(NewGuy01)Saesee Tiin Vs Qui-Gon Jinn(Fated Xtasy)

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Fated Xtasy
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111165168/3996001-1904617066-39681.jpg

Qui-Gon Jinn

Vs

Saesee Tiin

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120218021202/starwars/images/5/5b/SaeseeTiinTCW-SWE.jpg

This is a debate, between NewGuy01 and Myself for funsies big grin

**Rules:**

- Only NewGuy01 and I are allowed to make arguments for our selected characters.

- Any and all arguments that were NOT made by either NewGuy or myself will not be taken into consideration.

- You can comment on which character you think will win. Nothing more.

- There is will be a Two week time restriction, should one of us not answer within these two weeks, the other will win by default.

NewGuy01 will go first. Best of luck to you dude big grin

ILS
Ends in sex

Dionysus
Originally posted by ILS
Ends in sex Which one gets pregnant?

ILS
Originally posted by Dionysus
Which one gets pregnant? Fated

carthage
laughing out loud

Dionysus
Originally posted by ILS
Fated LOL

NewGuy01
I swear how fast your mood swings is frightening. I'll construct an opening post by tomorrow, it's too late to finish tonight.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I swear how fast your mood swings is frightening. I'll construct an opening post by tomorrow, it's too late to finish tonight.

If you're done making comments about my "supposed" mood disorder that you and Ant think i have, then let me know and start this. I was not at all aggressive with you during our little scuffle in the Dooku V Satele thread. Refrain yourself from insinuating such things, it's offensive. I haven't offended you in the slightest kiddo erm

ILS
Rule #1 of the internet, being offended by anything is a sign of weakness and must be avoided at all costs.

carthage
Newguy will make points and Fated will never respond, say he never conceded to anything and exit the thread.

I have no faith whatsoever that he will even win this debate, in spite of Tiin's lack of showings.

Emperordmb
This should be a good debate. Good luck Fated! I believe in you my droogie!

The Merchant
Bane dies.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
If you're done making comments about my "supposed" mood disorder that you and Ant think i have, then let me know and start this. I was not at all aggressive with you during our little scuffle in the Dooku V Satele thread. Refrain yourself from insinuating such things, it's offensive. I haven't offended you in the slightest kiddo erm
The amount of hurt feelings on this forum is nowhere near called for.

carthage
Originally posted by The Merchant
Bane dies.

thumb up

The Merchant
Tiin and Jinn would team-up to take down the Fodder of Legend that is Bane TBH.

ILS
Originally posted by The Merchant
Tiin and Jinn would team-up to take down the Fodder of Legend that is Bane TBH. thumb up Win via double penetration

carthage
Do you guys think Jaden Korr could take Jinn/Darth Bane/Saesee Tiin??

The Merchant
Yeah, he beat Dark-siders on Nexus and a Ragnos with his scepter that had a bunch of DS energies while on Korriban possessing Tavion.

Dionysus
I remember when The Merchant used to be cool. Now he's just a troll. So sad. sad

The Merchant
I-I'm not cool anymore ;_;

Dionysus
No, I'm so, so sorry. *Breaks down sobbing*

The Merchant
WEEEEEEEHHH

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I haven't offended you in the slightest

Of course not, I'm me.

NewGuy01
This thread is turning out magnificently, if I may say so myself.

The Merchant
The Fodd'ari of legend has a good ring to it.

carthage
Fodd'ari lmfao

That's the greatest thing I've ever heard. Hahahaha

carthage
Originally posted by Dionysus
I remember when The Merchant used to be cool. Now he's just a troll. So sad. sad

Says the sock account.

Dionysus
Oh, my love, how I've missed you dearly.

The Merchant
Hoo r u Dionysus.

carthage
He's the Joker/Excalibur.

The Merchant
Not trying to be mean or anything, but I actually don't know who that is.

Dionysus
Idk. I've yet to find out.

Dionysus
Originally posted by The Merchant
Not trying to be mean or anything, but I actually don't know who that is. That's good. It means I can strike from the shadows.

Trocity
Let's get this party started, gentlemen.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01
This thread is turning out magnificently, if I may say so myself.

Yeah, glad to see we're showing those CV dudes that we are a tier above them...

Eh, not that it even matters, I'm guessing - what, half the users here from CV? lol

DarthAnt66
Lack of faith? He's going against Sasukedc. no expression

DarthAnt66
Oh yeah Sasukedc, how about that Revan debate? I accept your concession on it.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lack of faith? He's going against Sasukedc. no expression

To be fair, he hasn't debated anyone in a while iirc, meanwhile I've had practice and done debates against Bantha(say nothing Ant you too Jack), Joker and a few other people, So i got that going for me.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
To be fair, he hasn't debated anyone in a while iirc, meanwhile I've had practice and done debates against Bantha(say nothing Ant you too Jack), Joker and a few other people, So i got that going for me.
You aren't ready though... like, Bantha/Joker/Nova are nothing to the almighty Lord of the Flies. sad
Better yet, you are going into a debate with a character you really don't know anything about (Jinn).

