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Who wins who dies?

Tyranus takes this one, though Satele will make him work for it.

I'm on Sateles side. She has the force edge on dooku

Dooku ragdolls, possibly.

Dooku easily

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I'm on Sateles side. She has the force edge on dooku

Exactly, Satele's TK is extremely powerful. Lightsabers obviously goes to Dooku. It's a good fight regardless of who wins

I feel KMC has reached a point of TOR wankage where we need some more PT hype, to be honest. Not suggesting SWF hype though.
A legendary Sith Lord who regularly puts the Kenobi/Anakin duo on their asses can't beat the girl who lost to Malgus in 15 seconds? BS.

Loose to a girl that can palm lightsabers, cube and explode droids that are tougher than durrasteel with gestures, shatter blast doors, and create force shields to survive in space that the Hex droids arrsonal couldn't hope to penetrate?

Very conceivable

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Loose to a girl that can palm lightsabers,
So could Marr Idi-Shael.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
cube and explode droids that are tougher than durrasteel with gestures
According to NewGuy01, so could Kenobi.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
shatter blast doors,
Pretty sure everyone has done that.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
create force shields to survive in space
So did Zayne Carrick.

@WildBantha88 *Lose *Durasteel *Arsenal

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/639/Grammar-Nazi-1613.png

Originally posted by Emperordmb
@WildBantha88 *Lose *Durasteel *Arsenal

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/639/Grammar-Nazi-1613.png
He's never been the best with spelling.

Other people having done those feats makes them less impressive?

1. Only a select few people have pslmef lightsabers because it's hard to do and is one of the highest showing for tutaminus.

2. I don't recall Kenobi ever doing that

3. Again very few could but you forgot to address that even Hex droids with missiles and blaster cannons couldn't hope yo penetrate her shield.

Face it, Satele is badass

If you manage to respond to this tonight, I'll respond to you tomorrow. Goodnight.
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Other people having done those feats makes them less impressive?
Other not very strong people doing it diminishes the importance yet, especially those Dooku have/can ragdoll.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
1. Only a select few people have pslmef lightsabers because it's hard to do and is one of the highest showing for tutaminus.
Ah yes, Marr Idi-Shael, the uber powerful Jedi master.


I don't recall you having even a comparable knowledge to PT lore like NewGuy does. That being said, I'll ask him about it tomorrow.


I accept your concession. And yes, because Zayne is just so amazing.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
but you forgot to address that even Hex droids with missiles and blaster cannons couldn't hope yo penetrate her shield.
All that does is make those droids look less impressive, since Malgus could break through with a mere Force push:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nz8yoLlclg&t=0m25s

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A legendary Sith Lord who regularly puts the Kenobi/Anakin duo on their asses can't beat the girl who lost to Malgus in 15 seconds? BS.

As a Knight in training. You guys are getting awful at lowballing well.

Originally posted by Based
As a Knight in training. You guys are getting awful at lowballing well.
Quote in TOR says that her prime is not during TOR, which means it would be then/shortly after.

Fatal Alliance Satele impresses me more than Hope Satele...

Originally posted by Based
As a Knight in training. You guys are getting awful at lowballing well.
Satele is weaker than the Barsen'thor. She's nowhere near Dooku level

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fatal Alliance Satele impresses me more than Hope Satele...
Not even close. All hail Darth Mekhis.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130403193726/jedipedia/de/images/1/1a/Mekhis.png

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Other not very strong people doing it diminishes the importance yet, especially those Dooku have/can ragdoll.

Like he ragdolled lesser opponents like Ventress and Savage?



Marr Idi Shael, a Jedi trained by Jaden Korr, briefly trained by Jedi master Relin, defeated a One Sith clone of Jaden Korr and also had explosive Telekinetic prowess - all while only having literally, Hours of training



Because a single person knows everything? How many times have you gotten facts about Zannah wrong?




You mean like how amazing he was at losing his lightsaber to non-force senstives? pssh hell yeah, he's great.




And Dooku has had his defenses broken by Savage opress, you're point?

Barsenthor isnt approaching Dooku either

Dooku wins in a close fight.

Dooku wins and the result of Shan's lost leads to Bane's demise.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Dooku wins and the result of Shan's lost leads to Bane's demise.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Dooku wins and the result of Shan's lost leads to Bane's demise.



I have trained you well

Originally posted by carthage
Barsenthor isnt approaching Dooku either
That's the point I'm going for, tbh.

Forgive me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njos57IJf-0&t=0m52s If you do respond, I'll respond tomorrow, unless you talk in a omniscient tone again, because then I'll respond tonight.

And Kenobi, and a ton of others.

Not remotely impressive to Dooku.

Some people are just that great, yes.

*counts* Um, never?

We need a double-standards theme song for this forum, to be honest.
http://s005.radikal.ru/i209/1406/17/aab7b6a25d28.jpg

When he was enraged... who has also broken the defenses of Anakin and Kenobi. Savage is a beast.

Originally posted by carthage
Forgive me...
No. Not this time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
--Epic rap battle reference--

Nah



But, Satele is no Kenobi and her defense are great. Savage was largely unskilled and Dooku trained ventress - he would know of her weakness.



Who the heck said he was? he's not the fodder you make him out to be. I was only stating facts that you left out. I wasn't saying Marr> Dooku



I loled



A bunch of times and you know it.



Don't get me started on double-standards bubby.



Due to his strength... even So this Savage was unskilled.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Satele is weaker than the Barsen'thor. She's nowhere near Dooku level

I never said she's winning but basing this off of Hope Satele is a lowball.

Originally posted by Based
I never said she's winning but basing this off of Hope Satele is a lowball.

Prove that she got more skilled after that trailer.

Who did she ever fight who was more skilled than Darth Malgus?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I don't recall you having even a comparable knowledge to PT lore like NewGuy does. That being said, I'll ask him about it tomorrow. im not sure if its the same instance he's thinking of but in s4 ep11 of TCW at the 16 min mark kenobi effortlessly lifts and crushes 2 droids into balls.

Irrelevant comparison. Satele may be more powerful than Kenobi, but she isn't as skilled and she isn't doing any damage to Dooku with her TK. Likewise, Savage and Ventress are more skilled than Satele by a decent margin. Satele's beaten a no name Mekhis, and fought evenly with Baras who isn't that remarkable as a duelist either. She was also bested by a pre-prime Malgus, here showings as a duelist are mediocre.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Tyranus takes this one, though Satele will make him work for it.

Originally posted by carthage
Prove that she got more skilled after that trailer.


