Darth Vader vs Darth Maul [The Debate Center]

Emperordmb

Both Maul and Vader are very talented offensive duelists, but as far as defense goes, I think Vader has both the superior technique, and the superior ability to tank blows and injury. As far as the force is concerned, Vader's telekinetic prowess impresses me more than Maul's.

I think Vader would win this fight.

And here's my analysises of both of their fighting styles from my Interesting Fighting Styles thread if anyone is interested:
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well now... time to do one for Darth Vader. Darth Vader's primary form, even before gaining the suit, was Djem So, which he had taken to the level of mastery. After sustaining the injuries on mustafar and donning his trademark suit his fighting style changed dramatically. He initially began to fight with a brutish method, employing a clumsy application of Djem So that incorporated elements of Ataru and Soresu, but was really no more than a brutish onslaught.

Eventually Vader learned to fight with his armor, completely retooling his fighting style to fit his strengths and weaknesses, and incorporating elements from the other six forms around the core of his fighting style, Djem So. Djem So works perfectly as the core of Vader's fighting technique. Its strength oriented offense allows him to use his cybernetically augmented strength as well as the weight of his armor for devastating power blows, it's grounded nature suits Vader's relative lack of mobility in combat, the emphasis on footwork is supported by Vader's bulky weight providing him with a stable center of balance, and it's emphasis on parrying and immediate counter response suiting Vader's need to both defend the weaknesses of his armor and press all of his advantages to bear against his enemies.

Djem So's dueling centric focus also serves as a good basis to incorporate elements of other forms into. The first forms Vader borrowed elements from were Soresu and Ataru. Vader's usage of Soresu was known to involve keeping his elbows to his chest and using his wrists for the precision necessary to ward off blows targeting his face and chest, the most vulnerable parts of his suit, ensuring that if a blow did hit, it could likely be tanked by the rest of his armor. His application of Ataru into his fighting style was likely at first a feeble attempt to regain some of his old agility, and after learning to fight with his armor he actually somewhat succeeds in this goal. He doesn't regain an extraordinary level of agility, but he does gain enough agility to be competent in this regard. Like Qui-gon and ANH Obi-wan, he appears to utilize a more grounded version of Ataru that focuses more around elaborate movement rather than elaborate acrobatics.

The next styles Vader was known to incorporate into his fighting technique were Makashi and Juyo. Makashi's place in Vader's technique led to more control over his technique, which in turn was instrumental in the transformation from a clumsy brutish method to a more advanced and precise method. The elegance and precision granted to him by Makashi was a nice compliment to his brute force. This allowed him to strike with great strength, but at the same time, precisely hit his target, which ranges anywhere from off-balancing or disarming someone with a single stroke to cleaving them in half. Juyo was also a significant boon in overcoming his weaknesses. The passion that Juyo draws from would allow Vader to draw from the dark side to overcome some of his physical limitations. Juyo also provided the, at first slow and clumsy Vader, with a fast paced unpredictable offensive.

With Djem So as the core of Vader's technique and Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, and Juyo being supplementary fighting techniques, Shii Cho and Niman are what holds it all together. Shi Cho was instrumental in the retooling of Vader's style as he basically had to work from the ground up. The simplicity of Shii Cho allowed Vader to use it as a basis for more advanced techniques later on, effectively building off of it to incorporate other styles into his technique. Niman on the other hand was what allowed Vader to hold the elements of all of these styles together as well as allowing him to easily transition between the forms in his fighting style.

What makes Vader different from other wielders of all Seven forms is that rather than mastering them all individually, he primarily focused on one style and supplemented his skill in that style with elements from other styles, effectively building around the form he has mastered, with elements from the other forms, and the way he does this works perfectly to cover up his weaknesses and take full advantage of his strengths. For these reasons, I judge Darth Vader's fighting style to be unique, resourceful, and effective.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Darth Maul is also a quite interesting fighter as he focuses primarily on lightsaber technique over force abilities and dun moch...

The primary component of Darth Maul's lightsaber technique is Juyo, which is what provides Maul with his offensive technique as a duelist. Juyo is known for its unpredictability, which plays off of the unfamiliar nature of Maul's double bladed lightsaber quite nicely. Juyo is also known for it's fast paced and aggressive offensive, which also plays well off of Maul's double bladed lightsaber given that he can strike with two blades more frequently than he could with one. Maul however was not dependent on his double bladed lightsaber and could still function with a single blade. When applying Juyo with a single bladed lightsaber Maul compensated for his double bladed lightsaber's greater striking speed and his opponents' unfamiliarity with it, with the greater maneuverability provided by a single bladed lightsaber.

Maul supplements his offensive dueling capabilities with the aggressive martial art known as Teras Kasi. Teras Kasi is perhaps the most effective martial art for a Sith to compliment their dueling skills with considering that it was developed and geared for fighting Jedi, exactly the kind of opponent a Sith Lord like Maul would face in a lightsaber duel. Maul's mastery of Teras Kasi is to the extent that his master considers his body as lethal as his lightsaber blade, and it is very prevalent in his fighting style. Given how busy Maul's hands are in combat he more frequently utilizes kicks in combat to the extent where he's thrown at least 6-7 kicks in half of his on-screen fights, once to the extent where it was actually lethal to a Jedi, and another time actually managing to land a blow on Sidious. Maul's intense and brutal physical training at the hands of Sidious was instrumental in specializing his body for such attacks, though after losing his legs, the new cybernetic legs he receives makes his frequent habit of throwing kicks in a lightsaber duel all the more effective.

With Maul's mastery of Juyo and Teras Kasi he is a very offensive fighter, and as such he'd be considerably less comfortable on the defensive. Nevertheless Maul does maintain a capable defense in his dueling repertoire. It is likely that much of Maul's defensive technique is derived from his skill in Niman. Niman's balanced jack-of-all-trades nature provides Maul with no weaknesses for his opponents to exploit against him. Niman as a jack-of-all-trades style also provided Maul with some insight into the other forms, allowing him to more capably respond to them in combat. His defensive technique was also well served by his double bladed lightsaber, given the defensive coverage provided by two blades. Unlike his offensive technique, I do not believe he ever truly compensated for the loss of his double bladed weapon in this regard. Given how undeveloped his defensive technique was in comparison to his offensive technique, Maul would also utilize aggressive moves and maneuvers derived from Juyo and Teras Kasi in his defensive technique to keep his opponents at a safe distance while also keeping his opponents from closing in by creating distance with the acrobatics of Teras Kasi. As such Maul's defensive technique is mainly comprised of not presenting a weakness, while maintaining a reasonable distance with aggressive techniques and acrobatics.

Then we get to Maul's mastery of Jar'kai which impacts his fighting style in a few different ways, pretty much all of which are related to armament. First of all, he likely got to Jar'kai through the stepping stone of Niman, which he then used to attain mastery of the double bladed lightsaber. The second and more obvious impact is his skill in dual wielding. When wielding two lightsabers, he further increases his effectiveness with Juyo, as it provides him with the striking speed of two blades without the movement hindrance of the double bladed lightsaber, also increasing his options in combat, and thus his unpredictability as well.

Darth Maul was essentially Sidious's weapon and his skillset reflects that. He is specialized for offense, maintaining combat expertise in several weapons through Jar'kai, a fast paced offensive through Juyo, knowledge of other forms through Niman, skill in hand to hand combat through Teras Kasi, and a defense that utilized minimization of weakness and aggressive techniques to keep his opponents at a distance to compensate for his relative lack of defensive techniques. Maul was brutal and aggressive, but as a result of his vast array of techniques he was also versatile and thus unpredictable, a two edged sword if you will (full pun intended). For these reasons I judge Darth Maul's fighting style to be unique, resourceful, and effective.

Marco1907

Originally posted by NewGuy01

ANH and RotJ Vader are the same in many ways--The only major difference is the improvement of his lightsaber skills. It's a fact that Vader reached the height of his power in RotJ, though.

Well, I would accept lightsaber skill improvement. But I don't believe he has grown more powerful in the force, because he was already powerful in Purge, nor his speed, his best speed feats happened in the novels and comic books at the Purge era. Durability and strength is already stabile for him due to his cybernetic limbs. He can't make it better or lesser. Only difference would be skill, and that makes sense.

Originally posted by Dionysus
I'm thinking Maul could possibly edge Vader out in sabers on a good day but Vader would molest Maul with the Force. So Vader wins, imo.

Nah, Maul is not helpless at TK, he even force pushed Palpatine, which is better than anything Vader did.

Even if we ignore that feat, Maul has enough TK feats to suggests that he can protect his force shield, which means this is a lightsaber duel only.

ILS

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Both Maul and Vader are very talented offensive duelists, but as far as defense goes, I think Vader has both the superior technique, and the superior ability to tank blows and injury. As far as the force is concerned, Vader's telekinetic prowess impresses me more than Maul's. Maul's defensive technique/strategy is pretty solid IMO, at least on par with Vader's, in that he backs off of his attacker until he can get them to a location where they are least likely to pose a threat, like he did when fighting Jinn/Vader. And he makes use of acrobatics more than blocking to avoid blows, which is an equally viable defensive technique in my mind, perhaps more so since the opponent is using up more energy by missing.