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You aren't ready though... like, Bantha/Joker/Nova are nothing to the almighty Lord of the Flies. sad
Better yet, you are going into a debate with a character you really don't know anything about (Jinn).

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Not that i care really, this is just purely for fun. Also Jinn was one of my favorite characters even after i got into the EU, I know a few things about him.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Thanks for the vote of confidence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4n0F9R90F0 : This is us atm.

ILS
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah, glad to see we're showing those CV dudes that we are a tier above them... ......................

Can someone call an ambulance for my punctured lung?

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by ILS
......................

Can someone call an ambulance for my punctured lung?

lol, That was me being sarcastic dude.

Also what the hell? The debate hasn't even started and we already have 3 pages worth of off topic BS lmao.

Trocity
When people actually debate on here, it's quite good. CV threads are pretty shit, sometimes.

ILS
Oh my bad, I was just skimming. I was gonna say, CV goes as far as to get moderators involved when something like this happens in a personal debate thread :P

ILS
Originally posted by Trocity
When people actually debate on here, it's quite good. CV threads are pretty shit, sometimes. To be honest the majority of our tournaments/CaVs are pretty high quality in terms of the debate going on. Obviously comics is the board's strongest suit since that's what the site is focused towards, but there have been some okay SW debates. Emphasis on the "okay".

Trocity
Originally posted by ILS
To be honest the majority of our tournaments/CaVs are pretty high quality in terms of the debate going on. Obviously comics is the board's strongest suit since that's what the site is focused towards, but there have been some okay SW debates. Emphasis on the "okay".

Yes, some of the CaVs are quite good, especially depending on who the debaters are. And yeah, lots of the regular threads just devolve into fan boy wars, just trying to hype up their favorite character while lowballing the other one. That happens everywhere though of course lol

ILS
Originally posted by Trocity
Yes, some of the CaVs are quite good, especially depending on who the debaters are. And yeah, lots of the regular threads just devolve into fan boy wars, just trying to hype up their favorite character while lowballing the other one. That happens everywhere though of course lol Agreed lol

ILS
I'm in three right now, but after those clear up, sure.

Yeno, as long as this isn't just you trolling stick out tongue

DarthAnt66
CV sucks dick

Dionysus
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'll construct an opening post by tomorrow, lol

WildBantha88
So I guess there isn't going to be a debate here. Sad I was looking forward to it

Dionysus
Same. sad

Board Walker
I will enter this debate as the representative of Revan and Nihilus.

The debate is now between me, phate, and the third person

carthage
erm

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by WildBantha88
So I guess there isn't going to be a debate here. Sad I was looking forward to it

No worries, I'm positive NewGuy will respond when when he's ready, he has two weeks lol, besides, this is a good opportunity for me to gather quotes, no doubt that's what he's doing.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
no doubt that's what he's doing.
http://media.tumblr.com/9e3a2278f5c3332d9de652685a7a95cd/tumblr_inline_mmcqm45YR81qz4rgp.gif

Board Walker
I am preparing as well, preparing a plethora of high quality quotes.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Board Walker
I am preparing as well, preparing a plethora of high quality quotes.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Old-Spice-Guy-Head-Nod.gif

Nalaniel
You are studying. Aha.

Board Walker
Originally posted by Nalaniel
You are studying. Aha.

Indeed, I must make sure my oneness with Revan+Nihilus is in place for I will be debating against Phated and NewGuys.

Nalaniel
That's the right attitude! ^^

But that post was for Ant... ._.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nalaniel
You are studying. Aha.
thumb up Started at 1:15pm. Finished Math/Spanish by 1:45. From 1:45 to 4:45 I outlined the textbook for tomorrow's exam.
Just wrapped it up. At 5 I'm going to review all my notes once again until 7. Then I'll study for another test. big grin

Board Walker
How old are you?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Board Walker
How old are you?
HS Student.

Nephthys
He's 12.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
He's 12.
*turning 12. I am so intelligent I skipped like 4 grades. cool

Nephthys
I didn't know clown college had grades.

Board Walker
My goodness...I feel so ancient here.

