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Both prime without amps/nexus

Fight to the death

Shaak Ti kicks his ass lol

Bane wins without arms or legs.

Bane got stomped by Sith trainees, he couldn't beat even Shaak Ti unless he had an iv hooked up to his arm cycling darkside energy into his bloodstream. He is a nexus junkie

Originally posted by carthage
Bane got stomped by Sith trainees, he couldn't beat even Shaak Ti unless he had an iv hooked up to his arm cycling darkside energy into his bloodstream. He is a nexus junkie rofl

Bane stomps.

Not much of a comparison, one gets stomped by Sith trainees the other can at least handle hordes of magnaguards and nearly best Marek.

Ti only beat the MagnaGuard army because of their lack of training in dealing with anything that isn't a lightsaber. Which is evidenced by her struggling with one.

Its still a better feat than getting stomped by Sith trainees, and only beating them through PIS of "Discovering his true power" generic wank.

Carthage reaching untold levels of lowballing.

Bane has beaten no one by virtue of his own skill apart from Sirak, how is it lowballing to bring that up? What better feats do you have of him by his own skill, than Ti getting the best of Marek or beating hordes of Magnaguards?

Bane, obviously. Shaak should be able to put up a fight, but not much can be said for her past that.

How is Bane winning "obvious" even with Shaak being eviscerated as of lately? Why would he win when his dueling feats dont compare?

You're telling me Shaak Ti hasn't always been getting eviscerated? :/

She is wanked here but at least her showings are slightly better

Originally posted by carthage
How is Bane winning "obvious" even with Shaak being eviscerated as of lately? Why would he win when his dueling feats dont compare?

Because they kinda do.

Bane.

Bane stomps.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because they kinda do.

Who has Bane beaten by his own skill without orbalisks that exceeds Marek as a duelist?

up who wins now guys? The graceful, cunning Togruta or the Fodd'ari nexus junkie?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane stomps.

Can Bane solo 20 MagnaGuards or Galen Marek Neph?

Yes?

Ti lost to Marek though.

He only got lucky though! She had him on the ropes. Plus she was using planetary TP at the same time casually on a dark side Felucia. amirite?

Shaak Ti's performance was very impressive, but lets not take away from Marek for stopping her blade with TK which was pretty awesome. That's no fluke.

That's true. Now the question is can Bane TK Shaak Ti's power blows?

Why would Bane need to?

When Shaak Ti gets him on the backfoot in a duel like she did Galen.

Why would a 7 foot tall mountain of muscle who rips durasteel doors off their hinges be put on the backfoot by Shaak Ti's power blows?

Because she pressured someone with "perfect skills". I was joking with the power blows part though.

Actually it's "near-perfect skills".

Still, having near-perfect skills is a big deal.

He's driven back someone with more perfect skills before.

Wait, Bane was beating a duelist with near-perfect skills? Who?

Kas'im. He mastered all forms to utter perfection in all styles.

There's an "utter perfection" quote?

I can haz please?

Huh.

Not bad yo.

Bane isn't that good. Without his Orbalisk armor, he couldn't even penetrate Zannah's defense, even despite the fact, that she didn't specialize herself in lightsaber combat. Sarro, Raskta or Kas'Im were well above her.
His lightning also wasn't that strong, since he couldn't even push Zannah to her limits when he tried to overpower her with that. She was protecting herself with medium difficulty at best, as I remember.

Shaak Ti, on the other hand, is a bit overrated. With power scaling, her duel against Magnaguards means nothing (like Mace's actions on Dantooine for example).

Bane with hight difficulty, I would say.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's driven back someone with more perfect skills before.

Kas'im has no feats to compare with Shaak, she has the feat of knocking back Galen all Kas'im has is Bane's opinion.

Wait Ants quotes were opinions?

Those double standards, good god.

Not sure why people are so eager to side with Bane, he is slower, less skilled, and his power isn't giving him any advantages here. He might wear her down with physical strength, but if she can TK Starkiller she can send him flying at the very least.

Originally posted by Selenial
Wait Ants quotes were opinions?

Those double standards, good god.
I never said they weren't opinions, and hence why I don't put Kas'im that high up.
That being said, the "perfection" quote was said by Drew to be open to interpretation.

Regardless of the subjectivity of Banes statement, lets remember that there was a reason he was so highly regarded.He mastered every form in years and then spent decades perfecting all aspects of them. His skills are as close to legitimate perfection as it gets.

So did Cin Drallig.

