SS4 Gogeta va All

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Time Immemorial
SS4 Gogeta no time limit on fusion

vs

Everyone in DBZ and DBGT Universe

AsbestosFlaygon
He can't beat Beers, Whis, SSG Goku, and probably SSJ2 Vegetto.

As well as the other gods stronger than Whis.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
He can't beat Beers, Whis, SSG Goku, and probably SSJ2 Vegetto.

As well as the other gods stronger than Whis.

Huh!?

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Huh!?
What?

Are you wondering about the other "gods"?

I read somewhere online (it was in Japanese) Akira Toriyama said that there are characters stronger than Beers and Whis, which will be introduced soon.

Time Immemorial
SS4 was roflstomoping Omega, how is anyone in Z verse beating him?

Galan007
Gogeta wins, and comfortably so.

BloodRain
thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Gogeta wins with a fart.

Yamcha
I hope on everything that Akira does go the way of introducing more Gods that dwarf Bills an Whis in power and goes into establishing a Multiverse within the DBZ franchise cause it's certainly not out of question Akira comes up with someone who can eventually top even SSJ4 Gogeta but at the moment SSG an Bills don't come close to the power levels we've seen in GT.

I hope on everything as a fan of DBZ that he starts going a lot more cosmic with the power, as in fights where characters are getting knocked through multiple planets, powering up shakes the universe and eventually gets to the point someone powering up can be felt through the other universes maybe even causing destruction in those universes as a mere side effect but until then SS4 is reigning supreme, and SSJ4 Gogeta is at the top of the food chain.

Sacred 117
Originally posted by Yamcha
I hope on everything that Akira does go the way of introducing more Gods that dwarf Bills an Whis in power and goes into establishing a Multiverse within the DBZ franchise cause it's certainly not out of question Akira comes up with someone who can eventually top even SSJ4 Gogeta but at the moment SSG an Bills don't come close to the power levels we've seen in GT.

I hope on everything as a fan of DBZ that he starts going a lot more cosmic with the power, as in fights where characters are getting knocked through multiple planets, powering up shakes the universe and eventually gets to the point someone powering up can be felt through the other universes maybe even causing destruction in those universes as a mere side effect but until then SS4 is reigning supreme, and SSJ4 Gogeta is at the top of the food chain.

To strive for a deeper narrative would be great too, but yeah.

thumb upthumb upthumb upthumb up

naurtoisbeast
Originally posted by Sacred 117
To strive for a deeper narrative would be great too, but yeah.

thumb upthumb upthumb upthumb up Originally posted by Sacred 117
To strive for a deeper narrative would be great too, but yeah.

thumb upthumb upthumb upthumb up i think gogeta will win here

Sacred 117
Originally posted by naurtoisbeast
i think gogeta will win here

Don't quote me, you f**k! Naruto is not best. thumb down

StealthRanger
Naruto is shit, more appropriately

NemeBro
Much like the Star Wars EU. thumb up

StealthRanger
To each his own

Q99
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
He can't beat Beers, Whis, SSG Goku, and probably SSJ2 Vegetto.

As well as the other gods stronger than Whis.

Well, I'd say he can beat those, but SSJ2 Vegetto especially shouldn't even be close. He's a higher form based on stronger base forms of the same people. The difference between earing and dance fusion isn't *that* big, to make up for either of those factors, let alone both.

NotAllThatEvil
Originally posted by Yamcha
I hope on everything that Akira does go the way of introducing more Gods that dwarf Bills an Whis in power and goes into establishing a Multiverse within the DBZ franchise cause it's certainly not out of question Akira comes up with someone who can eventually top even SSJ4 Gogeta but at the moment SSG an Bills don't come close to the power levels we've seen in GT.

I hope on everything as a fan of DBZ that he starts going a lot more cosmic with the power, as in fights where characters are getting knocked through multiple planets, powering up shakes the universe and eventually gets to the point someone powering up can be felt through the other universes maybe even causing destruction in those universes as a mere side effect but until then SS4 is reigning supreme, and SSJ4 Gogeta is at the top of the food chain.

So if you were in charge of dragon ball, you'd just expand the b-list?

cdtm
Gogeta beats everyone. Even Bills.

If Vegeta could amp up enough to draw blood and shake him up a second, there's no way Gogeta has a problem.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Galan007
Gogeta wins, and comfortably so.

Not if he messes around for 10 minutes. vin

Q99
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not if he messes around for 10 minutes. vin

No time limit. He can mess around and still win.

Crimson Dragoon
Originally posted by Q99
Well, I'd say he can beat those, but SSJ2 Vegetto especially shouldn't even be close. He's a higher form based on stronger base forms of the same people. The difference between earing and dance fusion isn't *that* big, to make up for either of those factors, let alone both.

A hypothetical SSJ2 Vegeto wouldn't even beat Great Ape Baby, tbh, let alone SSJ4 Gogeta

Q99
Originally posted by Crimson Dragoon
A hypothetical SSJ2 Vegeto wouldn't even beat Great Ape Baby, tbh, let alone SSJ4 Gogeta


Lesse, you have a high base Vegeta, then amped by the other saiyans, SSJ2, then x10 for ape.... that is rather a lot.

Crimson Dragoon
Yeah, Baby Vegeta had some insane boosts

His base form shrugged off a punch from SSJ3 GT Goku, whose base form is stronger than some form of Majin Buu

Then his next form was said to have the greatest Saiyan power achieved at that point, which Goku agreed with and went on to say it's the most amazing ki he's ever felt. Plus two more forms after that, including the Great Ape with the aforementioned multiplier, which puts Baby well past even a SSJ3 Vegeto

Galan007
Think about it...

As a SSJ3, Goku was absolutely nothing in comparison to Baby Vegeta. When Goku ascended to SSJ4, however, not only did he become powerful enough to easily stomp Baby Vegeta, but he was also powerful enough to match Oozaru Baby Vegeta.

Assuming the Oozaru multiplier was the same in GT, it means Baby would've gleaned a 10x increase in power from the form. Subsequently, this means that SSJ4 was more than 10x> SSJ3. Cray Cray.

Q99
In Goku's case, there's also the matter that it undoes the minuses that come with kid form.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not if he messes around for 10 minutes. vin

OP says no time limit, assuming if there was a time limit of 30 minutes, with his speed and strength, he could one shot everyone in via IT.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Q99
No time limit. He can mess around and still win.

Aw crap, I missed that.

Crimson Dragoon
Originally posted by Galan007
Think about it...

As a SSJ3, Goku was absolutely nothing in comparison to Baby Vegeta. When Goku ascended to SSJ4, however, not only did he become powerful enough to easily stomp Baby Vegeta, but he was also powerful enough to match Oozaru Baby Vegeta.

Assuming the Oozaru multiplier was the same in GT, it means Baby would've gleaned a 10x increase in power from the form. Subsequently, this means that SSJ4 was more than 10x> SSJ3. Cray Cray.

Goku more than likely got progressively stronger from there as well, judging from his performance as a Super Saiyan against Super 17 compared to Uub

Uub in the previous arc managed to force Baby to exert some semblance of effort during their beam struggle while Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 got swatted aside. But later on, Uub literally does nothing to Super 17 while Goku as a mere Super Saiyan manages to have far more of an effect when he punched 17 across the planet

bbrem123
To be honest I think any character at god level status wins here. That was the point of introducing that tier of power. He was so far beyond every other characters power that they could not even sense how strong he was.

Where as with SS4 Gogeta they could sense how strong he was

SSJGGogeta
I don't think so.

God ki and regular ki are two very different things. I read an interview somewhere saying that godly ki was basically just a stronger form of ki that had more potency. From that, and the fact that Goku could use it from a concentration of a shite ton of ki in the first place, I assume that with enough ki, you could find some way to concentrate your ki enough to attain godly ki. I think that's the reason that Vegeta was also able to do damage to Bills in SSJ2. Not because he was as strong as Bills, but because he was so mad that he was able to invoke godly ki by trying to so hard.

I would also assume that to be the reason that SSJ1 Goku could fight Bills after going SSJG for the first time.

It's just an assumption, but I think it makes more sense than a special type of ki that can be overpowered by enough PIS.

Either way, the power that SSJ4 Gogeta has demonstrated is just too ridiculously high for anyone else in all of DB/DBZ/DBGT to contest against, and that's WITH the 15 minute time limit, that he doesn't have in this thread.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
He can't beat Beers, Whis, SSG Goku, and probably SSJ2 Vegetto.

As well as the other gods stronger than Whis.

I think he's a bit above Whis actually, as in GT, it's already been at least ten years since he fought Beerus.

Plus... It's Gogeta... SSJ4 Gogeta...

bbrem123
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I don't think so.

God ki and regular ki are two very different things. I read an interview somewhere saying that godly ki was basically just a stronger form of ki that had more potency. From that, and the fact that Goku could use it from a concentration of a shite ton of ki in the first place, I assume that with enough ki, you could find some way to concentrate your ki enough to attain godly ki. I think that's the reason that Vegeta was also able to do damage to Bills in SSJ2. Not because he was as strong as Bills, but because he was so mad that he was able to invoke godly ki by trying to so hard.

I would also assume that to be the reason that SSJ1 Goku could fight Bills after going SSJG for the first time.

It's just an assumption, but I think it makes more sense than a special type of ki that can be overpowered by enough PIS.

Either way, the power that SSJ4 Gogeta has demonstrated is just too ridiculously high for anyone else in all of DB/DBZ/DBGT to contest against, and that's WITH the 15 minute time limit, that he doesn't have in this thread.

I see where you come from but I just cant agree.

Goku has become a deity now( in beerus's own words )

Goku's base form could compete with Beerus where as Mystic Gohan and every other hero got trashed with chopsticks...

Base form Goku is greater than every other hero combined now, never mind super saiyan god.

Galan007
You're forgetting the ridiculously insane GT multipliers, though. SSJ4 Goku, for example, was literally thousandS of times more powerful than he was in Z(sans Godly ki.)

That said, none of the ownage Beerus dished out in BoG was indicative of him being 'thousands' of times more powerful than his opponents. Why? Because in DBZ, you don't need to be 'thousands' of times more powerful than someone to effortlessly stomp them. A prime example: Goku(pre-zenkai) vs. Recoome. Recoome's PL was ~45,000; Goku's was 90,000. Despite the fact that Goku was 'only' 2x more powerful than Recoome, he still casually KO'd him in one shot... And I can list at least half-a-dozen similar examples if need be.

In short: nothing Beerus(and by proxy, SSJG Goku) did imply that they were remotely close to SSJ4 Goku's level... Let alone SSJ4 Gogeta, who is so far beyond Goku(or anyone else for that matter) that's it's hard to even conceive.

