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Three on three... who wins? Gnost, Depa, and Jaden? Or Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin?

I'm siding with team one here. They impress me more.

Team 1 has shit quality warriors, Jaden has beaten no one notable and isn't on the same skill tier as Fisto or Kolar both who are considered among the greatest warriors produced by the Jedi order.

Fisto is faster, vastly more skilled, and more powerful than Jaden. He can ragdoll him or kill him in a duel. Depa is featless and would fall to either Kolar or Fisto, and Dural likewise isn't swimming in feats either.

Team 2 stomps 10/10 every time

Alright, *cracks his knuckles * this should be fun, i just wish my furry friend was here.

So i'm expecting this fight to go like this:

Depa Billaba Vs Kit Fisto

Gnost Vs Agen Kolar

Jaden Vs Saesee Tiin

The last two are interchangeable.

Depa Billaba is extremely skilled with the blade, she has killed Twenty four armed men in less than a minute, she was considered too fast, too strong and too "everything" by mace when he dueled her and she even moved faster than him. with the text stating that Mace would have to fully surrender himself to Vaapad in order to beat her. There is no doubt that Billaba would completely devastate Kit Fisto with her skills with the Lightsaber.

Gnost is an incredible swordsmen, who is capable of chaining his lightsaber forms without any trouble, completely decimating young apprentices with his lightsaber prowess and holding out against three different opponents while recovering from torture. In a duel, i'm positive Gnost would win against Kolar. Force powers also go to him as his Force Waves are considerably powerful and his speed could obviously press Kolar. There is no doubt that Gnost would either outlast, defeat or overwhelm Kolar with his lightsaber mastery or his force skills.

Jaden is a powerful Jedi, skilled with the blade and with the force, having defeated the powerful Alpha clone, stalemated the Jedi master Relin, defeated Tavion/Ragnos, Alora and Boba fett. He is a skilled duelist using the Fast and Medium styles of the NJO. In a duel, I'm sure he could defeat Tiin as he was incredibly adept in the defensive style of the NJO. His force prowess is also incredible as he was able to withstand the combined telekinetic might of Runner(Kyle Katarn clone) and Soldier(Jaden Korr clone) though he was initially falling, he was able to summon a reservoir of strength and held his ground until Seer(The Lumiya clone) stepped in. This especially impressive, if you consider the fact that the clones share a bond and can feed off one another's emotions. Jaden could defeat Tiin in a duel or with TK.

Team 1 takes the win.

Originally posted by carthage
Team 1 has shit quality warriors, Jaden has beaten no one notable and isn't on the same skill tier as Fisto or Kolar both who are considered among the greatest warriors produced by the Jedi order.


**** off.

There is nothing impressive about killing non force sensitives. She moved faster than him due to the fact he was shot in the chest by a blaster bolt, had been treking in the jungle for days, was sleep deprived, and had been constantly fighting since he was on the planet. Mace even flat out stated he had no desire to fight her:



So her only skill feat takes place against fighting a Mace who was gravely injured, exhausted from battling/traveling through the jungle, had sustained injuries from fighting Vastor, and who was clearly not interested in fighting. He is plainly faster in normal condition, appearing to teleport from a blaster bolt, weaving webs of light, etc. Depa also was amped by dark rage to top it all of. She'd get stomped if she fought him under normal condition. Agen and Fisto are more skilled than her. She has no other dueling feats to compare to Fisto fighting faster than Obi wan could perceive, Fisto beating Grievous, Fisto blitzing Magnaguards, and Agen stomping Quinlan who was also considered one of the best Swordsmen produced by the order. Her fight/performace was entirely circumstantial.



Gnost beat featless darksiders who have no feats compared Quinlan Vos, General Grievous, or Obi Wan Kenobi. Agen ko'ed Vos without even trying with a single Kick, Vos has fought evenly with Tholme, beaten Sora Bulq, and is considered one of the best Swordsmen in the Jedi order. Gnost has no accolades or feats to compare to either in terms of dueling individuals of merit. Agen Kolar is considered one of the best swordsmen the Jedi order ever produced:






As for his force feats nothing suggests they'd bridge the gap in terms of their skill, Vos has levitated a boulder, thrown a speed, dodged blaster bolts, and dominated K'Kruhk with TK. Quinlan has superior force feats to Dural, and still lost to Kolar who wasn't even trying. Quinlan likewise has superior dueling feats to Dural, so there is no reason that a inferior swordsmen/force user to the guy Dural beat could take him


Gnost has no feats surpassing Vos dodging Vos's attacks with ease, and ko'ing him with a single kick.



None of those opponents really compare to Quinlan Vos, Grievous, Kenobi, or anyone who B team has defeated/fought evenly with



He knows multiple forms which is fine, but he's beaten no one in terms of skill to validate him being a superior duelist to Fisto or Kolar. Tiin's force feats also surpass Jaden's, Dural's, and Depa's by a decent margin. Tiin was considered t be one of the most powerful force users in the Jedi order:


--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #114

Jaden has thrown a boulder/toppled a pillar which are solid feats, but Tiin has thrown a battle droid 400 meters (further than Mace Windu), redirected missiles, lifted huge droid parts, and thrown a man with enough impact to crack a wall. Tiin's force feats are more precise, Tiin is a superior telepath, and would defeat Jaden in any force duel they'd engage in. For speed, Tiin has moved his blade fast enough to form a shield, moved fast enough to appear in three places, and moved his blade in a blur. Jaden has no speed feats to compare.

Jaden, Gnost, and Depa are inferior force users to all of B team, less skilled, and have no feats to compare to them at their best

Originally posted by carthage
There is nothing impressive about killing non force sensitives. She moved faster than him due to the fact he was shot in the chest by a blaster bolt, had been treking in the jungle for days, was sleep deprived, and had been constantly fighting since he was on the planet. Mace even flat out stated he had no desire to fight her:

And Depa was also in no condition to fight, she was frail and fragile and needed help to stand. and he didn't get shot, he got stabbed by Depa. He had slept and She had also been fighting for months. Anything else?