Are the majority of the posters on this site in high school?

carthage
There is a poster named The Tempest who is 20 and a senior in high school

Nalaniel
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
thumb up Started at 1:15pm. Finished Math/Spanish by 1:45. From 1:45 to 4:45 I outlined the textbook for tomorrow's exam.
Just wrapped it up. At 5 I'm going to review all my notes once again until 7. Then I'll study for another test. big grin

Oh my god. I wish I was so diligent. T_T

But: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Board Walker
Are the majority of the posters on this site in high school?
Indeed. thumb up

sad

Nalaniel
I still like you. ^^

DarthAnt66
embarrasment

Nalaniel
Just kidding. I hate you from the bottom of my heart.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://media.tumblr.com/9e3a2278f5c3332d9de652685a7a95cd/tumblr_inline_mmcqm45YR81qz4rgp.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4636757/everything-is-proceeding-as-i-have-foreseen-o.gif

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nalaniel
Just kidding. I hate you from the bottom of my heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO-KR-14uXM&t=0m9s
I got to go though. 4 hours of torture await. sad

Board Walker
Well I think I have long out lived all the other posters that were a part of my cohort when I first joined KMC, I must be the only member that is 60+ years old left.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO-KR-14uXM&t=0m9s
I got to go though. 4 hours of torture await. sad

I hope your brain cells survive. ^^

Dionysus
Maybe NewGuy01 just pussed out.

DarthAnt66
Nah. He's probably just seeing how many TOF members are going to storm in, take a shit on him, high-five Fated, then leave.
It will ultimately make his stompage look all the better for his ego, hence why I suggest to stop trashtalking him like typical YouTube posters.

Sinious
Originally posted by Board Walker
Well I think I have long out lived all the other posters that were a part of my cohort when I first joined KMC, I must be the only member that is 60+ years old left.

I'm 63, marry me.

DarthAnt66
Bump.

Fated Xtasy
Hey NewGuy01, if you're a bit down on time, I can make the opening argument and then when you're free you can respond. This thread can't just be a bunch of weird convos lol

DarthAnt66
penis

Fated Xtasy
Lol alright just not today, I got RL stuff to do.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Hey NewGuy01, if you're a bit down on time, I can make the opening argument and then when you're free you can respond. This thread can't just be a bunch of weird convos lol

I was enjoying the weird convos...

Don't worry, I'll get around to it. The laziness this arse of mine can dish out does have limits, I assure you.



laughing



Haha, in all seriousness if I was looking to humiliate him I wouldn't have chosen Saesee Tiin. I really just want this Saesee (obsession?) that has been recently adopted to be squarely addressed and dealt with tbh.

I'd probably be more ambitious in that Revan vs Anakin debate, which still tempts me, but again I know from experiences how pointlessly those tend to turn out. laughing out loud

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://media.tumblr.com/9e3a2278f5c3332d9de652685a7a95cd/tumblr_inline_mmcqm45YR81qz4rgp.gif

Lol, this made my day.

DarthAnt66
Bump.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bump.

Why bump a thread that was posted on less than a day earlier?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bump.

ILS
I'm genuinely interested in seeing this play out.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by ILS
I'm genuinely interested in seeing this play out.

Give him time, he'll respond when he can. Besides the suspense is great lol.

DarthAnt66
Sas has 5 days to respond before the automatic 2-week concession.

DarthAnt66
Just realized this topic has 92 posts of spam.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Just realized this topic has 92 posts of spam.

I know. It's hilarious.

Also know about the five day thing, though I thought it was six.

Dionysus
Lmfao

Dionysus
Xtasy should not be underestimated.

DarthAnt66
Fated harnesses immense power, but lacks the purity of will to direct it.

DarthAnt66
Lol @ 100 spam posts.

NewGuy01
Keep that fire going, Ant. We need moah.

NewGuy01
Y'can't bait me bro. I was unwittingly granted two weeks of deferment and I intend to milk it for all it's worth.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Dionysus
Xtasy should not be underestimated.

Aw, thank you for the compliment baby boo love

DarthAnt66
I complimented you too.

Dionysus
I want to drink your tears.

DarthAnt66
I want to drink something else of yours. wink

NewGuy01
When r u guys gonna stop trying to drink my bodily secretions?

DarthAnt66
Not you, loser.

NewGuy01
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Dionysus
I'm so glad I found such a manly man like Ant. It's almost too good to be true.

DarthAnt66
I'm sexy and you know it.

Nephthys
Qui-Gon imo.

carthage
thumb up

Nalaniel
Originally posted by Dionysus
I'm so glad I found such a manly man like Ant.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

DarthAnt66
4 days left.

DarthAnt66
3

DarthAnt66
2

DarthAnt66
1

DarthAnt66
Revan!

carthage
Newguy's points in this discussion have truly been spot on

NewGuy01
Ikr? Not sure how anyone could feasibly side with Jinn at this point.

Fated Xtasy
Hello forum, so seeing as how all of us will be celebrating with our families tomorrow I don't think my opponent and I will be able to work on our argument and our counters until the a certain date, so i've decided to give myself and my opponent an extra week to respond. That said, I will try and make the opening argument today, just to get the whole thing rolling. Thanks for reading and have a good day.

