Beyonder vs LT

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Time Immemorial
Which version can compete with LT better.
1. Classic Beyonder
2. Pre Retcon Beyonder

Star428
What's the difference between the two? I thought they were one and the same.

Time Immemorial
Some say Pre Rec was stronger

pym-ftw
Between God & molecule man...

It's a pretty big difference.
Pre retcon & LT are nearly identical in power

One_Angry_Scot
Pre-Retcon destroys him. By classic are you speaking of Post-Retcon Beyonder?

Never heard that classification before.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Pre-Retcon destroys him. By classic are you speaking of Post-Retcon Beyonder?

Never heard that classification before.

Yea, Post was less powerful I know that.

So is Pre like another manifestation of TOAA? Because I don't get where his power is coming from. To be above LT.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Yea, Post was less powerful I know that.

So is Pre like another manifestation of TOAA? Because I don't get where his power is coming from. To be above LT.


He's definitely not a manifestation of TOAA. Just an extremely powerful being.


In his universe (the Beyond Realm) he was effectively God, and he found his way into 616 after Owen Reece accidentally opened up a portal.

There's no absolute explanation as to why he is that powerful I guess really. I could show you some scans if you wanted of when he came into contact with the Tribunal.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
He's definitely not a manifestation of TOAA. Just an extremely powerful being.


In his universe (the Beyond Realm) he was effectively God, and he found his way into 616 after Owen Reece accidentally opened up a portal.

There's no absolute explanation as to why he is that powerful I guess really. I could show you some scans if you wanted of when he came into contact with the Tribunal.

Thanks, post the ones you got if you can.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Thanks, post the ones you got if you can.

I'm at my nans house at the moment so I wont be able to send high quality images over but these should be fine.


Uatu pleads with Beyonder stating that he has tried to get the mighty to speak with him.

http://i.imgur.com/GQWHyiH.jpg

Then this is what happened afterwards.

http://i.imgur.com/x5LXMlN.jpg

We find out that Beyonder is stronger than everyone in that room put together.

As we see it's plainly obvious to everyone in that room that Death is about to be killed. But they are powerless to stop the Beyonder.

Time Immemorial
Who is that dude offering the cup to death?

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Who is that dude offering the cup to death?

As far as I know he was just called Dave.

Time Immemorial
Thanks for the scans. Beyonder is badass. I would be interested to see the high qualty scans, to see some more when you have time.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Thanks for the scans. Beyonder is badass. I would be interested to see the high qualty scans, to see some more when you have time.

Yeah when I get home I'll have a look on my external HDD and send you some images.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Yeah when I get home I'll have a look on my external HDD and send you some images.

It would have been cool to just see him erase some of those eternals like they were ants.

"Bye! Nice knowing you, or not!"

Mr Master
Originally posted by Time Immemorial


So is Pre like another manifestation of TOAA?

Because I don't get where his power is coming from. To be above LT.
Classic and Pre-retcon Beyonder, are the same thing.

"Post" retcon Beyonder is the differnece.

Anyway, the Beyonder was created by Jim Shooter, who not only wrote SWI & II,
but was also the Editor in Chief of Marvel. This means, he was truly TOAA!
There were rumors that ol' Jimmy simply symbolized his own 'god complex' in Marvel on panel via the Beyonder lol.
It was no secret that many writers/artists and staff were displeased with Shooter's exaggerations,
like going as far as to say that Beyonder was "like God before Genesis." ouch,
or seemingly portraying Stan Lee bowing to the Beyonder on panel, etc.

Yet there is no doubt, classic Beyonder was/is the most powerful entitity ever in Mavrel.

'millionS of times more powerful than the rest of Marvel combined.' (LT included)

Board Walker
LT has been killed, LT is by no means top tier in marvel.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Mr Master
Classic and Pre-retcon Beyonder, are the same thing.

"Post" retcon Beyonder is the differnece.

Anyway, the Beyonder was created by Jim Shooter, who not only wrote SWI & II,
but was also the Editor in Chief of Marvel. This means, he was truly TOAA!
There were rumors that ol' Jimmy simply symbolized his own 'god complex' in Marvel on panel via the Beyonder lol.
It was no secret that many writers/artists and staff were displeased with Shooter's exaggerations,
like going as far as to say that Beyonder was "like God before Genesis." ouch,
or seemingly portraying Stan Lee bowing to the Beyonder on panel, etc.

Yet there is no doubt, classic Beyonder was/is the most powerful entitity ever in Mavrel.

'millionS of times more powerful than the rest of Marvel combined.' (LT included)

This makes a lot of sense, because he was the actually the TOAA of his "Beyond Universe" and his feats clearly equal and rival TOAA of 616.

The part that makes me see him right below TOAA in 616 is that he had to give up some of his power to kill death. TOAA would be un effected by this. And the fact that Doom stole his powers once.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Board Walker
LT has been killed, LT is by no means top tier in marvel.

We don't even know who/what killed him yet. So making assumptions on his power isn't a valid notion to entertain.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
We don't even know who/what killed him yet. So making assumptions on his power isn't a valid notion to entertain.

Wasn't it Thanos with HOTU?

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Wasn't it Thanos with HOTU?

Nope that wasn't the same series.

Thanos did absorb him though.

Board Walker
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
We don't even know who/what killed him yet. So making assumptions on his power isn't a valid notion to entertain.

It is entirely valid as it demonstrates he isn't the top tier being, as we know objectively that there are entities aside from TOAA who are above the LT.

LT is far more likely in the high skyfather rangem or abstract range.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Board Walker
It is entirely valid as it demonstrates he isn't the top tier being, as we know objectively that there are entities aside from TOAA who are above the LT.

LT is far more likely in the high skyfather rangem or abstract range.

I disagree.

You have to show who killed him.

Can you tell me who killed him? You can't so for the mean time there is no point saying he is a certain level when we have no idea what happened.

For all we know it could be Rabum Alal which possibly is Pre-Retcon Beyonder. Which would make sense.

theTANTALIZER
PR Beyonder without being curious. He just straightout erases the multiverse with a thought.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by theTANTALIZER
PR Beyonder without being curious. He just straightout erases the multiverse with a thought.

Makes sense sense he is TOAA equivalent of his verse.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Board Walker

It is entirely valid as it demonstrates he isn't the top tier being,
as we know objectively that there are entities aside from TOAA who are above the LT.
It doesn't "validate" anything imo, since we have no idea what happened in that scene, if that's even the LT at all.

The LT was depicted just fine by Starlin not too long ago chatting with Thanos after the Hickman scenario, so ....
Originally posted by Board Walker

LT is far more likely in the high skyfather rangem or abstract range.
That's kinda silly don't ya think?

Anywho ... As for the latest On Panel depiction of the cosmic hierarchy:

http://s3d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/21042705_Cosmic_Hierarchy_2014.jpg

It's still basically the same since 1985 ... and the Living Tribunal is still the top dog. smile

cdtm
It's pretty bad when a writer doesn't even try a halfassed "It was a Skrull" explanation.

I mean, if you realize you should never have written something, at least own up to it, instead of just ignoring it and hoping everyone forgets it ever happened. evil face

Angel Watching
Retcon Beyonder may be a little lower than LT. But Classic Beyonder is way above LT.

BeyonderGod
Beyonder was literally stated and even mentioned to be above LT so this is a pure old fashion stomp.

zom1967
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Beyonder was literally stated and even mentioned to be above LT so this is a pure old fashion stomp. I have just about every appearance of the Beyonder.from sw1,2,and even the one off three.I hate to say this,but in the mid to late 80`s he made the Tribunal his wench,and every other cosmic for that matter.And guess what,he`s coming back in 2015.And I bet he will have his original bad ass power back!

complexbrother
Classic Beyonder wins easily

Prof. T.C McAbe
LT has also become more powerful.
Classic Beyonder was Multiversal or maybe above it. LT is omniversal and has Megaverses in his hand or whatever. He is more powerful than his former Multiversal self, like Beyonder later was weaker than his previous self.

So LT for the win, till we learn who or what killed him.

zom1967
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
LT has also become more powerful.
Classic Beyonder was Multiversal or maybe above it. LT is omniversal and has Megaverses in his hand or whatever. He is more powerful than his former Multiversal self, like Beyonder later was weaker than his previous self.

So LT for the win, till we learn who or what killed him. how did L.T get more powerful?Classic Beyonder clearly destroy`s him!

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by zom1967
how did L.T get more powerful?Classic Beyonder clearly destroy`s him!

Easy. LT during the time of classic beyonder operated on Multiversal scale, because Marvel was just a Multiverse. Beyonder came from, well Beyond. Later the Multiverse was just a part of an Megaverse and that of an Omniverse and this is the new scale where LT operated. Hence he is more powerful now than before.

zom1967
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Easy. LT during the time of classic beyonder operated on Multiversal scale, because Marvel was just a Multiverse. Beyonder came from, well Beyond. Later the Multiverse was just a part of an Megaverse and that of an Omniverse and this is the new scale where LT operated. Hence he is more powerful now than before. Is that just your opinion,or did the one above all give him more authority?

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by zom1967
Is that just your opinion,or did the one above all give him more authority?

It's logic. TOAA is just the writer/staff at Marvel, they expanded their Universe, made it bigger.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
It's logic. TOAA is just the writer/staff at Marvel, they expanded their Universe, made it bigger.

Actually false.....
Beyonder realm is beyond time,space, and all realities and is a total omnilock away from LT/TOAA he basically has no authority over the beyond realm as Beyonder is still absolute in the multiverse and which beyonder realm is a technical larger...x3 then the marvel multiverse place the fact both are infinitely larger and by this logic

Beyond Realm>>>>Marvel Multiverse

Beyonder (Pre-Retcon) >xInfinity The Living Tribunal
Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)=The One Above All

big grin

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Actually false.....
Beyonder realm is beyond time,space, and all realities and is a total omnilock away from LT/TOAA he basically has no authority over the beyond realm as Beyonder is still absolute in the multiverse and which beyonder realm is a technical larger...x3 then the marvel multiverse place the fact both are infinitely larger and by this logic

Beyond Realm>>>>Marvel Multiverse

Beyonder (Pre-Retcon) >xInfinity The Living Tribunal
Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)=The One Above All

big grin

No.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

LT during the time of classic beyonder operated on Multiversal scale, because Marvel was just a Multiverse.

Omniverse and this is the new scale where LT operated.

Hence he is more powerful now than before.
The LT has always been the same LT of always.
There is no evidence of any kind even via allusion that concretely suggests the LT was upgraded in "power."

The LT operated on a "multiversal" scale back in 84-85' cause as you pointed out,
that was all of "canon" Marvel at the time.
But,
this doesn't take away from the fact
that the LT was the most powerful entity in all canon Marvel likewise. (excluding 84-85 Owen)

It's not Beyonder's fault he was retconned before the Marvel cosmic territory expanded.

That aside, it really doesn't matter anyway. smile

Because Eternity-Infinity's consciousness only extends across the prime trans-infinite Multiverse. (one multiverse)

This means ... I'd say 99% of all power in Marvel
is concentrated in this single multiverse which houses the 616 universe.
Which is almost an indentical copy of the Prime infinite multiverse of 1985.

Yes ... there are NO sentient universes (Eternity-Infinity) outside this single multiverse.

In truth, after years of after thought,
I don't even know how the "Brothers" (so called megaverses) fit into Marvel cosmology anymore.
Then again, after all, these Marvel/DC Brothers were meant to be retconned
as being below the LT and Spectre in Adventures of the X-Men,
and this project was assited and approved by Mike Carlin who's name appears in the credits.

It could be, that the LT's bio we all mis-interpreted it years ago,
and suppose,
that the Megaverses were Marvel and DC (Brothers)
and the Omniverse was the greater beyond. (other companies)
In fact, the LT's bio doesn't really appoint the "omniverse" solely to Marvel.

It was the 2007 bios that did that.

So, imo, again, perhaps the LT's bio was referring to the "megaverseS" that were Marvel and DC at the time, (2005 bios literally state this)
and the LT fashioned them in his hand, and Spectre was in cahoots with LT in this project.
This would put both the LT and Spectre above all of Marvel and DC,
since the BrotherS represented both companies supposedly.
Interestingly enough, the LT and Spectre almost obliterated both Brothers in the orginal DC vs Marvel garbage, hmm, funny.

At some point, this entire understanding was just ... forgotten/dismissed,
because again, the 2007 bios and beyond associate Marvel with its own "omniverse."

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT has always been the same LT of always.
There is no evidence of any kind even via allusion that concretely suggests the LT was upgraded in "power."


The scale of the MU became bigger and he grows with it. That's normal, that comics evolve.

Originally posted by Mr Master

The LT operated on a "multiversal" scale back in 84-85' cause as you pointed out,
that was all of "canon" Marvel at the time.
But,
this doesn't take away from the fact
that the LT was the most powerful entity in all canon Marvel likewise. (excluding 84-85 Owen)

It's not Beyonder's fault he was retconned before the Marvel cosmic territory expanded.


So he was Multiversal back than, like Beyonder was Multiversal+. And the recton happened because Beyonder is still a part of the whole MU (Marvel Comics that is). It's not his fault is not a valid argument tbh, no offense. The territory was expanded, the true power of the beyonder was shown and it was smaller than the combined new territory.

Originally posted by Mr Master

That aside, it really doesn't matter anyway. smile

Because Eternity-Infinity's consciousness only extends across the prime trans-infinite Multiverse. (one multiverse)

This means ... I'd say 99% of all power in Marvel
is concentrated in this single multiverse which houses the 616 universe.
Which is almost an indentical copy of the Prime infinite multiverse of 1985.

Yes ... there are NO sentient universes (Eternity-Infinity) outside this single multiverse.