Given the fact she has yet to become a Master at that point let alone the Grand Master of the Order, I am logically assuming that she did not reach her peak especially as she is still undergoing training.



http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/biographies/jedi-grand-master-satele-shan

Originally posted by Based
Given the fact she has yet to become a Master at that point let alone the Grand Master of the Order, I am logically assuming that she did not reach her peak especially as she is still undergoing training.



http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/biographies/jedi-grand-master-satele-shan

You're evading my question. I asked for someone she beat that surpassed Malgus, and proof that she got better. You're using a speculative argument and accusing me of lowballing, yet I'm just pointing out her feats aren't that spectacular. You might want to re-read prior points.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Tyranus takes this one, though Satele will make him work for it.

To the sith violence was an art form, to the Grandmaster it seemed like life itself

Which says nothing about her skill as a duelist

Actually it does but since you only count win/loss record as a way to gauge a characters skill I can see why you would be blind to the meaning of that quote

lol

Im blind because its a nonsensical vague quote that doesnt substitute for her lack of dueling/skill feats. So what if she is "violent" that doesnt mean she is a good duelist

Your hopeless. That quote isn't saying she is violent, it is saying she is intimate with her fighting skills, more so than even sith who eat sleep and breath killing and death

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Your hopeless. That quote isn't saying she is violent, it is saying she is intimate with her fighting skills, more so than even sith who eat sleep and breath killing and death

Im guessing you cant comprehend that a stupid quote isnt the same as showings/feats of her dueling ability. So what she is "intimate" with her fighting skill, how does that make any difference in a fight with Dooku who has crushed powerful duelists like Kenobi and Bulq with ease

Neither of those to has he had any ease with defeating. Dooku is better than Satele that isn't in question but he isn't going to have as easy a time as hr did with Aotc Kenobi and Satele is the more powerful force wielder so Dooku is the one that needs to be careful in that area

Originally posted by carthage
Im guessing you cant comprehend that a stupid quote isnt the same as showings/feats of her dueling ability. So what she is "intimate" with her fighting skill, how does that make any difference in a fight with Dooku who has crushed powerful duelists like Kenobi and Bulq with ease

So says the guy that defended Saesee tiin's dueling prowess with a single quote and only wanks Saesee Tiin's sparring match with Windu - despite it Barely being a feat

Dooku is both more powerful and skillful.

Skilled? Yes. Powerful? No

Satele ragdolls.

First off Dooku's lightning means nothing in this battle, Satele can palm lightsabers his lightning got nothing in her.

In TK Satele has gestured droids that are tougher than durrasteel into balls, shattered a blast door, toppled a tree, and launched three sith in the air with one move. What has Dooku done to top that?

Count Dooku

I'm not sure why this mentality is so commonly adopted when concerning lightning. Not just in this case, but in general. Yes, lightsabers (or tutaminis) can counter lightning--But the case is the same for lightsabers as well. Just as a well placed strike can get past the defenses of an opposing duelist, lightning is also a valid tool against which there is no absolute defense. That said, the chances of Satele being overcome by it are low.



Not bad at all, but not as impressive as you're trying to make out, either. I personally find Dooku casually lifting over a dozen stone obelisks simultaneously more impressive. I mean, Obi-Wan's capable of bending re-enforced durasteel plates like a cheap spoon with his bare hands, but there's no way in hell he could bench-press one of those things.



Honestly this isn't all that impressive. For one thing the door was like 6 feet high, and only a few inches thick--Take a look at the doors the Barsen'thor busted up. Also, I had previously gathered that this was more of a display of Satele's ability to use shatterpoint than anything else.




Ventress could do that. Dooku TK raped Ventress with a finger.



Oh spare me, everyone and their grandma can do that.



More like, four. All of which being more relevant than the one you're spamming for Satele.

Regardless, what does the number of quotes have to do with anything? Saesee Tiin is one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the order, and one of the best Jedi it's ever produced. It is stated in the text. Just because you like to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore it doesn't make it any less of a fact.

EDIT: More than that, I have no idea why you're so strongly inclined to bring up Tiin whenever possible despite him being irrelevant to the thread. Are you really that butthurt?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
More like, four. All of which being more relevant than the one you're spamming for Satele.

I haven't spammed any quotes for Satele what-so-ever....



And Satele has a quote calling her a beacon for the republic and one of the most powerful Jedi at that...

What's your point? I don't ignore the text, i simply state that it holds no merit when we analyse Tiins prowess - much like when we analyse Cin Dralligs prowess.

Just Because Dooku praised him, doesn't mean he is in the same league as the others Dooku mentioned



You know, i find it funny, how. You defend Tiin in ever single thread he's in(Against Krayt, Revan etc) But despite us having a Mutual agreement to engage in a debate, You have not even responded. How about instead of calling me "butthurt" you actually engage in our debate.

Instead of harping on technicalities, you should really stick to the point. Your post was specifically addressing Carthage's response to the quote. Whether or not it is you or Bantha posting it matters little to me.



...So? I've never denied this.



Do you listen to yourself?



As well as threads he's not in, apparently.



I asked you to make the thread and you have yet to. That is not my problem.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Instead of harping on technicalities, you should really stick to the point. Your post was specifically addressing Carthage's response to the quote being repeatedly posted for Satele. Whether or not it is you or Bantha posting it matters little.

LOL that makes no sense, how can you accusing me of doing something I didn't even do and then just say "Yeah you said X thing" *Gets corrected* "But it doesn't matter what who said it because ...?" flawless logic right there




It "holds no merit" due to him having nothing to support his prowess - I've stated this many times before, what you quoted was a simple mistake on my part.



Only because you choose to be offended that the idea that Saesee is not all that impressive, I stated that, with the intention of pointing out Carthage's hypocrisy.



Shit, I misread the text from that thread as:

"So I'll post the topic i guess, I'll make an opening argument tomorrow, since you're so reluctant to do so"

Alright, My mistake.

This is highly entertaining.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
LOL that makes no sense

What doesn't? Who is posting the quote is irrelevant to my point, I don't care.



I don't see how it's a mistake. You are clearly saying that statements from the text do not count for some characters, but they do for others. Because you "stated it" so.



Were I to say the same of someone like Jaden Korr, you would surely be provoked to revoke it, would you not? The only difference is that I don't even like Saesee Tiin, so having to constantly refute this nonsense is really tiresome for me. Please believe that.

And, to quote carthage, let's please stop derailing the thread. Seriously, the page is going to end and the previous discussion is going to be snuffed out.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What doesn't? Who is posting the quote is irrelevant to my point, I don't care.

Then don't come at me with inaccurate accusations kiddo.