DarthAnt66
Sasukedc doesn't celebrate Thanksgiving with family. He's an outcast. A rebel. The debate will continue as planned!

Fated Xtasy
Alright, so here is my Analysis on the fight.

Qui-Gon Jinn is an excellent duelist and Jedi master, by the time of TPM he had already defeated his apprentice Xanatos and showcased his physical strength many times. His excellent skill with the blade allowed him to continuously put up a fight against the powerful and highly skilled, Darth Maul - keep in mind that, the Jedi master was past his prime and his preferred choice of form was the more physically demanding Ataru, not to mention Maul was much younger than him, so the fact that he was able to take on Maul for so long, while Kenobi was being knocked off and caught off guard multiple times, is quite impressive. In short; Qui-Gon is highly talented with the blade and what he lacks in agility he makes for with massive levels endurance and stamina, something, I don't think we've seen from Saesee Tiin.

Edit: (apologies for the shortness of the response, i did not have much time for a full blown analysis )

The Merchant
Originally posted by The Merchant
WEEEEEEEHHH

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Alright, so here is my Analysis on the fight.

Qui-Gon Jinn is an excellent duelist and Jedi master, by the time of TPM he had already defeated his apprentice Xanatos and showcased his physical strength many times. His excellent skill with the blade allowed him to continuously put up a fight against the powerful and highly skilled, Darth Maul - keep in mind that, the Jedi master was past his prime and his preferred choice of form was the more physically demanding Ataru, not to mention Maul was much younger than him, so the fact that he was able to take on Maul for so long, while Kenobi was being knocked off and caught off guard multiple times, is quite impressive. In short; Qui-Gon is highly talented with the blade and what he lacks in agility he makes for with massive levels endurance and stamina, something, I don't think we've seen from Saesee Tiin.

Edit: (apologies for the shortness of the response, i did not have much time for a full blown analysis )
yas bae yas.

NewGuy01
As is Saesee Tiin.

"In addition to being a skilled, courageous master of the lightsaber, he was also a very capable starfighter pilot."

-Source: starwars.com databanks

"Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine."

-Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

'Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself."'

-Source: Revenge of the Sith



He indeed has, but I wouldn't be so confident that he has Tiin beat here. Strength is, after all, Saesee's primary attribute.

Saesee: "My strength has never failed me."
Mace: "You can't smash your way through the entire droid army..."
Saesee: "Watch me."

-Taken from Heavy Metal Jedi

Feats originating from comic strips or clips from the Star Wars: Clone Wars miniseries are-for the sake of debate-not permitted because of the material's exaggerated portrayal of Jedi's abilities. In spite of this fact, I would like to point out that in all of his portrayals in this series he demonstrates using his immense physical strength to overwhelm his assailants as his go-to tactic, ranging from smashing droids to stopping moving speeders. So take that as you will, moving on.

Saesee is able to comfortably deflect fire from a dozen armed pirates while holding a grown man under his arm:

"The two judicials who had fought beside Tiin were wounded. The Iktotchi carried one of them under his left arm, while he continued to divert bolts with the lightsaber clutched in his right hand."

-Source: Cloak of Deception

And here, most impressively, Mace heavily implies that between them Saesee is stronger, and he the faster:

Mace: "Don't worry. We still have your strength. And my speed."

-Taken from Heavy Metal Jedi

This is especially meaningful considering Mace's own feats of strength are more than impressive.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111137054/4058450-hghfhfgh.gif
-Source: TCW S6 (Credit to Marco)



While this is true to a point, I would like to make it clear that Maul is a decisive tier ahead of Qui-Gon in dueling skill.

For starters, let's take a look at their first fight. Maul's performance is hindered by a broken ankle throwing off his balance, and while Qui-Gon is initially able to match him, he is regardless on the verge of defeat when he is rescued:

"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best. This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side. I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing him that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him."
-----
"I feel a savage pleasure course through me. His weakness feeds my power. I drive him back, spin around when he parries, drive him back again."

-Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Taking a look at their second battle, the combined skills of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are no match. Maul easily repels their attacks and only feigns being pressed throughout the duel:

"Rapidly spinning his lightsaber blade, he anticipated their moves with ease. Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them."
-----
"Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you. Maul sensed the laser doors opening behind him. Qui-Gon was unrelenting in his ongoing attack, but Maul parried every blow. Qui-Gon swung at Maul's legs, but the blade swept under his feet as Maul jumped backward. Maul continued moving back, leading Qui-Gon into the hallway. They passed the first four security barriers before the doors activated and shut."

-Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul (Credit to ILS)


"Obi-Wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened. Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate."

-Source: The Phantom Menace novelization

After his death:

"He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily."

