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Indestructible planet, suspended in an indestructible dimension with indestructible atmosphere and indestructible environment etcetera

Norrin fights intelligently and to the best of his abilities tho not OOC. Betty is raging and fighting like only a Hulk would.

Who wins?

First scan...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094165/Incredible_Hulks_632_015.jpg.html

Second scans...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094167/Incredible_Hulks_632_016.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094184/Incredible_Hulks_632_017.jpg.html

3rd scans...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094185/Incredible_Hulks_632_018.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094186/Incredible_Hulks_632_019.jpg.html

This was a holding back World Breaker. Betty was fighting equal against an unleashed World Breaker. She stomps.

Sigh

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Indestructible planet, suspended in an indestructible dimension with indestructible atmosphere and indestructible environment etcetera

Norrin fights intelligently and to the best of his abilities tho not OOC. Betty is raging and fighting like only a Hulk would.

Who wins?

When you say at the best of his ability, do you mean the best that he has shown on panel? Or are you turning off his personality,to allow people to claim how he would fight out of character? In character he loses. Betty was clearly above the physical stats of a character that has, and always will give Norrin a really good fight.

I don't see him winning at all. Betty was written to be well above his tier, and we have seen how well he does against characters well above his tier. if not he just BFR's her the moment that the battle begins.

Originally posted by Sin I AM


Norrin fights intelligently and to the best of his abilities tho not OOC.

He bfrs her for the majority. Didn't see the part where everything is in his favor for this fight.

In that case, Betty as a Red Hulk would add his abilities to her already over the top might, and wind up killing him. She would be far more dangerous to Norrin than the Hulk would be. Norrin is a well of power, she is a power sponge. I don't think that this is a very good match up for him TBH.

Surfer telepathically fills her mind with bliss while simultaneously projecting a mental image of peaceful scenery. While Betty is enthralled in this mental euphoria Surfer slowly drains her of her powers until she becomes human Betty. He then sits peacefully while human Betty enjoys an endless dream unaware that she's still in the battle.

Surfer ftw via Hippy Compassion.

http://media.giphy.com/media/433IpqycHzvkk/giphy.gif

OR Surfer attacks her soul like with Prince of Orphans.

Norrin opens a black hole in her brain.

Or powers up on her radiation, like he siphoned off the Uni Lord. (An abstract level being)

All of the above statements fail to take a lot into consideration. At the time of HOTM they hadn't yet nerfed the Red Hulks to the point of what they have become these days. Let's talk about what a Red Hulk can do before making it out as if the Surfer would take an auto win from one. After all, Ross drained the Surfer before he could even begin to launch an attack, Arm'Cheddon did as well, Khoon denied him, and nearly killed him. He isn't invincible. When Betty was in the Dark Dimension, and fought against Banner, her powers didn't somehow change from what they were before she became involved with the Wishing Well.

I've said this before, the Wishing Well did not change her powers in terms of how they worked up til that point, they just gave her the ability to keep pace with Banner as he continued to climb in power, by siphoning his power into herself. Rulk had a limit to the amount of power that he was able to absorb when he fought the Hulk, and Thor. This was shown when he began to overheat (Side Note - The Wishing Well prevented this from happening to Betty). The Surfer is not as powerful as both Thor, and the Savage Hulk combined. Together, they would destroy him. Betty on the other hand was so amped up with power during HOTM, that there would be no way for the Surfer to overload or overpower her.

This is how it would literally look. Betty comes in well above the high Herald tier, as her power levels are as high as they were during the HOTM arc, and she has the ability to drain off the Surfer's powers and add them to hers. This included being able to use his very powers against him. Rulk was able to do this and even rode the Surfer's board.

There may be people out there who would like nothing better than to ignore how her powers work, but nevertheless her powers are canon. As far as I know, Rulk's Loeb stories were not retconned, and are still part of Red Hulk cannon. To give the Surfer the win here, would be to ignore that he wouldn't be much more than a snack to Betty at the level that she was at, when she was in the Dark Dimension. I can't see him winning at all.

Norrin didn't even try and energy drain Rulk, though. This is something he's proven he could do against various Hulk incarnations. If he could do it to a being as powerful as Uni Lord, he could certainly drain any Hulk. Even a World Breaker (Or Superman Prime, for that matter)

Or we could post that scene where the Avengers (including Thor), the Fantastic Four along with some other heros were called nothing compared to WWH and was casually dismissed with a stomp.

http://s980.photobucket.com/user/ankur2292/media/IncredibleHulk611005.jpg.html
http://s980.photobucket.com/user/ankur2292/media/IncredibleHulk611006.jpg.html

Don't think people grasped how powerful Pak Hulk was and Betty in the Dark Dimension was magnitudes more powerful than WWH.

