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I am asking this because clearly he could be ''so much more''...

8PY-wcY-C0I

5:54

''I was destined to become so much more...''

And we know that Lucas said Sidious shouldn't have lost his apprentice in first place ;



''--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways-''

And lastly, we've learned in SoD that Maul potential was being more powerful than his mother; Talzin.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/-Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-010_zps9c9728e1.jpg

''When Sidious realized Maul's potential he took him from me and trained him as a Sith''

I mean he became considerably more powerful in the clone wars just with in few months, clearly I can't imagine what would he become in 10 years after the period of TPM, could he be a real challenge for his Master ? Or would he be still noticeably inferior to him ?

Intrepid showed me a quote once that at least gave credence to the idea of Maul one day getting up to Sidious's level or something along those lines. I'm not sure if I believe it, but he had somewhat of a lesser potential than Anakin's.

Just the fact that Sidious chose Maul as his apprentice, to one day replace him, shows Maul's potential should at least be somewhere close to Sidious's.

Although how much of that potential he still has after being revived in Tcw is unclear. He was cut in half after all.

Sidious however really wanted someone with even greater potential than himself. That's why he loved the Skywalkers.

Originally posted by carthage
Intrepid showed me a quote once that at least gave credence to the idea of Maul one day getting up to Sidious's level or something along those lines. I'm not sure if I believe it, but he had somewhat of a lesser potential than Anakin's.

Anakin's potential is somewhat at ridiculous levels, I mean %200 of Sidious is overkill.

I would be fine with just ''a real challenge for Sidious'' level.

Maul was the Sithari

Originally posted by Marco1907
I am asking this because clearly he could be ''so much more''...

8PY-wcY-C0I

5:54

''I was destined to become so much more...''
Seems legit

Originally posted by Marco1907
And we know that Lucas said Sidious shouldn't have lost his apprentice in first place ;



''--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways-''
Since when is losing your apprentice ever a good thing? It wasn't Anakin's time to be cultivated yet.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And lastly, we've learned in SoD that Maul potential was being more powerful than his mother; Talzin.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/-Son-of-Dathomir-003-2014-Digital-Empire-010_zps9c9728e1.jpg

''When Sidious realized Maul's potential he took him from me and trained him as a Sith''
Not really sure that implies that as heavily as you think.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I mean he became considerably more powerful in the clone wars just with in few months, clearly I can't imagine what would he become in 10 years after the period of TPM, could he be a real challenge for his Master ? Or would he be still noticeably inferior to him ?
An interesting question. One I might actually explore in my fanfic...

It's also ironic that Kenobi's destiny was destroying great potentials for the Dark Side ... Such as Anakin & Maul (if he really was though)

Obi-wan's destiny is entirely based around cutting limbs off, training people, and having girls die in his arms.

Maul's character doesn't really focus on potential. He's more about breaking overwhelming limits that are forced on him through sheer willpower. He sets his own potential, if that makes sense. Like, he isn't going to let the need for a couple of prosthetic legs slow him down. As soon as he could he rebuilt himself on Lotho Minor, kept on pushing for survival in conditions that would kill anyone else. His strength is earned, not inherent.

Probably good enough to eventually kill Palpatine.

I also think he would have eventually been able to defeat Sidious, but Maul would have done it through physical combat prowess and relied little to none on sith sorcery.

I really doubt that Maul could have approached Sidious or even surpassed Dooku level.

As I recall Lucas actually said that when Anakin lost his limbs he lost the ability to surpass Sidious and became like Maul and Dooku in that regard.

Eh, given time, Maul surpassing Dooku isn't a stretch.

He would have surpassed Dooku but yeah, he wouldn't have ever legitimately threatened Sidious I don't think.

I don't think it'd make sense for Maul to get to even Dooku's level of power. At least in regards to offensive powers like telekinesis. It'd be cool if he somehow found innovative ways of advancing Force Augmentation, seeing as he is primarily a physical combatant. But aside from that I'd rather Maul kept to his roots.

sorry, post made in error...

Keep in mind that Maul was probably under half the age of Sidious when Sidious killed his master, or when Plagueis killed his.

It takes a long time to transverse the higher tiers, even when one has the potential.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that Maul was probably under half the age of Sidious when Sidious killed his master, or when Plagueis killed his.

It takes a long time to transverse the higher tiers, even when one has the potential.


Maul's actually younger than Kenobi Iirc. Plus he pretty much lost 10 years of his life.

I think he would have surpassed Dooku, but not Sidious. So maybe Windu level potential?

Come to think of it, he's still alive, so could still do that. Unless losing half his body has cost him potential (it did for Vader so should do for Maul as well).

Like I said in the other thread. If Maul hadn't been so stuck up about his lightsaber skills for the majority of his life and actually gave his attention to his Force powers, he would be a ridiculous sorcerer esc character. Maul always had a lot of potential in the Force but for the largest chunk of his life he was obsessed with beating people by being a great swordsman and that is Darth Mauls folly

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Like I said in the other thread. If Maul hadn't been so stuck up about his lightsaber skills for the majority of his life and actually gave his attention to his Force powers, he would be a ridiculous sorcerer esc character. Maul always had a lot of potential in the Force but for the largest chunk of his life he was obsessed with beating people by being a great swordsman and that is Darth Mauls folly


I dunno. He was only like 22 in TPM Iirc. Up to that stage I think his combat training should focus on martial abilities. After perfecting that he should spend the next few decades focusing on increasing his connection to the Force, to improve his Tk and augment all his other abilities.

Which is probably what he would have done had he not been sliced in 2.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Like I said in the other thread. If Maul hadn't been so stuck up about his lightsaber skills for the majority of his life and actually gave his attention to his Force powers, he would be a ridiculous sorcerer esc character. Maul always had a lot of potential in the Force but for the largest chunk of his life he was obsessed with beating people by being a great swordsman and that is Darth Mauls folly Why would being a sorcerer make a lick of sense opposed to a physically dominating assassin? Sidious was in charge of Maul's training for a start and restricted him from learning anything other than what he wanted for him. And his goal as Sidious' apprentice was to assassinate high priority targets, go on covert missions, espionage, infiltration ect. Being a super powerful Force beast isn't going to help you do any of that. Learning how to become invisible and move silently will, both things Maul mastered. At this time the Sith weren't allowed to reveal themselves, so it made on sense for Maul to develop high level offensive Force techniques.

And to be honest, the fact that he was only 22 by the time he was considered to be one of the greatest duelists in Sith history already shows just how much more skilled he is than other characters relative to age. Then consider the fact that he had time in there to squeeze in all types of Esoteric Force techniques ranging from advanced telepathy, advanced mind tricks, invisibility/cloaking, Mechu-Deru, gravity manipulation, ect. Juyo itself is a lightsaber form that requires you to be a high level master of several other fighting disciplines before you can truly control it, and one of the fighting disciplines used to supplement his Juyo was Niman - which takes ten years of training itself to even master. Not only that but he also learned Jar'Kai, the dual blade variant of Niman on top of his mastery of the Saberstaff. And not only did he master Teras Kasi and funnel that into his lightsaber combat, he mastered numerous other Martial arts even as a teenager according to a few sources.

Then consider how he lost two of his legs, twelve years of his life, doing nothing other than surviving and stewing in his hatred in a little cave. As a result he comes back into the world a hell of a lot more powerful and skilled with the Force, but every bit as skilled in terms of dueling, every bit as intelligent and tactical as he once was and as physically capable as he once was.