Point: SSJ4 Gogeta beats everything that has ever existed(to date) in the DBZ mythos with ease... And if it took him more than 2 blasts to do so, I'd be surprised.

bbrem123
multipliers are fine and all but the feats say otherwise.

Goku and Beerus were moving so fast that time was stopped. Nobody in DBGT showed speed even close to that. Not even SS4 Gogeta.

The Godly Ki was on another level. A level that was beyond anything they could comprehend. It is beyond all this power level multiplier nonsense. You can add up all the numbers you want but no matter how high they get they are still below Godly Ki.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
multipliers are fine and all but the feats say otherwise. Feats do not tell us that Beerus/SSJG Goku were 'thousands' of times more powerful than the others. As I already mentioned: a mere 2x difference in power is sufficient to effortlessly stomp your opponent with one blow(Goku vs. Recoome.)

Other examples:
Nappa vs. Tien.
Goku vs. Jeice/Burter.
Base Freeza vs. Nail.
4th form Freeza(3% power) vs. Vegeta.
SSJ Trunks vs. Freeza/Cold.
Imperfect Cell vs. Piccolo/#17.
SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell.
Etc. Etc.

The largest power differential out of those listed above is probably base Freeza(PL=530,000) and Nail(PL=42,000), but even that 'only' equates to a difference of 12.6x. none

Remember, after the Freeza saga, an increase of 2x(the difference between SSJ and SSJ2) was touted as gargantuan. During the Buu saga, an increase of 4x(the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3) was touted as inconceivable--otherworldly, even. A power boost of 'thousandS' of times in BoG just cannot be supported by anything we saw.

That being said, Beerus/SSJG Goku could have been 2,000x more powerful than the others, and according to multipliers/logical power-scaling, they still wouldn't even be half as powerful as SSJ4 GT Goku(yes, SSJ4 Goku was at least 4,000x more powerful than he was in Z--I've explained why several times in the past)... Never mind SSJ4 Gogeta, who is several orders of magnitude beyond even Goku.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Goku and Beerus were moving so fast that time was stopped. Nobody in DBGT showed speed even close to that. Not even SS4 Gogeta. I assume you're referring to the water droplet scene? If so, time slowed relative to Beerus and Goku, but it certainly didn't 'stop'.

SSJ4 Gogeta blitzed Omega Shenron, who easily trounced SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta, who were thousandS of times more powerful than they were in Z. Blitzing an opponent of that magnitude --with NO effort whatsoever-- is a much greater showing of speed, imo.

Originally posted by bbrem123
The Godly Ki was on another level. A level that was beyond anything they could comprehend. It is beyond all this power level multiplier nonsense. You can add up all the numbers you want but no matter how high they get they are still below Godly Ki. Wanking the bejesus out of Godly ki doesn't change anything I've said. smile

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Feats do not tell us that Beerus/SSJG Goku were 'thousands' of times more powerful than the others. As I already mentioned: a mere 2x difference in power is sufficient to effortlessly stomp your opponent with one blow(Goku vs. Recoome.)

Other examples:
Nappa vs. Tien.
Goku vs. Jeice/Burter.
Base Freeza vs. Nail.
4th form Freeza(3% power) vs. Vegeta.
SSJ Trunks vs. Freeza/Cold.
Imperfect Cell vs. Piccolo/#17.
SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell.
Etc. Etc.

The largest power differential out of those listed above is probably base Freeza(PL=530,000) and Nail(PL=42,000), but even that 'only' equates to a difference of 12.6x. none

Remember, after the Freeza saga, an increase of 2x(the difference between SSJ and SSJ2) was touted as gargantuan. During the Buu saga, an increase of 4x(the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3) was touted as inconceivable--otherworldly, even. A power boost of 'thousandS' of times in BoG just cannot be supported by anything we saw.

That being said, Beerus/SSJG Goku could have been 2,000x more powerful than the others, and according to multipliers/logical power-scaling, they still wouldn't even be half as powerful as SSJ4 GT Goku(yes, SSJ4 Goku was at least 4,000x more powerful than he was in Z--I've explained why several times in the past)... Never mind SSJ4 Gogeta, who is several orders of magnitude beyond even Goku.

SS4 goku/gogeta feats dont show that they are thousands of times stronger either. I am going by the movie and it is plain as day that Beerus and Goku were beyond conventional power levels.

Hell even the dragon was sh*tting his pants at the sight of Beerus.

Originally posted by Galan007
I assume you're referring to the water droplet scene? If so, time slowed relative to Beerus and Goku, but it certainly didn't 'stop'.

SSJ4 Gogeta blitzed Omega Shenron, who easily trounced SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta, who were thousandS of times more powerful than they were in Z. Blitzing an opponent of that magnitude --with NO effort whatsoever-- is a much greater showing of speed, imo. I just dont see it as superior. Goku and Beerus fought for a solid 20 seconds before the water actually fell. That is only because goku lost his God form too.


Originally posted by Galan007
Wanking the bejesus out of Godly ki doesn't change anything I've said. smile

Not wanking anything. It was said in the movie that the godly ki was beyond all of them. You are lowballing the sh*t out of it and trying to use all this multiplier chap to justify your case.
SS4 Gogeta's power was very high yes, but they were still able to sense and understand how strong he had become.

Im going by the movie, and the movie makes it very obviously that they have ascended to new level. Beerus even calls Goku a deity.

This logic with power level multipliers does not work in the case of Beerus and Goku. No matter how bad you want them too.

All the feats in BoG's are greater than anything I have seen by a SS4. You are only guessing to how many times stronger they were in the movie to make your case. There is no actual proof because there powerlevels were incalculable to every character there. (minus whis the only other god)

Im using the feats (greater than any shown in GT) and statement by Goku and Beerus to prove they are far superior. All im getting from you are irrelevant multipliers.

I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one. Just one of those things

Crimson Dragoon
SSJ Goku reacting to Super 17's blasts which were covering a significant portion of the planet in seconds is probably a better speed feat than anything seen in BotG

Also, BotG continues from the manga canon while GT is from the anime canon, the anime having better feats than the manga in general

Pure powerscaling, the gods of BotG are the only things greater than Vegeto while GT has Vegeto being outclassed with the intro of Super Baby Vegeta, with Baby having two more forms after that. SSJ4 Goku beat him, then Super 17 after absorbing the 10x kamehameha beat SSJ4 Goku (who is significantly stronger in that arc than the Baby one as I've noted before), then Goku gets outclassed yet again by Syn Shenron. Syn then gets beat down by SSJ4 Goku after the latter surpasses his limits.

I think everyone knows how the powerscale works from there

bbrem123
ss4 goku was cut by glass...gt was a bunch of shit the feats are as inconsistent as the power levels. (which have no sway over god goku/beerus anyways)

Crimson Dragoon
Low showings happen, big deal

Goku was getting pummeled through large rock formations consistently in GT anyway without bleeding profusely from the experience

Some people are just going to have to live with Vegeto being weaker than Baby Vegeta's second form

bbrem123
That is just one of the many example of how the power scaling does not match any performance shown in GT. Like I said none of that matters when talking about Beerus and God Goku anyways. They are at a high state of being now.

Yes, SS4 Gogeta is the top of there tier. Beerus and Goku are in another tier now. But even they are at the bottom of this superior food chain.

Crimson Dragoon
The only other low showing I can think of is Goku in base form being unable to lift a building, but DB isn't big on lifting feats in general anyway

The rest is just very low collateral damage for people who are way above casual planetbusters, which has always been a thing in DB as well

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
SS4 goku/gogeta feats dont show that they are thousands of times stronger either. I am going by the movie and it is plain as day that Beerus and Goku were beyond conventional power levels. Before Goku accessed Godly ki in BoG, he was still unable to defeat Freeza in his base form. Fast-forward to GT, and BASE Goku was able to stalemate Rildo, who he confirmed was MORE powerful than Majin Buu. BASE Goku was able to casually stomp both Perfect Cell AND Freeza. BASE Goku was able to contend decently against Nuova Shenron. Etc.

It goes like this:
SSJ4 Goku 10x>(at the very least) SSJ3 GT Goku 4x> SSJ2 GT Goku 2x> SSJ GT Goku 50x> base GT Goku~Rildo>Majin Buu~SSJ3 Z Goku. ie. the difference between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ3 Z Goku is no less than 4,000x. If you don't believe me, crunch the numbers yourself.

It may seem stupid(because it is), but that's simply how absurd the GT multipliers were... And that was just Goku. We are talking about SSJ4 Gogeta in this thread. Logically he'd be tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Hell even the dragon was sh*tting his pants at the sight of Beerus. This is not a feat. Piccolo was shitting his pants when the Dai Kaioshin appeared at the WMAT, yet the Kaio wasn't very powerful at all(relative to the Z Fighters of course.)

Originally posted by bbrem123
I just dont see it as superior. Goku and Beerus fought for a solid 20 seconds before the water actually fell. That is only because Goku lost his God form too. SSJ4 Gogeta casually blitzing Omega Shenron is a vastly better speed feat than water droplets falling slowing around Goku/Beerus as they fought, imo. Why? Because Omega Shenron was several orders of magnitude more powerful than Beerus/Goku, thus was logically several orders of magnitude faster than Beerus/Goku. In DBZ, power and speed almost always go hand in hand--the stronger one gets, the faster one gets.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Not wanking anything. It was said in the movie that the godly ki was beyond all of them. You are lowballing the sh*t out of it and trying to use all this multiplier chap to justify your case. a.) Yes, they said Godly ki was a very uber level of power. However, BoG obviously didn't take GT into consideration, given that GT is non-canon to Z. Therefore anything stated about the power of SSJG/Beerus only accounted for manga-based info.

b.) Lowballing? I am simply telling you how powerful GT characters were. Denying it to this extent just makes you look silly.

Q99
Originally posted by bbrem123
That is just one of the many example of how the power scaling does not match any performance shown in GT.

GT has the highest physical strength feats of any Dragonball, and the highest chain of who-beats-whom.




Other way around, SSJ4 Gogeta solidly is higher up pretty much however you count it.


Aside from GT having clearly higher base forms, SSJ4 is another tier above SSJ3, and Fusion is always at *least* a tier up. So SSG being above SSJ3 and such doesn't help too much.

Crimson Dragoon
Originally posted by Galan007
BASE Goku was able to contend decently against Nuova Shenron. Etc.


Being fair, Nova was in his heat armor form at that time, and Goku spent most of the fight running away from him because of Nova's heat aura

Goku was still fast enough to evade him and blast him with a kamehameha though

Nova's golden form is about as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku (before he surpassed his limits anyway), but faster

Galan007
Oh, I know. I'm just saying that for only being in his base level, he did pretty darn good.

