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i havent been on here in a while and the first thing i see is people saying goku is ls. i dont think he is ls. relavistic at best. if he was lightspeed there wouldnt be a need for instant transmission.


lets settle this once and for all why is goku light speed where are the consistant feats? why do people think hes ls

He's not. The end

i think the same but i guess there are those on here that do

If you were traveling across an entire system, by chance, an instant would be more practical than light speed. That said, I'd personally put Goku's (current) best travel speed at relativistic (unless Akira's statement about Whis, Beerus, and Goku can be accurately quantified and scaled down from Whis to Goku to suggest anything higher).

Travel speed? Goku surpasses time itself. Don't forget about IT.

Combat speed? Same.

However, WITHOUT Instant transmission, Goku is still ridiculously faster than light, in both combat, and travel speed. I can re-post the proof I use on here all the time, if I need to.

Basically though, Goku in base form after healing on Namek is 77,000 times faster than light.

Nope

Lolno.

lmao (face palm)

Originally posted by Sacred 117
If you were traveling across an entire system, by chance, an instant would be more practical than light speed. That said, I'd personally put Goku's (current) best travel speed at relativistic (unless Akira's statement about Whis, Beerus, and Goku can be accurately quantified and scaled down from Whis to Goku to suggest anything higher).


thats true but he uses it to get around the earth he wouldnt need to if he was ls and i agree with everything else in this post

Originally posted by chasedown
thats true but he uses it to get around the earth he wouldnt need to if he was ls and i agree with everything else in this post

Even from a hypothetical standpoint that reservedly puts Goku at LS, he'd still have to power up to hit that, which would still be less practical than simply teleporting.

Originally posted by juggerman
This short exchage disproves your ridiculous stance

So does this one:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2985-3/dragon-ball/chapter-336.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2985-4/dragon-ball/chapter-336.html

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Even from a hypothetical standpoint that reservedly puts Goku at LS, he'd still have to power up to hit that, which would still be less practical than simply teleporting.

thats true

Originally posted by juggerman
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-8/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-9/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-10/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-11/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-12/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

This short exchage disproves your ridiculous stance

How? By Buu needing to find Goku and Vegeta because Goku briefly slipped him by moving instantly across the globe, surpassing speed itself?

Originally posted by juggerman
So does this one:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2985-3/dragon-ball/chapter-336.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2985-4/dragon-ball/chapter-336.html

By what, proving that instant transmission is faster than any of the Z-fighters can register? That's obvious.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How? By Buu needing to find Goku and Vegeta because Goku briefly slipped him by moving instantly across the globe, surpassing speed itself?



Buu has a MUCH higher PL than Goku meaning he is faster than Goku

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
By what, proving that instant transmission is faster than any of the Z-fighters can register? That's obvious.

If Goku was an established Lightspeeder than being able to go to Roshi's house wouldn't be a surprise

Sorry for the big-ish post.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
The distance Goku traveled, between Frieza's ship and where Frieza was, was half the circumference of the planet; 70,131.25 km, at that point.




+Goku states they're not far from. Would not say so if they were at the furthest point possible.

+At full speed it takes him an hour to cover gaps on the planet. Not half or quarter of the planet, just a gap. Knowing this, just how far do you think they could have gotten before Goku got up, which Vegeta says will take 40-50 mins? This tells us that even if they were flying away at max speed for the entire time, which ignores the whole wishing and fighting, they still wouldn't have reached the opposite side.

+The trio snuck away using minimum ki to not get detected. You think a minimum ki Dende could cover the entire planet in a few minutes when a max ki Krillen takes an hour to cover a fraction of the planet?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Goku flew across half the distance of Namek in less time than it took for Frieza's hand to travel to Vegeta.

That gives us the time it would have taken for Frieza's fist to reach Vegeta, which is low-balled to 0.000003s.

Originally posted by juggerman
Buu has a MUCH higher PL than Goku meaning he is faster than Goku

Uh, but it doesn't matter if Goku is moving instantaneously, now does it?

It would if Goku was only on the opposite side of the planet when you believe he has the speed to circle the planet 550,000 times a second, much less Buuhan.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, but it doesn't matter if Goku is moving instantaneously, now does it?

Actually it does. Look at how much talking Goku and Vegeta do while Buu is actively flying to reach them. If he were a light speedster as you are claiming a MASSIVELY weaker character is, then he would have reached them nigh instantly. No talking time

Originally posted by juggerman
If Goku was an established Lightspeeder than being able to go to Roshi's house wouldn't be a surprise

It would if he did so fast enough to slip past the senses of someone almost equal to him in power. Like he did.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sorry for the big-ish post.






+Goku states they're not far from. Would not say so if they were at the furthest point possible.

+At full speed it takes him an hour to cover gaps on the planet. Not half or quarter of the planet, just a gap. Knowing this, just how far do you think they could have gotten before Goku got up, which Vegeta says will take 40-50 mins? This tells us that even if they were flying away at max speed for the entire time, which ignores the whole wishing and fighting, they still wouldn't have reached the opposite side.

+The trio snuck away using minimum ki to not get detected. You think a minimum ki Dende could cover the entire planet in a few minutes when a max ki Krillen takes an hour to cover a fraction of the planet?

1. I've used this a million times already, but again, if someone asked you to walk a kilometer, you'd think that was pretty far/long, right? Well, if the same person had you walk one meter, you'd think it wasn't long/far at all, right? Goku has flown 1 million kilometers before, when he was astronomically weaker/slower and has that much less stamina. I'd think 140-some thousand miles wouldn't be THAT far for him either, considering he did ten times that when he was ridiculously weaker.

2. Who, Goku? When did it take him, "an hour", to cross a gap on Namek? In fact, he and Frieza flew all over the planet during their fight, considering all the planet sized explosions they threw around, ran from, etc.

3. You're acting like the battle didn't progress to different areas. When Piccolo showed up, the spaceship was nowhere in sight. Let alone how much they moved after that. Again, the scans you're bringing up are all during points that don't matter, as the characters moved while fighting after those points.

Originally posted by BloodRain
It would if Goku was only on the opposite side of the planet when you believe he has the speed to circle the planet 550,000 times a second, much less Buuhan.

Yes, it would, considering Buuhan still lost track of him for a brief instant. He still had to do more than Goku and Vegeta during that short period. They only spoke a bit, and Buu was there.

Originally posted by juggerman
Actually it does. Look at how much talking Goku and Vegeta do while Buu is actively flying to reach them. If he were a light speedster as you are claiming a MASSIVELY weaker character is, then he would have reached them nigh instantly. No talking time

You're forgetting that Goku and Vegeta are also somewhere around that fast.

It's not unbelievable that they could talk for a tiny bit while Buu sat around searching for Goku's ki, and then took off.

That just means it took a few seconds for Buu to find him, since he DID just up and vanish.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
It would if he did so fast enough to slip past the senses of someone almost equal to him in power. Like he did.

They weren't surprised he was able to "slip past the senses" They are clearly surprised he was able to travel that distance hence the comment about the distance and no comment about not being able to follow the movements.

Also no one there was "almost equal to his power" .

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're forgetting that Goku and Vegeta are also somewhere around that fast.

It's not unbelievable that they could talk for a tiny bit while Buu sat around searching for Goku's ki, and then took off.

That just means it took a few seconds for Buu to find him, since he DID just up and vanish.

I'm not forgetting anything. You clearly see in the scan Buu found their ki and was closing in yet they still had time to talk for a bit before he arrived. If Buu were even close to lightspeed there would have been zero time for that. It's not like they were running from him or anything. They stayed in the same spot yet it clearly took Buu a little while to get there.

I'll even break it down for you since I'm such a nice guy

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-...hapter-504.html

On this page we see Buu flying and say "Another strong person's shown up" meaning he has a lock on Goku and Vegeta's ki and location. Meaning he is now en route to them.

Then we see Goku still has enough time to ask Vegeta to fuse and according to the "...." Vegeta has a moment to pause before tell Goku he hates him.

Buu is still en route

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-10/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Vegeta then goes on a long rant about how Goku was an ******* cuz he held back instead of ragestomping him with SSJ3.

According to the "...." we see Goku has a moment to pause before retorting. Vegeta is still being a turd.

Buu is still en route

Then Goku gets pissed and yells at Vegeta and verbally lays the smackdown on him. Vegeta is taken aback.

Buu is still en route

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-11/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Buu now has a visual.

Goku yells and the two "...." means Vegeta now has two moments to pause.

Vegeta finally agrees and askes for the earring. Goku tosses it. Vegeta struggles to put it on




How the holy hell can anyone see "lightspeed" anywhere here??

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. I've used this a million times already, but again, if someone asked you to walk a kilometer, you'd think that was pretty far/long, right? Well, if the same person had you walk one meter, you'd think it wasn't long/far at all, right? Goku has flown 1 million kilometers before, when he was astronomically weaker/slower and has that much less stamina. I'd think 140-some thousand miles wouldn't be THAT far for him either, considering he did ten times that when he was ridiculously weaker.
Thats an awful comparison because it missed the important part; Where is the limit? For Goku, going to the opposite side is the furthest distance possible he could possibly reach. You do not call the max you can go 'not far'. Hell, in the new scans the have up Goku is saying they're nearby.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. Who, Goku? When did it take him, "an hour", to cross a gap on Namek? In fact, he and Frieza flew all over the planet during their fight, considering all the planet sized explosions they threw around, ran from, etc.
No, Krillen.

Fact 1: Krillen at max speed takes an hour or two to go from A to C.

Fact 2: Goku's recovery took 40-50 minuites.

Your assumption: That in under an hour Krillen went from A to Z.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
3. You're acting like the battle didn't progress to different areas. When Piccolo showed up, the spaceship was nowhere in sight. Let alone how much they moved after that. Again, the scans you're bringing up are all during points that don't matter, as the characters moved while fighting after those points.
That's because it didn't. When forming that post the first time I went through the entire fight from beginning to Goku's arrival. They start off two islands away from the ship. During the fight they jump onto two other islands that I'll assume was in the opposite direction from the ship, though its still only four islands away. The first image I posted shows how close they initially were.






And just because you missed them:
+The trio snuck away using minimum ki to not get detected. You think a minimum ki Dende could cover the entire planet in a few minutes when a max ki Krillen takes an hour to cover a fraction of the planet?

