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Yoda

Windu

Obiwan

vs

Anakin

Sideous

Maul

Sith OWN that fight, i mean its almost a blow out if you ask me, the only one on that team that can really stand up to the Sith crew would be Yoda and its arguable that he takes a backseat power wise to the Emperor. Mace is good but Maul and Anakin (I noticed you didnt say Vader) are better and Obi Wan beat Maul and Anakin on a fluke he gets the chop first.

if you wanna really get a good debate going on this fight swap Sidious for Tyranus and youve got a way more even fight on your hands.

Jedi take this.

Originally posted by relentless1
Mace is good but Maul and Anakin (I noticed you didnt say Vader) are better http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3904008/agent-smith-laughing-o.gif

Maul is the weak link in this fight.

Obi has shown he can beat Anakin, either Yoda or Mace would beat Maul, and either one of them could at least hold off Sidious (if not beat him, in Mace's case). Once Maul is dead someone is getting double-teamed and killed.

Jedi win more times than not.

no way, Obi Wan beating Anakin was a fluke plain and simple, he took advantage of Vaders hubris, thats not a win thats eeking by, let them fight again in a nrutral territory like the Jedi temple and Anakin slices him up, same thing happened with Maul he lost due to hubris gurantee he dominates the rematch because he was a better fighter than Obi wan, a guy that takes on 2 jedi and more than holds his own is a force to be reckoned with. Its long been established that Sidious was playing possum with Windu the only one that is even on his level is Yoda. Look at the people, the dark side has clouded your judgement young padawan

Originally posted by NemeBro
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3904008/agent-smith-laughing-o.gif

Maul is the weak link in this fight.

Obi has shown he can beat Anakin, either Yoda or Mace would beat Maul, and either one of them could at least hold off Sidious (if not beat him, in Mace's case). Once Maul is dead someone is getting double-teamed and killed.

Jedi win more times than not. Maul owns Obi so you calling him a weak link is faulty. The only reason Obi defeated Anakin after a long battle was due to arrogance so it isn't like Obi would ever have the time to pull it off. Maul would go right for Obi anyways due to his own personal hatred of him.

Sidious threw the fight with Windu to be fair

Though Maul would go down to Windu and Yoda for sure, maybe even Obi-Wan currently

Obi only won because of Anakin's arrogance, and CIS is not a thing in vs debates

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Sidious threw the fight with Windu to be fair

Though Maul would go down to Windu and Yoda for sure, maybe even Obi-Wan currently

Obi only won because of Anakin's arrogance, and CIS is not a thing in vs debates No, he didn't and nothing alludes to that in the film. Quit lying.

Maul victimized Obi again and again in continuity.

Yeah he did, given he was pretending to be unable to fight at all when Anakin stepped in and then he owned the shit out of Windu when Anakin chopped his hand off, Sidious used this to get Anakin to his side

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Yeah he did, given he was pretending to be unable to fight at all when Anakin stepped in and then he owned the shit out of Windu when Anakin chopped his hand off, Sidious used this to get Anakin to his side He was unable to fight when Windu had him at his mercy with his saber but got the advantage after Anakin served a limb you idiot. You are quite stupid.

Windu won one on one but Palpatine finished him off after Anakin cheapshotted him.

Regardless Jedi win. Yoda is more or less equal to Sidious, Windu superior to Anakin, and Kenobi defeats Maul.

He was pretending, saying he was too weak to do anything, then actually frying Windu when Anakin tried to save Palpatine, that was what Palpatine was trying to do, get Anakin as his apprentice

Then again I remembered, context is only allowed for verses you like, silly me

windu superior to anakin?? gimme a break, anakin would have gotten angry and chopeed sam down the middle

Originally posted by ares834
Regardless Jedi win. Yoda is more or less equal to Sidious, Windu superior to Anakin, and Kenobi defeats Maul. You are ignoring the fact Maul owned Obi in the clone wars a animated series which is canon. Maul only lost once after he won due to arrogance. Quit ignoring evidence.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
He was pretending, saying he was too weak to do anything, then actually frying Windu when Anakin tried to save Palpatine, that was what Palpatine was trying to do, get Anakin as his apprentice

Then again I remembered, context is only allowed for verses you like, silly me After he was defeated he tried to manipulate Anakin because he knew he could not best Windu on his own. He never ran out of energy but the guy was frying his own face. He was hurt and only hurting himself.

Windu beat his ass.

Did nobody watch the damn movie?

Maul beat Obi and QuiGon in 2 on 1 saber battle with ease and due to PIS he lost.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Did nobody watch the damn movie?

Mail beat Obi and QuiGon in 2 on 1 saber battle with ease and due to PIS he lost. Ares is being a fanboy. Maul terrorizes the hell out of him in the clone wars even further.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are ignoring the fact Maul owned Obi in the clone wars a animated series which is canon. Maul only lost once after he won due to arrogance. Quit ignoring evidence.