I mean, the guy has crammed a lot of disciplines into his collective of skills and combat techniques. People underrate the hell out of Maul (probably due to Marco wanking him), because he isn't some out of the stratosphere Force User. Fact is, given his circumstances and age, he's proportionately done a lot more than some characters could ever dream of doing.

Maul is one hell of a duelist that is for sure but when looking at his potential, if he truly was going to surpass Sidious, he didn't even come close. Maul had so much potential but all sidious ever trained him to be was a dog on a leash. And after Maul stopped being Sidious's dog, Maul was just a minor pest. If you are saying that he became what he was because of Sidious's training then Sidious is a shitty master

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Maul is one hell of a duelist that is for sure but when looking at his potential, if he truly was going to surpass Sidious, he didn't even come close. Maul had so much potential but all sidious ever trained him to be was a dog on a leash. And after Maul stopped being Sidious's dog, Maul was just a minor pest. If you are saying that he became what he was because of Sidious's training then Sidious is a shitty master I don't think it has ever been stated anywhere that Maul was intended to surpass Sidious, so I don't get why people keep going on about this.

LOL @ him just being a dog on a leash. Like I've said before, you can call him a dog on a leash all you want but he'd eviscerate 90% of characters he would encounter, and he's done more in his short span of life than most characters are capable of.

Actually it was noted in an interview that Maul's military was a legitimate threat to Sidious.

And yes.. he got his training from Sidious, and the Orsis Academy where Sidious sent him. For what he was intended to be - an assassin and spy - he excelled, and he was already one of the best duelists in the mythos by the time he was 22 based on pure work ethic. I find that more interesting to read than some hurrdurr uber powerful Force magician.

And on the point of surpassing Sidious - if Maul was given a true Banite Sith apprenticeship, and was actually given longer than his early twenties to train before being cut in half by a plot device, maybe he would have surpassed Sidious. He certainly has the discipline for it that most others lack.

First of, Maul was a True Banite Sith apprentice to Sidious. He was intended to take over from Sidious one day.

But yeah, he was only around 22 in TPM. Had he not been cut in half and had he spent the next 30 years mastering the Force, then I don't see why he couldn't be an equal to Sidious (or at least close to that level).

But saying all that I've not seen anything to make me believe that he could/would have actually Surpassed Sidious's power level.

Based on what was he a true Banite Sith? No doubt he was a Sith Lord but he wasn't a Banite Sith. Probably a semi-Banite Sith if anything.

Originally posted by ILS
Based on what was he a true Banite Sith? No doubt he was a Sith Lord but he wasn't a Banite Sith. Probably a semi-Banite Sith if anything.


Based on the way the creators of TCW portrayed him. And Lucas confirming Sidious didn't want him killed/replaced (unless obviously someone much more powerful came along).

That's why he was able to build a power base for himself. It was all part of his training (which he even confirms to Sidious). That's not part of a mere Assassin's skill set.

I don't believe there was any improvement room for Maul. Children learn faster, Maul was trained from childhood down to his limits.
True Sith training would add lightning and Sorcery to his abilities, first is a negligible advantage, second - non factor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Based on the way the creators of TCW portrayed him. And Lucas confirming Sidious didn't want him killed/replaced (unless obviously someone much more powerful came along).

That's why he was able to build a power base for himself. It was all part of his training (which he even confirms to Sidious). That's not part of a mere Assassin's skill set. How did TCW portray him as a Banite Sith? And that theory doesn't really hold up considering Sidious was planning to replace Maul with Dooku prior to TPM anyway, which makes sense because he would need someone with a talent for politics heading into the Clone Wars opposed to an assassin.

Maul never was a mere assassin but it was the foundation of his training. Forming the Shadow Collective showed great intelligence and cunning on his part but that has nothing to do with whether or not he was a Banite Sith or if he was meant to surpass Sidious.

Galen Marak by the age 17 became more powerful than Darth Maul by the age of 22 and they both seemed to have around the same potential.

Had Sidious chose to train Maul properly he could have surpassed Sidious, he could have learned how to wield a lightsaber as well as he did after.

Tbh going by their respective showings against Vader, Galen and TPM Maul aren't too far apart at all, really.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Tbh going by their respective showings against Vader, Galen and TPM Maul aren't too far apart at all, really.



Even Proxy's Darth Maul program was a good match for Galen, take the real Darth Maul and he can kick Galen's ass.



Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that Maul was probably under half the age of Sidious when Sidious killed his master, or when Plagueis killed his.

It takes a long time to transverse the higher tiers, even when one has the potential.

Agreed, by TPM he was even younger than ''padawan'' TPM Kenobi (Kenobi 24 / Maul 22) yet he was clearly much more powerful than Kenobi like one tier ahead, even in TPM.

I am not sure he could surpass his master or not eventually, but I am sure he would be a good challenge for his master (in lightsaber combat at least) he could be similar to vaapad amped Mace Windu maybe.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Galen Marak by the age 17 became more powerful than Darth Maul by the age of 22 and they both seemed to have around the same potential.

Had Sidious chose to train Maul properly he could have surpassed Sidious, he could have learned how to wield a lightsaber as well as he did after. Galen was ridiculously powerful naturally, though. I don't get what source people seem to be referring to when referring to Maul's "potential". His potential has never been detailed specifically by any source that I know of. Galen Marek is highly powerful because of his midichlorian count but aside from that he's nothing special tbh.

And I can't help but giggle at people thinking Galen and TPM Maul are remotely comparable as duelists.

Originally posted by ILS
How did TCW portray him as a Banite Sith? And that theory doesn't really hold up considering Sidious was planning to replace Maul with Dooku prior to TPM anyway, which makes sense because he would need someone with a talent for politics heading into the Clone Wars opposed to an assassin.

Maul never was a mere assassin but it was the foundation of his training. Forming the Shadow Collective showed great intelligence and cunning on his part but that has nothing to do with whether or not he was a Banite Sith or if he was meant to surpass Sidious.

When Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer were discussing about Darth Maul's return, they talked about the rule of 2, and how Maul would have to be trained in all the ways of the Sith so he could replace Sidioud one day.

Who said Sidious was already planning to replace Maul with Dooku. He might have been considering it, but Lucas clearly states Sidious didn't plan on losing Maul.

Forming the Shadow Collective was all down to his training by Sidious as a true all round Sith. This had been made very clear by Sam Witwer and Dave Filoni.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't believe there was any improvement room for Maul. Children learn faster, Maul was trained from childhood down to his limits.
True Sith training would add lightning and Sorcery to his abilities, first is a negligible advantage, second - non factor.

All Jedi are trained from a young age. And I personally think all Jedi and Sith improve over time. That's why people like Windu and Dooku are above people like Kenobi and Maul.

Jedi bid their time and generally hold back on training most of the time. The best example is how slowly Anakin progressed comparing to Luke who didn't even have a master to train him.

Sith drill and strain their limits on regular basis. Also, Maul has got accolade of being one of the most highly trained Sith in history.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Who said Sidious was already planning to replace Maul with Dooku. He might have been considering it, but Lucas clearly states Sidious didn't plan on losing Maul.


In the Darth Plagueis novel, Sidious never expected such a lost, he even wonder how Maul defeated a more powerful jedi while he lose to inferior. Once, after Maul destroyed the part of Black Sun, he even warned Maul to not toying with his force sensitive opponent, this is really contradicts with some thoughts here.

Maul is constantly doing that shit as well.

Originally posted by ILS
I don't think it'd make sense for Maul to get to even Dooku's level of power. At least in regards to offensive powers like telekinesis. It'd be cool if he somehow found innovative ways of advancing Force Augmentation, seeing as he is primarily a physical combatant. But aside from that I'd rather Maul kept to his roots.