Didn't Rulk drain Silver Surfer she might try that but she might

Originally posted by cdtm
Norrin didn't even try and energy drain Rulk, though. This is something he's proven he could do against various Hulk incarnations. If he could do it to a being as powerful as Uni Lord, he could certainly drain any Hulk. Even a World Breaker (Or Superman Prime, for that matter)

Rulk was able to drain off the Watcher, Betty was far more powerful than Rulk was due mainly to what the Wishing Well was doing for her. You can't be trying to ignore the Wishing Well, can you? Let's not confuse a Red Hulk with the Green Hulk. A Green Hulk absorbs energy innately, while a Red Hulk absorbs energy consciously, and innately. If Norrin was able to counter being drained by a red Hulk he would have countered it when Rulk was draining him, or when Arm'Cheddon was doing nearly the same. he is not immune to being drained.

Again Betty and Rulk were not remotely in the same league in terms of power. Betty crushes him in scale, and scope. I don't care about what he did to Uni Lord, like I said, just look at what Rulk did to the Watcher, the Grand Master, and the rest of the very powerful characters that he literally walked on, this also includes the Surfer himself.

Betty made Rulk look like a 10 pound weakling. She has the ability to siphon his abilities, power, and energy, And she is backed by the Wishing Well. The Surfer isn't as powerful as you seem to be trying to make him out to be. There is a reason why he is a high Herald. Betty was well above this level.

Originally posted by carver9
Or we could post that scene where the Avengers (including Thor), the Fantastic Four along with some other heros were called nothing compared to WWH and was casually dismissed with a stomp.

http://s980.photobucket.com/user/ankur2292/media/IncredibleHulk611005.jpg.html
http://s980.photobucket.com/user/ankur2292/media/IncredibleHulk611006.jpg.html

Don't think people grasped how powerful Pak Hulk was and Betty in the Dark Dimension was magnitudes more powerful than WWH.



Originally posted by golem370
Didn't Rulk drain Silver Surfer she might try that but she might

Originally posted by carver9
Or we could post that scene where the Avengers (including Thor), the Fantastic Four along with some other heros were called nothing compared to WWH and was casually dismissed with a stomp.

http://s980.photobucket.com/user/ankur2292/media/IncredibleHulk611005.jpg.html
http://s980.photobucket.com/user/ankur2292/media/IncredibleHulk611006.jpg.html

Don't think people grasped how powerful Pak Hulk was and Betty in the Dark Dimension was magnitudes more powerful than WWH.

And they're still a bug compared to Uni Lord.

We're not talking a trans tier here.. Uni Lord was above Skyfather level, easily. More on par with Galactus or Eternity then anything.. He created life, people, a universe. He played with souls like people play with toys, and split up Surfer's body into pieces like he was a jigsaw puzzle. Surfer only beat him because his draining his energy into himself. It hurt tremendously, and he couldn't contain such power forever, but it marks him as possibly the greatest power drainer in comics. Well above the likes of Parasite.

Which makes sense. Big G did claim he created Norrin to oppose him one day, and the most efficient way to ensure that is by creating someone that could absorb enough power to become a real threat..

Originally posted by cdtm
And they're still a bug compared to Uni Lord.

We're not talking a trans tier here.. Uni Lord was above Skyfather level, easily. More on par with Galactus or Eternity then anything.. He created life, people, a universe. He played with souls like people play with toys, and split up Surfer's body into pieces like he was a jigsaw puzzle. Surfer only beat him because his draining his energy into himself. It hurt tremendously, and he couldn't contain such power forever, but it marks him as possibly the greatest power drainer in comics. Well above the likes of Parasite.

Which makes sense. Big G did claim he created Norrin to oppose him one day, and the most efficient way to ensure that is by creating someone that could absorb enough power to become a real threat..

BS. The Surfer is a herald level character, let's not try to attempt to raise him to Abstract levels, because if he was, his battles with Thor, Morg, Firelord, Aegis, Tenebrous, and Thanos himself would have gone differently. Odin one shot slapped the hell out of him. Your argument holds no weight. Face it, a one shot good showing will not overturn all of his average showings. By the way, did you read the OP? SIA said in character.

Actually, on average his showings are well above the likes of Thor and Hulk, and quite a bit closer to trans level. It's just, he's a B list character. He's always look even with Thor "at best", in the same way Alan Scott will never outshine Hal Jordan, even though by rights he should as he's much more powerful...

