Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

who wins who dies?

Anakin due to approachable skill and much greater power.

Windu 10 / 10. It has been already confirmed that he was only second to Yoda, at the time Anakin and Obi-Wan were still Jedi Knights. You can argue Windu vs. Dooku, since Dooku was no Jedi Knight when this info pop out, but Windu is superior duelist to both Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Anakin's own words ;

'"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu.''

He is basically comparing Yoda to Windu.

And let the retardation begin...

RotS Anakin was not on Windu's level yet.

Found some new accolades for Mace guys.

It's really irrelevant considering how Mace suggests that Anakin might be even more powerful than Yoda is, twice.

If you want take Anakin's opinion seriously, he also firmly believes he's the most powerful Jedi on the Council.

Obi-Wan also compared Windu to Yoda.

I never said Windu is the best lightsaber duelist of all time. I am just presenting the sources about Windu.

Lucas, Obi-Wan and Anakin, all of these guys compared him to Yoda. And Gillard already said that he is only second to Yoda.

Originally posted by Marco1907
'"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu.''

He is basically comparing Yoda to Windu.

No he is not... He is comparing Kenobi too Windu. There is absolutely no comparison between Yoda and Windu in that line.

Anyway, Windu wins because of Vaapad's loop.

On topic, my answer is the same as it basically always has been. I think Mace would win, more or less 6-7/10. Generally speaking, Anakin is the more formidable warrior--however, his fiery passion that he used to overwhelm Dooku will be turned right back into his face against a master of Vaapad.

EDIT: @Marco - Nick Gillard's statement was as of AotC, and he explicitly states that as of RotS Anakin has jumped up to Mace's and Yoda's level. Secondly, several people in RotS allude to Anakin being perhaps the most powerful Jedi alive, including the omniscient narrator, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Yep. If Anakin could learn to not rely on fear and anger, he'd have a better edge. Or even if he stayed in balance more. But nope.

But then again, would Anakin truly be as powerful as he is without it?

Originally posted by NewGuy01


EDIT: @Marco - Nick Gillard's statement was as of AotC, and he explicitly states that as of RotS Anakin has jumped up to Mace's and Yoda's level. Secondly, several people in RotS allude to Anakin being perhaps the most powerful Jedi alive, including the omniscient narrator, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Actually, Nick's rankings in RotS makes no sense to me. Because the reasons ;

1- He put Sidious, Yoda, Dooku and Anakin in a same tier. Which is stupid.
2- Then he said Anakin & Obi-Wan matched each other perfectly

Nope. His fury was what allowed him to defeat Dooku.

Still putting Anakin & Dooku in a same tier with Sidious was still stupid.

Not Dooku. Mace, Yoda, and Anakin were said to be up with Sidious, that's all he said.



He wasn't speaking of their levels of ability--He'd already established that the gap between them was enormous. He was talking about their respective fighting styles, and familiarity with each other's habits if you will.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Actually, Nick's rankings in RotS makes no sense to me. Because the reasons ;

1- He put Sidious, Yoda, Dooku and Anakin in a same tier. Which is stupid.
2- Then he said Anakin & Obi-Wan matched each other perfectly

1. He puts Sidious, Yoda, Windu and Anakin on the same level (in terms of Saber duelling). He doesn't mention Dooku.

2. He explains they are equal, when fighting each other, because they know each others moves inside out. But he still made it clear Anakin is a level above Kenobi.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Still putting Anakin & Dooku in a same tier with Sidious was still stupid.
In terms of saber skill? These are absolute masters we're talking about here. Even Kenobi is up there, honestly.

I don't see any speed or skill disparity between Anakin & Obi-Wan here, honestly. This is a really good example since they were fighting against the basically same level opponents ;

mOs1vxDfuy0

^ There's a huge strength, stamina and power gap though.

Windu dies

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ There's a huge strength, stamina and power gap though.

According to Mustafar duel, there shouldn't be.

izcL3dH5hWc

^ There's a reason Kenobi kept moving backwards. And it's not just because he's a defensive fighter. He was constantly giving ground to neutralise Anakin's strength advantage. The script even states Kenobi was being "forced" backwards.

Plus the script describes the Anakin, Dooku, Kenobi fight describing Anakin getting stronger as the fight went on whilst Kenobi and Dooku got weaker. The novel describes a similar situation.