You also forgot to mention a few things which are fairly important on Maul's end IMO, such as his tactical skill, martial advantage, and that his agility should be problematic for Vader.

Other than that I pretty much agree, Vader wins.

The_Tempest

Vader, with difficulty.

Maul's probably the superior swordsman: a confirmed high-end master of multiple forms whereas Vader 'only' borrows elements of all seven {which is still pretty impressive, but probably doesn't require strict mastery}.

As a Force adept, Vader has the advantage with respect to feats and accolades and so I'm inclined to give him the advantage in at least 6 rounds out of 10.

NewGuy01

Since when does mastery of forms equate to feats and accolades when it comes to the high tiers? Surely you don't think Drallig or Sora more skilled than Obi-Wan.

DarthAnt66

Sasukedc, come to The Outcasts.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Both Maul and Vader are very talented offensive duelists, but as far as defense goes, I think Vader has both the superior technique,

Nah Maul's defensive technique is exceptional. Not only does he adequately defend against 2 Ataru experts in TPM, but TCW Maul often fights defensively and to a very high degree. He displayed this when he easily parried off Opress' s tremendously strong blows 1 handed with casual ease.

Like Tempest pointed out Maul's a High end Master of multiple forms. So going by the few times he's fought defensively in TCW (even against Pre-Vizsla) my guess would be 1 of those forms he's completely mastered is either Makashi or Soresu. Given he tends to defend 1 handed, my guess would be Makashi. Plus given that Sith train to duel Jedi, Makashi seems to fit best.

Marco1907

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Maul's defensive technique is exceptional.

thumb up

The Merchant

Vader-sama takes this. His TK is too much and he mastered all 7 forms and made a unique Saber form from it.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Burn Baby
That's some really weak reasoning, bro.

Maul will be the more "skilled" duelist. In the EU at least he's been praised several times as having Unparalleled Saber and Close Combat skills. He had no where to improve in that department from the sounds of it.

He's also faster, more acrobatic and more mobile than Vader.

But Vader is much stronger and with masterful and exceptional Sabers skill himself.

Overall though I'll also give Maul the decisive edge in Sabers.

It's Vader's Tk that's the problem. Maul has been growing more and more powerful in the Force since his return, but I think he needs to grow stronger still to deal with Vader.

Which I'm guessing he will be post SOD, given what happened his Rage will make him even more powerful. And I personally think SOD Maul would have been even more powerful than TCW Maul, after he saw Sidious murder Opress. It's his ever increasing rage that's kept his power growing.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Marco1907
How powerful do you think ESB Luke is ? Vader had hard time to bring him down completely, iirc, Luke even hit him once on his shoulder.

Then, he loses to Luke in RotJ, this means Luke is incredibly powerful or Vader grown very minimal. My choice is second. Because Luke was inexperienced and I don't believe he is better duelist than the likes of RotS Obi-Wan at that time being.

And there is another problem, his speed. Vader had never been fast, the reason Luke bested him in RotJ should be speed difference, because I don't believe that Luke is more skilled or stronger than Vader by RotJ.

By Lucas's explanation and starwars. com, RotJ Vader shouldn't be fast as prime Jedi and Sith, that is why Luke was able to defeat him imho. Luke may have been inexperienced, but he was incredibly skilled and according to official sources his lightsaber skill was equal to that of Vader:Even in their ESB duel, Luke Skywalker is extremely talented:Vader isn't at all lacking in speed either:

Vader defeats a Jedi Knight effortlessly and before she can even land a blow:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4116989-3101636091-39190.jpg

Fast enough to contend with the cloned, and more powerful, Starkiller:Blitzes Ferus Olin:Finally his speed is compared with that of Yoda:I think its a misconception that Vader is slow, sure the weight of his armor acts a a detriment to his speed but through sheer power he overcomes that. That said Luke is probably faster, although he mainly beat him through raw strength. In fact the duel is inconclusive considering Luke only won through rage mode.

That said I would agree that Maul is faster, but not by a great deal, and not enough to give him an advantage considering Vader's incredible defense capabilities.Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader, with difficulty.

Maul's probably the superior swordsman: a confirmed high-end master of multiple forms whereas Vader 'only' borrows elements of all seven {which is still pretty impressive, but probably doesn't require strict mastery}.

As a Force adept, Vader has the advantage with respect to feats and accolades and so I'm inclined to give him the advantage in at least 6 rounds out of 10. Simply having mastered a greater number of forms does not make one a superior duelist, after all Cin Drallig mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, yet he is surpassed by Dooku, who has only mastered one. Who in turn is put on level with swordsmasters like Yoda and Windu.

Both Maul and Vader are absolute masters of their respective forms i.e. Form V and Form VII. But I think Vader has taken his chosen form further, as Anakin, Dooku believed him to be the finest Djem So duelist he had ever seen, and that's before the improvements he made as Vader, where he transformed Djem So into a near-perfect and totally unique hybrid style. We are talking Exar Kun levels of ingenuity here, in the respect that he basically made a new form. Maul however is just pure Juyo, and didn't do anything to build on it. The fact that he mastered other forms is irrelevant considering he didn't incorporate them into his style to the level that Vader did.

Pure Juyo Master vs Djem So Hybrid Master = win for Vader IMO.

Overall I agree with the general consensus that Vader will win, he is both a superior duelist and Force User, the only advantage Maul has is speed/agility. But Vader isn't slow himself, and his defense capabilities mean he requires minimal effort to block rapid assaults, all he needs to do is pivot.

ILS

People are putting far too much stock into what lightsaber Forms Maul and Vader use opposed to their dueling feats/accolades.

ILS

And Maul evidently doesn't just use Juyo. Ataru is a large part of his fighting style, along with Teras Kasi and Niman.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Beniboybling

That said I would agree that Maul is faster, but not by a great deal, and not enough to give him an advantage considering Vader's incredible defense capabilities.

Overall I agree with the general consensus that Vader will win, he is both a superior duelist and Force User, the only advantage Maul has is speed/agility. But Vader isn't slow himself, and his defense capabilities mean he requires minimal effort to block rapid assaults, all he needs to do is pivot.

1. Vader isn't the superior duelist Imo.

2. Maul has shown the superior defensive technique Imho.

Marco1907

Originally posted by ILS
And Maul evidently doesn't just use Juyo. Ataru is a large part of his fighting style, along with Teras Kasi and Niman.

I never heard Maul is using Ataru. Juyo / Vaapad also has acrobatic maneuvers, I think you are mistaken it for that reason.

As for others, I agree, Niman / Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi are also a large part of his fighting style.

NewGuy01

ILS

Originally posted by Marco1907
I never heard Maul is using Ataru. Juyo / Vaapad also has acrobatic maneuvers, I think you are mistaken it for that reason.

As for others, I agree, Niman / Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi are also a large part of his fighting style. It makes sense for Maul to be a practitioner of Ataru. It would fill in for the third fighting discipline Maul needs to have mastered in order to be a "high-end master of multiple fighting forms". He obviously incorporates extensive acrobatics into his fighting style, and Sidious regards him as an "elegant" fighter, a quality only really present in either Ataru or Makashi.

NewGuy01

Niman, Jar'Kai, Teras Kasi, and Juyo are the main fighting forms he applies in combat. It's probable that there is some degree of Ataru incorporated in his technique, but it's not defined.

ILS

Jar'Kai is only a variant of Niman, though. I don't think it fully qualifies as a form by itself. It's a broad term for any kind of dual blade fighting.

I suppose it doesn't matter too much as long as we agree there is some Ataru in there.

NewGuy01

I think it does. Niman and Ataru are bases on which Jar'Kai can be built upon--being a master of Niman does not mean you can effectively dual-wield.

Jar'Kai is very much it's own style of fighting, but it's based on Niman (or Ataru's) basic maneuvers.

DarthAnt66

SAS COME BACK

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Burn Baby
That's some really weak reasoning, bro.

Not at all.

ILS

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think it does. Niman and Ataru are bases on which Jar'Kai can be built upon--being a master of Niman does not mean you can effectively dual-wield.

Jar'Kai is very much it's own style of fighting, but it's based on Niman (or Ataru's) basic maneuvers. Fair enough, I guess. Seems like he takes elements from Jar'Kai, Niman and Ataru.

carthage

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader, with difficulty.

Maul's probably the superior swordsman: a confirmed high-end master of multiple forms whereas Vader 'only' borrows elements of all seven {which is still pretty impressive, but probably doesn't require strict mastery}.

None of that makes him a better duelist than Vader, you're using the same reasoning Neph and DMB use for Kas'im and Bane.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1. Vader isn't the superior duelist Imo.

2. Maul has shown the superior defensive technique Imho. 1. I don't think there is evidence to support that.

2. I'd say that Maul hasn't done anything Vader would not be capable of or hasn't done himself. But from a purely stylistic point of view, Vader's style is much more suited towards defense whereas Juyo's primary weakness is the fact that it forgoes offense for defense, the saberstaff being Maul's only saving face.

DarthAnt66

Beniboy slaughtering Darth Power and Marco. laughing out loud

Beniboybling

Originally posted by ILS
People are putting far too much stock into what lightsaber Forms Maul and Vader use opposed to their dueling feats/accolades. Well the point is that Vader's style is simply more advanced and refined.

