RotS Anakin vs SWTOR Lord Scourge

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FreshestSlice
Force
Sabers
All out

Battle takes place in the Jedi Temple Ruins circa-TOR.

EDIT: Wrong forum

NewGuy01
Anakin solidly.

S_W_LeGenD
Emperor's Wrath, IMO

FreshestSlice
Hmmm, reasoning? From both of you really.

Skybreaker
Skywalker's domination of Dooku >>> Scourge's feats.

Nephthys
Nah. I think this is easily a close fight. Scourge terrified the Dark Council and has killed over a thousand powerful opponents, he's up to snuff. Revan himself remarked that Scourge had immense potential power.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah. I think this is easily a close fight.

Are you being sarcastic?



So?



So?



So?

Seriously, WTF is "immense potential power" supposed to tell us? It's not useful information, especially when you're comparing him to a guy who has the highest midichlorian count in galactic history.

Nephthys
No.

So the Dark Council is made up of guys who blow up citadels when they fight.

So he has a shitton of combat experience and skill.

Yeah but the difference is that Scourge actually reached his full power, on top of being enhanced by Vitiate's power and biochemical augmentations plus wielding lightsaber resistant armor and a shield generator. Anakin (the guy who got beat up by Cad Bane) isn't taking him easily.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by Nephthys
So the Dark Council is made up of guys who blow up citadels when they fight.


RotS Anakin has collapsed buildings by screaming. I don't think the subjective perception of Scourge by some members of the dark council suggest that Scourge could defeat Skywalker. I think Skywalker's making Tyranus his b*tch is a massively more impressive feat.



Yet, there is no evidence that he has the prodigious talent of Anakin, either in Force potential or skill with a lightsaber.



Unquantified augmentations aside, you still haven't given Scourge any feats or accolades that match Anakin's, aside from terrifying some dark council members and being very old.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Skybreaker
RotS Anakin has collapsed buildings by screaming. I don't think the subjective perception of Scourge by some members of the dark council suggest that Scourge could defeat Skywalker. I think Skywalker's making Tyranus his b*tch is a massively more impressive feat.

Buildings that were hit by ricocheting blaster fire enough for Dooku to wonder if they collapsed everything instead of him. Also Force Screams are involuntary displays of power.

Skywalker beating Tyranus came from a state of power he hadn't achieved before or after and is a very high end feat for him.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yet, there is no evidence that he has the prodigious talent of Anakin, either in Force potential or skill with a lightsaber.

Scourge was a prodigious enough duelist that his own lightsaber instructors feared to face him at the academy and was a Juyo master by the time he was like, 25 (on top of being a master of Soresu and Ataru). And he defeated the leader of the Imperial Guard in a duel, and they're basically the best trained non-force sensitives in existence, even better than Mandalorians. Add 300 years worth of training and combat experience and over a thousand victories to that and he's obviously a more masterful duelist than Anakin is.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Unquantified augmentations aside, you still haven't given Scourge any feats or accolades that match Anakin's, aside from terrifying some dark council members and being very old.

I didn't say he matched Anakin, just that he would give him a good fight. And you can call his amps unquantified, but remember that just a portion of Vitiate's power turned non-force sensitives into incredibly powerful Children of the Emperor.

Also Anakin has a lot of rage that Scourge can draw upon to grow more powerful, as is his innate ability to do so. So that's another amp for Scourge.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by Nephthys
Buildings that were hit by ricocheting blaster fire enough for Dooku to wonder if they collapsed everything instead of him. Also Force Screams are involuntary displays of power.


Yeah, that's kind of the point. Skywalker can do it basically involuntarily. But I don't know what particular feats of the dark council members you are referring to, so I can't exactly frame my reply.



Even before he went in the zone, Dooku describes himself as being overwhelmed by Skywalker's power. That's still a greater feat than anything Scourge has ever shown.



Scaring some unnamed lightsaber instructors doesn't really impress me, Neph. Anakin made the temple battlemaster his b*tch while choking his padawan with his other hand.



