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i thought it would be cool to discuss the issues in matrix 2 as well as what people think will happen in the 3rd film. warning!!! there will probably be a lot of spoilers in this thread so reader be ware!

k to start it off, i loved this film and as may day to day has progressed i have been thinking a lot about the film. first off i love the issue of the right to choose that ran throughout the film. through the film Neo kept getting told that the disicions he was about to be make were already made (particularly by the oricale). originally when i saw the film i thought she meant that Neos individual choices have already been made, but then when he ran into the dude that made the matrix and he told Neo about all the Zions before it dawned on me that perhaps the oricale meant that all the other "the one"s had to make the same decision, so that decission had already been made by others and now it was his turn to make that decision.
also just a hunch i have for the third film is that the dude that made the matrix just told Neo that to deter him. also at the end of the film when the are attacked by the sentinals, and Neo says that he could feel the sentinals, perhaps he now has some kind of connection to the machines that goes beyond the matrix. just a thought.

good ideas. the bit with choice is straight up David Hume, if anyone gets a chance to read him, do it. Everything has been pre-determined, so the main thing about this movie is, why is he making the choices he makes. and techincally, they aren't choices if they have been pre-determined, but he had the opportunity to not choose B, but chose A anyway. This movie is trying to understand why you would choose A over B

The way i though of it, since there have been 6 matrix constructs, and in each one there has been an Anomaly, and in each one, the Anomaly has chosen to save the human species, and have a new matrix constructed. This time, however, Neo chose to save Trinity.

I think the whole bit of programs hacking programs and programs creating new programs is foreshadowing my thoughts. I believe that each of the Matrix constructs is built within one another. In otherwords, there are six "shells" of programming. So even Zion and what they believe is the "real world" is a previous construct of the matrix. the outermost, 7th "shell" is what i belive is the actual real world.

Anyone who's read Magic: The Gathering series knows that this resembles Phyrexia a whole lot.

I think the fact that he had some control over the machines in the 'real' world makes it seem that that is just a second matrix, but I somehow doubt it. If Reloaded and revolutions are but one movie devided in two, taking place over 24 hours, I doubt they could complete the entire story in only one more movie. (Based on the assumption that the wichowski brothers arent (didnt) do a cheap ending where like they find out the real world is a matrix, everythings fake, and there is no hope, and die, or something)

I saw it, but isn't revolutions the prequel? also is there a preview for it after the credits? I also think that Neo isnt human. He has to be a program, and that program was programed to be human

just a couple off days for me to wait!!

wow, i never thought of it as 6 shells and zion is just part of the outermost matrix. i did think that perhaps Neo was still part of the Matrix when he destroyed the sentinals but considering that when he is in the matrix he sees program script as aposed to what everyone else sees, i would have thought Neo would have quickly determined that he was still in the matrix. i do bet there will somekind of a twist like that though for the final film. thanks a lot tevesh now i am going to be sitting here thinking about that one for awhile, lol.

ya there is a preview of the matrix revolutions after the matric reloaded just saw it it looked awesome and looks like going to be a good fight between neo and smith but no matrix revolutions is not a prequel i thought u said u saw matrix reloaded jimmy?

well i really loved it and some of the technicalities were cool like when they went to the backdoor, as a computer tech myself i know what a computer backdoor is and seeing how they used it in the matrix it was cool also i did got the feeling that the 'real' world was/is another matrix, if not how was Neo able to stop the sentinels and that would explain how agent smith got out to the 'real' world, in Revolutions i wanna see more fights but not only with Neo like Morpheous -vs- The Twins and Trinity -vs- Monica Bellucci(the girl that kissed Neo) and i would like to see more of her because damn she is hot and also i found it kinda weird that as soon as neo finished talking to the Oracle agent smith appear, did she set him up?

No, Smith just has a habit of hunting down Neo methinks.

That French guy is a perv. The cake gave that girl a...

*whistles*

Damn Smiths, they killed the Keymaker! He was awesome! Little old Chinese man that makes keys, he was tight!

Also, it's funny how the room with the creator of the Matrix the TVs relay Neo's emotions. Though Neo says nothing, the TVs started screaming...

"F*** you!"

"Bulls***!"

"You mother****!"

*middle finger*

That was hilarious.

how does the reloaded end again
tell me the last five minutes

can any of you tell me how reloaded ends?
please
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok well they are all in morpheus ship then the siren goes off telling there is a sentinel or sentinels in this case are nere by and neo tells they everybody they just threw a bomb so there running off the ship and it explodes and then the machines were coming after them and neo turns around and stops and he says somethings different i can feel them so he puts out his arm and tells the machines to shut down and he goes into a coma and there was a survivor in this big wreck and it's a guy that agent smith infected him

well I dont care what goes on in this movie but for those who havent seen it USE SPOILER TAGS OR THIS ONE WILL GET CLOSED PRETTY QUICKLY

hehe nice one finti
well that idea o the real world just being another matrix is a nice concept
but I dont believe neo to be a program, seems a bit far fetched imo,
but I do think that revolutions will hold an amazing ending

****SPOILER ALERT****
I liked this movie alot. And it gives me more questions this time around.

Ok one thing that comes to mind is, that French dude.
Before they met with him, the oracle, said, that he is a program. She explained
him in accordance to those phenomena that happens like UFO's and such,
as being a result of disgruntal programs, who rebel aginst being Replaced, by other
Programs.

Now from what I gathered, during the fight scene with Neo at the Staircase
in the french dudes house. Earlier the French Dudes girlfriend siad that
Neo reminded her of what her Boyfriend USED to be like. Not only that during the fight scene
on the staircase, I think there were a total of 4 guys fighting Neo at once. I remember the french guy saying, They are your predecessors.
Is he saying they were all Neo's at one point in time?

Well There were about 4 guys, plus the French dude, plus Neo, then that makes,
6 of them. And the Architect said they've done this 5 times before. And being that
the French guy was very synacle, if he was a former Neo, that would explain his attitude.
And it would fit perfectly into what Oracle said about Programs that get replaced.
She allready said he was Replaced, and Im beggining to think, Neo Replaced him.
So if Neo replaced a Program...What does that make Neo?

It could be that the French dude, infact was "the one" at some point.
He thought he was a real person at once, and chose the other door to Save the world.
Once the cycle starts over again, he got replaced by Neo. But still he only exists in the Matrix.


But Im probably wrong, it still interests me.


Other things that seemed important to me, was
the fact that smith, inhabited a Real mans body, and crossing over to the
real world. Also Neo Using his powers outside the Matrix. That to me was the
Most surprising scene of the movie. I mean it comes right off the heels of neo telling
Morpheus there is no Prophecy, it was false..and then Bam that happens.
I think they actually missed the opportunity to show a reaction from Morpheus about that.

And something is telling me that this is not part of the program of the machines. Why would they want
Neo to function outside of their control? This is why I still believe in the prophecy. Things are
happening regardless of the Matrix's influence. Neo did something out of the ordinary, that even changed
Smith. And somehow through all of this I can see smith becoming a good guy, or
somehow part of the solution. Hell HE may save the people of Zion and
the rest of the world.

I also think this movie probably could have done at least one reference showing the Biliions of
people that are enslaved. In the grand scheme of things Zion is so small,
the actual slaves of the matrix are many. To me that's the key, that's the main goal.