+The area which Goku has the final battle with Frieza is about six islands from the summon point, so eight islands from the ship at most. Which is important because King Kai tells us what Goku is doing, which is going to the ship thats closer to himself.. stating that his own ship is too far away for the SSJ to get to in time, urging Goku to hurry. This tells us two things. First that Frieza's ship cannot be on the opposite side of the planet if Goku's ship is further away, second being that even as a SS1 Goku cannot lightspeed across the planet or he would have instantly been his ship and left the planet at that point.

+"The feat doesn't happen. As we can see Frieza is standing over Vegeta in one scene, and in the next with him he's only over Vegeta with his arm cocked back as Goku appears."

I'd like to propose to you a task, Gogeta. Will you accept?

Originally posted by juggerman
Buu has a MUCH higher PL than Goku meaning he is faster than Goku

He is faster than they can see. It's not like he was moving at his highest of speeds there unless stated otherwise. Do you honestly believe black hair Goku and Vegeta could've detected him if he were moving at his best?

Anyways, yes, DBZ characters early on were light speed characters and they have the fts proving this.

Originally posted by juggerman
I'll even break it down for you since I'm such a nice guy

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-...hapter-504.html

On this page we see Buu flying and say "Another strong person's shown up" meaning he has a lock on Goku and Vegeta's ki and location. Meaning he is now en route to them.

Then we see Goku still has enough time to ask Vegeta to fuse and according to the "...." Vegeta has a moment to pause before tell Goku he hates him.

Buu is still en route

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-10/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Vegeta then goes on a long rant about how Goku was an ******* cuz he held back instead of ragestomping him with SSJ3.

According to the "...." we see Goku has a moment to pause before retorting. Vegeta is still being a turd.

Buu is still en route

Then Goku gets pissed and yells at Vegeta and verbally lays the smackdown on him. Vegeta is taken aback.

Buu is still en route

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-11/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Buu now has a visual.

Goku yells and the two "...." means Vegeta now has two moments to pause.

Vegeta finally agrees and askes for the earring. Goku tosses it. Vegeta struggles to put it on




How the holy hell can anyone see "lightspeed" anywhere here??

You're wrong though. Buu at that stage can move faster than Goku and Vegeta could detect but they were able to see him. Let's be real here, nothing during that scene is proof that he was even attempting to go his tops.

Originally posted by carver9
You're wrong though. Buu at that stage can move faster than Goku and Vegeta could detect but they were able to see him. Let's be real here, nothing during that scene is proof that he was even attempting to go his tops.

He didn't need to go his tops. He was clearly trying to reach them quickly so there is no reason he wouldn't go atleast close to LS especially since characters FATHOMS weaker and slower were "casual lightspeedsters"

Originally posted by carver9
He is faster than they can see. It's not like he was moving at his highest of speeds there unless stated otherwise. Do you honestly believe black hair Goku and Vegeta could've detected him if he were moving at his best?

His top speed isn't needed. If he wanted to reach them, and he were capable of going far beyond LS as you believe, then he wouldn't have even needed to go LS to reach them nigh instantly. He didn't need to cross galaxies here. At most he needed to go halfway around a planet.

Going half the speed of light would have gotten him there before they could have finished a word. A third the speed of light even. So basically you are saying that Goku is a "casual lightspeedster" but Buuhan, who is way way way way way way way stronger and faster can't even "casually" make it around a planet in a few seconds? And to be completely fair he wasn't flying casually either. He was on a mission.

Originally posted by carver9
Anyways, yes, DBZ characters early on were light speed characters and they have the fts proving this.

Nope

Originally posted by chasedown
i havent been on here in a while and the first thing i see is people saying goku is ls. i dont think he is ls. relavistic at best. if he was lightspeed there wouldnt be a need for instant transmission.


lets settle this once and for all why is goku light speed where are the consistant feats? why do people think hes ls

Instant transmission is faster then light speed.

Light speed is not instant.

Originally posted by juggerman
I'll even break it down for you since I'm such a nice guy

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-...hapter-504.html

On this page we see Buu flying and say "Another strong person's shown up" meaning he has a lock on Goku and Vegeta's ki and location. Meaning he is now en route to them.

Then we see Goku still has enough time to ask Vegeta to fuse and according to the "...." Vegeta has a moment to pause before tell Goku he hates him.

Buu is still en route

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-10/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Vegeta then goes on a long rant about how Goku was an ******* cuz he held back instead of ragestomping him with SSJ3.

According to the "...." we see Goku has a moment to pause before retorting. Vegeta is still being a turd.

Buu is still en route

Then Goku gets pissed and yells at Vegeta and verbally lays the smackdown on him. Vegeta is taken aback.

Buu is still en route

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-11/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Buu now has a visual.

Goku yells and the two "...." means Vegeta now has two moments to pause.

Vegeta finally agrees and askes for the earring. Goku tosses it. Vegeta struggles to put it on




How the holy hell can anyone see "lightspeed" anywhere here??

This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard made on here. You're literally using the same junk that Yungz does, lol.

You're LITERALLY arguing about the perspective shown from the series. You might as well argue that Namek actually took a few hours to blow up, because of how long it took in the anime.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149927/3507421-mongol41.jpg

The way they're TALKING here, you wouldn't think they're moving almost a million times faster than light, would you?

Your entire argument is null and void, because Buu found Goku and Vegeta by their ki, and was there three pages later. This entire argument you're presenting is disproven by the fact that EVERY fictional character EVER that has gone FTL, can talk while doing so. This makes no sense, because sound is not even comparable to light in terms of speed, meaning that no one should be able to, but it's a cartoon for gods sake. Chalk it up as PIS if you want, but they do it, so there's no denying the feat.

Originally posted by carver9
He is faster than they can see. It's not like he was moving at his highest of speeds there unless stated otherwise. Do you honestly believe black hair Goku and Vegeta could've detected him if he were moving at his best?

Anyways, yes, DBZ characters early on were light speed characters and they have the fts proving this.

^ This too.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
I'd like to propose to you a task, Gogeta. Will you accept?

Such as?

gokus lightspeed yet it took him forever to travel snakeway both ways.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Such as?

Well, we already know that Whis is definitively MFTL, and Akira made his own statements on the difference in scale of Whis, Beerus, and Goku. Could Whis' exact speed be quantified, you think? If so, I'd like you (or someone) to do that, then scale it down to Goku to see where he ends up (if you wouldn't mind).

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thats an awful comparison because it missed the important part; Where is the limit? For Goku, going to the opposite side is the furthest distance possible he could possibly reach. You do not call the max you can go 'not far'. Hell, in the new scans the have up Goku is saying they're nearby.


No, Krillen.

Fact 1: Krillen at max speed takes an hour or two to go from A to C.

Fact 2: Goku's recovery took 40-50 minuites.

Your assumption: That in under an hour Krillen went from A to Z.


That's because it didn't. When forming that post the first time I went through the entire fight from beginning to Goku's arrival. They start off two islands away from the ship. During the fight they jump onto two other islands that I'll assume was in the opposite direction from the ship, though its still only four islands away. The first image I posted shows how close they initially were.






And just because you missed them:
+The trio snuck away using minimum ki to not get detected. You think a minimum ki Dende could cover the entire planet in a few minutes when a max ki Krillen takes an hour to cover a fraction of the planet?

+The area which Goku has the final battle with Frieza is about six islands from the summon point, so eight islands from the ship at most. Which is important because King Kai tells us what Goku is doing, which is going to the ship thats closer to himself.. stating that his own ship is too far away for the SSJ to get to in time, urging Goku to hurry. This tells us two things. First that Frieza's ship cannot be on the opposite side of the planet if Goku's ship is further away, second being that even as a SS1 Goku cannot lightspeed across the planet or he would have instantly been his ship and left the planet at that point.

+"The feat doesn't happen. As we can see Frieza is standing over Vegeta in one scene, and in the next with him he's only over Vegeta with his arm cocked back as Goku appears."

Again, you're arguing that he would call a distance "far away", despite him being able to cross it casually in his sleep, and having done so to a distance ten times that size in a much weaker form. If the paper boy threw a newspaper to the end of my driveway, just because it's the furthest he could have thrown to me, doesn't mean I'd call that "far away". I'd walk for a couple feet, and pick it up no problem. It's the same thing for Goku. He simply didn't think it was that far, and it's not like it was a well-analyzed, descriptive, and completely accurate statement. Just something he said to himself on the fly, for christ sake. It proves nothing.

http://i17.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/292/dragon-ball-69390.jpg

You can clearly see from this scan, that Frieza's ship is not even in view, while the curvature of Namek IS. My point here, is that these scans are not reliable. Also, Gohan said that it would take Krillin 2 hours to reach Guru's house, and come back. That means it's only a one hour trip to reach Guru's, which was supposed to be almost on the other side of the planet as well, as Piccolo WAS summoned to the other side, and after just a short bit of traveling, came across Nail's battlefield. Also, you're forgetting that it would take him a few hours, conservatively while hiding his power level. While fighting Frieza, and moving during battle, he was going all out(obviously).

I didn't see any scan like that. In fact, when Piccolo got there, the ship wasn't even shown in a single scan, other than while showing Goku.

And just because you don't have the mental capacity to think for yourself:

1. Do you think that it's impossible that Krillin/Gohan carried Dende, as they did when fleeing Dodoria? Also, Gohan used the "few hours" estimate based off of the speed he used when masking his ki. While fighting Frieza, he was going all out. The battle moved through several islands.

2. The battle point between Goku and Frieza is an undefined length from the ship, OTHER than across the planet. Also, WHAT DON'T YOU GET ABOUT THE FACT THAT GOKU AND FRIEZA MOVED ALL OVER THE PLANET WHILE FIGHTING? If the ship is point A, the starting point is B, and Goku's ship is C, they could very well have moved around with the ending point being in between A and B, which is the ONLY thing we can assume, as it's the only statement we were given.

3. What are you trying to say? That since Frieza was not in striking position when Goku took off, that it would have been impossible for him to have attacked? Well, I was lowballing for just such an occasion. Roshi and Krillin traded dozens of blows, AND moved around the ring in the fifth of a second. Therefor, the feat very well DID happen.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Well, we already know that Whis is definitively MFTL, and Akira made his own statements on the difference in scale of Whis, Beerus, and Goku. Could Whis' exact speed be quantified, you think? If so, I'd like you (or someone) to do that, then scale it down to Goku to see where he ends up (if you wouldn't mind).

