Asajj Ventress/Quinlan Vos vs. Darth Maul (SOD)

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carthage
Battle takes place in the Jungles of Dxun

AncientPower
Team stomps.

DARTH POWER
Team gets stomped.

|King Joker|
Team, lol.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Team gets stomped. beaten solidly.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ



^ That's fair.

Emperordmb
Maul takes this one.

ILS
It's not a stomp either way, but the team definitely wins a majority. Maul can take something like three wins.

I'm kind of baffled at the preconceived notions people have about Ventress and RotJ Luke. They barely get the respect they deserve on here.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
It's not a stomp either way, but the team definitely wins a majority. Maul can take something like three wins.

I'm kind of baffled at the preconceived notions people have about Ventress and RotJ Luke. They barely get the respect they deserve on here. thumb up

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ILS
It's not a stomp either way, but the team definitely wins a majority. Maul can take something like three wins.

I'm kind of baffled at the preconceived notions people have about Ventress and RotJ Luke. They barely get the respect they deserve on here.


I actually have a very high opinion of Ventress putting her above the vast majority of Council Members and approx on par with Opress (even though he beat her when they fought).

But she's simply not on the same level as SOD Maul. Not at all.


As for ROTJ Luke, it's not really that baffling. It's Lucas who first put it out there in the DVD commentary for ROTJ, that Luke wasn't a match for Vader yet, and that his training was in fact incomplete.

Then there's the opinion of Filoni, a creator of the 2nd highest level of canon, whose lived and breathed SW first hand through Lucas for the past several years, who actually goes to the extreme of thinking that any PT Council member would trash ROTJ Luke.

So given all that, whether you agree or not, you can't honestly blame anyone for putting ROTJ Luke below the likes of Maul/Vader/Dooku when Lucas has pretty much flat out said ROTJ Vader > ROTJ Luke.

And I don't even see the need to place ROTJ Luke so high, not even for the greatest Luke fans given we all know he's destined to become the most powerful Jedi ever Post-ROTJ.

ILS
Quotes, DP?

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
It's not a stomp either way

thumb up

Ventress did quite well against Maul when they fought, kicking him around in both exchanges compared to him getting nothing on her. I'd suggest that Quinlan is basically superfluous but I think he may annoy Maul enough for them to contend with him.

ILS
Why do you think so lowly of Vos, Neph?

Trocity
Cuz he sucks.





jk. I'm siding Maul for a majority here, though.

Nephthys
He got stomped by Kolar and Cad Bane. He's just not that good or good enough to compete with combatants above Council-level like Ventress and Maul.

ILS
TCW Vos obviously doesn't hold a candle to how he's been shown in the comics, I thought people knew that.

Getting stomped by Kolar isn't a detriment to Vos - it's a feat for Kolar. Outside of that instance Vos has decent dueling feats, and after he improved enough to contend with Sora Bulq (reaching his prime) he should be enough to at least challenge Maul as much as Qui-Gon Jinn did.

Nephthys
Sure it's a feat for Kolar. But Kolar is still firmly below Ventress and Maul. So either would likely stomp him regardless of his supposed improvement. Which I've heard isn't actually that much, and that "contending with Sora Bulq" translated into "got stomped by Sora Bulq and caught him off-guard".

ILS
le sigh*

1. Kolar stomping Vos puts him close to Maul or Ventress.

2. He contended with Bulq in the dueling portion of their fight, but got thrown around with TK which is no detriment to his skill. Catching him off-guard has no bearing on the point of the fight where Vos did well.

And Vos has other feats of dueling skill outside of the Bulq fight to suggest he's better than a non-factor. I'm probably arguing with the wrong person, though. Doesn't seem like you're going to change your view on him any time soon.

Nephthys
1. But below. And firmly below with the Force.

2. Not getting stomped by Bulq doesn't imply he's equal to him or that he was doing well. I saw the fight and he seemed on the defensive the whole time.

And he also has feats like getting stomped by Cad Bane that suggests he's out of his league. However, if you'll look at what I actually said, I actually said he wouldn't be a non-factor and may be just enough to make the team a competitive force. Also you seem to give up on debating me super easily.

ILS
1. Yes, slightly below. The Force has no bearing on his dueling outside of perhaps a slight effect on his general clairvoyance and physical stats.

2.What implies he did well is the fact he did well. They duel on-panel for a while and then they continue to duel off-panel. Bulq is winning, but he isn't outright stomping Vos otherwise Vos would have been dead before the duel had gone on for several minutes.

If you really think TCW Vos has any bearing on his main source material - Republic comics - then we have nothing else to talk about. I mean come the **** on, people, I could cite any number of feats to suggest that Cad Bane would be a smear on the pavement against comics Vos.