I wasn't stating "Oh satele's accolade holds merit because I say so, but Saesee tiin does because i hate him crying face" I was arguing that she also has an accolade like Tiins - perhaps even more impressive(though that is left up in the air for debate - the impressiveness of the accolade i mean.)



I hardly give a damn for anything regarding trolls trying to low ball Jaden just to get at me kiddo, Carthage tried that and failed. And if you don't like to respond, then don't simple as that broski.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So says the guy that defended Saesee tiin's dueling prowess with a single quote and only wanks Saesee Tiin's sparring match with Windu - despite it Barely being a feat

I never once brought up Saesee's feat in the debate I humiliated you in in your crap team vs. B team. I know you're butthurt that Tiin is considered one of the best in the order, but I never once brought up that moment in that entire discussion you chickened out of.

I really, really don't see the point of arguing any of this in the first place. The only way you bringing that up in your argument makes any sense were if you believed Satele wasn't worthy of those accolades, which is clearly untrue.



So you're calling yourself a troll now. And I swear, for someone who was so upset about condescension, you're pretty snobbish, guy.



Sadly, I have a duty.

Satele has no dueling feats to compare to Dooku. She's beaten Mekhis who is featless, and you're bringing up a different point dufus. That quote Bantha brought up had nothing to do with being "the best of the order", it had to do with a subjective appraisal of her fighting style not skill. Learn to comprehend text.



This coming from the guy who conceded to me and ran out of the debate when you were losing. You have no right to criticize Newguy or anyone.

I never disputed Satele as being "the best of her era", you're confused between quotes like a tool. For one she has better dueling feat than Saesee, so you're drawing on a false comparison.



Do I need to link to the thread where you were crying like a girl when Freshest was just pointing out that you were hyping Jaden's feats?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t598261.html

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I really, really don't see the point of arguing any of this in the first place. The only way you bringing that up in your argument makes any sense were if you believed Satele wasn't worthy of those accolades, which is clearly untrue.

I brought it up to show she has a similar accolade...




How is not giving a crap about what people - who are so obviously only trying to goad me by saying Jaden sucks - are going to say, make me a troll? How am I snobbish for that? at the very least I don't pretend to be a Judge of all SW characters lists and such and if i **** up I can recognize and apologize for it(Insert what do you want a trophy joke here)



Then that's your problem now isn't it kiddo?

Fated is really angry and losing badly to Newguy.

But I never mentioned her, or implied any sort of comparison between them at all. It was just random, and I have no clue what you were trying to achieve.



Except I said no such thing. To make a point about why I was responding, I said were the situation reversed, you too would try to refute what you see to be an inaccuracy concerning a character like Jaden. You replied by saying you would not take the opinions of trolls into consideration.

So apparently what you're saying to me is that I shouldn't take your opinion into consideration, because... you're a troll?



Whatever you say, kiddo.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But I never mentioned her, or implied any sort of comparison between them at all. It was just random, and I have no clue what you were trying to achieve.

You were comparing Tiin to Satele's accolade...



No, don't twist my words kid. Here's what i really said:


I hardly give a damn for anything regarding trolls trying to low ball Jaden just to get at me kiddo

If people can make a valid argument against Jaden, I'll acknowledge it, but if they are so obviously just trying to goad me, I will ignore and move on. When i point out Saesee Tiin's lack of ability(for a lack of a better term) i don't do so with the intent of goading and/or trolling, I do it to show Carthage that he has contradicted himself on several occasions. in other words, i call him on his Bullshit. Do not twist my words to make your own argument look better.



What do you hope to accomplish with this? Are you that intent on finding a double-standard for me? I don't even wank Ragnos to make Jaden seem better, nor do i wank the fact that he was Korriban and Vjun. In fact you can ask Ant, Dmb, Sinious, Jack - hell even Tempest! They'll tell you that I share the same view i have for Saesee with Tulak Hord, Cin Drallig and many other characters with just accolades to support them.

I guess you're going to keep repeating the same nonsense in spite of:

A. Losing an argument where I never brought up Tiin's dueling feat, you remember the one you chickened out of.

B. You deliberately tried to pass off Depa's amped performance against Windu as evidence of her skill.

I know you won't respond because you're too busy hyperventilating and raging hard.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You were comparing the quotes.

Ah, you got me there. I completely, 100% forgot about that. It's still irrelevant, but I see where you were coming from.

May read the wall of angst later, but I'm done for the night. Sayonara~

Bane dies.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm not sure why this mentality is so commonly adopted when concerning lightning. Not just in this case, but in general. Yes, lightsabers (or tutaminis) can counter lightning--But the case is the same for lightsabers as well. Just as a well placed strike can get past the defenses of an opposing duelist, lightning is also a valid tool against which there is no absolute defense. That said, the chances of Satele being overcome by it are low.
Point is that Dooku's lightning talent is insignificant to overcome Satele Shan.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not bad at all, but not as impressive as you're trying to make out, either. I personally find Dooku casually lifting over a dozen stone obelisks simultaneously more impressive. I mean, Obi-Wan's capable of bending re-enforced durasteel plates like a cheap spoon with his bare hands, but there's no way in hell he could bench-press one of those things.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Satele Shan demonstrated a feat which was possible with combination of raw power and mastery of esoteric talents, a complex task.

Count Dooku's obalisks lifting feat, whilst impressive, is a pure demonstration of his raw power in use of telekinesis. However, keeping in mind the official declaration that Satele Shan is a prodigiously gifted Force-use, she might be good enough to duplicate or exceed Dooku's greatest telekinetic showings.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Honestly this isn't all that impressive. For one thing the door was like 6 feet high, and only a few inches thick--Take a look at the doors the Barsen'thor busted up. Also, I had previously gathered that this was more of a display of Satele's ability to use shatterpoint than anything else.
A blast door is a tough structure to crack irrespective of size. Jedi typically resort to using a lightsaber to crack open a blast/reinforced door but this is time-consuming effort (CIP: Qui-Gon's attempt to destroy a reinforced door in Episode I).

However, Satele Shan, being a prodigiously gifted Force-user, utterly shattered/dismantled a blast door by simply touch it, effortlessly. This feat also demonstrates her amazing potential with shatterpoint, a talent which she can utilize in other situations.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Ventress could do that. Dooku TK raped Ventress with a finger.
Asajj Ventress have never downed a (gigantic) tree that weighted like a too tons or more while holding off a Sith heavyweight at bay with a single arm.