Yeah, let's pretend that this puts him on Anakin's level now. There is nothing to suggest that Scourge's full potential has anything on the level of power Anakin has achieved by RotS. If he really had as much potential as you think he did, somebody would have noticed (and Revan's vague complimentary statements aren't what you would be looking for). Yet Scourge is still an insignificant sith by the start of the novel, with no indication that he, even at his strongest, would match one of the most powerful Jedi in galactic history.



So?



Is he? 300 years of training and combat experience may appear to be much, but unless if he's ever taken on a foe of Anakin's level, he would have run into the law of diminishing returns long ago. He may not even claim the same level of useful experience as an Anakin that regularly takes on opponents at or above his own level, instead of picking on dark council members at times and circumstances of his own choosing.



Anakin isn't going to be able to toy with him, but I don't know what you mean exactly by "good fight".



Oh come on, Neph. You respond to accusations of not quantifying things by using the phrase "incredibly powerful"? roll eyes (sarcastic)



Anakin doesn't normally use the DS when he fights. If he does actually go into the Zone as he does against Dooku, which isn't exactly the "rage" that Scourge would be able to draw upon, Scourge is dead, amp or no.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, that's kind of the point. Skywalker can do it basically involuntarily. But I don't know what particular feats of the dark council members you are referring to, so I can't exactly frame my reply.

Their feats are that they fought and their fight destroyed the Imperial Citadel. But plenty of other Dark Council members have shown themselves to be immense badasses on par with Maul or Dooku. Or even higher in some cases. Scourge's job was to police them and kill them if they got too uppity.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Even before he went in the zone, Dooku describes himself as being overwhelmed by Skywalker's power. That's still a greater feat than anything Scourge has ever shown.

Skywalker was getting steadily more into the zone as the fight progressed.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Scaring some unnamed lightsaber instructors doesn't really impress me, Neph. Anakin made the temple battlemaster his b*tch while choking his padawan with his other hand.

erm

Of course that doesn't compare to Anakin, I'm just establishing what Scourges skills were like over 300 years before his peak. You stated that Anakin was a naturally gifted swordsman who's natural talent could surpass Scourge's massive experience and training advantage, so I established that Scourge was also a prodigiously talented swordsman who surpassed his own instructors in his youth, who then went on to get much much much more skilled.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, let's pretend that this puts him on Anakin's level now. There is nothing to suggest that Scourge's full potential has anything on the level of power Anakin has achieved by RotS. If he really had as much potential as you think he did, somebody would have noticed (and Revan's vague complimentary statements aren't what you would be looking for). Yet Scourge is still an insignificant sith by the start of the novel, with no indication that he, even at his strongest, would match one of the most powerful Jedi in galactic history.

Don't be stupid. See my above response. I'm merely pointing out that Scourge was able to become a high level master of 3 lightsaber forms in around 30 years. Give him an extra 300 years on top of that and how far do you think he will have developed his skills? So I'm not arguing that puts him on Anakin's level now, I'm arguing that it indicates that he could easily surpass Anakin's level in 300 years.

And someone did notice Scourge's potential. That's why a freaking Dark Council member handpicked him as her right hand, explicitly stating that it was because of his immense potential, which Revan merely backed up. Everything that's established about him in Revan is Scourge miles from achieving his pinnacle as seen in Swtor. Not just in skill and power but with his amps as well.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
So?

So that's a good skill feat? Keep up. roll eyes (sarcastic)

This is in Revan btw, not Swtor.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Is he? 300 years of training and combat experience may appear to be much, but unless if he's ever taken on a foe of Anakin's level, he would have run into the law of diminishing returns long ago. He may not even claim the same level of useful experience as an Anakin that regularly takes on opponents at or above his own level, instead of picking on dark council members at times and circumstances of his own choosing.

Sure, maybe after he'd completely mastered every lightsaber form and reached the limit of what experience can give you.

.... Which obviously would make him a more skilled duelist than Anakin. Hence my point.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Anakin isn't going to be able to toy with him, but I don't know what you mean exactly by "good fight".