Obi-Wan had better balance, while Anakin lacks that. So, it is true that Anakin had better strength and stamina, but he still failed to use it properly against Obi-Wan.



That balance of Obi-Wan is even better at Windu tbh.

^ Ok what about the passage of the novel with Kenobi trying anything desperate to slow Skywalker down? And with Skywalker Force slamming Kenobi against the room?

The novel also makes it clear they knew each others moves inside out, which is the same thing Nick Gillard said. Which was the reason given for them being so equal in skill and combat prowess.

Well, I know one thing now, we should consider ''balance'' in these debates from now on, clearly Obi-Wan was not faster and stronger than Anakin but he still won in the end. RotS Novel implies that he won because of the ''balance''.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, I know one thing now, we should consider ''balance'' in these debates from now on, clearly Obi-Wan was not faster and stronger than Anakin but he still won in the end. RotS Novel implies that he won because of the ''balance''.

But the film showed he won by gaining the tactical advantage. Nothing to do with Fencing Prowess.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the film showed he won by gaining the tactical advantage. Nothing to do with Fencing Prowess.

Well that too, I agree. 'Sokan' is another weapon of Kenobi. He used that technique many times, even before Mustafar as well.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/dfgdfgd_zps305ba0b6.jpg

Lets say he stalemated via balance advantage, won via tactical advantage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the film showed he won by gaining the tactical advantage. Nothing to do with Fencing Prowess.

Still, Anakin made a tactical mistake that Obi-wan wouldn't. Windu is a superior combatant to Kenobi and there is no reason to believe Anakin would do better against Windu. Besides, the calm ROTS Anakin wouldn't be as powerful as he was at that point and a raged Anakin would do even worse against Windu.

Originally posted by Sinious
Windu is a superior combatant to Kenobi and there is no reason to believe Anakin would do better against Windu.

Except Dooku is also a superior combatant to Kenobi, and Skywalker DID perform better against Dooku than he did against Kenobi, so your point is void.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Except Dooku is also a superior combatant to Kenobi, and Skywalker DID perform better against Dooku than he did against Kenobi, so your point is void.

But we know that part of the fight was majorly circumstantial and in the exact same situation, it would go the opposite way with Windu.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I don't see any speed or skill disparity between Anakin & Obi-Wan here, honestly. This is a really good example since they were fighting against the basically same level opponents ;

mOs1vxDfuy0
In movies and TCW you will not see speed disparity even between Force sensitives and non-sensitives. Skill is determined by the ability to outskill opponent. More skilled one is not going to look more impressive, he is just less likely to lose a fight. And how fast a fight ends depends on circumstances. In other words you can't really use that as an example.


How do you know how it would go with Windu? 0.o

If we remove circumstances, it leaves both Anakin and Windu with the same saber prowess but Anakin has power advantage, which gives Anakin higher win probability.

Originally posted by ILS
And let the retardation begin...

u mad

I'm mad that people overstate Mace's skill, when in All honesty his dueling feats barely put him above Kenobi

I have no problem with that as long as the madness is stated.

You werent quoting me dawg. Windu struggled with Bulq, Tiin, Ventress, and Grievous. He'd fare no better than Dooku did against the flaming passion of the furnace heart

I know I didn't quote you but I assumed you shared a similar opinion.

Originally posted by carthage
I'm mad that people overstate Mace's skill, when in All honesty his dueling feats barely put him above Kenobi
In all honesty difference between 8 and 9 is indeed bare.

And I assume you'd wank Windu in spite of the fact his showings are more comparable to Kenobi than posters here want to admit

Originally posted by Arhael

How do you know how it would go with Windu? 0.o

If we remove circumstances, it leaves both Anakin and Windu with the same saber prowess but Anakin has power advantage, which gives Anakin higher win probability.

Never underestimate the power of Vaapad. Besides, they were in a pretty narrow area while fighting and Anakin's dueling style isn't gonna stress Windu as much as it did Dooku.

Originally posted by carthage
You werent quoting me dawg. Windu struggled with Bulq, Tiin, Ventress, and Grievous. He'd fare no better than Dooku did against the flaming passion of the furnace heart
Being more skilled doesn't mean he not gonna struggle against inferior opponents. We are not discussing Karpyshyn material here.


