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*Sidious has essence transfer and drain disabled

*4 Characters max

*No Caedus, Tenebrous, Plagueis, Yoda, Luke, Abeloth +ones

*Moves like drain/dark transfer/essence transfer/ are all disabled for your team.


Sidious

vs. your team

Reborn Krayt, RotJ Vader and Exar Kun

You need one more

Follow the rules, come on I trained you better than this

K.

Adding DoE Bane.....hmm he dies quite quickly though.....maybe better add Malgus

Bane would get blitzed, what are you thinking?

And I spent money on your private education..

Originally posted by carthage
Bane would get blitzed, what are you thinking?
I thought it would be funny, no?

Bane dying never gets old.

Originally posted by carthage
And I spent money on your private education..
Money best spent so far, but much to leearn I still have in the ways of the force. biscuits

Under the tutelage of the KMC academy ye shall learn much, just avoid the Tempest as he cannot seem to respond to a query and runs and hides behind memes when challenged.

You have been warned, my son

Originally posted by carthage
Under the tutelage of the KMC academy ye shall learn much, just avoid the Tempest as he cannot seem to respond to a query and runs and hides behind memes when challenged.

You have been warned, my son
I submit to your teachings.

A day will come that, together, we will rid the forums of the stigma
of Tempest and rule with an iron fist, with Bane fanbois at our feet.

Tempest is more than a Stigma, his odious miasma permeates this hallowed place from the atmosphere to the core. He cannot even respond to my inquiries without resorting to hashtags and memes. He cannot be trusted..anymore...

He is lost.

Originally posted by carthage
Tempest is more than a Stigma, his odious miasma permeates this hallowed place from the atmosphere to the core. He cannot even respond to my inquiries without resorting to hashtags and memes. He cannot be trusted..anymore...

He is lost.
Thus we will see him tremble and fall.

Oh, how the mighty Temp has fallen, a mere shadow of his former self. Stigmatized to be hunted and, ultimately, eradicated.

Kun, Obi-wan, Vader, Mace Windu.

Mace Windu + who cares.

Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, Darth Traya and Nomi Sunrider as a BM support

Darth Krayt, Revan, Darth Maul, Darth Nox

Oppo, Mace, Kolar, and Anakin.

Revan and three Banes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace Windu + who cares.

Revan, Malak, the Exile, and Bastila Shan for BM.

Revan first. Krayt of course. Hot Dath nox.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace Windu + who cares. This.

Only one. Mace Windy. Except this time there is no Anakin

Revan + HoT is a good anti palpatine like combot.
After you can god with Dart nox emperor's wrath Vitiate Krayt.

Windu don't mach sidious, in any where he is only at 19% of his ability (That's hudge if you think...)
Palpatine was just a master of scene deguisement.... You know what does it mean? Of course you know...

Actually Mace was stalemating Sidious until the later threw the fight. But had the fight not been interrupted I would be curious to see who would win

Revan 3.1 update solos Sidious, this is Revan Reincarnated+remerged with his lightside.

He solo but that's not because he is more powerfull....
Bantha.. Everybody know than it will be no dout than sidious would just kill Mace in no time, because the interruption was apart of the plan.... Sidious could have killed windu earlier !!!!!

And I suggest Vitiate because palpatine will be really exhausted in 1V.S1 after deafeating him (if he win...)
So imagine Vitiate + someone able to resist sidious (as Revan or HoT for example)
That's a a combo that can strike sidious with a 9.97/10 !
Needn't to be 4.

It's completly uesless to take somone who can't resist sidious, because if you don't have the lvl sidious O.S you in no time.... Kit fisto for example, don't have the lvl, O.S and at the end it's just a Mace V.S Sidious. his presence was completly useless.

If Mace has aid from just 1 more Jedi/Sith, someone around Maul level or above, then I think his victory is pretty much guaranteed.
But there's not many combatants on that level. I'd say even Kenobi would be useless, as his defensive mastery doesn't do well aiding someone else to overpower a more powerful opponent. Plus he has a history of getting Tk ragdolled/KO'd.

If Mace gets help from 3 other combatants however, then any 3 Council Members will likely do the trick. They'll die, but Mace will likely win.

Darth Vader, Lumiya, Galen Marek

Originally posted by ILS
Darth Vader, Lumiya, Galen Marek

ooooh, Nice list. That would be a deadly combo.

Darth Vader would get blitz just like Tiin and Kolar imo.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Darth Vader would get blitz just like Tiin and Kolar imo.

A weaker incarnation of Vader could keep up with Maul and Maul didnt get blitzed by Sidious so why would Vader peak get blitzed?

Well, it was also a weaker incarnation of Maul. Besides, it really depends on your definition of a blitz--He didn't get one shotted, but it was made clear in shadow conspiracy that when Sidious got serious, his speed was far too great for Maul to handle.

Originally posted by Sinious
A weaker incarnation of Vader could keep up with Maul and Maul didnt get blitzed by Sidious so why would Vader peak get blitzed?

What ? Being keep up with someone doesn't mean they are at the same speed. Qui-Gon managed to keep up with Maul, but Maul was faster.

If there is too much difference in speed, for example Sidious = 9, Mau & Dooku = 8.2 and Vader = 7.4 , Maul and Dooku can react to Sidious, but Vader can't. Vader can keep up with Maul & Dooku, but only for some degree.

For example, Tiin and Kolar were like 6.8 or 6.9, since there is too much difference in terms of speed, they would get speed blitz from Sidious. That doesn't mean Maul and Dooku could do the same to Agen and Tiin, just because they can react to Sidious.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, it was also a weaker incarnation of Maul. Besides, it really depends on your definition of a blitz--He didn't get one shotted, but it was made clear in shadow conspiracy that when Sidious got serious, his speed was far too great for Maul to handle.

Of course. I meant getting one-shotted as thats what Marco meant too.

Originally posted by Marco1907

If there is too much difference in speed, for example Sidious = 9, Mau & Dooku = 8.2 and Vader = 7.4 , Maul and Dooku can react to Sidious, but Vader can't. Vader can keep up with Maul & Dooku, but only for some degree.

Is Vader really that below Dooku and Maul though?

sigh

Originally posted by Sinious
Is Vader really that below Dooku and Maul though?

If you count his low end feats, yes he should be. Because I won't ignore these battles, because no one mocked with Maul and Dooku's speed in any comic, or no one teleported behind of Maul and Dooku (Chona Bene teleported behind Vader) , or no one land a blow to Maul or Dooku via using agility.

Not to mention, by Lucas and starwars.com, TPM Maul should be considerably faster than RotJ Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
sigh

@ Ant, I saw that. Is he trolling though? Doesn't he always point out how slow Vader is?

He's either trolling or thinks Savage Opress is faster then Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's either trolling or thinks Savage Opress is faster then Vader.

Don't talk to my half. And yes, Savage is faster than Vader. He reacted Anakin & Obi-Wan at the same time, more agile, more mobile, blitzed black sun leaders, disarmed Ventress, took of Plo Koon's mask before he can react, and doesn't have same low end feats Vader possess.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
sigh

Originally posted by Marco1907
Darth Vader would get blitz just like Tiin and Kolar imo.


Nah.

Only if it's a full on Lightning blitz.

Vader is one of the most powerful Sith of all time, and Lucas even put him at 80% of Sidious, which I doubt he would if he could be blitzed on the level of Tiin, Kolar or Fisto.

He's just too much of a big gun to go down that easily.

Originally posted by Marco1907
blitzed black sun leaders Holy f*cking shit guys you hear that? Black Sun leaders. Game over.

Now someone needs to show me ''Vader is faster than thought'' feat.... :/

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah.

Only if it's a full on Lightning blitz.

Vader is one of the most powerful Sith of all time, and Lucas even put him at 80% of Sidious, which I doubt he would if he could be blitzed on the level of Tiin, Kolar or Fisto.

He's just too much of a big gun to go down that easily.

I am looking all of his feats bro, I've read many Vader comics, and believe me he has lots of lowballing in terms of speed.

As you know, Lucas already explained Vader's speed. ''Crippled half droid half man''

I am planning on making a blog about how slow Vader really is, but it would be unpleasant lowballing so I am not sure about that yet.

Originally posted by Marco1907
If you count his low end feats, yes he should be. Because I won't ignore these battles, because no one mocked with Maul and Dooku's speed in any comic, or no one teleported behind of Maul and Dooku (Chona Bene teleported behind Vader) , or no one land a blow to Maul or Dooku via using agility.



Aren't you taking it out of context a bit? Circumstances do matter. Sidious is fast but he is not blitzing a duelist/force user such as Vader.



Really?

Originally posted by Marco1907
And yes, Savage is faster than Vader.

Well, there you go Ant.

Vader has some insane speed feats.

Originally posted by Sinious
Aren't you taking it out of context a bit? Circumstances do matter. Sidious is fast but he is not blitzing a duelist/force user such as Vader.


Did you ever think that why Sidious has two speciality in terms of combat ?

- Speed

- Lightning

And these two are weakness to Vader, is this a coincidence ? Is this why Vader never tried to challange Sidious all those years ? I don't think this is a coincidence.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vader has some insane speed feats.

None of them happened against a formidable opponent. That is why he failed to overpower old Ben, and that is why he failed to keep up with RotJ Luke, that is why he failed to defeat Clone of TPM Maul, etc. etc.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Did you ever think that why Sidious has two speciality in terms of combat ?

- Speed

- Lightning

And these two are weakness to Vader, is this a coincidence ? Is this why Vader never tried to challange Sidious all those years ? I don't think this is a coincidence.

Both of those were his specialities long before Vader got f'ed up on Mustafar.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334407-new+picture+%281%29.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334409-new+picture+%283%29.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334412-new+picture+%286%29.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334414-new+picture+%287%29.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334417-new+picture+%2810%29.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3416330-new+picture+%2849%29.jpg

Originally posted by Sinious
Both of those were his specialities long before Vader got f'ed up on Mustafar.

I didn't understand your point. Yes it was his specialities before Mustafar. I am talking about Vader's weaknesses, I meant Lucas knowingly set Sidious's abilities for Vader's weaknesses.

@darthant

Do you think Vader is faster than Savage just because of those low level speed feats ?

Yes Vader has super-speed, but he is only fast as Kolar or Tiin at best.

Vader doing front flips just seems so... awkward to me. He was so clunky in the movies, it gives people the wrong impression.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I didn't understand your point. Yes it was his specialities before Mustafar. I am talking about Vader's weaknesses, I meant Lucas knowingly set Sidious's power set for Vader's weaknesses.

Thats %100 speculation as you try to guess what Lucas intended; unless you have something to prove it? Meanwhile in the story, Sidious has mastered both those specialities long before they became Vader's weaknesses which proves that Sidious did not reshape his mastery of his abilities to gain advantage against Vader.

Vader never opposed Sidious cause he knew he'd get himself killed. He was really scared of Sidious and he was with good reason.

Originally posted by Trocity
Vader doing front flips just seems so... awkward to me. He was so clunky in the movies, it gives people the wrong impression.

If you are right, then Lucas wouldn't say Vader is not fast as PT Jedi masters and Sith lords, he clearly meant that Vader at the same speed tier with old Ben Kenobi. Which is true in ANH Novelization as well.

Originally posted by ILS
Darth Vader, Lumiya, Galen Marek

Doesn't work at all... Palpatine ligthning over power Vader conter mesure so Vader out...
Galen Marek don't match palpatine when palpa understand than he cannot recruit him as his apprentice he just get kill in no time !!!

Lumiya?? Against sidious you are kidding me...

Originally posted by Marco1907
I am looking all of his feats bro, I've read many Vader comics, and believe me he has lots of lowballing in terms of speed.