Dooku pretty much stated that he had reached his limit in power as of Yoda: DR. Don't remember the quote, but if my memory serves me, he also somewhat implied that Ventress had greater potential than he, so it's very likely that Maul's potential could have been above Dooku's as well. Not hard to imagine anyway, as I doubt Ventress's potential to be above Maul's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku pretty much stated that he had reached his limit in power as of Yoda: DR. Don't remember the quote, but if my memory serves me, he also somewhat implied that Ventress had greater potential than he, so it's very likely that Maul's potential could have been above Dooku's as well. Not hard to imagine anyway, as I doubt Ventress's potential to be above Maul's. Ah, I didn't know this. Interesting. I mean I wouldn't be against the idea of Maul becoming significantly more powerful. It's just annoying seeing his character being butchered again and again.

Originally posted by ILS
Ah, I didn't know this. Interesting. I mean I wouldn't be against the idea of Maul becoming significantly more powerful. It's just annoying seeing his character being butchered again and again.


I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

I can give you the quote and page number (paper back) later tonight if I can find the book.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

I can give you the quote and page number (paper back) later tonight if I can find the book. You don't have to but I can't say I wouldn't appreciate it. I won't be reading that novel for a little while.

Sidious also seemed to regard Ventress' increasing power as a developing threat, which is why he asked Dooku to eliminate her. Maybe Maul and Ventress will see an improvement in power as they get older.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.


Interesting, I was thinking the same about Dooku , it seems that he was really using his full %100 potential, especially since he was 20 years older than his Sith master Palpatine and his mastery and experience on the force leads me to that conclusion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

.

Well that would only be totally true if his knowledge and mastery of the dark side was =/> Sidious's. But somehow I doubt that.

Full potential is a difficult thing to measure, because it assumes one has completely mastered all the ways of the force with nothing left to learn, and ha reached their highest and fullest connection to the Force. I mean if we include the Legends Eu, then even ROTS Sidious hasn't reached his full potential as DE Sidious was even more powerful.

That would be the quote, ILS. Thanks, Marco. Although I recalled it a bit differently. Interpret it as you will, but Dooku did imply he didn't have much room left for improvement, whereas Ventress, while already powerful, still had many years to deepen her connection to the force and become more powerful.

DP, no, Sidious didn't teach Dooku everything he knew, but I think Dooku was referring to the power he could dish out. Sure he may have been able to learn other techniques, but many techniques require power far beyond some user's potential, or require aid. For instance, Vitiate and a lot of the ancient sith had mastery over techniques, but required aid or rituals, otherwise their own power was insufficient. Mastery and knowledge does not always determine one's personal power. I think Dooku was implying that his own natural raw power was at it's limit, and that he couldn't grow beyond what he had already realized.

Though Dooku is a power house, and most of his feats are done casually, as we've never seen him fully exert himself (unless it's struggling to fight off an angry Anakin's physical attacks or attacks from an angry Savage); however, I'm pretty sure Dooku knows how much he's capable of dishing out if he fully unleashed himself. I'm also pretty sure he had full command of the power he had at his disposal.

As for Dooku's knowledge on the force, yeah it is damn unique. That's why Dooku > Maul on overall knowledge of the force.

But knowledge on the Dark Side is different than overall knowledge on the force, most of the Dooku's knowledge depends on his Jedi master career, he was one of the best teacher in the jedi order.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/088_zpsfa3bb2d5.jpg

But as I said before, Dark Side dedication is different than overall knowledge on the Force, that's why even Darth Maul (let alone Sidious) is better than Dooku at the dark side, Maul survived from being cut in half just because of his dark side dedication and his knowledge, killed a telepath via dark thoughts because of the same reasons, his pain tolerance and durability also depends on his dark side powers. These dark side abilities are impossible to accomplish for Dooku imho.

As for the matter of Ventress has more potential than Dooku, it make sense to me actually. She was able to force choke Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time when the time she felt desperately and she was losing bad against them, but of course she failed to do that again, since she didn't take enough training to do it consistently or willingly, and clearly Dooku knew that she could surpass him in time and didn't trained her enough to do so. As for Dooku, he couldn't choke Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time imo, he could choke them separately but at the same time ? I doubt. And that's the difference should be Dooku's and Ventress's potentials.

The difference between Maul and Ventress is, Maul trained as a Sith and he take enough training (one of the most highly trained Sith in the history) to improve himself alone in the clone wars while Ventress's training was half finished due to Dooku's will.

I really wonder what was Savage's true potential either, he force choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time, then he created a force wave that even shrugged off Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time. He might also become powerful as his brother with enough training.

I don't know that we will see that deleted scene (Maul force pushing Sidious) in blu-ray editions or not, it could give us more details about Maul's true potential.

Yeah.. so Darth Maul being intended to surpass Sidious is in fact false, which I knew it was, I just didn't have a source to confirm it. Here it is, Sidious' own description of his relationship with his former apprentice, Darth Maul:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4205782-mauls+apprenticeship+to+sidious.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4205781-mauls+apprenticeship+to+sidious2.jpg

Sidious also refers to Maul as an animal, who could never expand beyond his limited set of abilities in the Book of Sith.

LOL.

So many fallacious there...

1- Maul homeworld ; Iridonia
2- Maul's tattoos made by Sidious
3- He didn't foresee Maul's death according to Darth Plagueis Novel.

Damn, that's mean. And kind of weird, because his abilities aren't really limited to begin with. I'm not expecting him to bust out Force Lightning or Tutaminis any time soon but he's skilled with the Force in his own way. Maybe he meant that he doesn't intend to teach Maul anything past what he's given him?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious also refers to Maul as an animal, who could never expand beyond his limited set of abilities in the Book of Sith.

That was Dooku in RotS novel, not Sidious. And that is a fallacious too, according to new canon,

''Great Sith Lord Darth Maul'' - Count Dooku, TCW 03x13 - Monster

Originally posted by Marco1907
LOL.

So many fallacious there...

1- Maul homeworld ; Iridonia
2- Maul's tattoos made by Sidious
3- He didn't foresee Maul's death according to Darth Plagueis Novel. The Dathomirian retcon has no bearing on Maul's relationship with Sidious other than minor changes of origin.

In the Darth Plagueis novel Maul still isn't considered a "true apprentice", and I still haven't seen a single shred of evidence for Maul being intended to surpass Sidious.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That was Dooku in RotS novel, not Sidious. And that is a fallacious too, according to new canon,

''Great Sith Lord Darth Maul'' - Count Dooku

No, it's Sidious in the Book of Sith:

"Warriors are animals. Agent's like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks."

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it's Sidious in the Book of Sith:

"Warriors are animals. Agent's like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks."

Well my bad then, still, he clearly proved to be this was a wrong assessment, especially in TCW. He created a vast criminal empire and conquered the Mandalore via conspiracy.

And then, he managed to capture both Count Dooku and General Grievous via using his wits.

Which has nothing to do with surpassing Sidious

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well my bad then, still, he clearly proved to be this was a wrong assessment, especially in TCW. He created a vast criminal empire and conquered the Mandalore via conspiracy.

And then, he managed to capture both Count Dooku and General Grievous via using his wits.

And lost. So he didn't actually expand beyond his role successfully.

I was referring to this ''but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks. '' This is also refers to his power improvement imo, it seems that they think TPM Maul was his prime but well they were wrong.

