this? Maybe. But what would it accomplish exactly?

I saw your post about general ignorance and bias earlier, and wow, the irony was great here. I love it.

Have fun with your show

You have.



I was criticizing a general line of thinking more than the current debate.

I am quite surprised the vote isn't at least closer, I'll note. I expected more support for the Sith lord who did beat Bane.

People are reaching the boiling point of the Zannah worship, apparently. Also, Jaina's really no joke--Perhaps even the strongest Jedi of her day after Luke left the Order, rivaled only by figures like Kyp Durron.

Alright, so In order to spice things up. I'm adding some that will make things interesting. Up until this moment, i have not voted in any of my tournament battles, however as of now, I, The OP will decide on a concluding argument and My vote shall go towards the character that the argument supports. In each round, I will wait for arguments that are well presented and logical and not just vote for people who I consider to be superior.

That said, My vote will not decide the victor, but it will support that character.

This will continue from this Round and into the next ones. This is for fun and makes for a pretty interesting side objective imo. Happy debating and Good luck

Jaina wins solidly, you know how many Soresu masters were in the NJO? like seriously? and she was better than literally all of them bar Luke.

She beat a Vong Warmaster as a CRIPPLE, like seriously wut?

Oh and if you want to talk about mind games, Jaina has faced the Dark Temple with just a migraine, faced ABELOTH who had like reaper indoctrination levels of mind****ery.

Jaina was such a master duelist that both Kyp and Kyle admitted that she knew everything they did and more.

You know what she will do? she'll see that nice long handle of Zannah's and beat the leaving crap out of it.

Zannah gets an injury in on Jaina? no worries she has a near instantaneous healing trance.

People need to realize that Caedus was way more powerful than Bane ever was, he was confirmed to be much more powerful than Vader and Bane is not on Vader's level, no matter how much wank you want to throw at Dessel's way.

Seriously it would take two pages to list Jaina's feats but Soresu is not going to get in her way by any means, Soresu was nearly as run of the mill in the NJO as Shii-Cho and Niman were in the old order.

In-fact I am pretty sure that Kyle said Soresu was antiquated and he was the battle master(whom by the way Caedus TK stomped along with his Jedi pals) of the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jaina wins solidly, you know how many Soresu masters were in the NJO?
I honestly have not heard of any renown Soresu masters in the NJO, so if you could illuminate me, that would be awesome.


Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and if you want to talk about mind games, Jaina has faced the Dark Temple with just a migraine, faced ABELOTH who had like reaper indoctrination levels of mind****ery.
Did Abeloth ever use any of this mind****ery against Jaina?

Walking up to the Dark Temple without collapsing or going insane is not nearly good enough to suggest she'd cope with Zannah's illusions...

Originally posted by AncientPower
Seriously it would take two pages to list Jaina's feats but Soresu is not going to get in her way by any means, Soresu was nearly as run of the mill in the NJO as Shii-Cho and Niman were in the old order.

In-fact I am pretty sure that Kyle said Soresu was antiquated and he was the battle master(whom by the way Caedus TK stomped along with his Jedi pals) of the Jedi Order.
That evidence completely contradicts your argument...

"Antiquated" means outdated, suggesting that it is not widely practiced, and would be more akin to what Makashi was for the old order.

Kyle Katarn said it was, not the entire order. I will list out users of Soresu and/or it's evolved Form V variant Shien:

Kyle Katarn
Saba Sebatyne
Luke Skywalker
Darth Caedus
Anakin Solo
Tionne Solusar
Kyp Durron


I can name others but keep in mind the old forms were merged with the new ones eventually, so whilst many are excellent defensive fighters, Soresu nor Shien may be the source of this.

But regardless defensive lightsaber combat was seen as the staple of the NJO due to the number of wars being fought.

Jaina Solo herself was seen as wielding Form V combat described by Caedus as: 'conservative, brutal, ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering any in return.'

But moving on... let us not forget that Jaina can even beat Zannah at her own game... stealth.

Jaina was very well skilled in the arts of infiltration and could even shut down her connection so as to be invisible to Force Sense techniques and even Force Bonds, rendering any of Zannah's pre-cog abilities useless.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
People are reaching the boiling point of the Zannah worship, apparently. Also, Jaina's really no joke--Perhaps even the strongest Jedi of her day after Luke left the Order, rivaled only by figures like Kyp Durron.
Exactly. Ironically, the people voting for Zannah never even read Fate of the Jedi.

I amused how people assume that Jaina is not going to penetrate Zannah's defense because Bane couldn't as if he is somehow superior to Jaina. What's even more hilarious is that Bane did disarm her in a few swift moves anyway.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
People are reaching the boiling point of the Zannah worship, apparently. Also, Jaina's really no joke--Perhaps even the strongest Jedi of her day after Luke left the Order, rivaled only by figures like Kyp Durron.
Not even Kyp Durron. Lets not forget that he got handled by a single weakened Slayer. While Jaina got attacked by 7 Slayers and they failed to take her down. And that's Jaina before her prime and Mandalorian training.