As you know, Lucas already explained Vader's speed. ''Crippled half droid half man''

I am planning on making a blog about how slow Vader really is, but it would be unpleasant lowballing so I am not sure about that yet.


Well Kenobi has a lot of low end feats as well. Getting put down by Cad Bane with Quinlan Vos's help for instance. But we don't just average out performances. At the same time we wouldn't take a 1 off peak perfomance like Rage enhanced Kenobi vs Maul in TPM, as the norm either.

But we should take his top consistent performances.

Plus you admit yourself if you made a blog on that it would be lowballing.

Also Vader improved throughout the OT, so his lower performances pre-ANH can be attributed to that.



Lucas says he's slowER than what he was. You can't just take that and assume he's on Tiin or Kolar's level of speed now.

But honestly I wouldn't fully trust one-off statements from Lucas 15 years back. He's been so inconsistent. He also said Old Ben and Vader were slow because they were Old, yet in his next movie he has Count Dooku come in whose older than both, yet goes toe to toe with Yoda. Just the 80% comment contradicts the idea of Vader being extremely slow.

I also doubt Disney going forward are going to bide by that one 15 year old comment of Lucas's about Vader's speed in ANH.

Originally posted by Revanchiste
Doesn't work at all... Palpatine ligthning over power Vader conter mesure so Vader out...
Galen Marek don't match palpatine when palpa understand than he cannot recruit him as his apprentice he just get kill in no time !!!

Lumiya?? Against sidious you are kidding me... ...

I dunno. I was trying to go for the bare minimum with that team tbh, I'm dubious myself if it would work out. It's more fun than just wrecking Sidious, though.

Originally posted by Sinious
Thats %100 speculation as you try to guess what Lucas intended. Meanwhile in the story, Sidious has mastered both those specialities long before they became Vader's weaknesses which proves that Sidious did not reshape his mastery of his abilities to gain advantage against Vader.

Vader never opposed Sidious cause he knew he'd get himself killed. Vader was really scared of Sidious and he did with good reason.

That's why I said ''Lucas'' not Sidious. That's why Darth Maul died with ridiculous way so Anakin had become Vader, that's why Yoda lost to Sidious, that's why Obi-Wan defeated him in Mustafar so he had become Vader, etc. all PT happened according to setting Vader right.

Of course Sidious never mastered these two abilities for gaining advantage against Vader. I meant plot of the whole series.

Originally posted by Sinious
A weaker incarnation of Vader could keep up with Maul and Maul didnt get blitzed by Sidious so why would Vader peak get blitzed?

This a technical matter you Know. Sidious have over mega power ligthnings.. maul is resistant to ligthning... But for vader even with his conter mesure that's his weak point...

I love the reboot of Vader in Ris of the Dark lord but I d'ont like the fact he perform ataru sequenceses.. It have no sens...

Galen get quasi Blitz by Palpatine when he understand than he cannot recruit galen as apprentice...

HoT Revan Vitiate is a good combo.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That's why I said ''Lucas'' not Sidious. That's why Darth Maul died with ridiculous way so Anakin had become Vader, that's why Yoda lose to Sidious, that's why Obi-Wan defeated him in Mustafar so he had become Vader, etc. all PT happened according to setting Vader right.

Of course Sidious never mastered these two abilities for gaining advantage against Vader. I meant plot of the whole series.

Well then thats why Vader couldn't easily defeat Obi-wan in ANH, thats why he lost to his son in ROTJ, thats why everything that happened in the story happened the way it did so that the rebels could win at the end of OT.

I don't get how any of this justify your lowballing comments on Vader's speed.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Don't talk to my half. And yes, Savage is faster than Vader. He reacted Anakin & Obi-Wan at the same time, more agile, more mobile, blitzed black sun leaders, disarmed Ventress, took of Plo Koon's mask before he can react, and doesn't have same low end feats Vader possess.

Vader has taken on much younger, powerful and acrobatic opponents :/ Galen was very talented as a duelist, as well his Clone, Celeste Morne and many other Jedi, he also bested an Ataru user like Dark Woman and many other jedi masters

He took off Koon's mask due to circumstance.

You mean Savage doesn't have the same feats as Vader, tanking lightsaber shots and surviving, tanking the rage and Lightning pylon amped force lightning of Starkiller and defeating a great number of jedi as well as having insane TK feats that vastly outstrip anything Savage has done.

Edit. Though, I do respect that even though you could so easily make a thread about Vader's feat, you choose not to as that would be very childish. Again, I respect that.

This thread has developed some serious brain damage in a matter of a couple of hours.

Originally posted by Revanchiste
This a technical matter you Know. Sidious have over mega power ligthnings.. maul is resistant to ligthning... But for vader even with his conter mesure that's his weak point...

I love the reboot of Vader in Ris of the Dark lord but I d'ont like the fact he perform ataru sequenceses.. It have no sens...

Originally posted by Revanchiste
Galen get quasi Blitz by Palpatine when he understand than he cannot recruit galen as apprentice...

HoT Revan Vitiate is a good combo.

I have no idea how any of this is relevant when debating speed.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well then thats why Vader couldn't easily defeat Obi-wan in ANH, thats why he lost to his son in ROTJ, thats why everything that happened in the story happened the way it did so that the rebels could win at the end of OT.

I don't get how any of this justify your lowballing comments on Vader's speed.

*sigh

I am not trying to lowball Vader, I am just telling the truth, because you know I don't like lying, that's why I've stood against Sheev vs. Mace Windu farce of entire CV.

Vader is powerful, and he has lots of ability which even Maul and Dooku don't have. But clearly he is not fast as top level beings. He is still fast though, but I am not going to put him in Maul or Dooku tier, that's my point of view.

Mace and Yoda.

Yoda alone stalemated Sidious and Mace alone either stalemated or defeated him. Either way, the two together should handle him.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@darthant

Do you think Vader is faster than Savage just because of those low level speed feats ?



None of those feats were that great.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of those feats were that great. Neither is Bane and his slutty cueball.

Originally posted by Marco1907
*sigh

I am not trying to lowball Vader, I am just telling the truth, because you know I don't like lying, that's why I've stood against Sheev vs. Mace Windu farce of entire CV.

Vader is powerful, and he has lots of ability which even Maul and Dooku don't have. But clearly he is not fast as top level beings. He is still fast though, but I am not going to put him in Maul or Dooku tier, that's my point of view.

I think you're misconceiving the slow, mechanical image of Vader. He is the chosen one and those mechanics stopped him from becoming faster than even Sidious but that doesn't mean he is very slow compared to other force users especially compared to Dooku and Maul since they are definitely not top level beings.

Originally posted by Nephthys


None of those feats were that great.

All of them were better than moving your a saber fast enough to form a shield?

Umad Bane is slow and sucks in every way compared to Vader?

Originally posted by Sinious
I think you're misconceiving the slow, mechanical image of Vader. He is the chosen one and those mechanics stopped him from becoming faster than even Sidious but that doesn't mean he is very slow compared to other force users especially compared to Dooku and Maul since they are definitely not top level beings.


Actually, this is not about mechanics, Vader has a breathing apparatus and a heavy armor. Which makes him 'not fast' as Anakin, Obi-Wan, Savage, Asajj, Fisto, Maul, Dooku etc. like the top level duelists from PT.

From Rebels Magazine, from Vader vs. Maul comparison ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsComics04b0bafett_Scans02_zps2fd83754.jpg

Weakness;

- Heavy outfit and breathing apparatus make it diffucult for him to launch a surprise attack.

Marco you can't use that, that is Legends canon

So Neph is the reason of all this Bane hate now?

@ Marco:

That's like saying Maul sucks cause he tried to kill Kenobi with his saber's sparks and failed shamefully.

That info does not contradict with Canon. I don't see a problem.

Originally posted by Marco1907


Weakness;

- Heavy outfit and breathing apparatus make it diffucult for him to launch a surprise attack.


That's not saying he's slow. It's saying he's loud.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's not saying he's slow. It's saying he's loud.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's not saying he's slow. It's saying he's loud.

Heavy outfit ?

lol @ "susceptible to long blasts of force lightning", as if most characters aren't.

I don't know the exact details about Vader's armor, according to wikia, only his shoulder armor should be 12 kg. ;

''The shoulder armor itself weighed 12.2 kg overall, was resistant to both blasters and energy blades, and was capable of withstanding hits from both weapon types with only minor surface pitting. ''

For more ;

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader%27s_armor

Originally posted by Trocity
lol @ "susceptible to long blasts of force lightning", as if most characters aren't.

Well we know that Luke, Savage and Maul are.

This should be "create the weakest strike team that can take out Sids."

Count Dooku
Darth Maul
Nomi Sunrider
Darth Sion

Originally posted by Based
Count Dooku
Darth Maul
Nomi Sunrider
Darth Sion

This team loses though.

Without Windu ;


- Darth Maul
- Count Dooku
- Savage Opress
- Kit Fisto / Asajj Ventress

Vader, Maul, and Dooku could handle him.

Originally posted by Revanchiste
He solo but that's not because he is more powerfull....
Bantha.. Everybody know than it will be no dout than sidious would just kill Mace in no time, because the interruption was apart of the plan.... Sidious could have killed windu earlier !!!!!

And I suggest Vitiate because palpatine will be really exhausted in 1V.S1 after deafeating him (if he win...)
So imagine Vitiate + someone able to resist sidious (as Revan or HoT for example)
That's a a combo that can strike sidious with a 9.97/10 !
Needn't to be 4.

It's completly uesless to take somone who can't resist sidious, because if you don't have the lvl sidious O.S you in no time.... Kit fisto for example, don't have the lvl, O.S and at the end it's just a Mace V.S Sidious. his presence was completly useless.

This is a total and complete lie and I've dispelled this point numerous times on this forum. This is ZERO proof that Sidious threw the fight and it's retarded to even think so. Think about it...

What if Sids gets one of his saber shots through and kills Windu... Where is the plan now? The novel makes it clear he was going all out against Windu and even spells it out in plain English for all. Lucas own words further solidify the point... You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious. He goes onto say.. Windu OVERPOWERED Sidious... NOT ONE, NOT ONE MENTION OF SIDS THROWING THE FIGHT. What now, you're going to me Sids mindraped Windu into throwing the kick to disarm himself? FACEPALM.. WIndu beat Sids one v one fair and square... No amount of lying or excuses changes that fact. Get over it.

As for the thread.. all that is needed is windu.. But we can come up with 10 or more teams that could easily do it with no issue.

Revan and Malak. :iwin:

Windu was only stalemating Sidious until Anakin showed up and became the shatterpoint, but I agree that Sidious didn't throw the lightsaber portion of the fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is a total and complete lie and I've dispelled this point numerous times on this forum. This is ZERO proof that Sidious threw the fight and it's retarded to even think so. Think about it...

What if Sids gets one of his saber shots through and kills Windu... Where is the plan now? The novel makes it clear he was going all out against Windu and even spells it out in plain English for all. Lucas own words further solidify the point... You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious. He goes onto say.. Windu OVERPOWERED Sidious... NOT ONE, NOT ONE MENTION OF SIDS THROWING THE FIGHT. What now, you're going to me Sids mindraped Windu into throwing the kick to disarm himself? FACEPALM.. WIndu beat Sids one v one fair and square... No amount of lying or excuses changes that fact. Get over it.

As for the thread.. all that is needed is windu.. But we can come up with 10 or more teams that could easily do it with no issue.