According to some pre-TCW sources, clearly Maul was seen like Savage Opress, which is dumb for this EU writers. I mean, can't they see it would be dumb ? Sidious raised and trained Maul for over 10 years just because he can be killed in TPM ? Really ?

Filoni and TCW are the best source for Maul's potential, since Filoni was very close to Lucas and he knows Lucas's ideas more than any EU writer. (Also Lucas was also directed the TCW sometimes) That's why Lucas himself said that Sidious was not expecting Maul's death in the TPM, ILS's source (which says Sidious foresee Maul's death in TPM) also contradicts with Lucas as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And lost. So he didn't actually expand beyond his role successfully.

What ? How can you skip this like ''And lost.''

So, Sidious was not actually expand his role succussfully because ''He lost'' in RotJ ?

Losing or winning is not the issue here, using a tactical and strategical mind is.

Lucas also said that when Vader was cut apart he lost the potential to surpass Sidious, making him more like Count Dooku and Darth Maul. So what does that tell you....

I'm taking that with an ejaculations worth of salt.

Lucas is a douchenozzle

I think we can all agree unless you're a megalomaniacal despot like Gideon, that with proper Sith training Maul would've surpassed the Emperor

To be inferior to Sidious.

You lot are confusing 2 things.

1: If Maul would have surpassed Sidious.
2: If Maul was trained as a true Sith Apprentice to one day possibly replace Sidious.

The first is doubtful. The second is true and canon. Any old Legends Eu contradicting that fact is complete BS.

So Maul may not have had as high potential as Sidious. But he obviously had enough potential for Sidious to take him as a true Apprentice. So id say his potential was at least Windu level (or somewhere like that- close to Sidious's).

Did Sidious truly intended Maul to replace him? I find it contraindicative because Sidious was too selfish to consider himself being replaced.

I am not saying Maul should surpass Sidious (like the Anakin could, that's more like overkill ; being 2x powerful of Sidious) , but really consider him at 22 year old age level, then he become considerably more powerful in the clone wars with a half body of his. It's clearly he could be much more powerful if he would survive the TPM, I am sure he would be at the same level with Sidious in 15-20 year after the period of TPM, if not more powerful.

And then imagine Maul in AotC or RotS, there is no way Anakin could beat a much more powerful Darth Maul with his current power level in RotS. I am sure that Sidious never planned to replace Maul, at least not until Anakin would become really powerful (not like in RotS)

Also there is another scenario, if Maul would survive the TPM, he could take Anakin secretly, since there was no one left to train him as a Jedi, and his master didn't knew Anakin at that point, Maul could take Anakin and train himself secretly.

----Star Wars- Omnibus - Menace Revealed

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-Omnibus-MenaceRevealed-140_zpsb2593871.jpg

I don't think anyone was doubting that Maul had the potential to be a "true apprentice" - all I've been saying is that he actually wasn't, and that all this talk of "replacing" and "surpassing" Sidious is speculative and unfounded at best.

And I still haven't seen this Canon source which states Maul was a Banite Sith. Legends Canon or not, the old novels and sourcebooks gave a legitimate insight into Maul's origins in a way that shitty animation never could.

Originally posted by ILS


And I still haven't seen this Canon source which states Maul was a Banite Sith. Legends Canon or not, the old novels and sourcebooks gave a legitimate insight into Maul's origins in a way that shitty animation never could.

But Lucas had literally Zero input into those novels and sourcebooks that said otherwise. But all the material that had Lucas's input, plus any statements of his own, have always referred to Maul being a true Sith.

The legends material that imply otherwise have nothing to do with Lucas's vision on the matter, so were all just talking BS.

I honestly don't give a shit about Lucas' "vision", lol. He hasn't done anything to positively develop Maul's character so when we're talking about Maul's character, I refer to the people who have actually developed it in a significant manner.

Also, I didn't ever say Maul wasn't a Sith. Of course he's a Sith Lord. He's just not a Banite Sith, was never meant to take Sidious' spot, was never meant to become more powerful than him ect. And there is nothing in Lucas' vision which states otherwise.

In the resurrection comic, prophets of the dark side said that Maul was a banite sith, and Vader (as an ex-jedi) shouldn't be replaced with a true sith, and another reason was there was still a light inside of Vader.

''You are not of the bloodline of Bane''

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsTales09-019_zps5fc73a56.jpg

1. Simply saying Vader isn't a Banite Sith isn't enough to prove that Maul is one, especially considering the Prophets have no say or credibility in regards to Bane's lineage, which is why Sidious disintegrated them.

2. That is a Legends Canon source, so if we're throwing out any Legends material I use you can go ahead and do the same with that comic.

And if we are now going by Legends Canon, please just refer to what I previously posted. Sidious made his thoughts on Maul's apprenticeship quite clear.

What do you mean Maul wasn't a Banite Sith?
A Banite Sith is a Sith in the Order of the Sith Lords.
Guess what? Maul was a member of that sect... obviously.
This fact is also stated in Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul.

Maul was never one of the Two, he was an assassin - a tool Sidious was ready to dispose of at the drop of a hat. The point of the Rule of Two is that the Apprentice surpasses the Master, and Sidious made it clear that he chose Maul, and trained him in such a way, because he wanted to prevent himself from being surpassed.

I don't remember him being called a Banite Sith in that novel. A Sith Lord, sure, but not one of the Two.

Although to be fair Maul could be considered as some kind of semi-Banite Sith, but he obviously wasn't along the lines of Plagueis in terms of his involvement in the lineage and the Grand Plan.

Maul was of the Two when Plagueis was killed by Palpatine. Remember that Plagueis never anticipated being surpassed either.

He was still nothing but an assassin, though.

He didn't, but he did still share a Banite-type relationship with Sidious. They were carrying out the Grand Plan while Maul was basically just murking people for them.

You being wrong is probably my favorite thing in life.
"Darth Sidious brutally trained his apprentice to be a weapon of the Sith as well as a scheming mastermind."

Your life must suck, then.

That still has little to do with the Grand Plan or anything to do with Bane's lineage. You can be a scheming mastermind and still just be nothing more than an expendable assassin. Maul's always been a tactically minded warrior.

You are grasping to straws here, bro. You can't go from "nothing else besides a mindless assassin" to a "tactically minded warrior" and act like nothing changed.

I didn't call him a mindless assassin. He is just a personal assassin - that's what Sidious used him for. That is of no detriment to his tactical abilities or combat abilities in general.

Originally posted by ILS
He was still nothing but an assassin, though.

He didn't, but he did still share a Banite-type relationship with Sidious. They were carrying out the Grand Plan while Maul was basically just murking people for them.

I don't see mindless in there. You can be an assassin without being mindless, lmao.

"Maul was basically just murking people for them."
"He was still nothing but an assassin, though."

Yes - he was, just, killing people. That was his goal. To be the "ultimate weapon".

And yes, he was nothing but an assassin. That was his job, pretty much.

I don't see how any of that denotes me calling him mindless.

I can't believe this has turned into arguing semantics, lol.

Mindless: simple or repetitive as to be performed automatically without thought.
Being "nothing but" or "just" an assassin implies he cannot do anything else, and is only trained to do that one sect of skills.
This is wrong because Darth Maul was trained also to be a "scheming mastermind" as well. I accept your concession... loser.

Originally posted by HaHa Hannibal
Ant losing to ILS tbh
http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/1130958284.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Mindless: simple or repetitive as to be performed automatically without thought.
Being "nothing but" or "just" an assassin implies he cannot do anything else, and is only trained to do that one sect of skills.
This is wrong because Darth Maul was trained also to be a "scheming mastermind" as well. I accept your concession... loser. LMFAO

If I wanted to call him a mindless assassin, I would have called him a mindless assassin. I said he was "nothing but" an assassin, as in, that's all he did. Assassinated people. He didn't contribute to the Grand Plan, was never intended to surpass Sidious and was only ever used as a killer.