Yeh, we all know in how high esteem you hold him.

I don't recall accolades detailing the depths of his mastery. Not to the same degree as Kas'im. And Kas'im wasn't old and weak like he was. Besides, no one doubts Dralligs skill is extremely high.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would a 7 foot tall mountain of muscle who rips durasteel doors off their hinges be put on the backfoot by Shaak Ti's power blows?
Bane is more like 6ft 6.5 in. Slightly shorter than Darth Vader.

Grievous is actually 7ft 1in, and probably stronger physically than Bane.



Anyways, I'm undecided atm. Leaning towards Shaak Ti.

He was also amped by the darkside energies of the stone prison when he ripped the durasteel door off its doors.


-Dynasty of Evil

Originally posted by carthage
He was also amped by the darkside energies of the stone prison when he ripped the durasteel door off its doors.
That's what I suspected.

Originally posted by Stigma
Bane is more like 6ft 6.5 in. Slightly shorter than Darth Vader.

Grievous is actually 7ft 1in, and probably stonger physically than Bane.



Anyways, I'm undecided atm. Leaning towards Shaak Ti.

Well, 2 meters still pretty tall. And Grievous punted Ti across the room so ok. Also I'm not convinced that a guy who lost a sabers lock to Ahsoka is stronger than Bane but also ok.

Originally posted by Stigma
That's what I suspected.

Bane was drugged and weakened by a force-suppressing cocktail.

Grievous doesn't need a nexus to pierce durasteel, break transparisteel, or smash an entire security console. He is plenty stronger than Bane.

Bane's only non nexus strength feat is breaking skulls. Also Vader has plenty of superior strength feats to Bane as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was drugged and weakened by a force-suppressing cocktail.
I see.

Still hard for me to properly judge the value of this feat. On the one hand being drugged, on the other getting amped. Hmm...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was drugged and weakened by a force-suppressing cocktail.

What proof in text do you have that Bane said that it weakened his connection to the force?

Originally posted by Stigma
I see.

Still hard for me to properly judge the value of this feat. On the one hand being drugged, on the other getting amped. Hmm...

I'll give you a push, the text specifically says that he's weaker than normal. It mentions nothing of an amp.

So you don't have any proof that the drugs affected Bane's ability to draw on the force? Ok. Being weakened wouldn't affect him either as he would have darkside energies to draw off of which is supported by the above mentioned quote.

A reminder than carthage is on ignore for me, so any failure to address his points on my behalf isn't a sign of inability but rather of simple disdain and utterly willful ignorance.

Originally posted by Stigma
I see.

Still hard for me to properly judge the value of this feat. On the one hand being drugged, on the other getting amped. Hmm...


You heard it right that there is no proof drugs/weariness affected him you might want to re-read Chapter 19 of DoE. Bane in spite of being "weakened" obviously had no problem lifting a durasteel door, killing guards with telekinesis, etc due to the darkside energies of the prison.

Ti should take this.

OP states no nexus, so he would not be able to draw on anything to increase his strength.

What about speed though, what has Ti done that compares to Bane?

Originally posted by Nephthys
A reminder than carthage is on ignore for me, so any failure to address his points on my behalf isn't a sign of inability but rather of simple disdain and utterly willful ignorance.

Oh, he proved that there was a Nexus.

Also, force suppressing cocktails? Lol. Nox managed to kill a lord under the effect of these when she was still an acolyte, they can't be that good.

Originally posted by Master_Galen
OP states no nexus, so he would not be able to draw on anything to increase his strength.

What about speed though, what has Ti done that compares to Bane?

We were talking about an example in the book.

Ti beating hordes of magnaguards, and beating Marek back (yes she was on a nexus), are more impressive feats than Bane who has only beaten Sirak (in a facility designed to focus DS energies of Korriban).

She is also faster (dodging omnidirectional blasterfire > dodging rain drops), and more skilled as per her showing with Marek who defeated (Kazdan Paratus/Rahm Kota) vs. Sirak who is featless.

Possibly more powerful in the force, they might be close in that area though. Bane's lightning isn't going to bother her barrier or tutaminus, and he isn't powerful enough to dominate her with TK

Originally posted by Selenial
Oh, he proved that there was a Nexus.

Also, force suppressing cocktails? Lol. Nox managed to kill a lord under the effect of these when she was still an acolyte, they can't be that good.

And? It's not a competition. All I'm saying is that the drugs off-set any supposed amp he was getting, making the feat valid. It's not as if Bane failed while under the effects, it just impeded his force use.