It matters. The Universal concepts changed, became bigger, got more important or less important roles. With new territory comes new responsibility.
We don't know the rest of the infinite 99% of the MU, it can change with a new writer, we might get more insights, so I disagree with your point.


Originally posted by Mr Master

In truth, after years of after thought,
I don't even know how the "Brothers" (so called megaverses) fit into Marvel cosmology anymore.
Then again, after all, these Marvel/DC Brothers were meant to be retconned
as being below the LT and Spectre in Adventures of the X-Men,
and this project was assited and approved by Mike Carlin who's name appears in the credits.

The brothers from the crossover are differen't from those in the X-Men comic. The Marvel Brothers are created by marvel, the crossover brothers by both companies, an hence only both companies have the "right" to recton them. apart from this, the brothers even look different, it is more like an experiment of LT from his past experience of the crossover instead of your implied real brothers being created by Spectre and LT.
Last but not least, the Brothers are not canon as far as i know, not the Marvel brothers, i mean the real deal, the stronger than Spectre and LT Brothers from DC AND Marvel.

Originally posted by Mr Master

It could be, that the LT's bio we all mis-interpreted it years ago,
and suppose,
that the Megaverses were Marvel and DC (Brothers)
and the Omniverse was the greater beyond. (other companies)
In fact, the LT's bio doesn't really appoint the "omniverse" solely to Marvel.

It was the 2007 bios that did that.

Marvel can appoint only things to Marvel tbh. The Ominverse, as oxymoronic as it sounds, from Marvel is a differen't one than that of DC or Valiant. Maybe there is someone dreaming about having the "authority" to decide what is a FACT for other companies but it will stay just a dream ^^.

DC is it's own Omniverse, like Marvel is it's own. The Brothers (Megaverses) are hence only in Marvel and not a part of DC, as they were created in a Marvel comic by Marvel. The real brothers as said are a one time shot and I don't think even canon.


Originally posted by Mr Master

So, imo, again, perhaps the LT's bio was referring to the "megaverseS" that were Marvel and DC at the time, (2005 bios literally state this)
and the LT fashioned them in his hand, and Spectre was in cahoots with LT in this project.
This would put both the LT and Spectre above all of Marvel and DC,
since the BrotherS represented both companies supposedly.
Interestingly enough, the LT and Spectre almost obliterated both Brothers in the orginal DC vs Marvel garbage, hmm, funny.

At some point, this entire understanding was just ... forgotten/dismissed,
because again, the 2007 bios and beyond associate Marvel with its own "omniverse."

I disagree with your opinion to 100% with the reasons I already named. But to each his own.
LT and Spectre just succeeded to stop the brothers for a time but never defeated them, and the brothers were not even paying attention but fighting each other, where we might assume most of their power was concentrated. Neither LT nor the Spectre had the power to kill/defeat them, it was obivious that they were below them.

But then again, I don't see this Spectre and this LT as canon.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
No.
Not really.......

You just mentioned the point of the brothers which was seriously non-canon pre/post versions.

Beyonder=TOAA.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

The scale of the MU became bigger and he grows with it. That's normal, that comics evolve.
The LT's prime resposibility is to the Prime Multiverse that houses the 616 Reality.

The LT may supposedly exist in all so called multiverses,
but go ahead and find a story where the LT steps into another multiverse,
in fact,
try and find the LT in any other reality outside the Prime multiverse. (sans the D of M)
Heck, the LT can't even attack a character/object that originates from another multiverse.

The MU got bigger in your opinion,
but Eternity/Infinity and the primary hierarchal Concepts stayed exactly the same.

Eternity/Infinity is still "multiversal." (there is NO conscious universe outside This one and only multiverse)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

So he was Multiversal back than, like Beyonder was Multiversal+. And the recton happened because Beyonder is still a part of the whole MU (Marvel Comics that is). It's not his fault is not a valid argument tbh, no offense. The territory was expanded, the true power of the beyonder was shown and it was smaller than the combined new territory.
The "true power of the Beyonder?" ... as in "post" retcon? That's a different character.

Classic Beyonder is an ocean while the LT and all of significant Marvel combined is a drop of water.

Btw. The BeyonderS, from the Beyond Realm, uhm, even after B was retconned,
their realm also makes All of Eternity seem like a speck in comparison,
and the LT was included withIN Eternity.

It just goes to show that even later writers classified the Beyond Realm as the big Wow of Marvel.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

It matters. The Universal concepts changed, became bigger, got more important or less important roles. With new territory comes new responsibility.
We don't know the rest of the infinite 99% of the MU, it can change with a new writer, we might get more insights
Actually you have to speak for yourself, cause I know exactly what's going on Outside the Prime Multiverse:

Nothing! (concerning cosmic scale powers connected to other specific multiverseS)

Aside from the Beyond Realm, there is nothing of consequence.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

The brothers from the crossover are differen't from those in the X-Men comic. The Marvel Brothers are created by marvel, the crossover brothers by both companies, an hence only both companies have the "right" to recton them. apart from this, the brothers even look different, it is more like an experiment of LT from his past experience of the crossover instead of your implied real brothers being created by Spectre and LT.
Your improvision into LT's mind is lovely, althugh completely unsupported.

Again, Marvel and DC both played a part in Adventures of the X-Men.

The Brothers are the same,
the difference is in the LT and Spectre who were portrayed as above them.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Marvel can appoint only things to Marvel tbh. The Ominverse, as oxymoronic as it sounds, from Marvel is a differen't one than that of DC or Valiant. Maybe there is someone dreaming about having the "authority" to decide what is a FACT for other companies but it will stay just a dream ^^.
DC is it's own Omniverse, like Marvel is it's own. The Brothers (Megaverses) are hence only in Marvel and not a part of DC, as they were created in a Marvel comic by Marvel. The real brothers as said are a one time shot and I don't think even canon.
I'm not sure you're following me.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

I disagree with your opinion to 100% with the reasons I already named. But to each his own.
LT and Spectre just succeeded to stop the brothers for a time but never defeated them, and the brothers were not even paying attention but fighting each other, where we might assume most of their power was concentrated. Neither LT nor the Spectre had the power to kill/defeat them, it was obivious that they were below them.
You're not follwoing me.

BeyonderGod
Oh god......

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT's prime resposibility is to the Prime Multiverse that houses the 616 Reality.

The LT may supposedly exist in all so called multiverses,
but go ahead and find a story where the LT steps into another multiverse,
in fact,
try and find the LT in any other reality outside the Prime multiverse. (sans the D of M)
Heck, the LT can't even attack a character/object that originates from another multiverse.

The MU got bigger in your opinion,
but Eternity/Infinity and the primary hierarchal Concepts stayed exactly the same.

Eternity/Infinity is still "multiversal." (there is NO conscious universe outside This one and only multiverse)

The "true power of the Beyonder?" ... as in "post" retcon? That's a different character.

Classic Beyonder is an ocean while the LT and all of significant Marvel combined is a drop of water.

Btw. The BeyonderS, from the Beyond Realm, uhm, even after B was retconned,
their realm also makes All of Eternity seem like a speck in comparison,
and the LT was included withIN Eternity.

It just goes to show that even later writers classified the Beyond Realm as the big Wow of Marvel.

Actually you have to speak for yourself, cause I know exactly what's going on Outside the Prime Multiverse:

Nothing! (concerning cosmic scale powers)

Aside from the Beyond Realm, there is nothing of consequence.

Your improvision into LT's mind is lovely, althugh completely unsupported.

Again, Marvel and DC both played a part in Adventures of the X-Men#12.

The Brothers are the same,
the difference is in the LT and Spectre who were portrayed as above them.

I'm not sure you're following me.

You're not follwoing me.
So you disregard LT having the Megaverses in his hand?

It got bigger by comics. It was a Multiverse, now it is an Omniverse with Megaverses and Multiverses within.

It is the same character.

Compared to the old Marvel Multiverse system, that changed.

Obviously you don't know anything. And I would rather put my money on the Marvel writers than on your "knowledge".

Ok please show me the Cover of the x-Men #12 with DC's logo on it. Go ahead, I will wait. Till then you got nothing. Seriously. Marvel has Brothers, but they are differen't and Marvel exclusive. The original belong to both companies. If you show me a comic with both companies on the cover that rectons them, I will side with you.

I don't want to follow you because I see the wrong path you are at.

And here, wrong colors, shoulderplates where there were none.

Since those two Brothers are Marvel exclusive it is rather likely that LT copied what he experienced.
Close but still not close enough.

I will reconsider your opinion, as wrong as it is right now, once Disney buys DC Comics and makes it part of Marvel. Till then DC is obviously an independent company and not a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
So you disregard LT having the Megaverses in his hand?

It got bigger by comics. It was a Multiverse, now it is an Omniverse with Megaverses and Multiverses within.

It is the same character.

Compared to the old Marvel Multiverse system, that changed.

Obviously you don't know anything. And I would rather put my money on the Marvel writers than on your "knowledge".

Ok please show me the Cover of the x-Men #12 with DC's logo on it. Go ahead, I will wait. Till then you got nothing. Seriously. Marvel has Brothers, but they are differen't and Marvel exclusive. The original belong to both companies. If you show me a comic with both companies on the cover that rectons them, I will side with you.

I don't want to follow you because I see the wrong path you are at.

And here, wrong colors, shoulderplates where there were none.

Since those two Brothers are Marvel exclusive it is rather likely that LT copied what he experienced.
Close but still not close enough.
Those wasn't canon
The brothers are non-canon
LT/Spectre powers/bio was non-canon

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Those wasn't canon
The brothers are non-canon
LT/Spectre powers/bio was non-canon

The Brothers from Marvel vs DC are not canon, I agree.
Marvels Brothers are canon, to Marvel only.
I don't care much about bios.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
The Brothers from Marvel vs DC are not canon, I agree.
Marvels Brothers are canon, to Marvel only.
I don't care much about bios.
The brothers still aren't canon marvel wise unless you have scans. :scans.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

So you disregard LT having the Megaverses in his hand?

It got bigger by comics. It was a Multiverse, now it is an Omniverse with Megaverses and Multiverses within.
It is the same character.
Compared to the old Marvel Multiverse system, that changed.
Obviously you don't know anything. And I would rather put my money on the Marvel writers than on your "knowledge".
Ok please show me the Cover of the x-Men #12 with DC's logo on it. Go ahead, I will wait. Till then you got nothing. Seriously. Marvel has Brothers, but they are differen't and Marvel exclusive. The original belong to both companies. If you show me a comic with both companies on the cover that rectons them, I will side with you.

I don't want to follow you because I see the wrong path you are at.

And here, wrong colors, shoulderplates where there were none.
Since those two Brothers are Marvel exclusive it is rather likely that LT copied what he experienced.
Close but still not close enough.
I will reconsider your opinion, as wrong as it is right now, once Disney buys DC Comics and makes it part of Marvel. Till then DC is obviously an independent company and not a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse.
o ... k ... Anyway, I could go back and forth but after years of debating experience I've learned
arguing against opinions/theories will get me nowhere.

So ... I'll simply post the truth with proof and move on. (I do this for the onlookers)

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Marvel Brothers look exactly like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

The Marvel Brothers are locked in an eternal struggle just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

They have the same Name: ... The BROTHERS! ... lol

The Marvel Brothers battle with swords, just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

The Marvel Brothers are blue and red, just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

The Marvel Brothers are guardians of the realities they architected, just like the original Brothers. (Marvel & DC)

-------------------

Coincidence? hm Not imo, but perhaps.

The originals were embodiments, and everything else is a perfect copy:

(Marvel vs DC)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17251794_Brothers1.jpg

(Adventures of the X-Men)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17251795_Brothers2.jpg


continues below:

Mr Master
-------------------------------------------

In Adventures of the X-Men:

Originally, the story involved the DC and Marvel entirety,
and Mike Carlin, who was currently an Executive Editor at DC,
approved the project, added his ideas and allowed his name to be highlighted.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15453470_Bro1.jpg

-------------------------------------

I used to debate against this, but I later accepted the evidence I investigated for myself,
the Spectre being alluded to being involved, but in the most obvious way:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15453471_Bro2.jpg

--------------------------------

Interestingly enough,
I used to think the LT held the ALPHA & OMEGA on the other hand,
but in fact, it was always the BrotherS that ARE the Beginning & the End:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15453472_Bro3.jpg

"Alpha & Omega revolve on the Wheel of Destiny ...
a Wheel spun by his mighty Hand .. A Hand soon opening
to allow two Brothers to assume their pre-destined roles as architects of new realities."

Wow ... nice!

-----------------------------------------------------------

So the LT undoubtably, imo,
held the power/embodiment/beginning-end ... of Two MegaverseS in one hand.

Which at the time published, (97') was all of Marvel and DC in his hand.

(at-least until 2007 when we officially understood via handbooks Marvel had its own private omniverse)

2005 Handbooks have Marvel and DC as Megaverses, inside a greater Omniverse.
2006 Handbooks really doesn't change that particularly.
2007 Handbooks finally changes that completely.

==================================


This truth above is supported:

This page over at Marvuanapp hasn't been updated since mid 2004,
but at-least until then, this is the Bio of the Retcon BrotherS:

(bio was created by Marvel/DC comic book Writers)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers.htm

btw. The guy who created Marvunapp is the person who came up with the term "Megaverse"
which Marvel comics and even DC applies to their worlds.

After 2007, Marvel has been referencing a sole Omniverse
with endless representations of 616, so that detail's changed,
but the rest, is right on point with me.

stoned

Mr Master
So for the record, not imo, but in the factual harmony certified in my prior posts,
both DC and Marvel were in cahoots regarding this "Adventures of the X-Men" story.

I never stated that this is relevant Now, I did clearly add, originally or initially, cause that's the truth.