The problem here is, Windu has struggled with much inferior fighters before and Vaapad justifies the inaccuracy there. However, there is still one issue which is the ending of the fight.
Sidious is the ultimate mastermind who planned every phase of his secret schemes and manipulated his surroundings perfectly. He was extremely cautious yet suddenly exposed himself to Anakin which was more than just risky. Anakin obviously would warn the Jedi Council and Sidious was expecting the jedi team without any sign of stress anyway. At the end of the fight when Anakin entered the room, the way things ended were so beneficial for Sidious that he could not hope for a better outcome. Something smells here. I'm not saying Sidious lost on purpose but its not a theory that should be ignored completely imo.

Of course... at that point... Sids wasn't completely done.. He obviously still had some juice left but was still a beaten mane.. He only feigned being totally weak and unable to do anything more. That part was the faking... he still got disarmed and had a saber to his throat.. that wasn't part of the plan. Sids lost... plain and simple.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vader, Maul, and Dooku could handle him.

Originally posted by Sinious
The problem here is, Windu has struggled with much inferior fighters before and Vaapad justifies the inaccuracy there. However, there is still one issue which is the ending of the fight.
Sidious is the ultimate mastermind who planned every phase of his secret schemes and manipulated his surroundings perfectly. He was extremely cautious yet suddenly exposed himself to Anakin which was more than just risky. Anakin obviously would warn the Jedi Council and Sidious was expecting the jedi team without any sign of stress anyway. At the end of the fight when Anakin entered the room, the way things ended were so beneficial for Sidious that he could not hope for a better outcome. Something smells here. I'm not saying Sidious lost on purpose but its not a theory that should be ignored completely imo.

If you are right, then Sheev could foresee Naboo events, or Anakin's defeat in Mustafar, or Vader's betrayal in RotJ. He is not all knowing god.

Like Yoda said, ''Difficult to see, always in motion the future is.'''

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
WIndu beat Sids one v one fair and square...

When?

^Exactly Mace never fought Sidious 1 v 1 from beginning to end.

Only Yoda did. And even He, The Most Powerful Jedi failed to defeat him.

Only Mace beat Sidious and there is no getting around this fact.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111028234030/starwars/images/0/0b/Duel_on_Coruscant.jpg

Stretchy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only Mace beat Sidious and there is no getting around this fact.

Yeah, but with help. There's no getting around that either.

cKLJJtQDn6Q

I agree that Mace defeated Sidious for reals and did not let Mace win. But Sidious showed his cunning in the situation when Anakin entered. He used the force lightning to make himself look pitiable, secure that Anakin would be too emotional to notice that Sidious - not Mace - was the one who was generating the lightning. And he calculated correctly that it would push Anakin over the edge to intervene against Mace, and that Anakin was messed up and naive enough to think he had made an irrevocable choice.

I don't think that exact scenario was his plan all along, but Sidious was a master of setting plans into motion that he could twist to his advantage whichever way things turned out. Whether the separatists or the republic won did not matter. Whether Dooku or Anakin won did not matter. Whether Vader or Luke won did not matter. (Except that he did not foresee Luke taking a third path - laying down his saber.)

But even granting for argument's sake that they stalemated until Sidious threw the fight, then adding Yoda should do the trick, since Sidious would be fighting two guys that he couldn't defeat singly.

His help was Anakin's presence, I hope no one is trying infer the B team helped in that fight at all. Maybe Fisto slightly, and maybe the fact that he decided to blitz Kolar and Tiin first, thus allowing Mace to ease into Vaapad.

AH_P8E3tphY

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course... at that point... Sids wasn't completely done.. He obviously still had some juice left but was still a beaten mane.. He only feigned being totally weak and unable to do anything more. That part was the faking... he still got disarmed and had a saber to his throat.. that wasn't part of the plan. Sids lost... plain and simple.

That wasn't what I was referring to. Obviously he wasn't as weak as he pretended to be at the end.

The theory is that Sidious senses Anakin's arrival and lets Windu hit him in the face as it is the only way he'll lose without getting wounded. So maybe Sidious lost on purpose and pretended to be the victim till he realized Windu wouldn't try to kill him, which wasn't good for Palpatine as he wanted Windu to push Anakin into doing something that will lead him to the dark side with no turning back which is why he attacked Windu with his lightning. He made Windu believe that Sidious was too dangerous to be left alive. Sidious got exactly what he wanted. He got rid of Windu, gained the opportunity to justify Order 66 and became the master of potentially the most powerful force user ever lived. Again, not claiming anything, just acknowledging it as a decent theory.

Originally posted by Trocity
I hope no one is trying infer the B team helped in that fight at all.

I am.

Yeah, me too. Fisto managed to fight a little.

Originally posted by Sinious
That wasn't what I was referring to. Obviously he wasn't as weak as he pretended to be at the end.

The theory is that Sidious senses Anakin's arrival and lets Windu hit him in the face as it is the only way he'll lose without getting wounded. So maybe Sidious lost on purpose and pretended to be the victim till he realized Windu wouldn't try to kill him, which wasn't good for Palpatine as he wanted Windu to push Anakin into doing something that will lead him to the dark side with no turning back which is why he attacked Windu with his lightning. He made Windu believe that Sidious was too dangerous to be left alive. Sidious got exactly what he wanted. He got rid of Windu, gained the opportunity to justify Order 66 and became the master of potentially the most powerful force user ever lived. Again, not claiming anything, just acknowledging it as a decent theory.

You don't seem to understand how proof and weights on a scale of proof work... The side i'm on has SIGNIFCANTLY more proof than the scale you're trying to put weight on. I prefer to go with the side with more proof and less conjecture. For everything you said you LITERALLY have ZERO proof to back ANY of that up. The novel NEVER ONCE MENTIONS THIS.... Lucas NEVER ONCE MENTIONS this theory of yours. SIDS.. YODA... MACE.. ANAKIN.. ANYBODY.. NEVER ONCE mentions anything you've just said. You see where that leads? it leads to very shaky almost nothing to stand on for your argument.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I am.

Ummm okay... That's kinda silly.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm okay... That's kinda silly.

Well it would be silly for someone like you who thinks even Qui-Gon made no contribution to the fight against Maul.

But if you knew anything about combat, you'd know that every second you're mind is focused elsewhere changes the fight.

Not to mention Sidious's main superiority over Windu is his Force Powers. An ability which is more of an advantage from a distance. A distance Sidious didn't get because he had to Blitz those other Jedi, and was then forced to engage Mace in Close Combat from the outset.

Plus don't lecture me on real life fighting of any kinda.. I've forgotten more about MMA or Boxing than you ever knew. Sidious had plenty of time when it was one v one... to create distance or use his powers.. He didn't and there is no proof it would've worked had he done so.

If I'm fighting 4 guys.. and I KO 3 right from the jump... No they didn't take energy or time or diminish my skills in anyway when the fight becomes one v one. We've seen Dooku WHILE fighting Anakin and Kenobi... Replenish his force reserves instantly. Now you're telling me Sids couldn't do the same? That is even to say he drained any what so ever which I find hard to believe. Once the fight was one on one he had plenty of time to have his skills surprise Windu.. HE FAILED to do so. Your excuse for this is.. Ohh he had to kill 3 others before... LOL... That's bordering on retarded.. even for you. Once the fight was one v one... What about the earlier fight diminished he skills that he couldn't fight the same way or show his superiority? Please do tell.

Well clearly your application of that MMA/Boxing Knowledge is very poor if you think the first few seconds of every round are not crucial. And that 3 weak combatants aiding in those seconds won't make a difference.

I'm not making excuses, I'm giving the full facts of the fight. It wasn't a completely fair 1 on 1 from the outset. And Sidious wasn't able to make full use of his Powers against Mace the way he did against Yoda. You can deny those facts all you like. But those are the facts. And those facts most likely explain why the 2nd Most Powerful Jedi managed to achieve something the Most Powerful Jedi could not. Defeating Sidious.

So no proof then only your conjecture. You do realize that there are plenty of references that label Mace is the champion duelist of the order.. even above Yoda. Sure, Yoda is more powerful in the force and wisdom.. but we're just talking Dueling here, and Mace was the head of the order in this regard. I don't even know if he was better than Yoda even if so, as Yoda is still Yoda. What I am saying is it's kinda disingenuous to say Mace is no. 2 when mace has things going for him that Yoda doesn't WHICH COULD EXPLAIN WHY HE WON and NOT because Sids wasted all this energy in 3 seconds killing fodder. How about Vaapad.. How about Shatterpoint.. Things Yoda doesn't have. How about Size and strength... mace was able to hold onto his blade when being hit with lighting for an extended period of time... Yoda wasn't. Those couldn't be the reasons he won and not because of some theory about him wasting all this vital energy killing 3 fodder jedi in 3 seconds flat?

you didn't answer my question.. what about the earlier fights wouldn't allow Sids to prove his superior skill against mace when it was one v one. The ONLY way something would stop him from proving so is if he was hurt or tired from earlier fights. NEITHER is the case here.. You think because I KO 3 guys in 3 seconds that when it gets to one v one.. if I'm superior it won't show and I can't win because I KO'd 3 guys earlier and something.. anything... now means my superior skill is null and void... Please.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Plus don't lecture me on real life fighting of any kinda.. I've forgotten more about MMA or Boxing than you ever knew. Sidious had plenty of time when it was one v one... to create distance or use his powers.. He didn't and there is no proof it would've worked had he done so.

If I'm fighting 4 guys.. and I KO 3 right from the jump... No they didn't take energy or time or diminish my skills in anyway when the fight becomes one v one. We've seen Dooku WHILE fighting Anakin and Kenobi... Replenish his force reserves instantly. Now you're telling me Sids couldn't do the same? That is even to say he drained any what so ever which I find hard to believe. Once the fight was one on one he had plenty of time to have his skills surprise Windu.. HE FAILED to do so. Your excuse for this is.. Ohh he had to kill 3 others before... LOL... That's bordering on retarded.. even for you. Once the fight was one v one... What about the earlier fight diminished he skills that he couldn't fight the same way or show his superiority? Please do tell. ****ing stop with the ...'s! There is a key with a little mark that looks like this , use that key . and you are clearly putting the dots in the place of the cama so just stop doing that and I will be able to read one of your posts without going mad

^ This coming from the expert in grammar and spelling himself

Originally posted by carthage
^ This coming from the expert in grammar and spelling himself oh shut the hell up. I am a victim of a very violent auto correct

Autocorrect changes comma to cama?

Okay I can't spell comma. So what? The whole ... Thing is annoying

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Okay I can't spell comma. So what? The whole ... Thing is annoying

lol happens to the best of buddy, typing on a Phone without going to the shorten variation of words like "Your" "You" is a bit hard, not to mention Autocorrect is a ***** half of the time.

It can be helpful as well, though.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well then thats why Vader couldn't easily defeat Obi-wan in ANH, thats why he lost to his son in ROTJ, thats why everything that happened in the story happened the way it did so that the rebels could win at the end of OT.

I don't get how any of this justify your lowballing comments on Vader's speed.

That's not an argument ANH obiwan was very weak.

And for the precedent quote Yoda give up for stamina purpose.....

Originally posted by ILS
Marco you can't use that, that is Legends canon

Yees he can because that's canon because the magazine only retake already knowed thing that's all !!!

Vader is definitvly slow even with his respirator than provide him better stamina and better reflexes, he still slow for a force user of his level...
Especialy against RotS Sidious !!!

Originally posted by Trocity
lol @ "susceptible to long blasts of force lightning", as if most characters aren't.

Because he is more !!! at the point of certain death, taht's one of the easiest way to kill him, because he is a freakin tank, hard to take down.. But his cybernetics don't appreciates..

Originally posted by Based
This should be "create the weakest strike team that can take out Sids."