Also, Count Dooku may have caught Asajj Ventress off-guard once, therefore the outcome which you proudly referred. However, the former didn't dominate the latter like that in another confrontation. Your over-reliance on that one-time occurrence is futile.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh spare me, everyone and their grandma can do that.
Really? Did you even watch the feat properly? Satele Shan applied an esoteric application which crawled up to the position of three Sith from the ground and then exploded killing all 3 simultaneously.

Your attempts to cheapen feats of Satele Shan are really lame.

Where are the quotes, LeGenD?

Satele dies

Most of the listed feats for Satele aren't feats far beyond the feats of force users whom Dooku has casually dominated with the force. Toppling trees and crushing droids have been duplicated by Kenobi, among other impressive TK showings. Ventress has collapsed huge boulders from a cave and crushed giant warriors like bugs with them, has caused a massive avalanche, and nearly crushed the heart of master Fay. Vos has shattered the ground beneath him with a force push. Yet, when it comes to TK, none of them even approach Dooku, as evident in his casual handling of them.

As far as dueling, in season 6 of TCW, Dooku basically proved that had Anakin not been there, he'd have ended Kenobi in seconds. Hell, Ventress, who is an Obi Wan level duelist herself, couldn't even gain an advantage over a drugged and blind Dooku in a saber duel despite triple teaming him with two other nightsisters, who were regarded as the clan's greatest warriors. Then there's the fact that Dooku has outdueled both Bulq and Tholme simultaneously.

For any attempt to lowball Tiin, the fact that Tiin is regarded as being one of the greatest duelist in an era Lucas refers to as the jedi in it's prime and Luke also referring to the era of jedi as the most powerful, would put Tiin above most by default. Not to mention that he was stated to have one of the most powerful force abilities of his time, and has been implied to have raw power that rivals Windu--a master who could nearly disintegrate a group of battle droids with a mere force push. Also, Tiin's ability to navigate ships in hyperspace with the force alone would suggest immense strength and command of the force (though I think the feat was performed during meditation, but still...). Not to mention his speed feats such as forming a shield from his blade to deflect waves of blaster bolts. It's not that Tiin lacks the hype/accolades/feats to suggest he is pretty high up their and far, far beyond average, it's the fact that Sidious took him out so ridiculously easy that people don't want to accept Tiin's superiority, because just by taking Tiin out alone so easily, would make it far too difficult for the TOR fan's to debunk the notion that Sidious could take out most of the TOR wanked characters just as easily, but that's if someone wanted to enforce Sidious's speed in this forum. Let's face it, if Silver were to come here, and make such a notion, no one would be able to counter him, because the minute someone brings up "well no Sidious can't do that to so and so because they are powerful," Silver would counter it with the fact that Tiin, too, is powerful. Not to mention that this "being powerful" logic you TOR supporters use to counter any notion of Sidious blitzing, is logic that can be used against your count claims. If speed is determined by power, the fact that the council members that Sidious did blitz are all regarded as some of the greatest swordsmen produced by the order, immense speed would be something they would have to have at their disposal. Speed is just as important in a saber duel as technical skill. If one lacks the speed to put his/her technical skill in good use, they wouldn't be referred to as top duelist by jedi standards. So prodigious speed would be a must, which would logically mean that they are force powerhouses.

Regardless, majority of the TOR characters that are wanked on these boards don't even have the feats to put them above the likes of Tiin, Kolar or Fisto. In a hype/accolade contest, most of which are relied on here to elevate TOR characters, these three jedi master council members shit all over most. The strike team assembled to take on Sidious, is one of the best strike teams (perhaps the best) that as ever been assembled to take on a powerful foe.

Somebody start the slow clap.

S66 - Have you got an account on CV I don't know about?

Originally posted by ILS
S66 - Have you got an account on CV I don't know about?


DOMINIS.

Ahhhhh. Makes sense now.

Originally posted by ILS
Ahhhhh. Makes sense now.


How so?

Similar posting style that I hadn't picked up on before.

Originally posted by ILS
Similar posting style that I hadn't picked up on before.


I've never debated with you on there have I?

Nope. I remember you posting though.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Most of the listed feats for Satele aren't feats far beyond the feats of force users whom Dooku has casually dominated with the force. Toppling trees and crushing droids have been duplicated by Kenobi, among other impressive TK showings. Ventress has collapsed huge boulders from a cave and crushed giant warriors like bugs with them, has caused a massive avalanche, and nearly crushed the heart of master Fay. Vos has shattered the ground beneath him with a force push. Yet, when it comes to TK, none of them even approach Dooku, as evident in his casual handling of them.

As far as dueling, in season 6 of TCW, Dooku basically proved that had Anakin not been there, he'd have ended Kenobi in seconds. Hell, Ventress, who is an Obi Wan level duelist herself, couldn't even gain an advantage over a drugged and blind Dooku in a saber duel despite triple teaming him with two other nightsisters, who were regarded as the clan's greatest warriors. Then there's the fact that Dooku has outdueled both Bulq and Tholme simultaneously.

For any attempt to lowball Tiin, the fact that Tiin is regarded as being one of the greatest duelist in an era Lucas refers to as the jedi in it's prime and Luke also referring to the era of jedi as the most powerful, would put Tiin above most by default. Not to mention that he was stated to have one of the most powerful force abilities of his time, and has been implied to have raw power that rivals Windu--a master who could nearly disintegrate a group of battle droids with a mere force push. Also, Tiin's ability to navigate ships in hyperspace with the force alone would suggest immense strength and command of the force (though I think the feat was performed during meditation, but still...). Not to mention his speed feats such as forming a shield from his blade to deflect waves of blaster bolts. It's not that Tiin lacks the hype/accolades/feats to suggest he is pretty high up their and far, far beyond average, it's the fact that Sidious took him out so ridiculously easy that people don't want to accept Tiin's superiority, because just by taking Tiin out alone so easily, would make it far too difficult for the TOR fan's to debunk the notion that Sidious could take out most of the TOR wanked characters just as easily, but that's if someone wanted to enforce Sidious's speed in this forum. Let's face it, if Silver were to come here, and make such a notion, no one would be able to counter him, because the minute someone brings up "well no Sidious can't do that to so and so because they are powerful," Silver would counter it with the fact that Tiin, too, is powerful. Not to mention that this "being powerful" logic you TOR supporters use to counter any notion of Sidious blitzing, is logic that can be used against your count claims. If speed is determined by power, the fact that the council members that Sidious did blitz are all regarded as some of the greatest swordsmen produced by the order, immense speed would be something they would have to have at their disposal. Speed is just as important in a saber duel as technical skill. If one lacks the speed to put his/her technical skill in good use, they wouldn't be referred to as top duelist by jedi standards. So prodigious speed would be a must, which would logically mean that they are force powerhouses.