Crimson Dragoon
Ah, alright then

Anyway, since I'm bored as hell and it might be useful for future reference, the DBGT foodchain which basically sums up my thoughts:

SSJ4 Gogeta >>>>>>(add a lot more > signs)> Omega Shenron (he claims to be at least 10x stronger than his previous form, likely even more) > SSJ4 Goku (limits surpassed) > Syn Shenron > SSJ4 Goku (Super 17 Saga) > SSJ4 Goku (Baby Saga) > Great Ape Baby Vegeta (a ten times multiplier as said before) > Super Baby Vegeta 2 > SSJ Goku (Super 17 Saga, he did more to 17 than Uub did) > Super Uub (forced SBV 2 to exert some effort) > Super Baby Vegeta 1 > SSJ Vegeto

Galan007
You can probably add a few more ">" symbols between Omega and the rest, considering the ease in which he stomped both SSJ4 Goku AND SSJ4 Vegeta simultaneously.

It's also worth noting that Goku stated Super Baby Vegeta had the greatest ki he'd EVER felt. And given that Z is canon to GT, this just serves as additional proof that Baby Vegeta-level power(and above)>>>>>>>anything in Z(Buuhan and Vegito notwithstanding.)

Crimson Dragoon
Yep, plus Goku agreed with Baby's assertion of him gaining the greatest Saiyan power

bbrem123
All of these calculation are great. I'm happy for you ss4 Goku is 4000x stronger with no feats to support.

Still have not seen where God goku fits in to all of those numbers. Oh wait he doesn't fit because he is on a higher level of ki so

you can't calculated it...only speculate. His feats were superior imo. Including the speed one. Only because his God form ran out did he slow down.

Once again all of your numbers mean nothing.

Beers was so strong he beat evey hero with chopstick and touched vegeta to ko him...touched

You can even take his planet destroying feat at the end of he movie to show beerus's superior strength. Along with the fact they were tearing through the earth like paper while fight.


Like I said superior feats...

Galan007
You either haven't read the posts, or are just flat-out ignoring them, but everything I(and others) have mentioned is feat/fact-based.

Not saying Beerus/SSJG Goku aren't extremely powerful... But GT was just so far beyond Z that even their power pales in comparison. Agree with it or not, those are the facts...

bbrem123
it is actually funny that you guys think ss4 is 4000x than dbz ss3. You sound like h1. And that is not a good thing.

Hell they should all be walking around destroying universes with the power you say they haha hahah. And Goku gets cut by glass and can't life a city ha. He who saga was low end showing haha

bbrem123
Hey are not facts and Im sorry you think they are. Please tell me where they fit. I didn't know God ki was gauge in power levels. Sorry if I missed.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
You either haven't read the posts, or are just flat-out ignoring them, but everything I(and others) have mentioned is feat/fact-based.

Not saying Beerus/SSJG Goku aren't extremely powerful... But GT was just so far beyond Z that even their power pales in comparison. Agree with it or not, those are the facts... going by you ss4 Goku would trash galactus...

Yamcha
Man I know GT is considered non canon and all but with BOG an the talk about other universe's it would be cool if they delved into that more and as an introduction to the concept one of the other verses is GT, and it's just where like Z being the main universe we know where Battle of Gods took place but in GT all that never happened and that universe took another route, it would be interesting to see our Goku/Vegeta's opinion on SS4 and other stuff (Like Vegeta commenting on his counterparts stupid haircut an being like "HAH WHAT'S NEXT, A MUSTACHE?!" or something lol).

Maybe even have it where at the end the two actually face off where Z Goku an Vegeta are SSG's facing their SS4 Counterparts (Akira obviously giving the Z verse a huge boost maybe explaining it like they're almost fully tapping into the SSG power) an maybe for the Z verse they're fighting evenly but then the SSG power up expires and they get knocked back and Goku is like "Man haha these guys sure are something else...Super Saiyan 4 is unreal!" but they somehow muster it again but maybe an even stronger form of it an later it ends in a fusion battle where the Z verse overcomes SS4 Gogeta with a Super Saiyan God fusion or something. Idk I'm hooked on this idea of other universes still lol.

Q99
Originally posted by bbrem123
All of these calculation are great. I'm happy for you ss4 Goku is 4000x stronger with no feats to support.

Still have not seen where God goku fits in to all of those numbers. Oh wait he doesn't fit because he is on a higher level of ki so

you can't calculated it...only speculate. His feats were superior imo. Including the speed one. Only because his God form ran out did he slow down.


f you think the speed difference is just speculation, why do you think it's superior?





Ok? Do you think there's anything odd about a villain beating every DB hero without being touched?

GT goes through several levels of "Way more powerful than anything that came before."


We know a fusion absolutely leaves the originals in the dust. SSJ1 Vegetto was >>> SSJ3 Goku after all, and even > Mystic Gohan. Gotenks was stronger than Goku too, for that matter.

SSJ1 Vegetto was much above anyone who Beers was ignoring. Not enough to win, by word of Toriyama, but considering Beers could feel a hit by Vegeta, Vegetto was clearly, by feats, in a range where he could put up a fight.

And that's just a fusion SSJ1.

SSJ4 >> SSJ3, SSJ3 was curbstomped by a foe much weaker than SSJ4. SSJ3 >> SSJ1, obviously.

A fusion SSJ4... is something else.

Even if SSG is a 100x multiplier over SSJ3, it is not enough to overcome the combination of Fusion bonus and SSJ4 bonus and higher base form bonus...






Base-form GT Goku was stronger than SSJ2 DB Goku.

Ultimate Perfect Cell is equal to a SSJ2, Base GT Goku was handling that no problem, without even a contest.

SSJ3 is base times a lot. What do you think the multiplier over base form is? We can use whichever numbers you'd like.


SSJ4 is, at least, whatever you think that is, x10, since it's at least equal and possibly better than Oozaru transformation, which is x10.




Remember, the Dragonball franchise has had an individual *story arcs* where the characters improve by more than a thousand times. Goku when he arrived at Namek was 90k. When he was done with Freiza, he was 150 million.

This type of power up is completely normal in this franchise. Individual story arcs often have power ups of 10x.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Galan007


Wanking the bejesus out of Godly ki doesn't change anything I've said. smile

No but wanking you mightsmile

Crimson Dragoon
Just to drive the point even further home, actual screenshots:

http://i.imgur.com/bX6fm6k.png
http://i.imgur.com/FiPYOuU.png

Q99
To borrow a phrase, "and that isn't even his final form!"

this is his final (human-sized, not counting Oozaru) form


The form before the one Crimson posted (that is to say, this one) was about equal to SSJ3 GT Goku.


The guy's got two levels above SSJ3, the first of which makes him the most powerful in the universe, and that still isn't enough to take on SSJ4.

bbrem123
still dont see where god goku fits in your scaling?

great he has never felt a power like that. At least he could sense it. God goku is on a level that is beyond them sensing there power...

bbrem123
Originally posted by Q99
f you think the speed difference is just speculation, why do you think it's superior?

Im not talking about the speed feat. Im talking about speculation to his power level. You are making up numbers of what you think. There is no actual power level. I go by the feats and the statement in BoG. Goku even explains how the god form is beyond him and how he dislikes that. Unlike SS4.

Originally posted by Q99

Ok? Do you think there's anything odd about a villain beating every DB hero without being touched?

What? I didnt even say he wasnt touched. I said he touched vegeta on the forehead and koed him.

We know a fusion absolutely leaves the originals in the dust. SSJ1 Vegetto was >>> SSJ3 Goku after all, and even > Mystic Gohan. Gotenks was stronger than Goku too, for that matter.


Originally posted by Q99

SSJ1 Vegetto was much above anyone who Beers was ignoring. Not enough to win, by word of Toriyama, but considering Beers could feel a hit by Vegeta, Vegetto was clearly, by feats, in a range where he could put up a fight.
wrong. He says they wouldnt even stand a chance even if they fused.

Originally posted by Q99

Even if SSG is a 100x multiplier over SSJ3, it is not enough to overcome the combination of Fusion bonus and SSJ4 bonus and higher base form bonus...

"Even if" ahahaha. exactly, you have no clue how he stands to ssj3.

How can you sit here and argue he is weaker when you have no power level or anything of the sort to gauge. At least I have a stance with what they say about godly ki and how it is on a different level. As well as the feats presented in the movie, which where superior imo.

Hell im not even against people arguing ss4 is stronger. You have your points of view and that is great. The fact that you think it is no contest stomp is a joke and I cant take it seriously.

I love how all these power level mutlipliers are being thrown around when they dont apply to godly ki...

Hell Beerus destroyed multiple planets at the end of the movie. That right there is the best physical feat of any series.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
it is actually funny that you guys think ss4 is 4000x than dbz ss3. You sound like h1. And that is not a good thing.

Hell they should all be walking around destroying universes with the power you say they haha hahah. And Goku gets cut by glass and can't life a city ha. He who saga was low end showing haha I like how you're getting hyper-defensive and throwing out childish insults just because no one agrees with you. This borders on trolling, "and that is not a good thing." smile

Anyway, h1's 'calcs' are never accurate. The ones I listed, however, are based exclusively on canon material--I didn't just pull random numbers out of my ass. That said, they're as accurate as we can get, based on the information provided.

And for the record: nothing I've said is indicative of GT characters being able to "walk around destroying universes"--that little gem was just part of your own hate-fueled rant/agenda.

bbrem123
I am just trying to make the point that power scaling means nothing with Whis, Beerus and Goku. Completely different scale of Ki imo.

I guess we just disagree. We both made our cases pretty obvious.

Also I'm sorry about that post as well. No hard feelings. I am just frustrated at how different are views are. It was immature on my part.

Galan007
No worries.

Ending on a positive note is fine by me. smile

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by bbrem123
I see where you come from but I just cant agree.

Goku has become a deity now( in beerus's own words )

Goku's base form could compete with Beerus where as Mystic Gohan and every other hero got trashed with chopsticks...

Base form Goku is greater than every other hero combined now, never mind super saiyan god.

That's fine. You don't have to, the facts are there.

That means nothing. Kami was a god before it was cool, and you see where that got him.

Goku's base got pwned by Bills. Only with SSJG could he compete with his 70%, even after he absorbed godly ki into his other forms.


That's not true. SSJ2 Vegeta actually drew blood from Bills. Goku only managed to absorb his attack, and that was still only with SSJG.

In fact, Vegeta is now one of the strongest, and Goku only surpasses him with SSJG. Either way, if SSJ2 Vegeta can draw blood from Bills in DBZ, then I'm pretty sure GT SSJ4 Gogeta can kill Whiss with an accidental shart.

bbrem123
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That's fine. You don't have to, the facts are there.