You're confusing what I'm saying. When I say Maul is "just an assassin", I'm talking about his.. "occupation", if you can call it that. I'm not talking about what he can do or what he's good at. You're the one bringing those elements into the debate.

And on that note, Maul is obviously not mindless and I never implied as such. He was only an assassin, sure, but he's damn good at his job, and he's good at more things than just killing people. But in terms of his contribution to the Sith Order, and his status (or lack thereof) in Bane's lineage, all he was, was an assassin.

Seeing you completely change your stance in the debate without saying your changing your stance is more satisfactory then you conceding, to be honest.
You went from all he can do is kill people to "he's good at more things than just killing people." This is funny as **** to be honest. Might put this in my profile. :mmm:

The reason Maul didn't get high level sith training (sith lightning, sorcery, illusions, midi-cholorian manipulation etc.) because that was high level sith education, first you can teach to your apprentice tactical mind, infiltration, how to fight, how to use lightsaber, basic force knowledge, durability, H2H combat, basic dark side knowledge etc. Maul's training was completed with these, he only lacks high level sith training, and that just because he step out of the game too early, not because Sidious would never teach him.

Remember the time when Sidious saved Plagueis from assasination, because Sidious still neeeded to learn somethings from Plagueis, and that Sidious was older than TPM Maul.


I really wonder that Talzin give to Maul about knowledge of dathomir magicks or not, Maul could use these magicks for improving his level more imo.

Originally posted by HaHa Hannibal
Ant losing to ILS tbh

No, because you are a Maul hater as well as uber troll.

Marco, I found a quote for Maul on the old databanks. You want them?

Originally posted by HaHa Hannibal
Ant losing to ILS tbh

You kidding me? ILS keeps repeating the same s***. "Maul was just an expendable assassin"

What's his source? Some outdated Legends sh** totally contradicted by Lucas, TCW and even the Official site.

A mere assassin isn't trained to be a scheming master mind. Trying to make those things fit is clearly grasping for straws.

Some of his sources are even contradicted in almost every other EU material about Maul.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Some of his sources are even contradicted in almost every other EU material about Maul.

Exactly

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Seeing you completely change your stance in the debate without saying your changing your stance is more satisfactory then you conceding, to be honest.
You went from all he can do is kill people to "he's good at more things than just killing people." This is funny as **** to be honest. Might put this in my profile. :mmm: I didn't ever change my stance, you just misinterpreted what I said and dragged me into arguing semantics. I was referring to Maul's status in the Rules of Two/Sith Order the whole time, you're the one who brought his tactical mind into the debate, which has **** all to do with what we were discussing - which is if he was ever going to surpass Sidious, was ever intended to, if he was powerful enough to ect.

Hurrrr try reading my posts. You still haven't provided a single "Canon" source for Maul being intended to surpass Sidious, so as far as I'm concerned you're the one going in circles. Try again.

And the best part is, you cite a piece of evidence from Legends Canon to round off your post. Brilliant. Double standards at their finest. And being a "scheming mastermind" alone has **** all to do with Maul's apprenticeship to Sidious. That could be in reference to his tactical skills, which it more than likely is, since that is a prominent element of his character - not surpassing Sidious.

No, you went from Maul can only be an assassin to Maul can do a ton of other shit as well. Just admit your wrong.

Again, I wasn't talking about what Maul "can do", in terms of his tactical mind or any of his other skills. I was talking about how, to Sidious, he was just a personal assassin. That. Has. ****. All. To. Do. With. Being. A. Scheming. Mastermind.

How can you "just" be an assassin who "only" kills people yet also be a "scheming mastermind?"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You kidding me? ILS keeps repeating the same s***. "Maul was just an expendable assassin"

What's his source? Some outdated Legends sh** totally contradicted by Lucas, TCW and even the Official site.

A mere assassin isn't trained to be a scheming master mind. Trying to make those things fit is clearly grasping for straws.


Was Maul expendable? Yes. Maul pretty much confirmed that's the reason he hated Sidious (SOD). Not to mention that in "The Lost One," it's confirmed that Dooku was already dubbed the name Darth Tyrannus while Maul was still Sidious's apprentice, which is a big hint that Sidious was planning on replacing Maul.

While serving Sidious, did Maul ever accomplish anything other than assassinating people for Sidious? From what we know of, no. Does that conclude that Maul wasn't trained to be a scheming mastermind? No.

Can you quote anything from ILS that contradicts canon?

Because an assassin who is a mastermind tends to be pretty good at his job, i.e separating Kenobi and Jinn during their duel and basically controlling the entire engagement.

Plus, "scheming mastermind" isn't an occupation. Assassin is an occupation. Assassin was his only occupation.

Originally posted by ILS
Because an assassin who is a mastermind tends to be pretty good at his job, i.e separating Kenobi and Jinn during their duel and basically controlling the entire engagement.

Plus, "scheming mastermind" isn't an occupation. Assassin is an occupation. Assassin was his only occupation.
You are completely and utterly changing your stance though on what Maul is, though.
Being "nothing but" or "just" an assassin implies he cannot do anything else or wasn't trained to either.
Sure, you can say that being a mastermind helps, but you are changing the intention of what you meant originally.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are completely and utterly changing your stance though on what Maul is, though.
Being "nothing but" or "just" an assassin implies he cannot do anything else or wasn't trained to either.
Sure, you can say that being a mastermind helps, but you are changing the intention of what you meant originally. His only occupation was assassin. He did nothing but be an assassin.

Scheming mastermind is an attribute, not an occupation.

I haven't changed my stance on anything, you're just failing to properly interpret what I'm saying because you seem to think being "nothing but an assassin" literally means that Maul can't do anything else other than kill people, which is obviously not the case. He speaks basic, can do a handstand, can see in the dark - but these aren't occupations. So I was right in saying that he was only an assassin, because that was what he was while he was under Sidious.

So are you going to accept that you derailed the conversation and misinterpreted what I said, or will you be persistent?

His occupation is a Sith Apprentice of the Order of the Sith Lords, not "just an assassin."

No, you just don't know how to explain yourself properly. Maul was trained to be much more then "just an assassin", as shown by his expertise in tactician when forming the Shadow Collective, and his command of the Force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
His occupation is a Sith Apprentice of the Order of the Sith Lords, not "just an assassin."

No, you just don't know how to explain yourself properly. Maul was trained to be much more then "just an assassin", as shown by his expertise in tactician when forming the Shadow Collective. Who assassinated people for a living.

So what else exactly was it that Maul did other than assassinating people? Because him being intelligent enough to rally Mandalorians and criminal syndicates behind him doesn't indicate much past that he's smart. Still waiting for some kind of Canon confirmation that Sidious intended to have Maul do more than assassinate people. And I have a feeling I'll be waiting for a long time.

"A deadly, agile Sith Lord trained by the evil Darth Sidious, Darth Maul was a formidable warrior and scheming mastermind. He wielded an intimidating double-bladed lightsaber and fought with a menacing ferocity. Though he fell in battle against Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Zabrak from Dathomir would prove to be much harder to destroy than originally believed."
--StarWars.com Databanks: Darth Maul (http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-maul)

And nah, the Shadow Collective is a lot more impressive then you are making it out to be. He got the alliance of the Hutts and Mandalorians in like a week.
I don't think that has ever been replicated. Maul's Collective ended up being so much of a threat that Palpatine considered his Order a rival of his own.