I think that counts for something, the only other contributing factors are speed and strength and overall Vader takes the advantage.

However in terms of feats and accolades, they are more or less equal. Both have bested scores of Jedi as well as highly skilled opponents, and both have been touted as some of the best lightsaber duelists in the history of the Sith Order.

Obi-Wan Kenobi however, can be used as a measuring stick.

According to Death Star in regards to Vader:

He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him.

And yet Kenobi outclassed Maul in their duel on Florrum.

ILS

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader's style is much more suited towards defense whereas Juyo's primary weakness is the fact that it forgoes offense for defense, the saberstaff being Maul's only saving face. Your posts continue to imply that Maul doesn't have a good defence - why do think this? Maul's defence is less obvious than Vader's but I don't see it as any less formidable. Ataru is a purely offensive lightsaber form well suited for taking on a single opponent in saber combat. Maul, to quote, effortlessly, deflected and avoided the assault of two skilled practitioners of Ataru whilst landing numerous counter-blows and manipulating the location of the fight. The Saberstaff aids Maul in defence as well due to it allowing Maul to cover a wider area in a shorter length of time, but it's hardly his only saving grace when it comes to going on the defensive. Maul easily deflected Savage Opress' blows while on the backfoot (albeit he was early on in his training, but a much angrier version of Savage has given top-tier duelists trouble before so he wasn't exactly useless), and has two forms of battle-precognition at his disposal to boot (foresight and telepathy). His clone/resurrected version was easily managing being on the backfoot against ANH Vader for pages on end whilst landing counter-blows regularly, and while this version of Vader isn't as skilled as prime Vader, he's still a physical powerhouse, and accounting for how easily Maul was defending from him, it's enough to suggest he could hold his own against a prime Vader's offence with more applied effort.

Maul's offence is obviously his main form of attack, and his use of Juyo means he will be vulnerable to Force attacks from time to time, but in terms of saber defence he is actually better than most.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beniboy slaughtering Darth Power and Marco. laughing out loud

"I really am the best."

Beniboybling

Originally posted by ILS
Your posts continue to imply that Maul doesn't have a good defence - why do think this? Maul's defence is less obvious than Vader's but I don't see it as any less formidable. Ataru is a purely offensive lightsaber form well suited for taking on a single opponent in saber combat. Maul, to quote, effortlessly, deflected and avoided the assault of two skilled practitioners of Ataru whilst landing numerous counter-blows and manipulating the location of the fight. The Saberstaff aids Maul in defence as well due to it allowing Maul to cover a wider area in a shorter length of time, but it's hardly his only saving grace when it comes to going on the defensive. Maul easily deflected Savage Opress' blows while on the backfoot (albeit he was early on in his training, but a much angrier version of Savage has given top-tier duelists trouble before so he wasn't exactly useless), and has two forms of battle-precognition at his disposal to boot (foresight and telepathy). His clone/resurrected version was easily managing being on the backfoot against ANH Vader for pages on end whilst landing counter-blows regularly, and while this version of Vader isn't as skilled as prime Vader, he's still a physical powerhouse, and accounting for how easily Maul was defending from him, it's enough to suggest he could hold his own against a prime Vader's offence with more applied effort.

Maul's offence is obviously his main form of attack, and his use of Juyo means he will be vulnerable to Force attacks from time to time, but in terms of saber defence he is actually better than most. You misunderstand, I am not saying that Maul's defense is poor, but that Vader's is simply better. In practice this may not appear the case, but neither of them have really being pushed to their limits, in theory however Vader should - with the tools he has at his disposal - come out on top. He just has more defensive resources.

However you make some good points, in the end though I think all this proves it that neither has a large enough advantage to make an impact on the duel.

ILS

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well the point is that Vader's style is simply more advanced and refined. Not necessarily. He adapted to his shortcomings by creating a hybrid form, but I'd say the phrase "if it's not broken, don't fix it" applies here. Maul's technique with a lightsaber should be just as refined as Vader's. The guy would practice tens of thousands of different lightsaber sequences a day pre-TPM when he wasn't on assignments or doing anything else, which serves as a good feat of speed and endurance, as well as an indication of how much dedication he put into mastering his technique. One needs to have a high level of technical skill in order to master the Saberstaff as well as the form Juyo, two things Vader hasn't done.
I see Maul and Vader as equal in combat speed, but with Maul being more agile, something that Vader finds problematic in duels. In terms of strength, Vader has more raw lifting strength and power, but in terms of striking ability Maul is either negligibly close to, or on-par with Vader. Essentially, Vader will win a blade lock, but in terms of their blades clashing neither would really overpower the other.
Going purely by feat, Maul has bested better opposition than Vader. The main way people seem to argue Vader's skill feats is by taking his fight against Maul's clone and then saying "Vader saw a vast improvement after this, so he should be more skilled than Maul by his prime". I find this reasoning shaky at best because of the absence of real evidence. I put them as equals in raw saber skill, but I don't put Vader ahead by any means.
Obi-Wan didn't outclass him. It's explained in Shadow Conspiracy that the reason he got the upper hand on Maul and Savage in the cave was because he adopted a highly aggressive and unorthodox form, which surprised Maul and Savage. Not only would this not work a second time, but it's not exactly indicative of Kenobi being better than Maul. He caught him off-guard once. Great. I could show Maul kicking Obi-Wan around on the turtle tanker, or him dominating Obi-Wan after applying Dun Moch - but the fact is fighters have ups and downs. Whenever it's just been Maul and Obi-Wan, 1v1, no circumstances involved, they've fought equally.

ILS

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You misunderstand, I am not saying that Maul's defense is poor, but that Vader's is simply better. In practice this may not appear the case, but neither of them have really being pushed to their limits, in theory however Vader should - with the tools he has at his disposal - come out on top. He just has more defensive resources.

However you make some good points, in the end though I think all this proves it that neither has a large enough advantage to make an impact on the duel. Fair enough bro, I can agree with that. thumb up

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"I really am the best."
Beating members I dislike more then you (Marco and Power) isn't really an accomplishment.

Zenwolf

Well Swords, Vader has shown the capacity of being able to wield staffs with rather ease. Not a saberstaff, but a Vibrostaff, different mechanics to be sure, but I would say Vader could wield a saberstaff if given the chance.

ILS

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well Swords, Vader has shown the capacity of being able to wield staffs with rather ease. Not a saberstaff, but a Vibrostaff, different mechanics to be sure, but I would say Vader could wield a saberstaff if given the chance. Two differences there. 1) With a vibrostaff the risk of cutting yourself in half is far less, and 2) The dexterity required to wield a lightsaber alone exceeds a vibrostaff, never mind a Saberstaff. I don't question Vader's ability to take up the use of a Saberstaff and master it after a few years training, but the argument was that he hasn't, and even if he did he'd only be as refined as Maul, which was my initial argument.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by ILS
Not necessarily. He adapted to his shortcomings by creating a hybrid form, but I'd say the phrase "if it's not broken, don't fix it" applies here. Maul's technique with a lightsaber should be just as refined as Vader's. The guy would practice tens of thousands of different lightsaber sequences a day pre-TPM when he wasn't on assignments or doing anything else, which serves as a good feat of speed and endurance, as well as an indication of how much dedication he put into mastering his technique. One needs to have a high level of technical skill in order to master the Saberstaff as well as the form Juyo, two things Vader hasn't done.Juyo was not a perfect form and had many weaknesses and shortcomings, many areas which it did not cover, which is why Windu came along and fixed it.

Vader may have devised his form to address his shortcomings, but ultimately what he created was far superior to his original Djem So style, and more importantly far broader and more versatile than Maul's style. For example Vader has all the power and aggression of Djem So, combined with the refined and elegant precision of Makashi.

Not changing the fact that Anakin thoroughly mastered Djem So and has been touted as its greatest practitioner, simply put he has reached Maul's level, then went further.Vader has also undergone just as much rigorous training as Maul has:Originally posted by ILS
I see Maul and Vader as equal in combat speed, but with Maul being more agile, something that Vader finds problematic in duels. In terms of strength, Vader has more raw lifting strength and power, but in terms of striking ability Maul is either negligibly close to, or on-par with Vader. Essentially, Vader will win a blade lock, but in terms of their blades clashing neither would really overpower the other.The only time Vader has struggled against an agile opponent has been well before his prime. And I think the sheer strength in the Force that Vader possesses, that eclipses Maul's, would give him a serious advantage in terms of power. Perhaps not enough to disarm him, but enough to stagger him and create openings.He really hasn't, would you like to provide examples?Fair enough. But the fact remains Vader surpassed him, they were not equals.

Zenwolf

Originally posted by ILS
Two differences there. 1) With a vibrostaff the risk of cutting yourself in half is far less, and 2) The dexterity required to wield a lightsaber alone exceeds a vibrostaff, never mind a Saberstaff. I don't question Vader's ability to take up the use of a Saberstaff and master it after a few years training, but the argument was that he hasn't, and even if he did he'd only be as refined as Maul, which was my initial argument.

