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The planet Apokolips and all its major denizens (Darkseid, Desaad, ect) learn that Gah Lak Tus has targeted them and is on its way to destroy their world...

Apokolips combined has one week to prepare for Gah Lak Tus...

As with Earth, Gah Lak Tus's Silver Surfers have been secretly converting significant portions of the population to accept death (so that they wont resist when Gah Lak Tus arrives to destroy them) for several years...

Who wins?

Ahahaha, accept death....

Apokolips (well, pre-DCnU) was ALL about death.

The Silver Surfers would have been converted themselves. To die for Darkseid.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ahahaha, accept death....

Apokolips (well, pre-DCnU) was ALL about death.

The Silver Surfers would have been converted themselves. To die for Darkseid.

In this case though, parademons and everyone else that was successfully converted would not fight back or offer any resistance to Gah Lak Tus...and that would be very bad for any world.

For the purpose of this thread, 20% of Apokolips population has been successfully converted...

None of the planets major denizens has been converted however...

The low-level parademons might have significant converts amongst them, IF successful.

But ultimately, Darkseid wins. You're talking about a highly militarised planet that's constantly at war, unifed under one banner, and willing to do whatever it takes.

Who also have God tech.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The low-level parademons might have significant converts amongst them, IF successful.

But ultimately, Darkseid wins.

A Big Bang was needed to repell Gah Lak Tus...

How does Darkseid solo?

Gah Lak Tus was distracted by Jean and Charles. Who aren't on Darkseid's TP level.

The Big Bang Gun, whilst impressive, showed that destroying about 20% of the Gah Lak Tus entity is enough to drive him off.

Which Apokolips are you using? Am assuming pre-DCnU mainly because Apokolips doesn't have that many feats in the DCnU so far, but either would win and I can make arguments for both.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Gah Lak Tus was distracted by Jean and Charles. Who aren't on Darkseid's TP level.

The Big Bang Gun, whilst impressive, showed that destroying about 20% of the Gah Lak Tus entity is enough to drive him off.

Which Apokolips are you using? Am assuming pre-DCnU mainly because Apokolips doesn't have that many feats in the DCnU so far, but either would win and I can make arguments for both.

It wasnt just Jean and Charles...

It was Earth combined amped by Shield technology...

...And?

But yeah, before I go further, pre or post DCnU?

And yes, this is pre DCuN Apokolips...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
It wasnt just Jean and Charles...

It was Earth combined amped by Shield technology...

Ok.

Darkseid, using TP, mind-controlled 3 billion Daxamites. AND it's canon, even post-Crisis.

That's...above what I've seen Ultimate Xavier/Jean do, even when amped.

He can resurrect any of the 80% of parademons who die (which, considering it is a military planet, is a LOT):
http://i.imgur.com/GUQJ64a.jpg

He could BFR large swathes of the swarm using Boom Tubes, or just casually waving his hands.

The Omega Sanction

Broadcasting of mind-eating computer codes which have destroyed an alternate future Amazo.

And of course, the Promethean Giants. The Gah Lak Tus swarm was what, 160,000 km long? That giant is about to hold the EARTH in his hand. And he belongs to Darkseid:
http://i.imgur.com/b7uozxi.jpg

All of that pales compared to the Big Bang that was needed to repel Gah Lak Tus; we are talking about a universal creating/destroying attack...

Inaddition Gah Lak Tus defeated what was arguably 1 billion Low Heralds in just a few minutes; Darkseid has been defeated by far, far, far less...

Apokolips wins

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
All of that pales compared to the Big Bang that was needed to repel Gah Lak Tus; we are talking about a universal creating/destroying attack...

Inaddition Gah Lak Tus defeated what was arguably 1 billion Low Heralds in just a few minutes; Darkseid has been defeated by far, far, far less...

So Apokolips is not, as per forum rules, fighting to the best of its abilities?

It was the Big Bang of an infant universe, but OK.

