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First off, I want to premise this by saying that I know GT writers never put this much thought into the SSJ4 transformation... but I did, so I wanted to hear some of your opinions.

At the beginning of GT, Pilaf summoned the Black Star Dragon, and used him to transform Goku into a child. Later on in the series, we were shown that SSJ4 is powerful enough to override a wish from the Black Star Dragon--as evident by Goku turning back into an adult whenever he assumes the form.

So if SSJ4 is powerful enough to override a wish from the most powerful Eternal Dragon in the mythos, does that mean it is powerful enough to undo other wishes(especially from weaker Dragons)? For example, could SSJ4 Goku perma-kill Garlic Jr., even though he was made immortal by Shenron?

I see it as an internal attribute. Not really seeing a reason for him to be able to exert this through his Ki onto others.


Then again, was it stated that his form temperately breaks the wish at all?

I don't think it needs to be stated if we saw it happen. When Goku goes SSJ4, he overrides the wish and transforms into an adult. When he powers down, the wish takes back over and he becomes a child again.

Anyway, I see your point about it being an internal attribute, but the wish is still overridden due to the massive ki SSJ4 produces. If his ki is powerful enough to override a wish from the most powerful Dragon, what's stopping his ki from overriding wishes granted by the weaker Dragons--namely Garlic Jr's immortality..?

I wonder what this says about SS4 Gogeta. mmm

What I mean by not being stated is that maybe he's not actually regaining his adult form, maybe that's just the base state of SS4; Gaining a tall half-ape state just as Oozaru turns all ages into an equally sized giant ape.


It might just be the different ki application. If Goku could send his raw ki through Garlic, like a forced version of giving ki to someone else, then I could see it being possible.

his power is maximum.

Originally posted by BloodRain
What I mean by not being stated is that maybe he's not actually regaining his adult form, maybe that's just the base state of SS4; Gaining a tall half-ape state just as Oozaru turns all ages into an equally sized giant ape. In the words of Yoda: "size matters not." That is to say: when kid Goku transformed into an Oozaru during DB, for example, he didn't transform into an adult by proxy. He was still a child--he just became a giant ape, is all. Conversely, when kid Goku transforms into a SSJ4, he definitely changes into an adult as a 'side effect' of the power he is channeling. ie. he overrides the wish.

Hmm, perhaps Baby's comment about hoping to one day possess power which exceeds that of the Black Star Dragon actually had some merit after all..? mmm

Originally posted by BloodRain
It might just be the different ki application. If Goku could send his raw ki through Garlic, like a forced version of giving ki to someone else, then I could see it being possible.

Argument was going to be about how the only difference for age with Oozaru's was their mentality.. til I remembered the golden ape incident. Then again it could be explained by the rage of both forms doubling up /shrugs


Well he was only one push away from such power.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Well he was only one push away from such power. Makes me wonder if Golden Oozaru Baby could've also bypassed a wish..?

Isn't this the same dragon that was in the Saiyan Saga or is this a different one? If it is a different dragon, what makes it more powerful than the one created by the watcher of earth (asking this for a reason)? By the way, good thread Galan.

Something I've always wondered about SS4 (especially Gogeta): Where the f**k do their clothes come from? mmm

Originally posted by carver9
Isn't this the same dragon that was in the Saiyan Saga or is this a different one? If it is a different dragon, what makes it more powerful than the one created by the watcher of earth (asking this for a reason)? By the way, good thread Galan. The Black Star Dragonballs were created long ago, before Kami originally split from Piccolo. Because of this, they were FAR more powerful than the Dragonballs Kami alone created. That's why the Black Star Dragon can grant absolutely ANY wish(even death wishes), whereas Shenron has very distinct limitations in his wish granting ability.

The power gap between the Dragons can be further noted by the VAST difference in size between them.

The Black Star Dragon's head alone was larger than Kami's lookout:
http://i.imgur.com/G2lE4L6.png

In comparison to that, Shenron was tiny:
http://i.imgur.com/zKVPquQ.png

Originally posted by Galan007
The Black Star Dragonballs were created long ago, before Kami originally split from Piccolo. Because of this, they were FAR more powerful than the Dragonballs Kami alone created. That's why the Black Star Dragon can grant absolutely ANY wish(even death wishes), whereas Shenron has very distinct limitations in his wish granting ability.

The power gap between the Dragons can be further noted by the VAST difference in size between them.

The Black Star Dragon's head alone was larger than Kami's lookout:
http://i.imgur.com/G2lE4L6.png

In comparison to that, Shenron was tiny:
http://i.imgur.com/zKVPquQ.png



Gotcha. The reason I asked is, Kami Dragon balls were helpless against Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa per the Dragons own admission. Their power levels were in the thousands, someone in the trillions or billions, I can see a Dragon, no matter how powerful it is comparable to Kami Dragonballs, failing against that person, especially someone like Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Something I've always wondered about SS4 (especially Gogeta): Where the f**k do their clothes come from? mmm

Matter Manipulation.

Originally posted by carver9
The reason I asked is, Kami Dragon balls were helpless against Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa per the Dragons own admission. Huh?

Originally posted by Galan007
Huh?

IIRC, didn't the Z fighters try to use the balls against Nappa and Vegeta but didn't have the power to stop them?

Yes. Shenron evidently cannot harm beings more powerful than his creator/Kami(PL=220.) However, I think it's extremely obvious that ALL of the Dragons possess a potential for rebirth/restoration that utterly shits on their potential for destruction.

That's why each of the Dragons were capable of resurrecting/repowering/etc. the entire lineup of Z Fighters(of whom outclassed the power of the Dragons' respective creators by an astronomical margin), and even remake entire planets/civilizations from nothingness... Whimsically.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. Shenron evidently cannot harm beings more powerful than his creator/Kami(PL=220.) However, I think it's extremely obvious that ALL of the Dragons possess a potential for rebirth/restoration that utterly shits on their potential for destruction.

That's why each of the Dragons were capable of resurrecting/repowering/etc. the entire lineup of Z Fighters(of whom outclassed the power of the Dragons' respective creators by an astronomical margin), and even remake entire planets/civilizations from nothingness... Whimsically.

Don't think that was ever mentioned about him not being able to harm beings more powerful than his creators. A wish is a wish and I think the Z fighter became more powerful than just a wish...especially a wish taking them out.