And what of the fight where Kenobi defeated both Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Did nobody watch the damn movie?

Mail beat Obi and QuiGon in 2 on 1 saber battle with ease and due to PIS he lost.

Padawan Kenobi, not the Kenobi who was capable of matching Anakin.

Originally posted by ares834
Padawan Kenobi, not the Kenobi who was capable of matching Anakin.

It was 2 on 1 regardless.

And Maul was an apprentice as well.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
It was 2 on 1 regardless.

And Maul was an apprentice as well.

That's cool. Kenobi improved though while Maul died (unless we bring the new EU into things).

Originally posted by ares834
That's cool. Kenobi improved though while Maul died (unless we bring the new EU into things). Clone wars is canon so maul did not die. You're ignorant. Disney has said that is canon and maul returns.

Is there any new EU material yet? I mean there are new novels in the process of being written but, still

Originally posted by ares834
And what of the fight where Kenobi defeated both Maul and Savage. No, he did not. You're lying. Obi ran from him and was defeated by him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Clone wars is canon so maul did not die. You're ignorant. Disney has said that is canon and maul returns.

Sure thing. Yet this is the movie forum and we rely on movie feats. I know that there was talk about that rule changing but I haven't seen anything definitive yet.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, he did not. You're lying. Obi ran from him and was defeated by him.

Nope.

Kenobi lost the first fight but that was because he just woke up from being knocked out and because he used the dark side.

In the second fight he takes on both Savage and Maul chops off Savage's arm and force Maul to retreat.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Is there any new EU material yet? I mean there are new novels in the process of being written but, still

Two tv shows, a comic, and three books that I know of.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope.

Kenobi lost the first fight but that was because he just woke up from being knocked out and because he used the dark side.

In the second fight he takes on both Savage and Maul chops off Savage's arm and force Maul to retreat.



Two tv shows, a comic, and three books that I know of. Iirc Obi did not defeat Maul and he was forced to retreat because of other does pressing him.

Iirc maul also plainly beat him another time.

They had two full duels. The first time Kenobi retreated. The second time Maul (and Savage) did.

Originally posted by ares834
They had two full duels. The first time Kenobi retreated. The second time Maul (and Savage) did. iirc Wasn't it due to Hondo'spirates whereas the first duel was Obi just fleeing ??

Nope. They were dueling in a tunnel. Kenobi cuts off Savage's arm and Maul force pushes Kenobi away allowing them to escape. Only after the are retreating does Hondo and his pirates begin to fire upon Maul.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. They were dueling in a tunnel. Kenobi cuts off Savage's arm and Maul force pushes Kenobi away allowing them to escape. Only after the are retreating does Hondo and his pirates begin to fire upon Maul. Which episode ? I still recall them being overwhelmed. Maul always showed himself to be superior to Obi in one on one combat.

I don't know... Lol. The two were presented as more or less equals in the show with both holding the advantage in various fights. Anyway, don't you always cry movies only?

It's "Revival."

Originally posted by ares834
I don't know... Lol. The two were presented as more or less equals in the show with both holding the advantage in various fights. Anyway, don't you always cry movies only? This is canon and impediment allowed the series for Star Trek so I don't see the difference here.

Maul has a huge advantage either way.

Maul was clearly his superior in the show and a rival to Palpatine. Palpatine was clearly superior but he still acknowledged Maul as a rival. Obi's small time compared to Palpatine.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is canon and impediment allowed the series for Star Trek so I don't see the difference here.

Maul has a huge advantage either way.

Maul was clearly his superior in the show and a rival to Palpatine. Palpatine was clearly superior but he still acknowledged Maul as a rival. Obi's small time compared to Palpatine.

?

Maul was a rival in that he was an independent agent with an agenda that conflicted with Palpatine's own. He was clearly not a rival in the physical sense, given how utterly Sidious shitstomped Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
?

Maul was a rival in that he was an independent agent with an agenda that conflicted with Palpatine's own. He was clearly not a rival in the physical sense, given how utterly Sidious shitstomped Maul and Savage. In terms of both. Physically he was on par but in terms of force powers and skill Palpatine had his number. Maul was still a rival unlike the weakling known as Obi.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In terms of both. Physically he was on par but in terms of force powers and skill Palpatine had his number. Maul was still a rival unlike the weakling known as Obi.

When I say "physically," I don't literally mean musculature. I mean as a physical threat. Sidious is vastly superior, which is why he took Maul and Savage to the curb at the same time.