She was using Vaapad, of course she's drawing on the darkness. she's moved faster than him, she was stronger than him she was "Too everything" for him. She was forcing him into fully falling into Vaapad. Fisto fight with Grevious is circumstantial, The doctor droid stated that he needed rest yet he Still fought, he lost one of his arms early on due to debris. not to mention Fisto had the edge due to his fighting style and when did Fisto blitz Magnaguards?

Mace > Obi-Wan> Grevious > Fisto > Quinlan > Agen. Also, it's spelled "performance". what else you got troll boy?



He's created a near impenetrable wall of defense with Soresu, held out against Sith lord while he was still recovering from being tortured - torture that left his mind and body ravaged. Tholme got wrecked by dooku, what else? Sora Bulq? impressive. Agen is featless, his victory over quinlan was circumstantial, Was quinlan not under cover? would he try to kill a fellow Jedi?





We're not debating Quinlan Vs Gnost though. Did quinlan uses Force powers against Agen? Answer: No. Also, how do you "throw a speed"?



Aside from - you know, creating a near impenetrable wall with Soresu and moving so fast the people within the station thought their minds were playing tricks on them, killed a person in less then a second. Yeah, sure whatever dude.



Yeah, three extremely powerful clones who have an oroboros of power, were stated to have mastered basic and advanced force techniques, overwhelmed elite squads of Stormies & Droids, can use force waves strong enough to collapse a building and make a hospital look like it had been hit by a bomb are nothing special. A dark councilor is nothing special. Mace-mother****ing- Windu(added the mother****er part because it's samuel L jackson) doesn't really compare to them at all. lmao. Yeah, right. don't make me laugh.



Jaden was considered one of the most promising students of the NJO and is constantly praised by Katarn and Luke., Depa is praised by Yoda:

"Member of the Jedi Council, she is. Powerful Jedi. Brilliant warrior-"
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint.

--------

"If rogue she has gone. to find her, difficult it will be. To apprehend her." His voice dropped, as though the words caused him pain. "Dangerous, that will be."
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint(Yoda)

Gnost has been praised highly:

"I heard tales of your great battle prowess while I was on Tython." She told him.
―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 232)

----

Master Gnost-Dural's appearance was intimidating and unsettling. But Theron knew he was one of the most respected and honored Masters in the Order.
―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 109)

Having reviewed the file the Jedi sent over, however, Theron knew he was more than a mere historian. Gnost-Dural was also an accomplished warrior; he'd been battling the Sith ever since their startling reemergence on the galactic stage, longer than Theron had even been alive.
―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 110)

Credit to WildBantha88 for the quotes on Gnost.

Educate yourself before you spew your BS Carthage.



LMAO A battle droid? wow it's not like those are extremely weak or anything, I'm sure no one else has done that before. What's Telepathy got to do with a fight? Jaden has also moved his blade fast enough to form a shield and moved in a blur, who the hell hasn't? So, Tiin throwing a man is impressive, but when Bane does it to a group of people with enough force to completely obliterate their internal organs...it's not? Nice double standards, unsurprising, but still good to know.



if your uneducated in their prowess then sure. But if you do know of them. then you'd see that they are clearly heads and shoulders above B-team.

I've debated with much more impressive people than you, hell, i'm currently in a debating with someone who is heads and shoulders above you. You really ought to read up on your stuff, before you start spewing inaccuracies and idiocies. Team 1 wins, keep trying.

She was amped, and in better condition evidently, as Mace had been fighting ever since he left Pelek Baw and kept fighting, stabbed, sustained more injuries, and was disinterested in fighting her. Try reading the post again, she had multiple advantages that she doesn't have her. Fisto likewise is more skilled, as is Agen, who all have beaten opponents without the advantages she had when she engaged a beaten down/disinterested Mace.



She won't be amped in this fight given she isn't mad/wont be drawing on anything in a duel with Fisto. Her speed feats came as a result of being amped, this isn't hard to follow.



Bad analogy, Fisto's victory over Grievous came due to a stylistic advantage in his style not because he was fighting an injured, tired, and disinterested opponent. While he'd be hard pressed given the fact she uses a single blade, she has no other dueling feats to suggest she could beat him and he is still faster. As for his magnaguard feat he cuts them before they realize what happens:

-Labyrinth of Evil

He's also dodged blaster bolts, fought faster than Obi wan could perceive, and fought in a "blur of light with Ventress". He is faster than anyone on team 1 and more skilled as well.




Cool story bro, bringing up the fact other's trashed Quinlan doesn't debase the fact that he has more impressive feats than any of the people on team 1. Agen being called one of the most skilled Jedi ever produced by the order, beating Quinlan who has beaten Sora Bulq (who pressured Mace Windu), are more important feats of skill tha anything displayed by the fighters in team 1. This isn't a hard train of thought to follow, Team 1 has more skilled fighters due to fighting individuals who actually have significant accolades or showings.



You stated Gnost or Jaden would beat Agen through the force, I pointed out Quinlan's feats which surpass Gnost's/are comparable to Jaden to point out that is untrue. Vos has better force feats than Kolar, but still lost a duel due to being outskilled. You have provided no feats to suggest that their force abilities would outweigh Agen's skill.




So its unimpressive when Tiin throws a droid and kills hordes of droids with Mace, but impressive when featless clones kill them? Lmao. Nice double standards kid.




Please stick to the points.



I've never dismissed Depa's skill, she just doesn't have the feats to compare with anyone on B team.



Post the quotes if he has then, it's that simple. If he has then they're on the same speed tier, also Tiin has moved fast enough to appear three places at once which is likely a superior feat given you've provided nothing to prove otherwise.