Originally posted by cdtm
Actually, on average his showings are well above the likes of Thor and Hulk, and quite a bit closer to trans level. It's just, he's a B list character. He's always look even with Thor "at best", in the same way Alan Scott will never outshine Hal Jordan, even though by rights he should as he's much more powerful...

Betty was far above the Surfer, and no he isn't above thor. Based on how their battles go, Thor could have simply drained him with Mjolnir. The Surfer would get his butt kicked by Thor and the Savage Hulk combined. This shouldn't be that hard for you to see. Rulk beat the tar out of Uatu, and the Grand Master. Betty was so far above Rulk, that you can't begin to compare the two. Norrin is not a Trans level character, the high herald tier was fashioned after him after all. Thanos is a true Trans level character, and there is no comparison between the two based on what has happened on panel.

Odin slapped the taste out of the Surfer's mouth. There is a huge difference between Thanos, and the Surfer. There is also a big difference between the Surfer, and HOTM Betty. She'd tag, and bag him.

Originally posted by Stoic
Betty was far above the Surfer, and no he isn't above thor. Based on how their battles go, Thor could have simply drained him with Mjolnir. The Surfer would get his butt kicked by Thor and the Savage Hulk combined. This shouldn't be that hard for you to see. Rulk beat the tar out of Uatu, and the Grand Master. Betty was so far above Rulk, that you can't begin to compare the two. Norrin is not a Trans level character, the high herald tier was fashioned after him after all. Thanos is a true Trans level character, and there is no comparison between the two based on what has happened on panel.

Odin slapped the taste out of the Surfer's mouth. There is a huge difference between Thanos, and the Surfer. There is also a big difference between the Surfer, and HOTM Betty. She'd tag, and bag him.

You're rambling

Originally posted by Sin I AM
You're rambling

Comparisons had to be set in order for some to realize that Betty was on a higher level than the Surfer.

Alan Scott has outshined Hal Jordan many times, CDTM

Originally posted by Stoic
Comparisons had to be set in order for some to realize that Betty was on a higher level than the Surfer.

It's nothing he hasn't faced before solo. And thanos having his number doesn't mean betty would

Originally posted by Sin I AM
It's nothing he hasn't faced before solo. And thanos having his number doesn't mean betty would

Yes, it actually does. Just like Rulk had his number. You wonder why I ramble, but then it seems like you didn't read a thing that I wrote. Betty was far above Rulk's level, and he easily drained, and killed the Surfer. He took his abilities, and energy. He even beat Uatu nearly to death. Betty during HOTM was far above Rulk's level. Unlike a green Hulk, a red hulk has been shown to do exactly what I said Betty would do to the Surfer. What others have stated goes against what has happened on panel. The idea that you made this thread makes me believe that you are either trying to drag a high Trans down to mid Herald or lower, or you weren't able to recognize just how powerful Betty had become.

U can't attribute rulks wankfest to red shulk. They aren't interchangeable

I've never seen Betty drain on the level that Rulk was on.

Red Hulk drained a noob inexperienced Surfer

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I've never seen Betty drain on the level that Rulk was on.

Well, she doesn't need too since she drained Rulk himself.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Red Hulk drained a noob inexperienced Surfer

It wouldn't matter anyway as she wouldn't have the skill level to drain surfer without pis backing especially given his feats.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
It wouldn't matter anyway as she wouldn't have the skill level to drain surfer without pis backing especially given his feats.

Who do you think wins? How many wins would you give out of 10?

Originally posted by carver9
Who do you think wins? How many wins would you give out of 10?

Well its not a how many outta ten. It's a percentage of one fight. It varies. I think fighting smartly he will drain betty while using his speed advantage to do fly bys. Using that route he has a seventy to eighty percent chance of victory. If he goes h2h he's done for

Betty smashes Norrin into a pile of scrap metal. Drainage not necessary.

An intelligent Surfer who can fly and won't go fisticuffs? 10/10

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Well its not a how many outta ten. It's a percentage of one fight. It varies. I think fighting smartly he will drain betty while using his speed advantage to do fly bys. Using that route he has a seventy to eighty percent chance of victory. If he goes h2h he's done for

This isn't about h2h and draining her is unlikely to happen. Armageddon couldn't even drain WWH (the same person who didn't have a problem messing with Surfer powers) completely of his power and again, Betty during this era was a more powerful Hulk. Draining isn't going to work, especially against a character that can amp off of Surfers output or him being in the vicinity.

Speed advantage really doesn't hold here. Especially against a character that missed attacks would damage Surfer. She could miss a punch and cause catastrophic damage.

Well, you're wrong. You already tried to hinder this fight in favor of Surfer, but your examples are not helping you.