Palpatine deemed Maul a rival because Maul had his own apprentice which conflicted the "Rule of Two"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
When I say "physically," I don't literally mean musculature. I mean as a physical threat. Sidious is vastly superior, which is why he took Maul and Savage to the curb at the same time. I agree in terms of a formidability and only saw him as a rival in terms of possibly being able to someday best him but not even close as to when they squared off.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree in terms of a formidability and only saw him as a rival in terms of eventually being able to someday best him but not even close as to when they squared off.

Perhaps. Either way, though, neither Maul nor Obi-Wan are anything but fodder for someone like Sidious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps. Either way, though, neither Maul nor Obi-Wan are anything but fodder for someone like Sidious. No, Maul was far greater than Obi. Palpatine wouldn't train some scrub.

Fact remains that Sith own the Jedi in this fight.
Sidious > Yoda
Vader > Windu
Maul = Obi Wan ( at best for Obi )

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, Maul was far greater than Obi. Palpatine wouldn't train some scrub.

I never said Maul wasn't greater than Obi-Wan. I just said they're both fodder next to Palpatine... which they are.

Originally posted by relentless1
Fact remains that Sith own the Jedi in this fight.
Sidious > Yoda
Vader > Windu
Maul = Obi Wan ( at best for Obi ) Windu would break Vader. Don't be silly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Clone wars is canon so maul did not die. You're ignorant. Disney has said that is canon and maul returns. In Clone Wars Obi fought Maul and Savage Opress at once. He also won, IIRC.

Jedi win. Maul is the weak link.

Originally posted by NemeBro
In Clone Wars Obi fought Maul and Savage Opress at once. He also won, IIRC. Completely false.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Completely false.
Kenobi's victory was highly circumstantial, but nah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

"Obi-Wan knew the Sith would expect him to take up a defensive stance in an effort to keep them at bay. But he also knew that tactic would give him no hope to prevail -- he would be worn down until his guard slipped and then he would die, like Adi had. Surprise was his best bet for survival -- and perhaps his only chance. The two Sith fell back, startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attack. Sabers hissed, their blades striking sparks from the walls, leaving half-melted scrapes and bubbling burns in their wake. The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall -- but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way." --Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Obi-Wan Kenobi's sudden aggressive attacks and the confining corridor was to his benefit and their disadvantage, making it a highly circumstantial victory.
----- ----- ------ ------ -----
However, Darth Maul did hold his own shortly against Mace Windu and Aayla Secura on a Mandalorian supply outpost, but that doesn't put Maul on Windu's tier:
http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/17/73/92/12/mau_11.jpg

That book is non canon though.

Lame, I forgot these forums over here don't use the EU.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kenobi's victory was highly circumstantial, but nah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74 Maul force pushes him away and protects his brother. He looked superior here as well. In no way, shape, or form does Kenobi best maul here. GTFO.

Kenobi bested Maul there.

How does Maul have his legs here but not in the above video where he fought Obi?

x2B7nNblzRY

:facepalm:

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenobi bested Maul there. Maul force pushed him. He was not ever bested by Obi. Acting like him leaving to aid his hurt brother and ignoring Hondo's pirates backup is silly.

He ran away because he couldn't stand before Kenobi. Maul is a coward at heart. Just look at how he begged for his life to Sidious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
:facepalm:

I don't watch EU, so reverse facepalm.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130824192338/dragonball/images/7/7c/Auron-reverse-facepalm-meme-generator-reverse-facepalm-you-re-doing-it-right-c73bf8.jpg

Easiest way to argue:


Mace > Sidious

Yoda > Vader

Obi Wan = Maul


Yoda would beat Vader the quickest, then its a double and triple team.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
How does Maul have his legs here but not in the above video where he fought Obi?

x2B7nNblzRY Maul, when found by Savaj, was given "legs" by the Nightsister queen. They had claw-like feet. Hondo and his men severely damaged those "legs" in a battle. Savaj also lost his left arm to Kenobi in said battle. Maul and Savaj fled in an escape pod, but ended up adrift in space. Pre Vizla and a group of Mandalore warriors (Death Watch) found Maul and Savaj near dead and rescued them, bringing them to their homeworld and giving Maul the new set of "legs" we see in the video. Savaj also received a new arm.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He ran away because he couldn't stand before Kenobi. Maul is a coward at heart. Just look at how he begged for his life to Sidious. False, he fled because his brother was injured. Palpatine also begged for his life. Both were tough but when push came to shove both begged when their lives were threatened. Abrams might have gave the dark side the balls it so desperately needed prior to episode seven.

Originally posted by quanchi112
False, he fled because his brother was injured. Palpatine also begged for his life. Both were tough but when push came to shove both begged when their lives were threatened. Abrams might have gave the dark side the balls it so desperately needed prior to episode seven. Seriously?

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Seriously? Of course.

It's painful to see you guys ignore the EU like this.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's painful to see you guys ignore the EU like this. EU is no longer canon anyways. Disney shot that shit down.