That means nothing. Kami was a god before it was cool, and you see where that got him.

Goku's base got pwned by Bills. Only with SSJG could he compete with his 70%, even after he absorbed godly ki into his other forms.


That's not true. SSJ2 Vegeta actually drew blood from Bills. Goku only managed to absorb his attack, and that was still only with SSJG.

In fact, Vegeta is now one of the strongest, and Goku only surpasses him with SSJG. Either way, if SSJ2 Vegeta can draw blood from Bills in DBZ, then I'm pretty sure GT SSJ4 Gogeta can kill Whiss with an accidental shart.

Im not arguing my points any further.

I disagree with the power scaling and it being used to gauge Godly Ki. It is a power Goku could not even fathom and could not be reach by himself. Unlike SS4.

Time Immemorial
Brem makes a point that God Ki is above anything they have ever dealt with. They could not even sense it. Goku's base form with God Ki might rival anything in GT now.

Also about vegeta drawing a small drop of blood from Bills, could be just like when glass scratched SS4 Goku.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Brem makes a point that God Ki is above anything they have ever dealt with. They could not even sense it. Goku's base form with God Ki might rival anything in GT now.

Also about vegeta drawing a small drop of blood from Bills, could be just like when glass scratched SS4 Goku.

you see what im getting at thumb up

We dont really know what was up with SS2 Vegeta. He surpassed even SS3 Goku(and we have no clue by how much). They gave Vegeta that shining moment to show he has the same potential to be on God Goku's level. That is how I took it at least.

carver9
Originally posted by bbrem123
multipliers are fine and all but the feats say otherwise.

Goku and Beerus were moving so fast that time was stopped. Nobody in DBGT showed speed even close to that. Not even SS4 Gogeta.

The Godly Ki was on another level. A level that was beyond anything they could comprehend. It is beyond all this power level multiplier nonsense. You can add up all the numbers you want but no matter how high they get they are still below Godly Ki.

Burta was so fast he moved through time stop and he still would get wrecked by anyone here (and he was much slower than Goku). Don't think speed is the issue here.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by carver9
Burta was so fast he moved through time stop and he still would get wrecked by anyone here (and he was much slower than Goku). Don't think speed is the issue here.

I swear you wank Burta more then anyone else, but yea laughing

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by bbrem123
Im not arguing my points any further.

I disagree with the power scaling and it being used to gauge Godly Ki. It is a power Goku could not even fathom and could not be reach by himself. Unlike SS4.

You're not arguing them. You're neglecting the simple facts.

SSJ2 Vegeta bloodied Bills. That proves that regular ki CAN affect Godly ki, if it's strong enough. SSJ Vegetto would wreck Bills.

Goku DIDN'T reach SSJ4 by himself. He had the help of the moon, and Pan. He had to gain control of his Golden Oozaru form, which can't be invoked without Blutz waves from the moon.

Same principal as having the power of multiple pure hearted Saiyan's. Just a different source. Not to mention that SSJ4 let him fight on par with someone 50 times stronger than someone who pwned him as a SSJ3.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Brem makes a point that God Ki is above anything they have ever dealt with. They could not even sense it. Goku's base form with God Ki might rival anything in GT now.

Also about vegeta drawing a small drop of blood from Bills, could be just like when glass scratched SS4 Goku.

They also couldn't sense the androids, but it doesn't mean they're on some other tier of power.

All that means is that they weren't used to that type of energy.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
They also couldn't sense the androids, but it doesn't mean they're on some other tier of power.

All that means is that they weren't used to that type of energy.

They could not sense the androids based on the fact they were machines and did not have any, god ki is actually present as Bills stated, but Goku and Vegeta could not sense it till they got attuned.

cdtm
Originally posted by bbrem123
you see what im getting at thumb up

We dont really know what was up with SS2 Vegeta. He surpassed even SS3 Goku(and we have no clue by how much). They gave Vegeta that shining moment to show he has the same potential to be on God Goku's level. That is how I took it at least.

Makes about as much sense as GT Vegeta surpassing Gohan.

Who had a SSJ form again, for some reason.

Q99
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

SSJ2 Vegeta bloodied Bills. That proves that regular ki CAN affect Godly ki, if it's strong enough.

Yes, quite. The movie itself shows that while Godly Ki is a very nice boost, it is not total invulnerability by any means.




No, most definitely not making up numbers.

All the "This is stronger than that," stuff is feats shown on-screen. We have Baby Vegeta specifically shown to be much stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku, fact, not speculation. We have GT Goku's base form shown to be above DB SSJ2 level from his fight with Perfect Cell, fact, not speculation. We have the Oozaru 10x multiplier, which is known and directly stated numerous times in DB, fact, not speculation.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it speculation.


SSG Form is beyond BotG Goku. SSJ4 is beyond GT Goku. You're speculated that this makes SSG better, but the actual feats and number of shown power up and size of said power ups is in GT's favor.


A SSJ2 is capable of hurting Bills, if not very much. A SSJ3 from a higher base was not a match for a guy who was 1/10th as strong as a SSJ4.


And that's before even getting into fusion!

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
They could not sense the androids based on the fact they were machines and did not have any, god ki is actually present as Bills stated, but Goku and Vegeta could not sense it till they got attuned.

Um, the androids did have ki, as even Cell stated that he had to absorb the ki of the androids. Only difference is that they didn't have life force, which made them impossible to sense. The point though, is that it doesn't matter if they can't sense you. Goku couldn't sense Arale either, but I'm pretty sure he would crush her.

Not just that, but Whiss isn't that much stronger than Bills. Toriyama put SSJG Goku at a 7, Bills at 10, and Whiss at 15. This means Bills is 30% stronger than SSJG Goku, and Whiss is 50% stronger than Bills, or 80% stronger than SSJG Goku.

Now, Base GT Goku was stronger than "Buu's strongest form", which was Buuhan. This means a good comparison is that GT base kid Goku > Base DBZ Vegetto.

So, since SSJ3 was weaker than Base Vegetto by a wide margin, and SSJG is a 50X boost to SSJ3, this means that SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku. As much as Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. This could be 30% greater, or even more, but I'll be fair and say greater than or equal to.

This means Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, SSJ2 is a 5X boost to SSJ1, so, since Whiss is only 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, that means he's less than 2 times stronger than SSJG, and in association, less than LESS than 2 times stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. Theoretically, Kaioken X2 Super Vegetto would beat Whiss. However, assuming he had SSJ2, he would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss.

This means SSJ2 Vegetto >> Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, let's look at GT Kid Goku, who was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger than Base Vegetto.

This means that if SSJ2 Vegetto could beat Whiss, then SSJ1 GT Goku could probably beat him too. So, all in all, at the bare minimum, SSJ2 Goku would stomp Whiss.

SSJ3 is a 10X boost to SSJ2. This makes SSJ3 GT Goku at LEAST 30 times stronger than Whiss. SSJ4 is a 50X boost to SSJ3, possibly more. Just like SSJG, as SSJ4 let Goku fight someone who was 50X stronger than someone who casually stomped him as a SSJ3. So, this means SSJ4 Goku would be AT LEAST 1,500 TIMES STRONGER THAN WHISS. This is before even getting into fusion, so this argument is just silly. thumb up

bbrem123
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, quite. The movie itself shows that while Godly Ki is a very nice boost, it is not total invulnerability by any means.




No, most definitely not making up numbers.

All the "This is stronger than that," stuff is feats shown on-screen. We have Baby Vegeta specifically shown to be much stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku, fact, not speculation. We have GT Goku's base form shown to be above DB SSJ2 level from his fight with Perfect Cell, fact, not speculation. We have the Oozaru 10x multiplier, which is known and directly stated numerous times in DB, fact, not speculation.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it speculation.


SSG Form is beyond BotG Goku. SSJ4 is beyond GT Goku. You're speculated that this makes SSG better, but the actual feats and number of shown power up and size of said power ups is in GT's favor.


A SSJ2 is capable of hurting Bills, if not very much. A SSJ3 from a higher base was not a match for a guy who was 1/10th as strong as a SSJ4.


And that's before even getting into fusion!

Where are the power level shown from BotG's? I have never seen them. There ki is on a different level. All you can do is speculate at the power levels.

Like I said. There is no actual numbers regarding BotG powerlevels.

You have no idea how high Vegeta even amped so still irrelevant.
Stil speculation. BotG's pretty much established that changing forms to increase power is not needed any longer. SS3 is old news and most likely will never be need.

bbrem123
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Um, the androids did have ki, as even Cell stated that he had to absorb the ki of the androids. Only difference is that they didn't have life force, which made them impossible to sense. The point though, is that it doesn't matter if they can't sense you. Goku couldn't sense Arale either, but I'm pretty sure he would crush her.

Not just that, but Whiss isn't that much stronger than Bills. Toriyama put SSJG Goku at a 7, Bills at 10, and Whiss at 15. This means Bills is 30% stronger than SSJG Goku, and Whiss is 50% stronger than Bills, or 80% stronger than SSJG Goku.

Now, Base GT Goku was stronger than "Buu's strongest form", which was Buuhan. This means a good comparison is that GT base kid Goku > Base DBZ Vegetto.

So, since SSJ3 was weaker than Base Vegetto by a wide margin, and SSJG is a 50X boost to SSJ3, this means that SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku. As much as Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. This could be 30% greater, or even more, but I'll be fair and say greater than or equal to.

This means Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, SSJ2 is a 5X boost to SSJ1, so, since Whiss is only 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, that means he's less than 2 times stronger than SSJG, and in association, less than LESS than 2 times stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. Theoretically, Kaioken X2 Super Vegetto would beat Whiss. However, assuming he had SSJ2, he would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss.

This means SSJ2 Vegetto >> Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, let's look at GT Kid Goku, who was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger than Base Vegetto.

This means that if SSJ2 Vegetto could beat Whiss, then SSJ1 GT Goku could probably beat him too. So, all in all, at the bare minimum, SSJ2 Goku would stomp Whiss.

SSJ3 is a 10X boost to SSJ2. This makes SSJ3 GT Goku at LEAST 30 times stronger than Whiss. SSJ4 is a 50X boost to SSJ3, possibly more. Just like SSJG, as SSJ4 let Goku fight someone who was 50X stronger than someone who casually stomped him as a SSJ3. So, this means SSJ4 Goku would be AT LEAST 1,500 TIMES STRONGER THAN WHISS. This is before even getting into fusion, so this argument is just silly. thumb up

where was it said that ssg was a 50x boost?

This is new to me

cdtm
Originally posted by Q99

A SSJ2 is capable of hurting Bills, if not very much. A SSJ3 from a higher base was not a match for a guy who was 1/10th as strong as a SSJ4.


And that's before even getting into fusion!