Originally posted by carver9
This isn't about h2h and draining her is unlikely to happen. Armageddon couldn't even drain WWH (the same person who didn't have a problem messing with Surfer powers) completely of his power and again, Betty during this era was a more powerful Hulk. Draining isn't going to work, especially against a character that can amp off of Surfers output or him being in the vicinity.

Speed advantage really doesn't hold here. Especially against a character that missed attacks would damage Surfer. She could miss a punch and cause catastrophic damage.

Well, you're wrong. You already tried to hinder this fight in favor of Surfer, but your examples are not helping you.

How did i hinder this match?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
An intelligent Surfer who can fly and won't go fisticuffs? 10/10

Intelligence + Surfer dont go hand in hand. mhmm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I've never seen Betty drain on the level that Rulk was on.

What do you think that she was doing in the Dark Dimension?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
U can't attribute rulks wankfest to red shulk. They aren't interchangeable

both of their powers worked exactly the same way at that point in time. They weren't nerfed yet. i said this already way back when i appeared to be rambling. The Surfer is not above being drained himself. Red Hulk's at that point did not have to be touching their opponents for them to take power from them either. Their draining capabilities were done both innately, and consciously.

Originally posted by carver9
Who do you think wins? How many wins would you give out of 10?

Betty destroys him 100%

Originally posted by Sin I AM
How did i hinder this match?

You didn't hinder the match, but placing Betty up against a high Herald means that you believe that she was a high Herald. WW Hulk was a high Herald. When he went into the Dark Dimension as the world breaker he became far more than he was. Betty did as well. My impression is that you were thinking that Betty was at a far lower level than she actually was. This is not true if this is what you were actually thinking when you made this thread. Anyone that believes this would be ignoring the entire story behind what happened during that arc. It would be like saying that OWAW Superman never had an amp, and he could have done all of the things that he did do without it.

She was wished to be on his level?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She was wished to be on his level?

The Wishing Well did not change the fundamental ways that her powers worked. Did any of the other characters under the Wishing Well suddenly change their power sets? She was given the ability to keep pace with the Hulk, and not overheat like Rulk did when he was fighting Thor and Savage Hulk. Betty like Rulk, was given the ability to drain powers, and abilities when they became Red Hulk's. However, they had limits to the amount of power that they could drain like all characters have limits. This includes the Silver Surfer.

Insane Titan said that Rulk drained a noob Surfer, what was Uatu's excuse? He would have drained the Surfer no matter what the Surfer's skill was at that point in time. you have to remember that at the time of the HOTM arc, they had not yet begun to nerf Rulk's powers down, or wirte him up to never being able to change back to human if he used his powers in those ways again. Actually Betty was never given those restrictions from my knowledge. At her most powerful, she was beyond the Surfer, just like she was beyond the high Herald class.

So IOW, no limits?

Luke Cage has the super strength power set. Ergo, he is a planet buster.

Hour man has the super speed power set. He can blitz the Flash.

Sebastian Shaw absorbs kinetic energy. Galactus better not headbutt him.

Spectrum absorbs energy. Monarch better not rupture his suit around her.

Powersets are one thing, you're ignoring power levels.

Not to mention, you're crossing and sharing feats.

Not all Green Lanterns dole out Krona Busters.

Not all hammer bros are Thor.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So IOW, no limits?

Luke Cage has the super strength power set. Ergo, he is a planet buster.

Hour man has the super speed power set. He can blitz the Flash.

Sebastian Shaw absorbs kinetic energy. Galactus better not headbutt him.

Spectrum absorbs energy. Monarch better not rupture his suit around her.

Powersets are one thing, you're ignoring power levels.

What does this have to do with anything DS? Red She Hulk was a world breaker. WW Hulk was a high Herald, and he was written to be far below what he became in the dark dimension. Another character does not have to have infinite power to defeat the Surfer, why even bring that ridiculous tactic to the forefront? Betty was more powerful than the Surfer, and she would be able to drain him just like Rulk was able to drain him, and Uatu, who was in turn drained by Betty. Not to mention that I already stated that red hulk's were shown to have limits.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not to mention, you're crossing and sharing feats.

Not all Green Lanterns dole out Krona Busters.

Not all hammer bros are Thor.

Both of their powers worked the same, the only difference here is that Betty was far more powerful than Rulk was when she was in the Dark Dimension. You may not even be able to calculate the disparity in power between the two. They had the exact same powers, and it didn't take the kind of concentration to drain their victims as it does for Green Lanterns to pull off their higher power stunts. This is why I made certain to mention how a red Hulk's powers were both innate, and conscious when being used offensively. You can continue to try to ignore Betty being above the high herald mark if you want to, but it won't change the fact that she was.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So IOW, no limits?