It's still higher in the food-chain then your inaccurate opinion.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's still higher in the food-chain then your inaccurate opinion. It doesn't count.

I hope you read all that horseshit that disney pissed on.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Of course. Lol SO not what happened in the movie.

Why are you surprised, RJ, you know Quanchi is SW ignorant.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Dude, seriously? Can you not answer. That's another concession.

Originally posted by Robtard
Why are you surprised, RJ, you know Quanchi is SW ignorant. I know more about Star Wars than you do.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Can you not answer. That's another concession. No, that's me being amazed that someone can be as SW ignorant as you.

Jedi wins more often then not.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I know more about Star Wars than you do.

You don't even know the correct name of the man directing Ep7

Originally posted by quanchi112
Can't wait Forrester Abrams Wars though, munchkin.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
No, that's me being amazed that someone can be as SW ignorant as you. Says the tool bag himself who is nothing but a memory.

Originally posted by Robtard
You don't even know the correct name of the man directing Ep7 You're so angry.



I know far more about Star Wars but obsess over spelling and other feminine things.

Originally posted by quanchi112

I know far more about Star Wars but obsess over spelling and other feminine things.

You know next to nothing about SW and your spelling is usually atrocious, but why are you obsessing over feminine things, you short little weirdo

Originally posted by quanchi112
Says the tool bag himself who is nothing but a memory. Lawlz u mad.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Lawlz u mad. You need a new schtick.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You need a new schtick. You're short.

Originally posted by relentless1
no way, Obi Wan beating Anakin was a fluke plain and simple, he took advantage of Vaders hubris, thats not a win thats eeking by, let them fight again in a nrutral territory like the Jedi temple and Anakin slices him up, same thing happened with Maul he lost due to hubris gurantee he dominates the rematch because he was a better fighter than Obi wan, a guy that takes on 2 jedi and more than holds his own is a force to be reckoned with. Its long been established that Sidious was playing possum with Windu the only one that is even on his level is Yoda. Look at the people, the dark side has clouded your judgement young padawan

You literally have no clue what you're talking about. The Jedi stomp and it's not even close.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Sidious threw the fight with Windu to be fair

Though Maul would go down to Windu and Yoda for sure, maybe even Obi-Wan currently

Obi only won because of Anakin's arrogance, and CIS is not a thing in vs debates

False again, I've already crushed this theory numerous times that Sids threw the fight. I can do it once more if you'd like.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I never said Maul wasn't greater than Obi-Wan. I just said they're both fodder next to Palpatine... which they are.

Only Maul isn't greater as we've established Tempest. One got turned into a pint sized midget by a Padawan. The other lived a long and full life with all his body intact. Kenobi is superior and has the superior wins on his ledger. It's not close really. If you want to compare victories.. this will be very clear and you know it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It doesn't count.

I hope you read all that horseshit that disney pissed on.

When did Disney through out all EU material. Please post a link to this and which material is no longer canon.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
You're short. I am taller than robbie. He is such a little fella.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
When did Disney through out all EU material. Please post a link to this and which material is no longer canon. You are one of the most clueless people I have ever met. Continue to pm me begging for Thanos scans, ugly.

Jedi

the star wars eu is now called star wars legends and it is officially non canon

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am taller than robbie. He is such a little fella. How tall are you?

ok so let me ask you all this then, if you think the Jedi team would win so easily then how about swapping Maul for Tyranus? is is still so lopsided in your opinion?

Sidious
Anakin
Tyranus

vs

Yoda
Windu
Obi Wan

Originally posted by relentless1
the star wars eu is now called star wars legends and it is officially non canon Sad that Kurupt openly admitted he doesnt know this.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
How tall are you? 5 foot 9 and a half.

Originally posted by quanchi112
5 foot 9 and a half. Looks like I'm taller than you.

Originally posted by relentless1
ok so let me ask you all this then, if you think the Jedi team would win so easily then how about swapping Maul for Tyranus? is is still so lopsided in your opinion?

Sidious
Anakin
Tyranus

vs

Yoda
Windu
Obi Wan

That's a much better fight IMO

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Looks like I'm taller than you. I never claimed to be tall just taller than the short lad known as Roberta.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never claimed to be tall just taller than the short lad known as Roberta.

I know, just saying I'm taller than you.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
I know, just saying I'm taller than you. You are probably ugly though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are probably ugly though.

I have a beautiful wife and a kid on the way.

You?

Originally posted by Werewolf582
I have a beautiful wife and a kid on the way.

You? Proof ?

Originally posted by ares834
Regardless Jedi win. Yoda is more or less equal to Sidious, Windu superior to Anakin, and Kenobi defeats Maul.