There are a couple of things that I was unsure of though. Was the french Dudes girlfriend a Program?
Or is she actually a human enslaved in the Matrix. And the same question for the key maker.
That to me is unclear and can go either way.

****SPOILER END****

I really liked this film though, and will see it again when it comes to Imax.

If you HAVE to use spoilers then please use the ler] tag. i.e. ler]Darth Vader is Lukes father!

This will look like Darth Vader is Lukes father



NO MORE OF THIS *** SPOILER ALERT**** WRITINGS, THE EXAMPLE ABOVE IS HOW IT IS DONE MAKE USE OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Overall i think it was an excelent movie.....
Interesting how Morpheus took on even more of a preacher role reguarding the prophecy and "the one"

I think they over did (a bit) the effect used in the previous movie....where they had a dramatic slow motion moment in the middle of fight scenes...

fight fight fight fight fight fight (5 second slo-mo)
fight fight fight fight fight fight (10 second slo-mo)
fight fight fight fight fight fight (5 second slo-mo)
etc...



as far as the dude at the end... the survivor... I believe he was basicly one of the agent smith's that(like in Neo's dream) was created... by one of them grabing cloned into a person that had been hacked into the matrix... and transfered into his biological body(the sabature)

One thing i thought interesting.. at the end... was when he stopped the sentinels using the same powers he had in the matrix, indicating that the whole world?? that they live in?? with zion...... is still just another level of the matrix??


oh yeah.... What exactly were the choices did the Architect provide to Neo? And why is there even a choice when one door leads to the destruction of every man AND machine? Why would the Architect even provide that when designing the Matrix?

Mabe everyone has been in The Matrix from the beginning. The repetitive scenario of The One reaching the Architect and making the choice could just be one big program after program, so that the Machines can perfect their strategy of getting to the real Zion (because all of their real attempts to do so have failed).



don't know... thoughts???

ODIN WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE POST PRIOR TO YOURS YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND????????????

Hey sorry Finti I have'nt posted in a while.

Hmm it's interesting that people are leaning that way. I dont though.

Odin,

I think the whole thing with neo and the sentinels is real, instead of another matrix. Because Neo is'nt the only one. This includes agent smith aswell, For agent smith to cross over the way he did, and then be human, as you can see he cut himself indisbelief, and as a test to try and assassinate neo that's a major jump. If he can be human in real life, then Neo can be machine in real life. It's like they switched roles. Machine became man, Man became Machine. Also think about it, they said they found only one survivor from the destroyed ship, but this is not because agents smith's new human body is powerful in the real world, it's because HE sabotaged the ship himslef. However HE is fragile as ever, where Neo is powerfull for real. He really is the one. When Neo first moved like an agent in part 1, did he pass out? No. But now in the real world he has powers, and it took a toll on him. I think he passed out this time, because it's real, and his body has never experienced this. That's the difference between the virtual reality of the Matrix, and the Reality of life.

I think some of what the Architect say's is total rubbish, and may be a bluff to make Neo think one way. Also this movie tried to put the oracle in a bad light subtly, but this is only temporary I think. I get this because when Neo mentioned the oracle as the mother of the matrix, the architect tried to downplay her significance...sounds to me like he fears her, and if he fears her, then I feel she's telling the truth and the true hope lies within her, the architect is just twisting things .

thanx razorrex10

well, i'm gonna put ALL of this in the spoiler tags even though i'm sure not all of it is. i don't wanna get yelled at and have super imposed editing happening on my posts.


i saw the movie for a second time today. i got a lot more information this time that i didn't notice or pay attention to the first. what i thought was going on i do not believe anymore. the matrix within a matrix within a matrix....i don't think that's the case now.

first: odin, the guys in the chateau are not the "the one" versions 1.0 - 5.0. they are werewolfs and or vampires. Persephone killed one of them with a silver bullet. what else dies with a silver bullet? plus the movie they were watching, it was some kind of cheap horror flick, with a vampire/werewolf character on it.

as for the french dude, he is just a program as the oracle said. his wife however, i believe is completely different. i'll get to that in a sec.

Zion the city, i now believe, is the place where all the anomalaic people go. when neo was talking to the architect of the matrix, he said that the first 2 matricies were failures because no one accepted the programming. everyone wanted to have "free will" and have choice. that's when he mentions "the mother" of the matrix, who at the conscious level gave humans the illusion of choice, but at the subconscious level, knew that they had none. this new type of programming worked for 99.9% (number might not be right) of all people.

this is where the anomalies come in. the anomalies are aware that something is wrong with the world, this "wrongness" is their knowledge that there is no choice, it has all been predestined. they are aware that "choice" is an illusion, and once that becomes apparent, their mind becomes free in a sense. or at least, that's when their mind is ready to be freed. Further proof of this is when Neo himself is freed. He said that he doesn't like the idea that he's not in control of his own life; he has a hard time adjusting to the truth that his entire life was within a computer program. Therefore, Zion is the place where the"trouble makers" of the matrix are dumped to keep the matrix running smoothly

Once the major anomaly, "the one" comes along, however, he is there to free all of the human minds and bring them into the real world, where there is such a thing as choice and freedom.

from The Matrix: "I'm going to hang up this phone, and then i'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and control, without borders or boundries, a world where anything is possible. Where we go from there, is a choice i leave to you."

Major use of irony there, though he doesn't even realize it. He says this before he learns of "choice" But, the Wachowsky brothers did this with full realization. They do everything with full realization.

Now that the major anomaly has been discovered as being Neo, he as a "choice" to make. Because The Architect does not want all minds to become free, he needs to get rid of the anomaly (Neo) or the machines die from lack of energy.

the choice is: get rid of this anomaly by destroying Zion and putting Neo, 7 men and 16 women into Zion, or the entire human race will become extinct, but Neo will save Trinity. Neo, blinded my emotion is lead to save trinity.

BTW, the 7 men and 16 women part fits in with the first movie when Morpheus said something like: when the matrix was created there was a man who would change the matrix as he self it. He freed the first of us...etc. That man was the previous "chosen one"

Next, i believe that Persephone will play a much bigger part in revolutions.
Why didn't the french guy do anything when Persephone betrayed him? All he said was: woman, you'll be the death of me.
He didn't do anything because he couldn't. She had control over him. The greek myth of persephone itself is that she became goddess of the underworld. (underworld: what better place for vampires and werewolfs?) more hinting that she is the one of power.

When the architect mentioned the "mother" of the matrix, he scoffed at neo asking if she was the oracle. Mother, as well as the character of hope is always portrayed by a woman. I believe that Persephone is both "the mother" of the matrix and "Hope" herself. She helped Morpheus, Neo and Trinity to get to the "source" by allowing them to get the keymaker. Aside for Morpheus, Neo and Trinity are doubtful as they are in the elevator, that they will get the keymaker. Persephone gives them hope.

The Architect said as neo was walking towards the door: "Hope is mankind's greatest strength, it is also it's greatest weakness", forshadowing that Persephone with be of great help to Neo and the others in the next installment but may become a liablity. Or perhaps, with her, they will win - making her mankinds greatest strength, but without her, it is folly - making her their greatest weakness.