So yea, the LT, the Marvel Brothers have nothing to do with DC Now
and perhaps shortly after the freakin story "Adv. of the X-Men" ... But ...
there is No doubt, that when the comic was published, that was the plot,
and the LT and Spectre (not by name but obviously)
were depicted as being above all that is Marvel and DC. (Brothers)

Meh, in DC vs Marvel ... the LT and Spectre nearly obliterated both Brothers
when they warped the shit out of them via force.
Again, luckily, Access helped save the "superior" Brothers.

Which means, they were always not supreme,
even if that was the implication yet never realized.

BeyonderGod
Nice Mr.Master I read it all.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Lol @Mr. Master trying to convince people that HIS OPINION is the truth. They are copies, as you said, of the brothers, nothing more and slightly different as you can see in my scans. As for the name, there are also Brothers in FF 8.... You can't be serious.

Now the most important part, DC has no official part in this comic.
Post the cover, so we can see DC logo on it, next to marvel.

I am long enough here to see the wishful thinking of some comic megalomaniac for what it is wishful thinking.

BeyonderGod
Convince people ? He is actually correct!

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Convince people ? He is actually correct!

Only if you see it like this.

Marvel owns the rights of DC and can make DC a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse. Which is just utter BS.

Just take a look at the cover, which will never be posted here. It lacks DCs logo. Not single writer, artist can speak for the whole DC company while working for Marvel. An assumption like this is just fanboyish, wishful thinking. But to each his own I guess?

To end this discussion and all lies accompanied with it, here is the cover of the
"non canon" cartoon adaption Adventures of the X-Men #12
I can't see a DC logo, as hard as I try.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090110144956/marveldatabase/images/e/e4/Adventures_of_the_X-Men_Vol_1_12.jpg

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Only if you see it like this.

Marvel owns the rights of DC and can make DC a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse. Which is just utter BS.

Just take a look at the cover, which will never be posted here. It lacks DCs logo. Not single writer, artist can speak for the whole DC company while working for Marvel. An assumption like this is just fanboyish, wishful thinking. But to each his own I guess?

To end this discussion and all lies accompanied with it, here is the cover of the
"non canon" cartoon adaption Adventures of the X-Men #12
I can't see a DC logo, as hard as I try.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090110144956/marveldatabase/images/e/e4/Adventures_of_the_X-Men_Vol_1_12.jpg
Proof?.......as just a cover isn't reliable.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Proof?.......as just a cover isn't reliable.

I loled, and i am done. You guys are trolling.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Marvel owns the rights of DC
and can make DC a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse.

Which is just utter BS.
I agree, that's bs, who said this exactly? Oh right, you're still not following me.

You're not, cause I never ever claimed that DC was a megaverse within Marvel.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Not single writer, artist can speak for the whole DC company while working for Marvel.
facepalm ... Now I'm convinced you're not paying attention either.

Mike Carlin has not only been a Writer/Artist and Editor for DC comics,
but he was also the Executive Editor of DC during Adventures of the X-Men and then Vice President.
He was also the Creative Director at DC.
Mike was also an Editor in Marvel prior to becoming one of DC's major bosses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Carlin

Do you understand what it means to be the "Executive Editor" of a magazine? Christ!

Anywho,
Mike Carlin was not only the most respected person in DC at the time until he was replaced by Dan Didio,
but he even appeared On Panel in DC as the True Supreme Being!

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21484647_mxy7.jpg

I believe only Morrison has matched this.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

here is the cover of the "non canon" cartoon adaption Adventures of the X-Men #12

Adventures of the X-Men ... is "non canon" you say.

Interesting, yet, it's referenced in the LT's Marvel bio as an actual event which took place.

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/21484653_Brothers_canon.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------

And Again! ... Mike Carlin, who was the Executive Editor in DC comics during Adventures of the X-Men,
was involved in said book:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/21485164_Brothers_Carlin.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------

The Brothers Handbook bio: (and the contributors to the Brothers profile)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers.htm

First Appearance: DC vs. Marvel#1 (1996)

Other appearances: DC vs. Marvel#2-4 (March-May, 1996) ... Adventures of the X-Men#12 (March, 1997)

-----------------------

... see under Comments:

Ron Marz - DC and Marvel writer/artist (worked in DC vs Marvel) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Marz

Dan Jurgens - DC writer/artist (worked in DC vs Marvel) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jurgens

Claudio Castellini - Marvel/DC artist (worked in DC vs Marvel) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Castellini

-------------------------------------------------------

Mike Carlin did NOT work for Marvel during Adv. of the X-Men!

He was one of the 3 top bosses at DC comics in 1997 - before, during and after Adv. of the X-Men.

I'm done with the intransigent circles now. Good day sir.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I loled, and i am done. You guys are trolling.
Yes you are a troll.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, that's bs, who said this exactly? Oh right, you're still not following me.

You're not, cause I never ever claimed that DC was a megaverse within Marvel.

facepalm2 ... Now I'm convinced you're not paying attention either.

Mike Carlin has not only been a Writer/Artist and Editor for DC comics,
but he was also the Executive Editor of DC during Adventures of the X-Men and then Vice President.
He was also the Creative Director at DC.
Mike was also an Editor in Marvel prior to becoming one of DC's major bosses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Carlin

Do you understand what it means to be the "Executive Editor" of a magazine? Christ!

Anywho,
Mike Carlin was not only the most respected person in DC at the time until he was replaced by Dan Didio,
but he even appeared On Panel in DC as the True Supreme Being!

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21484647_mxy7.jpg

I believe only Morrison has matched this.

Adventures of the X-Men ... is "non canon" you say.

Interesting, yet, it's referenced in the LT's Marvel bio as an actual event which took place.

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/21484653_Brothers_canon.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------

And Again! ... Mike Carlin, who was the Executive Editor in DC comics during Adventures of the X-Men,
was involved in said book:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/21485164_Brothers_Carlin.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------

The Brothers Handbook bio: (and the contributors to the Brothers profile)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers.htm

First Appearance: DC vs. Marvel#1 (1996)

Other appearances: DC vs. Marvel#2-4 (March-May, 1996) ... Adventures of the X-Men#12 (March, 1997)

-----------------------

... see under Comments:

Ron Marz - DC and Marvel writer/artist (worked in DC vs Marvel) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Marz

Dan Jurgens - DC writer/artist (worked in DC vs Marvel) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jurgens

Claudio Castellini - Marvel/DC artist (worked in DC vs Marvel) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Castellini

-------------------------------------------------------

Mike Carlin did NOT work for Marvel during Adv. of the X-Men!

He was one of the 3 top bosses at DC comics in 1997 - before, during and after Adv. of the X-Men.

I'm done with the intransigent circles now. Good day sir.

facepalm2
You can't grasp it or you are not willing to.

This comic is not part of DC, it doesn't matter who worked on it, it is a Marvel Company book not a Crossover nor a collaboration. FACT. Get over it and don't lie or twist it to suit your believes.

It doesn't mean sh!t who worked where and what positions they held at what point or where their daily toilet was. The Book is from Marvel and not from Marvel AND DC, as you can see by the cover and by the lack of DCs branding on it. POINT. DO you understand this simple fact?

Good day, sir.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers.htm

as you can read is not a reliable source, as fans can participate there and it has no meaning on those boards. Bios are also regarded as BS here.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090110144956/marveldatabase/images/e/e4/Adventures_of_the_X-Men_Vol_1_12.jpg
Marvel exclusive, published without DC. IOW differen't brothers, copies but not the real deal.

EDIT: You would have to accept both, that DC is just a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse and that the Brothers are the same or none, you can't have both, else it is a retarded doublestandard.

BeyonderGod
Troll confirmed.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

It doesn't mean sh!t who worked where and what positions they held at what point or where their daily toilet was. The Book is from Marvel and not from Marvel AND DC, as you can see by the cover and by the lack of DCs branding on it. POINT. DO you understand this simple fact?
thumb down
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

as you can read is not a reliable source,

as fans can participate there and it has no meaning on those boards.
False! (fans solicite info that's scrutinized by Jeff and/or the comic writer him/herself)

The Author/Owner of Marvunapp is Jeff Christiansen (the premiere Official Marvel Handbook WRITER)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appmasts.htm

This guy has an incredible track record working for Marvel Comics!

Jeff has so much knowledge about Marvel comics,
that he's one of the dude's Marvel gets advice from concerning on panel "continuity."

Mr Christiansen also happens to be the head writer of the Brothers' bio,
with help from 3 (of 4) writers/artists from DC vs Marvel:

Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini

------------------------------------------


The first page of every single Official Marvel Universe Handbook directs us to Marvunapp:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/21488387_Handbook.jpg

My, my, for data corrections and more details! smile

Oh and, can you read who's the HEAD WRITER of the Official Marvel HandbookSSS?

uhm, that's right ... the Author/Owner of Marvunapp - Jeff Christiansen! thumb up (main writer of the Marvel/DC Brothers bio)

++++++++++++++++

It's beyond laughable for you to claim this is an "unreliable source" .. yet, ... you are? ka-dur
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Bios are also regarded as BS here.

Official bios are 100% valid if they adhere to on panel showings.

And do yurself a favor, don't imagine yurself giving me instructions on how to debate.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb down

False! (fans solicite info that's scrutinized by Jeff and/or the comic writer him/herself)

The Author/Owner of Marvunapp is Jeff Christiansen (the premiere Official Marvel Handbook WRITER)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appmasts.htm

This guy has an incredible track record working for Marvel Comics!

Jeff has so much knowledge about Marvel comics,
that he's one of the dude's Marvel gets advice from concerning on panel "continuity."

Mr Christiansen also happens to be the head writer of the Brothers' bio,
with help from 3 (of 4) writers/artists from DC vs Marvel:

Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini

------------------------------------------


The first page of every single Official Marvel Universe Handbook directs us to Marvunapp:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/21488387_Handbook.jpg

My, my, for data corrections and more details! smile

Oh and, can you read who's the HEAD WRITER of the Official Marvel HandbookSSS?

uhm, that's right ... the Author/Owner of Marvunapp - Jeff Christiansen! thumb up (main writer of the Marvel/DC Brothers bio)

++++++++++++++++

It's beyond laughable for you to claim this is an "unreliable source" .. yet, ... you are? ka-dur

Official bios are 100% valid if they adhere to on panel showings.

And do yurself a favor, don't imagine yurself giving me instructions on how to debate.

Go ahead and ask the mods if this is valid here. I don't think so, what class is odin strength wise? 75? And Zeus, IIRC 90. Yeah, great source. And the online one is even worse, as the writer himself isn't even sure if it is canon or not, the Brother thing:
"In--of all places--The Adventures of the X-Men#12, the hierarchy of the Brothers (as higher than the Living Tribunal) is disputed. This is a somewhat interesting series, as I had initially just assumed it to be adaptations of the X-Men cartoon. I watched the first season or two, but didn't continue to follow it, so I can't confirm or deny this as being the case. However/Anyway, in this issue, the demons D'Spayre and the Dweller-in-Darkness instigate the destruction of the M'Kraan Crystal, which in turn destroys all reality. Phoenix harnesses all of the positive emotions of everyone in the universe and uses this energy to have the sentience of the universe join with Galan of Taa and allow him to survive the destruction of the universe, and to ultimately become Galactus in that Universe. So, the implication is that the events of that series (and possibly of the cartoon) took place in the universe before the current one.
At any rate, the relevance is here: During this conflict, the Living Tribunal is seen to be holding the Two Brothers in the palm of his hand, as he goes to consult with his "hooded, spectral ally" (clearly the Spectre). As the old universe is destroyed, the Tribunal releases the Brothers to "assume their pre-destined roles as architects of new realities."
So, while the Adventures of the X-Men is not quite official canon, the book was written by Ralph Macchio, with the assistance of Mike Carlin, indicating that both Marvel and DC were involved in this explanation. The Brothers are thus intermediary in power and authority between the Living Tribunal and Eternity (or their comparable counterparts in the DC Megaverse). However, each Brother tends has some authority and control over universes outside the standard Multiverse, but within the Megaverse, while the Living Tribunal has not been shown to have authority over worlds outside the Multiverse.
--Snood."

Lol, at such sources as FACTs. I provided the only fact that matters, the cover and the lack of DCs branding, making it an Marvel only book not a crossover and this still stands:
You would have to accept both, that DC is just a Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse and that the Brothers are the same or none, you can't have both, else it is a retarded doublestandard.

You have to learn that your view of the cosmic hierarchy is just your opinion. wink

Mr Master
^^ Actually I posted On Panel evidence and simply corroborated it with Official Marvel bios.
You're obviously just trying to get in the last word, and that's fine, but the fact is:

... you've presented? .... nada.

Bottomline, both the DC Brother and Marvel Brother appeared in Adventures of the X-Men.

Only pure idiocy would think that Marvel ripped off a carbon copy of the originals
with identical histories/purpose going as far as naming them exactly the same.

That's idea is utterly nonsensical.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Actually I posted On Panel evidence and simply corroborated it with Official Marvel bios.
You're obviously just trying to get in the last word, and that's fine, but the fact is:

... you've presented? .... nada.

Bottomline, both the DC Brother and Marvel Brother appeared in Adventures of the X-Men.

Only pure idiocy would think that Marvel ripped off a carbon copy of the originals
with identical histories/purpose going as far as naming them exactly the same.

That's idea is utterly nonsensical.

It is pure idiocy to think they are the same, when they are just a Marvel creation in an Marvel only book without DCs branding. And no, they are not the originals, just copies, rip offs, and DC is not a Megaverse in Marvels Omniverse, and Hyperion and Gladiator are not Superman. All those wishful thinking of Marvel having the right to make those decision is everything but it's not the fact.

So you have what you had in the beginning, you delusional opinion, which means nothing.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

It is pure idiocy to think they are the same, when they are just a Marvel creation in an Marvel only book without DCs branding. And no, they are not the originals, just copies, rip offs, and DC is not a Megaverse in Marvels Omniverse, and Hyperion and Gladiator are not Superman.