Regardless, majority of the TOR characters that are wanked on these boards don't even have the feats to put them above the likes of Tiin, Kolar or Fisto. In a hype/accolade contest, most of which are relied on here to elevate TOR characters, these three jedi master council members shit all over most. The strike team assembled to take on Sidious, is one of the best strike teams (perhaps the best) that as ever been assembled to take on a powerful foe.

Lol wtf.

Holy giant wall of speculative text Batman!

Yes. Tiin and Kolar are all hype and no feats where as Satele has even greater hype and actual powerful showings. So the notion that is only kolar level is ridiculous

How the hell is Kolar all hype with no feats? Quinlan Vos has established dueling feats and Kolar wrecked him in literally a matter of a move or two - and his accolades only support him being skilled enough to do this.

Quinlan is a decent duelist but not the best. He is below Fisto level who is pretty damn skilled but still just a mid council member

Vos obviously isn't the best.

Yes, he is below Fisto as a duelist.

"Mid council member" is a meaningless title.

What does that have to do with Kolar's level of skill apparently being based entirely on accolades?

Eh, I think all hype is more of a Tiin thing, he has a few showings here and there but nothing that great in terms of lightsaber combat - force wise he's decent i suppose. Kolar at the very least did defeat Quinlan Vos, though this was at a time where dooku considered his skill atrocious, so it's impressive, but it wasn't Vos at his peak.

Originally posted by ILS
Vos obviously isn't the best.

Yes, he is below Fisto as a duelist.

"Mid council member" is a meaningless title.

What does that have to do with Kolar's level of skill apparently being based entirely on accolades? so you agree. Kolar isnt that great. So how is Satele only on his level?

Dooku is just about the worst guy to ask for an opinion on someone's dueling skill. What he says about duelists differs greatly from what they end up accomplishing.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
so you agree. Kolar isnt that great. So how is Satele only on his level? I don't agree with any of what you've said.. It depends on what context you're referring to Kolar in. In terms of lightsaber skill, in comparison to Satele, he's obviously above her.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Holy giant wall of speculative text Batman!


Can you pin point the speculation? You have a habit of criticizing arguments you can't even begin to counter, yet you consider yourself above insults and trolling, which is what you're doing here. And you have your nerve to accuse Cart of being a troll and getting riled up when I defend him?

@Bantha, the only one on Mace's B-team who lacks combat feats is Tiin (the other two have extremely good combat showings, as ILS pointed out), but he has extremely good force feats, speed feats, and accolades. No, Satele does not have better hype. In fact her hype has no bearing on an era that has yet to exist. The B-team are referred to as the greatest of all time, which includes Satele's era. It doesn't automatically prove they are better than her, but their accolades and hype does hold more merit than Satele's. Logically, being at the top of an era in it's prime would be a harder position to achieve than any in other era. Regardless, I wasn't trying to compare them to Satele, I was addressing any attempt to lowball Tiin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol wtf.

You are saying "hype from earlier eras mean less than hype from eras that come later" which is an idiotic statement. Satele Shan was originally going to fulfill the role that the HOT later did. As such she is established as being the very top of her era, an era the produced many impressive characters. If you are just talking about hype Satele has that and then some plus she has the showings to back it up

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Can you pin point the speculation? You have a habit of criticizing arguments you can't even begin to counter, yet you consider yourself above insults and trolling, which is what you're doing here.

How is what Fated said insulting and trolling, lol.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
You are saying "hype from earlier eras mean less than hype from eras that come later" which is an idiotic statement. Satele Shan was originally going to fulfill the role that the HOT later did. As such she is established as being the very top of her era, an era the produced many impressive characters. If you are just talking about hype Satele has that and then some plus she has the showings to back it up


I'm saying that the majority of the hype from earlier eras doesn't hold more merit (which is what's been claimed here) since the hype has no connection to characters who didn't even exist then. Pay attention.

Quality > quantity. Each member from the B-team have feats to back up their hype as well. As I said earlier, though, I wasn't suggesting that the members were Satele's superior, however, their hype shits all over majority of the TOR characters that are wanked furiously on this forum.

Obviously you're getting mad over points that you're missing.

I will admit, the B-Team is generally an underrated force. They're not going toe to toe with legendary and prodigious Sith Lords like Dooku, but they're still some of the best Jedi in history.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm saying that the majority of the hype from earlier eras doesn't hold more merit (which is what's been claimed here) since the hype has no connection to characters who didn't even exist then. Pay attention.

Quality > quantity. Each member from the B-team have feats to back up their hype as well. As I said earlier, though, I wasn't suggesting that the members were Satele's superior, however, their hype shits all over majority of the TOR characters that are wanked furiously on this forum.

Obviously you're getting mad over points that you're missing. no one is getting mad. I am simply stating your illogic. The only time that later era hype>early era hype is if the quote says something like "of all time". And satele has better quality of hype than the b-team. And Satele has the feats to back up her vastly superior hype. She is capable of pulling off feats that only a legendary could and is constantly referred to as one of the most powerful Jedi in existence at that time.

Agen Kolar being considered one of the best duelists in the Order along with Mace, and absolutely decimating a serious Quinlan Vos, is enough to put him on par with the likes of Dooku. Dooku would beat him but it'd be after a hard fight (unless he uses the Force, which has nothing to do with dueling).

Originally posted by ILS
Agen Kolar being considered one of the best duelists in the Order along with Mace, and absolutely decimating a serious Quinlan Vos, is enough to put him on par with the likes of Dooku. Dooku would beat him but it'd be after a hard fight (unless he uses the Force, which has nothing to do with dueling). lol you crack me up

Originally posted by WildBantha88
no one is getting mad. I am simply stating your illogic. The only time that later era hype>early era hype is if the quote says something like "of all time". And satele has better quality of hype than the b-team. And Satele has the feats to back up her vastly superior hype. She is capable of pulling off feats that only a legendary could and is constantly referred to as one of the most powerful Jedi in existence at that time.

You mean those quotes hich doesn't make her more skilled of a fighter than Dooku? Why are you going off on B team when they're not involved in this thread? How does being more powerful than B team mean she could take Dooku? And no she isn't more skilled than Kolar or Fisto, she got thrashed by Malgus multiple times and none of the opponents she beat are even noteworthy.