Count Dooku
Darth Maul
Nomi Sunrider
Darth Sion

Obiwan Padawan, kit fisto, luke ANH, grievous or ventress...


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vader, Maul, and Dooku could handle him.



thumb up



Vader O.S trhough lighnings in his face he slowly dying in the background...
Maul can only barely distract sidious who is able to fight dath maul and resist Dooku telekinetic in the same time....


Originally posted by Ace Hambone
I agree that Mace defeated Sidious for reals and did not let Mace win. But Sidious showed his cunning in the situation when Anakin entered. He used the force lightning to make himself look pitiable, secure that Anakin would be too emotional to notice that Sidious - not Mace - was the one who was generating the lightning. And he calculated correctly that it would push Anakin over the edge to intervene against Mace, and that Anakin was messed up and naive enough to think he had made an irrevocable choice.

I don't think that exact scenario was his plan all along, but Sidious was a master of setting plans into motion that he could twist to his advantage whichever way things turned out. Whether the separatists or the republic won did not matter. Whether Dooku or Anakin won did not matter. Whether Vader or Luke won did not matter. (Except that he did not foresee Luke taking a third path - laying down his saber.)

But even granting for argument's sake that they stalemated until Sidious threw the fight, then adding Yoda should do the trick, since Sidious would be fighting two guys that he couldn't defeat singly.

Wait a minute it had been demonstrated many time than Sidious where fully cappable of killing mace. He didn't to abuse of his position (remember how he kill dooku at the begining !)
Yhea but the force lightning have no effect on him, in fact he his using sith alchemmy, because this is his real face !!
He set that from the begining, or he have the idea since dooku death...

Mace cannot defeat Sidious without Yoda that's clear, and even with that... Eeer they still have problems....


And palpatine is toying with maul and savage double the price double the fall...

Originally posted by Revanchiste
Vader is definitvly slow even with his respirator than provide him better stamina and better reflexes, he still slow for a force user of his level...


This is the first time I am agreeing with you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You don't seem to understand how proof and weights on a scale of proof work... The side i'm on has SIGNIFCANTLY more proof than the scale you're trying to put weight on. I prefer to go with the side with more proof and less conjecture. For everything you said you LITERALLY have ZERO proof to back ANY of that up. The novel NEVER ONCE MENTIONS THIS.... Lucas NEVER ONCE MENTIONS this theory of yours. SIDS.. YODA... MACE.. ANAKIN.. ANYBODY.. NEVER ONCE mentions anything you've just said. You see where that leads? it leads to very shaky almost nothing to stand on for your argument.

Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone with this theory. There is a reason why so many people believe this theory and I tried to explain why its not that stupid to acknowledge such a theory. This scenario is more applicable in Legends canon though.

Pre-Anh Vader toyed with Aurra sing and speed blitzed her in unarmed combat. He then went on to ragdoll her with the force.

Its really quite the enjoyable scene

Wow this thread...

Darth Venamis, Mother Talzin, Kyp Durron, Darth Traya

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So no proof then only your conjecture. You do realize that there are plenty of references that label Mace is the champion duelist of the order.. even above Yoda. Sure, Yoda is more powerful in the force and wisdom.. but we're just talking Dueling here, and Mace was the head of the order in this regard. I don't even know if he was better than Yoda even if so, as Yoda is still Yoda. What I am saying is it's kinda disingenuous to say Mace is no. 2 when mace has things going for him that Yoda doesn't WHICH COULD EXPLAIN WHY HE WON and NOT because Sids wasted all this energy in 3 seconds killing fodder. How about Vaapad.. How about Shatterpoint.. Things Yoda doesn't have. How about Size and strength... mace was able to hold onto his blade when being hit with lighting for an extended period of time... Yoda wasn't. Those couldn't be the reasons he won and not because of some theory about him wasting all this vital energy killing 3 fodder jedi in 3 seconds flat?

you didn't answer my question.. what about the earlier fights wouldn't allow Sids to prove his superior skill against mace when it was one v one. The ONLY way something would stop him from proving so is if he was hurt or tired from earlier fights. NEITHER is the case here.. You think because I KO 3 guys in 3 seconds that when it gets to one v one.. if I'm superior it won't show and I can't win because I KO'd 3 guys earlier and something.. anything... now means my superior skill is null and void... Please.


KT in the other thread you've had nothing but Straws to Grasp at, so you've had to resort to completely IGNORING and DENYING All Valid Sources and Evidence. Now here you've just resorted to completely lying.

Please Provide me with this Quote that states Windu is the superior duellist to Yoda, because I can provide you Canon Statements which tell us all straight up Yoda is the NO.1 JEDI in Combat.

What about Vapaad and Shatterpoint? Yoda's the more skilled duelist. Yoda's the most powerful Jedi. Yoda's the one with the Far superior TK.


Of course 3 KO punches right at the beginning of a fight or even a Round CAN and likely WILL effect your performance in the rest of the fight.

Again, Sidious didn't get to unleash his full Force Powers from the beginning of the fight against Windu. Bevause he didn't face Windu alone. And we've all seen how far beyond Mace Sidious's Tk is, with the way he can Ragdoll Darth Maul. Whilst Maul is capable of engaging Windu and another Jedi Council Member at the same time, and doesn't get even close to being Ragdolled anywhere.

Windu may be on par with Sidious as a Sword Master but Sidious is more Powerful than Windu in an all out. Deal with it KT. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Marco1907
This is the first time I am agreeing with you.
There is a begining to everything my friend.


"Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You don't seem to understand how proof and weights on a scale of proof work... The side i'm on has SIGNIFCANTLY more proof than the scale you're trying to put weight on. I prefer to go with the side with more proof and less conjecture. For everything you said you LITERALLY have ZERO proof to back ANY of that up. The novel NEVER ONCE MENTIONS THIS.... Lucas NEVER ONCE MENTIONS this theory of yours. SIDS.. YODA... MACE.. ANAKIN.. ANYBODY.. NEVER ONCE mentions anything you've just said. You see where that leads? it leads to very shaky almost nothing to stand on for your argument. "


Doyou trust... LUCAS???????????? How could you even.....

Some theory are just made by just great analist, and I prefer listening to an analist instead of a lobyist !!!

I know what's a Valid sources, if the difference between two sources is classed as bullshitium of lobyistique deformation because we just show the character and build him without making rescearch, like grievous for example.
I take the oldest one.
Between 2003 Grievous who is born before the RotS Grievous. And the TWC 2008 Grievous who is based on the RotS Grievous but totaly ****ed up compared to the 2003 grievous... I take the 2003 grievous.
For the two sources of Assaj Races I take the older one....


For a reboot thing wich is intentional, and made of pure purpose of bring back to life a dead Heroe.... Forgotten by the Fan... And not rewrite the story because you don't find a place in the time line where you can write your story (like disney does with espisode VII...) I say the reboot is canon.
Like Rise of the Dark Lord, (not in everything because ataru acrobatic on vader is pure bullshit !!!!) I like the fact than if this vader where against luke in RotJ he won't be able to cut vader arm XD Because at the s time sith alchemmy granted vader suit resistance to light saber.. Don't know don't even exist light saber cut everythings...

Or like the TOR novel (exept on the fact Revan where only a pupet of Vitiate who turn back for power and not teh galaxy as he does Know in bring an alliance between Republic and sith to end Vitiate because he always wonder why the sith don't rebels against Vitiate...) But anyway the creator said it he want A more powerfull Revan. Because Revan will ****ing need it with scourge as antagonist allied....

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
KT in the other thread you've had nothing but Straws to Grasp at, so you've had to resort to completely IGNORING and DENYING All Valid Sources and Evidence. Now here you've just resorted to completely lying.

Please Provide me with this Quote that states Windu is the superior duellist to Yoda, because I can provide you Canon Statements which tell us all straight up Yoda is the NO.1 JEDI in Combat.

What about Vapaad and Shatterpoint? Yoda's the more skilled duelist. Yoda's the most powerful Jedi. Yoda's the one with the Far superior TK.


Of course 3 KO punches right at the beginning of a fight or even a Round CAN and likely WILL effect your performance in the rest of the fight.

Again, Sidious didn't get to unleash his full Force Powers from the beginning of the fight against Windu. Bevause he didn't face Windu alone. And we've all seen how far beyond Mace Sidious's Tk is, with the way he can Ragdoll Darth Maul. Whilst Maul is capable of engaging Windu and another Jedi Council Member at the same time, and doesn't get even close to being Ragdolled anywhere.

Windu may be on par with Sidious as a Sword Master but Sidious is more Powerful than Windu in an all out. Deal with it KT. Deal with it.

There is so much wrong with this it's not even funny. DP I LITERALLY... LITERALLY have all the proof on my side. You say Shatterpoint and Vaapad... don't make a difference... Odd because Mace BEAT Sids in a straight duel and Yoda wasn't able to do the same. So CLEARLY those things do make a difference. Yoda might be more powerful in the force.. but he's not a better duelist (especially against Darksiders) You also neglected the size disparity between the two and the two similar situations they both faced... one was able to hold onto his saber.. the other wasn't. This is directly attributed to Mace superior strength and leverage. The fact is, Mace beat Sids and no amount of excuses changes that.

Also, you keep making acting like killing those 3 Jedi drained him.. It didn't... So how did it affect him. IF Sids was superior as you claim.. and wasn't tired... than the skill would've shown through and he would've won. He had plenty of time to win and control the fight.. He failed to do so. PERIOD. Killing the fodder before had ZERO effect on him. IF you think it did, POST THE NARRATION in the book that says it did. There was certainly nothing said in the movie. SO unless you have some proof of it making him fatigued than I'll accept your concession o this point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is so much wrong with this it's not even funny. DP I LITERALLY... LITERALLY have all the proof on my side. You say Shatterpoint and Vaapad... don't make a difference... Odd because Mace BEAT Sids in a straight duel and Yoda wasn't able to do the same.


Actually the evidence suggests Yoda DID beat Sidious in a straight up duel. The difference is Yoda didn't have help at the start of the duel.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So CLEARLY those things do make a difference. Yoda might be more powerful in the force.. but he's not a better duelist (especially against Darksiders)


Yes he is. Not only does the stunt coordinator of the Prequels say "we know Mace is second only to Yoda"- talking about him as a combatant, not only does Obi-Wan praise Yoda's SABER Skills as the best to match in the Order, but the novel it self calls Yoda the "Most Devastatingly Powerful foe the Darkness has ever faced."

So yes Yoda was the more dangerous foe to Sidious in an all out. Not Windu.

And Yoda was the Order's best Saber duelist. Not Windu.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You also neglected the size disparity between the two and the two similar situations they both faced... one was able to hold onto his saber.. the other wasn't.

Is this a Joke? Yoda's Saber was shot out of his hand after he just made a leap up to Sidious's position on the edge of a Senate Pod. The script makes it clear Yoda was deflecting Sidious's Lightning with his Saber earlier in the fight.

It's just not that easy to kill Sidious in an environment where he can unleash his full Force Powers, and when he's not laying on his butt.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is directly attributed to Mace superior strength and leverage.


Proof? Or you just believing what you want to? Because if anything it could be directly attributed to Sidious feigning weakness with his Lightning as confirmed by Lucas.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact is, Mace beat Sids and no amount of excuses changes that.


Fact is Mace had help fighting Sidious. Yoda didn't. No amount of excuses will change that. Yoda stalemated Sidious on his own, in an open environment, where Sidious could unleash his full Force powers on him.

Windu beat Sidious with help at the beginning of the fight, and in circumstances and an environment where Sidious was unable to unleash his full power on him.





Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, you keep making acting like killing those 3 Jedi drained him.. It didn't...