My thoughts exactly.

and for anyone that says Anakin loses to Windu, take into consideration that Dooku is a better swordsman than Windu and Anakin beat him with ease once he tapped into the dark side, also lending credit to the fact that Sidious took a dive in his fight with Windu. At the very least you nay sayers must concede that Dooku was at least equal with Windu in any case that translates to a win for Anakin.

Sidious = Yoda

Anakin > Windu

Obi Wan > Maul

Originally posted by relentless1
and for anyone that says Anakin loses to Windu, take into consideration that Dooku is a better swordsman than Windu and Anakin beat him with ease once he tapped into the dark side, also lending credit to the fact that Sidious took a dive in his fight with Windu. At the very least you nay sayers must concede that Dooku was at least equal with Windu in any case that translates to a win for Anakin.

Sidious = Yoda

Anakin > Windu

Obi Wan > Maul More like Sidious=Yoda>Vader=Windu=Dooku>>>>RoTS Anakin/Obi/Maul/ROTJ Luke

This is just based on commentaries made by George Lucas.

Bonus: Plagueis=TFA Luke>>

Originally posted by relentless1
and for anyone that says Anakin loses to Windu, take into consideration that Dooku is a better swordsman than Windu and Anakin beat him with ease once he tapped into the dark side, also lending credit to the fact that Sidious took a dive in his fight with Windu. At the very least you nay sayers must concede that Dooku was at least equal with Windu in any case that translates to a win for Anakin.

Sidious = Yoda

Anakin > Windu

Obi Wan > Maul

Literally NOTHING you said here is fact and most of it is bullshit. YOu clearly don't know much about the mythos. Mace is better than Dooku and Anakin and it's not close really. About the only thing you got right is placing Kenobi above maul though that's even more like Kenobi >= maul

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Literally NOTHING you said here is fact and most of it is bullshit. YOu clearly don't know much about the mythos. Mace is better than Dooku and Anakin and it's not close really. About the only thing you got right is placing Kenobi above maul though that's even more like Kenobi >= maul Maul was a lot better at combat in TPM but I'm sure eventually it evened out. Kenobi won by surprise.

The element of surprise, it's how less skilled combatants defeated more skilled combatants with a momentary burst of proficiency, Anakin and Dooku, Luke and Vader, Mace and Sidious.

how do you have Vader above Anakin? in force powers sure, but in sabers and physical prime it was all Anakin. Anakin per lucas, lost a lot of midochlorites when he was chopped up into pieces. That is why he was never able to reach his potential. He not only lost mobility but also some of his strong connection to the force.

"Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. He was the Jedi Temple's most agile swordmaster and instructor. Dooku was the only Jedi besides Yoda who was known to have bested Mace Windu at sparring, and during the time of the Confederacy Crisis, it was said that aside from Yoda, only Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."

from the star wars wiki so suck it *****

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Literally NOTHING you said here is fact and most of it is bullshit. YOu clearly don't know much about the mythos. Mace is better than Dooku and Anakin and it's not close really. About the only thing you got right is placing Kenobi above maul though that's even more like Kenobi >= maul




Totally agree. Mace was even keeping up with Sidious for Christ sake! His win over Sidious may've even been legit and not just him throwing the match to influence Anakin as so many believe. Is there any actual proof that Sidious lost on purpose or is it just a case of people wanting to believe it?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
how do you have Vader above Anakin? in force powers sure, but in sabers and physical prime it was all Anakin. Anakin per lucas, lost a lot of midochlorites when he was chopped up into pieces. That is why he was never able to reach his potential. He not only lost mobility but also some of his strong connection to the force.

Good post

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
how do you have Vader above Anakin? in force powers sure, but in sabers and physical prime it was all Anakin. Anakin per lucas, lost a lot of midochlorites when he was chopped up into pieces. That is why he was never able to reach his potential. He not only lost mobility but also some of his strong connection to the force. Vader paced himself, he was still a more skilled duelist. He made use of what he could, cybernetic limbs and heavy body armor allowed him to fight more like a Knight than a Samurai.

Vader was altogether more dangerous in combat. As for Force potential, Vader had the highest concentration of midi-chlorians per cell of anyone in the mythos. Even after Mustafar, he retained that concentration in what was left of his body, and all the powers developed as Anakin, and so he still had enough midichlorians in his body to potentially overpower the Emperor. He was a vergence in the Force, his son and daughter were merely freakishly powerful off-springs.

Let's examine the indications of Vader's remnant potential, he sensed the presence of his son when the Emperor could not, which was a sign in and of itself that he still could have easily surpassed the Emperor given motivation. As Vader his motivations were loathing, and the reunion with his offspring. Which showed, he had no loathing for his son and was caught off guard and his son got the better of him for a moment in RoTJ. His son also gave him incentive to surpass the Emperor's senses. The Emperor would never have sensed that Leia was Luke's sister. The Emperor wouldn't have known what happened to Kenobi upon vanishing, nor would he have later taught himself to become a Force ghost as Vader had apparently done so.