I don't even get why these Kolar/Tiin/Fisto get underrated so much anyway. It doesn't benefit anyone else's preferred characters to downgrade them as far as I can tell. Do people really think that being speedblitzed by Sidious is the mark of a terrible combatant?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
lol you crack me up I'm glad.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Can you pin point the speculation? You have a habit of criticizing arguments you can't even begin to counter, yet you consider yourself above insults and trolling, which is what you're doing here. And you have your nerve to accuse Cart of being a troll and getting riled up when I defend him

Sadly, im on my phone and can't really respond at the moment. I will once I get home tho, apologies for the inconvenience. '

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Quality > quantity. Each member from the B-team have feats to back up their hype as well. As I said earlier, though, I wasn't suggesting that the members were Satele's superior, however, their hype shits all over majority of the TOR characters that are wanked furiously on this forum.

Eh, the TOR characters we wank on this forum are Malgus, Vitiate, HoT, Barsen'thor, Nox, Wrath, Thanaton, Leneer, Baras, Jadus, Zallow, Darach etc. All of whom are um, decisively not shat on by the B-team. IDK who else you'd be referring to.

The Wrath is definitely not wanked. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3156199618.gif

Yeah, unless it's by Vette. >:]

The Wraths are a universally hated cult of force users.

Originally posted by ILS
I don't even get why these Kolar/Tiin/Fisto get underrated so much anyway. It doesn't benefit anyone else's preferred characters to downgrade them as far as I can tell. Do people really think that being speedblitzed by Sidious is the mark of a terrible combatant? Fisto did better than them and Fisto, while skilled, doesn't hold a candle to most of the characters that we recognize. Of the the characters that we debate they are on the low end

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Fisto did better than them and Fisto, while skilled, doesn't hold a candle to most of the characters that we recognize. Of the the characters that we debate they are on the low end

Most of the TOR characters you wank are more inferior in terms of skill like it or not.

Gnost? You just love to hate him

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Fisto did better than them and Fisto, while skilled, doesn't hold a candle to most of the characters that we recognize. Of the the characters that we debate they are on the low end Fisto wasn't the first one to be targeted by Sidious, and part of why Agen and Tiin were killed was surprise as much as speed. Fisto is actually pretty fast, and he had Mace helping him, so it's no slight against Kolar or Tiin, really.

I don't care where you rank Fisto in relation to whoever you're talking about. You probably think Satele Shan using redirected lightsaber energy is a better dueling feat than Kolar's stomping of Vos cus "she's high council level" or something.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
no one is getting mad. I am simply stating your illogic. The only time that later era hype>early era hype is if the quote says something like "of all time". And satele has better quality of hype than the b-team. And Satele has the feats to back up her vastly superior hype. She is capable of pulling off feats that only a legendary could and is constantly referred to as one of the most powerful Jedi in existence at that time.


Still missing the point. No wonder it's illogical in your mind. Anyone who is capable of following wouldn't be calling my argument illogical, unless they aren't thinking logically themselves.

Again, I'm not comparing Satele to the B-team, and I'm not saying she doesn't have better quality feats, but the way you're wording your argument seems to suggest that you believe more feats means better feats, which isn't true. Tiin is also capable of pulling off feats that only legendary jedi could, has been constantly referred to as one of the greatest "of all time," and has been stated as having one of the strongest force abilities of his era, so how you conclude that she has better quality hype is beyond me.

Is this an attempt to misdirect the real argument: Satele vs Dooku?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Gnost? You just love to hate him

Not just him but Neph's loltastic post about Zallow, Jadus, Thanaton, Barsen, and othe TOR characters being more skilled than Fisto or Kolar.

You just have a piss poor way of evaluating characters. You think that the only way an impressive character can exist is if that character defeats another impressive character. Therefore for an impressive character to exist another must.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
You just have a piss poor way of evaluating characters. You think that the only way an impressive character can exist is if that character defeats another impressive character. Therefore for an impressive character to exist another must.

Are you mad they have superior showings? I can't help that and it's not my problem tbh. If you're comparing a guy whose beaten no names to X character who has beaten recognized fighters, how are we supposed to gauge the skill of the other duelist who has beaten opponents who are inferior? You can cite your personal opinion all you want, but the character with the objectively better showings- is the one who we can say is likely more skilled. How is it 'piss poor' to go by what the character accomplished rather than a bunch of circumstance or worse your personal opinion?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh, the TOR characters we wank on this forum are Malgus, Vitiate, HoT, Barsen'thor, Nox, Wrath, Thanaton, Leneer, Baras, Jadus, Zallow, Darach etc. All of whom are um, decisively not shat on by the B-team. IDK who else you'd be referring to.


You're missing the point too. I said in terms of hype/accolades/implications, which are what you TOR fans rely on to elevate characters higher than they should be, the members of the B-team shit on most in that category. Never said they would shit on the characters you listed in combat.

You wank those characters too hard. That's the problem.

@Fated, I just logged in on my phone too, so I understand, but the things I said still stand. You should have made it known before making such statements, as in not doing so, it makes you look like a hypocrite when you call others trolls.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're missing the point too. I said in terms of hype/accolades/implications, which are what you TOR fans rely on to elevate characters higher than they should be, the members of the B-team shit on most in that category. Never said they would shit on the characters you listed in combat.

You wank those characters too hard. That's the problem.

No, they don't though. Being called one of the best ever just isn't as impressive as you take it to be. It's a vague as balls accolade that could apply to any number of people. Being one of the best of any era should logically make you one of the best of all time. It's not far better than the Barsen'thor "embodying true skill", Thanaton being "supremely powerful" or Jadus being held as the 2nd most powerful Sith of the era, unless you choose to believe it is.

Except that Jadus's quote can mean anything from most part, as he is featless for the most part

Kolar and Tiin don't exactly swim in feats themselves buddy.

Not really, no.



Yes, it really is.



That doesn't even translate to skill.

Fighting impressive characters is not the only way of determing a characters skill. Just because a character hasn't faced an impressive character doesn't mean he can't. If you are talking about Gnost he man handled the lower opponents like a high level character would, he has accolades estabshing as an impressive fighter and has a quote that say his soresu is perfect. None of that is speculation or opinion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really, no.

Why not?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, it really is.

In your opinion. Perhaps I disagree.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That doesn't even translate to skill.

I'm not talking about just skill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kolar and Tiin don't exactly swim in feats themselves buddy.

They've still got more to choose from than a random like Jadus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, they don't though. Being called one of the best ever just isn't as impressive as you take it to be. It's a vague as balls accolade that could apply to any number of people. Being one of the best of any era should logically make you one of the best of all time. It's not far better than the Barsen'thor "embodying true skill" or Jadus being held as the 2nd most powerful Sith of the era, unless you choose to believe it is.


It's not vague, it's a very straight forward statement, and should only apply to those who are deserving of the title, and logically should be a very hard position to fill, otherwise the title wouldn't make sense at all. The title suggests that they stand out in a history that has seen billions of jedi. And yes, it's a far better accolade and isn't nearly as vague as "embodying true skill."