Proof?

It distracted him in those first few seconds. If he was up agianst Yoda, Yoda would have blitzed Sidious, while Sidious was blitzing those other Jedi.




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So how did it affect him. IF Sids was superior as you claim.. and wasn't tired... than the skill would've shown through and he would've won. He had plenty of time to win and control the fight.. He failed to do so. PERIOD. Killing the fodder before had ZERO effect on him. IF you think it did, POST THE NARRATION in the book that says it did. There was certainly nothing said in the movie. SO unless you have some proof of it making him fatigued than I'll accept your concession o this point.


Urm no, actually it's up to you to prove that Killing 3 Jedi Masters at the beginning of the fight, didn't effect him, or his fight with Windu in the least bit.

Because True 1 vs 1 fights have no distractions from 3rd parties.

Fact is Sidious and Windu were Near Equals in their Saber fight. That means any distraction, or Sidious even tiring slightly would change the course of the fight.


Fact is both Sidious and Yoda are more Powerful then Windu. Not only in the Force, but in an All-Out combat scenario. Windu's the next most powerful, but not their equal. He can beat Sidious (as shown) in Close-Quarter combat only, if the situation and environment allows that to happen. Even then, Sidious could also win in that situation.

But all out? Windu's no.3 after Yoda and Sidious. You need to learn to deal with that. This was proven when even Yoda failed to defeat Sidious in a 1 vs 1 fight, where Sidious was able to go all out on 1 single opponent.

End of.

So much truth and error in the same time windu second only to Yoda : True.
Obiwan skill are infeior to Widu but he his largly superior in tactic (that's the difference) Yoda is a teacher, (like Revan was in his own empire), so he is good because he learn all the technics (especialy the basics) to be able to teach them. He not gretaly improove the technics he just apply the skill at the perfection.. The only original thing from him I have ever see that's he is aplying some soresu swind whil doing ataru acrobatics. (That's super effectiv...)
Where Revan learn only ataru soresu and learn form V and VI by himslef quasi alone (a bit with Malak and the true sith I have to guess...)

Yoda light saber need for him to use insane quantity of force energy, because he need a lot of force physical boost !!!!!!!!!! He is slow old, so old. That's why he will never beat sidious in time ! He will alway run out of power before killing him !!!



Yoda light saber can techniclay protect him self from lighning but in pratice... Ouch more difficult to cover a large zone of protection with a so tiny blade !!!




WINDU DO NOT HAVE A CHANCE AGAINST SIDIOUS !!! Sidious just need him as a tool, he was the strongest so it was more easy to keep him alive while waiting anakin !!!

Windu equal to sidious O.K.. But in this fight only Sidious was gentle with his ass !

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually the evidence suggests Yoda DID beat Sidious in a straight up duel. The difference is Yoda didn't have help at the start of the duel.





Yes he is. Not only does the stunt coordinator of the Prequels say "we know Mace is second only to Yoda"- talking about him as a combatant, not only does Obi-Wan praise Yoda's SABER Skills as the best to match in the Order, but the novel it self calls Yoda the "Most Devastatingly Powerful foe the Darkness has ever faced."

So yes Yoda was the more dangerous foe to Sidious in an all out. Not Windu.

And Yoda was the Order's best Saber duelist. Not Windu.




Is this a Joke? Yoda's Saber was shot out of his hand after he just made a leap up to Sidious's position on the edge of a Senate Pod. The script makes it clear Yoda was deflecting Sidious's Lightning with his Saber earlier in the fight.

It's just not that easy to kill Sidious in an environment where he can unleash his full Force Powers, and when he's not laying on his butt.





Proof? Or you just believing what you want to? Because if anything it could be directly attributed to Sidious feigning weakness with his Lightning as confirmed by Lucas.





Fact is Mace had help fighting Sidious. Yoda didn't. No amount of excuses will change that. Yoda stalemated Sidious on his own, in an open environment, where Sidious could unleash his full Force powers on him.

Windu beat Sidious with help at the beginning of the fight, and in circumstances and an environment where Sidious was unable to unleash his full power on him.







Proof?

It distracted him in those first few seconds. If he was up agianst Yoda, Yoda would have blitzed Sidious, while Sidious was blitzing those other Jedi.







Urm no, actually it's up to you to prove that Killing 3 Jedi Masters at the beginning of the fight, didn't effect him, or his fight with Windu in the least bit.

Because True 1 vs 1 fights have no distractions from 3rd parties.

Fact is Sidious and Windu were Near Equals in their Saber fight. That means any distraction, or Sidious even tiring slightly would change the course of the fight.


Fact is both Sidious and Yoda are more Powerful then Windu. Not only in the Force, but in an All-Out combat scenario. Windu's the next most powerful, but not their equal. He can beat Sidious (as shown) in Close-Quarter combat only, if the situation and environment allows that to happen. Even then, Sidious could also win in that situation.

But all out? Windu's no.3 after Yoda and Sidious. You need to learn to deal with that. This was proven when even Yoda failed to defeat Sidious in a 1 vs 1 fight, where Sidious was able to go all out on 1 single opponent.

End of.

All this time in the expanded universe and you still don't know how to argue correctly. The onus lies DIRECTLY on you DP and that is how debates work. YOU made the claim that Sidious was negatively effected by the 3 other Jedi, thus it's on your to provide evidence to support such a claim. Understand how that works? Now, what we have is... Neither the novel, nor the movie, nor lucas in his commentary EVER comment that Sidious was in anyways negatively effected by the 3 Jedi fodder. You literally have no leg to stand on other than your conjecture. As I've shown, there isn't any proof in any proof there was.

Your lack of real life fighting is becoming very evident here. When you're superior to your opponent that skill will show through if you have ample time to do so. If I KO 3 guys right before I fight you... and I'm not tired nor hurt... that would've have any affect on me beating you if I'm superior. You can try and grasp at straws like.. well it could have or maybe it did... That isn't proof. In the very same novel they mention Dooku being fatigued having to battle Kenobi and Anakin... So there is proof that the writer can and will mention such things, yet there is zero mention of Sids being negatively effected AT ALL. Now, either post your proof or I'll accept your concession on the subject.

BTW as you should know.. .Mace Windu was the Master of the Order for a period of time not Yoda. Which I thought you might know. Clearly Yoda is more powerful in the force and obviously wiser.. but that doesn't make him a better duelist. Again, since you can't prove sidiou was negatively effected by the 3 other Jedi we are left with the invariable proof of Mace beating Sids and Yoda not beating him.

You keep acting like Sids didn't use force abilities against Mace.. You should know by now he certainly did. He tried a force push on Mace which was quickly countered.. .He used force lighting on Mace as well. So stop acting like it was just a sword fight. You can't prove your case with a negative bud. That is awful debating. The whole.. oh well this person didn't do this or that... if he did he could've won. You can't prove your case with a negative. If that's how we debated EVERY SINGLE fight could be called into question and we could go.. see this person didn't do that move, and had they, they would've won. As you can see, that is a slippery slop that has no merits in a debate.

Mace's use of shatterpoint and Vaapad are what got him the victory. This is stated in the novel. AT NO POINT was it stated he won because of the 3 Jedi. Obviously I asked for proof above and we'll see if you produce the narration that support your theory. If not, we hve proof on why he won... because of his skills... vaapad and shatterpoint. Why try and theorize why he won when the book tells us why he won.

Point is, Mace beat Sids and no amount of excuses or horrible debating can change that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All this time in the expanded universe and you still don't know how to argue correctly. The onus lies DIRECTLY on you DP and that is how debates work. YOU made the claim that Sidious was negatively effected by the 3 other Jedi, thus it's on your to provide evidence to support such a claim. Understand how that works? Now, what we have is... Neither the novel, nor the movie, nor lucas in his commentary EVER comment that Sidious was in anyways negatively effected by the 3 Jedi fodder. You literally have no leg to stand on other than your conjecture. As I've shown, there isn't any proof in any proof there was.


Urm no, actually since it's you whose trying to make a direct comparison between Windu's 4 on 1 fight, and Yoda's 1 on 1 fight, the Onus is on you to prove those extra 3 bits of help Windu has made no difference to the fight whatsoever.

Just the fact that they were in the fight means they effected the fight, unless you can somehow prove they didn't. Especially seen as Sidious had Windu on the defense for the first 20 seconds of the fight, if he could have devoted those first 7 seconds solely on Windu as well, then of course there's a decent chance he could have been on the winning end of the entire fight.

Not to mention the obvious fact which you keep ignoring that Sidious could have BEGAN the whole fight using his far superior Force powers, which makes the whole thing a completely different fight.

LOL The dialogue in the films, the stunt coordinator, the novel and Lucas himself all made it perfectly clear that Yoda is the most powerful opponent in combat, not Windu. So stop grasping at straws asking for evidence.






Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your lack of real life fighting is becoming very evident here. When you're superior to your opponent that skill will show through if you have ample time to do so. If I KO 3 guys right before I fight you... and I'm not tired nor hurt... that would've have any affect on me beating you if I'm superior. You can try and grasp at straws like.. well it could have or maybe it did... That isn't proof. In the very same novel they mention Dooku being fatigued having to battle Kenobi and Anakin... So there is proof that the writer can and will mention such things, yet there is zero mention of Sids being negatively effected AT ALL. Now, either post your proof or I'll accept your concession on the subject.


The fact that you think it's perfectly normal to KO 3 other combatants at the beginning of a fight, and not have that tire you or effect your performance in the slightest shows you've either never thrown a punch in your life, or you're just being blindly biased here.

The fact that those 3 combatants were interferring at a point when the fight was going Sidious's way is all the proof I need that the Saber fight could have gone differently without them.

Even arguing that the environment, other combatants and distractions don't effect a fight in any way shows your naivity in this area. Either that or your bias is blinding you. I'm guessing it's the second.


Again the proof that the environment and other factors effected the fight is in the result of that fight and the Yoda vs Sidious fight.

Also you need to learn a bit about how narratives work in novels. The part of the ROTS Novel which told us Dooku was tired was told from Dooku's perspective. The Mace vs Sidious fight was NOT given from Sidious's perspective.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
BTW as you should know.. .Mace Windu was the Master of the Order for a period of time not Yoda. Which I thought you might know. Clearly Yoda is more powerful in the force and obviously wiser.. but that doesn't make him a better duelist. Again, since you can't prove sidiou was negatively effected by the 3 other Jedi we are left with the invariable proof of Mace beating Sids and Yoda not beating him.


So Yoda stepping down from his duties as Master for a while make Windu a better duelist?

Yoda took charge when the Galaxy went to war- that should tell you something.

Yoda's the best all out combatant. You could argue Windu might be his equal in a pure duel, but I sure wouldn't put money on it, and most the evidence(film dialogue, Lucas's statement, EU Sources) suggests Yoda's the best in that regard as well.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep acting like Sids didn't use force abilities against Mace.. You should know by now he certainly did. He tried a force push on Mace which was quickly countered.. .He used force lighting on Mace as well. So stop acting like it was just a sword fight. You can't prove your case with a negative bud. That is awful debating. The whole.. oh well this person didn't do this or that... if he did he could've won. You can't prove your case with a negative. If that's how we debated EVERY SINGLE fight could be called into question and we could go.. see this person didn't do that move, and had they, they would've won. As you can see, that is a slippery slop that has no merits in a debate.

The Force Lighting he had to shoot from a position of being on his butt.

No force push was shown in the movie. One was described in the novel, and one in the script, and both have Windu barely surviving it. So just imagine how different the fight would be had he BEGAN the fight with his Far Superior Force Powers. Or fought Windu in a more open environment like he did Yoda, when unleashing his Far Superior Force Powers?