All those wishful thinking of Marvel having the right to make those decision is everything but a fact.
facepalm

So, still lost I'm noticing.

I never claimed/stated DC was anything inside Marvel's omniverse.

Marvel didn't apply the story Adventures of the X-Men #12 on its own,
again!
Mike Carlin (Executive Editor of DC at the time) helped write Adventures of the X-Men with Macchio. (Marvel Editor)

I mean ... durznuts

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

So, still lost I'm noticing.

I never claimed/stated DC was anything inside Marvel's omniverse.

Marvel didn't apply the story Adventures of the X-Men #12 on its own,
again!
Mike Carlin (Executive Editor of DC at the time) helped write Adventures of the X-Men with Macchio. (Marvel Editor)

I mean ... durznuts

Ok, a last attemp to show you the idiocy of your opinion.

Marvel does not have the rights to recton the original brothers without dc, the writer you praisw so much couldn't even use the Spectre, he couldn't use his appearance nor his name, he wrote spectral hooded friend because he was aware that he has no phucking right to use dc chars un an marvel book. And so we know that those brothers are just rip offs and no original.

Your stance can't have both, DC is a Megaverse in Marvel and those are the real brothers and Spectre appeared indirectly in a Marvel book withou DC approving it or all this is just a copy and not what you try to force it to be.

I feel like talking to a child.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Answer me just this one little question. Why didn't they draw the Spectre in this comic and named him the Spectre?

That's all i want from you, an honest answer.

Or before you dodge it. A simpler one.

Would they be able, legaly, to draw the Spectre and name him Spectre in this book without having to fear consequences?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

So, still lost I'm noticing.

I never claimed/stated DC was anything inside Marvel's omniverse.

Marvel didn't apply the story Adventures of the X-Men #12 on its own,
again!
Mike Carlin (Executive Editor of DC at the time) helped write Adventures of the X-Men with Macchio. (Marvel Editor)

I mean ... durznuts

laughing out loud

He is like nver all over again.

Mr Master
^ laughing thumb up
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

I feel like talking to a child.
I agree, for the dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity.

So, have fun in your discussions with youths.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Answer me just this one little question.
Why didn't they draw the Spectre in this comic and named him the Spectre?

You should email Mike Carlin, (who was Executive Editor) in DC at the time.

Anyway, they did draw both BrotherS, and we all know one of those Brothers was DC.
The "hooded spectral" ally is an obvious reference to DC's Spectre connecting the DC Brother to the story.

You should also understand one thing:

From the beginning I stated this was the initial idea upon publishing back in 1997.
I think you're confusing yourself cause you think I'm giving this relevance now in the Present.

I can't say for sure when this concept went out the window,
but it was defnitely official
as soon as Marvel explicitely stated it had it's own Omniverse in 2007.

operator616 was correct, Wanda's feat may have been far more than I originally thought.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
^ laughing thumb up

I agree, for the dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity.

So, have fun in your discussions with youths.

You should email Mike Carlin, (who was Executive Editor) in DC at the time.

Anyway, they did draw both BrotherS, and we all know one of those Brothers was DC.
The "hooded spectral" ally is an obvious reference to DC's Spectre connecting the DC Brother to the story.

You should also understand one thing:

From the beginning I stated this was the initial idea upon publishing back in 1997.
I think you're confusing yourself cause you think I'm giving this relevance now in the Present.

I can't say for sure when this concept went out the window,
but it was defnitely official
as soon as Marvel explicitely stated it had it's own Omniverse in 2007.

operator616 was correct, Wanda's feat may have been far more than I originally thought.

So no? They had no right to draw the spectre and name him so?

So if the brothers is dc, then this Megaverse represents dc and is part of the marvel omniverse?

Laughable.

But you dodged a simple yes no question, be proud.

BeyonderGod
No you didn't comprehend
The brothers themselves was created as a plot to combine both dc and marvel and when they tried the amalgram comics they was shitty and they stopped.

zom1967
Well I have the complete collection of original Marvel bio`s.Going by that Odin is not a galaxy buster,and can`t even move a world unaided.Does that sound right to you!And L.T was scared to death of pre-retcon Beyonder.His power is kind of a mystery now,But he is at least still close to L.T in power.And when the new secret wars comes back,you can bet he will be at his pre-retcon levels again!

zom1967
Originally posted by zom1967
Well I have the complete collection of original Marvel bio`s.Going by that Odin is not a galaxy buster,and can`t even move a world unaided.Does that sound right to you!And L.T was scared to death of pre-retcon Beyonder.His power is kind of a mystery now,But he is at least still close to L.T in power.And when the new secret wars comes back,you can bet he will be at his pre-retcon levels again! I have lost a lot of respect for L.t since they found him dead on the moon,even thought it is one of his many m-bodies.I was dissapointed,thought he was more powerful,did anyone find out who killed him yet?

abhilegend
Yeah, those "brothers" were just homages of the brothers in DC vs Marvel. No amount of twisting would change the fact. Because the alternative that DC "as one brother was the totality of DC multiverse" is a part of marvel multiverse.


And DC vs Marvel is rendered non-canon by JLA/Avengers. So a non-canon story "Adventures of X-men" paying homage to a non canon story "DC vs Marvel" is being used as a proof?

Hilarious.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, those "brothers" were just homages of the brothers in DC vs Marvel. No amount of twisting would change the fact. Because the alternative that DC "as one brother was the totality of DC multiverse" is a part of marvel multiverse.


And DC vs Marvel is rendered non-canon by JLA/Avengers. So a non-canon story "Adventures of X-men" paying homage to a non canon story "DC vs Marvel" is being used as a proof?

Hilarious.

thumb up

Yeah, worst of all is the attemp to make it sound like those implications are facts. Thant grinds my gears.

Mr Master
^^ Right, what would the actual writers/artists of the story Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini
and Jeff Christiansen, Marvel's most knowledgeable (concerning comcis) individual know about it next to you?

"gears grinding?" ... How about melt down.
Originally posted by zom1967

Well I have the complete collection of original Marvel bio`s.
Going by that Odin is not a galaxy buster,
and can`t even move a world unaided.
Does that sound right to you!
Awesome. Good thing we're (well I'm) not using bios for power level gauging in this discussion,
and instead the bios were introduced in this debate to elaborate on historical story facts, not power scales.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Yeah, those "brothers" were just homages of the brothers in DC vs Marvel.

No amount of twisting would change the fact.
"Fact?" ... huh?

Ok, just post the on panel and/or handbook and/or interview where this fallacy is claimed.

But since I know you have neither, I'll just let you love yourself.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Because the alternative that DC "as one brother was the totality of DC multiverse" is a part of marvel multiverse.
no expression
Originally posted by abhilegend

And DC vs Marvel is rendered non-canon by JLA/Avengers.
Interesting.

When JLA/Avengers has absolutely nothing to do with DC vs Marvel in any sense of the word.

DC vs Marvel's, (97') original understanding was retconned
about 3 months after being published in Adventures of the X-Men. (97')

The only thing that changed according to:

Jeff Christiansen (who works for Marvel Comics & is Marvel's Head Handbook Writer)
and Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini (Writers/Artists of the actual DC vs Marvel books)

Is that the LT and Spectre were above the DC and Marvel BrotherS in the retcon story.

Mike Carlin (Execuitve Editor of DC at the time) helped write the story.
Originally posted by abhilegend

So a non-canon story "Adventures of X-men"
paying homage to a non canon story "DC vs Marvel" is being used as a proof?
Adventures of the X-Men is 100% Canon:

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/21484653_Brothers_canon.jpg

The BrotherS bio at Marvunapp hasn't been updated since 2004, this LT bio was published in 2006.

Next.

BeyonderGod
Mr.Master is the master I rekting trolls.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Mr Master
"Fact?" ... huh?

Ok, just post the on panel and/or handbook and/or interview where this fallacy is claimed.

But since I know you have neither, I'll just let you love yourself.

no expression Yeah, facts. Next you will ask me to prove Gladiator/Hyperion are Superman homages, right? Get real. Or I can prove Marvel Comics is a part of DCU by posting John Byrne making mxy go to fantastic four as Impossible Man too.

It has everything to do with it. It was a joint collaboration from both DC and Marvel and its official. You can chose to believe or not, I don't give a damn.

A DC/Marvel collaborative work can't be retconned by a thinly veiled homage. Get this in your thick skull.

Prove that Spectre appeared in that story by an official DC comic scan or bio. Not by your make-believe theories.

And Ron Marz had Access come to Kyle in DCU in Jun 1997.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Green_Lantern_Vol_3_87

And Access pretty much reiterated DC vs Marvel in Unlimited Access 1 which happened in Dec, 1997.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Unlimited_Access_Vol_1_1

While Adventures of X-men occurred in March 1997.

http://marvel.wikia.com/The_Adventures_of_the_X-Men_Vol_1_12

Looks like it got re-retconned. Or it wasn't retconned to begin with.


Means jackshit. Spectre can't appear in a marvel comic book.

So? I can post bios that tell that Shuma Gorath from marvel vs capcom is canon to 616. Even if I believe its canon, LT dealt with some homages. Big deal.

Just post a scan which says Spectre appeared in that comic. Otherwise John Byrne wrote this story where Mxy appeared in marvel universe and thus marvel universe is just a part of DCU.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U0hjv5jdjl4/UbMLkY6FtVI/AAAAAAAAQYw/mp-uMgE8imE/s1600/mxy3.jpg

Honestly, I think you have lost it altogether.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Right, what would the actual writers/artists of the story Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini
and Jeff Christiansen, Marvel's most knowledgeable (concerning comcis) individual know about it next to you?

"gears grinding?" ... How about melt down.

Awesome. Good thing we're (well I'm) not using bios for power level gauging in this discussion,
and instead the bios were introduced in this debate to elaborate on historical story facts, not power scales.

"Fact?" ... huh?

Ok, just post the on panel and/or handbook and/or interview where this fallacy is claimed.

But since I know you have neither, I'll just let you love yourself.

no expression

Interesting.

When JLA/Avengers has absolutely nothing to do with DC vs Marvel in any sense of the word.

DC vs Marvel's, (97') original understanding was retconned
about 3 months after being published in Adventures of the X-Men. (97')

The only thing that changed according to:

Jeff Christiansen (who works for Marvel Comics & is Marvel's Head Handbook Writer)
and Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini (Writers/Artists of the actual DC vs Marvel books)

Is that the LT and Spectre were above the DC and Marvel BrotherS in the retcon story.

Mike Carlin (Execuitve Editor of DC at the time) helped write the story.

Adventures of the X-Men is 100% Canon:

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/21484653_Brothers_canon.jpg

The BrotherS bio at Marvunapp hasn't been updated since 2004, this LT bio was published in 2006.

Next.

It has no meaning if the CEO od DC phucked the X-Men Artist in the butt and told him what to do. It is not and official DC book, just a Marvel one. The DC Verse can't appear in this comic, nor can the Spectre, and Marvel/thewriters/artists never dared to do it because they simply can't.

Really easy.

DC Verse = DC Brother + Spectre (= part of Marvel) never appeared in the x-men book, because Marvel has no right to have them there.

Megaverse = Megaverse Brother + spectral hooded Friend (appeared only by name) are not from the DC Verse and you will never find them there because they are just a part, rip off homage, and belong to Marvel.

Even a child should be able to see this.

Stop spilling your opinion/lies as truth. Someone might be dumb enough to believe it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Just post a scan which says Spectre appeared in that comic. Otherwise John Byrne wrote this story where Mxy appeared in marvel universe and thus marvel universe is just a part of DCU.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U0hjv5jdjl4/UbMLkY6FtVI/AAAAAAAAQYw/mp-uMgE8imE/s1600/mxy3.jpg

Honestly, I think you have lost it altogether.

I would also like to see the real Spectre appeare in the Adventures of X-Men, a non DC book. laughing out loud

Mr Master
Originally posted by abhilegend

Yeah, facts. Next you will ask me to prove Gladiator/Hyperion are Superman homages, right? Get real. Or I can prove Marvel Comics is a part of DCU by posting John Byrne making mXy go to fantastic four as Impossible Man too.
When JLA/Avengers has absolutely nothing to do with DC vs Marvel in any sense of the word. It has everything. It was a joint collaboration from both DC and Marvel and its official. You can chose to believe or not, I don't give a damn.
A DC/Marvel collaborative work can't be retconned by a thinly veiled homage. Get this in your thick skull.
Prove that Spectre appeared in that story by an official DC comic scan or bio. Not by your make-believe theories.
Means jackshit. Spectre can't appear in a marvel comic book.
So? I can post bios that tell that Shuma Gorath from marvel vs capcom is canon to 616. Even if I believe its canon, LT dealt with some homages. Big deal.
Just post a scan which says Spectre appeared in that comic. Otherwise John Byrne wrote this story where Mxy appeared in marvel universe and thus marvel universe is just a part of DCU.
dur ... Let me know when you have a single shred of evidence to support yur fallacies.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Honestly, I think you have lost it altogether.
laughing
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

It has no meaning if the CEO od DC phucked the X-Men Artist in the butt and told him what to do. It is not and official DC book, just a Marvel one. The DC Verse can't appear in this comic, nor can the Spectre, and Marvel/thewriters/artists never dared to do it because they simply can't.
DC Verse = DC Brother + Spectre (= part of Marvel) never appeared in the x-men book, because Marvel has no right to have them there.
Megaverse = Megaverse Brother + spectral hooded Friend (appeared only by name) are not from the DC Verse and you will never find them there because they are just a part, rip off homage, and belong to Marvel.
Even a child should be able to see this.
Stop spilling your opinion/lies as truth. Someone might be dumb enough to believe it.