Lmao the only double standard that exists is yours which I've pointed out twice now. You aren't very good at sticking on topic Bane has nothing to do with this fight.



Prove me wrong by posting their feats then.



http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee424/Fakade000/OhHeMad-1.jpg

I'm 'antagonizing' him but he makes posts like this?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy





**** off.










Lol.

Team 1 stomps!

Et tu Arhael...?

Originally posted by carthage
Et tu Arhael...?
When it comes to B-team, I value them very low, sorry.

He does have a point, Fated. Don't fall for the temptation!

Carthage you put to much faith in Vos. He is skilled no doubt about that but he is far from the best in his era. He beat Volfe due to BM and spent the majority of his duel with Sora getting toyed with, he only beat Sora because Sora got sloppy.

Anyways, undecided. Contestants on Team 1 are B-Team level with Korr clocking in slightly above and Depa slightly below.
That being said, Team 2 has experience working together on multiple fights so that advantage might tip the odds.

In all seriousness Jaden alone defeated Marka Ragnos who not only was considered the most powerful Sith of his time but also had access to power of multiple Force nexuses absorbed by his skepter and that's before his prime. Jaden alone should be able to dismiss B-team in sabers or with Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
In all seriousness Jaden alone defeated Marka Ragnos who not only was considered the most powerful Sith of his time but also had access to power of multiple Force nexuses absorbed by his skepter and that's before his prime. Jaden alone should be able to dismiss B-team in sabers or with Force. if you believe that then consider that there has been a big thing on Jaden vs Gnost recently with no clear winner.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
if you believe that then consider that there has been a big thing on Jaden vs Gnost recently with no clear winner.
Don't care really.
If people choose to dismiss the fact that Jaden before his prime defeated one of the most powerful ancient Sith aided by skepter that absorbed multiple potent nexuses, it is their prerogative.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't care really.
If people choose to dismiss the fact that Jaden before his prime defeated one of the most powerful ancient Sith aided by skepter that absorbed multiple potent nexuses, it is their prerogative. I see you chose to take that as meaning "Jaden sux because he is Gnost level" But Gnost is an extremely skilled swordsmaster. He is easily among the top jedi of his era.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I see you chose to take that as meaning "Jaden sux because he is Gnost level" But Gnost is an extremely skilled swordsmaster. He is easily among the top jedi of his era.
I don't know anything about him but I am fine with him being among the top of his era. Makes it even more amusing that some people think that B-team can somehow win.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Carthage you put to much faith in Vos. He is skilled no doubt about that but he is far from the best in his era. He beat Volfe due to BM and spent the majority of his duel with Sora getting toyed with, he only beat Sora because Sora got sloppy.
And he also beat Bulq at his prime, unlike when he lost to Kolar.

And Fisto's defeat of Grievous was also circumstantial, and well before the good General's peak.

Originally posted by carthage
She was amped, and in better condition evidently, as Mace had been fighting ever since he left Pelek Baw and kept fighting, stabbed, sustained more injuries, and was disinterested in fighting her. Try reading the post again, she had multiple advantages that she doesn't have her. Fisto likewise is more skilled, as is Agen, who all have beaten opponents without the advantages she had when she engaged a beaten down/disinterested Mace.

If you're going to state facts, get them right. Mace wasn't "disinterested" he didn't want to fight Depa, because he didn't want to hurt her. Yet, despite that, she was still forcing him to fall into Vaapad, both were fragile, weakened, both had been fighting - one for months, the other for a week. Get it right.



She speedblitzed 24 men, moved her blade "faster than the eye could follow" and before that - her blade seemed everywhere to Mace. The text never states that she is drawing on a "Nexus" during these feats and before that, on a mission to Nal Hutta, Mace stated that Depa surpassed him in Blade-work.



Cool story, where's your proof that Grevious wasn't injured and in a weakened state?



Cool, Gnost has moved faster. Your concession is very graciously accepted.




You do realize i could just end this by saying the name "Marka Ragnos" right? who like Tiin and Kolar, is surrounded by a great number of accolades. So, no team 2 isn't as impressive as you think.



Quinlans fight with Bulq was after his fight with Kolar, I'm sure it's logical to assume that he trained in that time frame and got better and before that Dooku called Quinlan's skill atrocious. So, Agen fought a less skilled Quinlan.



lol @ featless. check down below for an answer to your little find of my "alleged" double-standards.



Please stick to an argument that does not contradict past points, Calling mace weak when compared to Grevious, Kenobi and Kit is not something i expected of you.



Right, like she couldn't beat Tiin or Kolar.



He moved and killed someone in less than a second....



lol way to get all riled up over me making a Joke. That feat of theirs is real, but insignificant - If I had actually found this feat impressive, i would have mentioned it in my debate with Bantha. lol nice job making of fool out of yourself.



Sure, maybe later. Kinda busy today. But i won't ignore my favorite guy on KMC



http://m.memegen.com/afwcj8.jpg

I dedicate this cough syrup drink to you!

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Fisto's defeat of Grievous was also circumstantial,

It will be enormously entertaining to watch you try and fail at making your case here, so please do so.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Cool story, where's your proof that Grevious wasn't injured and in a weakened state?
He actually wasn't. He replaced his body parts in the same episode.

But Fisto was hiding in mists and taunting, which provoked Grievous to overreach with desperate attack that cost him an arm.

Jar'kai seems to work better against Grievous. No one was able to legitimately defeat him in sabers including Windu except Ventress. Anyway Fisto at best managed to drive Grievous back a bit and used a Force push to put him on his ass. In the same episode, Fisto is unable to defeat Grievous even with his apprentice attacking from opposite side and clone troopers helping.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And he also beat Bulq at his prime, unlike when he lost to Kolar.

Tbh, Just read most of Quinlan's story arc recently, and I gotta say he's actually seemed somewhat stagnant.