Luke Cage has the super strength power set. Ergo, he is a planet buster.

Hour man has the super speed power set. He can blitz the Flash.

Sebastian Shaw absorbs kinetic energy. Galactus better not headbutt him.

Spectrum absorbs energy. Monarch better not rupture his suit around her.

Powersets are one thing, you're ignoring power levels.

Oh and I'm not the one ignoring power level here. You are. The Wishing Well gave Betty the ability to go up as high as needed to match the Hulk. This is something that you may be ignoring.

Wait wait wait. So you're using Betty as a World breaker in this fight?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait wait wait. So you're using Betty as a World breaker in this fight?

DS, look at the OP brother. HOTM.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait wait wait. So you're using Betty as a World breaker in this fight?

Yes bettys feats during the HOTM arc. Not Rulks or Hulks. Just betty. People seem to keep interchanging feats

Originally posted by Stoic
What do you think that she was doing in the Dark Dimension?



both of their powers worked exactly the same way at that point in time. They weren't nerfed yet. i said this already way back when i appeared to be rambling. The Surfer is not above being drained himself. Red Hulk's at that point did not have to be touching their opponents for them to take power from them either. Their draining capabilities were done both innately, and consciously.



Betty destroys him 100%



You didn't hinder the match, but placing Betty up against a high Herald means that you believe that she was a high Herald. WW Hulk was a high Herald. When he went into the Dark Dimension as the world breaker he became far more than he was. Betty did as well. My impression is that you were thinking that Betty was at a far lower level than she actually was. This is not true if this is what you were actually thinking when you made this thread. Anyone that believes this would be ignoring the entire story behind what happened during that arc. It would be like saying that OWAW Superman never had an amp, and he could have done all of the things that he did do without it.

One theyre feats arent interchangeable no matter how similar their powerset and two that's why i created the match to see where she should be ranked and who other than the best herald in the tier to test her

Originally posted by Sin I AM
One theyre feats arent interchangeable no matter how similar their powerset and two that's why i created the match to see where she should be ranked and who other than the best herald in the tier to test her

Okay I didn't realize the true reason why you set up this match, but betty was as powerful as World Breaker Hulk was, due mainly to the Wishing Well's properties enabling her to match the Hulk as he climbed in power. This is because she was actively using her powers, and the Wishing Well kept her from overloading as she ramped up with him. She was a solid Trans tier character. All things considered.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
One theyre feats arent interchangeable no matter how similar their powerset and two that's why i created the match to see where she should be ranked and who other than the best herald in the tier to test her

Well, that isn't a way to test her since you've handicapped her and then put Norman in a mindset he rarely if ever use on panel. An argument can be made for him beating anyone outside of Odin. She is ranked where she should be ranked at in this kind of state..trans tier. Don't be a hater Sin because your acting like one.

Originally posted by carver9
Well, that isn't a way to test her since you've handicapped her and then put Norman in a mindset he rarely if ever use on panel. An argument can be made for him beating anyone outside of Odin. She is ranked where she should be ranked at in this kind of state..trans tier. Don't be a hater Sin because your acting like one.

Handicapped how is she handicapped? She's at her most powerful iirc. Norrin is simply fighting with cis off. I already stated in the op he does not go OOC so your point holds no weight

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Handicapped how is she handicapped? She's at her most powerful iirc. Norrin is simply fighting with cis off. I already stated in the op he does not go OOC so your point holds no weight

CIS should be off for both.

But he is fighting intelligently, fighting to the best of his ability which is OOC.

Originally posted by carver9
CIS should be off for both.

But he is fighting intelligently, fighting to the best of his ability which is OOC.

No it's actually how all forum fights are, unless otherwise stipulated. Read the rules. You've been here awhile you should know them.

So yes cis is off for both per rules

Originally posted by Sin I AM
No it's actually how all forum fights are, unless otherwise stipulated. Read the rules. You've been here awhile you should know them.

So yes cis is off for both per rules

Forum rules also states that they fight in character which means CIS is on.

You can fight to the best of your ability with CIS still being on though. For instance, if the Karate Kid fought to the best of his ability against the Surfer who had power dampeners on, stopping him from firing off energy blasts, KK would kick his butt in. His ability to combat KK under these terms does not somehow lesson him, or turn him into a moron. It would just showcase KK's knowledge of martial arts, which are superior to Norrin's.

Originally posted by carver9
Forum rules also states that they fight in character which means CIS is on.