I'm starting to think yur just high off some good boombonic and yur messing with me for fun.

Density at this point after all the proof posted is suspect.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
It has no meaning if the CEO od DC phucked the X-Men Artist in the butt and told him what to do. It is not and official DC book, just a Marvel one. The DC Verse can't appear in this comic, nor can the Spectre, and Marvel/thewriters/artists never dared to do it because they simply can't.

Really easy.

DC Verse = DC Brother + Spectre (= part of Marvel) never appeared in the x-men book, because Marvel has no right to have them there.

Megaverse = Megaverse Brother + spectral hooded Friend (appeared only by name) are not from the DC Verse and you will never find them there because they are just a part, rip off homage, and belong to Marvel.

Even a child should be able to see this.

Stop spilling your opinion/lies as truth. Someone might be dumb enough to believe it.



I would also like to see the real Spectre appeare in the Adventures of X-Men, a non DC book. laughing out loud
WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! e.e da fuq man I hardly understand you.....i can read Mr.Master post clearly your post lacks informational subjects of the discussion at hand......post some scans!

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! e.e da fuq man I hardly understand you.....i can read Mr.Master post clearly your post lacks informational subjects of the discussion at hand......post some scans!

I did the cover it was enough, sock.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Mr Master
dur ... Let me know when you have a single shred of evidence to support yur fallacies. Of course.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/183000/unlimitedaccess2p13-182541.jpg

Here is Unlimited Access mentioning the events of DC vs Marvel in 1998.

But that shouldn't be possible, right?

Yeah, that does no good for your already down cred.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I did the cover it was enough, sock.
Sock? Wtf are you still going on about?

Mr Master
Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/183000/unlimitedaccess2p13-182541.jpg

Here is Unlimited Access mentioning the events of DC vs Marvel in 1998.

But that shouldn't be possible, right?
Why shouldn't it be possible? The Brothers' status seemed to be retconned, not their history.

Again, only difference in Adv. of the X-Men is that the LT and Spectre are manipulating them, nothing else changed.

If you'd been paying attention
you'd know I clearly reiterated that I didn't know when the idea of the Brothers retconned,
but it was definitely official the instant the Marvel 2007 bios were published where Marvel has it's own Omniverse.

Right here from page 4:
Originally posted by Mr Master

Anyway, they did draw both BrotherS, and we all know one of those Brothers was DC.
The "hooded spectral" ally is an obvious reference to DC's Spectre connecting the DC Brother to the story.

You should also understand one thing:

From the beginning I stated this was the initial idea upon publishing back in 1997.
I think you're confusing yourself cause you think I'm giving this relevance now in the Present.

I can't say for sure when this concept went out the window,
but it was defnitely official
as soon as Marvel explicitely stated it had it's own Omniverse in 2007.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=604514&pagenumber=4
Originally posted by abhilegend

Yeah, that does no good for your already down cred.
Heh, coming from the guy who was banned for trolling. erm

abhilegend
Originally posted by Mr Master
Why shouldn't it be possible? The Brothers' status seemed to be retconned, not their history. Oh really? I was hoping you say something like that.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/183000/unlimited-access-01-36-182608.jpg

Explain how they were still the personofication of DC and Marvel one year later.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Mr Master


Heh, coming from the guy who was banned for trolling. erm


laughing out loud

BeyonderGod
I bet he got banned for rekting people during debates and mods thought he was soloing to hard.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Mr Master

Heh, coming from the guy who was banned for trolling. erm Are you getting amnesiac in the old age?

Mr Master
^^ Whatever. Yes, you're better off getting personal than sticking to the debate.

You have the audacity to highlight my "rep," which is perplexing with your history.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Oh really? I was hoping you say something like that.

Explain how they were still the personofication of DC and Marvel one year later.
no expression

Did you not comprehend my post?

I clearly stated, that nothing changed except for the LT and Spectre being portrayed as above them.

Therefore, they were still the "embodiments" of DC/Marvel, but then (Adv of X-Men) LT's & Spectre's b*tch evidently.

BeyonderGod
Lol!

abhilegend
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Whatever. Yes, you're better off getting poersonal than sticking to the debate.

You have the audacity to highlight my "rep," which is perplexing with your history.

Yeah, nothing better than some personal barbs when you are losing, right? Your entire post is a mess.
That was not spectre and those homages were not the personification of DC and marvel.
Nice denial. But yeah, I take it you have nothing else but your own words. Guess what? They aren't worth shit. Just post a scan which says spectre appeared in that comic or those homages were personification of DC. I'll wait.

heisetx
Lol.. You dweebs.

hulk is above spectre AND LT! He lifted a mountain range in that secret wars crap.. Smh. See the hulk feats thread, tell em isent ya.

snap city.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, nothing better than some personal barbs when you are losing, right? Your entire post is a mess.
That was not spectre and those homages were not the personification of DC and marvel.
Nice denial. But yeah, I take it you have nothing else but your own words. Guess what? They aren't worth shit. Just post a scan which says spectre appeared in that comic or those homages were personification of DC. I'll wait.

thumb up

laughing out loud

Smoki
@Mr Master. You smart guy should work for the marvel company. You are a legend across many comic book debating forums like crb and comicvine and naruto amongst others. I bet you could land a job as a special consultant involving all that crazy cosmo stuff. It is a pleasure to watch you post.

unknowable
Yeah Mr M is pretty much the kmc scholar of marvel cosmic entertainment and this thread is just one example of his incredible knowledge. You should also check out Galan and Operator616 posts they are also wizards in this department. I will say the monumental rivalries of GS vs Mr M are not around anymore in this area of comics, and I think it is because there is too much ignorance trying to discuss stories with the pros. They should ask instead of arguing for argument's sake.

eaebiekuya
Originally posted by Mr Master

The Author/Owner of Marvunapp is Jeff Christiansen (the premiere Official Marvel Handbook WRITER)

This guy has an incredible track record working for Marvel Comics!

Jeff has so much knowledge about Marvel comics,
that he's one of the dude's Marvel gets advice from concerning on panel "continuity."

Mr Christiansen also happens to be the head writer of the Brothers' bio,
with help from 3 (of 4) writers/artists from DC vs Marvel:

Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini

------------------------------------------

The first page of every single Official Marvel Universe Handbook directs us to Marvunapp:

My, my, for data corrections and more details!

Oh and, can you read who's the HEAD WRITER of the Official Marvel HandbookSSS?

uhm, that's right ... the Author/Owner of Marvunapp - Jeff Christiansen! (main writer of the Marvel/DC Brothers bio)

holy proof batman! so the guy who created the brothers bio is the like the man in charge of all marvel handbooks but he also made the brothers bio with the help of 3 writers from the actual story dc vs marvel who created the brothers to begin with and prior to that the story with the x-men was co-written by dc's executive editor mike carlin. this is fascinating i never would have imagined any of this until this thread. it all makes perfect sense the brothers' connected to the x-men story because i never got how a few months after dc vs marvel marvel just took the characters and made them theirs that is crazy. so thank u mr m.

Killemall
Originally posted by Mr Master

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Marvel Brothers look exactly like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

The Marvel Brothers are locked in an eternal struggle just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

They have the same Name: ... The BROTHERS! ... lol

The Marvel Brothers battle with swords, just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

The Marvel Brothers are blue and red, just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)

The Marvel Brothers are guardians of the realities they architected, just like the original Brothers. (Marvel & DC)

-------------------

Coincidence? hm Not imo, but perhaps.

The originals were embodiments, and everything else is a perfect copy:

(Marvel vs DC)

(Adventures of the X-Men)

thumb up I never noticed this happened three months after Dc vs Marvel. It's in your face obvious that these characters are the same. It would be retarded for Marvel or Dc to make replicas of characters of either company. Or was it a lack of creativity? lol. I still wasn't convinced until mr m highlighted the fact that mike carlin worked on the X-Men story and three writers from Dc vs Marvel helped write the Brothers bio. The three writers were aware of alll the information in this bio since they helped write it. If the writers of the damn story are tellng me that's what it is, then there's no need for guessing. First appearance Dc vs Marvel - Other appearances Adventures of the X-Men.

@Smoki. I'm from Comicvine and I'm well known with this same name. I can vouch for Mr M's fame at my site.

Mr Master
^^ Wow, all this back to back love for ol' Mr Mastah, ... were yall just standing by awaiting your moment? lol.
Sincerely thanx yall. smile
While I appreciate the recognition friends,
don't yall believe for one moment it will divert the intransigence I'm dealing with here.
So take my advice and do what I decided to do last night,
just ignore the obtuse consistancy, which means the thread is dead.
There really isn't anymore to say anyway, the evidence I presented can't be countered so ... peace and love yall.

I have no doubt a return of more unsupported personal theories,
senseless speculations and outright fallacies is imminent.

So, I'm done.

Prof. T.C McAbe
laughing out loud pure comedy. I wonder if those are your alt accounts or whose socks those are.

Time Immemorial
Lot of cheer leaders from CV here.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Lot of cheer leaders from CV here.

Rather, MrM agreeing with himself, through his alt accounts, because no one else does laughing out loud .

Mr Master
no expression ...

Reported for trolling my name fallaciously.

Your ridiculous notion was drivelled in the prior page,
but to induct this gibberish again, calls for Mod action.
I also want Bada to compare my ip address with those other kids,
and see if he can prove I'm debatng on 5 separate CPUs. That will settle that.

I mean, are you phukin kidding me? Damn, what a sore losing hater.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Oh my god, it is impossible to post with differen't ips! You must be a hacker! big grin
I don't hate you, I just laugh at your comedy show here. And all just because you are wrong and can't force your opinion upon others....
Originally posted by Mr Master
no expression ...

Reported for trolling my name fallaciously.

Report your socks too^^.

Wonder Man
Plus it turns out there is an Infinate race of beyonders.
Beyonder grows a third arm and wipes LT's nose.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Report your socks too^^.
Yea, anyone is free to go check out "unknowable's" VS threads, laughing out loud (kid who joined kmc the year before me)
yea, that's obviously me:

Wolverine vs, Dr Fate vs, Spiderman vs, Captain America vs, DC comics related shit VS ka-dur

Everone knows Mr Master debates street level or meta level cats LOL, oh and DC of course. LOL!

Damn son, talk about postng out of your ass.
Originally posted by Mr Master

I also want Bada to compare my ip address with those other kids,
and see if he can prove I'm debatng on 5 separate CPUs. That will settle that.
... And, reported again.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, anyone is free to go check out "unknowable's" VS threads, laughing out loud (kid who joined the year before me)
yea, that's obviously me:

Wolverine vs, Dr Fate vs, Spiderman vs, Captain America vs, DC comics related shit VS ka-dur

Everone knows Mr Master debates street level or meta level cats LOL, oh and DC of course. LOL!

Damn son, talk about postng out of your ass.

... And, reported again.

You are getting extremeley defensive, but to each his own^^. Good luck with your farce. ^^

I am done wink.

Mr Master
^^ "defensive" My culo.

You just feel real stupid right about now when you checked unknowable's VS threads.
Now you know that can't possibly be me and your foot doesn't taste good.
You probably inquired about Killemall at comicvine and ouch, double whammy.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Oh my god, it is impossible to post with differen't ips! You must be a hacker!
Frankly, I could care less how you and whoever else uses different accounts.
You poke fun at me cause I'm ignorant about the usage of socks.

Glad to know you know better, yet, I'm the socker. smile
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

I just laugh at your comedy show here.
I'm not laughing, cause I dislike when fallacies are posted
but even more when fallacies are regurgitated after being proven to be fallacies.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

And all just because you are wrong and can't force your opinion upon others....
Hilarious. Who exactly accepted your point of view? A recently banned troll who's a clown in kmc?

Also, it's not my opinion.

It's actually the opinion of the Head Writer of all the Marvel Handbooks,
and Three (of the 4) Writers from the DC vs Marvel mini,
plus the Executive Editor of DC at the time.

Hey you know, perhaps you're right, who are you again?

And they're wrong: The guy that works for Marvel, who's also the head handbook writer,
the 3 DC vs Marvel writers,
and the DC executive editor.

Yea, that might be it. crazy

... not to mention that they're not elaborating out of their asses
since we did SEE both BrotherS in the X-Men story and the Spectre allusion.

Prof. T.C McAbe
^Spectre never appeared there because they didn't had the right to have im in a Marvel book, first lie.
Second lie, the DC Brother and the DC Verse are not in that book, because DC is not an Megaverse in the Marvel Omniverse, a simple fact that can't be seperated from the others.
Third lie, just because people work for differen't companies doesn't mean they represent a whole company just because they do creative work for others, DC is independent of the writers/artists, they change, only the DC logo makes something DC related official.

Simple, you can't handle logic and such an simple truth? Not my problem, but don't act like you decide what is canon and what isn't you have no authority, you are just an unknown fanboy on a comic board whose opinion doesn't mean anything to the people at DC. Accept it and don't try to make yourself bigger than you are. Simple advice.

Mr Master
^^ blah

Your unsupported opinion vs reality, which was explained in depth by:

Jeff Christiansen (who works for Marvel Comics & is Marvel's Head Handbook Writer)

Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini (Writers/Artists of the actual DC vs Marvel books)

Mike Carlin ... Executive Editor of DC at the time.

Sorry homie, when you post your Marvel and/or DC credentials and we can verify it,
your word next to these Marvel and DC employees/vetarans is moot.

Board Walker
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ blah

Your unsupported opinion vs reality, which was explained in depth by:

Jeff Christiansen (who works for Marvel Comics & is Marvel's Head Handbook Writer)

Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini (Writers/Artists of the actual DC vs Marvel books)

Mike Carlin ... Executive Editor of DC at the time.