3. I stop debating you because of how.... different... your views are to mine in general. I don't discuss stuff with people I don't make progress with, unfortunately, and you're always extremely set in your ways, so I leave you to it.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ILS
Quotes, DP?


I've posted them many times in the past, but will have to wait until I get home now to quote the ROTJ commentary one exactly how it's said.

But I've told you the source itself as evidence. The exact scene in the commentary is when Luke visits Yoda on Dagobah.

I'm pretty surprised you never looked up Lucas's thoughts on this considering how much you complain about people apparently "lowballing" Rotj Luke.

In the meantime here's Filoni's opinion:

"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure."


http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
1. Yes, slightly below. The Force has no bearing on his dueling outside of perhaps a slight effect on his general clairvoyance and physical stats.

2.What implies he did well is the fact he did well. They duel on-panel for a while and then they continue to duel off-panel. Bulq is winning, but he isn't outright stomping Vos otherwise Vos would have been dead before the duel had gone on for several minutes.

If you really think TCW Vos has any bearing on his main source material - Republic comics - then we have nothing else to talk about. I mean come the **** on, people, I could cite any number of feats to suggest that Cad Bane would be a smear on the pavement against comics Vos.

3. I stop debating you because of how.... different... your views are to mine in general. I don't discuss stuff with people I don't make progress with, unfortunately, and you're always extremely set in your ways, so I leave you to it.

1. This isn't just a lightsaber duel though. Maul can pwn Vos rather easily with the Force.

2. Surviving isn't really the same as doing well. I just don't see how Vos not getting stomped by Bulq suggests he can contend in a fight against the likes of Ventress or Maul.

Dude, you can't just ignore that showing. It happened, and it happened in a higher level of canon than Vos' other feats to boot.

3. I find that very intolerant and sad. You have made me sad this day, my friend.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
thumb up

Ventress did quite well against Maul when they fought, kicking him around in both exchanges compared to him getting nothing on her.


Which hardly means much considering Maul had just been revived. We know outright he grew massively more powerful by the very next episode, let alone by SOD.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys


Dude, you can't just ignore that showing. It happened, and it happened in a higher level of canon than Vos' other feats to boot.



ILS generally doesn't count TCW as evidence, even when discussing some CW versions of characters like SOD Maul here.

ILS
Not necessarily. Vos is more powerful than Kenobi, who is the only person Maul has wrecked with the Force. He could throw Vos around from time to time, sure, but Vos is highly durable in any case. I'm just saying, he isn't dead weight.
Peering Bulq is enough to suggest that he wouldn't be stomped by either, considering either wouldn't stomp Bulq. And like I said, his fight against the Morgukai duo, which puts him above Aayla, and his fight against Kadrian Sey/Tol Skorr, on a DS nexus, before his prime and an improvement in saber dueling after training with Dooku, should make him good enough to contend with Maul at least.

I can happily ignore that showing, because it's horseshit. Vos' entire character development took place during the Republic comics. I'm not throwing all of that out the window because some retarded TCW writer thought it'd be great for the kiddies to see Vos getting tripped up for the lulz.

You can look at it that way, or you can just say that it's a feat for Cad Bane, and move on. I don't really care, either way.

And let's face it, if Bane appeared in canon and got stomped by a random bounty hunter, and carthage used it against you in a debate, you would lose your shit utterly and completely because your favourite character's best showings are being overruled by one retarded fight from an animation.

I prefer to debate with people who look at feats and characters with a similar approach to my own. Having said that I will try to debate you, but forgive me if I get frustrated from going in circles.

ILS
DP- Filoni has once again shown a complete lack of knowledge on Luke, lol.

Luke is as good as Vader as a duelist because of his Force potential. Experience level is of no consequence to him. This has been documented repeatedly over the years, and I'm once again not throwing it out the window for some terrible opinion coming from the joker who unfortunately got free reign to shit on character history with his "opinions", which are poorly informed to begin with.

Shit I'm on fire today. I might go buy a copy of TCW dvd and snap it in half for no reason.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which hardly means much considering Maul had just been revived. We know outright he grew massively more powerful by the very next episode, let alone by SOD.

He gets massively more powerful....... and then performs worse against Kenobi than he did before?

Okaaaaaay......

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
He gets massively more powerful....... and then performs worse against Kenobi than he did before?

Okaaaaaay...... He became more powerful telekinetically, not in terms of dueling skill. Kenobi improved in terms of both. And Maul ragdolled Kenobi with the Force upon returning, something he couldn't do during TPM.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
He gets massively more powerful....... and then performs worse against Kenobi than he did before?

Okaaaaaay......


It was Kenobi who performed better, not Maul who performed worse.

Although Maul's size did restrict his own mobility on that Cave.