Lol. Gah Lak Tus was a machine swarm that did nothing else but move and feed. The Promethean Giant alone would crush it in its hands. Gah Lak Tus hated expending energy - it was incredibly lazy (hence the Surfers). When large sections of it are being Boom-Tubed away (and considering Darkseid casually boomtubes entire planets....) Gah Lak Tus would die.

Those billion no-name heralds are not THREE billion Daxamites at pre-Crisis levels, btw.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Apokolips wins

Based on what?

Does Apokolips (or rather its Denizens) have any feats comparable in power to the Ultimate version of the Ultimate Nullifier?

Lol. You are thinking too one-dimensionally.

What's stopping Darkseid from using his full size? S'ivaa was destroying planets with his fingers at full size, and all New Gods are at that level.

The Ultimate Nullifier is great. Does it have the feats of the Omega Anction?

Can the Ultimate Nullifier BFR large sections of the Gah LakTus entiity (effectively punching holes in the swarm)?

Could Ultimate Earth move around like Apokolips? The swarm moves at speeds less than the speed of light, because it was conserving energy. What if it has to chase its prey? Apokolips could bounce around the galaxy, until it runs out of energy.

All these are valid tactics that Ultimate Marvel Earth couldn't do. Hence, big gun that goes boom. Impressive, sure. But
don't be suckered into thinking it's the only way.

Galactus wins. Darkseid and his planet couldn't even stop Doomsday.

Originally posted by carver9
Galactus wins. Darkseid and his planet couldn't even stop Doomsday.
I
This is exactly what I was thinking; thats why I gave Apokolips a week prep to help out a bit...

what defense do they have against BFR?

This is what a world looks like to a New God. Note the little fireballs.

Darkseid on his own would chew the Gah Lak Tus swarm up and spit it out...accidentally.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3346398-3144096-newgods10-12.jpg

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Based on what?

Does Apokolips (or rather its Denizens) have any feats comparable in power to the Ultimate version of the Ultimate Nullifier? Apokolips wins on basis of how you say Galactus wins.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. You are thinking too one-dimensionally.

What's stopping Darkseid from using his full size? S'ivaa was destroying planets with his fingers at full size, and all New Gods are at that level.

The Ultimate Nullifier is great. Does it have the feats of the Omega Anction?

Can the Ultimate Nullifier BFR large sections of the Gah LakTus entiity (effectively punching holes in the swarm)?

Could Ultimate Earth move around like Apokolips? The swarm moves at speeds less than the speed of light, because it was conserving energy. What if it has to chase its prey? Apokolips could bounce around the galaxy, until it runs out of energy.

All these are valid tactics that Ultimate Marvel Earth couldn't do. Hence, big gun that goes boom. Impressive, sure. But
don't be suckered into thinking it's the only way.

Theoretically you are correct, but heres my issue with those tactics; Gah Lak Tus has faced countless civilizations...up until the UN, nothing worked...nothing could stop Gah Lak Tus.

Its just difficult for me to imagine an entity this powerful being beaten by BFR...surely that tactic was tried and failed against Galactus at some point.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Apokolips wins on basis of how you say Galactus wins.

I think Gah Lak Tus simply overwhelms Apokolips and all its defenses; its too powerful and they dont have Reed Richards to bail them out...

Are you suggesting that Apokolips can overwhelm Gah Lak Tus when it couldnt handle Doomsday?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I think Gah Lak Tus simply overwhelms Apokolips and all its defenses; its too powerful and they dont have Reed Richards to bail them out...

Are you suggesting that Apokolips can overwhelm Gah Lak Tus when it couldnt handle Doomsday? so the only showing that can be used is the one involving DD? Lol Apokolips didn't use all it's resources.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
so the only showing that can be used is the one involving DD? Lol Apokolips didn't use all it's resources.