Furthermore, RoTJ Luke was RoTS Anakin's level in prowess, both of them seen developing the Force choke technique out of instinct. It shows Luke's progression was quicker than Anakin's, mostly because Yoda was a better instructor to Luke than Kenobi was to Anakin. Also, Luke's training would have been far more intense, culminated with Luke's greater clarity and ease of mind as well as his superior dedication to training. By the time he faced Vader on Bespin he would have been Episode II Anakin's equal in progression.

Originally posted by Star428


Totally agree. Mace was even keeping up with Sidious for Christ sake! His win over Sidious may've even been legit and not just him throwing the match to influence Anakin as so many believe. Is there any actual proof that Sidious lost on purpose or is it just a case of people wanting to believe it? Mace pulled a 4/10 win. Mostly, Sidious would have been able to defeat Windu, Windu had as good of a shot at the Emperor as Dooku had at Yoda. That kick to the face caught the Emperor at the perfect moment (shatterpoint), after disarmament he was disadvantaged, despite his superior strength in the Force.

I don't agree with your opinion that Dooku had as good a shot as defeating Yoda as Mace did defeating Sidious because it sure looked to me like Mace actually beat Sidious whereas Dooku only fought Yoda briefly and then ran away just as Yoda was getting warmed-up. If that fight had gone on much longer Yoda would've shown that he was clearly >>>>> Dooku. Dooku tucked tail and ran away though because he knew he would eventually lose. Technically speaking, fleeing the way he did counts as a loss anyway, imo.

Also, Anakin clearly bested him by himself in RotS.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only Maul isn't greater as we've established Tempest. One got turned into a pint sized midget by a Padawan. The other lived a long and full life with all his body intact. Kenobi is superior and has the superior wins on his ledger. It's not close really. If you want to compare victories.. this will be very clear and you know it.

That's a hell of a non-sequitur.

If you're looking to troll, you should keep your sights on quan.

Originally posted by Oneness
Vader paced himself, he was still a more skilled duelist. He made use of what he could, cybernetic limbs and heavy body armor allowed him to fight more like a Knight than a Samurai.

Vader was altogether more dangerous in combat. As for Force potential, Vader had the highest concentration of midi-chlorians per cell of anyone in the mythos. Even after Mustafar, he retained that concentration in what was left of his body, and all the powers developed as Anakin, and so he still had enough midichlorians in his body to potentially overpower the Emperor. He was a vergence in the Force, his son and daughter were merely freakishly powerful off-springs.

Let's examine the indications of Vader's remnant potential, he sensed the presence of his son when the Emperor could not, which was a sign in and of itself that he still could have easily surpassed the Emperor given motivation. As Vader his motivations were loathing, and the reunion with his offspring. Which showed, he had no loathing for his son and was caught off guard and his son got the better of him for a moment in RoTJ. His son also gave him incentive to surpass the Emperor's senses. The Emperor would never have sensed that Leia was Luke's sister. The Emperor wouldn't have known what happened to Kenobi upon vanishing, nor would he have later taught himself to become a Force ghost as Vader had apparently done so.

Furthermore, RoTJ Luke was RoTS Anakin's level in prowess, both of them seen developing the Force choke technique out of instinct. It shows Luke's progression was quicker than Anakin's, mostly because Yoda was a better instructor to Luke than Kenobi was to Anakin. Also, Luke's training would have been far more intense, culminated with Luke's greater clarity and ease of mind as well as his superior dedication to training. By the time he faced Vader on Bespin he would have been Episode II Anakin's equal in progression.

None of this is true though.... Lucas straight out tells us that Anakin doesn't have as strong a connection as he did before. He literally lost some of his concentration when his body parts were cut off. Lucas straight out says this and that he's only 80% of the emperor's power after happens. This is the no. 1 source of canon telling us Anakin isn't as connected nor is near his physical prime. He's slow and plodding. Yes, Vader had years of practice to improve his force powers.. He's better there. However, I'd say Anakin was the more Formidable foe.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's a hell of a non-sequitur.

If you're looking to troll, you should keep your sights on quan.

You turn me on more though.. Quan is short, ugly and looks like he ran into a wall face first. Your, well, taller and wear normal shoes.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You turn me on more though.. Quan is short, ugly and looks like he ran into a wall face first. Your, well, taller and wear normal shoes.

Well said.

But you must woo me first, my pet.

Anakin may've been a better swordsman but Vader was more formidable overall and if there were any way the two of them could actually fight each other in a battle in which anything is allowed my money would be on Vader.

This is why I never go to the Star Wars main section.

