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A for real debate

Who wins who dies?

Zannah

In b4 Carthage's bias bs

Ommin

Zannah.

Has Zannah actually got better feats than stomping two masterful users of Battle Meditation decisively, and then binding one of them with sorcery casually for days?

Wanking Ommin wanks nadd, so keep it up ILS!

I'm not wanking anything, lol

Zannah can rather easily bull through his sorcery and kill him like Ulic did.

Zannah. TBH he did that to Master Arca who out of all of the Jedi was hit the hardest from the Dark-side energies on Onderon, he was disorienting at points and Ommin attacked him when the guy was least expecting it too.

Ommin was the reason Onderon was permeated with Dark Side energy, though. Even if his two attacks on Arca were unexpected, that doesn't change the fact he kept a spell over him effortlessly for days while carrying out other attacks and concentrating dark energy over a group of Jedi which left them ill and fatigued.

And there's no denying the Nomi Sunrider feat. He decisively overwhelmed her and blocked her from using Battle Meditation entirely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah can rather easily bull through his sorcery and kill him like Ulic did. Based on what?

Ulic would kill anyone from Banes era including Bane and Zannah

Apprentice Ulic?

Originally posted by ILS
Based on what?

Based on being powerful as shit, a phenomenally talented sorceress (who happens to have the exact same source of knowledge as Ommin so she probably knows how to counter all his shit) and fast enough to close the gap quickly and cut him down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Based on being powerful as shit, a phenomenally talented sorceress (who happens to have the exact same source of knowledge as Ommin so she probably knows how to counter all his shit) and fast enough to close the gap quickly and cut him down. I don't deal in descriptions as simple as "powerful as shit", or probably's.

Speed probably won't factor in unless they're extremely close. Ommin was fast enough to grab Arca before he could react, which is a decent enough speed feat to suggest that he can operate his powers with a fair amount of speed.

Can Zannah do dis?

Huh, wonder if that means Ommin is around the same level of power as Nadd.

Originally posted by ILS
I don't deal in descriptions as simple as "powerful as shit", or probably's.

Speed probably won't factor in unless they're extremely close. Ommin was fast enough to grab Arca before he could react, which is a decent enough speed feat to suggest that he can operate his powers with a fair amount of speed.

Deal with it? Zannah is immensely powerful. Bane himself stated that her power might already exceed his own in DoE. You know, the freaking Sith'ari? Not to mention how she blocked the Force Storm generated by dozens/scores of Sith Lords as a child and how her spells were powerful enough to effect peoples minds a decade after she cast them just through proximity to where she cast them. And obviously I can't exactly say for certain she knows how to counter all his spells, but it is a fact that she has access to Nadd's holocron as well as numerous other sources of knowledge on sorcery. So it's basically guaranteed that her knowledge exceeds his and she can counter his attacks.

Ommin was still blitzed by Ulic. He's heavily vulnerable due to his debilitated state. Someone like Zannah, who has casually dodged lightning, watch it move past her then observe the wall/explosives its going to hit and jump clear before the explosion, shouldn't have an issue with cutting him down after getting close.

Originally posted by ILS
Can Zannah do dis?

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that just about any decent Force user could conquer a planet. Ventress did, despite only having padawan level Jedi training.

This sounds like... embellishment.
She had Nadd's holocron? That's cute. Ommin could summon Nadd's spirit at will and was directly tutored in sorcery by him.
False, he actually mounted an attack on Ulic as well as all of the other Jedi (restraining them collectively) before Ulic could reach him. It was Ulic's own power that allowed him to get close to Ommin, not speed.
Any chance I could see Zannah perceiving and casually dodging lightning? This is something I haven't ever heard of her doing in debates.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that just about any decent Force user could conquer a planet. Ventress did, despite only having padawan level Jedi training. ...........

You mean to tell me any random Force User can dominate an entire city with the dark side? Next joke.

Originally posted by ILS
This sounds like... embellishment.

Yeah, I think it was more like hundreds of Sith Lords now that I think about it.