Vaapad is what allows Windo to perform at his best ability, which is guess what:
level 9

Dooku's style is not weaker than Mace's against Anakin.

Originally posted by Sinious
Besides, they were in a pretty narrow area while fighting and Anakin's dueling style isn't gonna stress Windu as much as it did Dooku.

What? No. By ROTS Anakin was just more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1. He puts Sidious, Yoda, Windu and Anakin on the same level (in terms of Saber duelling). He doesn't mention Dooku.

2. He explains they are equal, when fighting each other, because they know each others moves inside out. But he still made it clear Anakin is a level above Kenobi.

Considering Anakin and Mace are on Dooku's level, that'd put them as 9s as well.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering Anakin and Mace are on Dooku's level, that'd put them as 9s as well.

I'm not saying Dooku wasn't a 9. Just that he wasn't mentioned.

But to be honest, I think both ROTS Anakin and Windu are "stronger" duellists than Dooku. But I've always maintained that Dooku is one of the top elite in terms of combat skill and could comfortably stalemate Windu if he just fights defensively.

If he tries to overpower Windu however I see Windu's superior strength giving him the win.

Originally posted by carthage
And I assume you'd wank Windu in spite of the fact his showings are more comparable to Kenobi than posters here want to admit

So u mad. That's all I needed to know.

Lowball all you want per usual, matching Sidious as said in the other thread with his unseen speed or skill is an impressive feat, vapaad's amp being irrelevant.

Maybe Anakin beats him but suggesting Mace is unskilled or is heavily outskilled is being mad for the sake of being mad.

Originally posted by Arhael

Vaapad is what allows Windo to perform at his best ability, which is guess what:
level 9

Dooku's style is not weaker than Mace's against Anakin.

His best varies with the opponent wouldn't you agree?

I mean, at his best he defeated Sidious after all. Something Anakin couldn't hope to achieve at that point.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? No. By ROTS Anakin was just more powerful than Dooku.

and Windu wasn't?

Originally posted by Sinious
His best varies with the opponent wouldn't you agree?

I mean, at his best he defeated Sidious after all. Something Anakin couldn't hope to achieve at that point.


and Windu wasn't?
Anakin would have as much chance as Windu.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? No. By ROTS Anakin was just more powerful than Dooku.

Dude just accept this fact already, Dooku only lose because of Kinetic power of Djem-So x Makashi loop (this is even in Novel), not because Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, otherwise Anakin could wipe the floor with Obi-Wan but he didn't only stalemate with him, he also lost to Obi-Wan.

TCW also showed that Dooku had hard time against Savage Opress's kinetic power, Dooku has weakness and Anakin had the ability to reveal it not Obi-Wan.

MagnaGuards example is also proves this, Anakin & Obi-Wan were at the same level in terms of dueling ability.

Originally posted by Sinious
and Anakin's dueling style isn't gonna stress Windu as much as it did Dooku.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dude just accept this fact already, Dooku only lose because of Kinetic power of Djem-So x Makashi loop (this is even in Novel), not because Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, otherwise Anakin could wipe the floor with Obi-Wan but he didn't only stalemate with him, he also lost to Obi-Wan.

TCW also showed that Dooku had hard time against Savage Opress's kinetic power, Dooku has weakness and Anakin had the ability to reveal it not Obi-Wan.

MagnaGuards example is also proves this, Anakin & Obi-Wan were at the same level in terms of dueling ability.





Anakin and Obi-Wan were at the same level of "skill". But Gillard clearly put Anakin on the same level as Yoda, Mace and Sidious in overall Saber Prowess. A level above Kenobi.

Dooku had no "weakness" to Kinetic energy. You need to get that silly idea out of your head. The ROTS novel never once says that's the reason Dooku lost to Anakin. What it says in fact is that Anakin's immense Power just made all of Dooku's skill and Force Knowledge a complete Joke.

It's actually Kenobi who was able to be Skywalker's equal when fighting him, due to a Clash Of Styles and Intimate Knowledge of Each Other.

Kenobi's Soresu simply gave ground to compensate for Skywalker's superior strength. It's possible Dooku could fight Mace equally in the same way.


Savage landed 1 successful hit on Dooku. JUST 1. Which you keep harping on about, even though you know very well Dooku was fighting off 2 opponents in a cramped space on that fight.