You'd have to have actual evidence for your claim though, and yeah obviously the drugs had no effect due to the energies Bane was able to feed off of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And? It's not a competition. All I'm saying is that the drugs off-set any supposed amp he was getting, making the feat valid. It's not as if Bane failed while under the effects, it just impeded his force use.

I know, all I'm saying is that you said there was no Nexus. He proved there was, you just didn't see because you had him on ignore.

Originally posted by Selenial
I know, all I'm saying is that you said there was no Nexus. He proved there was, you just didn't see because you had him on ignore.

That isn't what I said. I said no amp was mentioned. And none is. While Bane notes his ability to use the force is diminished.

It doesn't need to be he is still using the force in an area of a high concentration of dark side energies. We've been through this all before, Bane can't replicate that feat or any of his other ones without a nexus present.

Carthage Felucia is not a nexus it is simply teeming with life which Shaak Ti could control.

Felucia is a Dark Side Nexus, lol.

After her death yes.

Originally posted by carthage
He was also amped by the darkside energies of the stone prison when he ripped the durasteel door off its doors.


-Dynasty of Evil

Wait, are you fvcking kidding me? The Stone Prison too!?

Jesus, Bane sucks. He literally has no off-nexus feats now.



Nah.

The dark side was strong on Felucia... And Shaak Ti was a beacon in that darkness.

-TFU Comic

Ah yes you are correct, people love to ignore that fact when 'debating' Shaak Ti however, dismissing her feats as if they are on a Light Side nexus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wait, are you fvcking kidding me? The Stone Prison too!?

Jesus, Bane sucks. He literally has no off-nexus feats now.
Except it's pretty much stated that Bane's circumstance in the Stone prison was disadvantageous.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except it's pretty much stated that Bane's circumstance in the Stone prison was disadvantageous.

Except that unless you have proof that Bane's ability to draw on the force was compromised by drugs you have no case. Its no coincidence Bane needs a nexus for 95% of his feats. Bane was amped for all of his feats in that area as well

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ah yes you are correct, people love to ignore that fact when 'debating' Shaak Ti however, dismissing her feats as if they are on a Light Side nexus.

I can't speak for anyone else's conversations with you, but I brought up the fact that she was amped as well. It can't and shouldn't be escaped, and only makes Galen look better he was able to defeat her. She is still more skilled than Bane even without her showing on Felucia.

@Seleniel @Newguy1

"The remaining five guards scrambled to their feet, grabbing for their weapons. Bane lashed out with the Force. The fury of his attack was muted by the last lingering effects of the drugs in his system, but it was still strong enough to knock them all to the floor and send the table flying into the wall, where it cracked in half."

"Whatever the explanation, Bane knew one thing for certain: He didn't want to face Zannah right now. Not while he was still recovering from the toxins Serra had used to render him helpless, and certainly not without his lightsaber."

"The last dregs of the chemicals would simply have to break down naturally over time. Until then he would be at less than full strength. A fraction slower in thoughts and actions, less adept at wielding the power of the Force. And he was still without his lightsaber."

These quotes confirm:
1. Bane's ability with the force was diminished to an extent
2. Bane was not at full strength.

If Bane was beneath his full strength, then the nexus argument is particularly invalid here because Bane's disadvantages more than compensate for it.

Obviously the drugs didn't have that big effect to counteract a nexus amp seeing as he still was able to draw on the energy to blow open a door, run multi levels of the prison, duel Darth Zannah, etc. And your last argument is speculative, seeing as he was still relying on the energies to begin with for feats that he couldn't otherwise achieve. Not to mention the fact that Bane from his inception needs nexuses to accomplish just about anything



But still not diminished enough to perform the aforementioned feats. Obviously they hindered him somewhat, but the nexus more then made up for it.



The first part of this final statement is your opinion solely. Bane "At full strength" off nexus has only broken a guys spine, broken tents, broken boxes, and shattered peoples spines. Bane's "disadvantages" were minor in comparison to the nexus that allowed him to achieve the aforementioned feats.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The dark side was strong on Felucia... And Shaak Ti was a beacon in that darkness.

-TFU Comic The novel contradicts this, sort of. The dark wasn't strong with Felucia by the time Galen fought Ti since she had tilted it more towards the light, which apparently weakened Galen to some degree.