Source: The Phantom Menace novelization



I'm not sure how this is relevant here. We're discussing Qui-Gon as we've seen him--that is, as he appeared in The Phantom Menace.



You claim it's impressive that Qui-Gon can participate in an extended duel despite his demanding fighting style and increasing age. As admirable as that may be, the fact that he is growing old and does adopt a highly demanding lightsaber form is an inherent disadvantage--In both of his duels with Maul, these two facts have proven to be his downfall. It could be said for him that he can stave off his fatigue well, but I find it to be a highly unlikely notion that Qui-Gon is going to outlast Tiin in this contest.

You've spoken your peace in regards to Qui-Gon's strengths, allow me to shed some light on Saesee's. In addition to being a master swordsman, he is one of the Order's greatest masters of the Force:

"Saesee's flying practice also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi."

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #114 (Credit to Silver)

You've already acknowledged Saesee's telekinetic ability in the past, so with that in mind, let's move on to one of Saesee's greatest, but less acknowledged talents with the Force: Telepathy. In the past this ability has been underappreciated due to the belief that it lacks combat applications, but I would like to dismiss this notion. Here, Saesee describes some of the advantages of telepaths in the Great Holocron:

"In combat, telepaths do have a distinct edge. Even if one fights by instinct and reflex, most cannot stop themselves from emitting monosyllabic thoughts that project their next movement. During my training bouts at the Jedi Temple, my opponents unwittingly revealed their every move, allowing me that crucial fraction of a moment that enabled me to be the one who would remain standing."
-----
"He showed me how to use the Force to isolate my own brain waves, intercept stray thoughts, and screen dozens of minds at once. How to whisper across space, yell without noise, keep secrets, and sift through layer of lies and buried memories to uncover the truth."

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (Credit to Silver)

Here, in what may be the most relevant demonstration of his telepathic abilities, Saesee is able to probe Qui-Gon's mind and detect him lying to Yaddle:

'"I'm not worried, Masters," Obi-Wan said good-naturedly. "I'm only thinking forward." He waited for Qui-Gon to offer some piece of wisdom regarding the living Force, but for once his Master kept silent.
"Right you are to think forward, Padawan," Yaddle told him. "Deal lightly with matters of consequence, and decisively with those of little consequence. Difficult it is to face a crisis and solve it gently, if not resolved beforehand you are, for uncertainty will impede your efforts. When comes the time, thinking forward allows you to deal lightly."
Her big eyes shifted to favor Qui-Gon. "Agree do you, Qui-Gon?"
He bowed his head. "As you say, Master."
Diagonally across the table from Yaddle, Saesee Tiin glanced up and smiled, as if reading Qui-Gon's thoughts.'

-Source: Cloak of Deception

To sum things up, in regards to comparison with Qui-Gon, Saesee Tiin is comparably skilled, stronger, a more powerful telekinetic, and his ability to telepathically read his opponent's moves before they happen gives him a distinct advantage. IMO He should be able to bag 5 or 6 wins out of 10, here.

Phew, that took longer than I had expected. Sorry for making it so long, I may have gotten a little carried away. G'luck. big grin

Dionysus
Sas strikes like a viper.

DarthAnt66
thumb up A deadly one, too.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01
As is Saesee Tiin.

lol i really dislike doing this, but Jinn has accolades that mirrors - and perhaps surpass Saesee tiins own.

A Jedi Master who was known as one of the Order's most formidable members, but his recklessness and his devotion to bizarre causes kept him from becoming a member of the Jedi Council.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

--------

Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

--------

Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable.

Source: Jedi Academy: Training Manual

again, i dislike using the sparring match, but the fact that many of Anoon's peers considered him to be of "unmatched combat prowess" and yet he considers himself inferior to Jinn and Mace does say something.



Jinn has knocked Darth Maul down with a single strike, forcing him to lose his Balance and fall.

On the screen, Anakin watched Qui-Gon Jinn step back, level his lightsaber, and swing a powerful, two-handed blow at his attacker. The horned man blocked it, but only barely, and in the process lost his balance completely. The blow's force swept him away, clear of the ramp and off into space.
Source: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Novelization



Do you have the source/scan/excerpt for this?



That's impressive, yet through martial prowess, Jinn was able to send a man flying with enough force to crack a wall.

Link: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3786023-7769385361-37526.jpg



That's a nice accolade. and it's impressive, yet most people tend to take Mace's praise as him "just being humble", I don't know what you believe, but it's impressive nonetheless



Yet in the very same book, Maul states the following:

I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements. But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike. Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul



Yet in the TPM Novelization it states the following:

It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Source: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace: Novelization.




Except this opponent came to as a surprise, as no one had faced a sith in years. No to mention that Maul was considered to be an already powerful force to be reckoned with during the events of TPM and before that




Except, the second time he had Maul completely on the defensive and only tired due to him fighting the majority of the fight alone while Obi-Wan has dispatched with ease.