So I ask you again, does Apokolips have any feats suggesting it can match the power of a Big Bang?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Theoretically you are correct, but heres my issue with those tactics; Gah Lak Tus has faced countless civilizations...up until the UN, nothing worked...nothing could stop Gah Lak Tus.

Its just difficult for me to imagine an entity this powerful being beaten by BFR...surely that tactic was tried and failed against Galactus at some point.

So....you're using the very definition of a no-limits fallacy? It wasn't shown, but it must have been used, and failed?

By that logic, New Genesis, who has been at war with Apokolips for countless eons, MUST have used a mechanical swarm to attack Apokolips AT SOME POINT. The fact that Apokolips is still standing shows that it must have failed.

It wasn't THAT powerful. It was just numerous. That's all. What did the ships do? What were their durability limits? Speed? Weaponry? None of this was shown.

What we DO know, is that they traveled VERY slowly (by interstellar standards) and preferred to use the Silver Surfers to weaken the population, so that they didn't have to fight. They were lazy, and were trying to conserve energy. Which means that they are not that durable.

We also know the Ultimate Universe, on average, scaled their power levels back when compared to the 616 (and thus, by implication, the DC) universes. A bit fallacious, I admit, but someone like the Spectre or one of the top dogs in DC would've wrecked shop in the Ultimate U.

Also, PIS is not allowed on the forums. So favouring a big gun just because it was the only one that was shown is not that great an argument to stand on.

I think you need to reword the OP, LoM.

'Does Apokolips have a big gun which can replicate the energy output of Reeds' Ultimate Nullifier'.

THAT is what you are really asking. Because your original question, who wins in a fight, is pretty much one-sided in Apokolips' favour.

With thanks to KM, and One Angry Scot who showed me the way:

Darkseid respect thread:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=480407&highlight=darkseid+forumid%3A98

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So....you're using the very definition of a no-limits fallacy? It wasn't shown, but it must have been used, and failed?

By that logic, New Genesis, who has been at war with Apokolips for countless eons, MUST have used a mechanical swarm to attack Apokolips AT SOME POINT. The fact that Apokolips is still standing shows that it must have failed.

It wasn't THAT powerful. It was just numerous. That's all. What did the ships do? What were their durability limits? Speed? Weaponry? None of this was shown.

What we DO know, is that they traveled VERY slowly (by interstellar standards) and preferred to use the Silver Surfers to weaken the population, so that they didn't have to fight. They were lazy, and were trying to conserve energy. Which means that they are not that durable.

We also know the Ultimate Universe, on average, scaled their power levels back when compared to the 616 (and thus, by implication, the DC) universes. A bit fallacious, I admit, but someone like the Spectre or one of the top dogs in DC would've wrecked shop in the Ultimate U.

Also, PIS is not allowed on the forums. So favouring a big gun just because it was the only one that was shown is not that great an argument to stand on.

Are you sure you read the Ultimate Galactus trilogy? After some of the things you've said in this thread makes me doubt it...

1st you wrongly state that Jean and Charles were able to stun Gah Lak Tus when it took far, far, more than just them...

Now you are stating that Gah Lak Tus was just a numerous swarm of robots when its clearly stated in the story that its more than just that...

I am smelling trolling...

Anyway, now I shall counter some of your "points..."


As pertains the no limits fallacy, if you read the story you'd know that Gah Lk Tus has faced countless civilizations over the course of millions of years...

As per the story, each civilization presented their own unique strategy for dealing with Gah Lak Tus (and they all typically had many, many, of years of prep); all of which failed...

Given the time span, I think this is a rare situation where the "no limits fallacy" actually accurately describes the characters accomplishments; its heavily implied that countless strategies have been tried against Gah Lak Tus and all of them failed...

As a result I dont think its a stretch at all to assume that BFR has been attempted against Gah Lak Tus at some point and was unsuccessful (afterall its not like BFR is hard to think up)...


