Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Saber, force all out.

Mace wins, with difficulty.

Mace is the boss.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_66_Rep_Show_of_Force_2_02-03_zps27b127a8.jpg

Team 6-7/10.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says.

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Mace dies.

Originally posted by carthage
Mace dies.

If I change Agen to Bruu, then who wins ?

Mace might barely take Bruu.. He sent a bunch of karate punches into Kar vastor faster than he could blink, that to me is a superior feat than KOing a Yeti.

But Mace would die to Tiin (MVP) and Fisto.

Kit and Saesee can't handle Mace without Kolar.

Team.

Windu scathes a victory.

Tough fight, but I think I'd lean Mace.

The Team. Mace is capable and could keep up with the Team, but together they win. Saesee is comparable to power, while Agen and Fisto together are about equals in skill. They win 7/10.

Team every single time. But Mace would give them a very good fight.

Could go either ways imo.

UjGM6yjDBV0

I disliked the video on my two channels, lol.

I actually don't see why Mace has a chance. All right, I get it, the PT sucks and everyone hates the B-Team cus they're featlezz. But they're all, individually, comparable duelists to Mace, and Tiin alone can cover the power gap. Windu does not have a chance in hell of winning this fight.

I liked your Darth Maul: Sith Hunters though.

Did anyone else noticed this before ?

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/shot_0026_20141107_232502_zpsb940ec55.jpg

Mace can kick Sidious's face with his boot before he can react.

What the hell are you talking about? Sheev was headbutting Windu's foot to reduce his mobility.

Mace and relatively easily

Thats right people spite Kolar everyone hates him

If Mace goes all out, he wins quickly (but quickly does not necessarily mean easily).

He is after all Sidious's near equal in Sabers.

Mace wins easily. They will be as non-factor as they were against Sidious.

Implying Mace Windu has the same physical stats as Darth Sidious under normal conditions like this thread?

B-Team take this handily.

Yes Mace is superior to anyone here in a physical contest as well, Mace probably even superior to Darth Maul or Savage. None of them can match with a Gundark in a physical contest, Maul and Savage can match with a Wampa but not a Gundark.

JaP0C5IqGYw

***1:09***

Mace isn't any faster than Kit Fisto, and Mace's physical stats aren't really enough to bridge the gap of collective skill the B-Team has over him.

And are you serious? All Mace did was hit them a couple of times, get grabbed, and then kill one with his lightsaber. Maul ripping the skull off of a varactyl without even utilising Force Augmentation amongst his other strength feats are beyond Windu's capabilities. As are Savage's, tbh, who's sheer size alone is enough to overpower Windu in a contest of sheer strength. Savage has snapped bones in his grip, dented stone with his fists prior to being upgraded, shattered steel restrains just by flexing, hurled Obi-Wan and Anakin ect. Mace is faster than Savage but he's slower, less durable, and has less endurance than Maul. He's below Maul in every physical category somewhat.

No, except pain tolerance and durability, Mace is superior to Maul in a every physical category. Mace's kick disarmed Sidious, Mace managed to hurt a Gundark, the same Gundark species stomped TCW Anakin, I doubt Maul could hurt a Gundark with a kick or punch, nor he is capable of disarming Sidious with a kick, he tried to kick Sidious in mandalore and he failed to disarming him.

I also forgot Mace's micro-series feat, he was punching super-battle droids with his bare hands there.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Macehands_zps9e666347.jpg

1. Kicking someone in the hand and disarming them of their weapon, especially in a fight where you are amped beyond your normal physical capabilities, isn't a better strength feat than:
- shattering durasteel binders with a flex
- kicking through durasteel
- smashing metal droids
- punching into a Wampa's torso
- shattering a workshop table
- tearing the skull off of a massive varactyl without augmenting yourself with the Force
- kicking into a person's torso
- hoisting and choking an armored, 7 foot tall predator hard enough for blood to spurt from it's eyes and mouth
- shattering a spine without Force augmentation
- throwing neck-cracking blows without Force augmentation
Ect, ect.

2. I'm pretty sure Maul could momentarily stun a Gundark, they don't seem too impressive durability-wise unless I'm missing something. Maul is pretty clearly stronger than Windu. And he should be somewhat faster as well although it's a marginal edge.