Sorry homie, when you post your Marvel and/or DC credentials and we can verify it,
your word next to these Marvel and DC employees/vetarans is moot.

This is hypocritical in my opinion, as you have openly stated that you value your opinion which is based upon your subjective interpretation of comics over that of a statement put forth by a Marvel employee regarding certain events in Marvel. If you are going to place the interpretations of Marvel employees above that of a random internet forum user, then do so consistently and objectively rather than picking which you want to accept.

Furthermore, Marvel has no legal or conceptual right to use DC characters in their comics without the permission of DC. The bios as well as the comics that occurred after the non canon crossover were not acknowledged, sanctioned, or allowed by DC or their parent company.

It is merely your subjective opinion that is stating it is DC's spectre, and that Marvel holds the DC company with in. Purely your own subjective opinion.

Prof. T.C McAbe
^He is a Hypocrit, with some megalomaniac tendencies^^.
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ blah

Your unsupported opinion vs reality, which was explained in depth by:

Jeff Christiansen (who works for Marvel Comics & is Marvel's Head Handbook Writer)

Ron Marz ... Dan Jurgens ... Claudio Castellini (Writers/Artists of the actual DC vs Marvel books)

Mike Carlin ... Executive Editor of DC at the time.

Sorry homie, when you post your Marvel and/or DC credentials and we can verify it,
your word next to these Marvel and DC employees/vetarans is moot.

My opinion is supported by the lack of the DC logo and hence DC accepting it in their DC Verse. Also the lack of Spectre and the writer not even daring to write his name.

Your opinion is just based on wishful thinking and people who switch their workplaces regularly....

Seriously. dur

Mr Master
^^ Reported again! Darn, I forgot to put you on ignore.
At this point you're like a channel in the way of my surfing joys. I gotta block that.
Originally posted by Board Walker

This is hypocritical in my opinion, as you have openly stated that you value your opinion which is based upon your subjective interpretation of comics over that of a statement put forth by a Marvel employee regarding certain events in Marvel.
I agree.

Which is why I used On Panel evidence to make my point,
and then I used the handbooks to solidify said point.

Also, this isn't just some employee,
it's the freakin Writers/Creators of the Brothers, and DC vs Marvel,
it's also Jeff Christiansen, who still currently works for Marvel, and is the Head Handbook writer.
Heck, writers come to Jeff seeking advice concerning continuity. He's a genuis at this.
Marvel Handbooks direct us to his (Jeff's) site for Data Corrections and further details.

That aside, my interpretation is exactly the same as theirs, so there's no hypocracy here,
and my opinion measures the same value as when I made the statement you recalled.
Originally posted by Board Walker

If you are going to place the interpretations of Marvel employees above that of a random internet forum user, then do so consistently and objectively rather than picking which you want to accept.
Actually, think about what you're gonna post before it turns out to be gobbledygook like here.

Badabing
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Wow, all this back to back love for ol' Mr Mastah, ... were yall just standing by awaiting your moment? lol.
Sincerely thanx yall. smile
While I appreciate the recognition friends,
don't yall believe for one moment it will divert the intransigence I'm dealing with here.
So take my advice and do what I decided to do last night,
just ignore the obtuse consistancy, which means the thread is dead.
There really isn't anymore to say anyway, the evidence I presented can't be countered so ... peace and love yall.

I have no doubt a return of more unsupported personal theories,
senseless speculations and outright fallacies is imminent.

So, I'm done. Just stop. I'm banning the other accounts soon.

Board Walker
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Reported again! Darn, I forgot to put you on ignore.
At this point you're like a channel in the way of my surfing joys. I gotta block that.

I agree.

Which is why I used On Panel evidence to make my point,
and then I used the handbooks to solidify said point.

Also, this isn't just some employee,
it's the freakin Writers/Creators of the Brothers, and DC vs Marvel,
it's also Jeff Christiansen, who still currently works for Marvel, and is the Head Handbook writer.
Heck, writers come to Jeff seeking advice concerning continuity. He's a genuis at this.
Marvel Handbooks direct us to his (Jeff's) site for Data Corrections and further details.

That aside, my interpretation is exactly the same as theirs, so there's no hypocracy here,
and my opinion measures the same value as when I made the statement you recalled.

Actually, think about what you're gonna post before it turns out to be gobbledygook like here.

Marvel has no claim over DC, nor are they able to use any of their IP's without their legal permission. Marvel legally cannot create an IP and claim it is a creation of DC's, this means that the Marvel Brothers are purely a Marvel creation which have no meaning in the DC IP inventory.

Marvel can make them look similar, can make them sound similar, and even name them "The Brothers" because that name likely falls in the public domain of copyright laws. Furthermore they are two humanoid entities where one is red, and the other is blue which again likely falls in public domain as they are too general in appearance to copyright. Point being that the Brothers are purely a Marvel creation and nothing more, the crossover is non canon and not acknowledge by DC which means the "brothers" from it do not exist in terms of mutually acknowledged continuity.

Your opinion is purely your own, it is not the same as that held by Marvel or by DC. You likely to imagine that your opinion as well as your SUBJECTIVE interpretations are the same as Marvel or DC so that you can assign validation to them, and use this as a means of justification to value your opinion over that of others. All you are doing is creating your own psychological construct that allows you raise the value of your opinion over another.

Mr Master
^^ nuts
Originally posted by Badabing
Just stop. I'm banning the other accounts soon.
Cool, but I already put him on ignore.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Board Walker

Marvel has no claim over DC, nor are they able to use any of their IP's without their legal permission. Marvel legally cannot create an IP and claim it is a creation of DC's, this means that the Marvel Brothers are purely a Marvel creation which have no meaning in the DC IP inventory.
I figured I'd reply to you thoroughly since you thought this out.
I'm also going to break it down cause it seems my stance gets lost in big posts.

I never claimed Marvel had any rights over DC.

I always indicated that DC played a part too since Mike Carlin helped write it.

I do agree with you, that this whole thing is meaningless on the DC side btw.
It's more like an "off-panel" event for DC if you ask me. (still dumb I agree)

Board Walker
Originally posted by Mr Master
I figured I'd reply to you thoroughly since you thought this out.
I'm also going to break it down cause it seems my stance gets lost in big posts.

I never claimed Marvel had any rights over DC.

I always indicated that DC played a part too since Mike Carlin helped write it.

I do agree with you, that this whole thing is meaningless on the DC side btw.
It's more like an "off-panel" event for DC if you ask me. (still dumb I agree)

This makes much more sense, okay I understand your interpretation now.

My point is that the brothers may be megaverses within the Marvel company (but since all of Marvel is a singular Omniverse/Megaverse I don't see how this is likely true), but that one of them does not represent DC. That is the only point I'm trying to make here, that even post of the non canon crossover, both of those brothers are Marvel megaverses and not Marvel+Dc.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Board Walker

Marvel can make them look similar, can make them sound similar, and even name them "The Brothers" because that name likely falls in the public domain of copyright laws. Furthermore they are two humanoid entities where one is red, and the other is blue which again likely falls in public domain as they are too general in appearance to copyright. Point being that the Brothers are purely a Marvel creation and nothing more, the crossover is non canon and not acknowledge by DC which means the "brothers" from it do not exist in terms of mutually acknowledged continuity
Here we disgree somewhat. There is no doubt imo it was the same Brothers.
This story took place 3 months after DC vs Marvel iirc, it can't be that silly. (the perfect copy)

Imo, while I agree with my point, it still leaves me with questions.
Like I can't understand why they did this, and left it in obscurity?
I could say they just dismissed the whole idea shortly after publishing it in 97',
but then why go ahead and recall the key event of the story in the LT's 06' bio, you feel me?

It's like, did it happen, or didn't it, and if it did, what the hell are these two "megaverses" ...
why only Two if it's just Marvel?
If it's just Marvel why are they never referenced, ever, in a cosmic hierarchy setting?
Furthermore, if it's just Marvel, who the heck is this "spectral ally" in LT's camp?

So, you see B W, I know I'm on the right side of things but it's still incomplete.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Board Walker

Your opinion is purely your own, it is not the same as that held by Marvel or by DC. You likely to imagine that your opinion as well as your SUBJECTIVE interpretations are the same as Marvel or DC so that you can assign validation to them, and use this as a means of justification to value your opinion over that of others. All you are doing is creating your own psychological construct that allows you raise the value of your opinion over another.
I have to disagree here. How can my opinion be "my own" when it's shared by the writerS/artistS of DC vs Marvel,
and it's also corroborated by the Head writer of all Marvel Handbooks
who created the profile of the Brothers with said writers/artists from DC vs Marvel.

That encapsulation of my posts you just rendered should really be focused on the other gents in this thread.

I posted on panel scans plus a mammoth amount of secondary official endorsers of the same idea.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Board Walker

This makes much more sense, okay I understand your interpretation now.
smile
Originally posted by Board Walker

My point is that the brothers may be megaverses within the Marvel company (but since all of Marvel is a singular Omniverse/Megaverse I don't see how this is likely true)
I agree.

That's the crux of the matter.

I already stated that if there is a "Marvel Brother" ... it's all of Marvel, just like before.
In the X-Men story, whoever they were (putting my point aside for a sec)
they were portrayed as the "Beginning and End" ... reads pretty "final" to me.

Which is also why it doesn't make sense if it's just Marvel.
Originally posted by Board Walker

but that one of them does not represent DC. That is the only point I'm trying to make here, that even post of the non canon crossover, both of those brothers are Marvel megaverses and not Marvel+Dc.
I understand your point and will respect your opinion.
But I hope you understood that this initially was a joint project involving DC. (at-least the Brother)

So, there is no question that at the story's inception, the Brothers depicted were DC and Marvel.

Come to think of it, while I know that's true, I don't see the point of it.
I don't see the point of this detail jammed into the X-Men story.
I suppose it's because the Mkraan Crystal blew up, cool, but why would this affect DC?

Nonsense. It was the idea I guess, but nonsese.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Board Walker
This makes much more sense, okay I understand your interpretation now.

My point is that the brothers may be megaverses within the Marvel company (but since all of Marvel is a singular Omniverse/Megaverse I don't see how this is likely true), but that one of them does not represent DC. That is the only point I'm trying to make here, that even post of the non canon crossover, both of those brothers are Marvel megaverses and not Marvel+Dc.

thumb up At least you succeeded to hammer some reason in his thick skull ^^.

Board Walker
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
thumb up At least you succeeded to hammer some reason in his thick skull ^^.

I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Board Walker
I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

You should change your name to Saint Walker. big grin

Mr Master
Originally posted by Board Walker

I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.
laughing out loud ... awhh, thanx a mill BW.

Time Immemorial
Geeze and all I wanted to know was who you guys thought was more powerful. stick out tongue

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Geeze and all I wanted to know was who you guys thought was more powerful. stick out tongue

LT once Marvel became an Omniverse. Beyonder when Marvel was still a Multiverse.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
LT once Marvel became an Omniverse. Beyonder when Marvel was still a Multiverse.

Simple enough answer, thank you.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Time Immemorial

Geeze and all I wanted to know was who you guys thought was more powerful.
Classic Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the one and only LT there's ever been.

The prime Multiverse is already "infinite" ... yet Beyonder was ridiculous times bigger than that "infinity,"
in scale and power.

Any other "multiverse" in Marvel is meaningless concerning cosmic scale power,
since well ... there is none.
Literally, there is no other Eternity or Infinity or cosmic hierarchy or Franklin copies,
or anything note worthy of any kind cosmically speaking in any other multiverse.

The only other realm of any consequence is the Post-retcon Beyond Realm,
which is basically what the old one used to be but now with an entire race of BeyonderS inside it.

All that matters is the prime Multiverse in terms of cosmic power aside from the Beyond Realm.

Galan007
These days there are infinite multiverses within the Marvel omniverse:
http://i.imgur.com/vjXSeP2.jpg

And LT exists in, and acts as the judge of, all multiverses simultaneously:
http://i.imgur.com/xu1buLd.jpg


Yes, Beyonder was certainly millions of times more powerful than the multiversal LT of 1985, but LT's scope/range of power has grown, well, by an infinite, infinitude since then. Not saying he would defeat Beyonder, but I definitely understand where the others are coming from.

Mr Master
^^ I was discussing this with our friend Leo, this is his perfect take on that detail you're pointing out:
Originally posted by leonidas

(let's agree and assume for a moment lt's 'territory DID grow, that in no way presupposes he became more 'powerful'.
like a sheriff who was sheriff of a small town became sheriff of a larger town--
his gun is still the same size, he's not physically mroe powerful,
he just has more territory to cover.

where is the idea that lt's power is somehow equated to the amount of 'territory' he oversees....?

i'd LOVE to see evidence that lt is actually more powerful than he used to be
Which is true, there is no proof imo.
Originally posted by Galan007

These days there are infinite multiverses within the Marvel omniverse:

And LT exists in, and acts as the judge of, all multiverses simultaneously:

Yes, Beyonder was certainly millions of times more powerful than the multiversal LT of 1985, but LT's scope/range of power has grown, well, by an infinite, infinitude since then.
But G, these are a bunch of meaningless "multiverseS" as you know:

There is no cosmic hierarchy or cosmic powers in any other multiverse
aside from the one that houses the 616 reality & the retcon Beyond Realm.

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21508311_MU_bio.jpg


I just told Leo this:

Which is interesting cause writers have had Roma "omniversal" status
state, that Eternity is something akin to the "omniverse?"