Skywalker used Djem So throughout all of his fights against Dooku, yet his kinetic energy was never beyond Dooku's means to handle throughout TCW. In fact he was Stalemating both Kenobi and Skywalker combined in just Sabers during their Season 6 battle.

Marco is time you accepted that the scene of Skywalker defeating Dooku was put there to show just how Powerful Skywalker was by this point. It wasn't put there to show Makashi's weakness to Djem So LOL.

"Soon I will have a new apprentice. One Far Younger AND MORE POWERFUL!"

@DP

And Lucas never put Anakin in a same level with Yoda and Mace ;



Lucas > Gillard nonetheless

And Lucas is the responsible for the Savage overpowered Dooku with one stroke thing, was Savage's power greater than Dooku ? Of course not.

All things considered, I think Dooku supporters trying to show Anakin as some kind of unstopable god to finding an excuse for Dooku's defeat in Invisible Hand, but thing is, Anakin was not powerful as you people think.

Anakin's balance was not good enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Nor he was powerful enough to stomps the likes of Asajj Ventress, Barriss Offee etc.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin would have as much chance as Windu.

Are you saying that Anakin has as much chance as Vaapad Windu against Sidious?

Originally posted by Sinious
Are you saying that Anakin has as much chance as Vaapad Windu against Sidious?

Maybe not, because Skywalker takes time to get stronger. And he needs to be at full strength from the beginning of a fight against Sidious, which he wouldn't be.

Once he is at full strength though, Skywalker is a match for FULL ON VAPAAD WINDU!

And no, Dooku never defeated Anakin in a lightsaber duel at TCW as well, he was losing to him twice, he saved himself with magnaguards in the first one, in the second he used his force powers. (same thing with Savage)

First ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqeEjv1_eOc


Second ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSO1SjHQfCA

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe not, because Skywalker takes time to get stronger. And he needs to be at full strength from the beginning of a fight against Sidious, which he wouldn't be.


You're seriously overestimating Anakin. Sidious would destroy him.

Originally posted by Sinious
You're seriously overestimating Anakin. Sidious would destroy him.

Originally posted by Sinious
You're seriously overestimating Anakin. Sidious would destroy him.
And you are seriously underestimating Anakin. He is "...up there with Sidious".

Originally posted by Arhael
And you are seriously underestimating Anakin. He is "...up there with Sidious".

Do you really believe that shit.... ?

Gillard talks nonsense in there tbh, he also said ''Obi and Anakin just match each other PERFECTLY.''

All people need to ignore Gillard's rankings on Anakin's power level. Lucas already explained Anakin was not on the same level with the Emperor, Yoda and Mace.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-12_zpsaf844551.jpg

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-14_zpsf05782bb.jpg

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-15_zps2fc0749d.jpg

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-16_zps1c1e67b7.jpg

Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you really believe that shit.... ?

Gillard talks nonsense in there tbh, he also said ''Obi and Anakin just match each other PERFECTLY.''

All people need to ignore Gillard's rankings on Anakin's power level. Lucas already explained Anakin was not on the same level with the Emperor, Yoda and Mace.
Those are Lucas rankings, Gillard did not invent them. The only nonsense is you dismissing it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Those are Lucas rankings, Gillard did not invent them. The only nonsense is you dismissing it.

And why Lucas didn't add Anakin here ;



Gillard contradict himself about Anakin, his statement means nothing.

Except Anakin is explicitly mentioned in the quote you provided.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except Anakin is explicitly mentioned in the quote you provided.

Yes, that's why Lucas said it was too early for Anakin to challange the Emperor.



In RotS , Mace and Yoda were capable of doing such a thing, not Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not saying Dooku wasn't a 9. Just that he wasn't mentioned.

But to be honest, I think both ROTS Anakin and Windu are "stronger" duellists than Dooku. But I've always maintained that Dooku is one of the top elite in terms of combat skill and could comfortably stalemate Windu if he just fights defensively.

If he tries to overpower Windu however I see Windu's superior strength giving him the win.


Except its explicitly stated that Dooku regularly whooped Mace when they dueled.

Except that was way before Mace's prime, probably Mace wasn't even on the Jedi Council when that happened.