Originally posted by Star428
I don't agree with your opinion that Dooku had as good a shot as defeating Yoda as Mace did defeating Sidious because it sure looked to me like Mace actually beat Sidious whereas Dooku only fought Yoda briefly and then ran away just as Yoda was getting warmed-up. If that fight had gone on much longer Yoda would've shown that he was clearly >>>>> Dooku. Dooku tucked tail and ran away though because he knew he would eventually lose. Technically speaking, fleeing the way he did counts as a loss anyway, imo.

Let us not forget that a minutely amped Dooku actually managed to wound Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, and that Sidious had spent much of his power mowing down three other masters asap style very early in their duel.

Originally posted by Star428
Also, Anakin clearly bested him by himself in RotS. Dooku hardly stood toe to toe with physically dominating opponents such as Oppress, he kept some range, and did melee and conserved quite a bit of energy. His tactics were more seasoned than Kenobi's and more so Anakin's, and his mastery of the Force was still greater, though his strength perhaps had been momentarily surpassed by Anakin. There's no reason Dooku wouldn't have been able to pull a win like Kenobi did, if he'd known what Anakin was about to hit him with. Arrogance got the better of the Count in that duel I'm afraid.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
None of this is true though.... Lucas straight out tells us that Anakin doesn't have as strong a connection as he did before. He literally lost some of his concentration when his body parts were cut off. Lucas straight out says this and that he's only 80% of the emperor's power after happens. This is the no. 1 source of canon telling us Anakin isn't as connected nor is near his physical prime. He's slow and plodding. Yes, Vader had years of practice to improve his force powers.. He's better there. However, I'd say Anakin was the more Formidable foe.

Sidious pondered that a duel with Vader would be challenging for him in The Rise of Darth Vader; and once Vader had adjusted to his transformation he was described as incredibly fast and lethal. Perhaps not very maneuverable or agile, but he'd gained physical power and durability since his transformation. A knight is less maneuverable than a Samurai, yet Knights are understood to have an advantage over the Samurai due to superior armor.

As for potential, we've been through that, Sidious also believed that Vader still had the power to overthrow him. Vader's issue with achieving his potential in all guises of the Force was in that he couldn't fully embrace the Force, moreover, the Dark Side of the Force.

like i said, its right there in the wookieepedia, Dooku was equal with Windu at the very least, Anakin beat Dooku when he tapped into the dark side, once he was christened Vader he had dark side in spades, he would've cut Windu down for sure.

As for cyborg Vader, its been stated in many sources that his Force potential was cut in half, so he may have become a better swordsman but his Force abilities weren't up to snuff to take on his human self, much less the Emperor

Vader may've lost a lot of midichlorians when he was chopped-up but by the time of RotJ he had greatly increased his knowledge of the force and was still much more powerful overall, imo, than he was when he was Anakin and/or pre-machine Vader because the Anakin in RotS had not yet reached his full potential. Also, in RotJ, he was much more wise and not so impulsive like he was when he was just a boy in RotS and wouldn't make such a stupid move like what he did against Obi-Wan which caused him to lose. People seem to overlook for some reason the fact that how wise a person is combat-wise plays a huge part in how formidable that person is. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan because of his stupidity and that's the same reason that Maul lost to Obi-Wan as well. Everybody keeps going on and on about "power" and/or "skill" as if they are the only things that indicates how formidable a person is. LOL. They don't seem to realize how much battle wits are just as important as the other two. I'm sorry but you guys can think whatever you like but Vader>Anakin in overall formidability, imo, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

Originally posted by Oneness
Let us not forget that a minutely amped Dooku actually managed to wound Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, and that Sidious had spent much of his power mowing down three other masters asap style very early in their duel.

Dooku hardly stood toe to toe with physically dominating opponents such as Oppress, he kept some range, and did melee and conserved quite a bit of energy. His tactics were more seasoned than Kenobi's and more so Anakin's, and his mastery of the Force was still greater, though his strength perhaps had been momentarily surpassed by Anakin. There's no reason Dooku wouldn't have been able to pull a win like Kenobi did, if he'd known what Anakin was about to hit him with. Arrogance got the better of the Count in that duel I'm afraid.



Sidious pondered that a duel with Vader would be challenging for him in The Rise of Darth Vader; and once Vader had adjusted to his transformation he was described as incredibly fast and lethal. Perhaps not very maneuverable or agile, but he'd gained physical power and durability since his transformation. A knight is less maneuverable than a Samurai, yet Knights are understood to have an advantage over the Samurai due to superior armor.

As for potential, we've been through that, Sidious also believed that Vader still had the power to overthrow him. Vader's issue with achieving his potential in all guises of the Force was in that he couldn't fully embrace the Force, moreover, the Dark Side of the Force.