And? Not only is part of that droid smashing attributed to shatterpoint, but Maul has already done the same to droids and then some.

Originally posted by ILS
Mace isn't any faster than Kit Fisto,


You can't be serious?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You can't be serious? Let me know when Mace produces multiple cyclones from his blade whilst speedblitzing two Magnaguards. I mean, the difference in speed would be marginal at best but it's there.

Originally posted by ILS
I actually don't see why Mace has a chance. All right, I get it, the PT sucks and everyone hates the B-Team cus they're featlezz. But they're all, individually, comparable duelists to Mace, and Tiin alone can cover the power gap. Windu does not have a chance in hell of winning this fight.

Uh, if they were comparable, they would not have died while he was able to get the upper hand.

Fisto *may* possibly be as fast, but wasn't as skilled.



Fisto's got quite a number of feats, but he's still not on Windu's level, and the others are lower than that.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, if they were comparable, they would not have died while he was able to get the upper hand.

Fisto *may* possibly be as fast, but wasn't as skilled.



Fisto's got quite a number of feats, but he's still not on Windu's level, and the others are lower than that. That was due to a large disparity in speed, not skill, and Windu wasn't fighting Sidious under normal circumstances like he is here. Tiin being noted as one of the Jedi's best duelists and being able to spar evenly with Windu for a brief time makes him loosely comparable to Windu. Same thing goes with Kolar and Fisto except Kolar has a much more solid feat in wrecking Quinlan Vos, and Fisto has wrecked a pair of Magnaguards, is objectively better than AotC Kenobi, beat TCW Grievous quite handily ect. All three of them can provide a good challenge to Mace in a duel, never mind all three at once.

And I never said Fisto was as skilled as Windu, just that he's comparable.

Originally posted by ILS
That was due to a large disparity in speed, not skill, and Windu wasn't fighting Sidious under normal circumstances like he is here. Tiin being noted as one of the Jedi's best duelists and being able to spar evenly with Windu for a brief time makes him loosely comparable to Windu. Same thing goes with Kolar and Fisto except Kolar has a much more solid feat in wrecking Quinlan Vos, and Fisto has wrecked a pair of Magnaguards, is objectively better than AotC Kenobi, beat TCW Grievous quite handily ect. All three of them can provide a good challenge to Mace in a duel, never mind all three at once.

And I never said Fisto was as skilled as Windu, just that he's comparable. I'm pretty sure that vos wasn't going all out in his duel with agen. His mission was to gain dooku's trust; not kill a fellow jedi. You can also tell that vos was holding back because oneshotted k'ruhk when he was serious.

Originally posted by deathslash
I'm pretty sure that vos wasn't going all out in his duel with agen. His mission was to gain dooku's trust; not kill a fellow jedi. You can also tell that vos was holding back because oneshotted k'ruhk when he was serious. Vos was possibly holding back when he was first disarmed, but he declares afterwards that there is no option but to be enemies with Agen - at which point Agen wrecks him. I don't believe this is Vos in his prime or anything, but he's still a solid duelist at this point so Kolar stomping him in a matter of a couple of moves without killing him is highly impressive.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4207668-vos+vs+kolar3.png http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4207669-vos+vs+kolar4.png

Originally posted by ILS
Let me know when Mace produces multiple cyclones from his blade whilst speedblitzing two Magnaguards. I mean, the difference in speed would be marginal at best but it's there.

I'll let you know when Mace lasts more than a few seconds against Sidious...

Oh wait...

Feats are BS without powerscaling.

Thanks to extraordinary circumstances.......

Un-amped / Default Mace Windu should be fast as (or maybe faster) TCW Darth Maul, Count Dooku and Kit Fisto. Otherwise he couldn't amp himself without getting killed against Sidious, Default Mace Windu can certainly react to Darth Sidious level beings.

Mace also teleported behind Asajj Ventress, and Quinlan Vos, these feats are good as speedblitzing magnaguards (maybe better)

ILS' argument can make sense, if we assume that Agen and Sasee got paralyzed by fear. But considering how he wanks Sidious' speed in other topic I definitely don't feel like giving him that element of a doubt.

I don't see how I'm wanking his speed. I don't even like Sidious...