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21508321_AB2.jpg


She again, calls Eternity and Infinity the conceptualzation of Space and Time:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21508320_Roma_ET_IF.jpg


Oh, and not just "Time" ... but "All of Time"

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21508325_AB3.jpg


Roma, lableled "Guardian of the Multiverse" many times:

http://i.imgur.com/lPn5SHJ.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/Wi0y4Mi.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/LBAlpKb.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/HyKiJxq.jpg?1

Bios too:

http://i.imgur.com/LauEvnK.jpg?3
http://i.imgur.com/plKAC0n.jpg?2
http://i.imgur.com/P7MYnax.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/kvHpf4T.jpg?2

This is because this is really all that matters. The prime Multiverse.

leonidas
to be clear--i'm not saying that lt DOESN'T have more....range nowadays. just that authority and power seem to be, invalidly, being conflated here. i for one would love to see some proof of lt's 'increased power'. it makes no sense imo to assume just because he has more area to cover that he suddenly possesses more 'personal power'. it could (and without proof likely SHOULD) simply imply he has more AUTHORITY over a greater area.

least imo.

operator616
More Range = more power. Which is why multiversal beings are above universal. I think we all know that, and that's all the proof you need, Leo.

Pretty simple really.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ I was discussing this with our friend Leo, this is his perfect take on that detail you're pointing out:

Which is true, there is no proof imo. In 1985, LT existed in, and judged, one multiverse. Nowadays, he exists in, and judges, infinite multiverseS simultaneously.

Point: where scope/range is concerned, the LT of today is FAR beyond the LT of then--omniversal compared to multiversal. That said, does an infinite increase in scope/range mean he received an infinite increase in raw power by proxy? Maybe, maybe not. However, I think the opinion that he may have is a logical one. /shrug

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

to be clear--i'm not saying that lt DOESN'T have more....range nowadays. just that authority and power seem to be, invalidly, being conflated here. i for one would love to see some proof of lt's 'increased power'. it makes no sense imo to assume just because he has more area to cover that he suddenly possesses more 'personal power'. it could (and without proof likely SHOULD) simply imply he has more AUTHORITY over a greater area.

least imo.
thumb up ... I agree that Marvel has more space outside the prime Multiverse,
it's just that I've come to realize it's inconsequential space.
Originally posted by Galan007
In 1985, LT existed in, and judged, one multiverse. Nowadays, he exists in, and judges, infinite multiverseS simultaneously.

Point: where scope/range is concerned, the LT of today is FAR beyond the LT of then--omniversal compared to multiversal.
I agree.
Originally posted by Galan007

That said, does an infinite increase in scope/range mean he received an infinite increase in raw power by proxy? Maybe, maybe not. However, I think the opinion that he may have is a logical one. /shrug
Fair enuff. I disagree with that opinion, but,
if there had been other Eternities/Infinities/cosmics/etc in other multiverses I would have agreed with you.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the LT is "omniversal" ... (I suppose)
although it's strange cause I've never seen the LT in another multiverse,
the "D of M" is outside Eternity yet intrinsically tied to him,
and iirc the LT can't even judge something from another multiverse if it enters the prime multiverse.

Like the Starbrand, like Rune, etc. Which is a huge wtf in my book.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Board Walker
I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

That is why you are the Prophet of El

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
More Range = more power. Which is why multiversal beings are above universal. I think we all know that, and that's all the proof you need, Leo.

Pretty simple really.

not really. authority only has a limited conflation with power, and it's inconsistent. what authority did molecule man have? what 'range'? what about wyncham? no 'range' to speak of. even thanos with the ig had a tiny'range' compared to lt but his power approached lt's own. these are just off the top of my head and i've no doubt you and others can come up with better examples. i am surprised that so many willingly ascribe to such a fallacious equation. using that logic, roma should be the most uber of all in the omniverse. there is no reason at all to suppose that lt increased in personal power, nor that he needed to.

personally i don't very much care about the issue, and it MAY be that we CAN somehow, arbitrarily grant lt more power, but i'd be willing to wager that in terms of the 'marvel comic reality' lt is and would be considered the same now as he was then. you, and others, as readers, have granted him greater power based on this 'outside' perspective you have as a reader. that's not a perspective the characters themselves have, nor should it be assumed that said outside perspective would impact the comic book world. it bears repeating: there is absolutely zero on panel proof to suggest lt has somehow received this accredited 'amp'. the logic you cite isn't enough imo to come to that conclusion. at all.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
In 1985, LT existed in, and judged, one multiverse. Nowadays, he exists in, and judges, infinite multiverseS simultaneously.

Point: where scope/range is concerned, the LT of today is FAR beyond the LT of then--omniversal compared to multiversal. That said, does an infinite increase in scope/range mean he received an infinite increase in raw power by proxy? Maybe, maybe not. However, I think the opinion that he may have is a logical one. /shrug

well, there's that old kubik scan that indicated even YEARS back that lt oversaw multiverses, but i agree with your premise. like i said--it MAY be that we can suppose lt has been amped somehow, but i think it equally logical imo to believe he has remained exactly the same in terms of personal power.

but let's suppose for a moment he IS amped? as you said, by how much? i guess i just don't see the need to say he's more powerful, nor of course do i see the proof of his increased power. imo he's the same now as he was then but i don't think it's an issue that can be objectively proven. shrug

Mr Master
^^ Nice points Leo.

I also just realized something friends: The LT has no judgemental cases outside Eternity/Infinity imo.

If there is no cosmic hierarchy, and no cosmic scale powers in other multiverses,
why would the LT even need to survey these realms?

The LT's purpose is to address an imbalance of cosmic power,
but, any of us would be hard pressed to find a galaxy buster from another multiverse.
Heck, even the Starbrand (in its prime) was but global in the New Universe.
(and that was the uber power of that entire multiverse)

One other thing,
the LT plays in other multiverseS according to one writer, Kaminski,
while the rest of Marvel writers including the Head handbook writer Jeff Christiansen state
that the LT is solely attached to the prime Multiverse.

It's almost as though yes, there are other realities outside the prime multiverse,
but it seems they're like in a world of their own.

Yet, I've seen the LT mention an omniversal constant and even Galactus,
so it just doesn't make sense.

Then we have the scenario with the BrotherS,
which after close examination in this thread I came to the conclusion
they make no sense as sole Marvel megaverses. They make no sense period.

Mr Master
I'm serious friends, after years of going one way, I've been considering for some time
that these terms are interchangable (omniverse and multiverse) but not always.
The funny thing is that to me the term "megaverse" is the odd ball out.

Because for Marvel,
it should be either or (omniverse/megaverse) same meaning imo = all universes pertaining to said company.

But better yet, Marvel should stop using the term "omniverse" cause that confuses shit,
they should stick to "megaverse" to represent them entirely,
and leave "omniverse" as everything including other companies. (as it was meant ot be)

Kinda strange, I'm enjoying this discussion now. Thankfully true debators joined the dialogue.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Smoki
@Mr Master. You smart guy should work for the marvel company. You are a legend across many comic book debating forums like crb and comicvine and naruto amongst others. I bet you could land a job as a special consultant involving all that crazy cosmo stuff. It is a pleasure to watch you post. Originally posted by unknowable
Yeah Mr M is pretty much the kmc scholar of marvel cosmic entertainment and this thread is just one example of his incredible knowledge. You should also check out Galan and Operator616 posts they are also wizards in this department. I will say the monumental rivalries of GS vs Mr M are not around anymore in this area of comics, and I think it is because there is too much ignorance trying to discuss stories with the pros. They should ask instead of arguing for argument's sake. Originally posted by eaebiekuya
holy proof batman! so the guy who created the brothers bio is the like the man in charge of all marvel handbooks but he also made the brothers bio with the help of 3 writers from the actual story dc vs marvel who created the brothers to begin with and prior to that the story with the x-men was co-written by dc's executive editor mike carlin. this is fascinating i never would have imagined any of this until this thread. it all makes perfect sense the brothers' connected to the x-men story because i never got how a few months after dc vs marvel marvel just took the characters and made them theirs that is crazy. so thank u mr m. Originally posted by Killemall
thumb up I never noticed this happened three months after Dc vs Marvel. It's in your face obvious that these characters are the same. It would be retarded for Marvel or Dc to make replicas of characters of either company. Or was it a lack of creativity? lol. I still wasn't convinced until mr m highlighted the fact that mike carlin worked on the X-Men story and three writers from Dc vs Marvel helped write the Brothers bio. The three writers were aware of alll the information in this bio since they helped write it. If the writers of the damn story are tellng me that's what it is, then there's no need for guessing. First appearance Dc vs Marvel - Other appearances Adventures of the X-Men.

@Smoki. I'm from Comicvine and I'm well known with this same name. I can vouch for Mr M's fame at my site. Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Wow, all this back to back love for ol' Mr Mastah, ... were yall just standing by awaiting your moment? lol.
Sincerely thanx yall. smile
While I appreciate the recognition friends,
don't yall believe for one moment it will divert the intransigence I'm dealing with here.
So take my advice and do what I decided to do last night,
just ignore the obtuse consistancy, which means the thread is dead.
There really isn't anymore to say anyway, the evidence I presented can't be countered so ... peace and love yall.

I have no doubt a return of more unsupported personal theories,
senseless speculations and outright fallacies is imminent.

So, I'm done.
What is this? Some kind of parade when you can't make your own arguments? Are you that much of chicken? Lets tear your whole argument apart, shall we?

1) You said that Adv. of X-men 12 retconned DC vs Marvel.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/183000/unlimitedaccess2p13-182541.jpg

Here is Unlimited Access mentioning the events of DC vs Marvel in 1998.

But that shouldn't be possible, right?

Yeah, that does no good for your already down cred.
Totally false.

2)Then you flip-flopped and said that it only changed their status and not their history.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh really? I was hoping you say something like that.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/183000/unlimited-access-01-36-182608.jpg

Explain how they were still the personofication of DC and Marvel one year later.

Again false.

3)Then you again flip-flopped and said that the brothers were still personification of DC/Marvel yet LT/Spectre's "*****".Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Whatever. Yes, you're better off getting personal than sticking to the debate.

You have the audacity to highlight my "rep," which is perplexing with your history.

no expression

Did you not comprehend my post?

I clearly stated, that nothing changed except for the LT and Spectre being portrayed as above them.

Therefore, they were still the "embodiments" of DC/Marvel, but then (Adv of X-Men) LT's & Spectre's b*tch evidently.
I asked you to provide the proof when I know you don't have any. Now you're parading your "cheerleaders" and accusing me of making fallacies?

Laughable. Be a man and do your own work. And don't flip-flop ten times in two pages.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Galan007
These days there are infinite multiverses within the Marvel omniverse:
http://i.imgur.com/vjXSeP2.jpg

And LT exists in, and acts as the judge of, all multiverses simultaneously:
http://i.imgur.com/xu1buLd.jpg


Yes, Beyonder was certainly millions of times more powerful than the multiversal LT of 1985, but LT's scope/range of power has grown, well, by an infinite, infinitude since then. Not saying he would defeat Beyonder, but I definitely understand where the others are coming from.

thumb up

@galan&Leo, This is like most threads about opinions, I gave mine, nothing more nothing less, I don't think that my opinion is a fact or the ultimate truth, thankfully I am not that pretentious yet, but I am glad that someone at least gave my reasoning a chance.

@discussion, In my opinion. LT during Marvels Multiverse time, was the judge of that Multiverse, his greatest judgement was the Supernova IIRC and he was "repelled" by an alternate Reed Richards IIRC. His power as a Multiversal judge however was supposed to be ehm, Multiversal. Later however, when Marvel became a Omniverse/Megaverse, he held two Megaverses in his hands, represented by the two Marvel Brothers, and even denied them their conflict for now, even though they were supposed to be Megaversal. This implies that he was more powerful than two Megaversal beings. If he is more powerful now than earlier will be seen once we know who killed him.

DC has it's own Omniverse, as oxmoronic as this might sound, Superman didn't save the Marvel U and all other companies by vibrating in his comic back then^^. So the DC Omniverse exists apart from the Marvel Ominverse. Also the DC Universe Brother never appeared in a Marvel exclusive comic nor did the Spectre.

That is just my stance^^.

What I have seen as annoying was the cherrypicking of quotes and words, like "all of time (+WOW)" but then ignoring Omniverse and other stuff. That is not debating, that is twisting selected quotes and scans, accompanied by extremly subjective wall of text, in order to force tis subjective opinion upon others like it is a fact. Just saiyan.

Mr Master
Originally posted by abhilegend

Are you that much of chicken? Lets tear your whole argument apart, shall we?
laughing ... poor scorned child.
Originally posted by abhilegend

1) You said that Adv. of X-men 12 retconned DC vs Marvel.
Totally false.
2)Then you flip-flopped and said that it only changed their status and not their history.
Again false.
3)Then you again flip-flopped and said that the brothers were still personification of DC/Marvel yet LT/Spectre's "*****".
I asked you to provide the proof when I know you don't have any.
dur ... This thread was picking up interest ... why'd you have to return?
Originally posted by abhilegend

Now you're parading your "cheerleaders" and accusing me of making fallacies?
I could care less if idiots wanna play games, if they're real, nice,
if not, my pet iguana farts, same relevance.

As for "fallacies" .. yes, you are the forum's clown.

You get owned daily, and your reputation as an intransigent bafoon has tainted our forum.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Laughable. Be a man and do your own work. And don't flip-flop ten times in two pages.
Yea, yea, this is what you're well known for: That is ... wasting serious debator's time.

I remember I tried to debate with you once before regarding Thor Corps mini #1-4,
when you lied back to back, like arranging random scans in order to fit your fallacies.

Yea, remember chump right here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=596828&pagenumber=7

laughing out loud You tried to push the idea that one has to control the concept of "Time"
in order to open a Dimensional portal to another time-period. (false)

You were unequivocally wrong! I proved it, but you persisted and were proven wrong repeatedly,
yet you could not stop yourself from continuing on with the bull shit.

** So, you picked the wrong fight son.
Stick to attacking me personally,
at-least that's just an empty meanngless shit-filled opinion
I can't dismantle with scanned proof like everything else you post concerning Marvel.