Hm... Well, to be honest, other than using the scale Toriyama gave us, and scaling it from Goku's speed, I don't think you could.

The reason is because they never told us how far their planet was from King Kai's planet in the first place. They only told us that it took them 26 minutes to reach. However, they were crossing presumably hundreds and thousands of galaxies in order to do so, meaning it WOULD be pretty ridiculously fast. While we have this info though, we still also don't even know how hard Whiss was trying. He accomplished the feat pretty casually, so I would wager that he wasn't even using a fraction of his power to do so. In fact, it seemed that if Bills truly wished, he could have done the same, also very easily.

However, I could scale the numbers of Goku's speed into SSJG, and then the scale Toriyama gave us, making Whiss effectively 90% faster/i.e. stronger, than Goku, which would be pretty easy to calc. I will tell you now though, the calc I recently presented is PRECISELY accurate, for Namek saga Goku's speed. There was nothing stated or shown that could disprove it, and it was supported by many things. Just in case you wanted to know. It may seem like it, because not many people are used to acknowledging DBZ's actual feats, but I'm NOT just wanking here.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

You can clearly see from this scan, that Frieza's ship is not even in view, while the curvature of Namek IS. That might have something to do with the fact that when we see Porunga from Freeza's ship, we see his front. The ship was in front of and a little to the left of Porunga. The scan you posted is a close-up of Porunga from the front, so Freeza's ship obviously wouldn't be visible.

Nice try though.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard made on here. You're literally using the same junk that Yungz does, lol.

You're LITERALLY arguing about the perspective shown from the series. You might as well argue that Namek actually took a few hours to blow up, because of how long it took in the anime.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149927/3507421-mongol41.jpg

The way they're TALKING here, you wouldn't think they're moving almost a million times faster than light, would you?

Your entire argument is null and void, because Buu found Goku and Vegeta by their ki, and was there three pages later. This entire argument you're presenting is disproven by the fact that EVERY fictional character EVER that has gone FTL, can talk while doing so. This makes no sense, because sound is not even comparable to light in terms of speed, meaning that no one should be able to, but it's a cartoon for gods sake. Chalk it up as PIS if you want, but they do it, so there's no denying the feat.

Those aren't speech bubbles when Superman is flying. Those are thought bubbles. You can think faster than you can talk. Also there are a plethora of direct text, both through narration and dialog than say Superman and others can move at light speed. Here you only have your faulty reasonings that must disregard what we actually see and are told. Also this is about DB. If you want to complain about Superman's speed open a thread

But basically what I'm getting from you is that you want to just chalk it up to PIS? It happens far too often to be just that. And you keep bringing up the anime as if it matters here when the original work tells us otherwise

If Buu could even go 1/100th the speed of light he would have been on top of Goku and Vegeta before they were able to get a word out. He was obviously trying to reach them quickly so even if he didn't wanna go his top speed he still should have been able to circle the planet once in less than a second. He couldn't. And if he can't nobody weaker than him can either

There is only *one* somewhat quantifiable/legitimate travel speed feat in the whole of DBZ, and that was when Goku flew from King Kai's planet back to earth during the Saiyan Saga. However, even that 'feat' leaves quite a bit of guesstimating to be had, as Goku flew in a straight line, thereby bypassing *all* of Snake Way's twists and turns(which would have cut down tremendously on the overall distance he traveled)... But at least we know the distance of Snake Way-proper, and the time it took Goku to fly back to earth. This allows us to come up with a ballpark speed estimate that is at least mathematically conclusive(ish). Without BOTH of those variables, however, ALL you can do is take half-assed GUESSES at his/their speed. Nothing more.

That being said, some of you people act like your idiotic wank-math definitively 'proves'(lol) that Goku's speed far exceeds c, even though neither a stated distance, NOR a stated time, was explicitly mentioned during these feats. Frankly that is absolutely phucking ridiculous, and not even worth the time that others(inc. myself) have taken to thoroughly debunk it. If you want to take wanked-out GUESSES at their speed, go right ahead... But stop trying to sell your wanked-out GUESSES as more than they are. That is all.

Have fun with this short-bus of a thread... G out. salute

Way to make me feel like a jackass for slapping these fools with the pimp hand of logic!

Originally posted by juggerman
He didn't need to go his tops. He was clearly trying to reach them quickly so there is no reason he wouldn't go atleast close to LS especially since characters FATHOMS weaker and slower were "casual lightspeedsters"

And was able to spot them during the end of the panel. He had to search Earth, the entirety of it to find them and he did. Again, it's not like he was going his tops because if he did, they wouldn't have saw him.

if goku is ls how come it took him so long to traverse snake way to get back to his friends during the saiyan saga........ he was flying at top speed too

He wasn't just flying. During that time, I don't think their flying speed was FTL, thunk their reflexes were. It's obvious their combat speed is/burst speeds is>>>>>than their flight.

Question, does anyone have Akira email address?

Originally posted by carver9
And was able to spot them during the end of the panel. He had to search Earth, the entirety of it to find them and he did. Again, it's not like he was going his tops because if he did, they wouldn't have saw him.

He locked on to their location. He was not searching the entire planet. It was a B-Line.

Again it didn't have to be his top speed unless you think Buuhan needs to push himself to reach speeds Goku could reach before he could even go SSJ1. Doesn't hold water

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Again, you're arguing that he would call a distance "far away", despite him being able to cross it casually in his sleep, and having done so to a distance ten times that size in a much weaker form. If the paper boy threw a newspaper to the end of my driveway, just because it's the furthest he could have thrown to me, doesn't mean I'd call that "far away". I'd walk for a couple feet, and pick it up no problem. It's the same thing for Goku. He simply didn't think it was that far, and it's not like it was a well-analyzed, descriptive, and completely accurate statement. Just something he said to himself on the fly, for christ sake. It proves nothing.

No, the argument is that no one says the furthest point possible is not for or nearby. And because it was left unmentioned;
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/21-307.0/compressed/r002.jpg

For added convenience when Piccolo is sent to Namek he says "Damn, they're not anywhere nearby" and "I sense a ridiculously huge ki far away from here". This was said when his PL was by his word surpassing Gohan and Krillin at that time, but stated by Nail to be still weaker than Frieza. Making his PL between 200,000 and 250,000.

Now lets go back to what you just said about Goku not thinking a planet distance away is far because he covered Snake way with a 5,000-8,000 PL.. See at this point you'll need to explain why your evidence doesn't count for Piccolo, when hes meant to be far above that Goku.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You can clearly see from this scan, that Frieza's ship is not even in view, while the curvature of Namek IS. My point here, is that these scans are not reliable. Also, Gohan said that it would take Krillin 2 hours to reach Guru's house, and come back. That means it's only a one hour trip to reach Guru's, which was supposed to be almost on the other side of the planet as well, as Piccolo WAS summoned to the other side, and after just a short bit of traveling, came across Nail's battlefield. Also, you're forgetting that it would take him a few hours, conservatively while hiding his power level. While fighting Frieza, and moving during battle, he was going all out(obviously).

I didn't see any scan like that. In fact, when Piccolo got there, the ship wasn't even shown in a single scan, other than while showing Goku.
Neme already covered this. In the scans with Vegeta we can clearly see that the ship is on the dragons front and right of that image, meaning the island on the bottom right is only the first of two islands from the ship. So this point still stands up.

Lol that would still mean it would take Krillen flying at max speed around an hour to reach "almost the other side", when you're saying Dende can now fly at slow speeds and get to the opposite side while having the whole scuffle with Frieza within 40 minutes? And don't be quick to forget that base Frieza was flying at max speed from Nail to the ship and took the time he did, even with the dragon getting within eyes view. Or as said, Piccolo doing the exact same thing, first with lower then a higher PL than base Frieza.

Yeah, by the time Piccolo shows up they are three or four islands away from the ship. And since then no scan shows more than two islands in the background. Check it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
And just because you don't have the mental capacity to think for yourself:

1. Do you think that it's impossible that Krillin/Gohan carried Dende, as they did when fleeing Dodoria? Also, Gohan used the "few hours" estimate based off of the speed he used when masking his ki. While fighting Frieza, he was going all out. The battle moved through several islands.

2. The battle point between Goku and Frieza is an undefined length from the ship, OTHER than across the planet. Also, WHAT DON'T YOU GET ABOUT THE FACT THAT GOKU AND FRIEZA MOVED ALL OVER THE PLANET WHILE FIGHTING? If the ship is point A, the starting point is B, and Goku's ship is C, they could very well have moved around with the ending point being in between A and B, which is the ONLY thing we can assume, as it's the only statement we were given.

3. What are you trying to say? That since Frieza was not in striking position when Goku took off, that it would have been impossible for him to have attacked? Well, I was lowballing for just such an occasion. Roshi and Krillin traded dozens of blows, AND moved around the ring in the fifth of a second. Therefor, the feat very well DID happen.
Calm son.

1. Dear lord what? Okay, so even though there was not a single flying around instance we see Krillin carrying Dende in this instance, its possible? No. Here's Dende's movement throughout the battle: At the summoning island up until stage 2 Frieza blows it up > then he's healing Krillin on the fourth island he swam up to, as Kirllin was thrown aside, at best he got some distance back, then is told by Piccolo to hide there > healing Piccolo and Vegeta on the same island, then dying there. Thats it. At no point did he either move more, was he carried besides Krillin saving him from the stage 2 blast, or was he even with the others a they were in combat. So yes, it is impossible that Dende was more than three or four islands away from the ship until his death. After that Frieza is kicking ass and still remaining on the same island until Goku shows up.

2. All caps means I'm serious?

They were a nearly the same distance from Frieza's ship as they were to Goku's? You know how far Goku's ship was? It's so close that a slow Gohan with barely any Ki remaining (As said by Piccolo early, back by Krillin saying he cannot fly that fast due to little ki) was carrying Piccolo and still made it to the ship in a short time.

Lets continue from where Dende left us;
Goku fights on that same island > Goku jumps out of the water and kicks Frieza though the next island and into the next, but Frieza hops back to Goku. At this point the trio have flown back and are three islands away > Frieza knocks him in an energy attack down, maybe to the next island > Goku flies back to Frieza who leads him to the next island > they stay here through the cross arm fight, through the kaio-ken, and until the spirit bomb (check it) > Frieza is kicked back by Piccolo around one island back, yes that scared island is the one they were fighting on. We also see that Gohan and Krillen are six islands away, which perfectly how far Frieza has been pushed back > they end up one island closer where Frieza was. Knocked another island back > blasted back another >...