Maybe, maybe not, I've yet to see any feats of Endurance or Stamina from Tiin.



An impressive accolade, yet, i'd like to point out that while impressive, his other peers - Shaak Ti, Plo Koon and Ki-Adi, vastly outstrip him in force prowess, yet they don't have such an impressive accolade. However, in comparison to Jinn, that is impressive.




Except, it's no secret that Qui-Gon disagrees with the council, his ways are the reason that he was kept from becoming a Council member.



A more powerful Telekinetic? maybe, Stronger? it's debatable(like I am doing now) Comparably skilled? In my opinion, Jinn is a Tier above Tiin and actually, I think Jinn would take 7 or 8 wins, maybe less.



No worries dude, I enjoyed reading through it, you made a lot of good points. Good luck to you Sasu, I look forward to your response smile

NewGuy01
I agree.



And it's for this very reason that I find Saesee's sparring match with Mace to be an impressive display of skill. While not quite the same as a real fight, we are shown that even very esteemed and talented swordsman such as Anoon Bondara are humbled before superior duelists such as Mace and Jinn. While Windu's spars with Bondara were all off-screen, we see this in effect with Quinlan Vos below:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4082229-8043655419-39280.png

Here we are shown Mace comfortably warding off and landing blows on his partner, an esteemed Ataru master with a plethora of accomplishments to his name. Contrast this to his spar with Saesee below:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11118/111186862/4184630-2206972-new_picture__2_.jpg

Take it as you will, but Saesee having the ability necessary to square off with Mace on even ground--as opposed to impressive figures like Quinlan and Anoon--solidifies his prestige as one of the Order's top swordsmen imo.



I do.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2206989-new_picture__19_.jpg

(Saesee is tied to the speeder)



I would disagree with that notion, yes. The way he worded it, and the context, doesn't support such an inference. He wasn't going out of his way to praise Saesee, he was stating the facts concerning their situation. Were he truly just being "humble" he wouldn't have mentioned his own superior speed.



I am aware, the intent of my post was to point out that the quote you've provided concerning their first duel is selective. Yes, Qui-Gon is initially able to match Maul; but as you said, in the very same passage, Maul realizes that his wound was impacting his balance and that he was in fact not at his best. From there, Qui-Gon falters from fatigue and Maul is decisively overwhelming him regardless.



I'm not convinced stamina is relevant, much less in favor of Jinn. I've never seen Saesee falter from fatigue. I've seen Qui-Gon killed because of it.
-----
Endurance? As far as durability goes, Saesee Tiin wears a set of plastoid armor, which can't hurt. He also mentioned in the Great Holocron that he can isolate his own brain waves:

"He showed me how to use the Force to isolate my own brain waves"

-Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

TBH I'm not completely positive what isolating one's brain waves would entail, but having studied brain waves I would infer that it would allow him to manually control his internal/mental state, a similar concept to homeostasis. Keep in mind I may be entirely incorrect on that point, though.



I disagree. Nothing Plo Koon or Ki-Adi Mundi {have or has?} done with the Force "vastly" outstrips Saesee. erm He's the best telepath of the three, (Though Koon is a close contender) and is at least comparable as a telekinetic.



FYI, Shaak Ti's prowess with the Force was stated to be 'legendary':

"Shaak Ti is a master of the Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!"

-Source: The Clone Wars Adventures



thumb up That's what counts, here.



The fact that you think Saesee could potentially take 3+ wins against Qui-Gon means I'm making progress, which is encouraging--It means I'm doing my job. wink

Note: I noticed you failed to respond to Saesee's telepathic combat application(s). While I digress they aren't by any means a game-changing ace in the hole for Tiin, I think it's a prominent enough advantage to be taken into consideration.

Sorry in advance btw, this one wasn't as thorough as the last, I'm a little short on time at the moment--but wanted to get another post out there.

§|gn
Originally posted by Dionysus
That's good. It means I can strike from the shadows.

Actually, that is more my MO. smokin'

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01




And it's for this very reason that I find Saesee's sparring match with Mace to be an impressive display of skill. While not quite the same as a real fight, we are shown that even very esteemed and talented swordsman such as Anoon Bondara are humbled before superior duelists such as Mace and Jinn. While Windu's spars with Bondara were all off-screen, we see this in effect with Quinlan Vos below:


Take it as you will, but Saesee having the ability necessary to square off with Mace on even ground--as opposed to impressive figures like Quinlan and Anoon--solidifies his prestige as one of the Order's top swordsmen imo.