Look Lucas confirms that Anakin/Vader can only ever reach 80% of Sidious power. He lost so much Mids that he was never the same again. Obviously he had a lot to begin with so he's still powerful but he was never the same again and that's the point. No way do I place Vader above Anakin besides force power and knowledge. Your opinion on how stronger or powerful he is doesn't matter... we have the creator saying he wasn't the same or as powerful.

Originally posted by Star428
Vader may've lost a lot of midichlorians when he was chopped-up but by the time of RotJ he had greatly increased his knowledge of the force and was still much more powerful overall, imo, than he was when he was Anakin and/or pre-machine Vader because the Anakin in RotS had not yet reached his full potential. Also, in RotJ, he was much more wise and not so impulsive like he was when he was just a boy in RotS and wouldn't make such a stupid move like what he did against Obi-Wan which caused him to lose. People seem to overlook for some reason the fact that how wise a person is combat-wise plays a huge part in how formidable that person is. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan because of his stupidity and that's the same reason that Maul lost to Obi-Wan as well. Everybody keeps going on and on about "power" and/or "skill" as if they are the only things that indicates how formidable a person is. LOL. They don't seem to realize how much battle wits are just as important as the other two. I'm sorry but you guys can think whatever you like but Vader>Anakin in overall formidability, imo, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

That's all fine and dandy but he wasn't as powerful and it's really that simple. He had just mastered the force more... maybe more cool headed or whatever. Great. But his force potential and connection was limited after he was cut in half.. along with agility speed reflexes etc etc.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's all fine and dandy but he wasn't as powerful and it's really that simple. He had just mastered the force more... maybe more cool headed or whatever. Great. But his force potential and connection was limited after he was cut in half.. along with agility speed reflexes etc etc. He'd clearly grown in power since RoTS.

The only thing holding him back from surpassing the Emperor as a cyborg was his inability to embrace the dark side.

He lost no power when he became a cyborg, and he still had more midi-chlorians than Yoda and was clearly sitting on a vast untapped potential still.

As I said before, he possessed more midi-chlorians per cell. The human body has trillions of cells. Have a thousand more per, yields exponential results.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Look Lucas confirms that Anakin/Vader can only ever reach 80% of Sidious power. He lost so much Mids that he was never the same again. Obviously he had a lot to begin with so he's still powerful but he was never the same again and that's the point. No way do I place Vader above Anakin besides force power and knowledge. Your opinion on how stronger or powerful he is doesn't matter... we have the creator saying he wasn't the same or as powerful. No, Lucas said "He's about 80% of the Emperor".

Not, "He can't be more than 80% of the Emperor".

In a canon novel called RoDV it is stated by the Emperor himself that Vader could still surpass him. That's more than the Emperor could say for Starkiller, even, who could only ever be his "equal".

Originally posted by relentless1
like i said, its right there in the wookieepedia, Dooku was equal with Windu at the very least, Anakin beat Dooku when he tapped into the dark side, once he was christened Vader he had dark side in spades, he would've cut Windu down for sure.

As for cyborg Vader, its been stated in many sources that his Force potential was cut in half, so he may have become a better swordsman but his Force abilities weren't up to snuff to take on his human self, much less the Emperor Lucas said he would have been twice as powerful as the Emperor. So if it were stated that his potential was "cut in half" (even though he never lost half of his body mass) he'd still be able to rival the Emperor.

Actually the quote was from the Rise of Darth Vader, it was the "Like a painter gone blind" quote. Never said anything about losing half of his potential.

Okay so you're just going to put your fingers in your ears and go no no no I'm not listening So there is really no point in discussing anything further. YOUR OPINOIN on the matter doesn't matter one bit. In fact, it's the lowest form of canon. On the contrary the highest form of canon says Vader isn't as powerful and can now only reach 80% of the emperor's power. Doesn't get more cut and dry than that. Your noticing him improving his force powers doesn't change anything one bit. I even said his increased his force powers over time. That's what happens as you get more practice and seasoned. That doesn't mean he had the same potential or was as powerful. You can choose to believe what you want though, no skin off my back.

Originally posted by Oneness
No, Lucas said "He's about 80% of the Emperor".

Not, "He can't be more than 80% of the Emperor".

In a canon novel called RoDV it is stated by the Emperor himself that Vader could still surpass him. That's more than the Emperor could say for Starkiller, even, who could only ever be his "equal".

You can believe what you want... the fact of the matter is Lucas CONFIRMS Vader isn't what he could've become and CONFIRMS vader LOST.. we know what lost means right? LOST valuable Mids when he was cut in half. No amount of not uh or no I don't want listen will change that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't mean he had the same potential or was as powerful. He didn't have the same potential. However, he still never achieved the potential that remained. He became more powerful. He couldn't have become weaker because, as Qui-Gon said, the Force and midi-chlorians are not mutually exclusive.