..reverse time. At this point the dragon is brought back right around where the first island was destroyed, as shown from Dende's prespective. And not only do we see this second islands location in relation to where Frieza is, but Frieza also flies back to this area. It is on this island they have their final fight.

So yes, SS1 Goku is currently around four islands away from the ship.


http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/22-328.0/compressed/s003.jpg

And still, King Kai says Goku's ship is too far away.


3. Are you serious? You honesty don't have a counter to this, the foundation of your calc? You can't just say "hey, it could have happened" and call it a fact saying it did, 100%.

Jaysus I wish this part was at the top of the reply so maybe I could have avoided posting all the rest. Literally all you have is an image of Frieza crouching over Vegeta with his arm cocked back, so by that you're saying its proof that he was in mid attack?

Can't facepalm hard enough so go ahead, prove with 100% certainty with scans that Frieza was currently in mid-strike. I'm asking because I can only assume the site I'm on is skipping out on a page or something.

Originally posted by juggerman
He locked on to their location. He was not searching the entire planet. It was a B-Line.

Again it didn't have to be his top speed unless you think Buuhan needs to push himself to reach speeds Goku could reach before he could even go SSJ1. Doesn't hold water

When was that said?

Why bring it up if it had nothing to do with his top speed? If he was going his tops, Goku nor Vegeta, especially at black hair forms wouldn't have detected him which makes your post irrelevant. Now if you have proof of him going his tops and he was still unable to achieve light, then your argument would hold water but until then...

Originally posted by carver9
When was that said?

You're kidding right? Did you even follow the links? He says another strong fighter is here meaning he feels the ki. That's what he was closing in on


Originally posted by carver9
Why bring it up if it had nothing to do with his top speed? If he was going his tops, Goku nor Vegeta, especially at black hair forms wouldn't have detected him which makes your post irrelevant. Now if you have proof of him going his tops and he was still unable to achieve light, then your argument would hold water but until then...

Why would Buuhan need to go his top speed to reach a speed Goku could achieve before he even hit SSJ1?

Originally posted by BloodRain
No, the argument is that no one says the furthest point possible is not for or nearby. And because it was left unmentioned;
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/21-307.0/compressed/r002.jpg

For added convenience when Piccolo is sent to Namek he says "Damn, they're not anywhere nearby" and "I sense a ridiculously huge ki far away from here". This was said when his PL was by his word surpassing Gohan and Krillin at that time, but stated by Nail to be still weaker than Frieza. Making his PL between 200,000 and 250,000.

Now lets go back to what you just said about Goku not thinking a planet distance away is far because he covered Snake way with a 5,000-8,000 PL.. See at this point you'll need to explain why your evidence doesn't count for Piccolo, when hes meant to be far above that Goku.


Neme already covered this. In the scans with Vegeta we can clearly see that the ship is on the dragons front and right of that image, meaning the island on the bottom right is only the first of two islands from the ship. So this point still stands up.

Lol that would still mean it would take Krillen flying at max speed around an hour to reach "almost the other side", when you're saying Dende can now fly at slow speeds and get to the opposite side while having the whole scuffle with Frieza within 40 minutes? And don't be quick to forget that base Frieza was flying at max speed from Nail to the ship and took the time he did, even with the dragon getting within eyes view. Or as said, Piccolo doing the exact same thing, first with lower then a higher PL than base Frieza.

Yeah, by the time Piccolo shows up they are three or four islands away from the ship. And since then no scan shows more than two islands in the background. Check it.


Calm son.

1. Dear lord what? Okay, so even though there was not a single flying around instance we see Krillin carrying Dende in this instance, its possible? No. Here's Dende's movement throughout the battle: At the summoning island up until stage 2 Frieza blows it up > then he's healing Krillin on the fourth island he swam up to, as Kirllin was thrown aside, at best he got some distance back, then is told by Piccolo to hide there > healing Piccolo and Vegeta on the same island, then dying there. Thats it. At no point did he either move more, was he carried besides Krillin saving him from the stage 2 blast, or was he even with the others a they were in combat. So yes, it is impossible that Dende was more than three or four islands away from the ship until his death. After that Frieza is kicking ass and still remaining on the same island until Goku shows up.

2. All caps means I'm serious?

They were a nearly the same distance from Frieza's ship as they were to Goku's? You know how far Goku's ship was? It's so close that a slow Gohan with barely any Ki remaining (As said by Piccolo early, back by Krillin saying he cannot fly that fast due to little ki) was carrying Piccolo and still made it to the ship in a short time.

Lets continue from where Dende left us;
Goku fights on that same island > Goku jumps out of the water and kicks Frieza though the next island and into the next, but Frieza hops back to Goku. At this point the trio have flown back and are three islands away > Frieza knocks him in an energy attack down, maybe to the next island > Goku flies back to Frieza who leads him to the next island > they stay here through the cross arm fight, through the kaio-ken, and until the spirit bomb (check it) > Frieza is kicked back by Piccolo around one island back, yes that scared island is the one they were fighting on. We also see that Gohan and Krillen are six islands away, which perfectly how far Frieza has been pushed back > they end up one island closer where Frieza was. Knocked another island back > blasted back another >...

..reverse time. At this point the dragon is brought back right around where the first island was destroyed, as shown from Dende's prespective. And not only do we see this second islands location in relation to where Frieza is, but Frieza also flies back to this area. It is on this island they have their final fight.

So yes, SS1 Goku is currently around four islands away from the ship.


http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/22-328.0/compressed/s003.jpg

And still, King Kai says Goku's ship is too far away.


3. Are you serious? You honesty don't have a counter to this, the foundation of your calc? You can't just say "hey, it could have happened" and call it a fact saying it did, 100%.

Jaysus I wish this part was at the top of the reply so maybe I could have avoided posting all the rest. Literally all you have is an image of Frieza crouching over Vegeta with his arm cocked back, so by that you're saying its proof that he was in mid attack?

Can't facepalm hard enough so go ahead, prove with 100% certainty with scans that Frieza was currently in mid-strike. I'm asking because I can only assume the site I'm on is skipping out on a page or something.

Basically, I'm replying to this dribble as shortly as possible, given that 99% of what you posted is either untrue, or just completely ridiculous.

1. Again, you're basing your entire argument off of a hastily made statement by someone who's legitimately brain damaged. Not just that, but going by your logic, he shouldn't have said nearby at all, considering they were, even with your ridiculous downplay, AT LEAST SEVERAL ISLANDS AWAY. You're not taking in the context of the statement, so I'm done arguing something I've already disproven undoubtedly to you a dozen times.

2. Was Saiyan saga Goku the one saying that they were "nearby"? No, dummy. Moving on.

3. You still see the curvature of the planet, which is 3.5 times the size of Earth. If I was an idiot like you two, I could pixel scale the distance from that alone. But, I know that Toriyama doesn't draw to scale, unlike you and Neme apparently, so it's a waste of time pointing frivolous things like this out.

4. "The time he did"? You act as though we were given the amount of time it took Frieza to reach them. Only a few brief moments, enough time to make a single wish once Frieza noticed the dragon was summoned.

5. Um, what? In the first few seconds of the fight, Goku and Frieza went to a different island, and after just a bit later, they even destroyed multiple islands, and had to find another to fight on because of Goku's preference.

6. Using your logic by visual perspective, you can still see a defined curvature of the planet, proving Dende was WAY more than, "a few islands", away from Porunga. Don't forget that it is even further from there to the ship, also.

7. So no, SSJ1 Goku is an undefined amount of distance away from the ship, and it wouldn't matter anyway. Since we don't know how fast a planet would explode, we would have to gauge it to similar levels of those present in a supernova. Basically, the debris of the planet when detonated like that, would be launched ridiculously fast, about 10% the speed of light. If Goku didn't know where the ship was, and it wouldn't start that fast, it's no wonder such a blast was so close to catching him.

8. You're also forgetting to take into account the time it took to start his ship up, which is an unknown variable that I can easily use as context for my calc.

9. A counter to what? Literally all you're doing is saying that Krillin didn't carry him, because he didn't carry him. Which is not true. It's very possible, and most likely that he did. This, again, is supported by the fact that Dende had them carry him many times before.

10. Either way, I'm going to use one of your popular arguments, and chock that one up as PIS, as Dende should have been left behind LONG ago, even BEFORE Piccolo showed up. It's just something Toriyama didn't think about, like he said he does all the time.

Originally posted by chasedown
if goku is ls how come it took him so long to traverse snake way to get back to his friends during the saiyan saga........ he was flying at top speed too

Namek saga > Saiyan saga, genius.

Originally posted by juggerman
Those aren't speech bubbles when Superman is flying. Those are thought bubbles. You can think faster than you can talk. Also there are a plethora of direct text, both through narration and dialog than say Superman and others can move at light speed. Here you only have your faulty reasonings that must disregard what we actually see and are told. Also this is about DB. If you want to complain about Superman's speed open a thread

But basically what I'm getting from you is that you want to just chalk it up to PIS? It happens far too often to be just that. And you keep bringing up the anime as if it matters here when the original work tells us otherwise

If Buu could even go 1/100th the speed of light he would have been on top of Goku and Vegeta before they were able to get a word out. He was obviously trying to reach them quickly so even if he didn't wanna go his top speed he still should have been able to circle the planet once in less than a second. He couldn't. And if he can't nobody weaker than him can either

Uh, the one from the Spectre WAS a speech bubble. If Superman was going so fast, he should have in no way/shape or form been able to hear that. Either way, it was just a comparison to prove that it happens all the time in fiction. There's no point in arguing about PIS.

When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG

Your entire argument hinges on the claim that Goku traveled any distance in a span of time between Freeza throwing a punch and that punch hitting Vegeta. There is no proof of this claim, nor did you even address it in your latest few posts. Therefore, you have no argument. No one should feel compelled to respond to you anymore.

When you finally graduate high school and have some spare time on your hands I'd recommend taking a course in Logic. It would help you a great deal.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Your entire argument hinges on the claim that Goku traveled any distance in a span of time between Freeza throwing a punch and that punch hitting Vegeta. There is no proof of this claim, nor did you even address it in your latest few posts. Therefore, you have no argument. No one should feel compelled to respond to you anymore.