It's a nice effort, really, but those quotes really don't prove your point. The fact that the power of his attack was offset by the drugs means that they were hindering him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it counterbalances the nexus--it just means it would have been stronger were he not drugged. Likewise, the nexus would give him no advantage over Zannah, whilst the drugs still hinder him. Does this mean that Bane was still operating above-average despite the effects of the toxins? Not necessarily, but the fact of the matter is that the evidence doesn't rule out the possibility either.

I'm honestly fairly disappointed at this revelation. Now practically all of Bane's notable feats are impossible to critically analyze due to multiple conditions that may impede or improve upon his normal capabilities to an unknown degree. I can't really say for sure that I know where to rank him now.

With regards to skill Ti really should take this, Bane hasn't beat anyone apart from Sirak without orbalisks or a nexus at his aid (even fighting Sirak he was still amped). Obviously, no one is going/should dispute Marek is more skilled than Sirak- and while both being nexus feats, Marek would pose a greater challenge than a mere trainee.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's a nice effort, really, but those quotes really don't prove your point. The fact that the power of his attack was offset by the drugs means that they were hindering him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it counterbalances the nexus--it just means it would have been stronger were he not drugged. Likewise, the nexus would give him no advantage over Zannah, whilst the drugs still hinder him. Does this mean that Bane was still operating above-average despite the effects of the toxins? Not necessarily, but the fact of the matter is that the evidence doesn't rule out the possibility either.

I'm honestly fairly disappointed at this revelation. Now practically all of Bane's notable feats are impossible to critically analyze due to multiple conditions that may impede or improve upon his normal capabilities to an unknown degree. I can't really say for sure that I know where to rank him now.

The text clearly and explicitly states that Bane is at less than his full strength. If he's at less than his full strength, he's not being amped beyond his full strength.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The text clearly and explicitly states that Bane is at less than his full strength. If he's at less than his full strength, he's not being amped beyond his full strength.

Which is more then made up for by the latent energies of the prison, which you conveniently ignore. Also his feats off nexus i,e on Ambria/Ruusan don't match his showings in the prison as well, he was amped and the drugs only had minor issues which is all that the quotes you showed proved.

The force round of the fight can probably be an even split. Telekinetically the two are pretty close, Bane's lightning isn't adding anything to his advantages.

Skill wise I think as mentioned Ti takes sabers.

I already addressed this.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's a nice effort, really, but those quotes really don't prove your point. The fact that the power of his attack was offset by the drugs means that they were hindering him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it counterbalances the nexus--it just means it would have been stronger were he not drugged. Likewise, the nexus would give him no advantage over Zannah, whilst the drugs still hinder him. Does this mean that Bane was still operating above-average despite the effects of the toxins? Not necessarily, but the fact of the matter is that the evidence doesn't rule out the possibility either.

I'm honestly fairly disappointed at this revelation. Now practically all of Bane's notable feats are impossible to critically analyze due to multiple conditions that may impede or improve upon his normal capabilities to an unknown degree. I can't really say for sure that I know where to rank him now.

So are we actually going to discuss who wins in a duel/all out match? Or are we going to keep discussing the tired nexus debate which doesn't favor Bane?

That same issue always kills any discussion in any assessment of Bane's skill, and it makes a thread nearly impossible to have.

Most controversial debates wind up dominating threads with included characters, sadly. That said, it's those same questions that are debated that the thread ultimately boils down to, so it's really inevitable.

It shouldn't be controversial when you weigh their feats and showings, it truly comes down to who has the superior showings. I'd like to believe that given the circumstances known to all posters due to constant conversation about Bane/associated characters- that most people would be aware of the nature of his showings.

With Ti there are quite a lot of factors for her own showings as well, it all boils down to who has the superior ones. I believe Ti does at least.

To be honest, you're right; Ti is another one that's hard to gauge for the same reason. The whole mumbo jumbo with Felucia is really a huge contradictory mess, after all.

Well simply weighing both feats Galen at that point is a better duelist than Sirak or Kas'im, she has the accolades which Kas'im lacks, she's faster and at least comparably powerful to Bane. There isn't much Bane can do with telekinesis if she can directly TK Starkiller (who is more powerful than Bane).

I'd give her a slight majority if nothing more.

Originally posted by ILS
The novel contradicts this, sort of. The dark wasn't strong with Felucia by the time Galen fought Ti since she had tilted it more towards the light, which apparently weakened Galen to some degree.

Do you still not understand what this means? Either way Shaak Ti has one of the best alter environment feats in the lore and she was doing this passively whilst fighting him.