Calling Maul as ''Lord'' make no sense either, if Sidious was thinking him just as an ''assassin'' it would be stupid I guess.

MvP6o83qS90

Sidious could use someone like Asajj Ventress or Savage Opress, without giving the title of ''Darth'' ...

Again, you're dwelling on this "Scheming mastermind" thing alongside your own conjecture that he was intended to be like General Grievous.

Believe, I'll be the first one to tell you how intelligent Maul is. But just because you "bet" he was going to be like Grievous means little in the way of proving me wrong. Sidious blatantly only ever wanted him to be an assassin.

I'd also love to see someone refute Sidious66, since he brought up some Canon evidence to support my argument that I honestly don't have the effort to go looking for, because TCW is awful.

@Marco Exactly. The "Darth" and "Lord" titles indicate something more then just a Ventress type figure.

Originally posted by ILS
Again, you're dwelling on this "Scheming mastermind" thing alongside your own conjecture that he was intended to be like General Grievous.

Believe, I'll be the first one to tell you how intelligent Maul is. But just because you "bet" he was going to be like Grievous means little in the way of proving me wrong. Sidious blatantly only ever wanted him to be an assassin.

I'd also love to see someone refute Sidious66, since he brought up some Canon evidence to support my argument that I honestly don't have the effort to go looking for, because TCW is awful.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Maul's Collective ended up being so much of a threat that Palpatine considered his Order a rival of his own.
A person just trained as an assassin can't do that, broski.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Was Maul expendable? Yes.
So was Dooku and Vader.

Everyone hates Sidious besides... Sidious.


Source and quote?


http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130427064638/starwars/images/thumb/d/dc/MaulLockdownCover.jpg/650px-MaulLockdownCover.jpg


http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131025014519/starwars/images/thumb/3/35/ShadowCollectivePlotting.png/500px-ShadowCollectivePlotting.png

Originally posted by Marco1907
Calling Maul as ''Lord'' make no sense either, if Sidious was thinking him just as an ''assassin'' it would be stupid I guess.

Sidious could use someone like Asajj Ventress or Savage Opress, without giving the title of ''Darth'' ...


Sidious likely intended for Maul to one day do more than just go around killing any threats to his plans, but once he had Dooku, it seems as if Maul was disposable, hence Maul's hatred for both Sidious and Dooku.

And yes that's all he was intended to be.

Sidious is like the most deceptive Sith ever. I really doubt his words there represent his actual intent.

Gives source; Ant asks for a source. SHM

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul was disposable,

Bane considered Zannah disposable too, that's part of the Ro2.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Bane considered Zannah disposable too, that's part of the Ro2.


Not sure how that contradicts anything I said.

As I said, Maul was likely intended to do more than go around killing people, but once Sidious found someone more helpful to his plans of galactic domination, he planned on replacing Maul right away. Well, it was hinted at in "The Lost One," seeing how he already gave Dooku his new sith name while Maul was still his apprentice.

What I'm trying to get at, is nothing ILS said is contradicted by canon, and I don't see how people are mis-interpreting what he's saying. All he's saying is Maul did nothing more than go around killing potential threats to Sidious. Even while Maul was still Sidious's apprentice, Dooku was contributing more to Sidious's plans than Maul was, and he was being treated as more than just an assassin. Filoni suggested that Sidious thought he may have found a successor in Maul when he discovered him, but as time went on, Sidious didn't regard him as such. He treated Dooku as a more valuable asset than he did Maul, and it had nothing to do with Dooku having the potential to surpass him, seeing how Lucas confirmed that neither him nor Maul did.

Again, when does The Lost One confirm this?

Jack just slaughterhoused S66. Posting this again so everyone can see the slaughter even after that account is gone:
Originally posted by COPPA LAW
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/screenshot-wwwhollywoodcom2014-11-0720-49-13_zps63bd12b6.png

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/index_zps5ee1817e.png

Originally posted by COPPA LAW
It was Sam Witver, not Filoni, btw. But shouldn't make any difference as per the second image.


But in the series, after that statement was made, Dooku was already picked and given his new sith name when Maul was still alive, so I'm not sure if the statement is retconned, or if Sidious didn't plan on replacing Dooku with Maul, which seems unlikely given that Dooku was playing a more vital role even when Maul was still an apprentice. Plus Lucas has stated otherwise, so IDK. Might be true, though.

Ant, you're are such a little faithful servant to Intrepid. Lol

No, he just hates you...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
No, he just hates you...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
No, he just hates you...


Such a wasted emotion on someone he doesn't even know, but I love it, though.

Why are my comments being deleted?

BTW, giving me a source I asked for is not a slaughterhouse.

A slaughterhouse is when I make the argument that Ventress has better TK feats than Revan, and no one is able to counter it. JS

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Was Maul expendable? Yes. Maul pretty much confirmed that's the reason he hated Sidious (SOD). Not to mention that in "The Lost One," it's confirmed that Dooku was already dubbed the name Darth Tyrannus while Maul was still Sidious's apprentice, which is a big hint that Sidious was planning on replacing Maul.

While serving Sidious, did Maul ever accomplish anything other than assassinating people for Sidious? From what we know of, no. Does that conclude that Maul wasn't trained to be a scheming mastermind? No.

Can you quote anything from ILS that contradicts canon?

I'll have to rewatch the episode but I'm pretty sure he was referred to as just Tyrannus at that time and not "Darth" Tyrannus," which would have automatically broken the rule of 2. Sidious clearly swayed Dooku to the dark side and sent him on an important mission. None of that means he intended to replace Maul if Maul hadn't got cut in 2.(Although he clearly kept his options open)

Maul was clearly trained to do a lot more than assassinate people. That's the point.

Yes, ILS claiming Maul was never a true Sith, was never considered a true Apprentice to ones day possibly replace Sidious, and that Maul was intended as nothing more than an assassin? Is all clearly contradicted by canon. That's all been proven by numerous quotes on this thread.

I acknowledged that he is a true Sith Lord, stop misinterpreting everything I say to suit your agenda. I said that he wasn't a Banite Sith and that he was never intended to replace Sidious. Which he wasn't.

Originally posted by ILS
I acknowledged that he is a true Sith Lord, stop misinterpreting everything I say to suit your agenda. I said that he wasn't a Banite Sith and that he was never intended to replace Sidious. Which he wasn't.

Great except you're talking outta your ass.

Those 2 ideas go hand in hand. Maul was trained by Sidious. If he was a true Sith Lord then he was true Banite Sith, and he was at least considered as a potential replacement for Sidious.

If he was just a mere assassin like Ventress or Opress were to Dooku, then he would never have been a true Sith Lord.

If Maul really was a Banite Sith, then why did he become a Sith Lord whilst Sidious was apprenticed to Plagueis, and why wasn't he taught common Sith techniques like Lightning and Dun Moch? Why was he kept out of the grand plan? Why did he only go on espionage missions and kill people? Why are there sources coming out the ass which always tend to describe Maul as nothing other than an assassin, a tool for Sidious to dispose of on a whim?

Originally posted by ILS
If Maul really was a Banite Sith, then why did he become a Sith Lord whilst Sidious was apprenticed to Plagueis, and why wasn't he taught common Sith techniques like Lightning and Dun Moch? Why was he kept out of the grand plan? Why did he only go on espionage missions and kill people? Why are there sources coming out the ass which always tend to describe Maul as nothing other than an assassin, a tool for Sidious to dispose of on a whim?