He outright begged her not to fight him =lack of interest, and she was amped when she fought him. She won't have that amp as per battle rules she won't be mentally compromised like when she fought him, and either of the fighters whether its Fisto or Tiin have superior feats to her one duel which had multiple advantages stacked against Windu that were beneficial toher.




I never stated she was drawing on a nexus, granted there would be darkside energies from the bloodshed that was present and the narrator references that somewhat:



Mace also feels dark power from Depa after they clash blades:



Also Mace is notorious for lavishly giving accolades upon his contemporaries, and I never denied that Depa was skilled. She just has no feats other than her one showing where multiple advantages were stacked in her favor. None of these factors are present in the fight, and she has no other feats to draw inference from to gauge how skill she is in comparison to Fisto/Kolar. Not much can be gauged from a fight when she has a circumstantial amp, and she is fighting an opponent who absolutely doesn't want to fight her/is exhausted and injured.



What are you talking about? The only person who was in a weakened state was Mace when Depa fought him, that's what I meant her fight was circumstantial with him when you tried to compare both situations (when they are incomparable).



He moved faster than non-force sensitives could perceive, which you know is easy for even Padwans to do? As for his other speed feats they're inferior to the ones I listed. Even the Magnaguards Fisto killed could replicate Dural's feat as per having speed comparable to force sensitives (which are faster needless to say than the soldiers Dural moved past)



He beat a weakened Ragnos's spirit, and Ragnos is nothing but hype (unlike Darth Reave) for the most part. Jaden could likely beat Ragnos too given Ragnos has no real showings to his name other than his vaunted status as being a noted past Ancient Sith



That's nice? Not really comparable to dodging blaster bolts, cutting Magnaguards to pieces before they could react, and moving faster than someone like Obi wan could even react too.



You claimed I had 'double standards' relating to Tiin throwing a droid and the droid being fodder, yet seemed to have no qualms about citing a similar of Jaden beating fodder stormtroopers/droids (non force sensitives) as well. You find a certain feat impressive is cute and everything, but dismissing one I pointed out while citing you're aforementioned similar one is indeed a double standard. Kthx.

Originally posted by Arhael
He actually wasn't. He replaced his body parts in the same episode.

But Fisto was hiding in mists and taunting, which provoked Grievous to overreach with desperate attack that cost him an arm.

Jar'kai seems to work better against Grievous. No one was able to legitimately defeat him in sabers including Windu except Ventress. Anyway Fisto at best managed to drive Grievous back a bit and used a Force push to put him on his ass. In the same episode, Fisto is unable to defeat Grievous even with his apprentice attacking from opposite side and clone troopers helping.

He couldn't read between the lines, he didn't mean to say Grievous was injured.

LOL im sorry carthage I cant resist. "Easy for padawans"? You must be high, drunk, or just out right stupid to think that his space station feat is replicateable by padawans.

Gnost-Dural was little more than a blur of motion and movement as he raced through the corridors of Reaver Station. The imperial soldiers he flew past reacted with a mix of surprise, curiosity, and alarm, but he came and went so fast that none of them fully realized what had happened. Left in his wake, they exchanged a few puzzled glances with their friends, then laughed off the odd but seemingly harmless encounter as their minds convinced them that the person who'd just ran past couldn't possible have been moving that fast.

LOL at padawans doing that ^^

He moved as a blur to non force sensitives, that's quite a common result for guys that can move faster than non super human beings's ability to perceive. If Dural had fought faster than being X could perceive, and the guy he fought had good speed feats of his own it might be impressive.

TPM Kenobi replicated moving a blur in the opening scenes of the Phantom Menace, what is so special about what Dural did?

Originally posted by carthage
He outright begged her not to fight him =lack of interest, and she was amped when she fought him. She won't have that amp as per battle rules she won't be mentally compromised like when she fought him, and either of the fighters whether its Fisto or Tiin have superior feats to her one duel which had multiple advantages stacked against Windu that were beneficial toher.

She has speed on her side and even before in a stupid sparring Match she seemed like she was - and I quote "Everywhere" In sparring matches, the duelists hold back a hell of a lot, Just how fast would Depa be if she actually went all out? Hell, her speedblitz of 24 men(in under a minute) was in her weakened state.



Yeah, he's vague about it though - until Kar Vastor comes into play that is. For the entire Gunship fight sequence with Mace and Depa nothing stated she was being amped.



That was with Kar Vastor iirc



Alright, there are a bunch of things wrong with that argument and I'm sure you know it:

- Mace is notorious for that yes, however even Yoda deems her dangerous.

- Circumstantial like Fisto's fight with Grevious? where not only was the General weakened but also was at a disadvantage due to Fisto's form specialization? not to mention this was well before the General's peak.

- Kolar fought a weak version of Quinlan.



I accept your Concession on the fact that both Depa and Mace were in weakened states.



I lol'ed hard. Gnost has moved with speed that Sith could not react too.



LOL and Tiin supposed skill doesn't come from pure Hype?

All he has are a few good TK showins, a sparring match and.... Oh yeah, he gets blitz by Sidious. what else is there? Don't be a hypocrite Carthage, Tiin is almost as featless as Ragnos and has only a few good showings even those aren't enough.



That was AOTC Obi-Wan no? I already put his feats you just choose to ignore them and lowball them.



LMAO. It seems you're reading ability is somewhat off today:

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
lol way to get all riled up over me making a Joke. That feat of theirs is real, but insignificant - If I had actually found this feat impressive, i would have mentioned it in my debate with Bantha. lol nice job making of fool out of yourself.

I never claimed that I found that impressive. I was simply making a "Joke" - mocking your attempts at making Saesee Tiin's feat of TKing a droid seem impressive, when a number of people have also done that - and better.