As for Smith, this is just plain weird. I believe that Smith has become an "alter ego" to Neo if you will. When he was destroyed by Neo in the first movie, part of Smith became implantd onto Neo, and part of Neo onto Smith. This is how Smith became "free" within the matrix. He became an anomaly, just as Neo had. Just as Smith wasn't killed in the counter-strike, Neo was able to stop the sentinals. There isn't much more to say on this subject, but it is out of all of them, the most important. I've seen the matrix revolutions teaser at the end of reloaded, and a huge fight between the two seems to be a major event of signifigance of the movie. I'm sure we'll learn more of this once revolutions comes out.




Goddamn, i've said a lot. sorry guys just a lot of things that needed to be said. To sum up:



"the one" = bad for machines, but too powerful to stop. threaten him with destruction of all mankind plus destruction of zion, or take 23 of his homies and start new zion. zion dead either way.

i'm sure you're asking, why would the architect be willing to kill all machines, when he would die himself. answer: that's a dupe. he said that all of "the one"s had a certain amount of attachment to humanity, and none wanted to be held responsible for it's extinction.

persephone = hope and mother of matrix

smith = i don't know, but very damn important

good lads, now you all aint spoiling it for those tempted to look in at the thread, if they highlight it well then no one is to blame but themselves

Smith finds Neo with the Oracle because he new he would be there. In the begining you see an envelope being give to a character to take back to zion. That envelope is the message from the Oracle to Neo on where to meet her. Smith loads a copy of himself into the guy and gets the message. What you don't see (if i am correct) is that Niobi and Ghost retrieve this message from the post office while the agents are searching for it (that is in the video game and parrallels the movie, the game is awesome).

My take on Smith was that when Neo jumped into him he changed Smiths programing and freed him of the control of the creator program. Once he is free "so to speek", he gets really curious and want's to take over the Matrix and the Machines for himself. I thought this was a circle leading back to this..... In the first movie Smith talks to Morpheus about the evil of man and how we are a virus that divides and conqours so to speak. But in reality this is the same thing that the Machines or the Programs are doing to themselves. Once they are free they want power and to control, but others want to co-exist, an still others just want their piece of the pie. So in the end they are just like us. I thougt this movie was really deep and liked it alot, and I am also sure that 90% of the people who saw it are just confused and can't figure it out.

As far as the end, they set it up for a thriller ending in the next one, as they leave a lot to the imagination. My take was this... The matrix is created and they make it a paradise, but some humans won't accept the programming and this causes it to crash as those minds reak havoc in the programing. The creator decides that the problem is that humans have a natural predication towards chaos and there for need to be given a world with more choices. This world would allow us to be free to choose and to create of destroy as we please. However, because we are not given a choice to be in this world or not, some minds will question this reality still and fight the program. So the Creator creates the anomoly called the One and allows this person to take some humans and create Zion. The purpose of this is that these humans will be allowed to find and contact the minds that are not accepting the programing and remove them from the Matrix, there by helping it to survive. One of the themes in the movie is that we need machines to survive and they need us. The anomoly/The One has a cycle and will always return to the master program at which time Zion is destroyed and the cycle starts again. My take on Neo was that the program puts a certain amount of code in his head to control this process, so he is human, but has an understanding of the Matrix that allows him to interact with it and return to the creator when it is time.

I also took it that Trinity was put there as control for Neo that would not allow him to kill the creator or Master program. His human emotion for love will alwalys leed him to rescue her and try and save Zion and it's people. Also the last choice the creator shows Neo is that by destroying the Matrix he will kill the billions of people living in it. But they do leave it confusing, or at least make you question it. If the cycle keeps happening over and over again, it would appear that it is all the matrix. That Zion and what appears to be the real world is a program to give the illusion that you are making a choice to stay in the Matrix or fight for human kind, there for keeping the minds that won't accept there reality from breaking the master program. But, you can tell from the creators response to Neo that the Anomoly/The One is getting smarter which would imply that either the program is getting smarter or his human side has seen it enough to start figuring it out. Also when he stops the Centinals, you think, wait how can he do that it must be the Matrix. But the last thing you see is that he is im a coma, implying that it took to much energy to stop the centinals, and his body could not take it so he must be human. I LOVE IT HEHEHE...

Confused!!! I am but I think I understand enough and that the next movie will make it all clear. I love the fact that I am thinking way to much about this movie and the plot. This movies was amazing and really deep and I love it.

This is just ideas in my head and I look forward to hearing other responses. Is anyone on the same page as me or thinking along the same lines? Or does anyone have other take or changes to this rational.



OK SINCE IT IS SO BLOODY HARD TO COMPREHEND USE SPOILER TAGS

I thought your impressions are awesome and right on. I totally over looked Persephone as the mother, but did get that the Oracle was not.

One thing that puzzeled me was that if the Oracle has always been there and knows that the cycle keeps repeating itself, and that Neo has already made his choices. Then why not just say "HEY SNAP OUT OF IT" this is what happened 6 times before, and you need to make a different choice. Maybe that would be to easy hehehe.

If 90% of the people don't understand the Movie, and 10% do, and assuming that we are that 10%, does that Make us an Anomoly and parrallel us to the movie? Make you think!

Well the oricle appears to me to be a control program to lead "the one" to the architect therfore she wouldnt want, or should i say programed, to tell neo to break the cycle. but in saying that it almost seemed to me like there was some animosity between the architect and the oricle. perhaps he was upset he needed her to get the matrix to work. maybe she was there to guide all of "the ones" to the architect but now she sees that neo is the true one. who knows there is so many ways to go with this show we will all just have to waite for 6 months to find out for sure.

also, i liked the idea of the french dude and his hench men being the other "the ones". props to whoever thought of that one.

Yo Baulderg2! man, we're on the same level man, i completely over looked that smith had turned into the virus metaphor he mentioned in the first movie! This is more proof that smith has become more human. and neo stopping the sentinal is more proof that that neo is becoming more like a machine. The next movie is gonna be freakin awesome!

Hah, that's another good parallel, we've already freed our minds, now it's up to us to free the 90% of the others who don't get the movie.

the other people with the french dude being "the one" before neo, while a good idea, is wrong. every anomaly chose to to take 23 people and start a new zion, making it impossible for those people to be the older versions of "the one" Why would they be in the matrix if they were "the one"? Morpheus said himself that when the matrix was created, there was a man born inside who could change it as he self it. he saved the first of us....etc.

that idea doesn't work with that line from the first movie.

well another problem with that idea is that they would have to be really old, thousands of years old. the only way they could twist it to make it work is that all "the ones" are actually computer programs. imagine that if Neo turns out to be a program (which would only be possible if zion was in the matrix). trippy!

Yeah weird he chose Trinty over 249,000 people but hey he's the "one" though.

You know I thought the Arcutact was going to be Bill Gates are someting.

Hmmm you pride yourselves in understanding the movie but you all dont understand the simple message of SPOILER TAGS.

Hey I resemble that remark
And I never said I understand it, but I do like trying to.

I wouldn't say that 90% are confused. I would say that 90% don't try to deeply understand it & don't feel confused, because they understand the basic prinsipals of the movie.