Oh and yes Starkiller could not amp himself with the Dark Side, that doesn't make her feats any less impressive, infact her feat is more impressive because she was passively suppressing the Dark Side in the planet.

For sixteen years she used Alter Environment to keep the planet from becoming a Dark Side nexus, including using her Togruta abilities to keep the Felucian Shamans in the Light as well.

Honestly how people can use this as some form of supporting logic to call what she did a nexus amp is frankly fallacious.

All of this whilst cunningly employing Dun Moch to keep him off balance and using her Force Augmentation to overwhelm him in both strength and speed.

So she was actively using Alter Environment, passively, to suppress the dark side on Felucia?

Source bro?

What exactly do you mean by her "Togruta abilities" Ancient?

Shaak Ti combines Plant Surge and Consular Sato in a variation of Alter Environment against Marek in the comic book of TFU, not to mention this:

"The world of Felucia is tied intimately to the Living Force, and as such the flora and fauna, including the Felucian Shamans can be influenced by agents strong in the Force, Light or Dark." - TFU CG

Carthage, Togrutans have a natural connection to plant life.

I think Ti's natural ability to commune with the wildlife may have contributed more to her having sway over the population instead of actively subjecting it to her rule, which is what people have been arguing recently. The Felucians, sarlacc and environment in general obviously just.. liked.. Shaak Ti and her influence, for a lack of a better word. She wasn't mind controlling them or anything.

So yeah, Ti would be benefiting from the light-side environment.

Fun facts:

Rahm Kota is a Juyo master.

Maris Brood is a Jar-kai/Niman master.

Kazdan Paratus is a Shien master.

Shaak Ti is a Battle Meditation practitioner.

All from the The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide.

I didn't know Kazdan even used lightsaber forms lol.

ILS the issue I have is that everyone and their grandmother calls Felucia a Force Nexus, it isn't, it is just strongly influenced by the Living Force. I'll give an e-cookiee to anyone who finds a statement calling Felucia a nexus.

Well, not a nexus, just a planet strong in the Force. And it's ever so slight dips toward either light or dark seem to have a slight effect on Force Users. Maybe not much though.

Nexus is turning into a sort of blanket term for anywhere strong in the Force.

Yet repeatedly this is used as an excuse to dismiss Ti's kinetite feat and her performance against Galen Marek.

I am not accusing you of this but people in general.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I already addressed this.

No you didn't. You say it doesn't necessarily counterbalance the nexus, but it clearly does for the reasons Dmb said. The text literally says he's at less than full strength. If he's at less than full strength, then he's not operating above his full strength (duh). Nothing you said addresses that. The text explicitly says that you are wrong.

Furthermore, Bane notes that he's weaker and less adept even after purging most of the drugs. Which means that it would have affected him far more beforehand during his escape whilst he's still influenced by the full effects, when these feats take place.

Why are people bringing up this whole nexus thing to begin with? OP clearly says no nexus/amp feats.

Why are nexuses ever brought up? To shit on Bane, obviously. We're arguing about whether it invalidates one of his feats. It doesn't, because he's explicitly weaker than normal in the scene as directly stated in the novel.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why are people bringing up this whole nexus thing to begin with? OP clearly says no nexus/amp feats.

Because people are trying to use said nexus/amp feats as if they weren't such.

Shaak Ti uses Kinetite to overwhelm Bane's orbalisk armor and incapacitate him.

The only real problem with the skepticism about nexus feats is if one selectively applies the standard. (e.g., Luke's nexus feats don't count but Bane's do.)

I honestly don't care what planet Luke's feats took place on.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I honestly don't care what planet Luke's feats took place on.

Cool.

Either way, though, it's perfectly fair to disregard nexus feats. That goes for more than just Bane. Vitiate, Sidious, Luke, Anakin, etc. and so forth.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why are nexuses ever brought up? To shit on Bane, obviously. We're arguing about whether it invalidates one of his feats. It doesn't, because he's explicitly weaker than normal in the scene as directly stated in the novel.

Which wasn already made up for by the nexus Bane used, and the drugs obviously did nothing as he was able to accomplish those feats

Originally posted by carthage
Which wasn already made up for by the nexus Bane used, and the drugs obviously did nothing as he was able to accomplish those feats Reported

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cool.

Either way, though, it's perfectly fair to disregard nexus feats. That goes for more than just Bane. Vitiate, Sidious, Luke, Anakin, etc. and so forth.

bump

Shaak Ti =/> Galen Marek > Darth Bane.