When you finally graduate high school and have some spare time on your hands I'd recommend taking a course in Logic. It would help you a great deal.

And their counter-argument relies on the basis that Frieza would sit over a barely conscious Vegeta with his fist hovering for an extended period. Usually when someone cocks their fist back, they mean to punch.

Recommend what you may, but the fact of the matter, is that the person here who is suggesting Frieza to sit over Vegeta with his fist cocked back, waiting for someone to come save him, is totally retarded. I'll do that, while you get back to your special ed.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
And their counter-argument relies on the basis that Frieza would sit over a barely conscious Vegeta with his fist hovering for an extended period. Usually when someone cocks their fist back, they mean to punch.

Recommend what you may, but the fact of the matter, is that the person here who is suggesting Frieza to sit over Vegeta with his fist cocked back, waiting for someone to come save him, is totally retarded. I'll do that, while you get back to your special ed. Or he could have pulled it back right as Goku got there, and not right as Goku left.

Judging your posts you might also want to take a class to deal with hurt feelings a bit better as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Or he could have pulled it back right as Goku got there, and not right as Goku left.

Judging your posts you might also want to take a class to deal with hurt feelings a bit better as well.

What about this don't you understand? Cocking your arm back is still part of a strike, dummy. Either way, Goku still got there faster than Freiza could strike.

Yes, and maybe then I could provide you the psychological, as well as mental help that you so desperately need.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by NemeBro
Your entire argument hinges on the claim that Goku traveled any distance in a span of time between Freeza throwing a punch and that punch hitting Vegeta. There is no proof of this claim, nor did you even address it in your latest few posts. Therefore, you have no argument. No one should feel compelled to respond to you anymore.

When you finally graduate high school and have some spare time on your hands I'd recommend taking a course in Logic. It would help you a great deal.

Normally I ignore peoples posts like this, saying not to waste time with such a person, with obligation to continue the debate. But I skimmed through your response and it was so dreadfully awful I can't see the reason to be bothered, nor see the reason as I fail to see a single proven counter or a person agreeing with anything you're saying on this matter. Even Carver.

Have to say the first line was beautiful though. That 99% is untrue where its all backed by scans, statements and even basic logic, all pointing to the same answer.

But what was your argument again? Some english page and believing for no reason a punch was thrown? Have fun with your belief, you're the only one who will believe it

Originally posted by BloodRain
Normally I ignore peoples posts like this, saying not to waste time with such a person, with obligation to continue the debate. But I skimmed through your response and it was so dreadfully awful I can't see the reason to be bothered, nor see the reason as I fail to see a single proven counter or a person agreeing with anything you're saying on this matter. Even Carver.

Have to say the first line was beautiful though. That 99% is untrue where its all backed by scans, statements and even basic logic, all pointing to the same answer.

But what was your argument again? Some english page and believing for no reason a punch was thrown? Have fun with your belief, you're the only one who will believe it

thumbsup

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, the one from the Spectre WAS a speech bubble. If Supeyrman was going so fast, he should have in no way/shape or form been able to hear that. Either way, it was just a comparison to prove that it happens all the time in fiction. There's no point in arguing about PIS.

When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG

There is no proof Superman heard what The Specter said. In fact as he gets up he says he doesn't know what he even ran into. But again that has nothing to do with DB so why bring it up? Again if you want to debate Superman or his comic logic open a thread. This isn't the place

We can't "SEE" what's on the page???? We can only "SEE" what's on tv? Not a very solid stance you have there. We do in fact "SEE" what's shown on panel and everything I've said is shown. You are debating what we don't see and what you hope is the case

When have these characters been shown once to "speak at light speed" or any other speed faster than normal? Also for your case to hold up we would have to pretend the sound of their voices suddenly picked up speed too for it to work. Any proof of this at all or just more baseless speculation?

I posted the page and broke down what we clearly "SEE" and all you've done is give me "maybes" and "could bes" and "ifs" and "we don't knows". You really don't have a stance

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What about this don't you understand? Cocking your arm back is still part of a strike, dummy. Either way, Goku still got there faster than Freiza could strike.

Yes, and maybe then I could provide you the psychological, as well as mental help that you so desperately need. Is the person who can't even read an OP properly really the one who should be insulting people's intelligence?

Speaking of which, that isn't what I said, sorry, given your aforementioned history of poor reading comprehension I should have been more careful in my wording.

It isn't that Goku could have gotten there in the time he cocked his arm back; that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that we only see Freeza's arm cocked back by the time Goku gets there. We don't see at what point Freeza started the "cocked back" motion, we just know that when Goku stopped moving, Freeza's arm was cocked back. He could have cocked it back when Goku was ten feet from reaching his destination, he could have cocked it back when Goku was a hundred feet. We do not know.

Furthermore, given later events we know that even 1% Freeza would have been holding back tremendously for that to be possible. Because even 1% Freeza is faster than than Goku in that relatively non-powered up state.

So for this feat you are claiming is 100% certain to even be possible, Freeza would have to be moving more slowly than his maximum speed cocking the punch back or throwing it for Goku to have made it there in that time frame. So, the question is how much was Freeza holding back. We don't know, it is impossible to determine the exact time.

And that's the problem, isn't it? The feat you are supporting is based on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions like Freeza beginning the process of punching Vegeta before or as Goku left the ship. Or assumptions like Freeza not holding back his speed a considerable amount in the motion, which would pretty much have to be the case. Goku's punches are not as quick as Freeza's, he is certainly not capable of flying a few kilometers (the actual distance) in the time it takes Freeza to throw a punch, much less many thousand.

There is no feat, you have no argument.

Originally posted by juggerman
You're kidding right? Did you even follow the links? He says another strong fighter is here meaning he feels the ki. That's what he was closing in on




Why would Buuhan need to go his top speed to reach a speed Goku could achieve before he even hit SSJ1?

Agreed on the first part.

Exactly, you're catching on. You used that scan as evidence that Buu couldn't reach light speed. Nothing in your scan was shown of him even trying to reach his max speed, let alone half of it. We just see him flying to them boasting, that's it. Now if there was something said during that scene of him moving his max, then you'll have an argument, but nothing was said. Also, if he was going anywhere close to his tops, Vegeta nor Goku would have saw him at all due to the large speed difference between the two. So with that said, your post was irrelevant.

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on the first part.

Exactly, you're catching on. You used that scan as evidence that Buu couldn't reach light speed. Nothing in your scan was shown of him even trying to reach his max speed, let alone half of it. We just see him flying to them boasting, that's it. Now if there was something said during that scene of him moving his max, then you'll have an argument, but nothing was said. Also, if he was going anywhere close to his tops, Vegeta nor Goku would have saw him at all due to the large speed difference between the two. So with that said, your post was irrelevant.


if hes ls even if buu was going at half his power or half the speed of light he would have gotten there before the convo ended

wait hold up i just skimmed a couple posts did someone try to argue that dbz characters talk faster than the speed of light lol or did i read wrong

Originally posted by chasedown
if hes ls even if buu was going at half his power or half the speed of light he would have gotten there before the convo ended

Even if he was going half his speed or a fraction, Black hair Goku and Vegeta should not be able to see him, don't you agree. Remember, Frieza used 1% of his power and was still too fast for Piccolo and the other Z fighters to detect. Now compare the difference in power to the strongest Buu and Black hair Goku and Vegeta and you should see where I'm going with this.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Is the person who can't even read an OP properly really the one who should be insulting people's intelligence?

Speaking of which, that isn't what I said, sorry, given your aforementioned history of poor reading comprehension I should have been more careful in my wording.

It isn't that Goku could have gotten there in the time he cocked his arm back; that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that we only see Freeza's arm cocked back by the time Goku gets there. We don't see at what point Freeza started the "cocked back" motion, we just know that when Goku stopped moving, Freeza's arm was cocked back. He could have cocked it back when Goku was ten feet from reaching his destination, he could have cocked it back when Goku was a hundred feet. We do not know.

Furthermore, given later events we know that even 1% Freeza would have been holding back tremendously for that to be possible. Because even 1% Freeza is faster than than Goku in that relatively non-powered up state.

So for this feat you are claiming is 100% certain to even be possible, Freeza would have to be moving more slowly than his maximum speed cocking the punch back or throwing it for Goku to have made it there in that time frame. So, the question is how much was Freeza holding back. We don't know, it is impossible to determine the exact time.

And that's the problem, isn't it? The feat you are supporting is based on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions like Freeza beginning the process of punching Vegeta before or as Goku left the ship. Or assumptions like Freeza not holding back his speed a considerable amount in the motion, which would pretty much have to be the case. Goku's punches are not as quick as Freeza's, he is certainly not capable of flying a few kilometers (the actual distance) in the time it takes Freeza to throw a punch, much less many thousand.

There is no feat, you have no argument.

Go ahead and dodge the debate all you want by bringing up irrelevant things, it only makes you look dumber.

So your argument is that Frieza COULD have cocked his arm back when Goku was almost there? I wonder who's guessing things here... Basically, that is not even an argument. Goku took off, and Frieza was already over Vegeta. If he had his arm cocked back by the time Goku got there, it means Goku STILL got there before Frieza could grab Vegeta and punch him. That is STILL THE SAME FEAT.



Also, Goku was using kaioken the entire fight, as stated by King Kai. The only one assuming things here is you. The power levels are shown in the daizenshuu, Goku in base without kaioken was 3 million, and Frieza 1%(which it explicitly states is the power he used against Vegeta and friends), is 6 million. Goku appeared with a bright aura, something he typically only has when using a buff, or is at full power. King Kai stated Goku was using Kaioken from the beginning of his fight against Frieza.

Either way, you're missing the entire point of my argument here.

A power level of 6 million could strike in AT LEAST one 3 millionth of a second. Goku, with a power level of around 6 million(in Kaioken X2), probably though about 9 million, completed a trip around a planet 3.5 times larger than Earth. There is no way to argue anything there, the feat happened.

Honestly, I expected you to say something like, "Power levels don't scale linearly that way", which is the BEST argument that you CAN make against this. Because they don't. However, they scale to the point where someone with a power level of a million over someone with a power level of a billion would be equal to a fight between someone with a power level of 5 and of 6. It's just strange, but they still scale OVER what they're measured as, making my calcs a LOWBALL.