Yeah it's hard to understand but I understood it.

well the first Matrix wasnt hard to understand so why should this one be?

i dont think the movie is too difficult to understand, but i do think that it would be impossible to come up with what happens next as your watching the movie, thats why i think the movie is so clever, you can follow it easy enough, but you need to pay attention or you will be lost.

Yeah can't wait to see what happens.

"Hmmm you pride yourselves in understanding the movie but you all dont understand the simple message of SPOILER TAGS."

Actually this topic is Labled, "FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN MATRIX 2".

That implies that if you have not seen it then read at your own risk.


P.S, I do not pride myself on understanding the movie, it is just a movie. But I do love that the movie makes you think and want to understand it.

Well I've seen it.Seeing it again Friday.

Thanks for posting the final conversation.

Know that I have heard it again I understand it way better. The previous "The One's" all choose the right door and choose to rebuild zion, as there programs were designed to lead them to do. But Neo has now chossen the left door and has now changed the pattern. The architect said that Trinity would not live, but Neo did save her. I cannot wait to see the next one.............

why did this movie (trilogy..or whatever) get the reputation of being 'harder' to understand? It just has a better story line than most new movies, and a more entangled plot. it's really not that tough to get.
I doubt my mom understands it, though..but that doesn't mean she can't, because i KNOW she thinks it's not worth two hours of her life to work on understanding. Some people just have different conceptions about films..

now the movies...it's great...but the balance of the forces is totally screwed from the first. Agents look like pussies by now..and there are too many non-agent characters that manage to get neo into a headacke.
Also, these new elements:...find the keymaster...destroy the power plant....these seem a little 'dungeons and dragons' if you know what i'm sayin

wonder if a second time would be better.

chico, thanks for the script. that's awesome!

this movie is a bit harder to understand because it's not as cut and dry as the first one. the first movie was the general overview of what has happend and what will happen. This is going into the details. The details are always the hardest to decipher and comprehend

like that thing with the girl's cake..in the restaurant...*grins*...heheh. You know..i really thought he was gonna kill her with it, at first...

Architect: Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an unconscious level. While this answered function it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster.

The first part talks about the people not accepting the program like Morpheus and Trinity. But what is the second part talking about?

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

What do these these sentences mean. It's too complicated wording for me to understand. What was the source? I thought it was the room the architect and Neo were in. Why would everyone connected to the Matrix be killed?


Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love.

He says by design. Does this mean that Neo is a program. The architect designed him? Is Neo the anomally or is everyone that is unplugged an anomally? Just making sure, but the agents are programs right, and does the architect control them? Are the twins programs, because I don't see how they can become ghost-like?

I think I just messed up my whole reply because I experimented with it. I'm not used to using this. I thought I was bolding sentences and and making it spoiler-proof, but I guess I messed it up.

hey, can we get a mod in here to fix the posts so we don't have to scroll vertically for hours?

You mean scrolling horizontally for hours???

Hey there, want to apologize 4 any potential etiquette mistakes, havn't posted 2 this brd b4.
So many cool postings... I am avidly reading the NEO: program vs. human debate. on the program side now....Anyone want to discuss further implication of the Merovingian and his wife?? My friends and I have a debate about what happened to Naiobi at the end of the movie. anyone clear of her fate? dead, alive, unknown? thx dudes, meow

haha! yep. that's what i meant. horizonatally, not vertically. my bad. stupid me!

Hi,

after following this thread with many good explanations I have two things that do not make sense to me, maybe one of you can help me there...

One: why do the machines not know the exact location of Zion if the architect is saying, this will be the sixth time they will have destroyed it?

Two: Although in the middle of their talk, the architect says that Zion will be destroyed for the sixth time, he also states later, that "the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion".

Three: At the end of their talk, the architect points out to Neo that they already know Neo's choice and indicates it will be the one destroying everyone bound to the matrix. Since this would be a severe problem for the machines, why is he not at all worried and even appears to be very calm, as if he expected that all along?

Regards, J.

JellyLorum:
In my opinion, the answers to your questions3 r as follws:
1. Why do you think the Machines don't know where Zion is from the beginning? Neo wouldn't have gone on the journey to the source, handing himself to the Architect to potentially reset the programme, as the anomaly's purpose seems to be (albeit merely one purpose) unless Zion was threatened severely. I think the whole concept of Zion is to foster a environment where the One - the anomaly that worries the Architect- is found is constantly searched for, and then sent on a mission to save Zion, the people of Zion being mere pawns.
2. I think you have to take the "source and salvation" comment in context with the previous statement "The function of the One ..reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, ...rebuild Zion. Failure to comply ...will result in a cataclysmic system crash " (THX for giving us the script!). If Neo goes 2 Source, he resets the program, and supposedly gets 2 save some humans from Zion to begin again...if he doesn't reset, the Matrix and machines will start 2b destroyed...w/o the machines keeping the humans alive, the pods will die, and the machines, inexorably linked will cease to function.
3. I agree that there is lots of ambiguity here. Perhaps that is why so much effort was put out to stop Neo, b/c his version would be the one that made the cataclysmic choice. But the Architects words to try to persuade Neo from making the other choice, stating Trinity will die anyway, etc.

Question 4u, and anyone else, any1 catch the forshadowing of the Architect scene from the scene w/ the Councellor? His speech re: the interwining of man and machine?

I was going through the MAtrix 1, and Noticed that they referenced the Architect. He's actually watching Neo, when Neo is being held/arrested by the Agents in that white room.

Pretty Cool.

I want to see more of niobie fighting smiths or the up graded agents

http://blogs.salon.com/0001797/2003/05/19.html#a532

I anyone is interested I thought this post was very interesting and made some sense of the questions that Reloaded brought up. Its is a spoiler so beware.

Also, Flip I saw that too. Funny how watching Reloaded made me want to go home and watch Matrix again.

Sent,

your first question, people knew that there wasn't a choice on the unconcious level, but on the conscious lever they believed that they did have one. this is what is contraditory. Now like he said, 99% of people accepted that programming, but as for the 1% who didn't, if they were left unchecked, they would wreak havoc on the system. this is where Zion comes in. Zion is pretty much the place they dump this 1% of people so that the entire matrix won't collapse and die.

2nd question: We know that despite his best efforts, he could not destroy the anomaly (the one) but he could control him. the entire matrix is about control. the quote at the end of the first movie when neo is talking into the payphone. he says he will show these people a world without borders and boundries where anything is possible. The agents are another level of this control. Anyways, the architect knows that eventually, there will be another major anamolaic person, carrying a "code" that will make him "the one." Since he can predict that, he can in ways control what will happen to him. His control over neo has brought neo to him. the oracle is yet another system of control because of that. As for the extinction of the human race, i believe that it is a dupe. Obviously the architect wouldn't want to have all the humans die, the machines would as well. He is trying to persuade Neo to take a few people out of the matrix and start a new Zion like the previous "neos" had. afterall, would you want to be held responsible for the extinction of the entire human race? (assuming you believed him)

as for the 3rd: since the matrix is a system of control, if you read the the architects reply to neo's first question, does it not seem like he is talking about neo as if he is a program? A program which he still controls. that control is what brought neo to him.