Read the forum rules, then read the OP. Then get back to me

Originally posted by Stoic
You can fight to the best of your ability with CIS still being on though. For instance, if the Karate Kid fought to the best of his ability against the Surfer who had power dampeners on, stopping him from firing off energy blasts, KK would kick his butt in. His ability to combat KK under these terms does not somehow lesson him, or turn him into a moron. It would just showcase KK's knowledge of martial arts, which are superior to Norrin's.
I have no idea what you're saying

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I have no idea what you're saying

CIS being on does not make a character a moron. Even with it off there will always be a level or limit to their combat ability or knowledge. For instance if you gave Batman the Iron Man armor, he would be more dangerous than Tony is with the armor. The Surfer isn't that great of a fighter, because he doesn't have to be.

Originally posted by Stoic
CIS being on does not make a character a moron. Even with it off there will always be a level or limit to their combat ability or knowledge. For instance if you gave Batman the Iron Man armor, he would be more dangerous than Tony is with the armor. The Surfer isn't that great of a fighter, because he doesn't have to be.

That's a horrible analogy

Originally posted by Sin I AM
That's a horrible analogy

Well if you were to take CIS completely off you would have people making claims about the Surfer that he has not shown to be capable of on average. Besides you can't have it both ways. You said from the jump, that the Surfer would not fight out of character. I'm just saying, that he can still fight in character to the best of his ability like any other character can. That's all that I'm saying.

I just realized how awesome Surfer's name is. Norrin Radd.

It's truly radical.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well if you were to take CIS completely off you would have people making claims about the Surfer that he has not shown to be capable of on average. Besides you can't have it both ways. You said from the jump, that the Surfer would not fight out of character. I'm just saying, that he can still fight in character to the best of his ability like any other character can. That's all that I'm saying.

Omfg im gonna have an aneurysm. Full capacity, yet doesn't fight ooc.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Omfg im gonna have an aneurysm. Full capacity, yet doesn't fight ooc.

If you don't understand that both of those mean the same thing then something is wrong with you.

Originally posted by carver9
CIS should be off for both.

But he is fighting intelligently, fighting to the best of his ability which is OOC.



Combat rules are pretty clear here.. If Flash could KO someone in a pico second, which never, EVER happens in the comics, then Norrin should fight smart, and to the best of his ability.

The personality thing is the unclear part, but probably implies alignment issues, like whether someone would kill or not, or whether someone's specifically written as stupid (Like Rhino, say, which Norrin certainly isn't written like, as he has numerous examples of using his powers intelligently and effectively in combat.)

Originally posted by cdtm
Combat rules are pretty clear here.. If Flash could KO someone in a pico second, which never, EVER happens in the comics, then Norrin should fight smart, and to the best of his ability.

The personality thing is the unclear part, but probably implies alignment issues, like whether someone would kill or not, or whether someone's specifically written as stupid (Like Rhino, say, which Norrin certainly isn't written like, as he has numerous examples of using his powers intelligently and effectively in combat.)

So Surfer and Firelord can beat Superman 10/10?

Originally posted by carver9
If you don't understand that both of those mean the same thing then something is wrong with you.

Pretty much. Then again when a person decides that they want to be difficult, nothings going to stop them from doing just that.

Originally posted by cdtm
Combat rules are pretty clear here.. If Flash could KO someone in a pico second, which never, EVER happens in the comics, then Norrin should fight smart, and to the best of his ability.

The personality thing is the unclear part, but probably implies alignment issues, like whether someone would kill or not, or whether someone's specifically written as stupid (Like Rhino, say, which Norrin certainly isn't written like, as he has numerous examples of using his powers intelligently and effectively in combat.)

Correct. Norrin like the Hulk aren't murderers (not sure what's so hard to understand about that?). Betty on the other hand had issues. When she became a red Hulk her sexuality became heightened, as well as her penchant for violence. Look at how she treated Skaar, and he's only about 12 yrs old, if that.

As for using his powers effectively. He would be in a fight that automatically would begin with him being gimped, due to the red Hulk's ability to siphon off his powers, and abilities like Rulk did to Thor in their first meeting. Add to the fact that she was already a solid Trans tier, and what you get is a stomp session. You may want to think that it would take her months to use his powers, but if that were so, Rulk wouldn't have been riding on that board like a boss.

Originally posted by carver9
If you don't understand that both of those mean the same thing then something is wrong with you.

No it doesn't.

I think I've managed to hit the root of all your problems here, carver.

Originally posted by Stoic
DS, look at the OP brother. HOTM.

My bad, I'm a fool.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My bad, I'm a fool.

You're not. the Surfer would take her if she didn't have the WW to help her keep pace with all of his powers. Well at least these days he would. Loeb was obviously going for the old school Pre Crisis feel, when he decided to invent the red Hulks.