Also you state that Gah Lak Tus "wasnt THAT powerful" yet you admit that you have no showings of durability, speed, and firepower to back that claim up...

Cant you see the contradiction here?

The fact of the matter is that, as per the story, ONLY a Big Bang proved capable of driving it off; countless other attempts failed...

That speaks volumes of how powerful the writer of the story intended Gah Lak Tus to be...


As pertains Darkseid beating Gah LAK Tus with his Omega powers, those same powers FAILED to stop Doomsday; I cant emphasize this point enough (and thats one of the more modern significant showings for pre DCuN Apokolips, so this point is very valid)...

Darkseid couldnt stop Doomsday with his Omega powers; how in the hell is it then supposed to stop something that required a Big Bang to stop?

The answer is that Darkseid would fail horribly against Gah Lak Tus with his Omega powers...


Also you state that because Gah Lak Tus is "lazy" its not that powerful...

Thats terrible logic...

616 Galactus attempts to conserve power whenever possible and hes very powerful...

Enough with bad logic dude...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Are you sure you read the Ultimate Galactus trilogy? After some of the things you've said in this thread makes me doubt it...

Yup, I did.


OK, it took the world. The majority of which were no-names, amped by undefined tech. I underplayed it.


OK, what else could it do? Post scans that showed it was more than just a swarm of robots. I am willing to be corrected.




So...you have nothing to counter it, except 'well, it MUST have been tried!' Come back when you have a better counter.


No contradiction. I saw no showings showing that they were that powerful, therefore, they weren't. If you want to make up powers/abilities that weren't shown, be my guest. If you assert that they were that fast/durable, by all means, showcase their durability/speed etc. I have provided scans. You have provided....none.


Yes, as per the story. As, say, the plot required it. So....PIS.


Wait, lol. So when the plot requires nothing short of the Big Bang is able to stop the baddie, you jizz all over it; but when nothing short of the Big Crunch at the end of time is able to stop the baddie (in this case, Doomsday), you say....the tactics up to that point are weak??

By that logic, I will turn around and say the entire Ultimate U is weak compared to DC. All the stuff that was tried against Gah Lak Tus? Weaksauce compared to mainstream 616 Marvel/DCU.



Lol. As bad as my logic may be, you still haven't countered my BFR apart from..well...well...it MUST have been tried!! Despite 0 showings of this, despite 0 references of this, it was tried, damn you, and it failed, so nyahh!!

Darkseid BFRs the swarm. There are other tactics, of course (Metron still has the FULL Worlogog, and has worked with Darkseid in the past), but this is the most fun for now, until you come up with a solid counter beyond - Boom tubes totally exist in Ultimate Marvel, and they were totally tried, and totally failed!

BFR is an extremely broad tactic. BFR could look like anything from opening a huge magical portal, to throwing your enemy with brute strength, to using Star Trek technology. Each would require a different response to overcome or avoid. If Gah Lak Tus has overcome BFR before (which we don't know), there's no reason that the nonexistant showing would have any bearing on how Gah Lak Tus would fare against a boom tube.

Even if we could assume that BFR was tried before on Gah Lak Tus, there's obviously no way we can assume that a BFR measure specific to DC was tried.

The only way that we could really write off a boom tube is through either arguing that Apokolips wouldn't use one (why? dunno, that's your argument to make), or arguing that Gah Lak Tus has enough power over its own make-up or physical space to negate the attempt... but then, if anything, we have evidence that that's not the case, because it takes Gah Lak Tus f*cking forever to cross galaxies. Presumably, if he could overcome battlefield removal, it wouldn't take him so long to get to the battlefield in the first place, but maybe I'm assuming too much.

Originally posted by Existere
BFR is an extremely broad tactic. BFR could look like anything from opening a huge magical portal, to throwing your enemy with brute strength, to using Star Trek technology. Each would require a different response to overcome or avoid. If Gah Lak Tus has overcome BFR before (which we don't know), there's no reason that the nonexistant showing would have any bearing on how Gah Lak Tus would fare against a boom tube.