As for Niobe, she's still alive. only one of the hovercrafts were destroyed when at the end when they needed to take out 27 blocks of electricity to get neo through the door. i'm sure she'll play a much bigger role in revolutions.

as for Merovingian and his wife, persephone, i believe that persephone is the mother of the matrix. think about it, we've only been introduced to 2 female characters that reside within the matrix. persephone, and the oracle. the architect scoffs when neo mentions the oracle, indicating that it isn't her. also, another clue is when Merovingian finds out that Persephone betrays him. all he says is: "Women, you'll be the death of me." and she walks away without a care.

Another thing i noticed. Persephone is also Hope. Hope is always portrayed by a female. Ok. the entire movie is about Neo fighting to make a choice for himself. When they arrive in Zion, Trinity says: "They need you." Neo says: "I need you." This is VERY important in the end. This is what leads Neo to make his decision when he is at the source. He NEEDS Trinity. I think that he will need Trinity even more in Revoltions. Persephone, now, asks for a kiss from Neo. Trinity gets quite jealous and angry. What did the Architect say about hope?

"Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness."

What is Persephone? She, at that moment, was their greatest strength by providing The Keymaker to the trio, while simultaneously being the greatest weakness by in a sense splitting Neo and Trinity up by asking for that kiss.


Jelly,

I'm guessing that they do, but as Counselor Hammon ( I'm pretty sure that's the old councelor) the machines are dependant on man, and man on machine. Zion is the place where they dump the 1% who don't accept the programming. The purpose they serve is to root out the anomaly, the one, who eventually goes to the Architect. All of the previous anomalies have chosen to start a new Zion with 23 people. Or perhaps they choose a different location for Zion everytime. Either way, both are dependant upon one another.

chico, thanks again for the script and the awesome link! i was surprised to find the majority of my own ideas on that link

Same here Tevesh that matrix within a matrix idea bothered me from the moment I heard it

i have to admit, it was my first impression, and i did believe it for a bit. but after watching the movie again for the 2nd time, i "saw the light" so to say.

also..another question (though i might have just missed this)
where did the machines get the coordinates of Zion?

Good question, but In the movie it seemed they always knew where it was since they "refresh" it every so often. Maybe the codes were just a way to make the one find his way to the source

O.K. that was a hella weak attempt to try to explain that.

did you know that you can see the camera crew reflection in the sunglases they use????

don't care.
then why were the agents so desperate to get the coordinates in the first movie, chico?

well that was part of Neo having to realize he was the one. In his attempt to save morpheus and his choices (already seen) the wheels are set in motion for the "prophecy". thus leading him ultimately to the source

huh??.....so...the agents helped him realise he's the one?

good point, probably the architect knows where it is at, but he doesnt let the rest of the programs know because that is part of the equation for the matrix. all the other programs dont know the true purpose of zion and "the one" otherwise they would probably step aside to let Neo achieve getting to the architect.

Yes, in a way, all programs from the matrix take part in helping to find the one. Because The One is important to the matrix as a whole for without The One the matrix would not be able to Reboot causing the crash of the whole system, or so I understand.

right...highly exagerated. The agents can just go and kick neo in the head to proove their good intentions in helping him find out he's the one...no need to force it out of morpheus....
This is yet to be elucidated

gotcha..... thanks... now i know... its not in the help for the vb code

What is the significance of Neo choosing to save humanity over Trinity (the kiss) then later choosing to save Trinity over saving humanity (the doors)? Wow this movie is deep.

well i guess he was thinking that its just a kiss, plus he was under the impression that he could save humanity from slavery as apposed to the choice at the end he realised that he cant save man from slavery with either door so he decided to save trinity. thats my guess but i dont know thats a tuffy.

FLIPMODE
yes those are some verry good points....
i know... it either implies that he has carried his powers into the real world..... or.... yet another level of the matrix.... i dunno....

... need coffee

(by the way.. sorry i know it diddnt make much sense...... i was on my way out as i typed it up... then saw the thread..."for those who have seen matrix".... well... i just cut and pasted my comment from one thread into this one.... only reading the contents of this thread later.... to feel like a dork:-p)

Hey people whats up i really thought this forum was interesting so i though i put in what i know about the matrix reloaded or what i noticed ok first things first

I understand the whole revolution thing but I didnt think that Neo stopped the sentinals because he was still in the Matrix. i do believe that is the real world. my impression was that this revolution around something is different. the machine world and the human world are merging. remember how the counsel member talked how we need them and we need us? well now smith is able to leave the matrix.
neo is able to use the power of control he has in the matrix, in terms of electricity and such to control machine in the outside world (though if he is able to fly in the real world too then things are really messed up). what i found most interesting was: the reason you can die in the matrix is because you are alive and aware of a bullet going through you and the brain mimics what happens when youd die. when neo restarted her heart he was in the matrix, he brain would not be aware of the someone starting the heart and should not be able to mimic whatd that be like. though neo can now control both worlds from either side i guess its plausible he could revive her plus like agent smith said that neo and him have alittle bit of each other in them since on the first movie smith killed neo and neo killed smith so they are united in that way and since smith can control machines neo used that source that smith left in him and used it 2 kill the machines on the real world and thats why they were both the last survivors

another thing that i always wondered is that u know on the first movie when neo is held by the 3 agents in a room and u see the shot thru a monitor then it goes into the room i always wondered who was the one watching and now i do

I Agree With The Persephone Thing i also think that shes going to play a big role on the next movie and i also think that shes going to be the key to salvation

the scary movie thats playing while persephone kills one of those dudes hints that those programs are like the werewolves and vampires and like she said they are helpfull cause they are hard to kill


thats all i cant think about at the momment if i have more ill hit u guys up lates

Reveiller

Yeah I did notice the vampire movie playing in the background and had just mentioned it today to a friend.

oh ok the thing that sucked is that i didnt get to see the trailer for the next movie since my friends rushed out of the theater and plus i didnt know i gotta go see that movie again Lol

good to have a fellow believer on my side, Reveiller

hey no problemo man oh i noticed something else on the matrix and i just thought about that

ok you guys know the floor that neo and morpheous and trinity get off in to see the french dude, the floor number is 101 and its funny because the apartment that neo used to live in, in the matrix was also 101 this particular number in binary coding will be 0000101 which equals to 5 and this might mean that 5 people before have failed on freeing the people of zion and that neo is the 6th one to try just like the 6th version of the matrix

let me know what u guys think

Did anyone notice the monitor in the real world showing a scan of Trinity's body when she died and Neo is massaging her heart inside the Matrix? You can see the bones of his hand sticking inside her body.

Also, think about this: all these events happened five times before and ended in the same way. Now, everything is going differently and that is proven by the death of the Keymaker. He's a program that has been around since the beginning of the Matrix, having witnessed all five previous runs. If Neo wasn't different, he wouldn't have changed Agent Smith and the Smiths wouldn't have shot the Keymaker. The death of the Keymaker before Neo meets the Architect, is a sign that he won't do what he's supposed to do in the big scheme of things.

well think about this, in the first film you bring up the point about when he is in the interogation room with smith that the architect is watching through the monitors, well they let neo go because according to morpheus they underestimated his importance. i think that the architect new his importance and that was the only reason he was released. it wasnt an error on there part. also perhaps smith wasnt happy with letting neo go since i think he is oblivious to the fact that neo is the one. so he toyed with his prisoner and tortured him a little (closed his mouth). that brings us another question, do you all think smith is aware of the whole "the one" and the previous zions. i dont think so because in the first one he says that if he can get the location of zion he can leave the matrix. what do you guys think?

he was aware of the first matrix, so i don't see why not? he is also aware of all the backdoors as well. I think Smith knows a lot more that he seems to know.

i dunno...i've gone cross-eyed ....again....
God...fans drilling through it like this already.
Well.i probably just have a head acke.