-Dooku's age ; 80

-Mace's age ; 50

And Mace's sparring match performances against his jedi friends are not really good, he seems equal with Saesee Tiin, and he was holding back against Sora and even against Quinlan Vos, on the other hand Dooku was very competitive in sparring matches unlike Mace is.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/blz13_zpsce571088.jpg

Then Dooku escapes...

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/blz14_zps1f70bfa4.jpg

@Lord Stark

When do you think Mace and Dooku were sparring each other ? Dooku already lost his interest to Jedi Order even before TPM, their sparring matches should be at least 10 years before TPM imho.

Still we don't know the exact time when they ''sparred each other'' still sparring means a little, unless you do really think Saesee Tiin = Mace Windu

Not to mention I have sparring examples between Obi-Wan and Anakin in TCW, I could use them for backing up my point here, (Anakin = Obi-Wan) but I will not use it.

Originally posted by Marco1907

In RotS , Mace and Yoda were capable of doing such a thing, not Anakin.
You are not a deciding body here.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, I know one thing now, we should consider ''balance'' in these debates from now on, clearly Obi-Wan was not faster and stronger than Anakin but he still won in the end. RotS Novel implies that he won because of the ''balance''.

Now I remember, a ''balance'' lesson from Master Windu.


http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsCloneWarsVolume1-090_zps907cbb37.jpg

Originally posted by Marco1907
Lucas already explained Anakin was not on the same level with the Emperor, Yoda and Mace.

No he didn't. On the contrary it was Lucas who wanted Anakin to overpower even more powerful force users than Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except Anakin is explicitly mentioned in the quote you provided.



People tend to ignore that part, and usually even omit it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he didn't. On the contrary it was Lucas who wanted Anakin to overpower even more powerful force users than Yoda and Sidious.

That was future talking of Lucas, if ''Anakin hadn't got all beat up'' clearly his lost against Obi-Wan was fair and square, but if he hadn't got all beat up, he could be more powerful than he was in RotS, only then he could defeat the Emperor, in RotS, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, RotS Anakin was not on that level yet, that is why he lost to Obi-Wan, and even Yoda anticipated that Kenobi could defeat RotS Anakin,

--- Revenge of the Sith Comic Book

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-11_zps112a7c88.jpg



http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-04_zps523d3be2.jpg

Originally posted by Marco1907
@Lord Stark

When do you think Mace and Dooku were sparring each other ? Dooku already lost his interest to Jedi Order even before TPM, their sparring matches should be at least 10 years before TPM imho.

Lol no. Dooku and Mace were friends up until the very end. And also the fact that Yoda is mentioned in the exact same ****ing quote suggests that it was more than a mere sparring session.



Strawman.
"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."

It was not mere sparring.



This is such a strawman of my argument. I'm not saying because Dooku and Windu sparred, Dooku can fight Windu. I am saying that because its explicitly stated that Dooku beat Windu RIGHT AFTER it says Yoda did is saying something.

Needless to say that if there was a quote that said Mace used to whoop Dooku in sparring sessions you'd be prancing that around these boards.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That was future talking of Lucas, if ''Anakin hadn't got all beat up'' clearly his lost against Obi-Wan was fair and square, but if he hadn't got all beat up, he could be more powerful than he was in RotS, only then he could defeat the Emperor, in RotS, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, RotS Anakin was not on that level yet, that is why he lost to Obi-Wan, and even Yoda anticipated that Kenobi could defeat RotS Anakin,


What future? What time in the future did he specify? He could have meant right after beating Obi-Wan. And even if we assume your interpretation is what he was saying, it is retconned by the Mortis trilogy which came directly from Lucas.

In any case is all irrelevant because Lucas didn't say you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Windu. He never stated it to be an interdependent triangle.


It's Kenobi who could match Anakin due to a Clash Of styles. You insist that Anakin beat Dooku due to a Clash Of Styles (even though it was clear he won because he was simply more powerful than Dooku). But you ignore the more obvious possibility that the clash of styles was between Kenobi and Skywalker whose intimate knowledge of each others moves and styles is mentioned by Gillard and in the ROTS novel.

Soresu also being a defensive form is the perfect tool to tackle a stronger opponent by simply giving more ground.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


It was not mere sparring.