Also, It was The thrawn Clones(Lumiya, Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, Kam Solusar and Jaden clones along with two other clones of Unknown Jedi) that slaughtered this apparently elite squads of Stormies and Droids(I say "apparently" because Stormies are fodder)

I assume what follows will be, a string of responses that completely ignore my points, a "smart" comment, more BS and the continuation of your lowballing characters. I look forward to seeing all of this. But thank you for conceding your "Quinlan" point and your "Mace being the only weakened one point", it's much appreciated.

---------

In closing: (Got shit to do atm)

Kit Fisto may be fast, but Billaba is just as fast. and could overwhelm him with her speed and blade prowess.

Agen Kolar's dueling feats are sketchy at best, he beat a less skilled Quinlan Vos and? Gnost has dueled on a place Strong with the dark side and has shown himself a Master of multiple forms and is just as skilled with the force. Gnost would win. plain and simple.

Saesee Tiin has some good TK showings, no doubt about it, Jaden has better, sending a boulder flying, bring down a large pillar and having to adjust it to use it as a bridge, withstanding the combined might of Two powerful clones - including the strongest of them -Soldier, he has Force griped an escape pod pulled him towards him at an incredible speed and used the force to push said Escape pod away from a ship by literally pushing against a ship with the force. Jaden is a better duelist and Force user, He would be the victor in the end.

Team 1 wins. Though it's not at all a "stomp" or a "slaughterhouse' It's a good fight.

B team

You have no problem accepting the validity of Depa's feats in spite of having virtually no other showings (like Tiin) I can see. Also I don't really care about entertaining your theoretical notion of "how fast she might be". Again fighting faster than non force sensitives or beings that can't compete with Jedi speed isn't impressive compared to the showings of B team.



Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And Depa was also in no condition to fight, she was frail and fragile and needed help to stand. and he didn't get shot, he got stabbed by Depa. He had slept and She had also been fighting for months. Anything else?



She was using Vaapad, of course she's drawing on the darkness. she's moved faster than him, she was stronger than him she was "Too everything" for him. She was forcing him into fully falling into Vaapad

So was she amped or not? You're being inconsistent. If she was amped by Vaapad as you stated on Page 1, then any and all of her speed feats would be a result of her Vaapad amp which was circumstantial due to where she was fighting Mace. She won't receive such a amp in this battle, and you can't even seem to clarify your position as to whether or not she was amped.




The Jungles of Haruun Kal radiated with darkside energy, and where they were fighting there had been a battle and people died. There would've been some residual darkside energy there, not enough to make her 00ber but enough to put her above an injured Windu in speed. You also admitted she was amped due to Vaapad.



Wrong.

Shatterpoint, Pg 391

She already had her lightsaber in hand, and its irrelevant or not if Vastor was present there or not. As the text shows there was residual darkside energy present that she drew upon.



Which says nothing about her skill/feats . Yoda also deemed the Yinchorri dangerous, and other random things in his time. That says nothing about her skill as a duelist, and he only did so with reference to the people on Haruun Kal.



Please learn to delineate between examples, Fisto is just as skillfull and a superior swordsmen to Depa. Any advantage in his form is completely a separate issue to an amp Depa received by circumstance due to fighting in a place at least radiating in dark power somewhat. So what if he wasn't at his peak, Depa has no showings to compare to Fisto's defeat of him, fighting faster than Obi wan could perceive, and wrecking magnaguards.



You criticize me for lowballing yet you did just that? Regardless, Vos beating Aayla, beating Bulq, and fighting Tholme are still superior feats to anything shown by team 1. Bulq was also considered one of the best swordsmen the Jedi ever produced, no one on team 1 has bested someone on that caliber.




You and I had both already made that a point? How can I concede to something that you also acknowledged? She also had an additional amp, and Mace had no desire to fight her which you keep leaving out. Do I need to repeat that she has no other showings in comparison to the duels of B team?



That would be laughable if the Sith Gnost beat had any feats that compared to Kenobi's, Grievous's, Vos's, Tiin's, or Fisto's speed. If they don't have comparable feats of speed, than it's completely irrelevant to whether or not he was faster than them- because he'd still be slower than either Tiin or Fisto.



You seem to have no problem accepting sparring matches as valid showings for Depa, and no problem accepting hype for Ragnos. I never even made a reference to Tiin's skill with a blade, I've brought up his force feats the entire time. He is considered one of the best bladesbeings of the order, and that alone by implication (which you base your assessments of Depa/Ragnos o) would still put him at least on a high tier.



It was Kenobi not long into the Clone wars, and by that time he was already well above Qui Gon in terms of speed. Qui Gon has formed shields out of his blade, dodged blaster fire from 4 shooters, fought imperceptibly fast, run in a blur (Gnost Dural's feat), and formed blurs with his blade.

In fact Obi wan was already faster than Qui gon by the Phantom Menace:



So Fisto being above Qui Gon, AOTC Kenobi, and surpassing the aforementioned speed feats would put him well above the showings of team 1, as you've provided nothing to surpass the showings I've listed.



Which is why you tried to reference Depa's circumstantial feat of a sparring match, attempted to pass of Jaden's lame feat of killing stormtroopers and droids (as an attempt at humor) no less . Please try to stay on point.

Team 1.

And steal your thunder with such wonderful revelations such as these?:







The classic pot calling the kettle black.



Correction Depa is approaching his speed when she has a Vaapad amp in a bunker with residual darkside energy, she has no speed feats elsewhere that I'm aware of. Also how could she overwhelm him when she is featless aside from her circumstantial/amped showing with Windu? You have no basis for that statement, seeing as she has no other duels.



There is nothing "Sketchy" about him ko'ing Vos (who is still more skilled than any team 1 duelist). His single showing and status as one of the best Swordsmen ever produced by the order puts him well above Gnost beating Sith of no repute, also "Forms" still is no replacement for no one on team 1 beating opponents like Bulq/Vos/Grievous. So I regret to inform you kiddo, it isn't as plain and simple as you'd like it to be.