I TOTALLY enjoyed MATRIX RELOADED. Can't wait to see REVOLUTION. I was cursing at the end of the movie because here I am flying along with the action and the story and just at the end when they revealed the traitor's face BOOM & PAH!!! "to be continued"... I yelled out loud Sh@#%#%t!!!! LMAO!!! Oops!

Anyway, I was also impressed with how racially diversed the movie was. Christ it was good.

Ya he was aware of the first matrix, but why isnt he aware of the location of zion, they have been through this 5 times before?

Thats True I Guess It All Can Relate To Platos Forms And One Of Them Is Called A Priori Which Means Before Knowledge And What This Forms Says Is That Before We Were Born We Knew Everything About Anything But On The Process Of Being Born We Went Thru A Trauma Which Made Us Forget Everything And To Gain That Knowledge Back We Just Need To Remember

This Goes To Smith Because If He Has Been On The Other Matrixes Before On The Process Of Reloading Them Again And Making New Versions He Forgot Where Everything Was And What He Was Able 2 Do

Let Me Know What U Guys Think

very good analogy. my faith beleives that when you come to earth you go through a veil that prevents you from remembering anything from before birth which is kind of what your saying, but then how would Smith know about the previous program the "paradise" that was the first matrix.

Because Since He Was Connected To The Matrix He Knew All The Information There Was To Go Arround So He Remembered How The First Perfect Matrix Was And Knows Everything Else

Smith definitely knows, why else would it cut to him after the fight with the new agents, why would he say everything is going according to plan.
to show difference from the previous 5 before him the clone enters the scene and he says "well not exactly" which indiactes that he is knows. and why else is he waiting for him in the hallway of back doors.

good point, but it still dont explain him not nowing the location of zion. maybe he does but he knows that he has to play the game and go through the motions. ?!?

Smith might also know about the first Matrix because he is controlled by the creator and the creator might have told him, or put the idea in his head. Smith seems to not care at all about Zion after he is freed, only about getting control and finding out why he exsists.

if the plot of enter the matrix runs parallel with reloaded, could Neo stopping the sentinals have been the Logos' EMP from the end of the game? And how would this tie in with Neo's and Bane's(the guy Smith took over) comas? ideas?

somebody look this up from the first movie, did smith want the location of Zion, or access codes to the mainframe? I remember him wanting the access codes.

I believe that he was looking for the access code to zions mainframe.

smith was looking for access codes to zion's mainframe in the first one. then neo "killed" him. neo didn't destroy his data and he continued to live. now he is independent and could go anywhere except for the real world.

good point, he was after the codes not the location

i agree he did want the codes he didnt seem that interested in zion but he only wanted to destroy zion with the access codes i need to see the second one again 2 find out more stuff

In reloaded is neo having a dream when we see agent smith copy himself for the first time? then agent smith goes down the phone!

i was sure that it was a dream after he slept with trinity and then he woke up and went for a walk with the councellor!

is this what happened? because i have been told it was not a dream!

no that wasnt a dream. that is how Smith took over that guy and sabotaged the counter attack against the machines.

Phew! Finally seen this film!

I am glad SOMEONE pointed out that they were after the access codes from Morpheus, NOT the location of Zion. What makes people think they did not know where Zion was? They even make reference in the film about having beaten off previous attacks. The point of the threat is not that they have found it, but that they are bypassing its defence systems by drilling.

So, if the story about destroying the previous Zions is true, the sentinels presumably wait for the right time to start this drilling tactic which is the most efficient way to destroy it.

Some people seem to think that Trinity is a way to ensure Neo does what the machines want and save the humans. I am unsure why they think this. It is clearly said that by returning to the Matrix to save Trinity he would doom Zion and the entire human race.

Again the Architect clearly says that there are 'levels of survival we are willing to accept' when Neo says this would mean the end of the machines as well. Clearly, therefore, they CAN live without humans if they have to, they just don't want it that way.

But clearly the Architect cannot make Neo choose what he wants, except in the manipulative free will vs. fate way esposed by the whole film. As the Architect points out, the previous Ones had a general attachment to the human race which led them to enter the Source and do as planned. But Neo has a SPECIFIC attachment to ONE human and this overrides his general sense of purpose and leads to a decision which- if the Architect is being truthful- creates a situation that has never happened before, in that the disruptive elements will destroy the sixth Matrix and the machines destroy Zion (though there is a small question mark as to why they would continue to destroy Zion if their main plan has failed- best to leave SOME humans alive, I would have thought).

And Dexx seems to think the Agents have become pussies, HUH? Seemed damn hard to me! Aside from Neo all anyone else can ever do is survive them, not best them.

As for Agent Smith 'escaping' the Matrix... well, I do not know for sure but I think there may be less to this than people think.

This seems incredible because there should not be any way something in the Matrix can affect the real world. But it is very easy to overlook the obvious existing contradictions to that presumed rule- death and injury. "Your mind makes it real," says Morpheus in the original. You get punched, you bruise, Matrix AND real world. Real blood vessels rupture and you bleed. In any obvious sense that is impossible. But by the same principle, if dying in the Matrix makes you die in real life, then why would not being overwritten by Smith in the Matrix overwrite your brain patterns in real life? After all, it is your MIND that is in the Matrix so if any part of you could be affected for real it would be that. Smith just had to time it right.

This would remove the need for Matrices within Matrices explaining it.

I just watched it again off a download i got off Kazaa (if anyone wants the info on the exact file PM me) and I noticed something I am totally against the oracle being the mother of the matrix in the line where neo makes a guess as to the oracle the tone from the architect was clearly dismissive when he said: "Please, as I was saying...." just thought I would share that.

I also wanted to comment on the ear piece that was given to neo toward the beginning of the movie. I think this "gift" was not only symbolic to the freedom of Smith but also a link to the machines. Isn't it possible that this could be why Neo "short circuited" the sentinels? Maybe he found a way to use the code from smith to link up with machines which not only could explain that mystery, but also explain Bane's survival as well. I only say this because I stand on the side of fans that don't believe the matrix within a matrix theory that has been floating around. What do you guys think?

i don't fully think the agents as pussies...but as i said..there are many characters who can defeat them by now. That saraph guy could probably handle more than one very well. But ofcourse..he protects what matters most. And the twins...but these are all programs ofcourse...
i don't know about the other meravingian's men...are they programs also?
AND..morpheus handled that agent ontop of the truck pretty well comparing his battle with smith in the first..
But the biggest one of them all was that fight with neo...against 300 (or how many) agents. If you study the agent's moves (some of them) barely raise their hands at him. Even when he throws them into eachother....there's that sound only found at..well...bowling!