Originally posted by juggerman
There is no proof Superman heard what The Specter said. In fact as he gets up he says he doesn't know what he even ran into. But again that has nothing to do with DB so why bring it up? Again if you want to debate Superman or his comic logic open a thread. This isn't the place

We can't "SEE" what's on the page???? We can only "SEE" what's on tv? Not a very solid stance you have there. We do in fact "SEE" what's shown on panel and everything I've said is shown. You are debating what we don't see and what you hope is the case

When have these characters been shown once to "speak at light speed" or any other speed faster than normal? Also for your case to hold up we would have to pretend the sound of their voices suddenly picked up speed too for it to work. Any proof of this at all or just more baseless speculation?

I posted the page and broke down what we clearly "SEE" and all you've done is give me "maybes" and "could bes" and "ifs" and "we don't knows". You really don't have a stance

What? LOL, you literally just FLIPPED your stance on this whole thing. You were the one saying they weren't light speed because of how long it took in the anime.

"When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG"

I repeated my post from earlier, because you seem keen on repeating yourself.

Either way, you're the one saying them talking proves Buu =/= LS, so burden of proof lies on you pal. Either show that they were actually speaking as slow as people do, or accept that it's PIS that happens in EVERY series.

It has nothing to do with the speed they use. Another simple piece of evidence is the fact that Piccolo spoke before Nappa's blast hit him to Gohan. Piccolo could shoot a tiny ki blast that reached the moon in less than a second, and Nappa shot a blast that he barely outran, and he could still talk before it landed.

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on the first part.

Exactly, you're catching on. You used that scan as evidence that Buu couldn't reach light speed. Nothing in your scan was shown of him even trying to reach his max speed, let alone half of it. We just see him flying to them boasting, that's it. Now if there was something said during that scene of him moving his max, then you'll have an argument, but nothing was said. Also, if he was going anywhere close to his tops, Vegeta nor Goku would have saw him at all due to the large speed difference between the two. So with that said, your post was irrelevant.

Ok

Here's the issue tho: Buu was clearly trying to reach them quickly. Maybe not "as fast as he possibly could" but he was still determined to get there quickly. So if a character that had a power billions less than Buu could ho LS easily, then Buu's top speed should be so far beyond LS that traveling at LS wouldn't even be Buu pushing himself past 1%.

Originally posted by carver9
Even if he was going half his speed or a fraction, Black hair Goku and Vegeta should not be able to see him, don't you agree. Remember, Frieza used 1% of his power and was still too fast for Piccolo and the other Z fighters to detect. Now compare the difference in power to the strongest Buu and Black hair Goku and Vegeta and you should see where I'm going with this. Except you and Gogeta think Black haired Goku and Vegeta are light speeders. At least Gogeta does. And if they are then Buu traveling at half that speed would be easily seen by them

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? LOL, you literally just FLIPPED your stance on this whole thing. You were the one saying they weren't light speed because of how long it took in the anime.

"When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG"

I repeated my post from earlier, because you seem keen on repeating yourself.

Either way, you're the one saying them talking proves Buu =/= LS, so burden of proof lies on you pal. Either show that they were actually speaking as slow as people do, or accept that it's PIS that happens in EVERY series.

It has nothing to do with the speed they use. Another simple piece of evidence is the fact that Piccolo spoke before Nappa's blast hit him to Gohan. Piccolo could shoot a tiny ki blast that reached the moon in less than a second, and Nappa shot a blast that he barely outran, and he could still talk before it landed.

I never used the anime as a scale to judge anything here. I broke down page after page of the manga which thoroughly proves my stance. I said "you keep using the anime" and basically what you did was akin to a "no you" response. I said you used it since the only possible way you can have the stance of "Goku travelled the planet of Namek in the timeit took Frieza to throw a punch" it would have to come from the anime since nothing even close happened in the manga. But please quote me anywhere my stance was based on the anime. Cuz I can easily quote the time I said you were using it and I never once did here so please try harder

Your repeated post has been dismantled already but I do see one point I didn't comment on last time. You said it's a cartoon so clearly you are referring to the anime

Actually the burden is on you since you are claiming they can speak at LS when that's never been shown. And a timeframe for Piccolo's blast is needed. But knowing you you'll pull some more nonsense out of your butt to try to cover the fact that you're wrong.

Look you seem willing to admit there was a lot of PIS on DB which is good since we agree there. But there is way more pointing to them not being LS than vice versa. Maybe you can at least admit that too

Much DBZ fans argue that Picollo Ki blast reach the Moon in few seconds, and Raditz was able to dodge his ki blasts. Even tough the Picollo Ki blast was not lightspeed, it was a very good speed feat.

What do you guys think about that ?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/cry-about-it-lol.gif

It's okay there little guy. When you grow up a little Goku being weaker than you think he is won't matter that much.



You, actually. I'm not assuming anything about what Freeza or Goku. I'm pointing out that your argument is founded on assumptions that you can't prove.



Sure, now can you prove exactly when Freeza cocked his arm back?

Because if you can't do that, then you can't quantify the feat.



How does this help your argument?

Goku is faster when using Kaioken, yet he still couldn't blitz Freeza. He also wasn't using Kaioken while racing toward Freeza, which is clear by the complete lack of an aura. So if indeed Freeza did start cocking his arm back as or before Goku left the ship, then he would have had to have been doing it much more slowly than he could.

How much more slowly? Don't know. Which is the entire point; we don't know, so the feat can't be quantified.

Or do you think Goku can fly thousands of kilometers in the time it takes Freeza to throw a punch?



No, I'm afraid not. I understand perfectly. On the other hand, considering your frequently poor reading comprehension, it seems far more likely that you are missing the point of mine (my argument is that your argument sucks, by the way).



Prove that Freeza began cocking back his arm anywhere near the time Goku left the ship.

No, it really didn't. You have the back of the English manga to support your case. That's about it.

The visuals in the manga and the dialogue contradict you multiple times.

Your argument is literally that Goku is fast enough to travel around the planet in the time it takes a demonstrably faster character to throw a punch.

Your argument is literally worse than Hitler.



Your calc isn't a lowball my son. It's just wrong.

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok

Here's the issue tho: Buu was clearly trying to reach them quickly. Maybe not "as fast as he possibly could" but he was still determined to get there quickly. So if a character that had a power billions less than Buu could ho LS easily, then Buu's top speed should be so far beyond LS that traveling at LS wouldn't even be Buu pushing himself past 1%.

Didn't look like he was trying to reach them quickly imo. If that was the case, he would've went his top speed to achieve this. Remember Gotenks was able to circle Earth in seconds several times (and yes, seconds because remember, after circling the globe, they took a nap. That's why the fusion was over with) and they are no where close to Buu speed. If he wanted to catch Goku and Vegeta off guard with raw speed, then he could've done it. Doesn't matter anyways since I think DBZ raw speed sucks (flight). It's always been there reflexes and quick burst of speed that is far more impressive (and what I consider far above light speed).

Example...Wonder Woman has light speed reaction but her flight sucks.

Originally posted by carver9
Didn't look like he was trying to reach them quickly imo. If that was the case, he would've went his top speed to achieve this. Remember Gotenks was able to circle Earth in seconds several times (and yes, seconds because remember, after circling the globe, they took a nap. That's why the fusion was over with) and they are no where close to Buu speed. If he wanted to catch Goku and Vegeta off guard with raw speed, then he could've done it.

Seriously man? Just look at the pages beforehand:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-6/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Here he looks pissed that Goku evaded him.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-7/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Here he says "I won't stop chasing him". Not "I won't stop slowly following him" It's clear he was trying to quickly find him

Then we see him start to chase after Goku but here's where we really see something:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-9/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Look at his ki/aura now. That's clearly indicative of a high speed. Maybe not his highest but it's clear it's meant to be fast for Buu since there is an abundance of ki around and behind him. Everything in that first frame shows us he is moving quickly. The second frame shows us this as well. I can also go back and show you other examples of characters that look similar when they are flying fast too if needed.

Also I never said he was trying to catch them off gaurd, only that he was chasing Goku and trying to reach him quickly. That much is pretty much proven within the pages themselves

Originally posted by carver9
Doesn't matter anyways since I think DBZ raw speed sucks (flight). It's always been there reflexes and quick burst of speed that is far more impressive (and what I consider far above light speed).

Example...Wonder Woman has light speed reaction but her flight sucks.

Well if you don't think they fly and travel at LS then I don't think we have much else to discuss about this. If you would like, please post some evidence that supports your opinion that they can react and/or fight at LS so we can discuss your actual stance.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Much DBZ fans argue that Picollo Ki blast reach the Moon in few seconds, and Raditz was able to dodge his ki blasts. Even tough the Picollo Ki blast was not lightspeed, it was a very good speed feat.

What do you guys think about that ?

I think that it's a high end outliner feat that can be summed up as PIS. The issue is tho people will take that PIS and act as if it is the norm and use it as a measuring stick. I.E. "since Piccolo can fire a blast at light speed than Frieza is over 100X light speed" and so on and so forth. But it doesn't make sense with all the points that show us these guys move much much slower than that. You basically have to put on blinders to everything else to see it that way.

Plus seeing as how their universe is nothing like ours at all, we can't just assume their moon is as far away as ours either but that's a whole different thing to discuss.

Also Roshi blew up the moon and it was never wished back iirc. Meaning Piccolo killed an imposter moon. Maybe the Death Star!!!

Originally posted by juggerman
Seriously man? Just look at the pages beforehand:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-6/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Here he looks pissed that Goku evaded him.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-7/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Here he says "I won't stop chasing him". Not "I won't stop slowly following him" It's clear he was trying to quickly find him

Then we see him start to chase after Goku but here's where we really see something:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-9/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Look at his ki/aura now. That's clearly indicative of a high speed. Maybe not his highest but it's clear it's meant to be fast for Buu since there is an abundance of ki around and behind him. Everything in that first frame shows us he is moving quickly. The second frame shows us this as well. I can also go back and show you other examples of characters that look similar when they are flying fast too if needed.

Also I never said he was trying to catch them off gaurd, only that he was chasing Goku and trying to reach him quickly. That much is pretty much proven within the pages themselves



Well if you don't think they fly and travel at LS then I don't think we have much else to discuss about this. If you would like, please post some evidence that supports your opinion that they can react and/or fight at LS so we can discuss your actual stance.