Not an ordinary SSJ2, though. Basically subverted the power hierarchy, moving past Goku and even Gohan to some ill defined higher level.

Sort of like SSJ4 Goku doing about as well against Omega Shenron, who was GT's final, most powerful boss and crushed SSJ4 Vegeta like fly.

bbrem123
hell they even stated Omega Shenron's power level. It was 1,900,000,000. Which makes your dbz ss3 goku 12.6 times stronger...

Crimson Dragoon
Originally posted by cdtm
Not an ordinary SSJ2, though. Basically subverted the power hierarchy, moving past Goku and even Gohan to some ill defined higher level.

Sort of like SSJ4 Goku doing about as well against Omega Shenron, who was GT's final, most powerful boss and crushed SSJ4 Vegeta like fly.

Omega was kicking Goku's ass for the majority of the fight, and it's only thanks to his Dragon Fist technique that he was able to do anything at all

Dragon Fist is like the kienzan of punching, it allows Goku to hit way out of his weight class

Originally posted by bbrem123
hell they even stated Omega Shenron's power level. It was 1,900,000,000. Which makes your dbz ss3 goku 12.6 times stronger...

ROFL, billions would be laughably low in GT and you probably got that from a questionable source like some video game

bbrem123
Questionable? That is the only "official" powerlevel given to the GT saga and it was from a source that has rights to Dragonball series. But you would take fan made powerlevels over it?

It is an alternate universe. I guess they are just not as powerful in that universe.

Crimson Dragoon
You will, of course, provide this "official" source

And it's an AU in the sense that it belongs in Toei's anime continuity while having nothing to do with the manga, which still means GT is absurdly powerful, even if I think it's bland at the best of times

bbrem123
The only GT power levels given where from Bandai. Who have shared rights to the series with Toei and Funimation. So what say say is cannon unless corrected by the Writers or Toriyama. Which will never happen because Toriyama is doing all he can to remove GT.

But in the end that power level has far more credibility than fan made power levels.

There are been no actual power levels given to a series since the freeze saga.

bbrem123

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Um, the androids did have ki, as even Cell stated that he had to absorb the ki of the androids. Only difference is that they didn't have life force, which made them impossible to sense. The point though, is that it doesn't matter if they can't sense you. Goku couldn't sense Arale either, but I'm pretty sure he would crush her.

Not just that, but Whiss isn't that much stronger than Bills. Toriyama put SSJG Goku at a 7, Bills at 10, and Whiss at 15. This means Bills is 30% stronger than SSJG Goku, and Whiss is 50% stronger than Bills, or 80% stronger than SSJG Goku.

Now, Base GT Goku was stronger than "Buu's strongest form", which was Buuhan. This means a good comparison is that GT base kid Goku > Base DBZ Vegetto.

So, since SSJ3 was weaker than Base Vegetto by a wide margin, and SSJG is a 50X boost to SSJ3, this means that SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku. As much as Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. This could be 30% greater, or even more, but I'll be fair and say greater than or equal to.

This means Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, SSJ2 is a 5X boost to SSJ1, so, since Whiss is only 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, that means he's less than 2 times stronger than SSJG, and in association, less than LESS than 2 times stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. Theoretically, Kaioken X2 Super Vegetto would beat Whiss. However, assuming he had SSJ2, he would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss.

This means SSJ2 Vegetto >> Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, let's look at GT Kid Goku, who was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger than Base Vegetto.

This means that if SSJ2 Vegetto could beat Whiss, then SSJ1 GT Goku could probably beat him too. So, all in all, at the bare minimum, SSJ2 Goku would stomp Whiss.

SSJ3 is a 10X boost to SSJ2. This makes SSJ3 GT Goku at LEAST 30 times stronger than Whiss. SSJ4 is a 50X boost to SSJ3, possibly more. Just like SSJG, as SSJ4 let Goku fight someone who was 50X stronger than someone who casually stomped him as a SSJ3. So, this means SSJ4 Goku would be AT LEAST 1,500 TIMES STRONGER THAN WHISS. This is before even getting into fusion, so this argument is just silly. thumb up

No way SS4 is stronger then Whiss. He could one shot Omega.

Crimson Dragoon

bbrem123
so an official power level from the makes is nothing? wtf?

so you just ignore the only power level given to GT for a canon source because you dont like it?

Time Immemorial
Toryiama disproves the multipliers does not mean a damn thing, damn where have I been. :/

Q99

Time Immemorial
Whis>7th God of Destruction

I am confused how SS4 is higher then these bodies.

Q99
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Whis>7th God of Destruction

Ah, Whis.

We really don't know his strength in relation to Beerus and SSG Goku. Unless he completely blows Beerus out of the water, though, that's still not going to be enough against Gogeta. Not based on what we've seen.






Because GT goes through a lot of powerups.

SSJ2 BotG Vegeta could harm Beerus, if only a little. GT fighters have gone through a lot more significant power ups than SSJ2 BotG Vegeta.

Heck, in the Baby Saga alone, Vegeta- who, like Goku, has shown to have an improved base level in GT (and notably BotG has not shown this)- started out as around an even match for SSJ3 Goku, upgraded two more forms above that (by absorbing the power of first Gohan/Trunks/Goten/Bra, and then the rest of the Earth), and even then after absorbing all that power, SSJ4 kicked his butt... and then when he went Oozaru, multiplying all that massive power by 10x, he still was merely a close fight for SSJ4.



And then Omega Shenron blows away even a SSJ4, and Fusion-Gogeta SSJ4 blows away Omega Shenron....

Time Immemorial
Here you go

7Xlx1nEGc7k

BloodRain
What's that meant to show?

bbrem123
Still we have a canon source saying Omega Shenrons power level was 1.9 Billion. I wonder why they didn't use the multiplier method to get that number. Maybe because they are only fan made power level. hmmmm

And that the method has been disproved. As shown by vegeta amping beyond gohan and goku.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Here you go

7Xlx1nEGc7k

Time Immemorial knows whats up

That right there is the best physical feat ever shown within any Dragonball series. Destroying planets like that from wasabi. North Kai said it right. Beerus can destroy a cluster of galaxies when gets angry. Feats to actually back up his power.

And whis crushed him...

Yet again showing how much more superior Beerus and Whis are.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
Still we have a canon source saying Omega Shenrons power level was 1.9 Billion. Power levels listed in video games are not 'canon' unless they coincide with PLs listed in canon sources. For example, that same game(Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha) had the Cell Juniors power levels at ~47m. Given that the Cell Juniors could stomp ASSJs like fodder, they were obviously not several times weaker than Freeza. That same game also has Kid Buu decisively more powerful than Fat Buu(pre-split), which there is no evidence to support. The same game also states that SSJ4 is only 10x> a base SSJ, which is complete BS. Etc., etc., etc...

I can point out a LOT more inconsistencies if need be. The point, however, is that said power levels are absolutely non-canon. You cannot just cherry-pick a single PL because you think it better-suits your argument, without looking at ALL the context surrounding it.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Time Immemorial knows whats up

That right there is the best physical feat ever shown within any Dragonball series. Destroying planets like that from wasabi. North Kai said it right. Beerus can destroy a cluster of galaxies when gets angry. Feats to actually back up his power.

And whis crushed him...

Yet again showing how much more superior Beerus and Whis are. *sighs*

a.) Those planets were tiny--I've pointed this out to others before. Them being referring to as 'planets' doesn't denote large size, btw, as even King Kai's world(which SSJ3 Goku punched a hole through) is classified as a planet as well.
b.) The "clusters of galaxies" statement is an English-dub only line, and as such, is non-canon. The most canon Jap-dub said no such thing.

Quincy
Is that Purple Lying Cat?

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Power levels listed in video games are not 'canon' unless they coincide with PLs listed in canon sources. For example, that same game(Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha) had the Cell Juniors power levels at ~47m. Given that the Cell Juniors could stomp ASSJs like fodder, they were obviously not several times weaker than Freeza. That same game also has Kid Buu decisively more powerful than Fat Buu(pre-split), which there is no evidence to support. The same game also states that SSJ4 is only 10x> a base SSJ, which is complete BS. Etc., etc., etc...

The only canon source of power level was stopped at the Frieza Saga. So the games should be taken into account. They are made by the creators of DB series. Powerlevels not making sense with feats is the problem with every power level presented to support GT. I will take the games power level created by the makes of DB series over fan made levels.

This just further proves my point that power level don't multiply the way you think they do. And how irrelevant they are post Frieza Saga.


Originally posted by Galan007

a.) Those planets were tiny--I've pointed this out to others before. Them being referring to as 'planets' doesn't denote large size, btw, as even King Kai's world(which SSJ3 Goku punched a hole through) is classified as a planet as well.
b.) The "clusters of galaxies" statement is an English-dub only line, and as such, is non-canon. The most canon Jap-dub said no such thing. They don't look that tiny when you see them in the background of a shot while beerus and whis are at the temple. Or when they fly by them on there way to King Kai's planet. You can also tell they are not tiny because you would be able to see objects on them just like you can on King Kai's planet. They clearly look similar to planets in our solar system showing they have atmosphere's and what not. They have all the properties of a larger planet. Unlike King Kai's.

It is quite clear that the 3d effects made every seem close together. Even when they were zooming in and out of the universe itself.

Which is why Whis was so serious on stopping him.

I always find it interesting how differently people(including myself) interpret things like this.

bbrem123
Ahh you are right. They say stars if im not mistaken.

bbrem123
Originally posted by bbrem123
Ahh you are right. They say stars if im not mistaken.
But even in the english subbed whis says Beerus can destroy a galaxy in an instant. Miss translations in both?

juggerman
Do we think SSJ2 Vegeta could bloody SSJ4 Goteta? Like ever? Regardless of anger level?

I sure don't

bbrem123
We have no idea how much vegeta amped. and we have no idea to how much power Beerus was even using at the time.

Also it was stated that vegito was superior to a ss4 so. We know that vegito is nothing compared to Beerus. Beerus is at an unfathomable power level. It was said may times in the movie. A level that could never have been reached. Unlike SS4 Gogeta which they were able to reach with normal inferior ki.

juggerman
Originally posted by bbrem123
Also it was stated that vegito was superior to a ss4 so.

Link?

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
The only canon source of power level was stopped at the Frieza Saga. So the games should be taken into account. They are made by the creators of DB series. Powerlevels not making sense with feats is the problem with every power level presented to support GT. I will take the games power level created by the makes of DB series over fan made levels.

This just further proves my point that power level don't multiply the way you think they do. And how irrelevant they are post Frieza Saga. Freeza's canon PL=120m. According to that video game, the Cell Juniors power levels=47m.

Do you honestly believe Freeza was nearly 3x more powerful than a Cell Junior, or can you take the blinders off for a minute and just admit that the game's power levels are complete shit..?