THANK YOU! more people are starting to believe that The Oracle isn't the Mother. We know that Smith knew where Zion was, but what he didn't know is the access codes. He probably wanted to send in some sort of virus to disable the machines that enable all the humans to live. Would it not be easier than drilling a few thousand miles through earth with a quarter million sentinals?

We didn't know about all those people in the first movie because that was the birth of a hero, not the life. Also, no one else knew about them because the time had not come yet. Once Neo comes along, they discover all these people and objects through him.

I definetely don't agree with the matrix within a matrix theory. We know the guy with the goatee, the one smith took over, was also unconscious after being the only survivor of the machine attack. Why is that? Why is he unconscious like Neo? Chances are, he probably stopped the machines doing the same thing Neo had. It all comes down to the fact that there's a strong connection between Neo and Smith.

righto Tevesh, also, that bowling sound was so chessy..hehe

Rather more straightforwardly, access codes to Zion's mainframe would simply allow the machines to disable Zion's security.

Seraph MAY be able to take an agent, Dexx, but then he is a one-off spectacular whose whole concept is 'wow, he can draw with Neo!' The twins were very FLASHY but they were nowhere near as lethal as an agent- Morpheus took on both at once, that would bring death in seconds against an agent. And yes, he did well on the fight on the truck. This is because he was a HERO. But just like Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul, he lost the FIGHT. He won the situation with heroics.

Almost certainly the Merovingian's men are other programmes as well else they could not have fought Neo for toffee.

finally saw it (had to wait a week due friends seeing it and one won't)

flashy fx's, some were REALLY crappy (those were also in the trailer)
lots of action (perhaps too much?)
and imho, the entire idea of the matrix has been destroyed by Neo seeing the "creator" and people or whatever they were creating there own programs, a keymaker, etc.

all imho-oc

oh, and they made Neo too bloody powerful!
he didn't had to make any choices too

he did...the doors remember?

yes..drawing with neo is probably what impressed me about seraph.
yes..he is powerfull..but i liked it..especially his 'superman thing'

that thingie bothered me the most about his powers, I think

i dont think his powers where exagerated or anything i think the fit him well because him being the one paralles to him being god so he can do anything he want and anything he pleases those poweres suit him perfectly and i like the point that chico brought up about the ear piece that makes sense but also they are linked together some how so they both kinda have the same powers just like good and evil(god and the devil)

an immortal superman, how ... nice :-\

He's not immortal. All seemed to fit in quite well to me.

like chico mentioned before, he stops the sword with his hand and he bleeds. he's not infallible. he can still die. the only reason his powers are as strong as they are is because he will need them in the next movie.....probably when he fights smith.

i agree on that note they are both going to be vulnerable to anything that may happen and its going to be crazy cant wait 2 see that

sorry i have missed out on the thread for a little while. I think that the reason Morpheus did so much better versus an upgraded agent is because if you play basketball with micheal jordan everyday you will get better, if you get what i mean (morpheus and neo) also here is a new theory i have. the french dude and his henchmen are the previous "ones" (judging by what some of the characters had said). some one had said that early but i thought to myself then they would have to be thousands of years old. so i then thought being the one is actually a program the architect came up with and implanted into people, an idea that was also previous mentioned. but when those individuals died, the program in them continued, being uploaded by the matrix. now neo has been programed to be the one, but what the architect doesnt realise is that the one cant be artificially created hence accounting for the single variable in his equations, so not only does Neo have the program for the one, but he is the actual one and he proved that by choosing the wrong door. a little far fetched but i was on the road for awhile today and my mind started to wonder. what do you all think?

I can't really disagree with you, its true if you play the matrix long enough with Neo your bound to be a little better. Now the fact that merovingian is one of the previous "ones" does seem good I have to disagree after seeing it a few times. Merovingian is a program, in my opinion, and unlike Neo. Now I might be wrong, but it does seem too easy if he is. I might be proven wrong in Revolutions and if so then I will be very suprised.

normally if you stop a blade like that, you don't get a tiny cut like he did

i dont agree that the Merovingian guy was a former one or his henchman because it dosent make sense since neo was freed and they are some how still plugged into the matrix i just think that they are former programs who were replaced by something else or former agents because they have also said they are hard to kill and since their old they dont have the powers that mr.smith and the new upgrades have i dunno its just another theory

-----Reveiller-----

Errr, yeah, but so what? We KNOW Neo is powerful, very powerful, no-one denies that. But the blade did hurt him so he is not indestructible.

The only reason we have to think the Merovingian is a previous One is that Persephone said that he used to be like Neo. Nothing else suggests it, especially the way he talks of having survived Neo's 'Predecessors'. And DEFINITELY not the others who were with him- they were just more of his renegade programme henchmen. He would hardly have had to remind them that Neo was only human if they had all been Ones themselves and in any case, whilst they were all dangerous they were not bullet-stopping dangerous, were they?

i've been thinking. I can now say that i don't agree with the matrix within a matrix theory. If the real world would be matrix also. then all the zion enhabitans would be plugged also...then why destroy it? why waste 250 thousand batteries? ANd that repetitive cicle the architect mentioned wouldn't have a purpose anymore...

now...i saw yesterday a 'making of' and i had the biggest laugh of the week. The producer (what's his name...) was bragging keanu's work and he said that he's been watching jet li practicing since he was 4 years old and he can honestly say that keanu can take him ....*bursts into laughter again*....

I think he just tried to say Keanu worked hard on the fighting thing

i don't care. he SAID that he honestly belives he can take jet li.
Wich is HILARIOUS!!! Jet li is chinese champion in over 5 styles...(don't know exactly how many). And KEANU HAS A BELLY FOR CHRIST SAKES!!!

but no matter..i'll try not to think. Though it's funny as hell. The guy probably didn't mean that line

I have a belly too, what's the problem

Well your belly doesnt really come in handy when your getting ready to fight Jet LI. Except for more pretection for your stomach.

*remembers jet li bending prison walls in 'the one'*
naaah

oh wait..keanu bent a spoon also! tehee

bring him on, I prefer a straight fight between the two

sriously now..i can't belive it that a GROWN-UP could sau that ON TV.

well i meant that frenchdude and hench men were the residual programs left over from the previous ones. but your right the only thing that could even lead me to think that is when the chick said that french dude was like neo and frenchdude said something about henchmen being predecessors. it was just a thought. maybe frenchdude was the first one, and his risidual program had survived all the others. ya its far fetched but its fun coming up with crap like that.

i agree it is fun coming up with stuff like that and with new theories that can make people thing and agree on some stuff

How about Persephone as the mother of the Matrix, not the Oracle. The kiss with Neo was not tearing him and Trinity apart (weakness), but her way of checking that Neo really was in love i.e. she needed to know that he would chose Trinity's door before she led him to the keymaker. The kiss convinced her that he would make that choice that the other 'the one's before him had not.

Also, and mabe a bit too far-fetched, but how about Persephone as an older Trinity with Merovingian as a former 'the one'. She did say that Neo reminded her of how her boyfriend USED to be. Also after the kiss, she told Trinity that she envied her (i.e. Merovingian chose saving the world over her) but that it wouldn't last. Clue to the future???

I like a bit of both theories hehe even though they really can't live in harmony. Hurry up November!!!