Well what would you call a good fight? Not being overpowered by his TK and fighting him for a good period of time in sabers is what I'd say.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Oh come on, Neph. You respond to accusations of not quantifying things by using the phrase "incredibly powerful"? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Children of the Emperor were tough fights even for the Barsen'thor. Who slaps her way through house-sized blast doors and fights Ancient Sith Lords channeling power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. Imperial Guardsmen were also amped by Vitiate's presence to the point where a being of Revan's power couldn't effect them with his TK.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Anakin doesn't normally use the DS when he fights. If he does actually go into the Zone as he does against Dooku, which isn't exactly the "rage" that Scourge would be able to draw upon, Scourge is dead, amp or no.

He does still have a lot of anger and frustration, he just doesn't draw on them.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by Nephthys
Their feats are that they fought and their fight destroyed the Imperial Citadel.

Until you provide me with more substantial details, I'm going to take your description at face value and question the significance of an entire fight destroying a citadel. Just how many applications of the Force does this involve?



I do not think it's been established that Scourge is more powerful than the upper echelons of the dark council. Skywalker, mind you, is substantially more powerful than all but two members of the council, both of which are anomalously powerful in the history of the order.



So then I do not see why he'll be weaker when he's fighting Scourge. That final peak, after Dooku's last taunt, may be exceptional, but Anakin giving him hell beforehand is not.



What I'm pointing out is that there's nothing to suggest that Scourge is talented to the point of ever having a ceiling high enough to match the level of RotS Anakin. The fact that he can scare some lightsaber instructors is not impressive in this context at all. Most people who are more powerful than RotS Anakin at their peak are more powerful than Scourge is back at his age.



Maul has him beat with that. Again, nobody here is denying that Scourge is prodigiously talented; the question is whether he is so prodigiously talented that his ceiling is higher than RotS Anakin's. How old is Scourge in the novel; 30? 40? Mace Windu by RotS is somewhat stronger than Anakin. He was more powerful than Scourge at his age.





And I'm arguing that there is no guarantee of this, firstly because everyone hits a limit, and secondly because while Scourge has eliminated "thousands" of enemies, there's no indication that he's had to regularly contend with being on Skywalker's level. That he sporadically is sent to deal with some dark council members, and of course always has the opportunity to fight on his own terms, suggests that the raw number of years of experience he's had does not necessarily translate into immense progress.



OK? Obi Wan was recognized by Qui Gon as having immense potential, but he never reached the level of RotS Anakin. His ceiling wasn't high enough, and you've given no indication that Scourge's is either. He simply isn't really that powerful for his age compared to those who do surpass RotS Anakin at their peaks. Sure, some people have steep learning curves, but given what we know, there's no indication that Scourge is "prodigiously" powerful to the level of, say, Windu or Bane, examples of two people who do surpass Anakin at their peaks.




Amps I'll give you; I've no idea how good they are, but they presumably do some job to close the gap. Let's not pretend that Scourge has actually surpassed Anakin, as you will occasionally suggest and then renege on.



So he beat some non-force sensitives that are apparently very skilled?



Yeah, I've read the novel. You go through a lot of trouble to demonstrate that Scourge is powerful; nobody is denying that. But Dooku was pretty f*cking powerful too and look what happened to him.



Scourge's ceiling doesn't necessarily surpass RotS Anakin. Exar Kun in his prime may surpass Anakin in the Force and sort-of approach him in sabers; at Scourge's age he is far, far more powerful. Your only option is to suggest that Scourge is unusually slow in developing his abilities.



Was Vodo a more skilled duelist than Exar Kun because he was 600 years of age?



OK, I'll concede that Scourge will give Anakin a good fight. But he will lose.



Can't Vitiate control how much amping he gives to his minions? How can you say how much he is boosting Scourge? We're presumably not talking about a permanent boost; that would not really be an amp at all, any more than just training someone.



He will if Scourge begins to win. But that's not going to happen.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Skywalker's domination of Dooku >>> Scourge's feats.

Nephthys
Skywalker dominating Dooku is > or = to Yoda, so don't expect me to take it as a serious representation of his abilities.

FreshestSlice
Yoda did that on a nexus. Nowhere near the same.