You know I'm right KT!

Yeah difference here is we're questioning something Sidious didn't do which can be directly attributed to the beginning of the fight where Sidious faced 4 Jedi!



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace's use of shatterpoint and Vaapad are what got him the victory. This is stated in the novel. AT NO POINT was it stated he won because of the 3 Jedi. Obviously I asked for proof above and we'll see if you produce the narration that support your theory. If not, we hve proof on why he won... because of his skills... vaapad and shatterpoint. Why try and theorize why he won when the book tells us why he won.


He won via Shatterpoint and Vapaad is just another way of saying he won via a Lightsaber duel. A duel that began with him having help, and took place in an environment which would favor Dueling over Force Powers.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Point is, Mace beat Sids and no amount of excuses or horrible debating can change that.


And no amount of extreme bias is going to change the fact that Windu had help at the beginning of the fight. He had help and an environment which did not favor Sidious's power advantages at all.

Yoda on the other hand stalemated Sidious facing him 1 VS 1 the whole fight, and had to deal with Sidious in a much more open environment and face his full Force powers unleashed.

Windu would likely have not survived that scenario.

He's no.3 after Yoda and Sidious pal. No amount of extreme bias is going to change that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm no, actually since it's you whose trying to make a direct comparison between Windu's 4 on 1 fight, and Yoda's 1 on 1 fight, the Onus is on you to prove those extra 3 bits of help Windu has made no difference to the fight whatsoever.

Just the fact that they were in the fight means they effected the fight, unless you can somehow prove they didn't. Especially seen as Sidious had Windu on the defense for the first 20 seconds of the fight, if he could have devoted those first 7 seconds solely on Windu as well, then of course there's a decent chance he could have been on the winning end of the entire fight.

Not to mention the obvious fact which you keep ignoring that Sidious could have BEGAN the whole fight using his far superior Force powers, which makes the whole thing a completely different fight.

LOL The dialogue in the films, the stunt coordinator, the novel and Lucas himself all made it perfectly clear that Yoda is the most powerful opponent in combat, not Windu. So stop grasping at straws asking for evidence.









The fact that you think it's perfectly normal to KO 3 other combatants at the beginning of a fight, and not have that tire you or effect your performance in the slightest shows you've either never thrown a punch in your life, or you're just being blindly biased here.

The fact that those 3 combatants were interferring at a point when the fight was going Sidious's way is all the proof I need that the Saber fight could have gone differently without them.

Even arguing that the environment, other combatants and distractions don't effect a fight in any way shows your naivity in this area. Either that or your bias is blinding you. I'm guessing it's the second.


Again the proof that the environment and other factors effected the fight is in the result of that fight and the Yoda vs Sidious fight.

Also you need to learn a bit about how narratives work in novels. The part of the ROTS Novel which told us Dooku was tired was told from Dooku's perspective. The Mace vs Sidious fight was NOT given from Sidious's perspective.






So Yoda stepping down from his duties as Master for a while make Windu a better duelist?

Yoda took charge when the Galaxy went to war- that should tell you something.

Yoda's the best all out combatant. You could argue Windu might be his equal in a pure duel, but I sure wouldn't put money on it, and most the evidence(film dialogue, Lucas's statement, EU Sources) suggests Yoda's the best in that regard as well.




The Force Lighting he had to shoot from a position of being on his butt.

No force push was shown in the movie. One was described in the novel, and one in the script, and both have Windu barely surviving it. So just imagine how different the fight would be had he BEGAN the fight with his Far Superior Force Powers. Or fought Windu in a more open environment like he did Yoda, when unleashing his Far Superior Force Powers?

You know I'm right KT!

Yeah difference here is we're questioning something Sidious didn't do which can be directly attributed to the beginning of the fight where Sidious faced 4 Jedi!






He won via Shatterpoint and Vapaad is just another way of saying he won via a Lightsaber duel. A duel that began with him having help, and took place in an environment which would favor Dueling over Force Powers.





And no amount of extreme bias is going to change the fact that Windu had help at the beginning of the fight. He had help and an environment which did not favor Sidious's power advantages at all.

Yoda on the other hand stalemated Sidious facing him 1 VS 1 the whole fight, and had to deal with Sidious in a much more open environment and face his full Force powers unleashed.

Windu would likely have not survived that scenario.

He's no.3 after Yoda and Sidious pal. No amount of extreme bias is going to change that.

False... YOU MADE the claim that those 3 jedi negatively effected Sids... That leaves the BURDEN DIRECTLY ON YOU. YOU made that claim not me... Me disagreeing with YOUR claim.. doesn't leave the onus on me. Not how logical debating works. If you'd like I'll go back through the thread.. show you were the first person to bring that aspect of the fight up.. You know it was you.. but if you still think the onus is on me.. I'll do so. You know you did, and thus you know it's your case to prove. Problem is...

1. The Novel
2. The Movie
3. The script
4 The commentary

SAY NOTHING ABOUT HIM BEING IN ANYWAY NEGATIVELY effected by the 3 Jedi. PERIOD. Not only do they say nothing about it being a negative... they mention nothing about that being why he won. The reasons given why Mace won are...

1. Vaapad
2. Shatterpoint
3. His Skills
4. His determination

All of those things are LISTED as reasons why he won. Lucas even goes out of his way to say MACE OVERPOWERED Sids... He didn't say... Sids threw the fight.. he didn't say Sids was tired from the fight and that's why Mace won. Nope nothing of the sort.

As you can see DP the facts and proof lie DIRECTLY on my side. The list why Mace won and nothing is said in any medium about the things you say why he won. Yet, all the reasons I listed are DRIECTLY said in various forms. To even try and pontificate like you have the evidence on your side is literally laughable. You do admit more proof lies on my side correct?

Debates don't work that way.. We can't and don't say.. well this person didn't do this power or use this technique or they would've won. Do you know what conjecture and speculation are? Do you know how those words are defined? They aren't forms of proofs. We could say that for any real life for fiction fight. We could say.. Well Silva would've won had he not thrown that kick that broke his leg and instead kicked his head. Ummm okay... sure.. maybe.. but we'll never know. You say Sids could've done this and that isn't proof nor is it a given he would've won had he done so. Which is EXACTLY why that is considered a form of proof. Speculation is never admissible. Do you understand this point?

You just admitted Sids used force powers.. Used lighting... used his sword.. All the things you say he could've used HE DID USE. Maybe not in he way you want in your fantasy dreams that would've given him a win but he still used them. It made no difference Mace won. Period.

you seem to not understand something AGAIN... The novel SAYS Dooku was tired and fatigued. It doesn't matter from what perspective that comes from. If the writer shows he can IN ANY WHICH WAY OR FORM talk about Fatigue and is well aware you can get fatigued fighting multiple people.. Then they actively know this and incorporate them in the story. He said NOTHIGN about Sids being fatigued.. he could've done so at any point or in any way. Gues what he didn't. Now either post the narration that says he was negatively effected by the 3 jedi or concede you're only speculating.

Sometimes some arguments made by good theorist and analyst can be considered as canon !!!

They even some times make entire documentaries on it !!!! Yhea that's ****ing true !!!
Sometimes so much devlopped theory cannot be denied.. And one of them is that's sidious have no problem against the 3 Jedi, not even with windu part of his plan !
He even send the vision to anakin !!!

This point is so matterless.... XD Effected or not effected who care?

Don't listen bullshits, you know sometimes their are thorist who know betters the storyline in every details, more I say, more than the creator (and if you have helped to re-rewrite Revan storyline you will Know how true it is...)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
False... YOU MADE the claim that those 3 jedi negatively effected Sids... That leaves the BURDEN DIRECTLY ON YOU. YOU made that claim not me... Me disagreeing with YOUR claim.. doesn't leave the onus on me. Not how logical debating works. If you'd like I'll go back through the thread.. show you were the first person to bring that aspect of the fight up.. You know it was you.. but if you still think the onus is on me.. I'll do so. You know you did, and thus you know it's your case to prove. Problem is...

1. The Novel
2. The Movie
3. The script
4 The commentary

SAY NOTHING ABOUT HIM BEING IN ANYWAY NEGATIVELY effected by the 3 Jedi. PERIOD. Not only do they say nothing about it being a negative... they mention nothing about that being why he won.


What? That doesn't need to be said. He had help. It's upto you to prove the fight would have gone exactly the same way had he not had help in the beginning. Especially given that Sidious was the one who had Windu heavily on the defensive for those first 20seconds. Samuel L even notes that, it was hard to choreograph a fight where your just constantly being driven back- or something to that effect.

So to say that having to kill 3 Jedi Masters didn't effect at least THAT part of the fight AT ALL, is completely absurd.

Those are the factors of the fight, if you think the factors of the fight didn't influence the fight at all, then it's up to you to prove that.

Especially since your the one comparing how Windu did against Sidious to how Yoda did against Sidious, and Yoda had NO ONE helping him. Not even for a second.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The reasons given why Mace won are...

1. Vaapad
2. Shatterpoint
3. His Skills
4. His determination



Right so basically his Saber skills and will power. All out matched by Yoda who failed to defeat Sidious.

And btw all this Vapaad and Shatterpoint stuff was noted in the novel which stated Sidious Lightning was beyond Mace's ability to handle.

So I don't know what source you're referring to which states outright that Windu was just better and more Powerful than Sidious in 1 on 1 combat.






Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All of those things are LISTED as reasons why he won. Lucas even goes out of his way to say MACE OVERPOWERED Sids... He didn't say... Sids threw the fight.. he didn't say Sids was tired from the fight and that's why Mace won. Nope nothing of the sort.


I think your continuing an argument you've had with someone else, because I never said Sidious threw the fight. That's what happens when you don't think logically and lash out from a perspective of extreme bias.

Lucas also didn't say Mace won "BECAUSE HE'S SIMPLY BETTER THAN THE EMPEROR IN EVERY WAY.."

So Lucas didn't give any explanation as to how or why Windu Overpowered Sidious one way or the other.

The only reasoning Lucas did state was the reason Sidious looked weak in the Lightning Blast. And that reason was that he was Faking his weakness.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As you can see DP the facts and proof lie DIRECTLY on my side. The list why Mace won and nothing is said in any medium about the things you say why he won. Yet, all the reasons I listed are DRIECTLY said in various forms. To even try and pontificate like you have the evidence on your side is literally laughable. You do admit more proof lies on my side correct?


The only proof you have is that Windu beat Sidious in close-quarter combat with help at the beginning of the fight.

Which I'm not even denying. The proof you're lacking is that Windu would have beat Sidious even in a 1 vs 1. Given that a More Powerful Jedi than Windu, one who was a More Devastating threat to Sidious, went All-Out and still failed to defeat him, is all the proof I need that Windu would have lost in that scenario.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Debates don't work that way.. We can't and don't say.. well this person didn't do this power or use this technique or they would've won. Do you know what conjecture and speculation are? Do you know how those words are defined? They aren't forms of proofs. We could say that for any real life for fiction fight. We could say.. Well Silva would've won had he not thrown that kick that broke his leg and instead kicked his head. Ummm okay... sure.. maybe.. but we'll never know. You say Sids could've done this and that isn't proof nor is it a given he would've won had he done so. Which is EXACTLY why that is considered a form of proof. Speculation is never admissible. Do you understand this point?


Yeah but I'm not talking about Sidious's personal choices "If he did this instead of that." I'm talking about the direct restrictions immediately placed on him with Windu having help.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You just admitted Sids used force powers.. Used lighting... used his sword.. All the things you say he could've used HE DID USE. Maybe not in he way you want in your fantasy dreams that would've given him a win but he still used them. It made no difference Mace won. Period.