Right as I said 'different mechanics' :P

But I see.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beating members I dislike more then you (Marco and Power) isn't really an accomplishment. I didn't think that possible...

DarthAnt66

There's a ton of people I dislike more then you, lol. erm

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well Swords, Vader has shown the capacity of being able to wield staffs with rather ease. Not a saberstaff, but a Vibrostaff, different mechanics to be sure, but I would say Vader could wield a saberstaff if given the chance. He was highly skilled in Niman and Jar'Kai, so he certainly has the foundations. However being able to wield a saberstaff doesn't really make you a better duelist. The same amount of skill can be acquired through other means, and has been by superior duelists.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Burn Baby
No, it is.

No, it's not.

Originally posted by Burn Baby
Maul being a high-end master of multiple forms does not suggest superiority over Vader in lightsaber skill. If it did, Maul would be more skilled than Dooku as well, and so would Mace.

Like Vader, Dooku is implied to be a master of multiple forms as a legendary former lightsaber instructor for the Jedi and his claim to Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil that he could imitate the technique of pretty much the entire Jedi Council. That said, there's nothing suggesting that Mace and Maul aren't superior to Dooku and Maul with respect to technical mastery (i.e. swordsmanship).

Originally posted by Burn Baby
But neither are true.

Now there's some stellar reasoning. thumb up

Zenwolf

The_Tempest

Originally posted by carthage
None of that makes him a better duelist than Vader, you're using the same reasoning Neph and DMB use for Kas'im and Bane.

A high-end master of multiple sword-fighting forms is going to be a superior swordsman next to a guy who's a high-end master of only one. {Though, again, Vader may very well be a master of multiple forms; we just don't have strict confirmation of that fact.} Whether or not Maul would win a duel against Vader is another matter {since there's more involved than just strict skill}, but Maul has more than Vader in his camp with respect to technical mastery.

DarthAnt66

Temp, you should debate Beni. I would have immense satisfaction to see him lose within seconds.

The_Tempest

Cin Drallig may very well be a superior swordsman to Dooku with respect to technical mastery; the fact that Drallig would lose a duel doesn't require him to be an inferior technician or swordsman, it simply could owe to a colossal disparity in the Force.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Like Vader, Dooku is implied to be a master of multiple forms as a legendary former lightsaber instructor for the Jedi and his claim to Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil that he could imitate the technique of pretty much the entire Jedi Council. That said, there's nothing suggesting that Mace and Maul aren't superior to Dooku and Maul with respect to technical mastery (i.e. swordsmanship). Do you have a source/quote for that? Just interested in general.

DarthAnt66

Temp SLAUGHTERHOUSING Beni

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you have a source/quote for that? Just interested in general.

Zenwolf

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cin Drallig may very well be a superior swordsman to Dooku with respect to technical mastery; the fact that Drallig would lose a duel doesn't require him to be an inferior technician or swordsman, it simply could owe to a colossal disparity in the Force.

Well by feats he isn't, only thing Cin has shown is exchanging a few blows with Anakin before dying. Although now thinking on it, there were more than likely some other factors regarding that....but still.

As far as statements/accolades go for Cin....then yeah, he's pretty high up there with being one of the top blademasters in the Jedi Order.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A high-end master of multiple sword-fighting forms is going to be a superior swordsman next to a guy who's a high-end master of only one. {Though, again, Vader may very well be a master of multiple forms; we just don't have strict confirmation of that fact.} Whether or not Maul would win a duel against Vader is another matter {since there's more involved than just strict skill}, but Maul has more than Vader in his camp with respect to technical mastery. Not if the high-end master has mastered his respective form to a higher level than any of the forms his opponent has mastered.

Indeed I really see no evidence that suggests Cin Drallig has attained a level of mastery over any of the seven forms to the level Dooku did over Makashi. Likewise its self evident that Vader's hybrid form was superior to any one of Maul's forms.

DarthAnt66

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cd/d5/00/cdd50023373ab7efae7c71704ee04b4b.jpg

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not if the high-end master has mastered his respective form to a higher level than any of the forms his opponent has mastered.

Indeed I really see no evidence that suggests Cin Drallig has attained a level of mastery over any of the seven forms to the level Dooku did over Makashi.

Which would mean that Drallig isn't as skilled a Makashi practitioner as Dooku and I'd agree with that. But as a general swordsman, yes, someone who has mastered multiple sword-fighting disciplines would logically be more technically skilled than someone who has only mastered one.

ILS

I never said it was, and if Maul used Juyo alone he probably would have some weaknesses and shortcomings. Luckily he has other fighting styles to draw from. Anyway, aside from a lack of focus on defence (which Maul compensates for with his agility and Niman), and a vulnerability to Force attacks, what are these "many" weaknesses and shortcomings you're referencing?

I have to disagree with the notion that Vader's fighting style overall is "far broader and more versatile". Maul's shtick is essentially being highly erratic and unpredictable, as well as being a tactical genius who uses his environment and has strategies to throw away and replace on a whim.

For being erratic, he attacks Komari Vosa in such a way that his blows appear to be coming from everywhere at once, an erratic staccato:
For using his environment to his advantage, there's Maul casually controlling where the duel at Theed took place, which resulted in Kenobi and Jinn being separated and Maul having Qui-Gon in an area ill-suited to practice Ataru (can't remember the source for the part about Ataru, though):

For another example of this, Maul maneuvered Anoon Bondara into a position which would leave him without an avenue of escape:
And for being able to throw strategies away on the fly, he did this in his first duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:
For further consolidation that Vader's fighting style isn't any more versatile than Maul's, let's talk about the fact that Maul has not only mastered numerous martial arts aside from Teras Kasi, but the fact Maul incorporates Teras Kasi into both his unarmed counter-attacks and his lightsaber sequences. Him and Anoon Bondara both somehow incorporated the unarmed martial art into their blade combat.
And while Vader has mastered Djem So to it's Nth degree, and has subsequently drawn from every other Form, Maul's mastery of Niman also allows Maul to dabble in every other Form, which combined with his use of martial arts, dual-wielding, Saberstaff mastery, and of course, Juyo, makes him quite the versatile individual. He has picked up and mastered a large variety of combat techniques, which combined with his tactical mind, makes him at least Vader's equal in terms of versatility.
/rantover
Part 2 to this post coming soon, don't want to exceed the character limit.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Labyrinth of Evil
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"That's interesting, however considering the disdain Dooku held for other forms aside from Makashi, it seems highly unlikely he used his knowledge and mastery over the other forms to improve his primary fighting style, which is pure Makashi.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which would mean that Drallig isn't as skilled a Makashi practitioner as Dooku and I'd agree with that. But as a general swordsman, yes, someone who has mastered multiple sword-fighting disciplines would logically be more technically skilled than someone who has only mastered one. Perhaps you'd like to explain that logic, because I do not see it.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Perhaps you'd like to explain that logic, because I do not see it.

It's pretty straightforward.
You posited that Dooku spent decades refining his command of Makashi and expressed doubt that Drallig would have mastered it to the same degree. I agree with you. Dooku's likely technical knowledge of other forms aside, he's obviously a specialist who elects to hone his skills in one form.

So while Drallig may not be as skilled a Makashi practitioner, his mastery of the other six forms probably makes him a superior sword-fighter in general to the Count.

Just like if you mastered 6 martial arts and I only mastered Taekwondo, I may be the superior Taekwondo practitioner, but you've mastered an additional five separate disciplines next to my one, which would mean your martial arts skills are technically greater by virtue of the wide range of techniques you mastered next to my comparatively limited arsenal.

ILS

Agreed, I don't think there's a difference in their training. Maul has a similar training regime against droids with martial arts programming and varying weapons.
Has it ever been noted that Vader can compensate for more agile opponents? Because I think it'd be somewhat ignorant to dismiss the notion of agility bothering Vader altogether just because he's "in his prime". He still has physical limitations.

Eh, Maul's striking prowess would be enough to match Vader's strength when it comes to clashing blades. Between destroying droids with his kicks, kicking through durasteel armor, punching through a wampa (a feat performed without Force augmentation and before receiving two physical strength increases), kicking into a man's torso, shattering bones with his strikes (even as a teenager), ragdolling an armored creature which stoody 8 foot tall and strangling blood from it's mouth and eyes, and then slamming it with enough force to break it's neck (without Force augmentation) ect are all feats which can match Vader's. These were all performed before Maul's increase in overall Force Augmentation leading into TCW, as well. And Maul's strength feats during TCW aren't lacking either, between slamming Grievous into transparisteel hard enough to crack it, and launching a spear over a ridiculous distance like a missile with enough force to pierce clone armor.

And perhaps Maul's best strength feat, which happened pre-TCW - he ripped the armored skull off of a varactyl in a single jerk. This was done without Force Augmentation, to boot. These things are absolutely enormous (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Varactyl), and when you consider all of the tendons and muscle in addition to their skeleton, ripping one of their heads off is a pretty monumental feat of strength.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141754-rips+off+varactyl+skull.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141755-rips+off+varactyl+skull2.png

Who has Vader bested who is on-par with Qui-Gon Jinn and TPM Kenobi collectively, Anoon Bondara whose skill was considered by many to be literally without equal (who had, self-admittedly, no chance in hell of defeating Maul). Bondara was self-admittedly less skilled than Jinn and Windu, but really, given the reputation he built for himself sufficient to have people believing he really was the best warrior in the Order, it's more a feat for Windu, Jinn and Maul more than anything else, to be so much better than him.