Well, to be fair, even Vader and Dooku were viewed like that, yet Vader was arguably the closest to being a true apprentice, not to mention that Sidious wanted to live forever, so he wouldn't choose a successor, as per BoS.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
not to mention that Sidious wanted to live forever, so he wouldn't choose a successor, as per BoS. And that's part of why Maul was never intended to surpass Sidious in any manner, which is why Sidious trained Maul in such a way that he couldn't surpass him.

I'm one of the most devout Maul fans you can get but even I know where to draw the line when it comes to discussions like "potential"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll have to rewatch the episode but I'm pretty sure he was referred to as just Tyrannus at that time and not "Darth" Tyrannus," which would have automatically broken the rule of 2. Sidious clearly swayed Dooku to the dark side and sent him on an important mission. None of that means he intended to replace Maul if Maul hadn't got cut in 2.(Although he clearly kept his options open)

Maul was clearly trained to do a lot more than assassinate people. That's the point.

Yes, ILS claiming Maul was never a true Sith, was never considered a true Apprentice to ones day possibly replace Sidious, and that Maul was intended as nothing more than an assassin? Is all clearly contradicted by canon. That's all been proven by numerous quotes on this thread.


Well obviously he wasn't going to introduce himself to anybody by his Darth title, as that would give away his status as a sith, which would have confirmed that they still exist, which Sidious didn't want at the time.

Unless Sidious initially planned on killing Dooku after he sent Dooku on that "important mission" (which was more vital to the grand plan than anything Maul was tasked with), then I'm more than certain that Sidious had to take Dooku in as his apprentice in order to trust him with such an important task that Maul wasn't even aware of, especially with Dooku being a former jedi master. It's very unlikely that Sidious would trust a former jedi master with a very important sith conspiracy mission, with Dooku likely knowing Sidious's own identity, and only make Dooku a mere dark side adept. Now, I'm not saying this is absolute proof that he intended to replace Maul with Dooku, but it's a pretty big hint that's hard to ignore.

As far as Sidious's intentions on Maul being his true successor up until Maul was defeated, well the only thing to suggest that comes from statements from Filoni and Sam, which contradict earlier statements that came directly from Lucas himself. That's why I'm hesitant to take the statement as absolute proof, especially after it's heavily implied in "The Lost One" that Dooku was already serving as Sidious's secret apprentice and tasked with very important orders to carry out that would require Dooku to have a great deal of secrets regarding the grand plan. To me, it just seemed like off handed remarks from Dave and Sam. I think the main thing they were trying to stress was that Maul was meant and trained to be much more than what was originally thought by fans, but as far as we know, Maul never got that far in his career while serving Sidious, and was likely going to be eventually replaced by Dooku once Sidious recruited Dooku to his cause.


@ILS, DP doesn't take into account the EU's depiction of Maul being just a mere assassin to Sidious, and he's right on that part. New canon confirms he was meant to be much more, but as you said that's all he really amounted to while under Sidious's heel, as far as we know at least. I'm not sure why DP is trying to go in on you so hard, though. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're not well aware of the statements made by Filoni, and that you are very knowledgeable on EU Maul, which constantly implies he wasn't meant to amount to anything more than a mere assassin, not being smart enough to actually help Sidious conduct a galactic wide conflict.

You're up late

Originally posted by carthage
You're up late


It's 10:30 here, kind of late.

you live on the West coast too?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@ILS, DP doesn't take into account the EU's depiction of Maul being just a mere assassin to Sidious, and he's right on that part. New canon confirms he was meant to be much more, but as you said that's all he really amounted to while under Sidious's heel, as far as we know at least. I'm not sure why DP is trying to go in on you so hard, though. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're not well aware of the statements made by Filoni, and that you are very knowledgeable on EU Maul, which constantly implies he wasn't meant to amount to anything more than a mere assassin, not being smart enough to actually help Sidious conduct a galactic wide conflict. Yeah.. to be honest I'm completely used to debating EU 95% of the time. I don't pay much attention to official canon. At least I won't until some of the better novels and comics start coming out. I suppose they must have retconned Maul into being trained as more than just an assassin for TCW but I still don't see much to confirm this other than the fact Maul does go out and a raise a legitimate military. I dunno.. I mean, I don't see TCW as a great depiction of Maul to begin with.. I feel like his best character development was done in his older EU novels. But hey.. if Filoni says that Maul was meant to succeed Sidious even though up until he said that there were dozens of sources stating otherwise, not much we can do.

God I hate "canon" retcons...

Originally posted by ILS
If Maul really was a Banite Sith, then why did he become a Sith Lord whilst Sidious was apprenticed to Plagueis, and why wasn't he taught common Sith techniques like Lightning and Dun Moch? Why was he kept out of the grand plan? Why did he only go on espionage missions and kill people? Why are there sources coming out the ass which always tend to describe Maul as nothing other than an assassin, a tool for Sidious to dispose of on a whim?

Why was Luke being considered when there was already Sidious and Vader? When there's 2 Sith Lords you can have a 3rd work in progress, with deceptive plans to get rid of one of the others.

Who says Maul wasn't taught those things? Maul used Dun Moch on Kenobi. FL might take time to fully develop, but he was more knowledgeable in the Dark Side than the Nightsister Mighella who wielded it.

He wasn't kept out of the grand plans. He knew all about Sidious's plans for the Clone Wars as confirmed in "Revenge".

Dooku, Vader, Maul were all tools for Sidious. None of that means they were all mere assassins and not true Sith Lords.

Maul's main missions were assassinations and espionage, as those were the main jobs that needed doing pre-TPM. Hence the name "Phantom Menace."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not sure how that contradicts anything I said.

As I said, Maul was likely intended to do more than go around killing people, but once Sidious found someone more helpful to his plans of galactic domination, he planned on replacing Maul right away. Well, it was hinted at in "The Lost One," seeing how he already gave Dooku his new sith name while Maul was still his apprentice.



This is not certain, I watch the Episode you've mentioned and nothing is ''certain'' there.

In Plagueis Novel Sidious instantly thought Dooku as a new apprentice after the events of Naboo. Before the death of Maul, there is nothing says he considered Dooku as a replacement of Maul.

In fact these are his last words to Plagueis ;



I know you people like Sidious so much, and Sidious shouldn't make any mistakes in your point of view, (and even some EU writers thinks that way) but clearly Sidious failed just as Maul failed in Naboo, Sidious never thought Dooku before Maul's death, not to mention Lucas himself is the primary source, and we shouldn't even discuss this (Maul / Dooku replacement before the Naboo) in the first place.

Even in TPM Movie, (without TCW retcon) Maul should've known the Grand Plan (if he is not stupid.)

h3x7w546-IY

Maul was Sidious's side when Sidious was executing his plans on Trade Federation.

Originally posted by COPPA LAW 1
ILS & S66 taking a L, here. Good one, fellas, but Ant & DP won this one. Due to my lack of knowledge on a kiddies animation. How unfortunate..... especially on a supposed "expanded universe" board.

True

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well obviously he wasn't going to introduce himself to anybody by his Darth title, as that would give away his status as a sith, which would have confirmed that they still exist, which Sidious didn't want at the time.

Unless Sidious initially planned on killing Dooku after he sent Dooku on that "important mission" (which was more vital to the grand plan than anything Maul was tasked with), then I'm more than certain that Sidious had to take Dooku in as his apprentice in order to trust him with such an important task that Maul wasn't even aware of, especially with Dooku being a former jedi master. It's very unlikely that Sidious would trust a former jedi master with a very important sith conspiracy mission, with Dooku likely knowing Sidious's own identity, and only make Dooku a mere dark side adept. Now, I'm not saying this is absolute proof that he intended to replace Maul with Dooku, but it's a pretty big hint that's hard to ignore.