Like I said before, in sparring matches - this coming from someone who has done several kinds of martial arts blah blah i hate talking about me, but, both combatants are holding back tremendously so as to not actually hurt one another, so while you could argue that keeping pace with someone in a practice duel is impressive, both Combatants would obviously be limited in such a confrontation. This also applies to Anoon's quote of sparring with Mace and Jinn, however the difference between these two instances is that, Anoon has accolades calling him a person of unrivaled prowess, yet he himself considers himself to be inferior to Mace and Jinn. comparing the two as if they were peers. While Tiin merely has that sparring match. In short, The sparring matches between jinn and Anoon means little, it is what He thinks, that I was trying show with that quote, the fact that Jinn is superior to him, despite the fact that his peers praise him as a duelist



Well, I'll be damned, impressive.



Well, I have a feeling Billaba will impress you once I'm done with my thread. But while we're on the subject of Speed. Jinn has moved faster than Obi-Wan and has some more feats in speed than Tiin has iirc.



I see, still, the fact that a man passed his prime could "send shudders" through his much younger opponents body, is a show of raw strength and as I stated before, Jinn complete knocked Maul down through sheer strength, both in their fight on Tatooine and in the Naboo battle.



Except, Jinn has held his own against much younger opponents like Xanatos and of course Darth Maul, with Jinn basically fighting Maul alone for the entire duration of their clash



That armor seemed to have done nothing against the strike of a lightsaber.



Ki-Adi lifting that giant ship, Koon collapsing a cave alone are a bit more significant imo



Pfft, I was the one who found that quote, but what i mean't by that was, Ki Adi, Koon and Shaak Ti don't have accolades that specifically state that they are one of the best force users, yet they have incredible feats with the force.




Tiin is a powerful Jedi, yes. But his hype isn't comparable to his actual feats, granted this is due to limited showings, but i still don't see him as someone that impressive.



Actually I did, but i sort of failed lol. here's what I said:



Pardon me for this, but, such an ability was useless against Sidious - granted Sheev was a stronger and more powerful sith than Maul, however in that fight, Tiin's Telepathy failed to work. it's a nice ability, but one has failed him, unless there's a source that showcases him using that ability to a great degree.

check my post again, I kinda failed there, sorry.

Anyway, I just wanted to get a response in before you go back to school or something, Sorry if it seems disorganized, I've been working on the Billaba thread since like 4:00 Pm lol.

Good luck Sas stick out tongue

DarthAnt66
http://newsdaytonabeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/raw-meat.jpg

Fated Xtasy
Darthant66, Newguy01 and I are actually debating in this thread, the little random moments this thread had before our debate began were tolerated, but right now you are adding absolutely nothing to a debate that is between NewGuy01 and myself as I stated in the Original post. You may only comment onwhich character you think will win nothing else. Refrain from derailing the thread, please and thank you.

DarthAnt66
Nah, my post was in reference to the debate. NewGuy01 knows what I'm referring to. The only thing derailing the thread is you making a post about derailing the thread, because then I have to make a post saying I'm not derailing the thread, and rather contributing to it in a cryptic yet humorous fashion. stick out tongue Regardless, Jinn wins this. Disappointed in Sasukedc for going with Tiin. Good luck to both of you. smile

NewGuy01

Emperordmb
Didn't Tiin only wear that plastoid armor when on space missions?

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Didn't Tiin only wear that plastoid armor when on space missions?

I think he had more than one kind, but regardless it's not going to actually impede a lightsaber blow, I was joking. That said, Qui-Gon's abs aren't going to do any better.

DarthAnt66
Sasukedc, when are you going on TOR? You only have a day left of the XP boost... messed

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I would be reluctant to assume real-life human realities translate into the realities of fictional superhuman mystics with laser swords. Refer to the below.

"To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play."

-Source: The Cestus Deception

That very quote proves my point, a sparring match is "enjoyable" hell, Mace And Tiin were having a full blown conversation.



Accept that. Tiin and Mace were having a conversation and Vos was taken aback by a force push



love



Yes, actually. by the time you see this response it'll be posted and trust me, when Mace praises her, its not him being humble. wink



While Jinn has moved in a blur and disarmed a man all before anyone could "take a breath", not to mention he keeps pace with a Kudana(while moving faster than Obi-Wan) and then there's this(yay speed feat for TPM Obi-Wan)

The energy bars retracted. The guards rushed forward. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan activated their lightsabers simultaneously and leaped toward them. Blaster fire pinged around them, and they deflected it, swinging in a blur of motion faster than the eye could follow.

Source: Jedi Apprentice: The Day of Reckoning



The point is, Qui-Gon despite being much older, was able to keep up with the much younger and more energetic Darth Maul, while Obi-Wan, who was like wise, much younger and more energetic, was easily dispatched of.



lol



Doesn't that fight take place five months after Geonesis? Weren't most of Maces feats in TCW done a couple of months before ROTS?



True enough.