For a TCW feat, contending with Windu and Secura simultaneously should be better than anything Vader has accomplished. Some of the fight happens off-panel but given the speed of Force Users, and the time that was spent showing Dooku killing Tipplee and fighting Obi-Wan, it stands to reason that Maul engaged them for a fair period of time, and he in no way appeared to be losing.

I accept that Vader, as a swordsman, is a rough equal to Maul, because of how much he improved, but I don't know if he has better pure dueling feats.

To be fair, I could make try and make the argument that Maul is more skilled than Obi-Wan.

The Death Star quote is hard to refute, in terms of Vader surpassing Obi-Wan, but I honestly see them as equals in dueling skill going by everything outside of that quote. Maul, Kenobi, Ventress, Vader and Luke, I all put in tier 8, with Windu, Dooku and Anakin being in tier 9. But yeah, if you don't subscribe to my logic then Vader would be better than Obi-Wan.

Nephthys

Tempest's logic is correct to me, but it should be noted that there are exceptions to that rule. Dooku was noted to be dueling prodigy with an exceptional talent for Makashi, so his exemplary skill with it could allow him to stand against or surpass duelists with a mastery of all forms. A single-minded focus on a single form may exceed that of someone who gains skill in all, theoretically. While technically less skilled, devotedly embodying their form could allow one to reach a height that the other cannot.

That said, the versatility of possessing mastery of all forms should be incredible. Such a person could easily combine the defense of Soresu, the poise and precision of Makashi, the power of Djem So, the energy of Ataru and the ferocity of Juyo and emphasise each forms strengths while switching between them to cover their weaknesses. A single style practitioner would still have the weaknesses of their chosen speciality and not have that same versatility.

ILS

Nephthys

Dooku's clearly a lot more powerful than Bulq.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by ILS
I do see the logic in this, but I feel like it has to take a backseat to dueling feats and accolades when we're discussing higher tier duelists. Sora Bulq apparently mastered every lightsaber form but Dooku disarmed him in a single move while Bulq was backed up by Tholme.

Like I've said, there's more to a duel than strict technical prowess. Dooku's not only an extraordinary technician but is also vastly more powerful in the Force than someone like Sora Bulq.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by ILS
I never said it was, and if Maul used Juyo alone he probably would have some weaknesses and shortcomings. Luckily he has other fighting styles to draw from. Anyway, aside from a lack of focus on defence (which Maul compensates for with his agility and Niman), and a vulnerability to Force attacks, what are these "many" weaknesses and shortcomings you're referencing?

I have to disagree with the notion that Vader's fighting style overall is "far broader and more versatile". Maul's shtick is essentially being highly erratic and unpredictable, as well as being a tactical genius who uses his environment and has strategies to throw away and replace on a whim.

For being erratic, he attacks Komari Vosa in such a way that his blows appear to be coming from everywhere at once, an erratic staccato:
For using his environment to his advantage, there's Maul casually controlling where the duel at Theed took place, which resulted in Kenobi and Jinn being separated and Maul having Qui-Gon in an area ill-suited to practice Ataru (can't remember the source for the part about Ataru, though):

For another example of this, Maul maneuvered Anoon Bondara into a position which would leave him without an avenue of escape:
And for being able to throw strategies away on the fly, he did this in his first duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:
For further consolidation that Vader's fighting style isn't any more versatile than Maul's, let's talk about the fact that Maul has not only mastered numerous martial arts aside from Teras Kasi, but the fact Maul incorporates Teras Kasi into both his unarmed counter-attacks and his lightsaber sequences. Him and Anoon Bondara both somehow incorporated the unarmed martial art into their blade combat.
And while Vader has mastered Djem So to it's Nth degree, and has subsequently drawn from every other Form, Maul's mastery of Niman also allows Maul to dabble in every other Form, which combined with his use of martial arts, dual-wielding, Saberstaff mastery, and of course, Juyo, makes him quite the versatile individual. He has picked up and mastered a large variety of combat techniques, which combined with his tactical mind, makes him at least Vader's equal in terms of versatility.
/rantover
Part 2 to this post coming soon, don't want to exceed the character limit. It is a style, like all the styles, that is focused and therefore narrow in what it can achieve, broader than most but it still had shortcomings.There is really little Maul's style has that Vader's doesn't, its precise, powerful, staunch, unpredictable. All it is lacking in is agility and acrobatics, but that is a trait that has both strengths and weaknesses. And Vader is a master of Dun Moch, whereas Maul prefers a purely physical victory, and that ultimately leaves gaps in his knowledge and ability.Vader on the other hand is a tactical genius, and no doubt applies that to combat.

If we are playing examples, I'm sure you recall this masterful use the enviroment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvrAAD8tRw8&t=3m25s

Which he has replicated on many other occasions, in fact I might even go as far to say that Vader's masterful use of Dun Moch and his environment is unparalleled.

In regards to Teras Kasi I would refer to the above quote, and while impressive it ultimately is going to have little effect against Vader's armor and endurance. Finally Niman would certainly give that advantage, but its no substitute for drawing on the forms directly as Vader did. Noting that Vader is a highly skilled practitioner of Niman and Jar'Kai dual fencing as well, possessing enough skill as a Padawan to catch Dooku off balance.

ILS

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Like I've said, there's more to a duel than strict technical prowess. Dooku's not only an extraordinary technician but is also vastly more powerful in the Force than someone like Sora Bulq. What did power have to do with Dooku disarming Bulq of one of his blades?

Nephthys

Originally posted by ILS
What did power have to do with Dooku disarming Bulq of one of his blades?

Power in the Force is a major part of lightsaber dueling. Dooku is probably faster, has faster reactions and can easily predict Bulq's moves while Bulq may find the opposite more difficult.

ILS

Originally posted by Nephthys
Power in the Force is a major part of lightsaber dueling. Dooku is probably faster, has faster reactions and can easily predict Bulq's moves while Bulq may find the opposite more difficult. Eh, I suppose, but it's hardly something that's touched upon heavily. Kenobi is dwarfed in Force power by Dooku and he wouldn't be stomped by him due to comparable physical feats and approaching skill. TPM Darth Maul wouldn't be wrecked in a duel by RotJ Darth Vader. The list probably goes on.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's pretty straightforward.
You posited that Dooku spent decades refining his command of Makashi and expressed doubt that Drallig would have mastered it to the same degree. I agree with you. Dooku's likely technical knowledge of other forms aside, he's obviously a specialist who elects to hone his skills in one form.

So while Drallig may not be as skilled a Makashi practitioner, his mastery of the other six forms probably makes him a superior sword-fighter in general to the Count.

Just like if you mastered 6 martial arts and I only mastered Taekwondo, I may be the superior Taekwondo practitioner, but you've mastered an additional five separate disciplines next to my one, which would mean your martial arts skills are technically greater by virtue of the wide range of techniques you mastered next to my comparatively limited arsenal. Only if you put effort into combining your mastery over those separate disciplines into one collective style. If you do not then all you an do in battle is alternate between your inferior mastery of each style, but in the end none of them, unless you manage to gain a strategic advantage, will be enough to best your opponent's superior master of just one discipline.

To quote Dooku himself:To put it into context, Maul has mastered several forms yes, but all he can do is alternate between those forms during combat (though this is something he will likely not do), yet none of them will be able to surpass superior Vader's hybrid style, which has had its effectiveness supplemented by other styles.

Likewise Drallig can alternate between all the styles he wants, but his skill in no one discipline he has at his disposal, will be enough to surpass Dooku's Makashi. Jack of all trades, master one none - metaphorically speaking - would be an appropriate phrase.

Nephthys

Which doesn't quite fit since he actually is a master of all of them.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't quite fit since he actually is a master of all of them. That's why I said metaphorically, Cin Drallig has a broad skill set but he is not as exceptional as Dooku in any one style.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by ILS
Has it ever been noted that Vader can compensate for more agile opponents? Because I think it'd be somewhat ignorant to dismiss the notion of agility bothering Vader altogether just because he's "in his prime". He still has physical limitations.He bested Starkiller, the Dark Woman (who can teleport) and took on 8 Jedi at once, killing 4. He has also demonstrated incredible speed, often imperceptible by non-Force sensitives and Force sensitives alike.

I believe I covered this in my original post.Originally posted by ILS
Eh, Maul's striking prowess would be enough to match Vader's strength when it comes to clashing blades. Between destroying droids with his kicks, kicking through durasteel armor, punching through a wampa (a feat performed without Force augmentation and before receiving two physical strength increases), kicking into a man's torso, shattering bones with his strikes (even as a teenager), ragdolling an armored creature which stoody 8 foot tall and strangling blood from it's mouth and eyes, and then slamming it with enough force to break it's neck (without Force augmentation) ect are all feats which can match Vader's. These were all performed before Maul's increase in overall Force Augmentation leading into TCW, as well. And Maul's strength feats during TCW aren't lacking either, between slamming Grievous into transparisteel hard enough to crack it, and launching a spear over a ridiculous distance like a missile with enough force to pierce clone armor.