Unless you want to start whining about canon, I don't see where fault in my argument about Sidious' speed lies.

I don't need to whine about canon. Arguing that Windu would lose to b-team despite the fact that he defeated Sidious is plain ridiculous.
Windu does not fight as aggressively as Sidious, so b-team will definitely last a bit longer. But assuming that they actually can win is amusing at best.

I see. So Windu is going to immerse himself fully into Vaapad and harbour Sidious-level amounts of darkness against this trio of Jedi? Cool story bro.

I kind of prefer the one where Windu performs how he does under normal circumstances and loses to the B-Team, but hey, suit yourself.

Windu doesn't need a darksider to immerse himself fully into Vaapad. He demonstrated it even on blaster bolts.

TPM Maul failed to react Sidious is EU dog crap imo. Fisto managed to tag Sidious for a while, so is Fisto faster than TPM Maul ? Even if he is I doubt there is too much difference.

Also one of the feat happened when Maul caught off guard and Sidious take his weapon leave him vulnerable, of course Maul would failed to tag him while he was un-armed.

Not to mention, Sidious himself also said that ''Maul fought good.'' So it is kind of inconsistent, especially Maul tagged Sidious in Hypori while he was wounded and starving to the death, it is a good feat.

Fisto had Mace aiding him, and he still couldn't perceive Sidious, and I also didn't say that Maul couldn't react to Sidious - only that he couldn't see him. That's the third time now someone has failed to interpret what I'm saying.

Maul trying to tag Sidious (he wasn't) would be irrelevant in the showing where Sidious outlines Maul's body with a saber faster than he can see. Even if he was trying to tag Sidious it wouldn't affect his perception speeds.

Sidious was holding back monumentally on Maul during the showing on Hypori. That's why he opted to use a training saber while Maul had a real one. And Maul being able to bite him really isn't indicative of any inconsistency. You're just reaching, as usual.

"he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber" - as in, he showed a lot of willpower, which was the entire point of the trial on Hypori. It wasn't in reference to his fight with Sidious in in terms of skill or speed, due to the fact Sidious was dodging him at speeds too fast for him to perceive, beating him with a training saber and disarming him in a single move.

Originally posted by Arhael
Windu doesn't need a darksider to immerse himself fully into Vaapad. He demonstrated it even on blaster bolts. Of course!

Originally posted by ILS
Fisto had Mace aiding him, and he still couldn't perceive Sidious, and I also didn't say that Maul couldn't react to Sidious - only that he couldn't see him. That's the third time now someone has failed to interpret what I'm saying.

How do you know that Fisto couldn't perceive Sidious?

If Maul is capable to react to someone's attacks, it is pointless to bring speed argument with him. First of all it is just an exaggerated metaphor. And even if we consider it a real thing, it doesn't prove anything, eye perception is unreliable, that's why Force users rely on pre-cog.


Thing is, if Sidious had training lightsaber, he didn't need to hold back at all, on opposite he could afford to go all out without fear of losing Maul. Regardless, you just make more wank here by interpreting things they way it suits you.

Back to the topic. You assume that Windu is not as capable under normal circumstances, good luck proving that because you can't.

Originally posted by Arhael
eye perception is unreliable, that's why Force users rely on pre-cog.

Also we should note that, Obi-Wan failed to see Fisto vs. Ventress duel in CD (mind numbing speed) , but clearly he could match with them in a one-on-one duel easily, eye perception is certainly not reliable in SW Mythos.

This thread is ****ing hilarious. In fact, this board in regards to anything to do with the prequel trilogy is hilarious. I shouldn't need to explain why "mind numbing" has nothing to do with perception speed...

Originally posted by Marco1907
eye perception is certainly not reliable in SW Mythos.




Not that anyone actually is "Invisible" when they move in SW.

I do actually think though It'd make more sense to assume Sidious froze Kolar with Tk. There's simply no other explanation for a Jedi Master just freezing the way he did.

Tiin on the other hand was killed killed via Sidious's mobility- (He swung around to hit Tiin). And Fisto just through Sidious being faster, having far superior Pre-Cog and skill. But even in that situation, Fisto can clearly fend off a few strikes.

Ahhh gotcha.