Can black hair Vegeta and Black hair Goku detect Buu if he used 1% of his speed? Yes or no? We can start from there.

In regards to your reflex comment, well...let's start here. As shown many time during DBZ, the more powerful you are, the faster your attacks are. Here we have Goku trapped in a ball of "light".

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/386623-light_ball_super.jpg

Frieza then kick the ball of light onto the ground in which it explodes.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/386619-goku_escapes_light_1_super.jpg

Goku out races said blast. The ball of light while being in the heart of it. Akira made things obvious. He literally threw things in our face that we tend to ignore. He named certain attacks and attached a speed ft right behind it but yet we ignore it. Example, this was a clear indication of how fast Tien was punching, but yet we ignored it because not only did Akira throw it in our face, but, we ignore how impressive said attack were. Lol...he named this attack LIGHT SPEED FURY PUNCHES.

http://rs1143.pbsrc.com/albums/n638/carver9/250689-ten_lightspeed_punch_1_super.jpg~320x480

Not only did he name it light speed fury punches (lol, thrown right in your face), he drew Tien arms turning into light.

http://rs1143.pbsrc.com/albums/n638/carver9/250690-ten_lightspeed_punch_2_super.jpg~320x480

But wait, just because Akira gave us the obvious and named his attack LIGHT SPEED FURY punches, that doesn't mean the punches are going light speed (wtf).

Anyways, let's move on. Now we are headed to yet another thrown at us speed ft. Let's see what Akira name this attack. An attack that had a highlighted moment.

Here we have one of the most famous scenes in DBZ. Here Raditz dodge Piccolo best attack and not only does Raditz dodge it, he puts emphasis on the ft from Piccolo's own mouth. Piccolo's own words "he must be faster than the..." than the what? Would Piccolo have been impressed if Raditz was faster than the speed of sound? Hell no because Piccolo achieved that during child hood. Let's continue...Raditz not only dodged this attack but let's look at the NAME Akira threw at us yet again...

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/243940-radditz_speed_2_super.jpg

"LIGHT" OF DEATH. A blast of light dodged by Raditz. Hhhhhhmmmm, it's hilarious that every speed ft that is thrown at us have the word LIGHT in it. Every MAJOR speed ft during DBZ. Let's continue with another major speed ft.

http://rs103.pbsrc.com/albums/m156/kinasin/250664-goku_dodges_taiyoken_3_super.jpg~320x480

Here's another famous speed ft, the SOLAR FLARE. Another high lighted showing of speed that is also, yet again, a form of light. Goku not only grabs Roshi shades, but he does it so fast that the light from Tien body doesn't even touch him. This is an ongoing process. Akira spells it out for us...gives us the obvious that everyone tends to ignore. The fts are there, people are hypocritical about it. I can post more if ya want.

The attacks didn't get slower in DBZ either. It increased dramatically. Will post proof of this soon.

its all convuluded bs based on speculation....... theyve never showcased ftl feats but ppl try to claim they are by creating speculative conclusions based on barely any factual data.

speed=d/t

so in irder to make an ftl claim youd have to find data that shows conclusively that dbz characters are faster than 670,616,629 mph using the factors of distance and time.

like goku flying to the other side of namek in a few seconds. Wasn't namek supposed to be around twenty times the size of earth or something?

BloodRain and I have debunked that already.

sorry. Didn't read the rest of the thread.

Originally posted by chasedown
its all convuluded bs based on speculation....... theyve never showcased ftl feats but ppl try to claim they are by creating speculative conclusions based on barely any factual data.

speed=d/t

so in irder to make an ftl claim youd have to find data that shows conclusively that dbz characters are faster than 670,616,629 mph using the factors of distance and time.

Did you read what Carver posted at all? Tien can punch at light speed, Raditz can dodge it, and Goku can outrun it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
BloodRain and I have debunked that already.

No you didn't.

DB Tien's light speed punch Vs Racoome's Mach Punch..

Originally posted by chasedown
its all convuluded bs based on speculation....... theyve never showcased ftl feats but ppl try to claim they are by creating speculative conclusions based on barely any factual data.

speed=d/t

so in irder to make an ftl claim youd have to find data that shows conclusively that dbz characters are faster than 670,616,629 mph using the factors of distance and time.

So if I sent Akira an email and said "Akira, the punches Tien hit Goku with, the hits that you named the light speed fury punches, can you please tell me how fast Tien was punching". What do you think Akira will say (if I was in front of him, he would probably give me the idiot look)?

Originally posted by BloodRain
DB Tien's light speed punch Vs Racoome's Mach Punch..

What mach punch?

Come on carver, if you want support DBZ speed at least use good examples, like the one i posted. So far the only explanation i read against it is "it is PIS".

The feats you posted dont count as proof for lightspeed.

Originally posted by carver9
What mach punch?
The Mach Punch/Attack he uses against Goku.


Btw do you have the Japanese characters for Tien's attack?

Originally posted by carver9
So if I sent Akira an email and said "Akira, the punches Tien hit Goku with, the hits that you named the light speed fury punches, can you please tell me how fast Tien was punching". What do you think Akira will say (if I was in front of him, he would probably give me the idiot look)?


you can call your car the ls car doesnt mean its lightspeed its just what youve named the car

in dbz's case it was called the lightspeed punch

Originally posted by chasedown
you can call your car the ls car doesnt mean its lightspeed its just what youve named the car

in dbz's case it was called the lightspeed punch

So Akira named it light speed punches because it sound cute? Does anyone have his email address? Anyone. If so, please give it to me.

Originally posted by carver9
So Akira named it light speed punches because it sound cute? Does anyone have his email address? Anyone. If so, please give it to me.


ok so does that mean when goku fires kamehameha that hes literally firing off a wave of turtles?

Originally posted by chasedown
ok so does that mean when goku fires kamehameha that hes literally firing off a wave of turtles?

Yes.

Big Bang Attack creates a universe.

Originally posted by chasedown
ok so does that mean when goku fires kamehameha that hes literally firing off a wave of turtles?

What's the difference between a move called "light speed punches" where we clearly see Tien arms turning into light versus kamehameha wave? Again, does anyone have Akira email address?

Once Final Flash is used it can never be used again.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/35b27054208b11fd47cc6707c8a58974/tumblr_mtcadvQpDz1qa8q3yo1_500.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
What's the difference between a move called "light speed punches" where we clearly see Tien arms turning into light versus kamehameha wave? Again, does anyone have Akira email address?


where do you see tien's hands turning into light?


so special beam cannon, light and hellzone grenade are actually milatry grade weapons.

Does anyone have Akira email address? If anyone does, it will end this nonsense of a debate.

If anyone did it would have been ended already.

How many posts have you been asking for the email?

37

Originally posted by carver9
Does anyone have Akira email address? If anyone does, it will end this nonsense of a debate.

what could also stop it is you coming up with these ridicolous arguements

Originally posted by carver9
So Akira named it light speed punches because it sound cute? Does anyone have his email address? Anyone. If so, please give it to me.

"Light speed" or "speed of light" in Japanese media are just very common figures of speech for "really fast", you know, kind of like how "lightning speed" and "faster than lightning" are to us

Plus the name of a technique is hardly indicative of it's actual capacity

That and "light speed" and "high speed" appear to have the same pronunciation, with different characters. So if someone could get that, but unlikely as its anime only.

Gotcha. I will ask Akira how fast Tien was punching with the move he named light speed punches. I will also ask him what the 'ball of paralyzing light' was made out of that Frieza used to surround Goku or what Piccolo death of light, what type of energy that was made out of. I'm pretty sure these will be hard questions for him to answer. Lets also not forget about the solar flare...I'm pretty sure that is made out of claydo. Thank you all for the help.

Make sure to ask him if Vegeta's Big Bang Attack creates a universe while you are at it.

Or if Freiza is actually a universe buster :zaru

Originally posted by carver9
Gotcha. I will ask Akira how fast Tien was punching with the move he named light speed punches. I will also ask him what the 'ball of paralyzing light' was made out of that Frieza used to surround Goku or what Piccolo death of light, what type of energy that was made out of. I'm pretty sure these will be hard questions for him to answer. Lets also not forget about the solar flare...I'm pretty sure that is made out of claydo. Thank you all for the help.


so every name toriyama has given for an attack it meant in the literal sense

So is the Light Speed Fury Punch not native to the manga?

Looking it up on the wiki yields no results that I can see.

speed is the distance traveled over time right? How much distance did goku and frieza cover in about five minutes?

Originally posted by NemeBro
So is the Light Speed Fury Punch not native to the manga?

Looking it up on the wiki yields no results that I can see.
Correct. It is anime only. Which is why it will be difficult, maybe impossible, to get the right name seeing as "Rekka kousoku-ken" can either mean;

Kōsoku - 光速 - Light Speed

or

Kōsoku - 高速 - High Speed

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
speed is the distance traveled over time right? How much distance did goku and frieza cover in about five minutes?
Not much at all. From taking the dragonballs and summoning the dragon to Goku's victory, they only traveled around 8 islands away from Frieza's ship only to end up flying back to 4 islands away. And seeing how each island is only 100 or so meters long with an island sized ocean gap between, we're not talking much of a distance throughout the entire event, much less the T-minus 5mins.

If it's anime only then who the ****s cares?

Toriyama didn't write it so carver getting Tori's opinion on it means nothing.

..Point taken. Can we put the name business under the rug now?

Originally posted by BloodRain
..Point taken. Can we put the name business under the rug now?


sure unless anyone thinks goku shoots actual waves of turtles. 😂😂😂

btw these guys also think naruto characters are ftl as well (facepalm)

The right answer here is Goku wins.

Originally posted by chasedown
btw these guys also think naruto characters are ftl as well (facepalm)

Who are you referring to? I don't think anyone here thinks that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Who are you referring to? I don't think anyone here thinks that.


gogeta has credited madara, regular bijuu mode naruto and raikage with being faster than light. maybe not in this thread but hes the main one i remember stating it in other threads. that and he thinks naruto knows hiraishin on top of being ftl smh (facepalm)

Originally posted by chasedown
gogeta has credited madara, regular bijuu mode naruto and raikage with being faster than light. maybe not in this thread but hes the main one i remember stating it in other threads. that and he thinks naruto knows hiraishin on top of being ftl smh (facepalm)

1. Raikage has Light speed reflexes. Outright stated. And it isn't hyperbole, because Cee didn't say it to anyone.

http://i12.mangapanda.com/naruto/462/naruto-744920.jpg

2. Naruto DOES know Hiraishin.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/505/naruto-1459126.jpg

"TELEPORT TECHNIQUE, and a right handed smash, but all I saw... was a yellow flash!".