Nephthys
Huh?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Until you provide me with more substantial details, I'm going to take your description at face value and question the significance of an entire fight destroying a citadel. Just how many applications of the Force does this involve?

"The original Citadel mimicked the designs of Korriban's Sith Academy and the Great Citadel on Ziost, but it was destroyed four hundred years ago when two members of the Dark Council fought an ancient Sith duel, called the Kaggath, on its grounds. The duel was a draw, and both of the combatants were executed by the remaining Dark Council members, who oversaw the rebuilding of the Citadel in its current form." - Swtor Codex "The Citadel".

That's all the details.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
I do not think it's been established that Scourge is more powerful than the upper echelons of the dark council. Skywalker, mind you, is substantially more powerful than all but two members of the council, both of which are anomalously powerful in the history of the order.

Lol. Skywalker isn't substantially more powerful than all but two of them. Nox, Jadus, Baras, Marr, Thanaton, Nyriss, Soverus, Qalar, Victun, Ekkage and a few others are as powerful, more powerful or approaching him in power. But anyway, Scourge's job was to police the Dark Council, so I'd say he's likely more powerful than most of them.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
So then I do not see why he'll be weaker when he's fighting Scourge. That final peak, after Dooku's last taunt, may be exceptional, but Anakin giving him hell beforehand is not.

It's interesting you mention Dooku's taunt, because I could definitely see Scourge utilising Dun Moch against Anakin. His immense age has made him preternaturally good at analyzing people's weaknesses:

"Centuries spent watching his fellow Sith Lords rise and fall has given Lord Scourge a unique perspective on people. He can analyze someone's flaws after only brief observation, and freely shares his perceptions (whether they're wanted or not)."

Anakin shouldn't be a tough case for him to crack.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
What I'm pointing out is that there's nothing to suggest that Scourge is talented to the point of ever having a ceiling high enough to match the level of RotS Anakin. The fact that he can scare some lightsaber instructors is not impressive in this context at all. Most people who are more powerful than RotS Anakin at their peak are more powerful than Scourge is back at his age.

Well that's silly. Since even if he isn't quite as talented as Anakin, he still is incredibly talented and had vastly more time to develop his talent than him. That "ceiling" you point to, is still one where Scourge has mastered every lightsaber form to the peak that his ability allows and become as experienced as he is able to become in combat. And you seriously haven't established anything suggesting than Anakin is better than that. Anakin didn't beat Dooku through skill, he beat him through his overwhelming power. So don't point to that either.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Maul has him beat with that. Again, nobody here is denying that Scourge is prodigiously talented; the question is whether he is so prodigiously talented that his ceiling is higher than RotS Anakin's. How old is Scourge in the novel; 30? 40? Mace Windu by RotS is somewhat stronger than Anakin. He was more powerful than Scourge at his age.

Well Scourge has Maul beat in that he's had 10 times the amount of time to train than him. So even if Maul (and Anakin) progressed quicker than Scourge did, he had a shitton more time to progress with swordsmanship than them. That's the point. Scourge has both natural talent and over 10x as much time to improve than any of the guy's you mentioned.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
And I'm arguing that there is no guarantee of this, firstly because everyone hits a limit, and secondly because while Scourge has eliminated "thousands" of enemies, there's no indication that he's had to regularly contend with being on Skywalker's level. That he sporadically is sent to deal with some dark council members, and of course always has the opportunity to fight on his own terms, suggests that the raw number of years of experience he's had does not necessarily translate into immense progress.

And theres absolutely no indication that Scourge was "limited" to below what Anakin achieved in 15 ****ing years. You are really, really pushing it with Skywalkers talent.

Also theres no indication that he fought on his own terms all the time. His tactics seen in TOR were simply walking up to his opponents stronghold and fighting through and killing them. He's an assassin who doesn't use stealth.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
OK? Obi Wan was recognized by Qui Gon as having immense potential, but he never reached the level of RotS Anakin. His ceiling wasn't high enough, and you've given no indication that Scourge's is either. He simply isn't really that powerful for his age compared to those who do surpass RotS Anakin at their peaks. Sure, some people have steep learning curves, but given what we know, there's no indication that Scourge is "prodigiously" powerful to the level of, say, Windu or Bane, examples of two people who do surpass Anakin at their peaks.