"Mind numbing" and "blur" = "Too fast to see" and "too fast to follow"

Awesome. Makes sense.

Originally posted by ILS
Ahhh gotcha.

"Mind numbing" and "blur" = "Too fast to see" and "too fast to follow"

Awesome. Makes sense.

Don't sing it bring it.

Show us all Sidious being invisible. Post a video. Shouldn't Be difficult considering he's fought the 2 most powerful Jedi in live action with Cgi effects plus fought in animation.

You're accusing this thread of being ridiculous, yet all you're going by is hyperbole statements. Post this "invisible" speed or rethink your stance.

Force Users aren't invisible in canon - I'm referencing Legends. In Legends Darth Maul can see people who move nigh-imperceptibly fast in slow motion, yet he can't see Sidious. How fast do you think that makes him?

Vader himself has materialized out of thin air by moving fast enough, people move imperceptibly fast all the time. Maybe if you picked up a book and stopped watching animations you'd figure that out. Making Force Users too fast to see from the audiences perspective makes no sense because you'd be watching nothing.......

It's hinted in the novel that Saesee might have been screwed over telepathically before he was physically cut down.

I wouldn't hold too much weight in that, though. The more likely explanation is simply that none of them were truly expecting the Chancellor to hurl himself at four Council Masters with a battle cry in the middle of his office-for just about anyone else that would be suicide. They were expecting another Dooku--none of them were prepared for the skill or speed or ferocity that Palpatine possessed. Kit was the only member of the strike force who was actually worried about the mission's success.

Also, hasn't it already been covered that Gillard himself specified that Star Wars combat sequences are slowed down to our level of awareness? What's the point of watching a movie of nigh-imperceptible blurs flickering across the screen?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The more likely explanation is simply that none of them were truly expecting the Chancellor to hurl himself at four Council Masters with a battle cry in the middle of his office-for just about anyone else that would be suicide. They were expecting another Dooku--none of them were prepared for the skill or speed or ferocity that Palpatine possessed. Kit was the only member of the strike force who was actually worried about the mission's success.




Especially a Juyo specialist like him. That's also makes sense if we compare Maul & Savage vs. Sidious duel with this one (like Filoni did) since both Maul and Savage were using Juyo, it was a familiar style to them to counter Sidious's, while Jedi Council members certainly were not expecting something like this ;

''the Chancellor to hurl himself at four Council Masters with a battle cry in the middle of his office-for just about anyone else that would be suicide. They were expecting another Dooku--none of them were prepared for the skill or speed or ferocity that Palpatine possessed. ''

Originally posted by ILS
Force Users aren't invisible in canon - I'm referencing Legends. In Legends Darth Maul can see people who move nigh-imperceptibly fast in slow motion, yet he can't see Sidious. How fast do you think that makes him?

Vader himself has materialized out of thin air by moving fast enough, people move imperceptibly fast all the time. Maybe if you picked up a book and stopped watching animations you'd figure that out. Making Force Users too fast to see from the audiences perspective makes no sense because you'd be watching nothing.......

Lol maybe if you could differentiate between hyperbole statements and actual visual feats you would wake up to the reality of how force users move.

Even in your precious Legends the animation and films ALWAYS took priority over it. You would know that if you actually understood the material you read.

And yes it is very easy to sow invisible speed for audiences to see. Just go watch the Matrix or a Superman movie.

Somebody's mad.

Just for the record...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-14-2014/MRQKLg.gif

Jedi using force augmentation to move at imperceptible speeds is far from far fetched, unless you'd like to argue Qui-Gon is as fast as Yoda or Palpatine, or even Maul? No? Cool.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Just for the record...



Jedi using force augmentation to move at imperceptible speeds is far from far fetched, unless you'd like to argue Qui-Gon is as fast as Yoda or Palpatine, or even Maul? No? Cool.

Yeah because I never knew about that scene

That was a short sprint. Luke also does an incredibly fast leap in ESB. And that's really useful for surprise attack, or to dodge blaster bolts e.t.c.

Sprints and leaps are one thing though. But when you have a clear example of Jedi/Sith actually "Continuously Fighting" at invisible speeds, then come back to me.