Originally posted by ILS
She had Nadd's holocron? That's cute. Ommin could summon Nadd's spirit at will and was directly tutored in sorcery by him.

I know. That doesn't exactly mean anything. I mean, a holocron's AI is basically the same as the guy tutoring you directly. As I said, they have access to the same info, so she probably knows the counters to all his shit. The difference is that she also has knowledge from other sources as well, like Belia Darzu and Revan.

Originally posted by ILS
False, he actually mounted an attack on Ulic as well as all of the other Jedi (restraining them collectively) before Ulic could reach him. It was Ulic's own power that allowed him to get close to Ommin, not speed.

My point is the same. Zannah tanks his shit and kills him.

Originally posted by ILS
Any chance I could see Zannah perceiving and casually dodging lightning? This is something I haven't ever heard of her doing in debates.

"As she gathered herself to charge, Bane fired off another bolt of lightning. She ducked to the side and it whizzed past her ear, striking the wall and sending up a shower of dust and stone flecks.

Despite missing her the first time, Bane followed it up with another blast on the exact same trajectory. Turning her head to follow the course of the misguided bolt, Zannah saw where the first had hit the wall. The stone had been disintegrated in a fist-sized hole, revealing something that looked like bright red plastic beneath it.

She recognized it as the casing of a demolition charge just in time to throw herself backward, using the Force to shield herself from the worst of the explosion. She was thrown clear as the entire wall blew out, sending huge chunks of stone spewing into the passage. The ceiling was shredded, tearing loose massive blocks that tumbled to the ground."

Originally posted by ILS
...........

You mean to tell me any random Force User can dominate an entire city with the dark side? Next joke.

No, conquer a planet.

A watered down version of Zannahs spells put a man in a coma for three days, and those three days were spent using all his will power to keep his mind from being ripped apart.

Unfortunately this is still just wishful thinking on your part. Just because they share the same teacher (loosely speaking) doesn't mean she can instantly counter anything he does, especially given he has better feats of power, like absorbing the sensations of millions of beings simultaneously, and then inciting hatred across the entirety of Onderon.


-Tales of the Jedi Companion

But Zannah put a guy in a coma for three days!!

Originally posted by carthage
But Zannah put a guy in a coma for three days!! I think you said that as sarcasm but its a good point

Originally posted by ILS
Unfortunately this is still just wishful thinking on your part. Just because they share the same teacher (loosely speaking) doesn't mean she can instantly counter anything he does, especially given he has better feats of power, like absorbing the sensations of millions of beings simultaneously, and then inciting hatred across the entirety of Onderon.


-Tales of the Jedi Companion

I said she'd know how to counter all his spells because of their shared source, not that she'd instantly counter them because of it. She would though.

I don't see that as a big deal, and certainly not proof that Ommin is more powerful than Zannah. Unless he's going to absorb her sensations it doesn't really help him. Even if he is more powerful than her (lol) its not to the extent that he can stop her from running up to him and cutting his head off.

Also Zannah drove someone so insane that they ripped their own eyes out, with a flick of her fingers!

Bantha/Neph- If you think Zannah's showings are even remotely close to dominating and inciting hatred in millions of beings, while binding Arca Jeth (who can alter entire armies with battle meditation), while concentrating waves of energy on a group of Jedi for months that drains their life force, while casting various spells to varying effects (zapping a Jedi's Force shields, inciting illness in people) while still carrying out assaults on beings as powerful as Nomi Sunrider, then we're probably at an impasse.

Ommin was more or less doing all of that at the same time until Ulic stopped him.

And Zannah put the Sith'ari on his knees and damn near killed him. So if you think Ommin could match that feat then, yes , I guess we are at an impasse

Originally posted by ILS
Bantha/Neph- If you think Zannah's showings are even remotely close to dominating and inciting hatred in millions of beings, while binding Arca Jeth (who can alter entire armies with battle meditation), while concentrating waves of energy on a group of Jedi for months that drains their life force, while casting various spells to varying effects (zapping a Jedi's Force shields, inciting illness in people) while still carrying out assaults on beings as powerful as Nomi Sunrider, then we're probably at an impasse.