Tiin lifting and actually supporting the weigh of a massive droid part is more impressive than toppling a pillar:

http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/album/pr/mace_a10_800x600.jpg

Tiin redirecting multiple missiles as a feat of precision is more impressive than throwing a boulder:

http://www.starwarsforums.org/gallery/Star-Wars/Saesee-Tiin-Feats/tiin-missile-feat-part-3-pic_124.htm

http://www.starwarsforums.org/gallery/Star-Wars/Saesee-Tiin-Feats/tiin-missile-feat-part-5-pic_126.htm

Lifting the weight of that huge droid piece > pushing an escape pod.

And to reiterate no one on Team 1 has beaten opponents on the caliber of Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos, General Grievous, or fought faster than Kenobi. Beating random Sith, clones, a weakened Sith spirit, fighting with an amp against an injured/uninterested Mace, are all inferior showings.

and yet you still lowball Gnost defeating all of those sith despite the book stating twice that they were one a very powerful darkside nexus, so CLEARLY the sith were amped and that means Gnost defeat of them should be impressive, no? And if the increase of power that the sith got isn't enough it also stated that the nexus made Gnost physically ill. So amped sith, weakened Gnost, still unimpressive?

im just trying to see your logic, because nexus's and amps are very important to you.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
and yet you still lowball Gnost defeating all of those sith despite the book stating twice that they were one a very powerful darkside nexus, so CLEARLY the sith were amped and that means Gnost defeat of them should be impressive, no? And if the increase of power that the sith got isn't enough it also stated that the nexus made Gnost physically ill. So amped sith, weakened Gnost, still unimpressive?

im just trying to see your logic, because nexus's and amps are very important to you.

Its a good feat but if you read the post, none of those Sith have done anything remarkable. Who have the Sith beaten that compare to fighting two of the best Swordsmen produced by the Jedi order?. A nexus doesn't increase the skill of the Sith.

Originally posted by carthage
Its a good feat but if you read the post, none of those Sith have done anything remarkable. Who have the Sith beaten that compare to fighting two of the best Swordsmen produced by the Jedi order?. A nexus doesn't increase the skill of the Sith. It would, however, increase their speed and Gnost moved faster than one of them could even register and speed blitzed another in less than a second. Still unimpressed?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
It would, however, increase their speed and Gnost moved faster than one of them could even register and speed blitzed another in less than a second. Still unimpressed?

You're bringing up a separate issue. I asked specifically what those Sith have doe to make beating them a comparable feat to any of the duels fought by B team. As for his speed, yeah its a good showing but at best there is nothing else that would make him any faster than Qui gon Jinn. The nexus would've hindered him but that says nothing about how fast he is on neutral terrain, only that he's faster than random Sith with no showings that are amped.

As far as the skill of the opponents go, the two apprentices were unimpressive and Gnost was familiar with Darth Karrids style so his defeat of her was circumstantial, although he was clearly a million times better than her as well.

The two sith lords Lord Quux and Lord Ordez have a single accolade. Gnost-Dural, a master of 4 forms with skill in all seven forms, noted that each of them possessed impressive skill.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
As far as the skill of the opponents go, the two apprentices were unimpressive and Gnost was familiar with Darth Karrids style so his defeat of her was circumstantial, although he was clearly a million times better than her as well.

The two sith lords Lord Quux and Lord Ordez have a single accolade. Gnost-Dural, a master of 4 forms with skill in all seven forms, noted that each of them possessed impressive skill.

I was going to make an edit to my first post calling him the most skilled Swordsmen on team 1. But for all of that none of those Sith rank any higher than the Magnaguards Fisto killed, and even at his best he's only on Quinlan Vos's tier whom the Jedi are superior too. Gnost could likely take Tiin in a saber duel, but lose in a force fight/all out fight imo.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
As far as the skill of the opponents go, the two apprentices were unimpressive and Gnost was familiar with Darth Karrids style so his defeat of her was circumstantial, although he was clearly a million times better than her as well.

The two sith lords Lord Quux and Lord Ordez have a single accolade. Gnost-Dural, a master of 4 forms with skill in all seven forms, noted that each of them possessed impressive skill.
To be fair Bantha, you can't really use hype given from the character you are debating to try to hype up those he killed.
The point of you debating now is to hope to get your character to a stage where saying they are impressive matters.

I'd put him at Vos's/Tiins/Qui Gon's tier as as an all out fighter 1 per Bantha winning his debate with Fated, and beating Sith on a darkside nexus which I thought was a superior feat to anything displayed by Jaden.

2/3 of the b-team is all based on hype so I don't see how using hype in my corner can be frowned upon

Originally posted by WildBantha88
2/3 of the b-team is all based on hype so I don't see how using hype in my corner can be frowned upon

Agen Beating Vos who defeated Bulq isn't hype though, its a skill feat that surpasses anything shown by Team 1 .

1. Vos wasn't at his peak when he fought Agen.

2. Vos's beating Sora was circumstantial. Sora toyed with him the entire duel and could have beat him any time until at the end he started getting sloppy.

Vos beating Sora was also after his fight with Agen IIRC.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
1. Vos wasn't at his peak when he fought Agen.

2. Vos's beating Sora was circumstantial. Sora toyed with him the entire duel and could have beat him any time until at the end he started getting sloppy.

Proof that he was sloppy, that's your opinion not a quantifiable fact that lessens Bulq's skill.

Who cares if Vos wasn't at his peak, Vos still has superior dueling feats to anything displayed by team one. I don't think you know the meaning of the word "circumstantial":

Depa being amped by residual darkside energies from a battle that killed people, dueling an opponent who was injured/uninterested in dueling, is a circumstantial fight due to factors at the time.