What they did then ? Serious duel to the death ? If not, that is sparring match nonetheless. No different than Saesee Tiin vs. Mace.
If you really believe that Dooku could defeat Windu in a one-on-one, he shouldn't have to escape when they meet in clone wars.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER



It's Kenobi who could match Anakin due to a Clash Of styles. You insist that Anakin beat Dooku due to a Clash Of Styles (even though it was clear he won because he was simply more powerful than Dooku). But you ignore the more obvious possibility that the clash of styles was between Kenobi and Skywalker whose intimate knowledge of each others moves and styles is mentioned by Gillard and in the ROTS novel.

Soresu also being a defensive form is the perfect tool to tackle a stronger opponent by simply giving more ground.

''His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.''
--- Revenge of the Sith

What did you understand here ? Or they just put this sentence for nothing.

Soresu x Djem-So doesn't have any loop like this, and you can't prove unlike I just did.

Do you really believe I would just lowball Dooku because I don't like him (which is not true, I like Dooku) or for another reason ? It is simple fact, Dooku has big advantage against the classic styles of Jedi, such as shii-cho, soresu, ataru etc. He can even hold his own against Yoda's superior ataru because of that reason. But on the other he get literally one-shot from Savage's raw kinetic power of strong style / juyo. That is Dooku's loop. He has advantages and disadvantages.

Mace Windu, IMO.

Originally posted by Marco1907



''His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.''
--- Revenge of the Sith

What did you understand here ? Or they just put this sentence for nothing.


The meaning of that line is very clear to anyone who actually read the whole passage. It was that Dooku didn't know the form Skywalker was using, so was tackling him in the wrong way upto that point.

But no where in that line did it even suggest it's already over for Dooku due to Djem So's kinetic energy. No where is Makashi said to have a "weakness," to Djem So or to powerful attacks. And at no point was this line related to Skywalker's win over Dooku.

In fact right after that line it's Dooku who floors Skywalker, due to the ONLY actual weakness that IS mentioned, which is Djem So's Lack of Mobility."


Originally posted by Marco1907
Soresu x Djem-So doesn't have any loop like this, and you can't prove unlike I just did.


I didn't say Djem So had a "weakness" to Soresu. Although it's lack of mobility would technically make it weak to Ataro, which Kenobi is also skilled at (his pre-Soresu form).

But Soresu by it's very nature is ideal to deal with Powerful Physical and Force Enhanced Beasts like Skywalker. Kenobi and Skywalker's intimate knowledge of each other's moves is also a factor there according to Nick Gillard, and the ROTS Novel (they spent thousands of hours sparring each other, knew each others moves more intimately than lovers).

Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you really believe I would just lowball Dooku because I don't like him (which is not true, I like Dooku) or for another reason ?


Your intention seems to be to have the Big 3 as Yoda, Sidious and Windu (which a lot of people actually rank that way, so I have no issue with that), but then to have Maul as the next top dog after those 3.

But fact is Dooku is more powerful than Maul, and ROTS Skywalker more powerful than Dooku. So for Maul to be above both of them, you have to give Dooku a weakness to suggest pretty much anyone whose strong and an offensive combatant can take him, and you have to completely deny Skywalker's immense power.


Originally posted by Marco1907
It is simple fact, Dooku has big advantage against the classic styles of Jedi, such as shii-cho, soresu, ataru etc. He can even hold his own against Yoda's superior ataru because of that reason. But on the other he get literally one-shot from Savage's raw kinetic power of strong style / juyo. That is Dooku's loop. He has advantages and disadvantages.

He has a major advantage over Djem So's Lack of Mobility. And Yoda has massive Kinetic energy in his blows (he is the Most Powerful Jedi), yet Dooku fended against his attacks. So your theory and weakness fails here.

Doku defeat windu barely and it was thank to an advantaged tatical position.
Is makashi were far more superior in term of dueling 1 V.S 1 capacity...

Originally posted by ILS
And let the retardation begin... Damn look how right I was.

If Anakin utilised his advantage in Force power he could win, but it doesn't seem like something he does often. In that case Mace probably takes a 6/10.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except its explicitly stated that Dooku regularly whooped Mace when they dueled.