Being one of the best in an era in it's prime, according to both George Lucas and Luke Skywalker, would logically make being one of the best an even harder position to fulfill than in a lesser era, which is why Satele's hype in itself doesn't hold more merit.

Being one of the best at one point obviously doesn't translate to being one of the best there's ever been.

"Embodying true skill" and being considered "perfect" are actually far less quantifiable than being considered one of the best duelists of an era. The latter is a means of demonstrating that the character receiving the accolade is better than other characters - and in the case of the PT era, there are many impressive characters to be better than or ranked alongside.

Being called perfect, or another popular one, "unparalleled", doesn't literally mean they are faultless as combatants, it just denotes a good level of skill which can't be quantified.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's not vague, it's a very straight forward statement, and should only apply to those who are deserving of the title, and logically should be a very hard position to fill, otherwise the title wouldn't make sense at all. The title suggests that they stand out in a history that has seen billions of jedi. And yes, it's a far better accolade and isn't nearly as vague as "embodying true skill."

Being one of the best in an era in it's prime, according to both George Lucas and Luke Skywalker, would logically make being one of the best an even harder position to fulfill than in a lesser era, which is why Satele's hype in itself doesn't hold more merit.

It's vague due to its unquantifiable nature. Being among the best in a history that as you say has seen billions means what? Top hundred? Top million? All your qualifications for your statement apply to mine as well. Embodying true skill should only apply to those who deserve it and logically be hard to achieve. Embodying a virtue definitely suggests they stand out even among others who possess that virtue in great amounts.

Era bias so lame.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Being one of the best at one point obviously doesn't translate to being one of the best there's ever been.

But it does though. Because being one of the best theres ever been is so vague you can apply it as such easily.

Originally posted by ILS
"Embodying true skill" and being considered "perfect" are actually far less quantifiable than being considered one of the best duelists of an era. The latter is a means of demonstrating that the character receiving the accolade is better than other characters - and in the case of the PT era, there are many impressive characters to be better than or ranked alongside.

Being called perfect, or another popular one, "unparalleled", doesn't literally mean they are faultless as combatants, it just denotes a good level of skill which can't be quantified.

And why is that different from "one of" the best ever? That can't be quantified either.

Because it is quite literally telling us that the character is better than the vast majority of competition out there. It doesn't need to be boiled down to an actual numbered ranking for it to be seen as more impressive than "Embodying true skill", which does nothing other than say the character is skilled with flowery language.

To put it simply - saying someone is skilled because they are better than others, is better than saying someone is skilled because they are skilled.

Originally posted by ILS
Because it is quite literally telling us that the character is better than the vast majority of competition out there.
Same can be said for just about any high ranking Sith/Jedi significant enough to be named.

Originally posted by ILS
Because it is quite literally telling us that the character is better than the vast majority of competition out there. It doesn't need to be boiled down to an actual numbered ranking for it to be seen as more impressive than "Embodying true skill", which does nothing other than say the character is skilled with flowery language.

To put it simply - saying someone is skilled because they are better than others, is better than saying someone is skilled because they are skilled.

Theres hardly any difference there. Embodying true skill also tells us that the person is better than the majority of the competition out there. Most people aren't so skilled that they embody the very attribute.

And I disagree with your premise. Someone being more skilled than others doesn't suggest they're more skilled than someone who also has an accolade suggesting incredible skill. Since the second quote also suggests their skill is extraordinary and above most others.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Same can be said for just about any high ranking Sith/Jedi significant enough to be named. Simply being a named character isn't an accolade, lol.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres hardly any difference there. Embodying true skill also tells us that the person is better than the majority of the competition out there. Most people aren't so skilled that they embody the very attribute.

And I disagree with your premise. Someone being more skilled than others doesn't suggest they're more skilled than someone who also has an accolade suggesting incredible skill. Since the second quote also suggests their skill is extraordinary and above most others. No. Embodying true skill tells us that the characters embodies true skill. An accolade like that might help when debating against a character who doesn't have a flowery accolade to match it - but against someone like Agen Kolar who is objectively one of the best duelists of an era filled with skilled duelists, it just isn't going to stack up. Your argument that someone being impressive already puts them ahead of the majority doesn't work - we don't know who's in the majority. For all we know any random Joe could "embody true skill" - the fact of the matter with Kolar's accolade is that there is no doubt about how skilled he is unless you want to be as meticulous as a top 10 list.

Feel free to disagree, because honestly I think relying on statements in place of feats is a bad move to begin with. And I think we should all focus less on Era and more on individual characters. Set aside that X is a PT character fighting a TOR character, and just compare their feats side by side without even mentioning their era.

...unless of course it's to do with discussing how far-stretching an "best of __ era" is.

"Embodying true skill" is just a fancy way of saying the person is very skilled. It is by no means as straight forward as being termed "one of the best in history." There is nothing unquantifiable about it, other than how many jedi hold the position, but the very straightforwardness of the term suggests that not many jedi hold that title compared to how many jedi have been in the order period. Being termed as such separates them from the very vast majority of jedi history has seen. This is really simple logic, Neph, and, TBH, I think you know it is, so why are you arguing against it?

"Embodying true skill" was just an example btw. I'm not saying that I hold it as high as being one of the best era, just pointing out that it can easily be argued as highly and proving that the "one of the best" accolade really isn't as great as people think it is.

Originally posted by ILS
No. Embodying true skill tells us that the characters embodies true skill. An accolade like that might help when debating against a character who doesn't have a flowery accolade to match it - but against someone like Agen Kolar who is objectively one of the best duelists of an era filled with skilled duelists, it just isn't going to stack up. Your argument that someone being impressive already puts them ahead of the majority doesn't work - we don't know who's in the majority. For all we know any random Joe could "embody true skill" - the fact of the matter with Kolar's accolade is that there is no doubt about how skilled he is unless you want to be as meticulous as a top 10 list.

And what does a character embodying true skill tell us? Embodying an attribute suggests peerless possession of that attribute. You're not just skillful, you are Skill itself. It's only your opinion that it doesn't stack up. If I disagree then you have no way to actually refute my own opinion. Both of these statements are subjective. We don't know who's in the majority in either case. And we don't know how exactly skilled Kolar is based on that quote. You're making a judgement call that you find it more impressive than the quote I'm bringing up. I'm just making the point that it really isn't some amazing accolade that shits on everything else as S66 is suggesting. He just thinks it does.