Didn't Qui Gon say that when picking Obi-Wan as an apprentice? The difference is that when Nyriss and Revan said they felt Scourge's immense potential, Scourge was already one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire. The fact that he already was at a very high level and apparently had a lot further he could grow to, is very impressive to me. When coupled with his amps, skills and equipment, I think he's an incredibly potent fighter who definitely on or above Anakin's level.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Amps I'll give you; I've no idea how good they are, but they presumably do some job to close the gap. Let's not pretend that Scourge has actually surpassed Anakin, as you will occasionally suggest and then renege on.

Ok, I'll come out and say that I think Scourge did surpass Anakin, yes. I think you really overestimate Skywalker and that he's surpassed by quite a few TOR characters, Scourge included. He wins here imo.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
So he beat some non-force sensitives that are apparently very skilled?

Yes. Imperial Guardsmen as so skilled than Sith Lords lay down their weapons and surrender to execution rather than fight them. Scourge beat their leader in a duel.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, I've read the novel. You go through a lot of trouble to demonstrate that Scourge is powerful; nobody is denying that. But Dooku was pretty f*cking powerful too and look what happened to him.

Scourge won't be as easily physically overpowered as Dooku was. And there's no Sidious to drive Anakin into his peak status. Scourge can engage and Dun Moch Anakin into fumbling without him bouncing back.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Scourge's ceiling doesn't necessarily surpass RotS Anakin. Exar Kun in his prime may surpass Anakin in the Force and sort-of approach him in sabers; at Scourge's age he is far, far more powerful. Your only option is to suggest that Scourge is unusually slow in developing his abilities.

But we know that Scourge isn't unusually slow in developing his skills, since as I established he surpassed his own instructors in the academy and was a master of multiple forms by mid-age. All this talk of ceilings is poppycock to suggest the remote chance that Scourge didn't surpass Anakin's skill with a blade.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Was Vodo a more skilled duelist than Exar Kun because he was 600 years of age?

Overall, probably yes. But Vodo could have become weaker with age or rusty with his technique. Scourge was constantly fighting though and preparing to backstab Vitiate.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
OK, I'll concede that Scourge will give Anakin a good fight. But he will lose.

Nah.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Can't Vitiate control how much amping he gives to his minions? How can you say how much he is boosting Scourge? We're presumably not talking about a permanent boost; that would not really be an amp at all, any more than just training someone.

I'm pretty sure it's permanent. It just flat out says that his battle prowess was enhanced by the Emperor. Which doesn't seem to imply any restrictions on the amp.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
He will if Scourge begins to win. But that's not going to happen.

No, he won't. Anakin has been losing tons of times and not gone Zonakin.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by Nephthys
"The original Citadel mimicked the designs of Korriban's Sith Academy and the Great Citadel on Ziost, but it was destroyed four hundred years ago when two members of the Dark Council fought an ancient Sith duel, called the Kaggath, on its grounds. The duel was a draw, and both of the combatants were executed by the remaining Dark Council members, who oversaw the rebuilding of the Citadel in its current form." - Swtor Codex "The Citadel".

That's all the details.


...seriously? Like, it isn't even clarified that the duel is what literally destroyed the citadel, and not the council. Either way, it's a pretty uselessly vague feat. I'm kind of disappointed. I was expecting a video or something.



...um, yes, he is. The assortment of the most powerful Jedi after Obi Wan lasted about 8 seconds against Palpatine. There's a realllyyyy big gap between the Big Four/Obi Wan and everybody else.



But being more powerful than most members of the Dark Council is hardly an accolade you can attribute to Scourge but not to Anakin, so I don't see how it establishes that Scourge > Skywalker.



Anakin is easy to manipulate in particular periods of emotional distress. Dooku's attempt backfired and led to his decapitation. Palpatine pulled it off over a decade of subtle manipulation. Let's not pretend that Scourge can just say a few words and Anakin will try to summersault over him.