Even if we could assume that BFR was tried before on Gah Lak Tus, there's obviously no way we can assume that a BFR measure specific to DC was tried.

The only way that we could really write off a boom tube is through either arguing that Apokolips wouldn't use one (why? dunno, that's your argument to make), or arguing that Gah Lak Tus has enough power over its own make-up or physical space to negate the attempt... but then, if anything, we have evidence that that's not the case, because it takes Gah Lak Tus f*cking forever to cross galaxies. Presumably, if he could overcome battlefield removal, it wouldn't take him so long to get to the battlefield in the first place, but maybe I'm assuming too much.

My sentiments exactly.

Also, we don't even WANT to think about what happens when you access Apokolips without the benefit of a Boom Tube to help readjust your size. I've already posted scans of what happens. Entire worlds are nothing but meatballs to a New God. And the swarm wasn't even planetary in size.

Just had a read through of Ultimate Vision.

The little girl that was made up of toluene blew a big hole in a probe.

So, conventional explosives are enough to harm one.

Moreover, if you remove a prob from the grid, it deactivates.

Yeah, Darkseid soloes.

I like how LoM is stating that the omega beams have failed on doomsday and would fail to work on galactus, but he conveniently left out that they worked on imperiex and anti monitor.

Originally posted by deathslash
I like how LoM is stating that the omega beams have failed on doomsday and would fail to work on galactus, but he conveniently left out that they worked on imperiex and anti monitor.

Um, I am telling the truth you know...the Omega Effect DID fail to stop Doomsday...this is a completely factual statement.

And yes, I believe Ultimate Galactus to be far more powerful than Doomsday and yes I firmly believe that the Omega Effect would fail to stop Gah Lak Tus...

But please dont twist my words; I never stated that the Omega Effect wouldnt "work" on anyone as I am sure there will be some observable effect...I simply dont believe its strong enough to stop Gah Lak Tus based on its inability to stop Doomsday.

Did the Omega Effect stop the Anti Monitor btw?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just had a read through of Ultimate Vision.

The little girl that was made up of toluene blew a big hole in a probe.

So, conventional explosives are enough to harm one.

Moreover, if you remove a prob from the grid, it deactivates.

Yeah, Darkseid soloes.

Now you are definitely trolling...

By that same token, Gah Lak Tus owns street thugs and stairs...

Gah Lak Tus walks through Darkseid like hes not even there...

Originally posted by Existere
BFR is an extremely broad tactic. BFR could look like anything from opening a huge magical portal, to throwing your enemy with brute strength, to using Star Trek technology. Each would require a different response to overcome or avoid. If Gah Lak Tus has overcome BFR before (which we don't know), there's no reason that the nonexistant showing would have any bearing on how Gah Lak Tus would fare against a boom tube.

Even if we could assume that BFR was tried before on Gah Lak Tus, there's obviously no way we can assume that a BFR measure specific to DC was tried.

The only way that we could really write off a boom tube is through either arguing that Apokolips wouldn't use one (why? dunno, that's your argument to make), or arguing that Gah Lak Tus has enough power over its own make-up or physical space to negate the attempt... but then, if anything, we have evidence that that's not the case, because it takes Gah Lak Tus f*cking forever to cross galaxies. Presumably, if he could overcome battlefield removal, it wouldn't take him so long to get to the battlefield in the first place, but maybe I'm assuming too much.

Gah Lak Tus conserves energy and apparently is content to take its times getting from point A to point B (since its technological it doesnt age so time doesnt appear to concern it), but that shouldnt suggest that it cant move really fast when it wants to...

According to the story, Gah Lak Tus got out of our solar system in a hurry after getting hit with the Nullifier...

So yeah, maybe you are assuming too much...

Did anyone catch this week's world's end? Mister miracle said Apokolips isn't a planet, it's a god!