Oh please, he didn't get to use anywhere close to his full level of Power on Windu, like he did against Yoda.

Did you see Multiple Senate Pods come crashing down on Windu? Yes or No?

And stop comparing the Lightning shots as well, where Sidious was shooting from a position of lying on his butt, pretending to be weak, compared to the continuous full powered barrage Yoda faced from a proper standing position.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
you seem to not understand something AGAIN... The novel SAYS Dooku was tired and fatigued. It doesn't matter from what perspective that comes from. If the writer shows he can IN ANY WHICH WAY OR FORM talk about Fatigue and is well aware you can get fatigued fighting multiple people.. Then they actively know this and incorporate them in the story. He said NOTHIGN about Sids being fatigued.. he could've done so at any point or in any way. Gues what he didn't. Now either post the narration that says he was negatively effected by the 3 jedi or concede you're only speculating.


Again you're the one who doesn't understand narratives.

The ROTS Dooku fight was clearly spelled out to us from DOOKU'S PERSPECTIVE.

To say that's meaningless is to show a blatant lack of understanding of how Narratives work.

To repeat myself Again:

"The proof you're lacking is that Windu would have beat Sidious even in a 1 vs 1. Given that a More Powerful Jedi than Windu, one who was a More Devastating threat to Sidious, went All-Out and still failed to defeat him, is all the proof I need that Windu would have lost in that scenario."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? That doesn't need to be said. He had help. It's upto you to prove the fight would have gone exactly the same way had he not had help in the beginning. Especially given that Sidious was the one who had Windu heavily on the defensive for those first 20seconds. Samuel L even notes that, it was hard to choreograph a fight where your just constantly being driven back- or something to that effect.

So to say that having to kill 3 Jedi Masters didn't effect at least THAT part of the fight AT ALL, is completely absurd.

Those are the factors of the fight, if you think the factors of the fight didn't influence the fight at all, then it's up to you to prove that.

Especially since your the one comparing how Windu did against Sidious to how Yoda did against Sidious, and Yoda had NO ONE helping him. Not even for a second.






Right so basically his Saber skills and will power. All out matched by Yoda who failed to defeat Sidious.

And btw all this Vapaad and Shatterpoint stuff was noted in the novel which stated Sidious Lightning was beyond Mace's ability to handle.

So I don't know what source you're referring to which states outright that Windu was just better and more Powerful than Sidious in 1 on 1 combat.









I think your continuing an argument you've had with someone else, because I never said Sidious threw the fight. That's what happens when you don't think logically and lash out from a perspective of extreme bias.

Lucas also didn't say Mace won "BECAUSE HE'S SIMPLY BETTER THAN THE EMPEROR IN EVERY WAY.."

So Lucas didn't give any explanation as to how or why Windu Overpowered Sidious one way or the other.

The only reasoning Lucas did state was the reason Sidious looked weak in the Lightning Blast. And that reason was that he was Faking his weakness.





The only proof you have is that Windu beat Sidious in close-quarter combat with help at the beginning of the fight.

Which I'm not even denying. The proof you're lacking is that Windu would have beat Sidious even in a 1 vs 1. Given that a More Powerful Jedi than Windu, one who was a More Devastating threat to Sidious, went All-Out and still failed to defeat him, is all the proof I need that Windu would have lost in that scenario.




Yeah but I'm not talking about Sidious's personal choices "If he did this instead of that." I'm talking about the direct restrictions immediately placed on him with Windu having help.






Oh please, he didn't get to use anywhere close to his full level of Power on Windu, like he did against Yoda.

Did you see Multiple Senate Pods come crashing down on Windu? Yes or No?

And stop comparing the Lightning shots as well, where Sidious was shooting from a position of lying on his butt, pretending to be weak, compared to the continuous full powered barrage Yoda faced from a proper standing position.





Again you're the one who doesn't understand narratives.

The ROTS Dooku fight was clearly spelled out to us from DOOKU'S PERSPECTIVE.

To say that's meaningless is to show a blatant lack of understanding of how Narratives work.

To repeat myself Again:

"The proof you're lacking is that Windu would have beat Sidious even in a 1 vs 1. Given that a More Powerful Jedi than Windu, one who was a More Devastating threat to Sidious, went All-Out and still failed to defeat him, is all the proof I need that Windu would have lost in that scenario."

Okay all of that and you FAILED to prove your case. You're the one who brought up the three jedi negatively effecting him and you failed provide ANY references in ANY medium stating it had a negative effect on him. You were the first person to bring it up and say it hurt sids... Yet you've failed to prove this case of yours. So I'll accept your concession on this point.

Again... Sids had PLENTY of time to do whatever you wanted him to do. He wasn't under constant attack... He posed and postured a few times... He could've easily launched any number of attacks. He had the time to do so, yet didn't or couldn't. Period. No amount of excuses for him not doing so matter here. He could've and didn't.. period.

So basically typed all that out and didn't offer one inkling of proof to support your case. You just BELIEVE it had a negative effect on him.. you have NO proof it did. I even showed how that very writer was very capable of showing somebody getting tired having fought multiple foes. He's aware of this factor yet failed to even mention it at all with Sidious. If he can for others.. he could've with Sids.. He didn't. Guess why? Because it wasn't a factor at all.

So either provide proof of what you've claimed or there's is no need to respond further.

I was under the impression Vapaad is simply Sidious Kryptonite. Hence why Mace won a fight he should never have won, while in turn losing out to Dooku, who is no Sidious.

Even so, the presence of Vapaad as kryptonite means Mace+Dooku should do it. Mace is either capable or nearly capable, and Dooku is more then Makashi enough to finish the job.

Mace+Anakin could do it too. Had Anakin attacked Sidious instead of Mace, Sidious is done.

The book clearly explains why he wins and never, not once in ANY medium does it say because of the 3 jedi fodder or because Palps wasn't able to use his power. Not ANY place does this theory of DP ever get even implied let alone mentioned. Which is why I already accepted his concession on the matter.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay all of that and you FAILED to prove your case. You're the one who brought up the three jedi negatively effecting him and you failed provide ANY references in ANY medium stating it had a negative effect on him. You were the first person to bring it up and say it hurt sids... Yet you've failed to prove this case of yours. So I'll accept your concession on this point.


Again if you want to compare Windu to Yoda (who failed to defeat Sidious), then the circumstances must be equal.

The circumstances were not equal, as Yoda faced Sidious all alone from the beginning of the fight to the end. And Yoda took the full blunt of Sidious's Force powers. Windu did not.

So if you want us to believe that no, there was no difference made by the 3 Jedi and closed environment, then the onus is on you to prove that.

Especially since pretty much every source has Yoda as the most powerful and dangerous Jedi to the Sith, not Windu.

Therefore I'm the one who accepts your concession, that you can not prove the 3 Jedi and closed environment had Zero effect on the way the fight went.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again... Sids had PLENTY of time to do whatever you wanted him to do. He wasn't under constant attack... He posed and postured a few times... He could've easily launched any number of attacks. He had the time to do so, yet didn't or couldn't. Period. No amount of excuses for him not doing so matter here. He could've and didn't.. period.


In your opinion.

Fact is it wasn't a fair 1 vs 1 fight. The 3 Jedi (at the very least) prevented Sidious from going all out with his Far Superior Force powers, and forced Sidious into close quarter combat. That's the very least amount of difference they made. But chances are they also effected his Saber performance against Windu, by at least a small amount.

That's the truth of it. Windu had help. Yoda did not. No amount of excuses will change that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So basically typed all that out and didn't offer one inkling of proof to support your case. You just BELIEVE it had a negative effect on him.. you have NO proof it did. I even showed how that very writer was very capable of showing somebody getting tired having fought multiple foes. He's aware of this factor yet failed to even mention it at all with Sidious. If he can for others.. he could've with Sids.. He didn't. Guess why? Because it wasn't a factor at all.


The proof is in the Jedi being there. Every factor effects a fight. Whether it would have been different or not without those 3 Factors is for you to prove.

If a Boxer goes 3 rounds before facing his main opponent, then that will factor into his fight with his main opponent. No proof is required there.

And the proof that Windu would lose a Majority against Sidious on his own, is right there for you to see, when the Best YODA can do is stalemate Sidious. And Yoda is a more powerful and more devastating opponent to Sidious than Windu is. Fact.

Windu is on Par with Mother Talzin, who is below Sidious.

Windu and Talzin are simply the next most Powerful Beings in the Galaxy AFTER Yoda and Sidious. But you know sometimes the No.2 guys can take a win against the No.1 guys. And that's a lot more probable when the No.2 guys begin the fight with help LOL.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So either provide proof of what you've claimed or there's is no need to respond further.


Like I said I've proven my case. The more Powerful opponent fails to defeat Sidious on his own. Therefore the differing factors of the Windu fight MUST have made a significant difference.

I've proven my case, but you've failed to prove yours.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The book clearly explains why he wins and never, not once in ANY medium does it say because of the 3 jedi fodder or because Palps wasn't able to use his power. Not ANY place does this theory of DP ever get even implied let alone mentioned. Which is why I already accepted his concession on the matter.


Actually the book makes it clear that Yoda was the more Powerful and more Devastating Opponent against Sidious than Windu was.

That is clear proof right there.

You on the other hand have failed to provide your proof, so I'll be the one to accept your concession

Yoda's not relevant in this, because the opening premise said you can't put Yoda on the Strike team.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again if you want to compare Windu to Yoda (who failed to defeat Sidious), then the circumstances must be equal.

The circumstances were not equal, as Yoda faced Sidious all alone from the beginning of the fight to the end. And Yoda took the full blunt of Sidious's Force powers. Windu did not.

So if you want us to believe that no, there was no difference made by the 3 Jedi and closed environment, then the onus is on you to prove that.

Especially since pretty much every source has Yoda as the most powerful and dangerous Jedi to the Sith, not Windu.

Therefore I'm the one who accepts your concession, that you can not prove the 3 Jedi and closed environment had Zero effect on the way the fight went.




In your opinion.

Fact is it wasn't a fair 1 vs 1 fight. The 3 Jedi (at the very least) prevented Sidious from going all out with his Far Superior Force powers, and forced Sidious into close quarter combat. That's the very least amount of difference they made. But chances are they also effected his Saber performance against Windu, by at least a small amount.

That's the truth of it. Windu had help. Yoda did not. No amount of excuses will change that.




The proof is in the Jedi being there. Every factor effects a fight. Whether it would have been different or not without those 3 Factors is for you to prove.

If a Boxer goes 3 rounds before facing his main opponent, then that will factor into his fight with his main opponent. No proof is required there.

And the proof that Windu would lose a Majority against Sidious on his own, is right there for you to see, when the Best YODA can do is stalemate Sidious. And Yoda is a more powerful and more devastating opponent to Sidious than Windu is. Fact.

Windu is on Par with Mother Talzin, who is below Sidious.

Windu and Talzin are simply the next most Powerful Beings in the Galaxy AFTER Yoda and Sidious. But you know sometimes the No.2 guys can take a win against the No.1 guys. And that's a lot more probable when the No.2 guys begin the fight with help LOL.





Like I said I've proven my case. The more Powerful opponent fails to defeat Sidious on his own. Therefore the differing factors of the Windu fight MUST have made a significant difference.

I've proven my case, but you've failed to prove yours.





Actually the book makes it clear that Yoda was the more Powerful and more Devastating Opponent against Sidious than Windu was.

That is clear proof right there.

You on the other hand have failed to provide your proof, so I'll be the one to accept your concession

I've already accepted your concession on this point. Either post the evidence or give it up already. YOU made the claim that the three jedi negatively effected Sids... NOW PROVE IT. It's not up to me to prove your case. How about this... let me ask you one question on the matter.