Originally posted by bbrem123
They don't look that tiny when you see them in the background of a shot while beerus and whis are at the temple. Or when they fly by them on there way to King Kai's planet. You can also tell they are not tiny because you would be able to see objects on them just like you can on King Kai's planet. They clearly look similar to planets in our solar system showing they have atmosphere's and what not. They have all the properties of a larger planet. Unlike King Kai's.

It is quite clear that the 3d effects made every seem close together. Even when they were zooming in and out of the universe itself.

Which is why Whis was so serious on stopping him.

I always find it interesting how differently people(including myself) interpret things like this. Sorry, man, but the planets surrounding Beerus' temple look really small to me(even when we see a close-up of them):
http://s16.postimg.org/cvdix4thx/image.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/f9ej0k6ar/image.jpg
http://s16.postimg.org/53wsykpcl/image.jpg
http://s16.postimg.org/aglncpd91/image.jpg
http://s16.postimg.org/pf4274sb9/image.jpg

IF they were intended to look like full-sized worlds, Toriyama certainly didn't go out of his way to give us a better frame of reference... They look tiny--akin to Kain Kai's planet, imo.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Ahh you are right. They say stars if im not mistaken. The exact word used in the Jap-dub is "hoshi", which can mean "star" or "planet" depending on the context.

Galan007
Originally posted by juggerman
Do we think SSJ2 Vegeta could bloody SSJ4 Goteta? Like ever? Regardless of anger level?

I sure don't ...Especially Z-era SSJ2 Vegeta. SSJ4 Goku would laugh hysterically at his feeble attempts.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Also it was stated that vegito was superior to a ss4 so. That guidebook quote wasn't nearly so black and white...


http://i.imgur.com/ntshRcv.jpg

Translation:
"Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

As you can see, it's got that classic non-committal "perhaps it's like this" thing the guides often do, so there's a built-in degree of uncertainty/ambiguity. Point being: that is absolutely not evidence that Vegito =/>/< SSJ4 Goku. At the end of the day in-universe evidence still trumps ambiguous guidebook excerpts. thumb up

bbrem123
they make that mistake when they show the universe at the beginning of the movie. It is just poor animation.

On those pictures you can see distinct atmosphere and enviorments that a small planet like king kai does not have.

But yes it was stated that Beerus can destroy a solar system in an instance.

The power levels are from a canon source. I know you don't like them but it is what it is. That is why power level irrelevant. All your scaling is fan made. They would have taken the same approach in the games if they thought your multipliers were accurate.

This destroys all power scaling theories

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
they make that mistake when they show the universe at the beginning of the movie. It is just poor animation. Perhaps, but it still depicts tiny worlds.


Originally posted by bbrem123
The power levels are from a canon source. I know you don't like them but it is what it is. That is why power level irrelevant. All your scaling is fan made. They would have taken the same approach in the games if they thought your multipliers were accurate.

This destroys all power scaling theories So Freeza>>>A Cell Junior, iyo?

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
...Especially Z-era SSJ2 Vegeta. SSJ4 Goku would laugh hysterically at his feeble attempts.

That guidebook quote wasn't nearly so black and white...


http://i.imgur.com/ntshRcv.jpg

Translation:
"Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

As you can see, it's got that classic non-committal "perhaps it's like this" thing the guides often do, so there's a built-in degree of uncertainty/ambiguity. Point being: that is absolutely not

evidence that Vegito =/>/< SSJ4 Goku. At the end of the day in-universe evidence still trumps ambiguous guidebook excerpts. thumb up the problem is that there is no actually canon power levels (not including games), feats, and articles like this that show that vegito regarded as a peer to ss4. Which debunks all power scaling again.

I will take that information over made up power level all day long. I know a lot of you guys dont like it but it is what it is.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Perhaps, but it still depicts tiny worlds.


So Freeza>>>A Cell Junior, iyo?

I go by feats. Not power level like you.

I point these things out to disprove all this power level nonsense.

You think they just put random power levels in for sh*ts and giggles?

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
the problem is that there is no actually canon power levels (not including games), feats, and articles like this that show that vegito regarded as a peer to ss4. Which debunks all power scaling again.

I will take that information over made up power level all day long. I know a lot of you guys dont like it but it is what it is. Yes, you WOULD opt to use very ambiguous excerpts in lieu of the most canon in-universe statements, such as Goku stating that Baby Vegeta had the most powerful ki he'd EVER felt(ie. Baby Vegeta>ALL before him)...

Lol, your prerogative here is clear: ignore evidence, and/or cherry-pick showings just to make Beerus/SSJG Goku look better. I mean, you're even trying to claim that Freeza>>>a Cell Junior, just because you don't want to admit that the video game PL chart you're referencing is complete BS. It's just silly at this point.

Originally posted by bbrem123
I go by feats. Not power level like you.

I point these things out to disprove all this power level nonsense.

You think they just put random power levels in for sh*ts and giggles? According to the video game PL list you're clinging desperately to, Freeza>>>a Cell Junior.

Do you agree with that? Yes or no.

bbrem123
Oh please. All these sources are far more creditable than any information you have provided. You and your multiplier none sense. Why do you think they say these things? they like to provide fake and irrelevant information for no reason. Sure they do.

You can't even accept the fact the planets beerus destroyed were not tiny. Even when I provided clear facts to how they are much larger. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
Oh please. All these sources are far more creditable than any information you have provided. You and your multiplier none sense. Why do you think they say these things? they like to provide fake and irrelevant information for no reason. Sure they do. Everything I have stated here is based solely on in-universe FACT, and can be confirmed by a canon source. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

And again: Goku himself stated that Baby Vegeta's ki>ALL before him(Z characters included)... And in comparison to some of the more prominent powers in GT, Baby Vegeta was nothing. Should I ignore that statement just because you don't like it?

Originally posted by bbrem123
You can't even accept the fact the planets beerus destroyed were not tiny. Even when I provided clear facts to how they are much larger. You have your opinion and I have mine. I posted screen-caps from the movie itself. Those 'planets' were depicted very tiny, imo. Sorry that you disagree, but it is what it is. smile

Also, you completely dodged/ignored the question I asked above. Once AGAIN:
According to the video game PL list you're clinging desperately to, Freeza>>>a Cell Junior.

Do you agree with that? Yes or no.

bbrem123
I think no power levels outside of the frieze saga are canon. Including your fake ones that have no feats to back them up. Only theory and empty statements.

But no I do not believe the game power levels. But I would take there creditabiliy over your multipliers. Which are out of control and make no sense.

bbrem123
Outside of obsurd multipliers you have no argument. Even when I debunked them you still proceed to bring them up.

They have no sway over God ki either so again. Irrelevant


Can you show me feats that prove all this power scaling? Also can you provide another power level from the game that is inaccurate?

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
I think no power levels outside of the frieze saga are canon. Including your fake ones that have no feats to back them up. Only theory and empty statements.

But no I do not believe the game power levels. But I would take there creditabiliy over your multipliers. Which are out of control and make no sense. Cool, so you agree that the game power levels you mentioned are complete BS, because Freeza is obviously NOT more powerful than a Cell Junior. Glad we clarified that. thumb up

Originally posted by bbrem123
Outside of obsurd multipliers you have no argument. Even when I debunked them you still proceed to bring them up.

They have no sway over God ki either so again. Irrelevant


Can you show me feats that prove all this power scaling? Also can you provide another power level from the game that is inaccurate? laughing out loud

"Debunk" implies that you posted some sort of canonical evidence to correct something I've posted(kind of like what I just did with your video game power level chart.) You haven't.

The extent of your alleged 'evidence' has been: "your multipliers are fake. God ki pwns ALL!!!1!111!!!" You haven't provided a shred of legitimate evidence that contradicts anything I've said, while I actually have utilized canon sources/statements/feats in order to thoroughly break down for you why GT>>>Z. Once more: everything I have said here is based exclusively on canon material. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

It seems like you are just throwing a hissy-fit at this point, because you have no other retort for my posts. /shrug

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by bbrem123
We have no idea how much vegeta amped. and we have no idea to how much power Beerus was even using at the time.

Vegeta wasn't amped enough to be stronger than any form of Vegetto, that's for sure. Vegetto's power level is Goku's multiplied by Vegeta's. SSJ2 is only 250X base. So say, for example, Goku and Vegeta were at 100,000,000,000 each in base form. That means Vegeta at SSJ2 would be 25,000,000,000,000, 25 trillion. If Goku and Vegeta fused, they'd be at 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 10 sextillion. Ridiculously higher, not to mention the rival boost Vegetto gets. Yeah, Vegetto is incomparably stronger than either of the two. Not to mention that Vegeta is weaker than Super Buu, who is weaker than Buutenks, who is weaker than Buuhan, who is weaker than Vegetto. Arguing that Bills is ridiculously stronger than Vegetto is arguing that Vegeta is also stronger than Vegetto, which just isn't true... At all.

Originally posted by bbrem123 Also it was stated that vegito was superior to a ss4 so.

No it wasn't. thumb up

Originally posted by bbrem123
We know that vegito is nothing compared to Beerus.

No we don't. That would be insinuating that Vegeta was nothing compared to Bills, which he clearly wasn't. Vegetto is incomparably stronger than Vegeta, being able to dominate someone hundreds of times stronger than someone Vegeta couldn't kill by sacrificing his life as a Majin SSJ2. Not to mention that Vegetto did that IN BASE FORM. For all we know, Vegetto in base might be superior to Bills. However, I already calced this accurately, and SSJ Vegetto is equal to or greater than SSJG Goku. SSJ2 Vegetto is several times stronger than Whiss. thumb up

Originally posted by bbrem123
Beerus is at an unfathomable power level. It was said may times in the movie. A level that could never have been reached. Unlike SS4 Gogeta which they were able to reach with normal inferior ki.

Not really.

They said the same things about King Piccolo, Nappa, and Frieza. They were proven wrong. Hell, Whiss one-shotted Bills, and Whiss isn't a god, nor was it implied that he uses godly ki. So what, now Whiss, who has normal ki, is weaker than Bills? thumb up

Also, SSJ2 Goku from GT is several times stronger than Whiss, according to statements from Toriyama himself. Let alone SSJ4 anyone, LET ALONE SSJ4 GOGETA. thumb up

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Cool, so you agree that the game power levels you mentioned are complete BS, because Freeza is obviously NOT more powerful than a Cell Junior. Glad we clarified that. thumb up

laughing out loud

"Debunk" implies that you posted some sort of canonical evidence to correct something I've posted(kind of like what I just did with your video game power level chart.) You haven't.