Originally posted by ILS
Feel free to disagree, because honestly I think relying on statements in place of feats is a bad move to begin with. And I think we should all focus less on Era and more on individual characters. Set aside that X is a PT character fighting a TOR character, and just compare their feats side by side without even mentioning their era.

...unless of course it's to do with discussing how far-stretching an "best of __ era" is.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"Embodying true skill" is just a fancy way of saying the person is very skilled. It is by no means as straight forward as being termed "one of the best in history." There is nothing unquantifiable about it, other than how many jedi hold the position, but the very straightforwardness of the term suggests that not many jedi hold that title compared to how many jedi have been in the order period. Being termed as such separates them from the very vast majority of jedi history has seen. This is really simple logic, Neph, and, TBH, I think you know it is, so why are you arguing against it?

Just because it's more flowery doesn't make it more vague. Both quotes are ultimately just saying the person is skilled in a fancy manner, don't BS me. And no, your quote is unquantifiable both in how many hold the position and in what position Kolar possesses. Is he the 99th most skilled duelist ever? The 999999th? And embodying true skill can be said to separate a Jedi just as much, just as easily. Theres no intrinsic superiority at play here. Your accolade doesn't "shit" on others.

I'm arguing against your logic because you're taking a vague, not particularly worth much quote and arguing that it shits on other accolades. Which I genuinely disagree with.

Quiet you. Don't make me get Nephthys121 to teach you a lesson, junior.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
For any attempt to lowball Tiin, the fact that Tiin is regarded as being one of the greatest duelist in an era Lucas refers to as the jedi in it's prime and Luke also referring to the era of jedi as the most powerful, would put Tiin above most by default.

See that logic doesn't really stick with me, if an era - is by default above every single era that came before them, does that mean that any jedi from the PT -for argument's sake let's say, Stass allie or any other relatively unknown Jedi you can think of, since the jedi are regarded as in their prime, does that mean Stass Allie or X person could give someone like Kao Cen Darach trouble?

Alright, so yes Tiin is regarded as one of the greatest duelists of his era, however, are we really going to ignore the simple fact that jedi like Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi and Depa Billaba(circumstantial or not) have feats that far surpass what Saesee Tiin has done?

Again, Saesee Tiin has praise, great that's awesome, however, Cin Drallig has been called a great swordsmen as well in the same era as Tiin, does that mean Cin Drallig could defeat warriors like Exar Kun, Ulic, Malak and Revan? simply because he is regarded as a powerful duelist in era where the Jedi at their prime?



I'd just like to state right now that, that is impressive, his force prowess is something I recognize, my problem with him is his lack of dueling feats.



Those speed feats are quite common in the SW universe, though I am curious about the source of "forming a shield with his his blade to deflect waves of blaster bolts" A source would be appreciated.

The fact remains, Accolades are only one part of a VS discussion, the second - and in my opinion the most important part as well, is the Feats and accomplishments section of debates. Again, let's go back to Drallig. He has the hype, yet would he be able to go up against Ulic, The Exile, Darth Nyrris or Darth Traya?



That's the thing, Tiin has Implied power, yet nothing to show for it, it doesn't make Sidious' feat any less impressive as he fought against four Jedi masters and took them down single-handedly. I agree that the wanking of TOR characters is a bit ridiculous at times, however some have good feats and accolades going for them - an example would be Darth Nyrris and Satele Shan.




This is the speculation that i disagree with. We simply cannot assume, that just because they are considered the best duelists, they have above and beyond average speed - An exception to this would be be Mace and probably Fisto as they are much more established than Kolar or Tiin, again, just because they have such hype, doesn't Necessarily mean they have to be particularly strong in all areas of the force and it's combative areas, a good example would be Raskta Lsu, a powerful weapons master who was incredibly skilled, yet her force defenses and force offense were quite lacking. Your argument very much filled with speculation in my humble opinion.



Tiin has feats that are easily replicated by most Jedi, Kolar and Fisto as well, the only exception to this is Mace. Quite honestly, all of B-team barring mace have feats that have no doubt been replicated and perhaps even surpassed by many Jedi/Sith/Force users in many of the EU literary works. In the end, there will always be characters better than the B-Team, the TOR protagonists, Etcetera- the only two exceptions to this rule are Sidious and Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not far better than the Barsen'thor "embodying true skill", Thanaton being "supremely powerful" or Jadus being held as the 2nd most powerful Sith of the era, unless you choose to believe it is.

facepalm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Do you just come to post just to spite Neph? What is wrong with you, have you no sense of decency?

Some people just love to troll, carthage. I'm sorry you have to see this.

I'm tired of his behavior. He is like some bizarre evil beast that only appears at random to terrorize people. I've had enough of it damn you Tempest, why don't you go to 4chan and post Palpatine JPEGS there you cretinous fiend

BTW, I can't actually recall the exact quote about the B-team being among the best duelists ever. Wasn't that just Mace's opinion or was it actually from a sourcebook?

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW, I can't actually recall the exact quote about the B-team being among the best duelists ever. Wasn't that just Mace's opinion or was it actually from a sourcebook?

I think it's stated by Shaak Ti and there's a quote in The Kenobi novel i think? i can't really remember atm

http://payload.cargocollective.com/1/2/88042/1097272/grasping%20at%20straws.jpg

I'm going to legit lmao if it's just an opinion tbh.

"Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced"

Its from Obi-Wan's perspective.

I'll get into more detail later, but the fact remains, there is nothing vague about being termed "one of the best in history." In fact, you can't get any more straightforward than that. As far as how many jedi hold the title of being one of the best in history is irrelevant. Fact is, holding such a title separates a jedi from the vast majority of jedi that history has seen, which is pretty outstanding in itself. To be one of the best in history, is, well, being one of the best in history. Arguing against that fact, is silly.

Basically, it's impossible to be one of the greatest duelist in history, but actually be only a bit above average at the same time. To imply that is simply illogical and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Fated, you're putting words in my mouth. To be one of the greatest jedi in an order that both GL and Luke Skywalker confirm as the jedi in it's prime, would put them above most (not all) by default, considering that achieving such a status in such an era would be more complicated than achieving it in any other era. Not to mention they are constantly referred to as some of the best in history. You disagreeing with it, is disagreeing with facts and logic.

Just so you know, when I get to your post, I'll be using your own logic and arguments against you.

tl;dr:

to "embody pure skill" or be "supremely powerful" at best implies extraordinary station.

to be declared "one of the best ever" confirms it.

To suggest they're equal is silly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
tl;dr:

to "embody pure skill" or be "supremely powerful" at best implies extraordinary station.

to be declared "one of the best ever" confirms it.

To suggest they're equal is silly.