How is his blade dipping mean that he got mind-wrecked by Sidious?



In a passive way, would the Situation not change in combat?

Sorry for the shortness of the response, my PC is dying atm.

Credit to ShootingNova for all of the Quotes, excerpts and scans.

DarthAnt66
Looks like the debate is coming to an end.

NewGuy01
Probably. Debates with characters like these rarely last long, and the result will likely be inconclusive. Regardless, I think for the most part it's been a good run--I've more or less done what I came to do, at least.

Expect a reply later this afternoon, Xtasy. It's a little tougher now that I don't have access to my desktop, but my Ipad will suffice.

NewGuy01
Kenobi and Ventress have full blown conversations when they fight, and so do many others.



Not sure if this means you agree or no...




Did you even look at the scan I posted? Because I have a feeling you didn't.

Just because I'm a virtuous and kind soul, I'll post it for you again:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4082229-8043655419-39280.jpg



Are we agreed that Saesee is Qui-Gon's equal/superior in terms of strength? http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif



Even though I'm not being serious about the whole armor fiasco--that part wasn't a joke. He really wasn't wearing it that day. confused



1.) No, the Battle of Ryloth is less than a year after Geonosis, and that's where all of Mace's best TK feats are at.

2.) Is there any evidence at all to support Mace becoming a significantly more powerful Force User over the course of the war?



wink



You're right, that was only what I garnered from the scene. To me it seemed like subtle, but intentional hint from the author that *something* had happened to him.

Either way, the only other explanation is that he let his guard down, and that's why he lets his blade fall, which is just as well.



I wouldn't think so. Instead of fully probing his mind, Saesee only needs to catch stray monosyllabic thoughts that are unconsciously produced by even those who fight purely on reflex.



Heh, no problem. I'm replying from a mobile device, so mine's probably ended up even shorter.

Fated Xtasy
Yo Sasu, I'll respond later on today. I'm on a phone and there's some stuff I wanna link. Hope you have a good one. big grin

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kenobi and Ventress have full blown conversations when they fight, and so do many others.

Difference they're not talking about what they think a certain character's leadership.



I mean't to say "except that" embarrasment



I saw, but isn't that the same comic where Quinlan gets wrecked by mace with TK?



Except, Tiin hasn't broken through a sword - which are made of a cortosis weave(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3936565-image.jpg)

Nor did he send a man flying back into a Metal wall with enough force to literally break it(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3936546-image+%2813%29.jpg)


lol, he's rarely seen with it though, so - at least in my opinion, that wont come into play.



right right, sorry. I was just checking



3 years from ATOC to ROTS is quite a lot time no?



love



Also seeing as how in both occasions where he uses his Telepathy he has to focus(let down his guard) or is sitting and having a casual conversation. I doubt this will be that applicable in combat.



Yeah, that's a fair assessment, I would think



It may be a late response, but it's a response nonetheless stick out tongue

In closing. Jinn is much faster, possesses equal - if not superior strength and his skill with the blade allowed him to contend with maul for a long time and defeat Xanatos - this all accomplished despite the fact that he was not that suited to use Ataru and his more advanced age. Yet despite all these obstacles he was able to keep up with much younger and more energetic opponents.

NewGuy01
And... Why does this matter again?



Yep. Mace is startled to see Vos use a Vaapad maneuver and TKs him later on. I'm not sure why you brought it up, since it in no way diminishes my point.



Of course he hasn't, but that doesn't mean he couldn't. Qui-Gon hasn't stopped moving speeders either.

Also, proof that the sword was compromised of Cortosis?



That does not look like metal to me.




So?



Except that he literally tells us that he can and has used it in combat, and that it gives him a distinct edge against his fellow Jedi. erm



Not convinced. His speed feats are somewhat better, but not to the degree that you're trying to imply.

Besides, because of his traits as a telepath, Saesee's reaction times are quicker than Jinn's as well. I don't see speed being a definitive factor in the fight tbh.



Disagreed, but like the above they're close enough here that it's negligible anyways.



And Saesee's allowed him to contend with Mace. And as much as you can say about the validity of a sparring match, the comparison between Vos's and Saesee's performances remains fairly solid. Quinlan has plenty of high-tier saber feats by this point. Saesee's performance in sparring ring with Windu remains solidly better than his own. There's really not much getting around that.



You keep mentioning this as if these disadvantages wouldn't be present here as well. It's admirable, sure, but makes no difference to the fight itself.

Anyway, differences in their physical attributes appear to be more or less nil. What it really comes down to is Qui-Gon having greater finesse and Saesee having greater power. I still stand by the notion that they're give or take evenly matched.

DarthAnt66
Saying Jinn has the same physical strength as Tiin is lolworthy.

Nephthys
Why?

DarthAnt66
Because it's obviously false.

|King Joker|
lol

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