The extent of your alleged 'evidence' has been: "your multipliers are fake. God ki pwns ALL!!!1!111!!!" You haven't provided a shred of legitimate evidence that contradicts anything I've said, while I actually have utilized canon sources/statements/feats in order to thoroughly break down for you why GT>>>Z. Once more: everything I have said here is based exclusively on canon material. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

It seems like you are just throwing a hissy-fit at this point, because you have no other retort for my posts. /shrug at least go by feats and not made up nonsense. You have no arguemnt in your favor. It is somewhat comical that you think those power level you presented are even accurate. I have giving my stance and others agree with it. So im sorry you get upset with gt begin an inconsistent featless series.

I'm actually surprised that you are taking the stance of unproven power level and disregard every showing that disprove the power you think they have. But hey whatever floats your boat.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
at least go by feats and not made up nonsense. You have no arguemnt in your favor. It is somewhat comical that you think those power level you presented are even accurate. I have giving my stance and others agree with it. So im sorry you get upset with gt begin an inconsistent featless series.

I'm actually surprised that you are taking the stance of unproven power level and disregard every showing that disprove the power you think they have. But hey whatever floats your boat. Like I said: The extent of your alleged 'evidence' has been: "your multipliers are fake. God ki pwns ALL!!!1!111!!!" You haven't provided a shred of legitimate evidence that contradicts anything I've said, while I actually have utilized canon sources/statements/feats in order to thoroughly break down for you why GT>>>Z. Once more: everything I have said here is based exclusively on canon material. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

Stop throwing a tantrum. It's apparent by now that you don't have a leg to stand on, here. You just can't(or won't) admit it, and are trying to project your angst onto me for whatever reason. Again, it changes nothing. smile

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: The extent of your alleged 'evidence' has been: "your multipliers are fake. God ki pwns ALL!!!1!111!!!" You haven't provided a shred of legitimate evidence that contradicts anything I've said, while I actually have utilized canon sources/statements/feats in order to thoroughly break down for you why GT>>>Z. Once more: everything I have said here is based exclusively on canon material. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

Stop throwing a tantrum. It's apparent by now that you don't have a leg to stand on, here. You just can't(or won't) admit it, and are trying to project your angst onto me for whatever reason. Again, it changes nothing. smile

Agreed.

Brem belongs on the short bus of this site. thumb up

bbrem123
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Vegeta wasn't amped enough to be stronger than any form of Vegetto, that's for sure. Vegetto's power level is Goku's multiplied by Vegeta's. SSJ2 is only 250X base. So say, for example, Goku and Vegeta were at 100,000,000,000 each in base form. That means Vegeta at SSJ2 would be 25,000,000,000,000, 25 trillion. If Goku and Vegeta fused, they'd be at 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 10 sextillion. Ridiculously higher, not to mention the rival boost Vegetto gets. Yeah, Vegetto is incomparably stronger than either of the two. Not to mention that Vegeta is weaker than Super Buu, who is weaker than Buutenks, who is weaker than Buuhan, who is weaker than Vegetto. Arguing that Bills is ridiculously stronger than Vegetto is arguing that Vegeta is also stronger than Vegetto, which just isn't true... At all.

again speculation.

as I have shown. Vegito was compared to a ss4. It is plain as day. But you have stick up your as* so I guess you will ignore it an make up some more power level. shrug


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

No we don't. That would be insinuating that Vegeta was nothing compared to Bills, which he clearly wasn't. Vegetto is incomparably stronger than Vegeta, being able to dominate someone hundreds of times stronger than someone Vegeta couldn't kill by sacrificing his life as a Majin SSJ2. Not to mention that Vegetto did that IN BASE FORM. For all we know, Vegetto in base might be superior to Bills. However, I already calced this accurately, and SSJ Vegetto is equal to or greater than SSJG Goku. SSJ2 Vegetto is several times stronger than Whiss. thumb up



Not really.

They said the same things about King Piccolo, Nappa, and Frieza. They were proven wrong. Hell, Whiss one-shotted Bills, and Whiss isn't a god, nor was it implied that he uses godly ki. So what, now Whiss, who has normal ki, is weaker than Bills? thumb up

Also, SSJ2 Goku from GT is several times stronger than Whiss, according to statements from Toriyama himself. Let alone SSJ4 anyone, LET ALONE SSJ4 GOGETA. thumb up more worthless claims that dont disprove anything I have said. At least Galan is a good debater...

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: The extent of your alleged 'evidence' has been: "your multipliers are fake. God ki pwns ALL!!!1!111!!!" You haven't provided a shred of legitimate evidence that contradicts anything I've said, while I actually have utilized canon sources/statements/feats in order to thoroughly break down for you why GT>>>Z. Once more: everything I have said here is based exclusively on canon material. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

Stop throwing a tantrum. It's apparent by now that you don't have a leg to stand on, here. You just can't(or won't) admit it, and are trying to project your angst onto me for whatever reason. Again, it changes nothing. smile

canon sources and feats? No you have not because if you did we would not be at this point. Im am open to changing my mind on the subject but you have a terrible stance. imo.

All I hear are power level never specifically stated in the show. Where you have all these other powerlevels from canon sources disproving them. I dont so much approve of the either but they are there.

and again trying to say power scaling works with BoGs character is just not right. and you know it has no relevance too...

You are stuck in this power scaling wankathon that has no feats to back it up. This is why DBZ fans have terrible arguments vs Marvel and DC.

bbrem123
Also Galan. Canon power level are presented in the game. Which make the rest canon as well.

You said it yourself.

Originally posted by Galan007
Power levels listed in video games are not 'canon' unless they coincide with PLs listed in canon sources.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
canon sources and feats? No you have not because if you did we would not be at this point. Im am open to changing my mind on the subject but you have a terrible stance. imo.

All I hear are power level never specifically stated in the show. Where you have all these other powerlevels from canon sources disproving them. I dont so much approve of the either but they are there.

and again trying to say power scaling works with BoGs character is just not right. and you know it has no relevance too...

You are stuck in this power scaling wankathon that has no feats to back it up. This is why DBZ fans have terrible arguments vs Marvel and DC. Once more, you have nothing substantial to add to this discussion, and are just spouting your baseless opinion.

Myself, and several others, have brought up multiple bits of explicit in-universe evidence directly from GT, which should be more than enough for anyone who is at least half-way logical to see that GT is simply beyond Z. You're simply ignoring anything that doesn't coincide with your opinion that "GAWD KI PWNZ ALL!!"

It's silly, and moreover childish.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Also Galan. Canon power level are presented in the game. Which make the rest canon as well.

You said it yourself. The only canon power levels listed in that game are the ones up to the Freeza saga. The other power levels are just laughable. The fact that you're STILL trying to cling to them shows me just how low you're willing to stoop.

As I've said several times now: according to that game's power level chart, Freeza is nearly 3x more powerful than a friggin CELL JUNIOR. Defending power levels that are blatantly/painfully/obviously incorrect is absolutely ridiculous.

SSJGGogeta
Wow, this is sad. Why are you still here, Brem?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by bbrem123
again speculation.

as I have shown. Vegito was compared to a ss4. It is plain as day. But you have stick up your as* so I guess you will ignore it an make up some more power level. shrug


more worthless claims that dont disprove anything I have said. At least Galan is a good debater...

Hyperbole. thumb up

Clearly the statement was a retarded exaggeration, considering GT isn't even cannon, according to Toriyama.

Also, the statement said, "perhaps". If anyone's speculating, it would be the person taking a "maybe" as a definitive fact... You.

How can you actually be this stupid?

Not only are you saying Bills is incomparably stronger than Vegetto, but by association, you're saying Vegeta is as well. Have you even been reading these comments at all?

And fyi, you wouldn't know a "good debater", if it bit you in the ass, because you clearly lack too many chromosomes to have sensation in your nerve endings.

Q99
Originally posted by bbrem123
We have no idea how much vegeta amped. and we have no idea to how much power Beerus was even using at the time.

He didn't have an external amp, just anger. And remember, it takes generosity to even put him on the same level as GT SSJ2 Vegeta, and GT SSJ2 Vegeta is significantly less powerful than GT SSJ3 Goku is significantly less powerful than Baby Vegeta in form 2 or 3 is about 1/10th as powerful as SSJ4.

Or to put it another way, even if he was amped at twice or four times normal- which is just speculation- he's still waaay below SSJ4, not even close.



And Beerus... do you have any indication that he was powered down? Are you just going to assume he was powered down? Unsupported speculation?

Beerus pure godly ki in any case and was still hurt, which shows without a doubt normal ki beings can hurt godly ki beings with quantity, and BotG Vegeta likely has less than 1/100th the normal ki of a SSJ4.


Your entire argument seems to be based on unsupported assumption that Vegeta is stronger than ever indicate, that Beerus was randomly weaker, and not even looking at the GT powerups that show support on that side. And when I say 'unsupported,' I mean no dialog, no fights, no feats, literally not the slightest hint in anything.

In comparison, the argument for the GT side is based on shown powerups, comparisons to known shown characters like Perfect Cell, and so on.




Never said, those statements are only about Toriyama canon.

Plus Gogeta makes a normal SSJ4 look like an ant, so you'd still be off even if we assumed the point (notice how much your argument relies on assumption?).





Really, you should stop saying the other side is made up when you have to rely on making up Beerus being mysteriously weaker, making up that Vegeta has unseen power ups beyond what's shown, and just brushing aside the non-made up on screen GT powerups and the fact that Beerus was hurt by normal ki inside his own movie.


You keep accusing other people of using speculation when they bring up arguments with examples, and then using literal unsupported speculation of powerups/power downs/etc. that were not shown anywhere.

Good, supported speculation is something that can be legitimately argued, but people have been going beyond speculation into "This is directly shown," stuff. If you cannot respond to direct examples, while meanwhile cannot bring up examples to support your points that are not directly contradicted on screen, then you're the one without evidence to stand on.

cdtm
*Devil Advocate*

What if we take a completely feat based approach?

Q99
Originally posted by cdtm
*Devil Advocate*

What if we take a completely feat based approach?



The highest physical strength feat shown in a dragonball series is SSJ4 Goku lifting a city. And that's just half the fusion.

So, GT.



If one goes power scaling, there's soooo much more on the GT side.

The last known power for SSJ2 Vegeta before the Beerus fight was in the Buu saga... wherein he was stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan, but not by a ton. Not someone who blows Perfect Cell out of the water so to speak, but definitely powerful.

Base-form GT Kid Goku can stomp Perfect Cell.

Vegeta can fight that Goku just fine. Baby Vegeta can solidly beat SSJ3 GT Goku. Even SSJ3 DBZ Goku is, obviously, stronger than SSJ2 DBZ Vegeta.


SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta are at least 10x the level of that GT Goku.


Then they fuse.