What, do you think Naruto invented his own teleport technique? No, he inherited it from Minato. That is all. Also proven in the 700th chapter when Bolt says, "Hiraishin? No fair!", when Naruto teleports and snatches him off the Hokage monument.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Raikage has Light speed reflexes. Outright stated. And it isn't hyperbole, because Cee didn't say it to anyone. You don't need to say it to someone for it to be hyperbole.

Shunshin, not Hiraishin.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Who are you referring to? I don't think anyone here thinks that.

You'd be surprised.

if naruto knew hiraishin he wouldnt have needed to be saved multiple times and always ask someone who knew the technique for help.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You don't need to say it to someone for it to be hyperbole.

Yes, but Shee giving an analysis to a battle in his head, and exaggerating to do so doesn't make any sense.

He didn't say that Raikage was "as fast as light", he said that, "his synapses fire as fast as a flash of light", which is too descriptive to claim as hyperbole.

You wouldn't think something like that to yourself, meaning that your "hyperbole" argument is completely moot. Stop trying to be right by ignoring the scans, and just accept it already.

Originally posted by chasedown
if naruto knew hiraishin he wouldnt have needed to be saved multiple times and always ask someone who knew the technique for help.

Are you thick?

Naruto has never needed someone to warp him unless he was trying to save someone, or wasn't in Biju mode. That only means he can't warp other people. This makes sense, as he doesn't use the seal, like Minato.

He can still use it himself when he needs to.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Shunshin, not Hiraishin.

What do you think a "shunshin" is?

A TELEPORTATION jutsu.

Hiraishin is an advanced Shunshin technique, that boarders on the line of space-time ninjutsu, such as Kamui. This is only because of how fast it warps the user, which is credited with being the speed of light.

Except Shunshin isn't actual teleportation, it's more like Bleach's flash-step.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Are you thick?

Naruto has never needed someone to warp him unless he was trying to save someone, or wasn't in Biju mode. That only means he can't warp other people. This makes sense, as he doesn't use the seal, like Minato.

He can still use it himself when he needs to.


so naruto didnt need any help when juubito grabbed both him and sasuke or when nagato was about to rip both him and bee's souls out of thier bodies


btw shunshin no jutsu isnt teleportation hiraishin is shunshin is just fast movement... kind of like bleachs flash step except in bleach they cover miles with the flash step

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-11/naruto/chapter-357.html

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-11/naruto/chapter-357.html

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-12/naruto/chapter-357.html
h http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-13/naruto/chapter-357.html


shunshin no jutsu isnt teleportation its just fast movement in essence a less advanced flash step because flash steps cover a geat deal more distance

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except Shunshin isn't actual teleportation, it's more like Bleach's flash-step.

Exactly, which is why Hiraishin boarders on the space-time ninjutsu class. Because Hiraishin is the fastest shunshin there is, as it lets the user move for a brief moment, at the speed of light. Flash step does not.

Originally posted by chasedown
so naruto didnt need any help when juubito grabbed both him and sasuke or when nagato was about to rip both him and bee's souls out of thier bodies


btw shunshin no jutsu isnt teleportation hiraishin is shunshin is just fast movement... kind of like bleachs flash step except in bleach they cover miles with the flash step

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-11/naruto/chapter-357.html

Um, what?

1. That never happened, unless you're talking about with Jyuubito, in which case I already explained that Sasuke still would have died.

2. Naruto's soul was already being ripped out. If he warped away, his soul would have come out completely and Nagato would have killed him.

3. Hiraishin IS a shunshin jutsu. It's been stated many times. However, it's so fast, that it boarders on the space-time ninjutsu classification, because it lets the user fling themselves to a seal at the speed of light. Naruto is just able to use it without the seal, which also makes it use more chakra and shortens the range greatly. Flash step is SOLELY putting a bunch of reiatsu into a single step to propel yourself forward at high speed. Only captains and higher can use it to cross A MILE(not multiple miles), and even then still can't move fast enough to dodge something like an earth bound explosion. Meaning even Aizen's flash step wasn't above mach 30.

Originally posted by chasedown
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-11/naruto/chapter-357.html

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-12/naruto/chapter-357.html
h http://www.mangapanda.com/93-362-13/naruto/chapter-357.html


shunshin no jutsu isnt teleportation its just fast movement in essence a less advanced flash step because flash steps cover a geat deal more distance

What are you trying to say here? Hiraishin IS a shunshin. It's been stated DOZENS OF TIMES.

http://i17.mangapanda.com/naruto/631/naruto-4167275.jpg

Hiraishin is simply so fast that it boarders on the line of space-time ninjutsu.

Now, since you're clearly trying to wank Bleach here, and somehow make it seem stronger than Naruto, I'll simply point out this.

THE HOKAGE'S JUST USED SHUNSHIN'S TO TRAVEL ACROSS A CONTINENT TO REACH THE NINJA WAR BATTLEFIELD.

Not to mention that the Hokage's are all pretty close to Minato in terms of Shunshin speed, meaning they're all pretty close to light speed.

Bleach characters peak at lightning speed, and that's current top tiers of the Quincy.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What are you trying to say here? Hiraishin IS a shunshin. It's been stated DOZENS OF TIMES.

http://i17.mangapanda.com/naruto/631/naruto-4167275.jpg

Hiraishin is simply so fast that it boarders on the line of space-time ninjutsu.

Now, since you're clearly trying to wank Bleach here, and somehow make it seem stronger than Naruto, I'll simply point out this.

THE HOKAGE'S JUST USED SHUNSHIN'S TO TRAVEL ACROSS A CONTINENT TO REACH THE NINJA WAR BATTLEFIELD.

Not to mention that the Hokage's are all pretty close to Minato in terms of Shunshin speed, meaning they're all pretty close to light speed.

Bleach characters peak at lightning speed, and that's current top tiers of the Quincy.

whose trying to wank bleach i was just stating fact bleach characters have been shown to travel more ground faster than most naruto characters ever since the soul society and up


where did you get that translation the second states hiraishin in this panel in all the other manga translations i read.

also it took the kage a few chapters to get to the battle by the way

shunshin can be used by anybody


hiraishin is teleportation shunshin is not its just fast movement from point a to b the two are different that is all.

hiraishin is space time teleportation. shunshin is running from point a to b

Originally posted by chasedown
whose trying to wank bleach i was just stating fact bleach characters have been shown to travel more ground faster than most naruto characters ever since the soul society and up


where did you get that translation the second states hiraishin in this panel in all the other manga translations i read.

also it took the kage a few chapters to get to the battle by the way

shunshin can be used by anybody


hiraishin is teleportation shunshin is not its just fast movement from point a to b the two are different that is all.

hiraishin is space time teleportation. shunshin is running from point a to b

That's not a fact though. As I clearly just proved.

No he doesn't. I got this chapter from manga panda. The most versatile translator there is. He said shunshin. That is all. The second Hokage has Hiraishin, but it's not even close to Minato's. Not to mention that the other Kage did the same thing. Are you saying that the third Hokage also has Hiraishin?

Yes, shunshin can be used by anybody. What don't you get about this? The only difference between regular shunshin, and Hiraishin, is that Hiraishin is ridiculously faster. It is light speed, and regular shunshin speed depends on how strong/fast the user is.

Hiraishin is NOT a space-time ninjutsu. Look it up. It is specifically a special, advanced shunshin made by the second Hokage, and perfected by the fourth, that lets the user move at light speed for a brief instant. It boarders on space-time ninjutsu, only because it is so fast that it might as well be instant since no ninja in Naruto is faster than it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That's not a fact though. As I clearly just proved.

No he doesn't. I got this chapter from manga panda. The most versatile translator there is. He said shunshin. That is all. The second Hokage has Hiraishin, but it's not even close to Minato's. Not to mention that the other Kage did the same thing. Are you saying that the third Hokage also has Hiraishin?

Yes, shunshin can be used by anybody. What don't you get about this? The only difference between regular shunshin, and Hiraishin, is that Hiraishin is ridiculously faster. It is light speed, and regular shunshin speed depends on how strong/fast the user is.

Hiraishin is NOT a space-time ninjutsu. Look it up. It is specifically a special, advanced shunshin made by the second Hokage, and perfected by the fourth, that lets the user move at light speed for a brief instant. It boarders on space-time ninjutsu, only because it is so fast that it might as well be instant since no ninja in Naruto is faster than it.


so now hiraishin isnt teleportation? (facepalm) youve got to be deluded. and i never said anything about the third or 1st

i dont have to look anything up i just showed you sasuke doing the technique all in one panel. it is just fast movement.

the kage used shunshin to get to the battlefield( although idk why because minato and the second's hiraishin wouldve got them there faster) if they wouldve used hiraishin instead of shunshin it wouldnt have taken them however many chapters it took for them to get there.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_God_Technique


http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Body_Flicker_Technique

theres a big difference between the two since one is high speedmovement and the other is teleportation

Naruto?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Naruto?



yea my b the subject got changed because gogeta seems to think naruto madara and the raikage are ls as well as dbz characters lol smh


.... but back to dbz are there any absolute quantifiable feats that lead to a conclusive decision that dbz characters are ls? no speculation plz

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3023-8/dragon-ball/chapter-374.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3023-9/dragon-ball/chapter-374.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3023-10/dragon-ball/chapter-374.html

In the bottom right panel of link one, Goku is within Cell's line of sight. Goku teleported a relatively short distance but the speed of it caught Cell's attention. If they are casually LS then he wouldn't make any comments about reaching that short distance so fast.

Originally posted by Based
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3023-8/dragon-ball/chapter-374.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3023-9/dragon-ball/chapter-374.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3023-10/dragon-ball/chapter-374.html

In the bottom right panel of link one, Goku is within Cell's line of sight. Goku teleported a relatively short distance but the speed of it caught Cell's attention. If they are casually LS then he wouldn't make any comments about reaching that short distance so fast.

another instance as to why they arent ls

Noone in DBZ is light speed.............