Is it not true, that there isn't one mention in ANY medium that the three jedi negatively effected Sids. Is this not true?

In the very same novel with the very same writer.. Did he or did he not make mention of multiple foes having a negative effect on Dooku? He's clearly aware of the potential factor yet never bothers to mention it when Mace and Sids fought correct?

You can go on and on about how Yoda didn't defeat him and how that proves your case... It doesn't, it's just another fallacy you're trying to pass off as proof. Just because Whitaker beat Julio Chavez who's better all time than McGirt... Doesn't mean McGirt can't give Whitaker a better fight. I can really tell you don't have much MMA or Boxing experience to say what you have. Styles make fights and every fight is different. Each person presents different strengths and weakness.

The writer goes out of his way to list the reasons Mace won... LUCAS HIMSELF SAYS WINDU can compete with Sids and overpowered him. Thus, Mace CAN beat Sids alone by Lucas own words. He didn't say he can compete if 3 jedi tire him out first. Nope. He said you need to be Yoda or Mace to beat Sids. PERIOD. This proves beyond any doubt Mace can beat Sids one v one. Either way, the writer goes out of his way to list the reasons mace won... Vaapad... Shatterpoint... endurance... will power etc etc. He make NO mention about the 3 jedi. Further, Yoda and Mace couldn't be further apart in skills either.

Mace uses Vaapad which is great against DS... Yoda doesn't know Vaapad and uses Ataru. This HUGE factor alone could be why mace did better, but clearly evidence slapping you in the face isn't good enough. Same with Shatterpoint.. a skill Yoda doesn't have and was useful to Mace against Sids. Do you agree these factors were mentioned as why mace won and not one mention of 3 other Jedi? Correct or no? Mace's size and and strength allowed him to hold onto his saber when Yoda couldn't. Sids blasted it out of his hand with ease. Mace took a concentrated sustained blast from Sids and never got his saber knocked out of his hand. All these difference between Yoda and Mace are why mace won. They are mentioned.. they are proof... All you have is.. .Well Yoda didn't win and Mace did.. thus something was wrong. This shows your complete lack of fighting expertise or you'd know this is a common theme.

NOW... answer my questions and either prove your case or drop it and admit you have nothing but speculation.. not one ounce of evidence is on your side.

Revan and Malak.

@KuRuPT Thanosi. It should also be noted that in an interview, Matthew Stoverstated that lucas worked very closely with him on that novel, making some changes, giving his input etc. So imo I think we can correctly assume that GL is supporting the fact that Jedi weren't tiring Sidious out. If GL had wanted to put that in, he would have.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@KuRuPT Thanosi. It should also be noted that in an interview, Matthew Stoverstated that lucas worked very closely with him on that novel, making some changes, giving his input etc. So imo I think we can correctly assume that GL is supporting the fact that Jedi weren't tiring Sidious out. If GL had wanted to put that in, he would have.

We all know this.. I've accepted his concession on this matter until he provides any evidence.

KT you're just repeating yourself and not addressing my points at all.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I've already accepted your concession on this point. Either post the evidence or give it up already. YOU made the claim that the three jedi negatively effected Sids... NOW PROVE IT. It's not up to me to prove your case. How about this... let me ask you one question on the matter.


I've proved it over and over again.

You're just blocking your ears saying "lalalalalalal I'm not listening."

Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. Yoda is superior to Windu in every way. He's a better duleist, he has better Tk and Force Powers, he's simply More Powerful hands down. End of.

What was the difference between Yoda's fight and Windu's fight? Well there were 3 differences- Tiin, Kolar and Fisto. Plus a 4th which was the more open environment where Sidious could unleash his full power without any issue.

If Windu fought Sidious on his own, in a more open environment like Yoda did, THEN and ONLY THEN could you make the argument that Windu was simply a better combatant to take Sidious down than Yoda was.

But No One working on Canon anywhere has suggested that. It's just your own fallacy.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Is it not true, that there isn't one mention in ANY medium that the three jedi negatively effected Sids. Is this not true?


So basically you just want to completely ignore the differing factors of both fights?

Great. Keep your fingers in your ears, and just close your eyes at the start of the Windu vs Sidious fight.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the very same novel with the very same writer.. Did he or did he not make mention of multiple foes having a negative effect on Dooku? He's clearly aware of the potential factor yet never bothers to mention it when Mace and Sids fought correct?


Again you're not understanding Narratives. And your lack of reading comprehension is getting irritating especially since you're attempting to use the Novel as your main source of proof.

That fight was written mainly from Dooku's perspective. We never got Sidious's perspective on either the Windu or Yoda fight.

But what the same writer did make very clear, is that YODA was the More Devastatingly Powerful Foe against Sidious than Windu was, and yet even Yoda was not capable of defeating Sidious 1 v 1.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can go on and on about how Yoda didn't defeat him and how that proves your case... It doesn't, it's just another fallacy you're trying to pass off as proof. Just because Whitaker beat Julio Chavez who's better all time than McGirt... Doesn't mean McGirt can't give Whitaker a better fight. I can really tell you don't have much MMA or Boxing experience to say what you have. Styles make fights and every fight is different. Each person presents different strengths and weakness.


Urm excuse me, you've clearly never thrown a punch in your life if you think throwing 3 KO punches immediately prior to facing your main opponent won't effect your performance at all.

You also have no clue on fighting if you think adding 3 weaker combatants at the start of the fight isn't going to change the way you handle the fight at all.

In your analogy if Whitaker has to go a round immediately before facing McGirt, and then McGirt performed better against Whitaker than Chavez did, would that suddenly mean McGrit would perform better against Whitaker than Chavez would EVERY SINGLE TIME, based solely on the One fight, where Whitaker had to go a round immediately before the fight?

Of course not. Use some common sense.




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The writer goes out of his way to list the reasons Mace won... LUCAS HIMSELF SAYS WINDU can compete with Sids and overpowered him. Thus, Mace CAN beat Sids alone by Lucas own words. He didn't say he can compete if 3 jedi tire him out first. Nope. He said you need to be Yoda or Mace to beat Sids. PERIOD. This proves beyond any doubt Mace can beat Sids one v one. Either way, the writer goes out of his way to list the reasons mace won... Vaapad... Shatterpoint... endurance... will power etc etc. He make NO mention about the 3 jedi. Further, Yoda and Mace couldn't be further apart in skills either.


Urm despite all the excuses your hiding behind- Lucas, "The Writer", Nick Gillard, EVERYONE involved in Canon has outright Stated Yoda's the No. 1 Combatant. Mace is No.2.

Therefore Mace's victory, where Yoda failed comes down to the circumstances revolving around both fights.

This isn't hard to comprehend. If you honestly think the combatant environment and other factors as big as bringing aid to the fight, doesn't effect the fight AT ALL, then you really need to brush up on your military history.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace uses Vaapad which is great against DS... Yoda doesn't know Vaapad and uses Ataru. This HUGE factor alone could be why mace did better, but clearly evidence slapping you in the face isn't good enough. Same with Shatterpoint.. a skill Yoda doesn't have and was useful to Mace against Sids. Do you agree these factors were mentioned as why mace won and not one mention of 3 other Jedi? Correct or no? Mace's size and and strength allowed him to hold onto his saber when Yoda couldn't. Sids blasted it out of his hand with ease. Mace took a concentrated sustained blast from Sids and never got his saber knocked out of his hand. All these difference between Yoda and Mace are why mace won. They are mentioned.. they are proof... All you have is.. .Well Yoda didn't win and Mace did.. thus something was wrong. This shows your complete lack of fighting expertise or you'd know this is a common theme.


As usual you've just put your fingers in your ears and ignored everything I've been saying.

I've already pointed out a couple MAJOR difference between Sidious shooting at Yoda and Sidious shooting at Windu.

Sidious was standing up straight and in a Proper Combat position when Shooting at Yoda. Whilst he was Lying on his ASS whilst shooting at Windu, who was in a great position to deflect the Lightning back down onto Sidious. The Script (written by Lucas himself) also makes it perfectly clear that in a scene which we don't see, Yoda DOES successfully block Sidious's Lightning with HIS SABER.

So again Please Point out to me the scene in the Windu vs Sidious fight where Sidious unleashed his FULL TK ability against Windu the way he did against Yoda. Show me the scene or I'll be the one to Accept Your Concession.

So this idea that Windu is Stronger than Yoda (with his Force enhanced strength obviously) is YOUR OWN FALLACY.

You keep talking about Vapaad and Shatterpoint and Blah Blah all mentioned in the novel and all apparently making Windu a greater threat to Sidious than Yoda. Yet you consistently ignore the Novel makes it very clear that it was YODA who was the biggest threat to Sidious NOT Windu.

Seriously you're the only one proving your complete lack of Combat expertise when you're claiming that the Context of a fight, and Environmental factors in both fights (which were very different), would have had ZERO impact on the result. You're clearly either very naive on these matters or just a fanboy blinding yourself to the truth. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt and suspecting the second.





Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
NOW... answer my questions and either prove your case or drop it and admit you have nothing but speculation.. not one ounce of evidence is on your side.


I've given you a long and thorough answer, providing all the relevant Proofs.

It's now up to you to show me Sidious unleashing his full TK and Force Powers, from a proper combat position on Windu, something he clearly could have unleashed in a more open environment where he wasn't put in a 4 on 1 position to start with.

It's upto you now to provide EVIDENCE of your claim. Something you've failed to do so far.

If you can not then you might as well concede, and put your fanboyism and pride behind you for once and admit you're wrong here, and that Yoda is superior and more powerful in every way, and that Windu's win was clearly a context specific win.

Can Windu put up a Great Fight against Sidious every time? Sure. That's why Lucas said he can Compete. But can he win a Majority, when Yoda can't? Hell no.

Arguably muscle is something in Windu's favor, he's show more, but that'd be another thing where the limited area helped him out.

I consider Mace and Yoda equals. Yoda is more powerful but he's got physical limitations, while Windu doesn't, so it kind of evens things out. Yoda can absorb lightning bare handed but that's more to do with having a unique talent rather than being more powerful.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@KuRuPT Thanosi. It should also be noted that in an interview, Matthew Stoverstated that lucas worked very closely with him on that novel, making some changes, giving his input etc. So imo I think we can correctly assume that GL is supporting the fact that Jedi weren't tiring Sidious out. If GL had wanted to put that in, he would have.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We all know this.. I've accepted his concession on this matter until he provides any evidence.


1. I never claimed those 3 combatants clearly TREMENDOUSLY TIRED Sidious. My argument that they MAY HAVE SLIGHTLY Tired him, was superfluous to the Main Point which was they Forced Sidious into Close-Quarter combat with Windu, denying him the Option of going all Out with his much greater Force Powers. It was not only those 3 combatants which restricted that but probably also the more closed environment than the one Sidious faced Yoda in.

2. The Novel actually does make it clear it took some time for Windu to fully sink into Vapaad, and the other combatants seemed to have lasted longer in the novel. So the novel certainly does suggest that those 3 combatants made a difference.

3. The Novel makes it more than clear that Yoda was the greater threat to Sidious (in combat) than Windu or any other Jedi were.

4. And all this was explained without even getting Sidious's perspective on both fights. So you both still don't seem to understand how Narratives work.

5. And finally, but probably most importantly, that's lame reasoning in any case, that "Lucas could have requested an addition there, so why didn't he". Probably because Lucas was more concerned with the narrative of the story than "Who beats who in a fight!!!" For someone accusing me of speculating KT, you sure are bringing A LOT of speculation to your own argument.