DarkSaint85
....you have a pet iguana?

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
serious debator's time.


http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/chloe-meme-original.jpg

Mr Master
^^ Yea, might as well troll.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

This is like most threads about opinions, I gave mine, nothing more nothing less, I don't think that my opinion is a fact or the ultimate truth, thankfully I am not that pretentious yet, but I am glad that someone at least gave my reasoning a chance.
Leo doesn't agree that the LT grew in power.
There is no on panel or handbook evidence of any kind that sugests this either.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

LT during Marvels Multiverse time, was the judge of that Multiverse
Which was all of canon Marvel at the time. So, LT was the judge of everything.

Beyond Realm was disconnected.

Btw. Does anyone have proof of the LT judging anything in another multiverse? no

But we do have evidence that the LT (even if he's more powerful than) CAN'T judge something from another multiverse:

eg. Starbrand and Rune.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

his greatest judgement was the Supernova IIRC
Which is nonsense. That 1982 "What If" story really pissed on itself.

Anyway, the LT ripped Korvac's entire universe from the multiverse by encasing it in an impenetrable barrier.

That's at-least pure universal manipulation for ya,
but yet, LT decides to use a puny sun against a guy who absorbed Celestials and cosmics? no expression

Instead of his own personal at-least universal manipulating power.

Dumb shit.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

and he was "repelled" by an alternate Reed Richards IIRC.
PIS, which has never been reference in any handbook that I know of.

That aside, Reed never did anything directly to the LT.

The LT & Cosmics merged their powers into a ball of energy,
then Reed shot his Galactus killing canon into the concentrated ball of energy,
this then cause a feedback bfring LT and cosmics.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

His power as a Multiversal judge however was supposed to be ehm, Multiversal.
To this day, I've never seen the LT called anything other than the "Multiversal Judge."

There is nothing of significance for the LT to judge in other multiverses.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Later however, when Marvel became a Omniverse/Megaverse, he held two Megaverses in his hands, represented by the two Marvel Brothers, and even denied them their conflict for now, even though they were supposed to be Megaversal. This implies that he was more powerful than two Megaversal beings.
Actually, that scene with the Brothers is a representation of DC and Marvel.

Brothers were never two Marvel megaverses. I'm 100% confident in that fact nowadays.

In fact, up until the 2007 bios, Marvel (officially) was a single Megaverse,
so, unless the LT held two Marvel companies in his hand, it makes no sense.

Still puts him above all of Marvel though, so we can agree on that.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

DC has it's own Omniverse, as oxmoronic as this might sound, Superman didn't save the Marvel U and all other companies by vibrating in his comic back then^^. So the DC Omniverse exists apart from the Marvel Ominverse. Also the DC Universe Brother never appeared in a Marvel exclusive comic nor did the Spectre.
We agree, Supes did nothing for Marvel, just like Wanda didn't re-creat DC.
Which is why I stated earlier that using the term "omniverse" confuses shit.
and both companies should just use "megaverse" to represent their entirety.

As far as the story "Adv. of the X-Men" is concerned,
there is no doubt that was the original plot of the story,
which was, DC Brother and Spectre were involved in that one scenario.

Imo though, it was completely pointless to add that to the story.
I still can't grasp what DC's Mike Carlin was trying to achieve here.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

What I have seen as annoying was the cherrypicking of quotes and words, like "all of time (+WOW)" but then ignoring Omniverse and other stuff. That is not debating, that is twisting selected quotes and scans, accompanied by extremly subjective wall of text, in order to force tis subjective opinion upon others like it is a fact. Just saiyan.
Your other points while mostly wrong were on topic.

This on the other hand is gibberish.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
not really. authority only has a limited conflation with power, and it's inconsistent. what authority did molecule man have? what 'range'? what about wyncham? no 'range' to speak of. even thanos with the ig had a tiny'range' compared to lt but his power approached lt's own. these are just off the top of my head and i've no doubt you and others can come up with better examples. i am surprised that so many willingly ascribe to such a fallacious equation. using that logic, roma should be the most uber of all in the omniverse. there is no reason at all to suppose that lt increased in personal power, nor that he needed to.

personally i don't very much care about the issue, and it MAY be that we CAN somehow, arbitrarily grant lt more power, but i'd be willing to wager that in terms of the 'marvel comic reality' lt is and would be considered the same now as he was then. you, and others, as readers, have granted him greater power based on this 'outside' perspective you have as a reader. that's not a perspective the characters themselves have, nor should it be assumed that said outside perspective would impact the comic book world. it bears repeating: there is absolutely zero on panel proof to suggest lt has somehow received this accredited 'amp'. the logic you cite isn't enough imo to come to that conclusion. at all.

I get your point, and even though i think that the Sheriff analogy is inapplicable to LT's - and any cosmic character's - case, consider this: Do you honestly believe that the LT who was exhibiting megaversal-level powers in the late 90s is on the same level as the one who was struggling against Nebulos pre-SW2?

Just saying.

Also, you're looking for an official statement regarding LT's amp. But that's not how things always work in comics. Silver Age Spectre never got any official amp from his Golden Age days. Yet, anyone who actually read those eras, would tell you that there is a significant difference between their respective power-levels. Same thing goes to Mangog, Ion, etc...The amp doesn't have to be stated. As long as it's observable, it can be applied. You get my point?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm serious friends, after years of going one way, I've been considering for some time
that these terms are interchangable (omniverse and multiverse) but not always.
The funny thing is that to me the term "megaverse" is the odd ball out.

Because for Marvel,
it should be either or (omniverse/megaverse) same meaning imo = all universes pertaining to said company.

But better yet, Marvel should stop using the term "omniverse" cause that confuses shit,
they should stick to "megaverse" to represent them entirely,
and leave "omniverse" as everything including other companies. (as it was meant ot be)

Kinda strange, I'm enjoying this discussion now. Thankfully true debators joined the dialogue.

I already said this to you in the other thread, not sure if you read it. Asteroth outright mentioned that she was going to destroy "all megaverses" in 2005, implying that there are multiple megaverses in Marvel (along with the LT instance). While the omniverse has never been used in plural not does it make any sense to.

So yeah, omniverse > megaverse > multiverse (Within Marvel comics).

And you're confusing the terms based on the context in which it's being used.

From a broader perspective, the term "omniverse" means all fiction and all possible universes, while a megaverse becomes the collection of all universes/multiverses in a certain company (like Marvel). And that's why the term "megaverse" is defined as such in the handbooks, because it's defined from a broader perspective which considers all of fiction as an omniverse and Marvel is just a part of it, that's why Marvel is regarded as being a megaverse only.

From a narrower perspective (When the terms are used within Marvel comics), the term "omniverse" does equate to all universes/multiverses/megaverses within Marvel, while a megaverse equated to multiple multiverses like you have been saying previously.

Galan007
Kubik: "The Tribunal exists in all multiverseS simultaneously, always prepared to enact judgement."

If there were nothing of significance in said infinitude of multiverseS, I doubt LT would waste his time existing in, and judging, them. wink

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

I get your point, and even though i think that the Sheriff analogy is inapplicable to LT's - and any cosmic character's - case, consider this: Do you honestly believe that the LT who was exhibiting megaversal-level powers in the late 90s is on the same level as the one who was struggling against Nebulos pre-SW2?
Nebulos was a 1967 story, when just about no one gave a crap about obscure characters like the LT.
That's not an excuse, it's jst times were more tamed back then.

That aside, that was Nebulos' only appearances and his great power wasn't within himself,
but that pissy Staff of his, which was able to absorb LT's energy attacks.

That's a plot device no different than Protege copying powers.
Originally posted by operator616

Also, you're looking for an official statement regarding LT's amp. But that's not how things always work in comics. Silver Age Spectre never got any official amp from his Golden Age days. Yet, anyone who actually read those eras, would tell you that there is a significant difference between their respective power-levels. Same thing goes to Mangog, Ion, The amp doesn't have to be stated. As long as it's observable, it can be applied. You get my point?
I disagree, concerning the LT since those examples do not apply to him even indirectly.
Originally posted by operator616

I already said this to you in the other thread, not sure if you read it.
Asteroth outright mentioned that she was going to destroy "all megaverses" in 2005, implying that there are multiple megaverses in Marvel (along with the LT instance). While the omniverse has never been used in plural not does it make any sense to.
Reads like hyperbole to me.

Perhaps a single rogue writer talking out of his ass using improper terms?

And the "Omniverse" has been used in plural: X-O Man/Iron Man CCU madness. Senseless. Actually rogue writers.
Originally posted by operator616

So yeah, omniverse > megaverse > multiverse (Within Marvel comics).
I hear you, it just doesn't make sense anymore.
Originally posted by operator616

And you're confusing the terms based on the context in which it's being used.

From a broader perspective, the term "omniverse" means all fiction and all possible universes, while a megaverse becomes the collection of all universes/multiverses in a certain company (like Marvel). And that's why the term "megaverse" is defined as such in the handbooks, because it's defined from a broader perspective which considers all of fiction as an omniverse and Marvel is just a part of it, that's why Marvel is regarded as being a megaverse only.

From a narrower perspective (When the terms are used within Marvel comics), the term "omniverse" does equate to all universes/multiverses/megaverses within Marvel, while a megaverse equated to multiple multiverses like you have been saying previously.
I think Marvel writers are the ones confusing things.

All these endless multiverseS, and now multiple megaverseS ...
yet, we've seen what? 2, maybe 3 other/different multiverses only.

That's a long, long way from infinite multiverses, and then beyond that a grouping of infinities. (mega)

Yet, the Marvel cosmic hierarchy stays the same since 1985:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21516922_Cosmic_hierarchy1.jpg

1992:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/21516976_Cosmic_hierarchy3.jpg

2014:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21516924_Cosmic_hierarchy2.jpg

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Mr Master
To this day, I've never seen the LT called anything other than the "Multiversal Judge."

There is nothing of significance for the LT to judge in other multiverses.


Yet he held two Marvel Megaverses in his hand and even had power of the two Marvel Megaverse-Guardian-Brothers.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, that scene with the Brothers is a representation of DC and Marvel.

Brothers were never two Marvel megaverses. I'm 100% confident in that fact nowadays.

In fact, up until the 2007 bios, Marvel (officially) was a single Megaverse,
so, unless the LT held two Marvel companies in his hand, it makes no sense.


That is your opinion but I disagree to 100%. Marvel didn't dare to include Spectre in their comic, neither drawn nor by direct name, they had no right to use DC or make it a Megaverse. They simply can't use DC in their books, neither chars nor Universes. So it isn't DC, simple as that. Thoe Megaverses represent Marvel and if the totality of Marvel is in one of those two Megaverses, the other one is still a part of the Marvel Ominiverse but no other company. Marvel can dream about being able to have the right to dictate whatr other companies are, but this is just arrogant and meaningless and everything but official or a true.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Still puts him above all of Marvel though, so we can agree on that.

Till we learn what killed him.

Originally posted by Mr Master

We agree, Supes did nothing for Marvel, just like Wanda didn't re-creat DC.
Which is why I stated earlier that using the term "omniverse" confuses shit.
and both companies should just use "megaverse" to represent their entirety.


But they don't. DC sees itself as an Omniverse and that is what it officially is, an DC Omniverse, where Marvel isn't represented except by rip offs or homages. The same is true for Marvel.
No other opinion on this should matter, only the official stance of the companies and if they differ, you take for canon what the company says about itself not about others. That is in my eyes the most logical stance.

Originally posted by Mr Master

As far as the story "Adv. of the X-Men" is concerned,
there is no doubt that was the original plot of the story,
which was, DC Brother and Spectre were involved in that one scenario.

Imo though, it was completely pointless to add that to the story.
I still can't grasp what DC's Mike Carlin was trying to achieve here.

Your other points while mostly wrong were on topic.

This on the other hand is gibberish.

Adv. of the X-Men is still a Marvel exclusive book without DCs consens, i mean the company, nor it's logo. Spectre never appeared there nor did DCs Brother or the DC Verse. That is purely your opinion, but to each his own I guess.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Yea, might as well troll.


Leo doesn't agree that the LT grew in power.
There is no on panel or handbook evidence of any kind that sugests this either.


It is not about agreeing, they both see the reasoning behind my stance and understand it. You don't have to agree in order to still be able to see the point of view of others just by giving it a chance. There is nothing bad with disagreeing btw, nor with having differen't opinions but once people try to force their opinion upon others, without seeing the possibility of those other opinions being duh possible too, it starts to get ugly.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Which was all of canon Marvel at the time. So, LT was the judge of everything.

Beyond Realm was disconnected.

Btw. Does anyone have proof of the LT judging anything in another multiverse? no

But we do have evidence that the LT (even if he's more powerful than) CAN'T judge something from another multiverse:

eg. Starbrand and Rune.


And everything was smaller than it is now.

Yes, the proof is in his hand, two Megeverses (multiple Multiverses) where he let's those Marvel Brothers wait for their show. If that is not a judgement or display of power over those Megaverses...

Originally posted by Mr Master


Which is nonsense. That 1982 "What If" story really pissed on itself.

Anyway, the LT ripped Korvac's entire universe from the multiverse by encasing it in an impenetrable barrier.

That's at-least pure universal manipulation for ya,
but yet, LT decides to use a puny sun against a guy who absorbed Celestials and cosmics? no expression

Instead of his own personal at-least universal manipulating power.

Dumb shit.

PIS, which has never been reference in any handbook that I know of.

That aside, Reed never did anything directly to the LT.

The LT & Cosmics merged their powers into a ball of energy,
then Reed shot his Galactus killing canon into the concentrated ball of energy,
this then cause a feedback bfring LT and cosmics.


PIS or not it happened. Later he had no problem with handling Megaversal abstracts...

But we are again in a field of opinions, so to each his own.

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