It wasnt intended for her to have her powers amp to ss. It was supposed to be for hulk

Originally posted by carver9
So Surfer and Firelord can beat Superman 10/10?

Surfer, yeah. Firelord, unsure... He isn't Surfer, and I've never seen him ahow the variety of powers like energy drains, time stops, or high end transmutation..

Originally posted by Sin I AM
It wasnt intended for her to have her powers amp to ss. It was supposed to be for hulk

What does this mean exactly? Are you saying that you are denying her the use of her abilities?

Originally posted by cdtm
Surfer, yeah. Firelord, unsure... He isn't Surfer, and I've never seen him ahow the variety of powers like energy drains, time stops, or high end transmutation..

Firelord is the sun and he controls it on a cosmic level (i think you see where I am going here)...

At least you admit Surfer beats him 10/10 which is still inaccurate.

Originally posted by Stoic
What does this mean exactly? Are you saying that you are denying her the use of her abilities?

I keep repeating myself. Betty fights just like she did during the HOTM arc. She has the same powers she had during the HOTM arc. She has the same mindset she had during the HOTM arc. The only feats that can be used from her are from the HOTM arc. Savvy?

I'm starting to think a character's mindset and abilities is reflected in their fans..

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm starting to think a character's mindset and abilities is reflected in their fans..

He isn't a fan of Hulk though. So when it comes to Stoic and this thread, I don't think that's the case.

Originally posted by carver9
He isn't a fan of Hulk though. So when it comes to Stoic and this thread, I don't think that's the case.

Stoic isn't?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Stoic isn't?

He admitted he isn't a Hulk fan. The only Hulk he like is WWH.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Stoic isn't?

Apparently, there can only be one fan for the Hulk, and they all fight over that title. Heaven forbid they share the title of Fanniest One There Is. Meanwhile, every fight is a fistfight, and strength> all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Apparently, there can only be one fan for the Hulk, and they all fight over that title. Heaven forbid they share the title of Fanniest One There Is. Meanwhile, every fight is a fistfight, and strength> all.

It's a good thing that Betty has more than just her fists to rely on then

Originally posted by carver9
He admitted he isn't a Hulk fan. The only Hulk he like is WWH.

That's retarded. Its all the same hulk

Originally posted by carver9
He admitted he isn't a Hulk fan. The only Hulk he like is WWH.

Actually my words were that I did not like the infantile versions of the character. I like Doc Green, Mr. Fixit, Green Scar. I dislike the Savage Hulk. This means that I actually do like the Hulk. Now that you know how I really feel, you shouldn't have any reason to continue repeating what you just did.

^So basically you like the Hulk when he's in his 90s Xtreme anti-hero persona?

Originally posted by krisblaze
^So basically you like the Hulk when he's in his 90s Xtreme anti-hero persona?

I just like him intelligent, and calculating. I can't really relate to the infantile or retarded type of characters like Drax had become. I mean how interesting can a character like that actually be? Ooh Hulk go make doo-doo, and play in it. Peter David created an amazing idea, only for the next bunch of people to go behind him, and destroy years of character development.

Originally posted by carver9
Firelord is the sun and he controls it on a cosmic level (i think you see where I am going here)...

At least you admit Surfer beats him 10/10 which is still inaccurate.

On average, Surfer has the speed advantage, and lesser energy manipulator's like Triumph threatened to kill him, which Superman himself admitted is possible.

The speed edge of Surfer's big.. On par with Flashes, or better, but it often gets downplayed on KMC because of how writers handle comic fights (The same way Superman trades blows against characters that should never even touch him.)

Originally posted by cdtm
On average, Surfer has the speed advantage, and lesser energy manipulator's like Triumph threatened to kill him, which Superman himself admitted is possible.

The speed edge of Surfer's big.. On par with Flashes, or better, but it often gets downplayed on KMC because of how writers handle comic fights (The same way Superman trades blows against characters that should never even touch him.)

Surfer isn't beating Superman 10/10. That would put him out of the Herald tier. You debate off powerset forgetting the in- character part of the forum rules. Powerset debating, nothing short of Skyfather is beating Surfer...in character, people within his tier can hang with or beat him. We would have to ignore every showing with Surfer in it to debate in the fashion you are staying here.

Originally posted by Stoic
Actually my words were that I did not like the infantile versions of the character. I like Doc Green, Mr. Fixit, Green Scar. I dislike the Savage Hulk. This means that I actually do like the Hulk. Now that you know how I really feel, you shouldn't have any reason to continue repeating what you just did.

You know nothing of Fixit though, so how do you like the character?