Originally posted by carthage
You have no problem accepting the validity of Depa's feats in spite of having virtually no other showings (like Tiin) I can see. Also I don't really care about entertaining your theoretical notion of "how fast she might be". Again fighting faster than non force sensitives or beings that can't compete with Jedi speed isn't impressive compared to the showings of B team.

http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/jennifer-aniston-laughing.gif

Let's see some of your past theoretical notions hm?

- Saesee Tiin sparred with Mace. That must mean Tiin = Mace and Tiin is > Kas'im because of it. Even though in sparring matches they clearly hold back, if you believe otherwise than you concede that the HOU is on the highest tier possible.

- The Inquisitor TK'ed Kanan and despite having no other showings. He > Sirak Because he Tk'ed Kana, so he has to be good amirite?

Also by that logic, Fisto's Magna guard speed is also unimpressive due to it being fighting with great speed "against non force sensitves and beings that can't compete with Jedi speed"



She was amped in her fight against Mace because she was using Vaapad, you git, I was saying that nothing states she was amped during the gunship sequence. You even answered it down below. Nice to see you can't make a point without twisting my words.



In her fight against Mace Look at the damn text again, git.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah, he's vague about it though - until Kar Vastor comes into play that is. For the entire Gunship fight sequence with Mace and Depa nothing stated she was being amped.


Nice to see you can't win this without cutting out the rest of the text or twisting my words.



LMAO, Present or not? Nice trick if you were up against someone who didn't read the novel, but i finished it Days ago, and Vastor was present



It speaks of her overall prowess. She was dangerous, not to mention he does praises her as a warrior:

"Member of the Jedi Council, she is. Powerful Jedi. Brilliant warrior-"
--Shatterpoint.



Speedsblitz 24 armed men in less then a minute, moved faster than the eye could follow, but you'll just keep ignoring that



Dude, give something that's HIGHLY impressive from Aayla and Tholme. Agen only beat a unskilled Quinlan Vos even Dooku regarded his skill as atrocious, it wasn't until Quinlan trained that He bested Bulq. Stop trying to make it seem as though Kolar beat Quinlan at his peak, because that is BS.




Yeah, he had no desire to fight her, Again I reiterate, She still was forcing him into falling fully into Vaapad because she was too strong, too fast and too everything for him

How many times do I have to repeat that.



What Speed does Tiin have lmao, Vos? you mean Vos before his time? because that's the one Tiin fought. I already gave you their feats, you just ignore them, because you're a troll.



Dude, I said, that Depa did that in a sparring match and I even admitted that she held back because it was a freaking sparring match, All i stated was that "Even in a sparring match her blade seemed everywhere, imagine if she was being serious' I wasn't being a dumbass and saying "She sparred with Mace, she WTFPWNS111!!" don't twist my words. as for the ragnos thing, I Called featless dude, Hell yesterday Tempest and I talked about ranking people solely on accolades and I stated this:

@ Fated Xtasy : And Ragnos?
Tempest : Yep.
@ Fated Xtasy : Huh, ironically, i don't rank Ragnos that high. Saesee tiin and Hord as well, they are too unexplored to be ranked fairly and correctly

Stop twisting my words, Carthage.




That's impressive, but the same could be said for all of team 1.



It's not Jaden's feat dumbo, it's a feat for the clones, it was a joke, what do you want me to get you the Webster dictionary so you van understand the meaning of that word?. And i already explained the Depa thing.

Regardless, Team 1 wins. This conversation is over. I concede nothing.

Dude, you just tried to pass off Depa sparring with Mace as a feat on page 1. What proof do you have they are holding back, and never once in this debate have I ever even bought up Tiin sparring with Mace. I said he was one of the best duelists in the order, and that at least by reasonable inference would place him as a good duelist (note I even said Gnost Dural was better in sabers). Bringing up my past posts is not relevant to the discussion at hand, and again I haven't even been speaking about his skill so much as the proven abilities of Kolar/Fisto.



I gave a clear explanation of my opinion in my thread. Sirak only bested Bane due to Bane's connection to the force being compromised. The Inquisitor in his duel took out two guys at once, and my reference to his superior force abilities is due to Sirak having next to no showings that compare to that TK feat. They're both featless, but one's dueling feat i,e the Inquisitor is superior in my opinion.



It would mean something if random guards were equal to Magnaguards who were built specifically for the express purpose of killing Jedi . Magnaguards are faster than human guards:



Magnaguards were specifically built to fight Jedi, and they can operate at the speed of force sensitives unlike the guards that Dural ran faster than. I've never denied they were fodder, but Fisto dismembering them before they react is still a superior speed feat than appearing as a blur to normal human beings.




Yet you continually try to represent her amped duel as her actual combat speed, and your point is moot considering the jungle would've amped her regardless as it did to Vastor. I didn't twist your words you just can't type clearly evidently.



I guess it would matter if those guys were 24 magnaguards or at least a being that is capable of perceiving the movements of a force sensitive?




If you were following the debate I've listed them multiple times on the prior pages, Saesee has formed a shield out of his blade, moved fast enough to appear in three places, moved his blade as a blur, etc.. I won't bother listing Vos's because you can just go back and see them yourself. You never posted the quotes for Jaden's, Gnost is slower than Fisto and Tiin, and that's about it. Cry more.



I could care less for your conversation with Tempest, and I never ever brought up Tiin's duel with Windu in this conversation. You're bringing up irrelevant nonsense.





It would if Gnost had speed feats that put him above Qui Gonn, Depa had any feats at all, and you actually posted the speed feats for Jaden from your respect thread.



All that to say you bow out of the debate without even challenging the fact that the fighters of B team are more skillfull, faster, and better duelists than the characters you wank over?

Your inadvertent concession is accepted, then.

Arguing in favor of B-team does not make sense. Accolades cannot be quantified. Non of B-team have any decent feats. All they have is a fight against Sidious, where they proved to be complete trash, which proves them to be some of the least impressive characters in the mythos.