It's not just a matter of skill or power, it is a combination of both. You have not demonstrated that Scourge can ever match Anakin's power. You have suggested that Scourge can develop a higher level of skill than Skywalker because he's lived a long time. I beg to differ. He may have time to memorize a larger array of movements, but there is a level of natural talent to this as well; Skywalker is almost as prodigiously gifted with a blade as he is with the Force, and there's no indication that Scourge will ever surpass him. That reaches a limit too. I would probably never surpass Tom Brady as a quarterback no matter how long I trained or how long I stay healthy, because there comes a point where talent beats hard work.

Let me put it this way; Dooku and Cin Drallig have been training the lightsaber their whole lives, day and night, and at some point there reaches a limit to how much you can learn and how many times you can perfect your craft (Dooku is already described as a "consummate" duelist). Your reflexes reach a limit; the perfect angle and execution of your moves reach a limit, and the number of moves you can memorize reaches a limit. And guess what? Both were annihilated by Anakin. Now, Skywalker may not have the same level of technical mastery of the blade as either, but his was good enough that the deficiency was overcome by his ridiculous reserves of Force power. I sense the same happening against Scourge. He's never suggested to have the talent of a Dooku or even a Bondara.



No, I'm really not. There are a small handful of people in all of galactic history that can take Anakin Skywalker in a lightsaber duel, and all of them demonstrated far greater natural talent than Scourge ever did. Scourge was very good and could intimidate his lightsaber instructors; Darth Maul was "one of the deadliest sith apprentices of all time" when he was hardly half of Scourge's age, and he can't defeat Anakin.




Yes, because he's confident that he's stronger than them. Anakin frequently has to fight people more powerful than him, get his ass kicked, and grow stronger.



Yes, and Obi Wan is more powerful than Scourge is at his age, and he is still never as powerful as this Anakin.



Um, no, he wasn't. He doubted his own ability to take on any of the dark council, even the old and frail ones. Much unlike Darth Maul, who was already more powerful than anyone on the council but Yoda and possibly Mace, and anyone else in the Order except Dooku, by the time he was in his 20s.



Scourge has absolutely no feats to suggest this. Anakin's fight against Dooku >>>>> Scourge losing to the Hero.



Just explain to me how this can quantifiably establish that Scourge at full power > Anakin. You just throw out a feat in a vacuum for whatever reason.



He also doesn't have half the demonstrated affinity with a blade or strength in the Force. Dooku's accolades speak for themselves, as does his performance against Master Yoda.



No, Dooku tried that, and look what happened to him. And what do you mean by Sidious driving Anakin?



Concession accepted. Scourge is developing normally, and by 30-40 he is significantly weaker than everybody who would eventually surpass RotS Anakin was at that age. He never surpasses Anakin, because age can only do you so much good.



roll eyes (sarcastic) That was a f*cking rhetorical question. There is no indication that Vodo at 600 years old was ever at Exar Kun's level with a blade. There is no indication that Vodo was more skilled than Luke Skywalker just because he'd been alive for a long time. You, living 500 years, would never be as intelligent as Einstein; this being said not at all to insult, but just to try to get you to accept that abilities hit a limit.



So we have Scourge's potential + an amp. No idea what that amp is. It can't be too large, because Vitiate would never want Scourge to ever have the potential to threaten himself.



Even without the Zone, Anakin is described in the RotS novelization to be "the strongest. the fastest." Jedi of his generation, "maybe any generation." And even if you consider this hyperbole, we need to understand that, even having not even reached half of his potential, Anakin Skywalker is abnormally powerful in the history of the galaxy, and Scourge being able to take out some members of a dark council is not going to help him here.

NewGuy01
What? When Nox and Thanaton fought, they barely cracked the floor of the Council Chamber, and they're two of the DC's finest. erm

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
What? When Nox and Thanaton fought, they barely cracked the floor of the Council Chamber, and they're two of the DC's finest. erm
Nephthys was referring to the duel between Darth Victun and Darth Qalar which became so violent that it resulted in destruction of the setting where it took place (i.e. the 1st Citadel of Dromund Kaas).

carthage
Anakin takes this comfortably

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