There were some showings with Doc Green (who's only had a couple of comics) and WWH you were unfamiliar with.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer isn't beating Superman 10/10. That would put him out of the Herald tier. You debate off powerset forgetting the in- character part of the forum rules. Powerset debating, nothing short of Skyfather is beating Surfer...in character, people within his tier can hang with or beat him. We would have to ignore every showing with Surfer in it to debate in the fashion you are staying here.


He's power drained Quasar and Hulk, at least, and used more esoteric powers to end a fights relatively quickly (Like absorbing someone into his board.) There's no real reason why he wouldn't power drain Superman, where there's no PIS to keep the story flowing..

Arguing Surfer drains Superman isn't "debating power sets", it's debating a skill he's demonstrated in comics, that would be particularly bad for Superman.

As to the "arguing power sets" comment, I look at it like this: Does a character have a valid reason for "not" using a power or fight ending tactic? Like Martian Manhunter, when he forgets he can turn intangible. He's done it before, under various writers, and he's intelligent about it's use. So why doesn't he use it all the time?

Because if he did, it would make him overpowered against your typical brick.. Hence, PIS. It's not that he's stupid, it's a writer fiat issue.

Originally posted by cdtm
He's power drained Quasar and Hulk, at least, and used more esoteric powers to end a fights relatively quickly (Like absorbing someone into his board.) There's no real reason why he wouldn't power drain Superman, where there's no PIS to keep the story flowing..

Arguing Surfer drains Superman isn't "debating power sets", it's debating a skill he's demonstrated in comics, that would be particularly bad for Superman.

As to the "arguing power sets" comment, I look at it like this: Does a character have a valid reason for "not" using a power or fight ending tactic? Like Martian Manhunter, when he forgets he can turn intangible. He's done it before, under various writers, and he's intelligent about it's use. So why doesn't he use it all the time?

Because if he did, it would make him overpowered against your typical brick.. Hence, PIS. It's not that he's stupid, it's a writer fiat issue.

This, characters like Norrin have to be trolled to make a story flow

Originally posted by Sin I AM
This, characters like Norrin have to be trolled to make a story flow

Pretty much.

And this is kinda why I use BFR so much.

How IDIOTIC must you think of a character, that if they were losing, they wouldn't use BFR? Even someone as arrogant as Namor, for example, sees the value in retreat and fighting another day.

Yet the way some people talk, it goes like this:

Character A: I'll use this power.

*ineffective*

Character A: I know! It didn't work the first time, so I'll keep using it! Wait, now I'm losing. Maybe if I keep doing the same thing, I will win! Now I'm being beaten very badly.

I'll keep doing the same thing!! Surely my luck will change!

THAT is how people think Surfer or anyone with a varied powerset/speed fights, for some reason...

Originally posted by carver9
You know nothing of Fixit though, so how do you like the character?

There were some showings with Doc Green (who's only had a couple of comics) and WWH you were unfamiliar with.

Should I report you now or later? How do you know what I know Carver? You can still like a character without lying about what they can, and can't do. This is something that you are apparently incapable of doing with the way that you constantly misrepresent everything. Go work on yourself before pointing fingers.

Originally posted by Stoic
Should I report you now or later? How do you know what I know Carver? You can still like a character without lying about what they can, and can't do. This is something that you are apparently incapable of doing with the way that you constantly misrepresent everything. Go work on yourself before pointing fingers.

Me lying or providing proof that you fail to accept? You haven't posted a single shed of proof backing any of your claims, nothing and you never do. Looks like you Google all of your material. You ignore evidence, try your hardest to twist things to fit your argument. When people provide you scans, you ask for more. Provide you more and it still isn't good enough for you. Why give someone like you proof of anything when you are going to ignore it? You need to report yourself. I have an unlimited source of Hulk comics. I can PM you 10 a day if you want just to get you started. Let me know.

Lol ^ cat fight

Originally posted by carver9
Me lying or providing proof that you fail to accept? You haven't posted a single shed of proof backing any of your claims, nothing and you never do. Looks like you Google all of your material. You ignore evidence, try your hardest to twist things to fit your argument. When people provide you scans, you ask for more. Provide you more and it still isn't good enough for you. Why give someone like you proof of anything when you are going to ignore it? You need to report yourself. I have an unlimited source of Hulk comics. I can PM you 10 a day if you want just to get you started. Let me know.

What does this have to do with you knowing what I know? i don't have to post scans carver you do, and even when you do, you misrepresent everything. You never show the entire thing, and when you do, you are often caught lying.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Sigh Like you didn't know he'd show up.

Carver was here before 98% of us and will be the last one when the forum completely goes to shit