Terrible on many levels. First, it was never stated that he wiped him numerous times, in fact, the narration only goes towards a draw or a slight dooku advantage. Futhermore, this is undoubtedly before Mace's prime and before he invented Vaapad or shatterpoint. Lastly, just like in MMA or boxing... Sparring is vastly different than a real life fight. Especially sparring with friends. This is even more so when we're talking about life and death situations.. Those are exponentially different than sparring among friends. Not even remotely comparable.

ILS is the second ignored... I have had enough of ILS bullshits for today, most of his comments comes from so called experts of Comicvine anyway, ILS doesn't even have any original post, he is just repeating the same fallacy of CV...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Terrible on many levels. First, it was never stated that he wiped him numerous times, in fact, the narration only goes towards a draw or a slight dooku advantage. Futhermore, this is undoubtedly before Mace's prime and before he invented Vaapad or shatterpoint. Lastly, just like in MMA or boxing... Sparring is vastly different than a real life fight. Especially sparring with friends. This is even more so when we're talking about life and death situations.. Those are exponentially different than sparring among friends. Not even remotely comparable.

No one cares enough about you to read the commentary.

Vaapad will give Mace the edge in this fight.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

It never gave him an edge against Bulq, Maul, or Ventress, so why would it work here?

The funny thing is Maul actually has better feats of absorbing an opponents fury than Mace under normal circumstances.

Originally posted by carthage
You have no idea what you're talking about.

It never gave him an edge against Bulq, Maul, or Ventress, so why would it work here?

Maul: We don't know how long they really fought.
Ventress: That wasn't a serious fight. Ventress knew she doesn't stand a chance.

I don't remember what exactly happened when he fought Bulq.

He was holding back against Bulq.

'''Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.

- Source : Fact Files #108'''

Then he stomped Ventress.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-Jedi-MaceWindu-39_zpsed6ef38a.jpg

''Do not assume, however that we are equals, we are not.''

Not to mention, same Ventress was skilled enough to maimed Anakin,

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711173508/starwars/images/f/f0/Anakin_maimed.jpg

Originally posted by Marco1907
He was holding back against Bulq.

'''Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.

- Source : Fact Files #108'''

Then he stomped Ventress.

Thanks. ^^

Originally posted by Marco1907
He was holding back against Bulq.

'''Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.

- Source : Fact Files #108'''

Then he stomped Ventress.
lawl at double standards:
http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/17/73/92/12/mace_v10.jpg

Ventress nor Anakin were not on Mace's level.

As for Maul, well he was good enough to hold his own against Sidious, of course he can give a better fight to Mace.

So much for having me on ignore.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Ventress nor Anakin were not on Mace's level. Strawman argument ftw

Originally posted by Marco1907
Ventress nor Anakin were not on Mace's level.


ROTS Anakin was at least in his league/level, if not his outright equal.

He was more powerful than Dooku, and a Level 9 duelist up with Windu, Sidious and Yoda.

I think that's why he beat Obi-Wan. And stomped Barriss Offee or Asajj Ventress.

Actually, I don't care about Sparring Matches, but it seems some people gives value to them. Then here is, Obi-Wan vs. Anakin ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_Obsession_4_01_zps2ab59975.jpg

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_Obsession_4_02_zps796436de.jpg


http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_Obsession_4_03_zps50ec18d8.jpg

Originally posted by Marco1907
I think that's why he beat Obi-Wan. And stomped Barriss Offee or Asajj Ventress.

That's why he beat the guy who stomped Obi-Wan.

He's beaten Bariss and Ventress, and has grown far more powerful since then. So I don't know why you're bringing up pointless examples.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Actually, I don't care about Sparring Matches, but it seems some people gives value to them. Then here is, Obi-Wan vs. Anakin ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_Obsession_4_01_zps2ab59975.jpg

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_Obsession_4_02_zps796436de.jpg


http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/SW_Obsession_4_03_zps50ec18d8.jpg

That's just confirms the point that they've sparred so much that they know each others moves so well. Which is the reason they are equal when fighting each other.

The novel and Gillard both confirm this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's why he beat the guy who stomped Obi-Wan.


And he still lose to Obi-Wan.

Knowing his style does not mean anything, since Anakin knew Obi-Wan's style as well.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And he still lose to Obi-Wan.

Knowing his style does not mean anything, since Anakin knew Obi-Wan's style as well.

That's why neither could penetrate the others defence. Confirmed by Gillard.