Well, it's not proof that Persephone is the Mother, but it shows that she's gonna play a much more important part than initially believed. she's in the next movie. The trailer at end of the movie, i downloaded it and spliced out a frame from it. Also, I don't believe that the french guy was a former 'one' andPersephone being a former trinity. The Architect said that Neo was the only one to have attachment to humanity to a specific human being. Non of the former 'ones' had that. None of them had love. This is what Persephone meant that her husband used to be like Neo. She meant that he used to love her as Neo loves Trinity.

Wow I Agree Good Point Tevesh Now It Makes More Sense But I Always Agreed That She Was Going To Play An Even Bigger Role On The Next Matrix Movie

Man, she's hot!!!

So new a new member, who's seen it three times by now, and had her mind blown totally, not only by the special effects but also by the story and what it implies. Who thought the first movie was cool but the second even cooler, partly due to the loose ends that leave room for endless speculations.

So discussion time, and an apology if what I ponder upon things has already been discussed, but it took my a while to find an exit

Is the real world just another programmed matrix? The pros and cons of that as I see it: What is the spoon doing in the second movie? Is it just a piece of candy the Oracle hands Neo, or is it in effect a new red pill? How is Smith capable of infecting the real world, if he's only a program. And how can Neo suddenly stop the sentinels like they were bullets? And what does the Architect mean "this will be the sixth time we destroy it (Zion) and we have got increasingly better at it"? Sounds like a simulation.
On the other hand: The storytelling of the Warchoski brothers, while utilizing myths and legends, is in a way fairly simplistic. Not in a bad sense, but the story seems to be "pure". The heros quest, with helpers, guides and enemies. The Matrix Revolutions is supposed to be the conclusion, the tying up of loose ends, not the start of new ones. So storywise the revelation of a Matrix within the Matrix will be confusing.
Is it possible, though? Yes.
It depends on how we chose to interpret Reloaded. From the first movie it seems fairly clear, that the programs do not lie - so whatever the Oracle, Architect, Keymaker etc tells us is true. Who or what then is the Merovingian? He says to Neo, that he has survived all his predecessors and will survive him too. But the Oracle tells us, that the Merovingian is nothing but a program, an old one and a dangerous one, but still just a program. So he can hardly be the first One.
Then, who is Seraph and Persephone? Why does Seraph shine? He seems to be the obstacle to get to the Oracle, just as Persephone is the obstacle to get to the Keymaker.

When Neo suggests that the physic program is the Oracle, and the architet says "please" and almost rolls his eyes, it does not necessarily mean that Neo is wrong. Just that the Achitect thinks that term, "Oracle" is plain stupid. What Reloaded does is telling us that the entire prophecy, the religious aspect is just another form of control (what a twist, I loved it ).
Could Persephone be the "mother of the Matrix"? Yes, she could - if nothing else because the actress playing the Oracle died while shooting the movie. But then, why does she hang out with the Merovingian? He used to be like Neo, we learn. Which means Persephone and the Merovingian have been hanging out for a long time, indeed. So maybe they are a dark and corrupted version of what Neo and Trinity would become, if Neo had chosen the save-Zion door.
Then again... The Merovingian is a program. Perhaps he is the real "Architect"? I cannot say.

What does the Oracle mean, when she tells Neo that he has made a believer out of her? Well, of course, she means what she says But first and foremost Reloaded ends, with Neo being the first of the Ones NOT doing what he was supposed to, namely save Zion.

So if we assume that there are only two worlds, the marx and the real one, how do we explain Ne being able to affect the sentinels? (An assumption, mind you, I've seen ideas spanning from a multiple of matrices, to everything just being a thought in the mind of a deluded child). A friend offered the epanation that the two worlds are leaking into one another. Okay, there's the spoon ("it's not the soon that bend, it is you" the Oracles "red candy" (which btw. may mean something I haven't quite figured out yet), Smith being able to take over Bane and Neo taking his powers to the real. Everything fantastic has a rational explanation, so to speak. The powers of the avatars in the matrix, the One everything. So if we want to stick with two worlds, and not go metaphysical how do we explain the leaking of a virtual cyberspace into a real world?
Well, the human brain is just electrical impulses, so Smith infecting Bane is not completely impossible. And the dented spoon, well, it's just a spoon, eh? No, it's the stopping of the sentinels that is, pardon the expression "baking my noodle."
The visit to the Architect makes Neo "realize the truth" (insert the rest of the buddhist childs speech form movie 1), he goes beyond control and somehow manages to take "something" with him from the Matrix to the real world. But what? And how?
Comments? Ideas? Suggestions?

On a closing note: Some people have complained at the use of computer animations in the comba-scenes in the Matrix. Am I the only one who can see the irony of that?

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how about this, it wasnt neo that stoped the sentinals it was niobi with an emp. but since neo is becoming more and more program like, it fried him to. just a thought....

IF, as the computer game suggests, Neo's mind remained in the Source, then he can still affect the Source. As this is the machine's mainframe he could therefore affect the sentinels. This is an explanation which explains the sentinels without a need for a Matrix within a Matrix, which is too full of holes to be reasonable.

I've just seen the film once, but have some thoughts and a question. Please feel free to correct what might be my faulty memory.

First the thoughts: I can't buy the Neo-is-a-program notion. For if he is, then when Morpheus fired off the EMP at the end of the first film, wouldn't he have been comatose then too?
Plus, doesn't using an EMP disable all electronics in a blast radius? In the description of the fall of Zion, it's mentioned that an EMP is fired prematurely - disabling 5 ships. If that's the case, then the hovercraft that rescues the crew of the destroyed Nebuchanezzer couldn't have used an EMP to stop the sentinels (and stun a program-Neo) and then fly onto the scene moments later.

Now for the question. I seem to remember in the tale of the fall of Zion, that, once the machines had wiped out the city, they began to dig again. Why would they do that? Did I just hear it wrong?

I don't remember it being ssid that the machines dig again; anyone else? They would dig for the NEXT Zion, of course.

I don't really think Neo is a programme.

If I can remember, Lock had a plan to put all the ships(hovercrafts) at a location(maybe above Zion) to use their EMP charge simultaneously against the machines. Since one ship had triggered its EMP before the others, the plan failed... it was a slaughtering of the machines against the ships.... so then they(the machines) start digging again for Zion!! The only one who susrvived was Bane(the infected human version of agent Smith!!)

Ah! That makes sense! Thanks for clearing that up. So Zion is not actually destroyed by the end of Reloaded (gross misinterpretation on my part). Which also makes sense 'cause one would expect the characters to be a bit more upset than they were had it been.

I must notice that religion here is just partially form of control. I guess that it has some purpose and that that purpose is not masked (actually it helps freeing mankind).

The end of the movie doesn't mean that religion failed. Probably Morpheus cannot think good at the moment because he is stuck with emotions of failure, but as he said before as long as they are alive Oracle could have purpose...

Tas, at the end of The Matrix Reloaded they have only 24 hours left till the machines reach Zion!! I don't think the matrix is a program inside another matrix program otherwise it would be too much like the movie "The Thirteenth Floor (1999)".

well once the emp went off a ship can fire up there systems and go, it is just as the blast is going off that they need to be shut down. i think, otherwise in the first film the ebikanezer (excuse spelling) after using there emp would need major work to get it up and going again.