In any case SOD Maul is Peak Maul.

carthage
Bane got his ass kicked by mercenaries and nearly died and got exhausted fighting Sithspawn lmao

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
thumb up

Ventress did quite well against Maul when they fought, kicking him around in both exchanges compared to him getting nothing on her. I'd suggest that Quinlan is basically superfluous but I think he may annoy Maul enough for them to contend with him.

Wait...when did Maul and Ventress fight?

Nephthys
Revenge. Obi-Wan and Ventress switch opponents twice and they fight briefly.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ILS
DP- Filoni has once again shown a complete lack of knowledge on Luke, lol.

Luke is as good as Vader as a duelist because of his Force potential. Experience level is of no consequence to him. This has been documented repeatedly over the years, and I'm once again not throwing it out the window for some terrible opinion coming from the joker who unfortunately got free reign to shit on character history with his "opinions", which are poorly informed to begin with.

Shit I'm on fire today. I might go buy a copy of TCW dvd and snap it in half for no reason.


Does Lucas know nothing about Luke as well?

According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary. Scene where Luke visits Yoda.


Now of course Lucas doesn't differentiate between Sabers, Force and All-Out. So you could still argue Luke matched Vader in Sabers but Vader held back with his Tk.

But as far as an All-Out is concerned, Lucas has made it quite clear that Luke's training was too Limited for him to truly be a match for Vader at this point.

ILS
That actually sounds like a description of the ESB fight.

"In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father"

Wasn't that what happened in the ESB fight?

"He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

Isn't this referring to when Luke doesn't finish his training with Yoda and goes off to fight Vader in order to save Leia ect?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ILS
That actually sounds like a description of the ESB fight.

"In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father"

Wasn't that what happened in the ESB fight?

"He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

Isn't this referring to when Luke doesn't finish his training with Yoda and goes off to fight Vader in order to save Leia ect?


No, it's in the "Return of the Jedi" commentary in the scene where Luke visits Yoda. In fact the first line is "In coming back to see Yoda."

I don't just hate on Luke for the sake of it. Luke's one of my favorite characters. But Lucas has made that pretty clear there. I think the confusion comes because Lucas has kind of revamped things since the Prequels. It seems his Original intention was to have Luke being a match Vader, but then he established this idea in the prequels of needing full on training for years with a Master.

ILS
The thing is though, Lucas doesn't explicitly state that Luke couldn't match Vader. He said that going into the fight, Luke wasn't equipped to defeat Vader.

But then, despite his inexperience, he did fight on even ground with Vader. And the reason for that, which has been explained already, is because of his inherent potential, which allowed him to nigh-instantaneously mirror Vader's form.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by ILS
--he didn't improve in dueling skill--

Shadow Conspiracy implies otherwise, bro. That said, his most major gains were force-related, yeah.

ILS
The only time it's been explicitly stated that his lightsaber skill increased was when Jason Fry confirmed to Marco that Maul increased "in general". I can subscribe to this in terms of Force power, yes, and Force augmentation because that is linked to power.

But lightsaber skill? He was out of practice in terrible conditions for a decade, and received no further training. There's no reason whatsoever for him to be more skilled, and he has no feats which are superior to comfortably outfighting Jinn and Kenobi simultaneously.

NewGuy01
He did receive further training, though, at the Sith Academy on Umbra. It's from a video game, but is also mentioned in Shadow Conspiracy.

NemeBro
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does Lucas know nothing about Luke as well?

According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary. Scene where Luke visits Yoda.


Now of course Lucas doesn't differentiate between Sabers, Force and All-Out. So you could still argue Luke matched Vader in Sabers but Vader held back with his Tk.

But as far as an All-Out is concerned, Lucas has made it quite clear that Luke's training was too Limited for him to truly be a match for Vader at this point. That quote establishes that the challenge isn't just physical, but emotional. Furthermore, at no point does Lucas say "Luke sucks more than Vader", he just says that facing him will be a difficult challenge in more than one way. It was. He still won. thumb up

ILS
Wait, wut? What video game?

ILS
And where was it said in Shadow Conspiracy? Haven't read that book in a while.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
He did receive further training, though, at the Sith Academy on Umbra. It's from a video game, but is also mentioned in Shadow Conspiracy.

Huh?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NemeBro
That quote establishes that the challenge isn't just physical, but emotional. Furthermore, at no point does Lucas say "Luke sucks more than Vader", he just says that facing him will be a difficult challenge in more than one way. It was. He still won. thumb up


Talk about selective reading.

Emperordmb
To put it bluntly, I don't think either of them are on Maul's level.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Shadow Conspiracy implies otherwise, bro. That said, his most major gains were force-related, yeah.

He improved in overall duelling prowess due to force enhanced speed and strength being enhanced by his general increase of power in the dark side.

But I still doubt his actual duelling "skill" surpassed his TPM self. But that's just me.

Btw when was his training on Umbara? Before or after "Revival". As in with his Large legs or the normal sized ones?

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