Ommin was more or less doing all of that at the same time until Ulic stopped him.
Neither did Kun, but I doubt people would give Ommin the win in a fight with Kun.

Originally posted by ILS
Bantha/Neph- If you think Zannah's showings are even remotely close to dominating and inciting hatred in millions of beings, while binding Arca Jeth (who can alter entire armies with battle meditation), while concentrating waves of energy on a group of Jedi for months that drains their life force, while casting various spells to varying effects (zapping a Jedi's Force shields, inciting illness in people) while still carrying out assaults on beings as powerful as Nomi Sunrider, then we're probably at an impasse.

Ommin was more or less doing all of that at the same time until Ulic stopped him.

That's happening at the same time? That sounds like.... embellishment. I thought all that shit with Nadd unlocking his potential occurred before the events of the comics. Anyway, he isn't dominating and inspiring hatred in millions. What it means by him dominating Onderon with the dark side isn't explicitly said to be him mentally dominating them, you're just assuming that. And he incited hatred in a few pockets out of millions. All he did was expand his consciousness to feel all those people and then mentally influence a few of them. It seems very similar to Battle Meditiation to me and isn't representative of something he could do in combat.

And I see nothing from Ulic at that stage that makes me think he'd be able to do something Zannah could not.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Neither did Kun, but I doubt people would give Ommin the win in a fight with Kun. Because Kun has sufficient accolades to put him above Ommin.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's happening at the same time? That sounds like.... embellishment. I thought all that shit with Nadd unlocking his potential occurred before the events of the comics. Anyway, he isn't dominating and inspiring hatred in millions. What it means by him dominating Onderon with the dark side isn't explicitly said to be him mentally dominating them, you're just assuming that. And he incited hatred in a few pockets out of millions. All he did was expand his consciousness to feel all those people and then mentally influence a few of them. It seems very similar to Battle Meditiation to me and isn't representative of something he could do in combat.

And I see nothing from Ulic at that stage that makes me think he'd be able to do something Zannah could not. The unlocking his potential bit happened before the comics, accidentally referenced that.

And yeah, my phrasing was way off there. But consider this- pinpricks of evil (the people of Onderon), "erupted randomly" across the entire city, and were "scattered across Onderon". Even if we are only talking about the minority of Onderon being affected by Ommin's sorcery, that's still the minority of millions of beings being affected. The phrasing "scattered across" suggests to me that in every part of the city there was small collective of people being affected.

If I was to be generous and say Onderon's "millions" of people added up to just 2 million total, and then assumed that the minority affected was just something like 10%, that would still be 200,000 people having hatred incited in them. That's out of Zannah's paygrade. Shit, I'll be even more generous and say half that and it's still beyond her ability to influence.

As for Ulic, his niche is having high Force defences, and he'd go on to be one of the most powerful Dark Lords of his time, so it's not really reliable to translate his resistance showings over to Zannah. Especially considering Zannah isn't dealing with an Ommin who is in the middle of restraining other Jedi and casting other spells, like Ulic was at the time.

Zannah trips on a grave and dies. The energies emitted from the fall kills Ommin's frail body.

Originally posted by ILS
The unlocking his potential bit happened before the comics, accidentally referenced that.

And yeah, my phrasing was way off there. But consider this- pinpricks of evil (the people of Onderon), "erupted randomly" across the entire city, and were "scattered across Onderon". Even if we are only talking about the minority of Onderon being affected by Ommin's sorcery, that's still the minority of millions of beings being affected. The phrasing "scattered across" suggests to me that in every part of the city there was small collective of people being affected.

If I was to be generous and say Onderon's "millions" of people added up to just 2 million total, and then assumed that the minority affected was just something like 10%, that would still be 200,000 people having hatred incited in them. That's out of Zannah's paygrade. Shit, I'll be even more generous and say half that and it's still beyond her ability to influence.