And perhaps Maul's best strength feat, which happened pre-TCW - he ripped the armored skull off of a varactyl in a single jerk. This was done without Force Augmentation, to boot. These things are absolutely enormous (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Varactyl), and when you consider all of the tendons and muscle in addition to their skeleton, ripping one of their heads off is a pretty monumental feat of strength.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141754-rips+off+varactyl+skull.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141755-rips+off+varactyl+skull2.pngMaul is evidently strong, but he doesn't have the sheer rage and power that Vader possesses.He took on and defeated Dooku in both Force and martial prowess before his prime, and fought toe-to-toe with Kenobi, who he would go on to surpass. Some of the best duellists in the Order. He also beat Kenobi in ANH, who should not be underestimated.Ultimately I don't believe feats alone give a clear view of who is superior.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He was highly skilled in Niman and Jar'Kai, so he certainly has the foundations. However being able to wield a saberstaff doesn't really make you a better duelist. The same amount of skill can be acquired through other means, and has been by superior duelists.

Yes but Maul is not only Masterful with a Saber Staff, and with more conventional Jar Kai, just wielding Dual Blades, but he is just as Masterful with a more conventional single Saber.

Not to mention being exceptional in H2H.

It's that versatility that gives Maul the decisive edge in combat skill Imho.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You misunderstand, I am not saying that Maul's defense is poor, but that Vader's is simply better. In practice this may not appear the case, but neither of them have really being pushed to their limits, in theory however Vader should - with the tools he has at his disposal - come out on top. He just has more defensive resources.

Nah, Vader doesn't have better defensive resources.

Mobility and Acrobatics in itself (which everyone is agreeing Maul is superior at) gives great advantages in defensive and offensive maneuvers.

But Maul has time and time again fought defensively and done it superbly. You were going on about Kenobi getting the better of Maul in the cave. And I agree Kenobi fought exceptional in the cave, in fact it was probably his best offensive performance.

And yet all he landed on Maul was 1 kick which pushed Maul back. At one point when Opress is down Kenobi's proper attacking Maul all Jar Kai mode driving Maul back, yet Maul holds his own and keeps up his defenses.

So I'm not sure where people are getting that Vader's defenses are better than Maul's. Probably because he's said to have added Soresu to his Refined form. But that in itself is not proof of a superior defensive ability to Maul.

Trocity

Vader solidly.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but Maul is not only Masterful with a Saber Staff, and with more conventional Jar Kai, just wielding Dual Blades, but he is just as Masterful with a more conventional single Saber.

Not to mention being exceptional in H2H.

It's that versatility that gives Maul the decisive edge in combat skill Imho.Maul's ability to change his weapons load-out, which is in fact limited, doesn't really compare with the broadness of Vader's hybrid form that draws on all seven forms of lightsaber combat, while Maul's Juyo even with Niman and Jar'Kai remains limited in comparison. Nor does Maul have Dun Moch.

Bearing in mind that Maul does not have access to his saberstaff anyway.Evasion is no substitute for a proper defense because you won't always be in a position to dodge your opponents attacks, especially considering Vader's speed, and acrobatic moves leave you exposed in other ways. Vader benefits from a staunch defense - that yes draws on Djem So and Soresu, forms Maul lacks - that even Starkiller was unable to penetrate, Maul is not near his level in term of speed or power.Who may I add wields an extremely rapid and vicious variant of Juyo and in regards to the speed and ferocity of his attacks is far beyond the abilities of Qui-Gon or Padawan Kenobi.

I don't see Maul's performance against Kenobi as proof of anything, Kenobi was outnumbered and trapped in a small space, the two most damning weaknesses of Ataru, and yet still he managed to hold them off. Its nothing but an embarrassment that they were unable to defeat him.

P.S. I'd also add that again Maul does not have his saberstaff which was destroyed which considerably limits his defensive capabilities.

DarthAnt66

Beni SLAUGHTERHOUSING Darth Power

ILS

Okay?

So why is it that Maul's agility and acrobatics are made to sound nigh-redundant in your evaluation, yet any trait Vader may possess such as "precision" and "unpredictability" (two qualities Maul evidently shares) are to be so important? Agility is just as important as Vader's strength. It allows Maul to avoid Vader's strikes from time to time, maneuver around the field of battle with greater ease, and provides more offensive options.

Maul does have Dun Moch, actually. He used it against Kenobi on the Turtle Tanker, his clone used it like hell against Vader, he's used it against in the comic Death Sentence, ect, but I digress. The "pure physical victory" thing is an outdated element in Maul's game, he uses Force abilities and Dun Moch far more now, thanks to TCW.

To be honest I think it's clear to see you haven't fully countered my point that Maul is just as versatile as Vader, if not more so, when it comes to battle tactics and leading opponents to desirable locations.

That's not really the point, (although I would argue that feats like smashing droids and durasteel with his kicks and cracking transparisteel from tackling Grievous, as well as his clone penetrating Vader's helmet, are feats sufficient to say Vader would feel the shots when they land). What we were arguing was who has the more versatile skill set - Maul employing martial arts techniques into his lightsaber strikes and sequences are techniques Vader does not incorporate, and thus add to Maul's versatility.
At best it's about equal. Maul fully mastered Niman, which is based around taking bits and pieces from every lightsaber form, which is essentially what Vader did with his hybrid Form. Difference being, Maul has no physical limitations to overcome, so there's no need for a hybrid form.
Starkiller doesn't have Maul's skill or agility. Dark Woman is a decent example but IIRC she still caused Vader issues, which was what I was arguing for Maul in the first place, which only aids my argument. She may have teleportation but she, again, isn't as skilled as Maul, or agile in the traditional sense. Jango Fett has killed 8 Jedi with his bare hands. Not to use ABC logic, but it's not uncommon for common Jedi to get fodderized, unless any of them had decent feats.

Maul has performed those speed feats as well.
In other words you haven't refuted this section of my argument in the slightest.
Anakin defeated Dooku because he tapped into Dark Rage heavily. And honestly I believe Anakin from RotS is Vader/Anakin's overall prime, without CIS. Stronger dueling feats, better physical feats slightly and less physical limitations, comparable Force feats. ANH Kenobi is alright but his skills and physicals deteriorated over the years, making him less formidable than his prime self.
I don't think much of anything gives a clear view of who's superior. I think in terms of raw dueling ability they're rough equals, as I've said. Other than that, Vader is slightly stronger, definitely more durable, equally fast, far less agile, less capable martially/tactically but the clear superior with the Force.

NewGuy01

Dooku notes in the Jedi Path that he's dabbled in all forms, but only focuses on Makashi--He's mastered none of the others.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul's ability to change his weapons load-out, which is in fact limited, doesn't really compare with the broadness of Vader's hybrid form that draws on all seven forms of lightsaber combat, while Maul's Juyo even with Niman and Jar'Kai remains limited in comparison. Nor does Maul have Dun Moch.

Wait what? So Maul's complete mastery in different types of weapons, in H2H in Juyo and other Saber forms, doesn't compare to Vader's form because his form "borrows from other forms"??

You're not making a convincing argument here pal. Maul's mastery of a variety of Saber weapons, styles and forms + h2h and Tera Kasi almost certainly makes him a more technically skilled combatant than Vader.

You know very well TCW Maul uses Dun Moch, and has proven to use it most effectively even on Jedi Masters of Kenobi's caliber.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bearing in mind that Maul does not have access to his saberstaff anyway.Evasion is no substitute for a proper defense because you won't always be in a position to dodge your opponents attacks, especially considering Vader's speed, and acrobatic moves leave you exposed in other ways. Vader benefits from a staunch defense - that yes draws on Djem So and Soresu, forms Maul lacks - that even Starkiller was unable to penetrate, Maul is not near his level in term of speed or power.Who may I add wields an extremely rapid and vicious variant of Juyo and in regards to the speed and ferocity of his attacks is far beyond the abilities of Qui-Gon or Padawan Kenobi.

Since when did I say Evasion is a substitute for a Proper Saber defense?

As you've already admitted Maul has a Proper Saber defense, you're argument here makes no sense.

Maul's acrobatics only add to an already great defensive technique. Those acrobatics also aid in offensive maneuvers. These are major additions to Offensive and Defensive Prowess which Vader severely lacks and Maul excels in.

When did you decide Maul's defensive technique only works with a Saber staff? Enough examples of Maul's Consistent and High Level defensive technique with just a Single Saber has been given to you.

LOL @ Starkiller being faster than Maul. There's nothing overly impressive about Vader defending against a guy who he trained, and who had difficulty overpowering the Saber defenses of pretty much every Jedi he faced. The most notable being Shaak Ti, who he could not defeat in a Saber match up.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't see Maul's performance against Kenobi as proof of anything, Kenobi was outnumbered and trapped in a small space, the two most damning weaknesses of Ataru, and yet still he managed to hold them off. Its nothing but an embarrassment that they were unable to defeat him.

P.S. I'd also add that again Maul does not have his saberstaff which was destroyed which considerably limits his defensive capabilities.