If they could do that then there would have been no fight between Maul and Vizsla. Or Jango and Kenobi. Or Jango and Mace.

The Mandalorians are exceptional in this series imo. Nevertheless, Force senstives are not at an entire different tier in SW, AotC showed us that many Jedi can be killed by mere battle droids. Without the clones, Jedi was doomed. Order 66 another example.

Or this ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI9AsgYfrko

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
that's really useful for surprise attack,

^ A Bullrush attack is what I meant here.

Just to clarify I'm not suggesting Jedi/Sith have no superhuman speed whatsoever.

I'm saying it's been exaggerated a lot. They are not "invisible" to other people let alone to other Jedi.

And their fastest application of speed is through short burst leaps or sprints.

Their speed is more like Blade or Spider-man. It's nothing like The Flash or Quicksilver. The Invisible thing is hyperbole.

Also I agree with Marco that Mandalorian warriors tend to be exceptional. But hardly invisible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Somebody's mad.

Another example, Latts Razzi (a mere bounty hunter) vs. Shaak Ti ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/cw641-24_zps311895c0.jpg

Shaak Ti hating and awesome art work in one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1mbZ_MMh8

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Sprints and leaps are one thing though. But when you have a clear example of Jedi/Sith actually "Continuously Fighting" at invisible speeds, then come back to me.


1.) Does it really matter, since the subject at hand is the B-Team being blitzed by Palpatine? Pretty sure that could qualify as a "bulrush" or "surprise" attack, or whatever you were going on about.

2.) Again, I'm almost positive Nick Gillard has pointed out in interviews that the movements of Jedi are slowed down to the audience's level of awareness in the fight scenes. The image I provided demonstrates the speed that Jedi can actually move at.

For example, the Kenobi/Jinn vs Maul fight--At the very end, we see Kenobi racing down a hallway as Maul and Jinn duel in hopes of getting to the final chamber before the ray shields re-activated. Don't you think that if Kenobi could have been moving faster with a "burst of speed" or whatever you want to call it, he would have?

1. I suppose. Just didn't seem very fast. Though he did leap at them, so it's possible. But then Fisto did block a few strikes, so he clearly wasn't completely invisible to Fisto at least.

2. Not sure where Gillard said that. But it doesn't matter, because we've seen their true combat speed now in animation form. And again their fastest depiction of speed is shown when they leap. Considering Yoda and Sidious leap around a lot more than other Jedi/Sith during combat that's probably the main factor around them being faster than others.

Kenobi may have been too tired by that point in the fight to do a high speed sprint. I mean that's actually just more proof they're not that fast throughout a fight, or at any time they desire. We did however see him leap up to their level fast, which is why I keep saying that's where we see their super speed for the most part, through leaps.

IF the super fast sprint was something they could do at any time, then surely the Jedi on Geonosis would have had no problem just sprinting through the entire droid army which was about to destroy them.

So that's just how I see it for now until more "Visual" evidence presents itself. Maybe next year in Episode 7.

BUMP

B-team easily.

Nah, Mace.

Everyone in the B-Team is level7 at best, Mace is borderline 9. TPM Maul (8) could beat 2 level7 with room to spare.

Nah, imho Agen is a low 8.
But yeah, Mace should win.

Don't see how Agen would be significantly better than Fisto...

Mace wins, comfortably

Originally posted by Azronger
B-team easily.

The Sids fanboy strikes again. So the team beats a guy who beat the guy who easily blitzed them in 3 seconds? Retardation for he loss

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The Sids fanboy strikes again. So the team beats a guy who beat the guy who easily blitzed them in 3 seconds? Retardation for he loss

Coming from you that means I'm normal.

yeah sure bud, logic is your enemy, clearly

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah, Mace.

Everyone in the B-Team is level7 at best, Mace is borderline 9. TPM Maul (8) could beat 2 level7 with room to spare.


This.


Also let's not forget his TK is well ahead of the team.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, imho Agen is a low 8.
That's factually wrong, lmfao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's factually wrong, lmfao.
Umm...why?
I thought he only mentioned Fisto

They go on to say only the main characters are "enlightened."

The B-Team is your definitive 7. That's why there's a B in front of their name.

Ant is right here. The reality is, Mace would curb this team, especially if he's going all out