As for Ulic, his niche is having high Force defences, and he'd go on to be one of the most powerful Dark Lords of his time, so it's not really reliable to translate his resistance showings over to Zannah. Especially considering Zannah isn't dealing with an Ommin who is in the middle of restraining other Jedi and casting other spells, like Ulic was at the time.

10% is seriously high for pinpricks.

And as I said, that kind of feat doesn't translate into power. Kaan could effect armies of thousands too, as well as hundreds of Sith Lords and Bane was laughably above him even as of PoD and... literally had to stop himself from laughing in the mans face when he tried to influence him. Zannah brought Bane to his knee's and directly overpowered his will. Not to mention that Ulic at that time couldn't hope to do anything close to that and look at how he fared.

Theres no indication that Ommin actually had to perform all that shit all at the same time. These are spells we're talking about here. He could just perform a ritual and set it up so he doesn't need to consciously do all that. In fact I'm pretty sure thats what happened since you can't assault Jedi for months in that manner since you need to sleep. Sorcery works like that. That Zannah spell I mentioned was a spell of concealment that was still active a decade after she'd cast it. I doubt she had to continue inputting energy and concentration on that shit. Plus Palpatines Byss ritual didn't need him doing anything after he'd set it up.

Except Zannah's Force defenses are superior to Ulic's even at his peak, let alone well before it. And she'd go on to become one of the most powerful Sith Lords of ALL time. Ommin is beneath her by a ways.

Zannah isnt among the most powerful Sith of all time lmao. The quote reads Malak, Krayt, Bane, Kun, and Sidious- Zannah is nowhere in that list

Originally posted by carthage
Zannah isnt among the most powerful Sith of all time lmao. The quote reads Malak, Krayt, Bane, Kun, and Sidious- Zannah is nowhere in that list

And do you take stock in such a statement?

Lol the quote you posted for Zannah was her tanking a small explosion, Ulic deflected blaster bolts that were destroying portions of Republic ships. There is no comparison, Ulic has better force defense feats than Zannah in her prime. He is also more skilled as a duelist than either Bane or Zannah

Originally posted by carthage
Zannah isnt among the most powerful Sith of all time lmao. The quote reads Malak, Krayt, Bane, Kun, and Sidious- Zannah is nowhere in that list

Zannah is as powerful as Bane as of DoE, so she obviously qualifies.

Originally posted by carthage
Lol the quote you posted for Zannah was her tanking a small explosion, Ulic deflected blaster bolts that were destroying portions of Republic ships. There is no comparison, Ulic has better force defense feats than Zannah in her prime. He is also more skilled as a duelist than either Bane or Zannah of course uliq couldn't make people rip their eyes out with a flick of his fingers or casually put Jedi into comas soooooo he can keep tanking those explosions

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah is as powerful as Bane as of DoE, so she obviously qualifies.

She beat him via nexus and circumstance, and she has no telekinetic or dueling feats to compare to him beating two trainees. She would never have beaten him if they fought on neutral ground. And no all of the Sith on that list (besides Bane) are miles ahead of her in terms of skill, power, dueling feats, and other respective showings.

Originally posted by carthage
She beat him via nexus and circumstance, and she has no telekinetic or dueling feats to compare to him beating two trainees. She would never have beaten him if they fought on neutral ground. And no all of the Sith on that list (besides Bane) are miles ahead of her in terms of skill, power, dueling feats, and other respective showings.

Bane himself says that her power may well exceed his own at one point in the book.

Which is all well and good except that his TK feats exceed her, he is faster, a (somewhat)better duelist, and has better showings of skill. Karpashyn didn't give anyone any reason to believe she is better, its Bane's own opinion that she got stronger it isn't confirmed by her feats.

There's no significant gap between their TK as shown in their fights and that she was able to punt him into a wall further suggests parity in that area. And he showed no greater speed than her in their fight. If he's a better duelist and more skilled that's besides the point of who's more powerful. Bane's opinion is informed through extensively dueling her and measuring her ability, it's pretty clear that she is at least his equal in power as of that time.