Plus Soresu is the best form to handle Skywalkers raw power. They are equally skilled but Skywalker is much stronger which Soresu compensates for by giving ground.

Kenobi also fights better on his own when he is fully on the defence.

But none of that changes that ROTS Skywalker was more powerful than Dooku, and on the same level as Windu and Sidious in Saber Prowess.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Plus Soresu is the best form to handle Skywalkers raw power.

Says who ? Is this your personal opinion or do you have any official source about it ?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Says who ? Is this your personal opinion or do you have any official source about it ?

What's the point and purpose of Soresu?

It's to handle just that, offensive and powerful Saber attacks. Any source describing Soresu will confirm this.

Soresu would also be the best form to handle Juyo.

If you want to just stalemate your opponent in Sabers and draw the fight out, and if your opponent is strong and powerful, then yeah Soresu is the best form for that obviously. And Kenobi is The Master of Soresu.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What's the point and purpose of Soresu?

It's to handle just that, offensive and powerful attacks. Any source describing Soresu will confirm this.

Well then, I just asked this because as you know there is a part in RotS says Djem-So's kinetic power is a trouble maker for Makashi's elegant style. Which is a official source.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well then, I just asked this because as you know there is a part in RotS says Djem-So's kinetic power is a trouble maker for Makashi's elegant style. Which is a official source.

Only HEAD TO HEAD and WHILE FIGHTING A SECOND OPPONENT.


But you know the same damn source says Dooku's mobility was a trouble maker for Djem So's Lack of Mobility right?

And you know that same damn source makes it clear as Day that Dooku lost to Skywalker because Skywalker was just too damn Powerful right?

And you know the same damn source specifically points out that Kenobi and Skywalker knew each others moves Inside Out right?

Still Dooku's mobility was not part of his makashi, or I have a bad memory. He just changed his tactic there because he was losing bad.

And why knowing each other moves inside out is an advantage for Kenobi, but not for Anakin ? That's also make no sense.

Very excellent trolling by Marco, he has lured you all into a state of mind where you think his replies are legit all the time. He has progressed to the level of Troll Marauder, next step is Magician.

Originally posted by Marco1907


Still Dooku's mobility was not part of his makashi, or I have a bad memory. He just changed his tactic there because he was losing bad.

And why knowing each other moves inside out is an advantage for Kenobi, but not for Anakin ? That's also make no sense.

The fact that Makashi doesn't have that lack of mobility means it's wielder can take advantage of Djem So's weakness.

Your right he had to change tactic, because he was fighting the wrong fight. Kenobi and Skywalker duped him with fake forms. But still saying he was losing badly up to the point where he kick slammed Skywalker and choked out Kenobi is silly.

Because Knowing each others moves inside out makes it a completely different fight. And therefore not comparable to other fights.
Gillard is the one that confirmed neither of them could penetrate each others defence due to their intimate knowledge of each others moves. Not me. The ROTS Novel also emphasises how well they knew each others moves, clearly because it's relevant to the fight.

I've noticed a quote from RotS Novel, from Windu, which says Obi-Wan had a better chance than Anakin to defeat Grievous, and then Obi-Wan didn't mention Anakin's name with Windu & Yoda.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I've noticed a quote from RotS Novel, from Windu, which says Obi-Wan had a better chance than Anakin to defeat Grievous, and then Obi-Wan didn't mention Anakin's name with Windu & Yoda.

He didn't say better chance than Anakin. He said better chance than Any Jedi.

That would include Yoda and Mace, which is obviously silly.

Seems like you've never read the full novel and just grab quotes you like from here and there.

Let me know when you notice the quote from Windu saying "Skywalker is arguably The Most Powerful Jedi Alive.."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't say better chance than Anakin. He said better chance than Any Jedi.

That would include Yoda and Mace, which is obviously silly.

Seems like you've never read the full novel and just grab quotes you like from here and there.

Let me know when you notice the quote from Windu saying "Skywalker is arguably The Most Powerful Jedi Alive.."

No I've read it but I just noticed that now. As for last comparison of Obi-Wan, that is why I mentioned that. Obi-Wan says Yoda and Windu's name but not Anakin's, because he is also inconsistent.

Since you use RotS novel as the most potent proof for your arguments, you should be aware of this passage in the novel:
"This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it."