On the contrary the novel Shadow Conspiracy specifically notes the environment was disadvantageous to Maul and Opress due to their size, not Kenobi, who clearly had no trouble doing all the acrobatics he needed to.

Considering a lesser duo than this one (Ventress + Opress) gave Count Dooku so much trouble, it's clear this was a peak performance from Kenobi in his Prime, and Maul held his own in a disadvanatageous environment for him . It was his unskilled brother who couldn't hold his own in that situation.

On the other hand Vader couldn't defeat an Old Ben Kenobi. Now that's an embarrassment IMHO.

Again: When did you decide Maul's defensive technique only works with a Saber staff? Enough examples of Maul's Consistent and High Level defensive technique with just a Single Saber has been given to you.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni SLAUGHTERHOUSING Darth Power

Looks like I have an Obsessive Stalker on my case.

Marco1907

Originally posted by ILS

Obi-Wan didn't outclass him. It's explained in Shadow Conspiracy that the reason he got the upper hand on Maul and Savage in the cave was because he adopted a highly aggressive and unorthodox form, which surprised Maul and Savage. Not only would this not work a second time, but it's not exactly indicative of Kenobi being better than Maul.

Agreed. Not to mention, Maul underestimated Kenobi there due to 2 v 1.

''Surrender, we are two. And you are no match for us both.''

And still they were winning until Kenobi hit Savage's left knee fifth times then Maul simply force blasted him and knocked out him temporarily.

Marco1907

Just like Obi-Wan's Soresu / Ataru combination, which Obi-Wan made a perfect hybrid form by fixing the weakness of Ataru. Maul did the same with Juyo, he is also master at Niman, which is good at using force attacks in mid-duel. Juyo / Niman combination is good as Soresu / Ataru combination of Kenobi imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Pure Juyo Master vs Djem So Hybrid Master = win for Vader IMO.

Your equation is wrong, Juyo / Niman / Martial arts Hybrid master = No win for Vader.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
the only advantage Maul has is speed/agility.

Like you just admit, Maul is faster than Vader. Which is the main problem for Vader's battles. Vader lost all of his battles due to speed difference. Heck, if he was fast like Dooku or Maul, he could even challange Emperor, but that never happened due to Sidious's force lightning and speed specialities, that is why Vader never become ''a rival'' to Sidious, I believe Lucas knowingly fixed this equation; which is Vader being slow and weak to lightning, while Sidious is very fast and very powerful at force lightning.

Maul would certainly use his speed advantage against Vader here, I would favor Maul in skill comparison, but still it is close, strength and durability as well, so this comes to TK vs. Speed, Vader has better TK while Maul has better speed.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Marco1907
Agreed. Not to mention, Maul underestimated Kenobi there due to 2 v 1.

''Surrender, we are two. And you are no match for us both.''

Yeah plus in the Cave Maul couldn't make use of his own acrobatics due to his size at the time. Whilst Kenobi's acrobatics were utilized perfectly.

And Opress was unable to do his signature Force Waves without hitting Maul as well (look at Death Sentence for an example, when Opress is aiming at Master Judd but clearly hits Maul as well). So that's 1 out of only 2 main strengths Opress has in combat gone for that fight- The remaining one just being his physical strength.

We've also seen Kenobi in other 2 on 1's in the series but on the receiving end of much worse. Like a peak performance from Ventress Knocking Kenobi down (disarming and winding him) within a few seconds while fighting off Skywalker. Then later she force chokes them both.

So in comparison Maul held his own just fine in "Revival" where it was actually him who floored Kenobi twice. Especially seen as Kenobi did no better against Maul in their 1 vs 1 earlier in the same episode (although he didn't get Force pushed in that 1 on 1 either).

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Marco1907

Maul would certainly use his speed advantage against Vader here, I would favor Maul in skill comparison, but still it is close, strength and durability as well, so this comes to TK vs. Speed, Vader has better TK while Maul has better speed.

That's the most fair analysis I've seen you give for a Maul vs Vader debate.

But still please quit this "Rival" argument. Maul was a Rival to Sidious in that he was amassing a powerful army without Sidious's consent. Plus starting his own Sith Order alongside Sidious's.

But he was no rival to Sidious in 1 v 1 combat. Heck Sidious hadn't even fought Maul yet when he said that.

Had Vader gone behind Palpatine's back taking a powerful apprentice and building up his own massive Galaxy wide army without Palpatine's consent and independent of the Empire, then you better believe Palaptine would see Vader as a "Rival" also.

The_Tempest

I remember a time when DP was like no Obi totes pwned Maul & Savageeeee

I'm so pleased that you've come to see things my way. excellent

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I remember a time when DP was like no Obi totes pwned Maul & Savageeeee

I'm so pleased that you've come to see things my way. excellent

I remember a time when you gave Kenobi zero credit for that performance..

Oh wait... That hasn't changed..

Beniboybling

Originally posted by ILS
So why is it that Maul's agility and acrobatics are made to sound nigh-redundant in your evaluation, yet any trait Vader may possess such as "precision" and "unpredictability" (two qualities Maul evidently shares) are to be so important? Agility is just as important as Vader's strength. It allows Maul to avoid Vader's strikes from time to time, maneuver around the field of battle with greater ease, and provides more offensive options.As I said it has strengths, and also weaknesses, weaknesses Vader tailored his style towards exploiting. Acrobatics for example leave the user exposed to Makashi-based precision attacks that Vader has at his disposal. While a Soresu-based defensive maneuvers mean that Vader can intercept attacks from any one angle with little movement. All Vader needs to do is fall into a stationary defense position and wait for Maul to exhaust himself. Unlike the standard Djem So duelist Vader has overcome his weaknesses against acrobatic opponents. Simply put Vader has his bases covered. I don't deny that it is an effective tool for Maul that will give Vader difficulty, but overall Vader's style retains the advantage.Fair enough however it remains a fact that Maul hasn't been properly trained in this field, and Vader is evidently superior, as well as far less susceptible to taunts.I've provided you with Vader's superior showings in terms of environmental manipulation, and explained how his mastery of Dun Moch in combination with his mastery over TK, makes him considerably superior in terms of tactics. Maul shows some ingenuity on Naboo, but it was the result of pre-preparation and prior experience with his opponent, advantages Maul does not have here. Other than that his use of the battlefield has been fairly rudimentary. Backing opponents into a corner is a basic and well used strategy in any lightsaber engagement.

And, considering Vader's vast superiority as a tactician, it is highly unlikely that he is going to be fooled by any of Maul's attempts to deceive him, especially considering he has learned the lessons's of Mustafar all too well. Altogether I don't see any evidence to suggest they are equals in this respect, let alone Maul his superior.I think he would, but Vader has shrugged off far far worse.

But I disagree. In regards to what Vader can employ in battle he has:

The randomised unpredictability of Shii-Cho and Juyo
The precision and economy of Makashi
The defensive capabilities of Soresu
The strength and stamina of Ataru and Djem So
And the general versatility and Force chaining capabilities of Niman

He has, for all intensive purposes, a style for every occasion. Every move Maul makes and every strategy Maul employs will be countered by the appropriate maneuver, for attack he has Djem So, for defense he has Soresu, he can counter acrobatics with Makashi and exploit Juyo's weaknesses against Force-based attacks with Niman.

This is the sheer versatility that Vader's hybrid style affords. Again:Maul on the other has Juyo, Niman, Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi at his disposal, but he still lacks 5 styles Vader can employ that he does not. Niman should not be compared to Vader's hybrid style. Vader drew on the forms directly, incorporating his high level of skill, if not perhaps mastery over these styles into his primary form in a way that complemented his preferences perfectly. Niman is a jack of all trades form that provides a general versatility, it draws on multiple styles but does not employ them in anything but a moderate level. It is average in everything, but lacks a highly level of skill in anything. It also doesn't employ any Makashi, the most dueling centric style. Finally Vader is intimately familiar with Jar'Kai and Niman fencing also, the only advantage Maul has there is his superior mastery.

I don't deny that it offers Maul a great deal of versatility as intended, and Maul no doubt employs in in creative and effective ways, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a general form, and no substitute for the forms it draws on.

The only thing Maul can draw on that Vader in anyway cannot is Teras Kasi. I really don't think that that alone makes up Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru and Djem So, styles Vader unlike Maul employs in battle, and not through some proxy form.You asked me if Vader compensated for his weaknesses against agile opponents, not if Vader has defeated anyone more agile than Maul. The answer to your question is that he did, by incorporating other styles such as Soresu and Makashi into his form, providing him with as I explained and impenetrable defense and means of exploiting his opponents weaknesses.

And this reality it self evident in the respect that agile opponents have never given him a hard time since, regardless of whether they are as skilled as Maul.

Argue that Maul could be more agile than Vader regardless, but you'd be arguing from absence.

Anyway Vader handled the Dark Woman capably, despite her using plants to constrict him he was still able to hold off her acrobatic onslaught, his defense never faltered, she was only able to manage a brief advantage by ambushing him, from which Vader quickly recovered. And since then Vader improved considerably.

Noting that she may not be as skilled as Maul, but her style was far more acrobatic, she was wielding pure Ataru to I assume master level.