I never stated they were the best in the Mythos, I just said they outskilled/were more powerful than Team 1 when I beat Fated in the argument.

I hate B team, but they're still superior characters to the random losers on team 1.

Can someone post Depa's sparring match against Mace btw? I'd like to read through it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Can someone post Depa's sparring match against Mace btw? I'd like to read through it.

It was more or less just a small excerpt. no more than thirteen words long, I could get it for you if you want?

Eh, screw it, here's the excerpt:

"...lightsaber against lightsaber in the Temple's training halls, the green flash of Depa's blade seeming to come from everywhere at once."
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint

If it isn't any trouble, could you give the surrounding text so I can make sense of the line?

Originally posted by Arhael
Arguing in favor of B-team does not make sense. Accolades cannot be quantified. Non of B-team have any decent feats. All they have is a fight against Sidious, where they proved to be complete trash, which proves them to be some of the least impressive characters in the mythos.

Not you Marco...not you..

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If it isn't any trouble, could you give the surrounding text so I can make sense of the line?

No trouble at all dude Here ya go:


-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint

Also, that seems like a nice little accolade for her too. This will look great on the respect thread.

Originally posted by Marco1907
B team

I just like Arhael's post.

Tbh, B-Team were nothing more than Mace Windu's sidekick team. Maybe Kit Fisto you can argue, but still they were under the Mace's command.

At least they are not alone, here is C-Team ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-DarkTimesmdashASparkRemains003-023_zps754bf74c.jpg

Originally posted by Marco1907
At least they are not alone, here is C-Team ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-DarkTimesmdashASparkRemains003-023_zps754bf74c.jpg (carthage logic) Sidious beats four weakened mook jedi, so what? Kit Fisto has defeated Kenobi and Grievous.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
(carthage logic) Sidious beats four weakened mook jedi, so what? Kit Fisto has defeated Kenobi and Grievous.

Your logic would be to get 3 random near featless characters, lose an argument and continue to call the guy who beat you "biased".

Bantha's not calling the guy who beat him biased, he's calling you biased...

Originally posted by carthage
I never stated they were the best in the Mythos, I just said they outskilled/were more powerful than Team 1 when I beat Fated in the argument.

I hate B team, but they're still superior characters to the random losers on team 1.
I read some of your points about Depa Bellaba.

Yes, Windu did not perform the best he could because he did not want to use Vaapad. But state of mind related performance is a marginal difference. That doesn't suddenly make Windu ten times weaker. Depa "was too strong, too fast, too everything". Had he used Vaapad he would defeat her but it would still be a difficult fight because Vaapad is just state of mind, it's not a significant amp.
Also, it is actual real fight to death. Saesee, Agen and Fisto don't have anything even remotely as impressive. On top of that Windu stated that he is probably the only one who can defeat her.

About Jade Korr. Again unlike those three he has a feat of fighting ancient Sith Lord amped by skepter that absorbed ton of Force. Yes, we don't know much about Marka Ragnos but probability wise chances that the most powerful of his time Sith who reigned over 100 years is below b-team dudes is incredibility thin. And that's without taking into account farther advantage gained from the skepter. Jaden defeated him before even reaching his prime.

Don't know anything about Gnost-Dural but the other two are already more than enough.

B-team proved to be trash, when facing Sidious. I just can't accept that Depa and Jaden could be even easier opponents for Sidious than B-team despite having far better feats. That would be too trashy trash.

After humiliating Fated the discussion continues..




She was "Too, fast, too strong" etc due to her being amped and drawing on the residual darkside energies of the bunker. She doesn't outskill him and isn't even approaching him in terms of feats, nor is she as skilled or has as many showings as Fisto or Kolar. Either of these fighters are approaching him in skill and have the showings to back it up, whereas, Depa has only an amped showing with a myriad of other factors that benefited her. Also lol @ Vaapad being merely a "state of mind", if it were anything less than an amp it wouldn'tve allowed him to survive as long as he did against Sidious



She'd fare no better against Palpatine than Saesee, Agen, or Fisto. He's just that good, and yes they do in terms of showings. Fisto has bested Grievous, blitzed multiple magnaguards, and fought faster than Obi wan could perceive, and Agen has best Quinlan Vos with consummate ease. Depa has no showings by virtue of her own skill to compete, and Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin are considered among the best bladesbeings produced by the order- which is an accolade substantiating their showings (which already alone are superior to the fighters on team 1:






In other threads you've made the claim B team are "nothing but hype", but here you're making a special pleading for me to accept nothing but hype for Marka Ragnos . Ragnos has done nothing specifically to put himself above any of the Jedi I've mentioned, all of his sources are either base speculation and or hype. Also Jaden beat him as a Sith spirit which is when he would be at his weakest, all this on top of him being featless. Jaden has beaten no one superior to Bulq, Vos, Grievous, or Kenobi- let alone anyone even remotely comparable.




Not seeing how that's relevant to this fight, if he struggles with all of his featless opponents. He is going to get lolstomped by these Jedi



I'd love to see any evidence that team 1 could even beat Bulq, Vos, Grievous, or Kenobi (based on feats not speculation). None of these fighters on either team would win against Palpatine, but that's because he's just that good not because of any deficit in B team's abilities. Nice false comparison though, considering team 1 hasn't even beaten opponents on the level of the folk I listed in this argument for B team

Originally posted by WildBantha88
(carthage logic) Sidious beats four weakened mook jedi, so what? Kit Fisto has defeated Kenobi and Grievous.

You aren't very bright to make that comparison but try to understand the difference. For one the text says those Jedi are starved, and secondly using Sidious as grounds for a comparison is a sign you are desperate, butthurt, and grasping at straws. Not that you have much to draw on for the fighters of team 1 though LOL