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Gah Lak Tus conserves energy and apparently is content to take its times getting from point A to point B (since its technological it doesnt age so time doesnt appear to concern it), but that shouldnt suggest that it cant move really fast when it wants to...

According to the story, Gah Lak Tus got out of our solar system in a hurry after getting hit with the Nullifier...

So yeah, maybe you are assuming too much...

I.e. blah blah blah, no evidence to counter, just supposition and speculation. No proof then, I see. Or any argument, really, that he can counter BFR like a Boom Tube, or, even, worse, being scattered across time by the Omega Effect.

Here, he casually turns Slo-Bo into a stone statue, AND sends him into the 853rd Century. But of course, your argument is that somebody has tried that before in Ultimate Marvel, right????

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/YJ-055-19.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/YJ-055-22-1.jpg

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Now you are definitely trolling...

By that same token, Gah Lak Tus owns street thugs and stairs...

Gah Lak Tus walks through Darkseid like hes not even there...

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were using averages. Some people on the forum like doing that.

Darkseid has...let's say, 1000 appearances over the years. There was context behind the stairs showing, btw - but of course, you knowing your comics knew that, right?

Out of the 1000 appearances, he has...let's say 10 low showings. That's 1% of his showings.

Gah Lak Tus has.....I'm going to be generous, and say it was two showings (not counting the time it merged with Galactus). One was the Ultimate Nullifier showing, and one was the Dima showing (the little girl packed with explosives). You equate it to the stairs and thugs (despite there being no context, it was just owned by explosives), so that's....50% of his showings being low.

50%...vs 1%. Yeah. Let's be a fair and balanced OP, right?

The alternative is we use forum rules, and use them fighting to the best of their capacity.

Where Apokolips stomps.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Um, I am telling the truth you know...the Omega Effect DID fail to stop Doomsday...this is a completely factual statement.

And yes, I believe Ultimate Galactus to be far more powerful than Doomsday and yes I firmly believe that the Omega Effect would fail to stop Gah Lak Tus...

But please dont twist my words; I never stated that the Omega Effect wouldnt "work" on anyone as I am sure there will be some observable effect...I simply dont believe its strong enough to stop Gah Lak Tus based on its inability to stop Doomsday.

Did the Omega Effect stop the Anti Monitor btw? you are aware that darkseid didn't use the full omega sanction on doomsday right (he only used his force beams on him)? But of course, one of darkseid's lowest showings equates to him at his normal power level. Even if it didn't kill the anti monitor, it extremely weakened him (so the supermen could finish him off).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I.e. blah blah blah, no evidence to counter, just supposition and speculation. No proof then, I see. Or any argument, really, that he can counter BFR like a Boom Tube, or, even, worse, being scattered across time by the Omega Effect.

Here, he casually turns Slo-Bo into a stone statue, AND sends him into the 853rd Century. But of course, your argument is that somebody has tried that before in Ultimate Marvel, right????

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/YJ-055-19.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/YJ-055-22-1.jpg



Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were using averages. Some people on the forum like doing that.

Darkseid has...let's say, 1000 appearances over the years. There was context behind the stairs showing, btw - but of course, you knowing your comics knew that, right?

Out of the 1000 appearances, he has...let's say 10 low showings. That's 1% of his showings.

Gah Lak Tus has.....I'm going to be generous, and say it was two showings (not counting the time it merged with Galactus). One was the Ultimate Nullifier showing, and one was the Dima showing (the little girl packed with explosives). You equate it to the stairs and thugs (despite there being no context, it was just owned by explosives), so that's....50% of his showings being low.

50%...vs 1%. Yeah. Let's be a fair and balanced OP, right?

The alternative is we use forum rules, and use them fighting to the best of their capacity.

Where Apokolips stomps.

Good times.

I still bible thump for Ultimate Gah Lak Tus!

Apokalips for the win.