And while Starkiller is not as agile or skilled as Maul, he is faster. Which means it acts as prove that Vader can easily hold off rapid assaults.Your argument was that Maul has a lot of physical strength, that is true but he lacks Vader's dark rage, he can use the Force Vader to outstrip any strength feats Maul performs absolutely.
Dooku was in awe of Anakin's style, so I think that suggests he is the better duelist. The only reason Anakin has stronger duelling feats is because post-Order 66 all the decent duelists were dead. That does not suggest he was better. Overall though I disagree, Vader overcame the limitations of his suit and built on his style in ways Anakin never did.To claim that Maul is superior tactically to Vader just seems silly and unsupported to me. Everything he has done has been rudimentary and replicated by many other duellists, the sole exception to this rule was when Maul has the advantage of extensive pre-preparation and prior experience.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since when did I say Evasion is a substitute for a Proper Saber defense?

As you've already admitted Maul has a Proper Saber defense, you're argument here makes no sense.

Maul's acrobatics only add to an already great defensive technique. Those acrobatics also aid in offensive maneuvers. These are major additions to Offensive and Defensive Prowess which Vader severely lacks and Maul excels in.

When did you decide Maul's defensive technique only works with a Saber staff? Enough examples of Maul's Consistent and High Level defensive technique with just a Single Saber has been given to you.

LOL @ Starkiller being faster than Maul. There's nothing overly impressive about Vader defending against a guy who he trained, and who had difficulty overpowering the Saber defenses of pretty much every Jedi he faced. The most notable being Shaak Ti, who he could not defeat in a Saber match up. Maul's defensive technique comprises the following:

Acrobatics/agility
His saberstaff
High level Soresu via Niman mastery

His acrobatic ability is a double-edged sword, on one hand it allows him to evade his opponents attacks, but on the other hand in the process of evasion he leaves himself exposed to a second attack. His agility is an advantage, but Vader is by no means slow so it is minor.

Maul no longer has a saberstaff at his disposal, so we can cut that out of the equation and all the defensive benefits to affords, which thanks to its significantly larger surface area in comparison to a normal lightsaber, is profound.

And finally his skill in Soresu is no match for Vader's evident mastery. Supplemented by the aggressive defensive capabilities of Djem So.

Vader wins in terms of defense, hands down.

Starkiller is vastly more powerful than Maul, and much much faster. Shaak Ti, despite having a Force Nexus, a sarlaac and superior lightsaber mastery at her disposal, was pushed to desperate measures and killed thanks to Marek's superior reflexes. All before Starkiller reached his prime. Its a moot point.Whatever the case, it says nothing good about their abilities. They were totally defeated in lightsaber combat. I'm not about to use it as an argument against them given it has been said to be circumstantial, but it cannot be used as proof of Maul's skill. The only reason Maul "held his own" was because Kenobi was outnumbered, he didn't have an opportunity to press the attack.

And concerning Ben Kenobi:Kenobi was losing, realising this and realising his distraction has worked, he surrendered himself to the inevitable rather than prolong a futile engagement.

Though may I make clear, that Kenobi remained a formidable duelist.

P.S. Please provide it again, I must have missed it.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Marco1907
Just like Obi-Wan's Soresu / Ataru combination, which Obi-Wan made a perfect hybrid form by fixing the weakness of Ataru. Maul did the same with Juyo, he is also master at Niman, which is good at using force attacks in mid-duel. Juyo / Niman combination is good as Soresu / Ataru combination of Kenobi imo.Mastery of Niman is no substitute for a mastery over Soresu. All Niman would have provided is the basics, a general level of Soresu competency and every other form. Yes Maul would have brought this to the highest possible level, but it will never be a substitute for the actual form.Vader has only been defeated twice, both due to superior Force ability, not agility. And he would lose against Sidious for the exact same reasons, agility does not have to be countered with agility, a staunch defense is all one requires, and that is exactly what Vader has and what he will use to defeat Maul.

Vader however is not slow, he lacks agility and acrobatics, but he is not slow. Vader can move faster than the eye can see, even to a Force sensitive, and his reflexes are impeccable.

Do not assume Vader is a lumbering brute, more or an immovable rock.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul's defensive technique comprises the following:

Acrobatics/agility
His saberstaff
High level Soresu via Niman mastery

Agree with all except Saber staff.

I've not seen or read anywhere that the Saber Staff in itself is some sort of defensive weapon. If you have a quote that says differently, then by all means feel free to provide it.

Jar Kai seems to be used more for defensive purposes, as Jar Kai users have more than once used the form to defend against 2 attacking opponents, as shown by Ventress on numerous occasions and by Kenobi in "Revival."

But even then the weapon is only a tool. It's the users form and technique which is doing the real defending. As Kenobi has shown in "Revival" he can apply his Soresu invincible defense just as well with Dual Sabers as he can with a Single Saber.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
His acrobatic ability is a double-edged sword, on one hand it allows him to evade his opponents attacks, but on the other hand in the process of evasion he leaves himself exposed to a second attack. His agility is an advantage, but Vader is by no means slow so it is minor.

The disadvantages to it are minimal I'd say given I don't remember many people being struck down while leaping, or sumersaulting. I know Maul certainly hasn't been. I'm not suggesting Vader is slow. It's his acrobatics and maneuverability that's lacking, and Maul excelling in this area is most definitely going to cause problems for Vader in a pure Saber fight. And only adds to Maul's already incredible defensive technique.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul no longer has a saberstaff at his disposal, so we can cut that out of the equation and all the defensive benefits to affords, which thanks to its significantly larger surface area in comparison to a normal lightsaber, is profound.

Actually the only time I remember Maul's Saber defense even partially broken was when using his Saber staff, by Kenobi cutting it in TPM. (Excluding his fight with Sidious, given that Sidious is simply in a different Saber league to both Maul and Vader).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And finally his skill in Soresu is no match for Vader's evident mastery. Supplemented by the aggressive defensive capabilities of Djem So.

Vader wins in terms of defense, hands down.

Ok, now you do realize that you're not actually proving anything here, but just stating your opinion as fact right?

You've already admitted Maul also has a high level Soresu mastery via Niman. So whose to say Vader's is greater? Honestly the only way to compare is to compare defensive Saber feats. And do you really want to count how many times Vader's Saber defenses have been broken compared to how many times Maul's have been broken?

And then do you want to compare the Caliber of those who broke Vader's Saber defenses next to the caliber of those who broke Maul's saber defenses?

My opinion is that they both clearly have a great defensive technique (although Maul's seems to be more consistent Imho), but then Maul's acrobatics give him the decisive edge in this category.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Starkiller is vastly more powerful than Maul, and much much faster. Shaak Ti, despite having a Force Nexus, a sarlaac and superior lightsaber mastery at her disposal, was pushed to desperate measures and killed thanks to Marek's superior reflexes. All before Starkiller reached his prime.

Doesn't change the fact that that Starkiller fought many opponents (most of them below Shaak Ti) and greatly struggled with every one of them in the Saber portion of the fight.

And to top it off, he did pass Vader's Saber defenses as well. So it is a moot point, and we can in fact add that to one of the times Vader's Saber defenses have been broken.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its a moot point.Whatever the case, it says nothing good about their abilities. They were totally defeated in lightsaber combat. I'm not about to use it as an argument against them given it has been said to be circumstantial, but it cannot be used as proof of Maul's skill. The only reason Maul "held his own" was because Kenobi was outnumbered, he didn't have an opportunity to press the attack.

Firstly you'll have to point me to the part where Maul was "totally defeated in Lightsaber combat." Am I missing something about that fight? Was Maul put on his Ass? Did Kenobi wreck Maul's knee in? Did Maul lose his Saber in that fight, only to be saved by Opress?

I agree it doesn't say anything Special about Maul's abilities, but there is one good thing which I'm pointing out. Even in low performances Maul's defenses stay solid.

On the other hand look at Kenobi, the Master of Soresu, even he can not stay Consistent in his Defensive performances. He's been knocked down and disarmed by Ventress, with the help of Skywalker. He's actually been disarmed by Ventress in a one on one as well. He's been defeated by Grievous, and his defenses hardly held up against Count Dooku in "The Lost One."

And he is The Master of Defense. Given that I think it's pretty impressive of Maul, that even in his low performances, his Saber Defenses hold strong, pretty consistently.

Also saying Maul only "held his own" because Kenobi was outnumbered, is a bit of a stretchy assumption, considering he more than held his own in his 1 vs 1 against Kenobi earlier in the same damn episode.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And concerning Ben Kenobi:Kenobi was losing, realising this and realising his distraction has worked, he surrendered himself to the inevitable rather than prolong a futile engagement.

Your statement seems to be from Vader's perespective. The ANH novel however makes it pretty clear that Vader and Old Ben fought pretty equally. The only reason he sacrificed himself was to give Luke an opportunity to escape.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Though may I make clear, that Kenobi remained a formidable duelist.

P.S. Please provide it again, I must have missed it.

I'm sure Kenobi was still a formidable duelist, but whereas Maul's been stalemating Prime Kenobi, Vader stalemated the Older out of shape, and out of practice Kenobi. I think we know which is more impressive.

Sorry provide what again?