As far as Sidious's intentions on Maul being his true successor up until Maul was defeated, well the only thing to suggest that comes from statements from Filoni and Sam, which contradict earlier statements that came directly from Lucas himself. That's why I'm hesitant to take the statement as absolute proof, especially after it's heavily implied in "The Lost One" that Dooku was already serving as Sidious's secret apprentice and tasked with very important orders to carry out that would require Dooku to have a great deal of secrets regarding the grand plan. To me, it just seemed like off handed remarks from Dave and Sam. I think the main thing they were trying to stress was that Maul was meant and trained to be much more than what was originally thought by fans, but as far as we know, Maul never got that far in his career while serving Sidious, and was likely going to be eventually replaced by Dooku once Sidious recruited Dooku to his cause.


@ILS, DP doesn't take into account the EU's depiction of Maul being just a mere assassin to Sidious, and he's right on that part. New canon confirms he was meant to be much more, but as you said that's all he really amounted to while under Sidious's heel, as far as we know at least. I'm not sure why DP is trying to go in on you so hard, though. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're not well aware of the statements made by Filoni, and that you are very knowledgeable on EU Maul, which constantly implies he wasn't meant to amount to anything more than a mere assassin, not being smart enough to actually help Sidious conduct a galactic wide conflict.

Sidious likely would have killed Dooku later on.

Filoni explained the whole Pre-Tpm Dooku thing as just something that wasn't really planned. Dooku as a Jedi listened to Sifo-Dyas who had visions of the Sith and this clone army, so they went on the hunt for Sidious. Obviously Dooku found Sidious (with good intentions initially) but Sidious swayed him to the dark side and got him to tell eveything about Sifo Dyas' s visions, and then got him to kill Sifo Dyas under a different name, and then pretend to be him.

So the Dooku thing was nothing Sidious planned from day 1. It's just something that stumbled on him. But in any case we know Maul knew all about the Clone Wars grand plans.

The Eu wasn't all just "Maul was just an assassin and never meant to be a permanent Sith".

Read TPM novel. Sidious was clearly upset at the loss of Maul. Read any of the Maul novels, and Maul was clearly seen as a true Sith by Sidious. A trainee he put way too much work into to just be a mere assassin.

So the Legends Eu wad not clear cut on this matter at all. But in any case Legends had a hierarchy where Lucas's statements came first. So in either case, in the old or new canon, ILS is wrong.

If you read this whole thread ILS' s counter argument comes down to "Well I completely ignore anything Lucas says because he's not contributed anything significant to Maul" LOL

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious likely would have killed Dooku later on.

Filoni explained the whole Pre-Tpm Dooku thing as just something that wasn't really planned. Dooku as a Jedi listened to Sifo-Dyas who had visions of the Sith and this clone army, so they went on the hunt for Sidious. Obviously Dooku found Sidious (with good intentions initially) but Sidious swayed him to the dark side and got him to tell eveything about Sifo Dyas' s visions, and then got him to kill Sifo Dyas under a different name, and then pretend to be him.

So the Dooku thing was nothing Sidious planned from day 1. It's just something that stumbled on him. But in any case we know Maul knew all about the Clone Wars grand plans.

The Eu wasn't all just "Maul was just an assassin and never meant to be a permanent Sith".

Read TPM novel. Sidious was clearly upset at the loss of Maul. Read any of the Maul novels, and Maul was clearly seen as a true Sith by Sidious. A trainee he put way too much work into to just be a mere assassin.

So the Legends Eu wad not clear cut on this matter at all. But in any case Legends had a hierarchy where Lucas's statements came first. So in either case, in the old or new canon, ILS is wrong.

If you read this whole thread ILS' s counter argument comes down to "Well I completely ignore anything Lucas says because he's not contributed anything significant to Maul" LOL


There's nothing to indicate Sidious would have killed Dooku, given his political savvy and connections.

I never said Sidious planned on turning Dooku to the dark side from day one. I said he likely would have eventually replaced Maul with Dooku once he recruited him to his cause, considering Dooku was more helpful to the grand plan than Maul would have ever been. I also never said Maul wasn't aware of Sidious's plans; I actually acknowledged the fact that he was, just that his knowledge was likely limited as he most likely didn't know the role Dooku played, or about the mission at all, which was the starting point of the clones creation.

You're also ignoring what Lucas stated, so you're doing the same exact thing you're excusing ILS of doing. Lucas made it clear that neither Maul nor Dooku had the potential to surpass Sidious. That's not to say Maul wasn't being trained as a successor, seeing as Sidious didn't know the path to immortality, so he'd picked and trained someone powerful enough to carry on his legacy, but nothing Filoni stated suggests that Maul had what it took to be a true successor--an equal, and TCW series didn't depict him as such either, especially considering that after Talzin's defeat, he didn't even acknowledge Maul as being a threat to him. Before you say it's because his army was shattered, well, they were shattered by the time Sidious was duking it out with Talzin, but he didn't stop until Talzin was destroyed, because Talzin had the power and potential to be a threat.

No, the EU didn't portray Maul as anything more than a valuable assassin, who would have been useful in taking out jedi. He was never portrayed as having the intellect to help Sidious conduct a galaxy wide conflict. The EU, for the most part, depicted Maul as an extremely intelligent being when it comes to combat, not the mastermind schemer TCW depicted him as being. However, even in new canon, Maul wasn't as important to Sidious's plans as Dooku was, hence why he left him for dead and was satisfied with Dooku. Everything in the source material, from the series to SOD, made it clear that Sidious chose what benefited him at the time. That was basically the theme of SOD regarding Talzin's and especially Maul's hatred for him. That's all I'm saying. But, yes, Sidious was originally training Maul to be a master mind schemer to possibly replace him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


No, the EU didn't portray Maul as anything more than a valuable assassin, who would have been useful in taking out jedi. He was never portrayed as having the intellect to help Sidious conduct a galaxy wide conflict. The EU, for the most part, depicted Maul as an extremely intelligent being when it comes to combat, not the mastermind schemer TCW depicted him as being. However, even in new canon, Maul wasn't as important to Sidious's plans as Dooku was, hence why he left him for dead and was satisfied with Dooku. Everything in the source material, from the series to SOD, made it clear that Sidious chose what benefited him at the time. That was basically the theme of SOD regarding Talzin's and especially Maul's hatred for him. That's all I'm saying. But, yes, Sidious was originally training Maul to be a master mind schemer to possibly replace him.

You've got some wrong ideas about this, the reason Sidious didn't wanted Maul in TCW because he already decided on Anakin not Dooku. There is a deleted scene in Season 5 Episode 16 - Lawless, which is Sidious stopping Anakin to help Obi-Wan at Mandalore. He didn't want to pit Anakin and Maul each other. (Because even with Anakin they could lose to Maul as well) After the events of Naboo, he decided on Anakin not Dooku, (Palpatine : ''And you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest..'') so Dooku was always a placeholder, first his true apprentice was Maul, then he discovered Anakin's absurd potential in the force and take Dooku as placeholder until he was ready, Sidious could rule the Separatists by himself or with Maul as well, just as he did at Naboo. Dooku was only a important figure for Anakin's adaptation to the dark side, and Anakin learned somethings from Dooku's as well (such as dun moch, and makashi) and by killing him (by taking revenge for his arm) he become closer to the dark side as well.