Galan007
thumb up

-Also, Goku stated that Rildo>Majin Buu... And Goku was stalemating him as a BASE Saiyan. ie. BASE GT Goku~Majin Buu.

-Goku stated that Baby Vegeta had the most powerful ki he'd EVER felt. This means Baby Vegeta>ALL before him(Z characters included)... And that was BEFORE Baby Vegeta reached his peak form.

-Baby Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Goku easily. When Goku transformed into SSJ4, the tables turned completely, and Goku easily stomped Baby Vegeta--what's more, SSJ4 Goku proved to be on par with Oozaru Baby Vegeta. That said, SSJ4 must have been more than 10x> SSJ3.

-Omega Shenron was casually pummeling SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta(they literally had no chance against him.) After fusing into SSJ4 Gogeta, Omega was tooled in one of the most effortless/one-sided stomps I have ever witnessed.

cdtm
End of GT is among the 15 percent or so of the show I watched, and yeah, Gogeta treated the fight like a joke.

People say he blew it due to "fusion arrogance", but he DID in fact try to finish Omega Shenron (With the same finisher he used in the movie), and he regenerated from it.

So, seems he has Buu like invincibility.

Q99
Sure, he used a finishing move that does so much damage Omega loses all the dragonballs and goes back down to Syn Shenron til her re-absorbs them, but he only did so after using some total troll attacks ^^

Originally posted by Galan007

-Omega Shenron was casually pummeling SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta(they literally had no chance against him.)

To put it in Beerus terms, know how it was possible to give Beerus a bloody lip? Well, they couldn't give Omega a bloody lip ^^





Indeed, Omega Gogeta was capable of repulsing him without touching him.

Q99
Btw, if it *wasn't* for that bloody lip, we could say, "Ok, we know Beerus was untouchably above them, but we don't know by how much, or if enough raw power would allow non godly ki to work, so it's really hard to say." But that one feat shows that, yea, he's *well* within reach of this much ki.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Q99
Btw, if it *wasn't* for that bloody lip, we could say, "Ok, we know Beerus was untouchably above them, but we don't know by how much, or if enough raw power would allow non godly ki to work, so it's really hard to say." But that one feat shows that, yea, he's *well* within reach of this much ki.

Exactly. And Omega wasn't. Just like Vegetto wasn't.

The only difference is the scaling of power between the two. On one hand, Vegetto toyed with Buuhan in his base form.

Omega toyed with two GT SSJ4's, each of which was = to the Vegetto we saw in base to SSJ. Possibly greater.

Basically, Omega toyed with the raw equivalents of two SSJ4 Vegetto's, from DBZ. SSJ4 Gogeta toyed with Omega.

The point is that any GT SSJ2 or above would solo all of DBZ casually, Whiss and Bills included. Let alone a fusion from GT, LET ALONE a SSJ4 Fusion from GT, let alone a SSJ4 fusion of Goku and Vegeta from GT, LET ALONE A SSJ4 FUSION OF GOKU AND VEGETA FROM GT WHEN BOTH WERE STRONGER THAN BUU IN THEIR BASE FORMS.

Doesn't matter though. Brem'll come up with something. roll eyes (sarcastic)

banana3
Instead of going by this power level crap (they're 2 different universes smh) let's go by feats/power scaling:

Anime Cell is a solar system buster because it's backed up by an anime guidebook and Kid Buu's over a few years (can someone pull up whether Funi's subs say few or couple) galaxy busting. The GT perfect files state Syn Shenron is a galaxy buster. However apparently the show says Syn would destroy the galaxy over time. Can someone confirm? Speed wise their best feat is Kid Buu destroying the galaxy over a few years, assuming 5 years and lowballing it by having Kid Buu just TRAVEL a galactic distance, in this case the milky way, he's 20,000x ftl.

Whis is a solar system buster from Beerus. Speed wise: search up whis takes flight since I can't post links yet smh. Since that can't be applied to his reactions, you have to use the 1/22000 formula as said by willyvereb in the comments. 2 million ftl.

Conclusion: SSJ4 Gogeta is a ss buster+ (possible galaxy buster. Please someone confirm) and 5 digit ftl vs Whis who is a ss buster+ and 7 digit ftl. Gogeta can only win if someone confirms the galaxy busting.

Q99
The wiki says Omega Shenron's final attack threatened the universe. Not 'go around around place to place blowing stuff up' ala Buu, he was just going to spread his energy out and kill everything.

(Btw, the DB universe seems a rather fragile place in general ^^)



He has instant transmission. He can go anywhere instantly.

carver9
At the time he destroyed hundreds of planets and threatened the Galaxy, Buu didn't have Instant transmission.

banana3
Originally posted by Q99
The wiki says Omega Shenron's final attack threatened the universe. Not 'go around around place to place blowing stuff up' ala Buu, he was just going to spread his energy out and kill everything.

(Btw, the DB universe seems a rather fragile place in general ^^)



He has instant transmission. He can go anywhere instantly.
Omega was going to do it over a long period of time so it doesn't count. There's no reason to believe the DB universe is less fragile anyway.

Like carver said, Buu didn't have it at the time.

The only way SSJ4 Gogeta beats god Goku is if someone can confirm that GT doesn't say Syn Shenron would destroy the galaxy OVER TIME.

BloodRain
Are we forgettingthe magician who was taking Buu around to destroy desired locations? They state that this is what happened the final time, that he sealed Buu up to transport him to Earth.


GT is too far and above. I think it'll be interesting when RoF is released, and if we see him at the same level of his Namek 100% state, it could be a perfect comparison to GT. Also to see if he would just get tossed aside.

carver9
When was it said that the magician transported Buu? He couldn't even controlled Buu and he went against Kid Buu actions which is the reason he was please with Fat Buu. So where was it said that he assisted Buu in any of his travels? Scans.

heisetx
Original Kid Buu fought on the kais planet, (before some time absorbing the fat supreme Kai) You have to use some kind of teleportation to get there, or die in the physical universe.

banana3
Where is it stated you need teleportation?

heisetx
Its stated in the writing/manga that other world, hfil, and the kais planet is in the spiritual realms, unlike the physical realms where you can still fly or move instantly to get places. No amount of regular moving from the visible universe will get you to the kais planet/ otherworld.

normally you have to die to get from a- universe to b- otherworld, kais etc.. Normally a spirit unless your body was saved due to good deeds; instantaneous movement like instant transmission or the Kai teleportation can do it as well. Nowhere does it state ftl travel has taken place. That's nonsense. If that was the case, goku still wouldn't need spaceships by the gt sagas, etc..

carver9
Originally posted by heisetx
Original Kid Buu fought on the kais planet, (before some time absorbing the fat supreme Kai) You have to use some kind of teleportation to get there, or die in the physical universe.

He did not know how to instant transmission. Nothing of the sort was mentioned and if he did knew of it, he would've used it a long time ago. He learned it by seeing Goku do it.

banana3
Nvm this post

BloodRain
Originally posted by carver9
When was it said that the magician transported Buu? He couldn't even controlled Buu and he went against Kid Buu actions which is the reason he was please with Fat Buu. So where was it said that he assisted Buu in any of his travels? Scans.
The first conversation about Buu, right after the "hundredds of planets" page they say how Buu was sealed to conserve Bebidi's power, right on to saying that he used this to transport Buu to their next destination, Earth. It's just that Kibito killed him before the resurrection.

Buu was being transported around to wherevery the mage needed him to be. Which makes sense as even if Buu was a wildfire, we still know that he was present to Buu's chaos, being continuously mentioned and obviously needed for the sealing.

Q99
Originally posted by banana3
Omega was going to do it over a long period of time so it doesn't count.

That was talking about a specific technique he was doing.



Our universe would laugh at the kind of power they throw around. Our universe has had far higher concentrations than any power in DB by many orders of magnitude. Solar system busting is not near a sneeze compared to real power.



Bzzt, that's a false premise. You can't try and ignore a bunch of evidence by setting a single goalpost.

There's a ton of stuff that indicates he's stronger. Not limited to, universal threat, not galactic. And Beerus was hurt by a SSJ2, aka a solar system buster.

banana3
Originally posted by BloodRain
The first conversation about Buu, right after the "hundredds of planets" page they say how Buu was sealed to conserve Bebidi's power, right on to saying that he used this to transport Buu to their next destination, Earth. It's just that Kibito killed him before the resurrection.

Buu was being transported around to wherevery the mage needed him to be. Which makes sense as even if Buu was a wildfire, we still know that he was present to Buu's chaos, being continuously mentioned and obviously needed for the sealing.
Transported =/= teleporting

Originally posted by Q99


That was talking about a specific technique he was doing.
The only technique that allows him to "universe" bust.


The DB universe also laughs at their power.


Nothing indicates Gogeta is above solar sytem busting beside the guidebook statement that may or may not be contradicted by the actual show.

BloodRain
no expression

Who cares if the wizard teleported them boh or flew him around in some ship? Point is its not Buu flying around, at all.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
The only canon power levels listed in that game are the ones up to the Freeza saga. The other power levels are just laughable. The fact that you're STILL trying to cling to them shows me just how low you're willing to stoop.

As I've said several times now: according to that game's power level chart, Freeza is nearly 3x more powerful than a friggin CELL JUNIOR. Defending power levels that are blatantly/painfully/obviously incorrect is absolutely ridiculous.

You're the one who said if they were with a canon source they are canon themselves. I love how you ignore that part. The only odd power level is cell jr. Even then you have heroes like krillin, tien and yamcha holding there own against them. Why would they put canon power level in the game to begin with? Hmmmmmm

It just shows how wrong all of your theories are.

I will end on that note. But you can say one thing then change your mind because it doesn't fit your stance any longer. Just saying...

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
You're the one who said if they were with a canon source they are canon themselves. I love how you ignore that part. The only odd power level is cell jr. Even then you have heroes like krillin, tien and yamcha holding there own against them. Why would they put canon power level in the game to begin with? Hmmmmmm

It just shows how wrong all of your theories are.

I will end on that note. But you can say one thing then change your mind because it doesn't fit your stance any longer. Just saying... You make no sense... None at all. I said that the video game's ONLY canon PL's are those that coincide with the ones mentioned in the manga, which should have already been obvious. The other NON-CANON power-levels listed in that game are just phucking ridiculous. Freeza... More powerful than a Cell Junior..? Retardedly absurd. Keep trying to defend that blatantly inaccurate source, though. It doesn't make you look desperate, I swear. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Did you just say that the humans could hold their own against the Cell Juniors, when not even ASSJ Vegeta and Trunks could? Lol, good God. Just when I thought you couldn't dig a deeper hole for yourself. roll eyes (sarcastic)x2

Yes, it's probably a good thing that you decided to end things there. thumb up

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